November 14, 2025 • 28 mins
We are living in a time when crime does not stop at the courtroom. It continues in the headline, on social media, and in the public’s imagination.
This week on Crime Roundup, Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer discuss the laws that prevent offenders from profiting off their crimes and why cases like Bryan Kohberger’s continue to test those boundaries.
They talk about the world of murderabilia and the broader culture that turns high-profile cases into collectibles and conversation.
They also examine an ongoing beheading case involving a former adult film actress that has drawn national attention, plus several other stories of interest this week.
Highlights:
• (0:00) Welcome to Crime Roundup with Sheryl McCollum and Joshua Schiffer
• (2:45) The Slayer Statute and whether Bryan Kohberger could profit from notoriety
• (7:45) Murderabilia and prison fan culture
• (10:30) The beheading case involving a former adult film actress and her withdrawn plea
• (13:45) Diddy’s prison hooch and how inmates make alcohol behind bars
• (18:00) Sports betting and game-fixing concerns across leagues
• (19:30) Kim Kardashian’s justice reform work and bar exam attempts
• (23:30) Sheryl’s 2023 National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame recognition and final
reflections
Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades.
Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and a fearless advocate for accountability.
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, a forensic and crime scene expert for "Crime Stories with Nancy Grace," and co-author of the textbook, "ColdCase: Pathways to Justice."
She is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national collaboration that advances techniques for solving cold cases and assists families and law enforcement with unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnappings.
Want more from Sheryl?
Catch her every week on the "Zone 7" podcast, where she hosts the main series on Wednesdays, "Pathology with Dr. Priya" on Mondays, and "Crime Roundup" each Friday alongside Joshua Schiffer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Joshua Schiffer. I am so happy to talk to you.
We have much to celebrate. One you are back in
the saddle, so to speak, and two our dynamic just
a gem. He's just a joy of a producer and
(00:30):
editor and friend. Max has become an uncle. Nozzles here,
I mean salute. There's nothing better. I mean when you
become an aunt or an uncle. I think the only
thing second from what I have heard, is being a grandparent,
because you just get to love them, play with them,
(00:51):
give them back, bring them stuff they're not supposed to have,
tell them things ain't supposed to hear, dote on them,
tell them stories about their parents that they did and
always behaved. You know, it's just the best time.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I really so. My brother had kids about eleven twelve
years before I did, and I really was down having
kids when he had it. It was the best feeling
because you know, there were just two boys, and the
older boy started bringing home babies and they were so amazed,
like I'd never really been exposed to babies. It was
(01:26):
so amazing. And really, my uncle relationship with my nieces
and nephew just amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Agreed, And let me tell you that little old baby
June is a living doll. Baby. She is so beautiful.
So congratulations mom and dad, but mostly Uncle Max. So listen, now,
we have had quite a two week period of time
where I've been traveling, You've been traveling. I've been at
(01:56):
the airport during the shutdown.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, there was. My original joke was it's good to
be seen, because for a minute there it kind of
was touching. Goey. I ended up going out to the
woods because, you know, my midlife crisis is I'm gonna
turn half redneck. I'm gonna go and embrace my roots.
So I go out in the woods to deer watch,
(02:22):
which I suck at because I'm very bad at actually
the deer part and the hunting. I am awesome at
sitting in the woods with some binoculars and the Internet
and just chilling out because it's enforced silence, which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
It is amazing, It is amazing. I gotta just jump
right into one thing. Will you tell everybody what the
slayer statute is?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh? Okay. So it just so happens that the economy
rewards purveyors of salacious and interesting media, such as newspaper articles, movies,
television shows, mini series, the grand theatrical Hollywood blockbuster. And
(03:11):
what turns out is that nefarious agents in media will
go out and talk to the people who have been
convicted of committing some of the worst cases in American history.
And what we had were some big media hits, and
everybody kind of starts scratching our heads, going, hey, that
(03:32):
person's in prison for life or on death row. Let's
not ensure they get a lot of money for doing this,
because that's a sick, twisted and anti just kind of situation,
and we get to regulate that. So they regulated it
with what are called slayer statutes. And I believe virtually
(03:52):
every jurisdiction I know of has one version or another,
and it prohibits the committer of certain acts from profiting.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So it's like the son of Sam law yep.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And really, Cheryl goes out there on her long dreamed
of zombie baby eating, slave, trading drug and every horrible
fraud crime in the universe. She should not be able
to make seventeen million dollars selling a book.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's right. And if somebody says, okay, well, you know,
this school shooter killed this many people, so the person
that out does him should not get a movie.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
There is a very good societal justification for regulating certain behaviors,
such as promoting copycatism, letting people use evil to profit,
except under circumstances where someone's decided it's really not that
evil a llah smoking things like that, like it really
(04:55):
it's this is the kind of law where morals and
values really get caught up, which is tough if you
think about it, because really, you wake up and you're
just a regular person going through life, and you're not
exposed to some horrific crime and then immediate thing, why
would you ever think about that? Why would that ever
be a law where you were like, whoa, we better
prohibit people from committing crimes in it, but we needed it. Well,
(05:22):
it is in many ways. But one of the things
that I remind people of perpetually is the First Amendment.
