How to Make Peace with Death & Die Gracefully

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M hm, Hot Happy Mess, Celebrate your magic in the
middle of life's messes. Hot Happy Mess. I'm serial and
this is Hot Happy Mess. Shute. What's going on? Y'all?

(00:25):
Happy Wednesday? If you're listening to this on the day
that it is published. We dropped new episodes every Wednesday
of Hot Happy Mess. I'm your host, Zuri hall Um.
Today's episode is one that I'm I'm really looking forward to.
It's a conversation that I'm looking forward to having. Um,
you're used to me giving the host reads after I've
already had the conversations, but I haven't had this combo yet.

(00:47):
She is here with me right now, and I'm really
excited about that because I'm very curious to see where
this combo will go and also to learn more about
the work of a death do. If you've read the title,
then you know what you're getting into today. Um. You know,
obviously we talk a lot about how to live our
best lives on the podcast and and just in general,

(01:09):
we talk a lot about life. But death is so
much a part of life, and it's something that we
all experience and encounter when whether it's loved ones, whether
it's strangers, coworkers eventually ourselves. Uh. Today, I'm sitting down
to talk with a death do La A Lula Arthur.
She is going to talk about how to make that
transition both physically and logistically, the healing that comes um

(01:34):
or that can come with certain work after someone passes,
and she's going to help us answer the question what
must I do to be at peace with myself so
that I may live presently and die gracefully. Wow. I
hope this episode is illuminating. I hope it brings you peace.
And here to help us with that journey is a

(01:55):
Lua Arthur, A Lula. How are you? I'm I'm good today,
I joyful. I'm hopeful today than you? Are you good today? Okay,
because since the hesitation, the pause, has it been a
bit of a trying time for you not to get
all into your business? But you know, no problem. I
think it is for many of us. You know, being
human lately comes with an extra set of responsibilities and

(02:16):
pressure that I think many of us adults didn't anticipate.
But I really just took a pause to check in
before I answered on autopilot, m hm, you know doing
that same same I've just in the last year started
to actually take a beat and not lie. So okay,
what can I say that is true? Even if it
may be slightly more depressing than whatever the other person

(02:39):
wasn't expecting to hear. But that's not my problem. You
asked me, and I'm going to tell you before we
get into our conversation. I do just want to kind
of let everyone know who you are because the resume
I mean, um, let me drop you all with the
bio really quickly. One Luia. She is a deaf du

(02:59):
as I'm mentioned, she's a recovering attorney, is does your words? Okay?
Recovering attorney and the founder of Going with Grace, which
is a death do LA, training, and end of life
planning organization that exists to support people as they answer
the question what must I do to be at peace
with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully.

(03:21):
Going with Grace works to improve and redefine the end
of life experience for people rooted in every community, using
the individual lived experience as the foundation. She is inspired
by the gift of life itself and is always on
the quest for the best donuts and fried plantains? Have
you found them? Where do I get everywhere everywhere. The
best plantains fried plantains come from Ghana. The best doughnuts

(03:44):
are in l A. Randy's Donuts by the airport. By
l A X. There's a hazelnut donut that just makes
me go out, what hazel nut? What donut? It's fantastic.
Look at God. But because I'm heading to the airport
on Friday, and now I have a stop along the way,
thank you, good well, welcome too, hot happy mess. Like

(04:09):
I said, I'm so glad to have you on. Let's
just dive right in with who you are. Um, how
you got into this work. What do you hope people
understand about you before we even get into the naty gritty.
Oh that's a big question. Let's see. I'm a daughter,
I'm a lover, I'm a sister, I'm a friend. I'm

(04:29):
somebody who cares deeply about the human experience, about what
we're doing while we're here, how we're enjoying our time here,
because it is really just a brief amount of time
that we're human. I think I'm also somebody who is
really comfortable and emotional depth, which allows me to be
with people out of really difficult and trying time. UM,
somebody who thinks big picture about a lot of things.

(04:51):
I think creatively about how we can approach life. I
think logistically about how we can prepare for the end
of it. And I think I believe I think soulfully
about what we're doing here while we're here. Mm hmmmmmmm.
When it comes to the work that you do, UM,
particularly when you say thinking logistically about the end of life,

(05:12):
your capacity for emotional depth in a way that probably
is higher than a lot of other people's bandwidths. Considering
that you aren't just offering your heart and services to
the people closest to you. This is your livelihood at
this point. I can't imagine what that feels like emotionally
for you to take on every day. What made you

(05:33):
decide to take that on? It is a big one
to take on, understandably, Let's see. So I'm Arid, the
covering attorney. I worked at Legal Aid for the first
ten years of my professional work, doing domestic violence work
mostly and working with people on cash aid, welfare and
food stamps, etcetera. And I got birds out doing that
work and grew a really deep clinical depression, and I

(05:55):
went on leave of absence from my work because life
was not life and it was not happening for me.
I was having a really hard time. Took a leave
of absence, and during that leave of absence, I met
a young traveler when I was in Cuba who had
uterine cancer. And this woman was on the top on
the trip to see the top six places in the
world she wanted to see before she died. And that

(06:15):
really struck me that somebody who was just a few
years older than I was thinking logistically about the end
of her life, like, if this is it, what else
do I want to do? And so I talked to
her a lot about life. I talked to her a
lot about her death. I asked her what would be
undone in her life if this disease killed her. I
was just really curious about her experience. And it was
one of the first times that she had an opportunity

(06:36):
to talk about her death, because when she talked about
it with her friends or her loved ones, they would say, Oh,
don't worry about that, You're gonna get better, you know,
keep hoping you're going to be cured. And she was like, yo,
I might not be, like please, somebody be with me
in this and so I was in it with her,
and in that conversation I began to think about my
own death too. She was only a few years older
than me. I was like, yo, people die like young

(06:58):
people die. Up until that I was thirty three. I
was thirty three, so I wasn't now young, but I
was young enough at that point yet made me feel
like it's over, not remotely, not remotely, but young enough
to My grandparents died before I was born. You know,
nobody's significant in my life had died up until that point.