There's a litigation history, and freedom of speech is freedom
of speech. There's a whole lot of speech that can
be regulated, and regulating that speech has to follow extraordinarily specific,
(05:44):
bright line rules. Most of the time they're bright line,
but there are distinct areas where what you think is
free speech is anything but the big one being commercial speech,
and you are absolutely allowed to regulate commercial speech. And bluntly,
(06:06):
that's what the Slayer statutes really are an effect of,
is regulation of that commercial speech.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
How did this play a factor with Coburger, Well.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You know, Coburger has money of various forms, and right
now with Coburger, it's how is he spending the money
that he receives, where is the money coming from, where
is it going to be? And no one knows exactly
what his plan is. And he has certain rights to
confidential discussions. You know, you lose a lot of rights
(06:38):
when you go to prison for ever and ever and
ever and ever as he deserves, but you still do
have the ability to have some kind of conversations. You've
got the freedom to, you know, do an act in
certain ways, including sell things and instruct people on the
outside to do lawful things such as discuss selling your story,
sit for interviews. Now are there's some regulations on it.
(07:03):
They're not going to just let a TV group waltz
on into a prison. If you've ever seen one of
those shows that there's an enormous amount of work that
goes into getting access to inmates, and some inmates have
very strict requirements about things you can and cannot talk about.
But someone like Coburger, if he was of the want,
(07:25):
could literally start a podcast. He could profit significantly through
some sort of something. Remember where America has three hundred
and seventy million people. If one percent of people are crazy,
that's millions of crazy people.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
That's right. And you know, it's like that that murderabilia, No.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
The glorification of glorification, the idea that there are collectors
of serial killer memorabilia, there's most of me goes that
is absolutely harmless. It is celebrating pop culture. Josh, do
not be concerned. And then there's the little partam It's like, no,
(08:11):
there's a percentage of those people that are on the
far extreme on their spectrum of whatever, and they're probably
not collecting this for the good natured historical for the
culture reasons. There's some wacky pups out there.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And you know, there's some really twisted people in prison
that are selling art and different things that these people
want to be close to them, they want a part
of them.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You want to get married, go commit a high profile murder.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, facts, man, I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
A single guy forty nine. I think you know I'm
not Bachelor of the universe. But come on here, I'm
not in prison, and these guys get it hot like hard.
I have no doubt that Coburger should he want to
marry Mary's. There's someone out there that just has the
(09:08):
fascination and has some belief of love. And really, who
am I to judge? Every part of creation is deserving
of love. If I'm going to be a good god,
believe in person. You believe that love is possible, and
I'm sure I will withhold my judgment of him. He will,
he will be judged. But yeah, going to prison shouldn't
(09:33):
mean you're never allowed to love.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
That's true. Well, maybe that's another show we should pitch.
Slayer weddings, prison dating.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, you know there's like there's websites and stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Look, I ain't even gonna lie. If there was a
Slayer wedding where it showed how they met, I would
watch it. I would call you while I watched it.
We would discuss it before, during, and after, like a
football game.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
As far as I'm concerned, culture has jumped the sh
around the time we developed the term jump the shark,
And really that might have been the market because there's
stuff happening now where you know, you just stand there
and you shake it and you're like, really, that's three
hundred and seventy million people. Well, I guess it took
that many before someone would do that, because that's completely inexplicable.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
But you know, talking about crazy headlines now, I want
you to weigh in on this. As a high profile
defense attorney. The headline all I saw was ex porn
star the head husband so she could be with his son.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, it's yeah, and it's insane. She's a six foot
four former adult actress, so man, it's out there under
a couple of different names. Apparently has has exited that
that industry and done other things involving getting married to
(11:03):
this gentleman and having two kids, young kids preteen I
believe daughters, and then as some sort of marriage of convenience,
potentially she ends up divorcing the husband and marrying or
getting with his son from a prior relationship who is
(11:28):
of adult age. So the son was his own step brother, stepfather.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
She's his stepmother wife.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, there you go, that's much more accurate. She is
his stepmother wife, which just gives me the hebgb's saying it,
because that that that's that's that's creepy.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Because he may be of age now, but he wasn't
always when she knew when.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, but I don't know you who knows? And I yeah,
you're just getting into some parts of America where I'm like, man,
never been there.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
But you're talking about a behead and I I know.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And I'm just like, man, that's totally But we come
from the Greeks and the Romans and they did some stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, one way to put that edical stories.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I remember reading those and be like, any what, huh huh.
Really all the good stories have been written allegedly, you know,
there was that room with the monkeys and the typewriters.
So yeah, she ends up beheaded and it's like, I'm beheaded.
There's a Japanese grandmother on the other side. Uh that
(12:48):
Their katanas involved decapitating someone. Show you've you've you've worked.