(07:20):
Michael Jackson was maybe like the biggest death for me.
Up until that point. I was heartbroken. Uh so, I
hadn't really been with death personally. Nobody close to me
had died. And then I got really clear that I
wanted to support people in this conversation because it seemed
really rich and it seemed to help her, and I
was looking for some purpose in my life anyway. And

(07:40):
not long after I came back from Cuba, my brother
in law, my older sister's husband got sick. He got
diagnosed with burkettslm foma, and four months later there wasn't
gonna be anything they could do for him anymore. So
I packed up my stuff from l A, I went
to New York and I stayed with them for the
last two months of his life. And I saw a firsthand.
I had the experience somebody in the process in the

(08:01):
medical care system with somebody who's really sick and dying.
And when I saw it happening in real time, I thought, this,
ain't it like this? Ain't it this is something that
we all must do at some point? Now? Why does
it feel so isolating? Why does it feel so scary?
Why does it feel like there's no support for this
thing that I know what's happening to thousands of other
people today but will eventually happen to all of us.

(08:23):
It seems to me really cruel that we don't take
care of each other in that way. I thought we
needed more support, and so I set out to create it.
And that's how Going with Race was born. MM. What
a fascinating evolution. And I also love that it really
just came together so organically on this trip to Cuba
or it was probably the last thing you would have

(08:44):
expected to come back from Cuba with this thing on
your heart. Um. When we think of Doulah's you know,
traditionally Okay, it's there's a baby on the way. We're
giving birth new life. What I heard death due, I thought, wait,
like just go bur Staff Vipot turned on his head
and it was just a fascinating term. But it is,

(09:05):
to be quite honest, something I had never heard of.
Didn't know it was a thing. Can you explain for
those who may not even know what you know? A
birth do? Is what a doulah is in general? First,
and then obviously what makes a death doula unique? Absolutely so,
A doula is somebody who serves in a supportive role
during a transition in life. A death la somebody who

(09:27):
does all of the non medical care and support of
the dying person and the family the circle of support
through the process, so we can help with emotional things,
logistical things, practical things, spiritual things were there to really
see them through the best that we can. For example,
when I was with my brother in law and my sister,
there were so many things that needed doing, like his

(09:48):
parents were flying in from out of town and they
need medication, and she needed new pajamas, and we needed
buy greeting cards at the hospital, and we need to
pick stuff up so that my sister could be at
the hospital with him and spend as much time with
him as possible. I went to go and do those things,
you understand, such that it freed up the time so
that the circle of support can be with their person,

(10:10):
so they can spend that last amount of time being
they're not researching what needs to go in a will
or what you're supposed to do with all the medications.
When somebody dies, there's somebody there who can handle it
for you, so that you can be present for this
utterly transformative experience you're about to be a part of. That.
That's really interesting to understand because you know it's one
thing for the emotional support or spiritual support. And that's

(10:33):
kind of just where my mind went completely assuming not
knowing yet and looking forward to our conversation so I
could truly understand, but to hear logistically speaking that you're
really you're helping to give people more time, more time
with their loved one, more time to process and grieve
or maybe just be and sit with because I've experienced that.

(10:55):
You know, I lost my grandfather who was like a
second dad to me, extremely close. I held his hand
when he passed, I held vigil at the bed for
days and days and days leading up to it, and
it was one of the most overwhelming emotional experiences of
my young life. I was twenty three, maybe I just
turned twenty four a week before he died, no, two
days before he died, and and that was overwhelming. And

(11:19):
I remember the coming and going in a very murky
way of people having to realizing suddenly that this was
probably the end, and then suddenly having to get on
with the business of living and dying, and so people
who would much rather have been in the room had
to go out into the world and handle things when

(11:40):
we just wanted to be next to my papa during
his transition. So it's really comforting and empowering to hear
you say that a part of what a death du
can do is support all that other stuff so that
you can focus on whatever you decide really matters absolutely,
And sometimes what really matters is also the emotional support.

(12:02):
Sometimes what matters more is the spiritual support. Is what
the hell like? Has this has been my whole life
and now I'm about to find out whether or not
there is a hell like? What happens next? How do
I feel about that? What am I afraid of what
is my life meant so far? Sometimes there are emotional
challenges with family members, their family dynamics that play, which
is often the case. We can support in all of

(12:23):
the all the needs that people have nearing the dying time,
and it's up to the dying person and the circle
of support to help identify what those issues are so
that we can step in when we see fit. I
want to also acknowledge what you did for your grandfather.
That's huge. You've already served as a doula. It's incredible. Yeah,
most of us will do that at some point in
our lives, will be with somebody that we love as

(12:44):
they die, and as you I think, as you said,
but certainly what I felt is it's not an easy task.
It's a really really difficult ones. I want to acknowledge
you for walking with him. Thank you don't make me cry,
But yeah, I feel good about it, you know when
I think about that, and death is something we havevoid
we don't want to talk about. Even I was a

(13:05):
little nervous, like, oh death, A conversation about death Douglas
on the podcast, like that's so heavy, that's so real.
But the truth is we all go through it. And
even now talking with you, I feel it immediately like
it was yesterday. And as painful as it was, as
hard as it was, it was also one of the
most beautiful things I've ever been able to do. I'm
so grateful to have been able to hold his hand

(13:26):
and provide comfort along with our other loved ones as
he transitioned. Um And sometimes things are hard and we
should do them anyway or we want to do them anyway.
And it's amazing and incredible the work that you do
to help facilitate that. From a from a spiritual perspective,
how does that work for you? Personally? Does it? Is

(13:46):
it suggested that a client hire a death doula whose
spiritual beliefs overlap with their own. Are you able to
cater your showing up when the spiritual way to whatever
that person or their families believe in? How what should
we consider when it comes to that. It's most important

(14:07):
that we find something that we feel comfortable with. Do
lahs are largely secular in nature? I mean sometimes it
suggested that do las who have a strong spiritual leaning
themselves and don't feel comfortable supporting people of other faith
traditions stay within their own but I work with everybody.
I work with everybody who's comfortable working with me, because
my job is not to fill the space with my beliefs,

(14:28):
is to support the person who's dying to get clear
on theirs. And so if it's you know, Allah in
twenty seven virgins, good on you. If it's fire and Brimstone,
hopefully not. If it's sitting on the right hand side
of the Father, fantastic. If it's Judaism and you don't
know what's coming next, fantastic. No matter what it is,
I'm here just to help the person get clear on
what it is that they believe. Most people, even the

(14:48):
most religious amongst us, sit with some type of question.
None of us know right, nobody knows. We have a
set of beliefs, of faith of some sort. But a
belief re means basically a belief and it's tested, then
it becomes evidence and there's some evidence for it, but
until then, it's just a belief. And so people that
are dying are sitting right on the threshold, right on
the precipice of finding out, and it's a big scary time.

(15:12):
I think probably one of the reason why many people
don't want to think about death is because it's too
big and uncomfortable for us. Yeah, and those that are
close are from confronted with that directly. Were you ever
that person? Were you someone who was always okay with
the idea of death? Not remotely. I didn't think about it.
I didn't think about it. I grew up evangelical Christian,

(15:35):
and so I was told a lot of things, but
to be honest with you, not many of them drived
with me. Very early. I was like, wait a minute,
what so I'm gonna go to hell because I know,
like I think this God loves me, this guy who
made all this beauty. That's all this beauty and hummingbirds
and like beavers like all the how that gets impossible?
So it didn't jive, which meant that very early on

(15:57):
I had to come up with my own system, which
keeps getting refined and the longer I do this work.
But I still have some fears to death. You know.
I think it's a misnomer that those of us that
work in death and dying have none whatsoever. I think
we're just probably a little bit more comfortable with the
fear than are many who just push it away. And
so I welcome opportunities to look at where my fear

(16:17):
of death might live because that fear of death is
likely getting in the way of the way that I
actually live. Does that make sense, Yeah, it makes total
sense to me, absolutely, and and and I think that
also allows for more compassion for your clients, for the
people that you're working with. Right. It's it's one thing
when someone comes in it's like, I'm not afraid, this
is great, let's do it, and like, sure, there's comfort

(16:40):
in that. And I don't mean it's specific to death,
do as I mean in anything, right when someone's coming
in to help get you to the other side of
the thing. But then you know, I've had moments where
I'm like, oh, this person just don't care care so
like they clearly have no nothing to lose here. But
when someone can come in and say, hey, I'm I'm
a little scared too, or I've been scared before, I've
been where you are, and we're just gonna do it anyway.

(17:01):
I've done it anyway, Well, that to me is a
little more comforting because now you can empathize with my
fear instead of just blindly being like we're doing it.
It's great, it's great rock on everybody gonna die, which
I mean I certainly do, which is the truth, right,
And I can be the same. I can be really
irreverent about it sometimes, but at the same time there's

(17:24):
so much compassion in it because this is big stuff.
And also, aside from it just being deeply emotional, it's
also philosophical. It's existential, like who have I been while
I'm living? It? Touches our relationships, are self worth, our accomplishments,
our family, our legacy, like every part of ourselves gets
called in the question when we're thinking about our death. Naturally,

(17:44):
that brings something up beyond that. Also, the way that
the brain works is it's the brain's job to experience consciousness,
you know, to be here, to look through these set
of eyes, to know my experience. So to try to
imagine the absence of that experience is really hard to do.
Like how the brain can't do that? The brain can't
do that. Of course it's a little scary. I get it,

(18:06):
and that's okay. It's expected suspected. We're human. You've said
I feel most alive when talking about death. Why is
that for you? And why do you think most of us?
I don't want to go there? Why are we also
afraid of it? I feel most of life when talking
about death, because my life does not matter unless I die.
Mm hmm yeah, think about it this way. On your

(18:30):
seven thousand, eight hundred and seventy sixth birthday, are you
still gonna be happy? They singing that song to you? No,
you have unlimited ones coming. It doesn't matter anymore. Why
are we even going to count the birthdays? You know?
Because I'm going to die. Who I choose to be
when I'm living matters. Otherwise, I have an unlimited amount
of time to change your mind or doing something different

(18:51):
because I die. I want to get my work done.
I have stuff that I want to do. Like death
creates some context for this life. Without it, none of
this matters at all. And so when I think about
my death, I get jazz, I get excited. I get
juicy about my life over and over and over again. Yeah,
Like who do I want to be? What do I
want to say? Who do? What do I want to do? Like?

(19:13):
Do I want to tell this man I'm in love
with that I love him? I'm going to keep that
a secret. No, I'm gonna tell him. I'm gonna tell
him Yeah, I'm gonna tell him, Lens, You're so right,
And as you say it, I'm like, uh, like, why
shouldn't I be thinking about it that way? But we
just I think a lot of us don't even take
that second step. We hear death, we think end, and

(19:34):
we just pivot. We just moved, we just shut down,
we compartmentalized, we short circuit. We're like no, no, thank you,
thank you. And realistically it's like eighteen step, you know
what I mean, because we can think like in five minutes,
five years, you know, fifty years down the road, which
for some fifty years might mean our death. But to

(19:54):
think my death itself mean no longer being present, that's
a big one to take him. But nothing, nothing matters.
My life doesn't matter. Nothing I do matters unless I'm
going to die. Right. Wow, your website is going with
Grace dot com. What does it mean to go with Grace? Oh,
it means and surrender. I think it means the best

(20:19):
way that we can. I think it means in full
embrace of what this life has been thus far, for
whatever it's been thus far, for who have become, and
for the mark that we've left, no matter how big
or small, or how would choose to judge it? M hm.