But it's not like, oh, look, let's just go decapitates. No,
it's an effort.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It is effort. Yeah, and it's gruesome and it's bloody
and it's horrific. And that's what I'm saying. You know,
she took a plea deal and then changed her mind.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well and that's where it gets so wild. She allegedly
decapitates him, takes the head, drives it home across town,
and then deposits it in the trash. So, considering all
of the vast evidence against her, she pled guilty, which
you know, that's a pretty reasonable thing to do. She
was offered I think, fifteen years, which is a lot,
(13:34):
But you decapitated someone. She then withdrew that in his
on trial right now, and it just it makes you
shake your head sometime.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I want to also end on something that I think
is potentially pretty positive, at least that's the way I
see it.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So we're not going to do the Diddy drinking toilet wine.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Story, Okay, I think we have to.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now, we're going to do the story one hundred percent share.
I wasn't gonna let you speak from that, Cheryl. Is
there a history of people incarcerated being real creative with
the making of libations?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
There is, and they almost always involve a toilet, a
prison toilet.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
How would our innocent viewers create some pruno should they
want to?
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Well, I mean there's several ways. You know, you're going
to store your bread and you're going to take an
orange if you can get your hand on it. You're
even going to take some packs of ketch Up. When
you open Ketchup, you know that little clear liquid that
comes out, that's pure alcohol honey. So you can get
real creative and you can ferment just about anything. And
(14:51):
one way to keep it nice and cold and that
a perfect temperature is in the toilet.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And really it's the biggest cleanest water tight vessel available
in most cells. It certainly is, especially when you about
plastic bag.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Listen, Thanksgivings coming up. If y'all want to make a
bag of hooge, I mean, this is the time to
do it and serve it to your family, let them
do a taste test.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
My brother for years did psychological work in prisons, and
I've been to a zillion different facilities, so we would
talk about the different varieties. And inmates are the most
creative people in the world. I swear, if we put
them to work, you're in cancer, it'd be done. They
are the most creative people, endless time, endless creativity. They
(15:38):
will actually make stuff that I've been told taste not
that bad by literally taking the fruit, taking your your
ketchup packets or your sugar packet, wherever you can.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Get your sugar and they can get their hands on
skittle y'all.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh yeah, oh you make skittle wine, you make No
one don't want chocolate. That's not that kind of sugar,
but any kind of way, think about a fruit sugar
or a refined sugar. You basically just need to feed
that to some yeast and have a host for it
that doesn't turn poisonous. And you can lightly ferment just
(16:14):
about anything, and you can make some real powerful which
if you put some additional science and time and space
on it. Where we're not talking about your county jails
with people moving in and out. We're talking about long
term storage for inmates where some of these sales ain't
getting checked weekly or monthly because this is you know,
(16:36):
medium security wherever. And there's you know, one one to
two guards for two ondred guys.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And Josh, let's tell them the good news. The wine
in there is about fourteen percent. Yeah, yeah, So you
enjoy your little seven to nine percent wine.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
It'll get you there. And really you're that board and
you want to who's scout that mint that they will
it'll do you. And so Diddy got caught with some
toilet wine, which I'm telling you I call it right now.
If he serves the time, if he gets clemency, did
he walks out reborn, remarketed and makes extra money talking
(17:18):
about the slayer statute makes more money walking out of prison.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, there's a president for it. Martha Stewart made more money.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You know. I have the hots for Martha, totally willing
to admit that she is universe. She is beautiful and
brilliant and I find her incredible. But yeah, she took that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
She ain't an idiot.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
She was a stockbroker before she was Martha Stewart Like.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
She's right, that's right, ha ha.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I'm a homemaker now that Lee is a vicious ninja
of brilliance.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And I don't remember the money you made, but it's
like she went in she was worth ten million, she
came out she's worth thirty four million.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Talk about something we should have talked about. Crime wise, Hey, Cheryl,
here's one hundred million dollars. Why don't you go risk
it for say, five grand and fix a game?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh my word, those gambling stories over the last two
weeks are out of control. I am telling you I
and anytime you've got humanity and money. You're gonna have crookery,
you just don't. And that's there's people in the world
that you can have lots of great people and someone's
(18:36):
going to run. That is apparently what's happened in baseball.
That is apparently what's been happening in basketball. A bunch
of them high stakes poker games that we're getting completely rigged,
and a lot of people I know have given up
the game of poker because it's just so cheatery these days.
Sports betting I think needs some serious discussion because these
(19:00):
prop bets, these super small side bets that are very fast,
that don't have huge market share, so easy to manipulate.
And that's where we're getting is how's this economy gonna
work out? Because they can track the bets. They're businesses
that literally track suspicious activity on betting lines. That gets
(19:24):
over to a whole thing at UFC where if you
really want to get deep, go look up UFC and
fixing and what's going on with that, because that then
gets into presidential politics.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's the truth. But listen, I think that we should
end on a positive note and I want to brag
on somebody and if you had told me twenty years
ago I would be bragging on this person for this reason.
I might have thought you were out of your mind.
But I want to brag on Kim Kardashian. And here's why.
(19:58):
She's beautiful and she's rich, and she's famous, and she
could spend every day of her life driving around in
some fabulous convertible, sitting next to some fabulous swimming pool,
dressing and going to some fabulous party. But she went
to law school and then she studied for the bar,
(20:20):
and she sat for the bar. Now she didn't pass it.