(20:39):
How can we begin the process of preparing ourselves to
go with grace when the time comes? How can we
live a life that helps us more gracefully say goodbye
to it one day? We can start by no longer
denying our death us. We can start by no longer

(21:02):
denying the fact that one day I, as I know myself,
was going to cease to exist. It's a tough one.
It is a big burden. But when we can do that,
we can start to create some means around it. There's
a number of logistical things to do if you're not
ready to look in the mirror and be like, I'm
gonna die, But there's a number of other logistical things
to do to get ourselves ready. Um. We can also

(21:24):
we can make decisions from an authentic place, a place
that says, you know, if I were to die tomorrow,
would I'd be happy I did this thing. We can
move through the world as though we deserve to be here,
because we do. When we're done, we'll be done. But
for now, I am here, I'm here. I would be
as big as I want to be, as loud as
I want to be as bold as I want and

(21:45):
be as sweaty as I want. I'll be as much
cellular as I want. I'm here very very very briefly,
and so I'm gonna do it all up while I'm here. Yeah,
you just get to be here, actually here, not three
minutes in the future, seven days in the past. When
it comes to to being here and sort of being

(22:06):
a sovereign being and being able to take that on
for oneself, that's one conversation when it when we're bringing
in loved ones, spouses, children and how they do or
don't want to touch the idea of death, it becomes
harder helping people cope with the eventual loss of us,
us kept coping with the eventual loss of them. You know,

(22:28):
I had a conversation with a with a very close
loved one recently. Yeah, it was a lighthearted conversation, but
I mented in all seriousness when I asked, you know,
at the end of your life, God forbid, slash is
definitely going to happen, but hopefully a long time from now. Like,
what would you want to do? And I think I
brought up like a medical situation, you know, pulling the

(22:50):
cord or not if you've been comatose for eons, and
the doctors are like, you might want to call it.
Should I do that? Do you want me to just
singing lullabys and watch you waste away for the next
thirty years? Whatever you want is what I'm trying to do.
But what do you want me to do? And that
loved one really pushed back on the idea of dying

(23:13):
let alone. Oh well, if I'm coma tose, I'll just
come in from the other side and I'll pop up
to tell you to pull the plug or not, and
like they're joking, obviously, but it also made me realize
people don't want to talk about this, and I hope
I'm never in a position where I have to make
that decision now, and I don't know what to do

(23:33):
because in waking life someone wasn't ready to go there. Um,
how do we broke shose conversations with our loved ones
and how do we encourage them lovingly to get serious
about having those hard conversations. Thank you so much for
bringing that up, because it's a real issue that many

(23:54):
of us deal with, and many people don't want to
have that conversation. So what you experience is not unusual
at all. One thing that we can do is to
be a gentle reminder and invitation into the conversation. And
what I mean by that is, if you've tried to
broach it and somebody is pushing back, you can try
to make it um more real, more feet on the ground,
like when you were last sick, or you know, when

(24:16):
you were gone on vacation for a week, who took
care of your dog? And would you like this person
take care of your dog if you're no longer here,
like we can make it very tangible and personal and real. Um.
If that's still not working, another thing that you can
try is to talk about yourself and what you might
want to be the invitation to say, well, I would
really like to say on life support for no more

(24:37):
than you know, three days, so that the people around
me are the people that love me can fly to
come and see me and say goodbye when my body
but I think I'll be gone. So you can start
the conversation by telling them what is that you like,
which is probably going to get their thoughts during But
there's a few key components that we should be talking about,
and one of them is certainly life support. What we
want done with our bodies when we can't make the

(24:59):
decisions for ourselves, and also who we would like to
make those decisions for us. So, like with this loved
one you were just talking to, maybe you can ask
if you're the person that they would like to make
that decision for them, you know, and if not, if
there's somebody else, and have you told that other person?
And what did you tell that other person? And you know,
we can start having those conversations as well. So I

(25:20):
think some of us take for yeah, we take for granted,
uh that we might be the one that's doing the
thing for somebody or that there's gonna be somebody else
doing it. But it's important that we have these discussions beforehand,
particularly for I mean everybody but black folks. Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
I'm like, help me out, give me the road map,
give me the bullet points, because I'm already gonna be

(25:42):
at a hundred emotionally, Like, even thinking clearly and logically
can be so difficult to do in those moments. Also
making sure you're getting it right for the person you love, Like,
it's such a burden we sometimes put on ourselves in
a situation where they're no longer UM alert enough to
express that it just breaks my heart that I might

(26:02):
be making the wrong choice. UM. So that's something that
I've thought about a lot. So I appreciate that answer,
and I think that that's a really a great perspective
to make it real, to make it tangible, and then
also to maybe flip it and and be able to
express what I would want. Because I cringe a little
bit thinking about that. You know, I'm asking this person,

(26:23):
but have I really sat with what what my wishes
would be? Not really, And I don't want you to, UM,
but yeah, that's a great way to to hold myself
accountable to UM. When we think about children and parents,
you know, in the conversations around life and death, UM,
it's even more nuanced. You know, you have these these

(26:43):
little minds and hearts that are still being formed and evolving,
and they're so innocent, and yet sometimes I have to
deal with the scariest, biggest, most painful things so early
in life. How do you suggest we navigate conversations around
death with children, UM, Maybe what experiences anything that you

(27:06):
could share, UM around children and death and how to
make that process UM, if not less painful, then more comforting.
For them. That's a great question too. Uh. And let
me start by saying this that kids know so much
more than we think that they know, and we try
to protect them. But by trying to protect them by

(27:26):
not telling them truth about what's going on, we're actually
making it harder for them, and we're instilling them with
an early fear of death. We're instilling them with death
phobia by saying, oh, Grandma's just sleeping, that kid is
not probably scared to go to sleep. I know for sure.
There was a client who came through whose seven year
old song was terrified to sleep because his dad had
told him that grandma went to sleep and she never

(27:48):
came back after she went to sleep, So you want
to sleep anymore. We gotta tell him the truth. We
gotta tell him the truth. We have to do with
age appropriately and also make sure that we're talking from
like a trusted source, like somebody that they trust is
talking to them about death and dying. But we have
to tell them the truth. Um, and if the truth
is I don't know, that's okay. You know, my my

(28:10):
niece was for when my brother in law was dying,
and I was with her the entire time because my
sister was in the hospital, and she would ask me
all these questions that, of course I didn't know the
answer to, and I wanted to tell her the fantastical
things that I've been told, but that didn't serve me
because I had to unlearn it all as an adult.
And so when she was asking, well, is he gonna
go back to the place that he came from? I said, well,
baby girl, that is a great question. I don't know

(28:32):
the answer. What would you like And she said I
hope so because he was safe there, and it broke
my heart. But it also was just like it was
so touching, like she knew what was up, you know
what I mean. She had a she had a framework,
she had a context for it already that worked for her.
And so let's support that. Let's nurture that and them
rather than giving them our fear. Mhm. Yeah. Kids ask

(28:55):
questions all the time, like you know, are you gonna
die one day? When death is occurring around them, they
get aired and the answers yes. But I'm not gonna
be like baby girl, I might die tomorrow. No, that's
not how to do it. What I say often is
one day I will one day, I will, but I
hope it's not for a really really long time. Okay,
and then they okay, okay, okay, okay, Oh my goodness.

(29:21):
I just think of the parents. I'm like, I'm not
I'm a dog. That's about it. I just goodness. Those
those are big conversations. But you're right. Kids are so smart,
and if we are too afraid to have those conversations
with him, they're going to figure it out some They're
going to figure something out somewhere. They're going to go
somewhere for answers or conversation or to try to understand.

(29:41):
So I'd rather it be me transparency. Yeah, let's parent
them in their death as well, you know, and not
give them the nonsense that we were giving that hasn't
served us, that is instead made death more difficult, made
grief untouchable. Like, let's grieve openly in front of them,
Let's tell them the truth. Let's give them an opportunity
to share what they think about. They know death, They

(30:04):
understand that batteries side, video game characters die, cartoon characters
die like, they have some context for it. They know
how to grieve. They get sad when you take things
away from them. They get it. They get it. Let's
hold them there, let's hold them. What are some of
the misconceptions that you've seen in your work around end
of life planning that people tend to have, or what

(30:27):
death looks like as people transition. Where do we begin.
Let's start with Hollywood, because you know, there's yeah, your favorite.
You know, people die in the movies and they're all beautiful,
and the hair is done and makeup done. Cheeks are
Rosie laying in the bed. Everybody's nice and calm and comfortable.

(30:48):
They say something really meaningful and then they flatline in
right down. Look anything like that first starters at all.
And so I think has led a lot of people
to think that they have time when people are right
at the end of life, to fix whatever it is
that might be happening. That is not the truth. Say
it now. First of all, we don't know when that

(31:10):
end might come. But nearing the end of life, people
are unconscious, they don't have much energy left. Communications difficult,
Breathing is difficult, it's hard to talk, let alone, to
dig into deep emotional wounding and scarring and trauma. Please
handle it now, okay, just handle it now, Handle it now.
When the major misconceptions what happens to bodies after they die.

(31:31):
We think of rigor mortis setting in immediately, or you know,
dead dead bodies look kind of like living ones. People
look similar, but it's clear that some quality of them
is gone. And when people are able to spend some
time around dead bodies, I believe that it can support
the grieving process because they can see that the person
that they loved is no longer here like that anymore.

(31:53):
That person has moved on, and what's left is this body,
the sack of flesh and tissue, and so on and
so forth. Another missing reception people have often is about
end of life planning and getting a will or a trust.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's very important
that people think about what's gonna happen to their money
when they die, But far more important is making the
decisions about your health care, having the conversations that you

(32:16):
need to with your loved ones. There is a legal
system in place to handle your stuff. Again, it is important,
it is important, But thinking about what's going to happen
when I die, think about your service, Think about who
you want there, think about people that you might not
want there. Think about what you want at your bedside,
we're kind of dying. You want to experience. My job

(32:37):
is poor people in creating the most ideal death for
themselves under the circumstances. We're all going to do it.
May as well plant do it in a way that
feels best for you. Have those conversations, because the way
that we die ultimately teaches other people how to die,
the people that are there watching the generations that are
coming after me. I want to do it and as

(32:58):
much grace as possible. I want to show my these
that we don't have to be terrified. Right right, Yeah,
in your experience? What does end of life planning? What
does transitioning um from life to death look like for
different communities? Right? Like? Are there any differences and how
different communities, nations people's deal with and process death. Oh,

(33:21):
it's different all over the world. It's different in countries.
It's different given racial lines, it's different different given ethnic lines.
It's just different people approached death and so many profoundly
different ways. If you even think back to the major religions,
the ways in which people access death in that way,
those are so different. There's so many different ways to

(33:41):
do it um, which is why I suggest that people
get curious about what works for them, what elements they like,
what elements feel good to them, and stick with those.
You know, I'd say, yeah, are there any sort of
unique um ideas, actuals traditions around death that you've discovered

(34:03):
or learned about in your career or just personally through
any other communities, particularly along like those racial and ethnic lines.
Many of them perhaps the most unique. And I say
unique because it was foreign to me, as I'm not
of that culture. But the Taragans in Indonesia leave the

(34:24):
dead in the home for a while and then bury
them and then dig them up yearly to brush their hair,
change their clothes, and then rebury them, right right, and
totally normal to them, But to a lot of people
in the West were a gas at the idea. But
ain't nothing wrong with it. It's just the way that
they do it. Something different. Yeah, sounds different, something different, No,

(34:46):
less than you know, And that is how long how oh,
I'm sorry, continue your sentence, no, go for it. How
long they keep their dead, how long they keep it
in the house. You know, it's bizarre. When I was
a kid, I used to think, uh oh, if my
I was thinking of one of my older grandparents and
how I missed them if they died, and I thought

(35:07):
it wouldn't it be so nice if I could just
essentially mummify them involvement and to have them like in
the house, and then I could still visit and talk
to them. And it all seems so reasonable and like
a great idea that I had nothing about. It scared me.
It gave me more comfort than the idea of like
putting them in a casket and just never seeing them again. Now,

(35:27):
with the context of like life and who I am
as an adult and the fact that that's not how
we get down in the States at least, I'm like interesting.
But you know, people do similar things, if not forever,
then for for short amounts of time. And that's what
I hear you saying with this Indonesian population also this
specific community. Absolutely, there's so many different ways to do it.