She took it again, she didn't pass it, and she's
getting dragged. But let me tell y'all something. I ain't
spent narry a day in law school, but I have
heard what one l is all about. I've heard what
(20:40):
that bar exam can do to you. There are people
that have PTSD over it today.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
There's a reason that a third of people drop out
because it's a really unenjoyable time. It's not and no
one's like, oh man, no, it's no, it's terrible, Like
they's terrible, Like no, no, no, it's horrible. We drive
a third out over the here're.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Really smart people that feel that way, And that's why
I thinks a.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Lot of people don't understand even be the smart guy
person in this school or that's law school was the
time where you're for me, everybody was just as smart
and accomplished and could get through, and you're like, Okay,
this is serious, this is different.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
This is a very self But she wants to help people.
She wants to help people that quite possibly could be
wrongly convicted. I say, keep going, take it again, honey,
do anything you can do to help people. If that's
what she is putting herself through, I admire it.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I love the fact that she has failed and comes
back on something that she has personal meaning to. She
has used her celebrity in a few different occasions on
some public justice issues that I think are really important.
And she comes from the Jitimately, the Kardashian name was
originally a famous lawyer. You know, her father was on
(22:05):
the OJAT. People don't remember that, that's.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Right, Robert Kardashian.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Honey. So it's not like she's just some person. Oh,
I'm just gonna know, she's put a lot of thought
and effort. The bar in California is about the hardest
bar in the nation. It is three days long. It
doesn't have reciprocity, but it sucks. It's its own thing.
You'll see a similar bar in say Florida. They're very protective.
(22:32):
South Carolina is very protective, but California has a hard bar.
And I give her a lot of props in kudos
for the bravery of standing up and failing publicly in
an intellectual endeavor and then going back and trying again,
because that's the perseverance that really is character.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I think it says a lot about her because I'm
gonna tell you, we got a powerball in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Three hundred million? If that thing hits the McCollum, I
will not be going to law school, hear me.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Now, The joke with my partner and I is one
day is going to just show up and the name's
going to be scratched off the wall. And that's what
it's got. And it's what happened to Deka. And the
question is is it Doug or is it me that
gets to the doorscraper first because the other one gets
(23:24):
And then on a high note and celebrating people, I
saw that beautiful ring that you were wearing.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Thank you, Yeah, about.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That honor that I didn't know about in.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Advance, y'all. So in twenty twenty three, I was inducted
into the National Law Enforcement Officer Hall of Fame, and
our rings just came in. So while I was in Ohio,
they officially, you know, gave me my ring.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So to youle Style, it's so cool, and you're such
a good representative for the positivity that law enforcement needs
and deserves because we spend so much time yelling about
the worst, but law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Who do you call just just who do you call?
The most grizzled anti state? Defense attorneys love cops? Why
to know what? We know? How valuable law enforcement is.
And you won't find bigger defenders of law enforcement when
it comes to lawyers in general than criminal criminal lawyers
(24:40):
because we've all seen the good they do. And we
may complain, right, yeah really, And it's it's team America.
It's team We've got to have the best society we can.
It will never be perfect, but the idea is you
keep fighting, and sometimes you're going to fight this way,
(25:01):
then you're going to grow up, no new chapter. You're
gonna fight for a better America that way. Then you're
going to grow up new chapter. Then you're gonna fight
for better America that way, and what your America is
it changes over time. Better America at nineteen different from thirty,
way different than fifty one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
But I appreciate you mentioned it, and I tell you
it was a great honor in twenty twenty three, but
that rings pretty slick.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So it's awesome, and you are so well deserved.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, I appreciate you, sugar, But again, I ain't done
none of it by myself. I've had all the love
and support and kindness and good luck frankly that anybody
could have. And I don't in any way not try
to put a spotlight on it. And I tell rookies
all the time, you need to work hard, you need
(25:52):
to prepare, you need to train, but don't you look
that gift horse in the mouth. That luck can catapult
your career. And you know, I was just in an
elevator during a major trial. It was a homicide trial,
and I walked in. The doors open, and I walked
into the elevator and there were two old guards that
(26:13):
I recognized immediately, both defense attorneys. I hadn't seen him
in years and years. There was a rookie on there.
He could not have been more than twenty four or
twenty five. He stayed just face down in his phone,
and I thought to myself, there's one hundred years experience
on this elevator. Talk to somebody, Introduce yourself to somebody,
(26:35):
tell them where you're going. Are you testifying? Do you
need some support, do you need a pat on the back?
Do you need advice? And you know, we went up
floors and had the doors open, and he just walked off,
and I thought to myself, buddy, you just missed such
an opportunity. And you know, that's just what I try
(26:58):
to tell people. Talk to lunch, go hang out at
the bar, do something.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
The lack of personal interaction is one of those developments
that I've talked to you about that that's scarce. I
know it.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
He never even looked up.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And listen, I remember the eighties like it wasn't that
long ago. And then you think about, man, the eighties
were forty years. What's forty years from twenty sixty five?