(35:50):
And I love that you have that idea as a
young person, because it could be you know, people have
home funerals to where the person dies at home, They
leave the body at home for a few days until
everybody feels complete, and then they fund it off to
the funeral home or to be buried in a green
burial no more than three and a half feet underground,
so that the bugs and everything gets to the body.
There are a lot of different ways to do it,

(36:11):
only bounded first of all by our laws, by our creativity,
and also sometimes by our morality, given the morality of
the people that are making the laws. Yeah, because in Indonesia,
ain't no problem to dig up a body and not
part of the anisia and to and to redress it.
But in some parts of the Western world it would
probably be looked at as that's the creation of human remains,

(36:34):
you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you mentioned wills how the
SSAT can be important, but also sort of getting one's
life together towards the end of it and planning for
the experience that you want to have, that you want
your loved ones to have is equally important. But to
talk about wills for a second. Um, you know, even
some of our favorite celebrities we've found out or realized

(36:56):
didn't have them right, Chadwick Boseman, print Aretha Franklin. We've
seen the estates in the families battling it out and
all of these things. Do you recommend that people put
together even a basic will or do you think the
law will sort it out, which it has. You know,
I was just reading the headlines about princes the state
the other day and how it's going to be equally split.

(37:16):
I think like six million dollars between. However, many um
airs are left. But do you recommend or encourage your
clients to have one or is it really to each
his own? I mean, I'm dead at that point my will,
so I'm not going to see a play out right right,
But I also think, man, I want people behind me
fighting over stuff that didn't matter. Manage on the other

(37:37):
side big mad at me for leaving them out of
the will. Um. I suggest that people, certainly, if you
have children or businesses, it's really important to get a will,
if you have an LLC or anything of the sort,
because that's a living legal entity kind of like the
kids that need a guardian or somebody to take care
of them after you die. So and a will is
a correct place to name a guardian for your children

(37:59):
after your death. So with children in business is very
very important. Also with assets over let's say two and
fifty thou dollars also important, anything under that, depending again
on where you live, what location you live in, the
court may have a process so that you don't have
to have a will. It's called an intestacy process or
the probate process, where they'll just go through and divvy

(38:19):
up the stuff and figure out who the next of
kin is and who should inherit it. So if it's
not that important to you, you don't need this particular
watch of your grandfather's to go to your grandson, then
you can leave it. Tell somebody that that watch is
important and who you wanted to go to. Though. I
think also really important is that we talk about the
story behind the possessions. The money matters, but like, where'd

(38:42):
you get that rock from? Why does that rock matter
to me? It's just a rock to somebody else, it's
the last thing that their mother gave them before they died. Yeah. Yeah,
let's think about the stuff, why this stuff has meaning,
and if it's important to you, create a plan for it.
That plan could be a will, It could also be
a docu man that says, here are the important things,
here's who I want them to go to. UM save

(39:04):
that documents in place where somebody knows the passwords they
can get to, because when you die, that password's gonna
die alongside with you and make sure that people know
what it is that you want. Yeah, that is so
spot on too, because like in my experience, I'm thinking
about like the mad dash that happens right after someone
you love passes if there's not clarity around who gets what.

(39:25):
Everyone who loves that person is so desperate for some
reminder of them, so desperate for something to cling to,
to touch, to feel, And it can also be really unsettling,
a little bit heartbreak and confusing when that person passes.
And in life they loved you so much, you knew it.
They were always there for you, They're always thinking of you.

(39:45):
And then if there isn't a will, and I'm speaking
for myself and personal experience, it's not about what you
get you don't. I personally didn't want anything of note,
certainly no money, but it's just like you want one
last message from them. At least in my experience, I
wanted to feel thought of by this person who has
my whole heart one last time, and so I just

(40:08):
through that experience realized for me and moving forward, Um, wow,
this will. It's not just about who gets my money
once I'm gone. It's an opportunity to say something to
the people I love who I've left behind. It's an
opportunity to give them comfort or let them know that
even in my passing and in my transitioning, I've cared

(40:30):
for them and thought of them and want to show
up for them, even in a tiny way. Because you're right,
I'll take the rock. I would take anything. I'm smuggling,
sunglasses I was. I'm taking his post back off, like
whatever I could get to just feel feel that loved
one's present. So I do think the will can actually
be a gift in a different way, not in the

(40:51):
superficial give me stuff way, but in the that meant something.
They thought about me enough in their life to want
me to have this after they're death. That such a
beautiful way to put it. Uh. And you're absolutely right
that some tangible piece of them remains after they die.
For everybody, you know, I'm gonna be gone, but all
my stuff is still gonna be here in this temporary

(41:12):
place I'm in. Everything that I have here is still
going to be here, and people are going to look
at it and it's going to remind them of me
at some point. It's part of the reason why I
really encourage, uh, the end of life planning consultations would
do particularly at going with grace to be written down
by the person who's doing it, because then when that
person dies, there's still a written in their handwriting um

(41:34):
memorandum of what it was that they wanted, an artifact
of them handwriting. Still little things like their smell that
fades real quick after somebody dies, that lives on in
their clothing, you know, the things that they touched or
were very often their shoes that have the grooves in them,
their cell phone that they touched all the time to watch,
the jewelry that they wore every day. Things like that

(41:55):
tend to be of higher um emotional value then the
dollar bills in the bank. I mean, don't get me wrong,
the dollar bills help a lot. We'll take the dollar bill.
So we'll take the polo shirt saying the money, we'll
take the we'll take the sunglasses that you're sneaking off.
We'll take anything that you can spare. Right, and whoever
is listening to this, if I'm in your will, don't

(42:17):
take this as permission to just cut me out of
the money part. I'll take. Okay, I'm not saying yes,
and anybody who's listening, go ahead and put me in
your will. Okay, that's all the world. We'll take it.
We'll take it um. When it comes to grieving after death,
you know, or even not even after, but if we're
supporting a loved one who it's very clear, there's the expiration,

(42:40):
data is near, there's a time limit. Sometimes it happens
via terminal illness. Sometimes it happens via an unexpected and
tragic accident. How can we show up for our loved
one when it's not us, we're not planning the end
of our life. How can we help them transition? Hiring
a death do la ventually? Maybe floating the idea of

(43:01):
a death do la to them. That's a great idea.
I love that one. That's the best. Yeah, yeah, good,
good job. Ask if there's anything that you can do
to support, and if you've heard of a death will
you could be like, I've heard of people that do
this work. Is it something that you think could support
in some way? And who knows where they might be.

(43:21):
I think the biggest thing that we can do is
show up with a lot of compassion for their experience.
None of us knows what It's like none of us,
even those that have been really, really really sick before, um,
have any idea what it's like to know that your
life is going to be ending of this particular disease
in a short amount of time. And so we need
to come at them with a lot of compassion. Um.