It then time moves. Time moves fast. People.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Cheryl, I love you, I love it, I love you,
and I'm thrilled to talk to you. And I cannot wait.
We're gonna get together soon because y'all, yeah, we got
some plans to make, y'all, y'all will be in on
it when it's time.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Big twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
All right, I'm gonna let you send us out.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I'm gonna send today by just asking everybody to go
out there and love some body actively, like, be proactive
with love, even if that person is you, because everybody
deserves love and affection and care. Because you're an important
part of this universe, whether you're big or small, whether
(28:16):
you think you are important or not, I promise you
you matter more to people than you would ever imagine.
And bless every day and enjoy that journey. If you're
stuck somewhere, make the best about being stuck somewhere.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
That was perfect.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Boom boom,
Joshua Schiffer. I am so happy to talk to you.
We have much to celebrate. One you are back in
the saddle, so to speak, and two our dynamic just
a gem. He's just a joy of a producer and
(00:30):
editor and friend. Max has become an uncle. Nozzles here,
I mean salute. There's nothing better. I mean when you
become an aunt or an uncle. I think the only
thing second from what I have heard, is being a grandparent,
because you just get to love them, play with them,
(00:51):
give them back, bring them stuff they're not supposed to have,
tell them things ain't supposed to hear, dote on them,
tell them stories about their parents that they did and
always behaved. You know, it's just the best time.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I really so. My brother had kids about eleven twelve
years before I did, and I really was down having
kids when he had it. It was the best feeling
because you know, there were just two boys, and the
older boy started bringing home babies and they were so amazed,
like I'd never really been exposed to babies. It was
(01:26):
so amazing. And really, my uncle relationship with my nieces
and nephew just amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Agreed, And let me tell you that little old baby
June is a living doll. Baby. She is so beautiful.
So congratulations mom and dad, but mostly Uncle Max. So listen, now,
we have had quite a two week period of time
where I've been traveling, You've been traveling. I've been at
(01:56):
the airport during the shutdown.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, there was. My original joke was it's good to
be seen, because for a minute there it kind of
was touching. Goey. I ended up going out to the
woods because, you know, my midlife crisis is I'm gonna
turn half redneck. I'm gonna go and embrace my roots.
So I go out in the woods to deer watch,
(02:22):
which I suck at because I'm very bad at actually
the deer part and the hunting. I am awesome at
sitting in the woods with some binoculars and the Internet
and just chilling out because it's enforced silence, which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
It is amazing, It is amazing. I gotta just jump
right into one thing. Will you tell everybody what the
slayer statute is?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh? Okay. So it just so happens that the economy
rewards purveyors of salacious and interesting media, such as newspaper articles, movies,
television shows, mini series, the grand theatrical Hollywood blockbuster. And
(03:11):
what turns out is that nefarious agents in media will
go out and talk to the people who have been
convicted of committing some of the worst cases in American history.
And what we had were some big media hits, and
everybody kind of starts scratching our heads, going, hey, that
(03:32):
person's in prison for life or on death row. Let's
not ensure they get a lot of money for doing this,
because that's a sick, twisted and anti just kind of situation,
and we get to regulate that. So they regulated it
with what are called slayer statutes. And I believe virtually
(03:52):
every jurisdiction I know of has one version or another,
and it prohibits the committer of certain acts from profiting.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So it's like the son of Sam law yep.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And really, Cheryl goes out there on her long dreamed
of zombie baby eating, slave, trading drug and every horrible
fraud crime in the universe. She should not be able
to make seventeen million dollars selling a book.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's right. And if somebody says, okay, well, you know,
this school shooter killed this many people, so the person
that out does him should not get a movie.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
There is a very good societal justification for regulating certain behaviors,
such as promoting copycatism, letting people use evil to profit,
except under circumstances where someone's decided it's really not that
evil a llah smoking things like that, like it really
(04:55):
it's this is the kind of law where morals and
values really get caught up, which is tough if you
think about it, because really, you wake up and you're
just a regular person going through life, and you're not
exposed to some horrific crime and then immediate thing, why
would you ever think about that? Why would that ever
be a law where you were like, whoa, we better
prohibit people from committing crimes in it, but we needed it. Well,
(05:22):
it is in many ways. But one of the things
that I remind people of perpetually is the First Amendment.
There's a litigation history, and freedom of speech is freedom
of speech. There's a whole lot of speech that can
be regulated, and regulating that speech has to follow extraordinarily specific,
(05:44):
bright line rules. Most of the time they're bright line,
but there are distinct areas where what you think is
free speech is anything but the big one being commercial speech,
and you are absolutely allowed to regulate commercial speech. And bluntly,
(06:06):
that's what the Slayer statutes really are an effect of,
is regulation of that commercial speech.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
How did this play a factor with Coburger, Well.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You know, Coburger has money of various forms, and right
now with Coburger, it's how is he spending the money
that he receives, where is the money coming from, where
is it going to be? And no one knows exactly
what his plan is. And he has certain rights to
confidential discussions. You know, you lose a lot of rights
(06:38):
when you go to prison for ever and ever and
ever and ever as he deserves, but you still do
have the ability to have some kind of conversations. You've
got the freedom to, you know, do an act in
certain ways, including sell things and instruct people on the
outside to do lawful things such as discuss selling your story,
sit for interviews. Now are there's some regulations on it.
(07:03):
They're not going to just let a TV group waltz
on into a prison. If you've ever seen one of
those shows that there's an enormous amount of work that
goes into getting access to inmates, and some inmates have
very strict requirements about things you can and cannot talk about.
But someone like Coburger, if he was of the want,
(07:25):
could literally start a podcast. He could profit significantly through
some sort of something. Remember where America has three hundred
and seventy million people. If one percent of people are crazy,
that's millions of crazy people.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
That's right. And you know, it's like that that murderabilia, No.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
The glorification of glorification, the idea that there are collectors
of serial killer memorabilia, there's most of me goes that
is absolutely harmless. It is celebrating pop culture. Josh, do
not be concerned. And then there's the little partam It's like, no,
(08:11):
there's a percentage of those people that are on the
far extreme on their spectrum of whatever, and they're probably
not collecting this for the good natured historical for the
culture reasons. There's some wacky pups out there.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And you know, there's some really twisted people in prison
that are selling art and different things that these people
want to be close to them, they want a part
of them.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You want to get married, go commit a high profile murder.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, facts, man, I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
A single guy forty nine. I think you know I'm
not Bachelor of the universe. But come on here, I'm
not in prison, and these guys get it hot like hard.
I have no doubt that Coburger should he want to
marry Mary's. There's someone out there that just has the
(09:08):
fascination and has some belief of love. And really, who
am I to judge? Every part of creation is deserving
of love. If I'm going to be a good god,
believe in person. You believe that love is possible, and
I'm sure I will withhold my judgment of him. He will,
he will be judged. But yeah, going to prison shouldn't
(09:33):
mean you're never allowed to love.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
That's true. Well, maybe that's another show we should pitch.
Slayer weddings, prison dating.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, you know there's like there's websites and stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Look, I ain't even gonna lie. If there was a
Slayer wedding where it showed how they met, I would
watch it. I would call you while I watched it.
We would discuss it before, during, and after, like a
football game.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
As far as I'm concerned, culture has jumped the sh
around the time we developed the term jump the shark,
And really that might have been the market because there's
stuff happening now where you know, you just stand there
and you shake it and you're like, really, that's three
hundred and seventy million people. Well, I guess it took
that many before someone would do that, because that's completely inexplicable.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
But you know, talking about crazy headlines now, I want
you to weigh in on this. As a high profile
defense attorney. The headline all I saw was ex porn
star the head husband so she could be with his son.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, it's yeah, and it's insane. She's a six foot
four former adult actress, so man, it's out there under
a couple of different names. Apparently has has exited that
that industry and done other things involving getting married to
(11:03):
this gentleman and having two kids, young kids preteen I
believe daughters, and then as some sort of marriage of convenience,
potentially she ends up divorcing the husband and marrying or
getting with his son from a prior relationship who is
(11:28):
of adult age. So the son was his own step brother, stepfather.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
She's his stepmother wife.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, there you go, that's much more accurate. She is
his stepmother wife, which just gives me the hebgb's saying it,
because that that that's that's that's creepy.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Because he may be of age now, but he wasn't
always when she knew when.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, but I don't know you who knows? And I yeah,
you're just getting into some parts of America where I'm like, man,
never been there.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
But you're talking about a behead and I I know.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And I'm just like, man, that's totally But we come
from the Greeks and the Romans and they did some stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, one way to put that edical stories.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I remember reading those and be like, any what, huh huh.
Really all the good stories have been written allegedly, you know,
there was that room with the monkeys and the typewriters.
So yeah, she ends up beheaded and it's like, I'm beheaded.
There's a Japanese grandmother on the other side. Uh that
(12:48):
Their katanas involved decapitating someone. Show you've you've you've worked.
But it's not like, oh, look, let's just go decapitates. No,
it's an effort.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It is effort. Yeah, and it's gruesome and it's bloody
and it's horrific. And that's what I'm saying. You know,
she took a plea deal and then changed her mind.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well and that's where it gets so wild. She allegedly
decapitates him, takes the head, drives it home across town,
and then deposits it in the trash. So, considering all
of the vast evidence against her, she pled guilty, which
you know, that's a pretty reasonable thing to do. She
was offered I think, fifteen years, which is a lot,
(13:34):
But you decapitated someone. She then withdrew that in his
on trial right now, and it just it makes you
shake your head sometime.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I want to also end on something that I think
is potentially pretty positive, at least that's the way I
see it.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So we're not going to do the Diddy drinking toilet wine.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Story, Okay, I think we have to.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now, we're going to do the story one hundred percent share.
I wasn't gonna let you speak from that, Cheryl. Is
there a history of people incarcerated being real creative with
the making of libations?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
There is, and they almost always involve a toilet, a
prison toilet.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
How would our innocent viewers create some pruno should they
want to?