(43:43):
It's important that we stop. We don't forget that they
are still living. They're not dead yet, and so they
probably still want to know the things that are going
on in life. It's important that we take their lead
with the things that they want to talk about and
the things that's on their hearts. You know, we've got
to make space for them to talk about here. We
gotta make space for them to talk about death. We
also got to make space for them talk about baseball

(44:05):
if that's what they want to talk about. Like, they
don't have to talk about the fact that they're dying.
They don't have to talk about their sadness or their
fear of their grief or anything like that. Don't forget
that they're a whole person still, they're dead yet, and
they're still alive. We've talked a lot about boundaries on
the podcast because that just informs so much about peace

(44:27):
and wellness and not giving so much of oneself that
you've given too much. And what I've noticed in my
experiences with death, with funerals, with family coming together, because
you know, families we put the fun and dysfunctional sometimes
and oftentimes the only time we're all getting together is

(44:47):
because of a cataclysmic event, whether it's a good one
or a bad one. Something significant has happened and now
we all are about to get together and deal with
each other because of it. Um But a lot of
the nice c ds go out of the way. Know
the rules change fast and hard, and the death of
a loved one means everyone is individually processing their grief

(45:08):
in a different way, and they are acting out even
worse than one is just a typical Thanksgiving and the
family is on one What have you experienced, witnessed observed
about family dynamics in these difficult times? And what are
some good boundaries to set? How do we how do
we even set boundaries in a moment when everyone is

(45:29):
just trying to make sense of the tragic I love
that you say that Thanksgiving is even more complicated than
it normally. It's because listen, these family gatherings, there's something
special thing, and you're right, after death, everything is amplified.
And I think, or at least I have witness that
we see both the best in people and the worst

(45:49):
in people after death, because some people show up and
show out, you know what I mean, and then some
people you're kind of surprised by their behavior when somebody dies. Okay. Now,
my biggest suggestion, and it keeps coming back to this,
is compassion for their unique lived experience. We all had
a different version of the person who died. We had

(46:09):
a different experience of the person who died, you know
what I mean, Like my experience with yeah, like, and
there are a hundred and seventy five thousand different versions
of me out there in the world, and hundred thousand
different griefs that are going to be experienced after I die.
DVD people grieve me have read that. But you know
what I mean here, I love that I have a bread.

(46:32):
They're going to be trumpets, Okay, I need cheerleaders and
the back hand spring, Okay, um. But the point being
that everybody is having their unique experience and so honoring
that within themselves and honoring that for myself as well,
you know. Uh, And I think that sometimes that compassion
doesn't mean that I got to show up and be

(46:53):
present for whatever it is that you want to serve,
but rather in order to take care of mine, I'm
going to go Yours is different than mine, and I'm
going to take care of mine. I take care of mine.
Yours it's different than mine. That That's something that I
came back to all the time. And it's so supportive
across life, across the board, like we see the color
blue differently, you know what I mean, Your grief is

(47:13):
different than mine. This is what mine feels like. I'm
gonna take care of my grief for whatever it is. That. Okay, Okay,
that helpful. No, that is absolutely helpful. That that is
so helpful. I I appreciate that, so thank you so much. UM.
In regards to sort of how everyone deals with the
aftermath of a death so differently, UM, some of us

(47:37):
have new traumas that we carry where you know, we
could be siblings and completely have three different versions if
I'm talking three siblings, of what that death does to us,
even though that person was so significant to us, to
all of us, and sometimes in similar ways, we have
a listener question someone who actually is quite traumatized based
on the passing if someone they cared about, they say,

(47:59):
I lost someone very close to me a few years ago,
very unexpectedly, and we were very close in age. Ever
since he passed, I've been afraid of basically every type
of transportation, trains, driving next to trucks on the highways.
Is there a name for this and what would you
suggest to get over it? First of all, it's totally normal.
It's absolutely normal. It sounds like a cute grief, and

(48:22):
it sounds like a perfectly normal response to the death
of somebody that you love, particularly if the death was sudden.
But even if it wasn't, many of us start fearing
death in a greater way after somebody we love dies
because we have had a difficult experience with that death.
And so whatever it is that you're experiencing completely normal,
was the second part of the question. What can be

(48:42):
done about it? Yeah, if there's a name for it,
and what would you suggest they do to try to
get over it. I don't know the name for it,
but I do know that it is a normal response
and acute grief if it's going on for longer than
six months or so after the death, and I'd suggest
perhaps seeing a mental health profession, because we don't want
it to get to the point where it's impacting the

(49:03):
activities of daily living. And maybe it's impacting life in
such a way that we're living in fear. Um. But
grieving and this is a part of grieving is totally normal. Um.
One of the things to do, I think, is to
look at what the root of the fear is. So
if the if the fear is that you are also
going to die, what is the root of that fear?

(49:24):
You know, looking at your fear of death, because that's
what it is that's showing up and asking you to
sit with it for a moment. Is it the fear
of like the process of the body, is that the
fear of not having done enough with your life? Is
the fear of leaving like some life on the table,
that there are things that you haven't done yet. What
is that fear that you're experiencing that's having you not
go on a bridge? Yeah, the fear is that you're

(49:46):
going to die, But what is the fear of that?
Make sense? So it's not so much what you're saying,
what I'm hearing you say is it's not so much
the way one dies. Like sure, that's sort of the
tip of the ice. For that's what's above the service,
that's what we see. It's trucks, its vehicles, it's whatever.
I assume that this person may be lost their loved
one via some sort of vehicular accident, But it's what's underneath,

(50:11):
It's the belly of the beast. It's why are you
afraid to die? Period? Like what is that fear? And
that would be deeper and probably much more significant than Oh,
I just don't want to be in a car accident.
I don't want to go off a bridge. It's what
happens after when yeah, you're like absolutely, I don't want
to go off a bridge either. I think it'd be terrifying.
I'm scared of heights, and I think about my fear
of heights too, and I'm like, well, what is that about?