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Well, I mean there's several ways. You know, you're going
to store your bread and you're going to take an
orange if you can get your hand on it. You're
even going to take some packs of ketch Up. When
you open Ketchup, you know that little clear liquid that
comes out, that's pure alcohol honey. So you can get
real creative and you can ferment just about anything. And
(14:51):
one way to keep it nice and cold and that
a perfect temperature is in the toilet.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And really it's the biggest cleanest water tight vessel available
in most cells. It certainly is, especially when you about
plastic bag.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Listen, Thanksgivings coming up. If y'all want to make a
bag of hooge, I mean, this is the time to
do it and serve it to your family, let them
do a taste test.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
My brother for years did psychological work in prisons, and
I've been to a zillion different facilities, so we would
talk about the different varieties. And inmates are the most
creative people in the world. I swear, if we put
them to work, you're in cancer, it'd be done. They
are the most creative people, endless time, endless creativity. They
(15:38):
will actually make stuff that I've been told taste not
that bad by literally taking the fruit, taking your your
ketchup packets or your sugar packet, wherever you can.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Get your sugar and they can get their hands on
skittle y'all.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh yeah, oh you make skittle wine, you make No
one don't want chocolate. That's not that kind of sugar,
but any kind of way, think about a fruit sugar
or a refined sugar. You basically just need to feed
that to some yeast and have a host for it
that doesn't turn poisonous. And you can lightly ferment just
(16:14):
about anything, and you can make some real powerful which
if you put some additional science and time and space
on it. Where we're not talking about your county jails
with people moving in and out. We're talking about long
term storage for inmates where some of these sales ain't
getting checked weekly or monthly because this is you know,
(16:36):
medium security wherever. And there's you know, one one to
two guards for two ondred guys.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
And Josh, let's tell them the good news. The wine
in there is about fourteen percent. Yeah, yeah, So you
enjoy your little seven to nine percent wine.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
It'll get you there. And really you're that board and
you want to who's scout that mint that they will
it'll do you. And so Diddy got caught with some
toilet wine, which I'm telling you I call it right now.
If he serves the time, if he gets clemency, did
he walks out reborn, remarketed and makes extra money talking
(17:18):
about the slayer statute makes more money walking out of prison.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, there's a president for it. Martha Stewart made more money.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
You know. I have the hots for Martha, totally willing
to admit that she is universe. She is beautiful and
brilliant and I find her incredible. But yeah, she took that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
She ain't an idiot.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
She was a stockbroker before she was Martha Stewart Like.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
She's right, that's right, ha ha.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I'm a homemaker now that Lee is a vicious ninja
of brilliance.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And I don't remember the money you made, but it's
like she went in she was worth ten million, she
came out she's worth thirty four million.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Talk about something we should have talked about. Crime wise, Hey, Cheryl,
here's one hundred million dollars. Why don't you go risk
it for say, five grand and fix a game?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Oh my word, those gambling stories over the last two
weeks are out of control. I am telling you I
and anytime you've got humanity and money. You're gonna have crookery,
you just don't. And that's there's people in the world
that you can have lots of great people and someone's
(18:36):
going to run. That is apparently what's happened in baseball.
That is apparently what's been happening in basketball. A bunch
of them high stakes poker games that we're getting completely rigged,
and a lot of people I know have given up
the game of poker because it's just so cheatery these days.
Sports betting I think needs some serious discussion because these
(19:00):
prop bets, these super small side bets that are very fast,
that don't have huge market share, so easy to manipulate.
And that's where we're getting is how's this economy gonna
work out? Because they can track the bets. They're businesses
that literally track suspicious activity on betting lines. That gets
(19:24):
over to a whole thing at UFC where if you
really want to get deep, go look up UFC and
fixing and what's going on with that, because that then
gets into presidential politics.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's the truth. But listen, I think that we should
end on a positive note and I want to brag
on somebody and if you had told me twenty years
ago I would be bragging on this person for this reason.
I might have thought you were out of your mind.
But I want to brag on Kim Kardashian. And here's why.
(19:58):
She's beautiful and she's rich, and she's famous, and she
could spend every day of her life driving around in
some fabulous convertible, sitting next to some fabulous swimming pool,
dressing and going to some fabulous party. But she went
to law school and then she studied for the bar,
(20:20):
and she sat for the bar. Now she didn't pass it.
She took it again, she didn't pass it, and she's
getting dragged. But let me tell y'all something. I ain't
spent narry a day in law school, but I have
heard what one l is all about. I've heard what
(20:40):
that bar exam can do to you. There are people
that have PTSD over it today.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
There's a reason that a third of people drop out
because it's a really unenjoyable time. It's not and no
one's like, oh man, no, it's no, it's terrible, Like
they's terrible, Like no, no, no, it's horrible. We drive
a third out over the here're.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Really smart people that feel that way, And that's why
I thinks a.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Lot of people don't understand even be the smart guy
person in this school or that's law school was the
time where you're for me, everybody was just as smart
and accomplished and could get through, and you're like, Okay,
this is serious, this is different.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
This is a very self But she wants to help people.
She wants to help people that quite possibly could be
wrongly convicted. I say, keep going, take it again, honey,
do anything you can do to help people. If that's
what she is putting herself through, I admire it.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I love the fact that she has failed and comes
back on something that she has personal meaning to. She
has used her celebrity in a few different occasions on
some public justice issues that I think are really important.
And she comes from the Jitimately, the Kardashian name was
originally a famous lawyer. You know, her father was on
(22:05):
the OJAT. People don't remember that, that's.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Right, Robert Kardashian.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Honey. So it's not like she's just some person. Oh,
I'm just gonna know, she's put a lot of thought
and effort. The bar in California is about the hardest
bar in the nation. It is three days long. It
doesn't have reciprocity, but it sucks. It's its own thing.
You'll see a similar bar in say Florida. They're very protective.
(22:32):
South Carolina is very protective, but California has a hard bar.
And I give her a lot of props in kudos
for the bravery of standing up and failing publicly in
an intellectual endeavor and then going back and trying again,
because that's the perseverance that really is character.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I think it says a lot about her because I'm
gonna tell you, we got a powerball in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Three hundred million? If that thing hits the McCollum, I
will not be going to law school, hear me.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Now, The joke with my partner and I is one
day is going to just show up and the name's
going to be scratched off the wall. And that's what
it's got. And it's what happened to Deka. And the
question is is it Doug or is it me that
gets to the doorscraper first because the other one gets
(23:24):
And then on a high note and celebrating people, I
saw that beautiful ring that you were wearing.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Thank you, Yeah, about.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
That honor that I didn't know about in.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Advance, y'all. So in twenty twenty three, I was inducted
into the National Law Enforcement Officer Hall of Fame, and
our rings just came in. So while I was in Ohio,
they officially, you know, gave me my ring.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So to youle Style, it's so cool, and you're such
a good representative for the positivity that law enforcement needs
and deserves because we spend so much time yelling about
the worst, but law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Who do you call just just who do you call?
The most grizzled anti state? Defense attorneys love cops? Why
to know what? We know? How valuable law enforcement is.
And you won't find bigger defenders of law enforcement when
it comes to lawyers in general than criminal criminal lawyers
(24:40):
because we've all seen the good they do. And we
may complain, right, yeah really, And it's it's team America.
It's team We've got to have the best society we can.
It will never be perfect, but the idea is you
keep fighting, and sometimes you're going to fight this way,
(25:01):
then you're going to grow up, no new chapter. You're
gonna fight for a better America that way. Then you're
going to grow up new chapter. Then you're gonna fight
for better America that way, and what your America is
it changes over time. Better America at nineteen different from thirty,
way different than fifty one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
But I appreciate you mentioned it, and I tell you
it was a great honor in twenty twenty three, but
that rings pretty slick.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So it's awesome, and you are so well deserved.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, I appreciate you, sugar, But again, I ain't done
none of it by myself. I've had all the love
and support and kindness and good luck frankly that anybody
could have. And I don't in any way not try
to put a spotlight on it. And I tell rookies
all the time, you need to work hard, you need
(25:52):
to prepare, you need to train, but don't you look
that gift horse in the mouth. That luck can catapult
your career. And you know, I was just in an
elevator during a major trial. It was a homicide trial,
and I walked in. The doors open, and I walked
into the elevator and there were two old guards that
(26:13):
I recognized immediately, both defense attorneys. I hadn't seen him
in years and years. There was a rookie on there.
He could not have been more than twenty four or
twenty five. He stayed just face down in his phone,
and I thought to myself, there's one hundred years experience
on this elevator. Talk to somebody, Introduce yourself to somebody,
(26:35):
tell them where you're going. Are you testifying? Do you
need some support, do you need a pat on the back?
Do you need advice? And you know, we went up
floors and had the doors open, and he just walked off,
and I thought to myself, buddy, you just missed such
an opportunity. And you know, that's just what I try
(26:58):
to tell people. Talk to lunch, go hang out at
the bar, do something.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
The lack of personal interaction is one of those developments
that I've talked to you about that that's scarce. I
know it.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
He never even looked up.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And listen, I remember the eighties like it wasn't that
long ago. And then you think about, man, the eighties
were forty years. What's forty years from twenty sixty five?
It then time moves. Time moves fast. People.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Cheryl, I love you, I love it, I love you,
and I'm thrilled to talk to you. And I cannot wait.
We're gonna get together soon because y'all, yeah, we got
some plans to make, y'all, y'all will be in on
it when it's time.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Big twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
All right, I'm gonna let you send us out.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I'm gonna send today by just asking everybody to go
out there and love some body actively, like, be proactive
with love, even if that person is you, because everybody
deserves love and affection and care. Because you're an important
part of this universe, whether you're big or small, whether
(28:16):
you think you are important or not, I promise you
you matter more to people than you would ever imagine.
And bless every day and enjoy that journey. If you're
stuck somewhere, make the best about being stuck somewhere.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
That was perfect.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Boom boom,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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