(50:32):
Because I think most fears are fear of death. Right,
I'm terrified to go off the side of the bridge.
I'm afraid of falling. I'm afraid of that fear of like, ah,
that long, like slow descent into what is my certain death?
Then what is it that I fear? From that point?
M Okay, did you do a lot of work. Did
you have to do a lot of work to make

(50:53):
peace with your death before getting into your your new career,
before work as a death duela or was it just
something that you were able to casually find more comfort
with the idea. Yeah, I think you sit around enough
people that are dying and you can't help but think
a lot about your own death. No. I didn't do
much work around it at all. Like I said, the
time in Cuba was the first time that I was like,

(51:15):
wait a minute, I'm a die And that really forced
me to sit straight up and be like, wait, what
does that mean? You know, what does that mean? What
is this life that I've had so far? This can't
be it. There has to be something more. There's no
way that I'm gonna die depressed, having been a lawyer
for ten years, not have the time of my life,
having all the sex. I didn't eat none of that cake,

(51:38):
Like that can't be. It can't be it every cake,
every cake literally figuratively. Oh but okay, we're not going
out like yeah, we're not going out like this. A
lot of times, the fair death is a response to
a fear of a life not fully lived. M I

(52:01):
ain't got enough out of life yet, so I'm not
ready to die. Then what is it you're missing? What
haven't you done? Go do it? Do it. Life will
just be more rich as a result. You may not
die for another forty years, but your life today, presently,
it's going to be so much more rich because you
went and did that thing that you're putting off until
whatever to do. You don't know that you're gonna have forever.

(52:21):
Just do it. Eat the cake. Just eat the cake.
Eat the cake, Eat the cake. We're all coming out
on the other side of the pandemic. What broke my
heart One of the articles I couldn't stop reading that
I should have stopped reading. We're hearing of, you know,
women giving birth alone, of people saying goodbye to loved

(52:41):
ones from a window or a phone call because they
couldn't even go to the hospital, people dying in isolation,
and and families just being broken because of that. How
did the pandemic shift how you supported people during that time?
How did it impact you, not just professionally but personally,

(53:03):
knowing what you having you to do and what you
having you to give and then maybe not even being
able to do it. In the way that you normally
would during the pandemic Bingo. That part, that part, when
I think back to those early days, to those articles,
those images, there's like a tightness that forms in my chest.
I was devastated. I mean I probably sat on the

(53:25):
couch for a good couple of weeks just being like,
people are dying with no support. Granted, some people want
to die alone. I cannot imagine that somebody had a
little cough on a Wednesday, went to the hospital on
Saturday and never came home. You know, like it just
it it It hurt, is not adequate. It crushed me.

(53:47):
It crushed me. Um. And also because you know, so
much of the work is built around supporting and empowering
people to have the most ideal death for themselves under
the circumstances. That's a really key component of it. And
so after and they're feeling all my feelings, feeling all
my grief, feeling so much sadness, and like the weight
of the pain that people were in, I got my

(54:07):
ass up and got to work. Because the key component
of the work is to support and empower people. I
can do that from anywhere. I don't have to be present.
If I can support people in creating rituals that feel
authentic for them around grief, around funerals, around death, around loss.
Then I'm doing my job. If I can um support people,

(54:28):
give them some signs and symptoms of death and dying,
that I'm doing my job. If I can support people
and finding ways to honor their dead, I'm doing my job.
You know. If I can help in any way, I'm
doing my job. And so I got to work real hard.
I got to work a lot of free webinars, a
lot of rituals, a lot of public grieving, a lot

(54:49):
of what can we do to hold each other during
this time? Because I mean, you just said you were
feeling that we were all feeling it. It was tough. Yeah,
you mentioned signs and symptoms of death and dying and
that you were doing your job if you were able
to get that across. What are some of those signs
and symptoms I've heard, you know, people seeing people in
the room that aren't there talking to loved ones who

(55:11):
have already passed on, and we in the room are
just like, wait, what, so what what? What are some
signs or symptoms that aren't the obvious ones that would
make us realize that this might be the end pretty soon. Here.
Those certainly happen those that you just suggested, but also
things that are happening in the body. Uh, let's see
a couple of weeks before death, people really start to

(55:32):
withdraw into themselves. Um. I think that it's about having
less energy, but also that there's some internal work that
needs to be done. People often forget that similar to
the labor it takes to be burst when somebody is
dying from disease, there is also a labor that goes
into dying, and so people start to withdraw into themselves. Um,
they're breathing, habits and patterns might change. They want to

(55:54):
not eat as much, they don't want to drink as much.
Please stop feeding folks. If they're saying they don't want
the food anymore, the body is done. You're saying if
they don't want to eat, don't make a mean. Yes,
I'm saying that. Listen. Food is one of my love languages.
To okay, feed me. And also I recognize when somebody
I love is in my house. What do you want

(56:15):
to eat? Have you eaten anything? I learned it from
my mother. What are you gonna eat? You haven't eaten?
For a while, and we need to stop forcing our
love down people's throats. The body can love to ticket.
It takes so much energy to digest food, you know,
enzymes and like life force energy, all that stuff is
going into it. The body can't produce it anymore. The
body is selfly shutting down. The body is dying, and

(56:37):
so by making them eat, we're doing them a disservice.
It's so much harder for them to digest simple, simple things.
If they don't want it anymore, they shouldn't have it anymore.
They shouldn't have you know. It's tough, but it's the
more loving thing to do, is to stop if they
don't want it. If they don't want it, um, the

(56:58):
same thing goes with quid. At some point people aren't
as thirsty anymore, so we need to listen to that.
The kidneys are working real hard. They're shutting down, so
they cannot process. Their bodies flooded with all types of
chemicals and things. We can't force them to drink if
they don't want to, so that slows down. There's a
lot more sleeping, longer periods of unconsciousness. UM. The skin

(57:21):
might change. This is probably like a few hours before death,
the skin a texture might change, might get cold. Uh yeah,
then they don't start to change. Lips change color, um,
like eyeballs start to sink in a little bit. We
start to lose some some plump in the skin sallow
to the skin sallow grayish. Um, it's not as plump anymore,

(57:46):
you know, dying. Dying doesn't look like anything that we've
been told dying looks like. But dying looks like I
think what it should look like, which is that the
life force energy is diminishing, and the body can't do
what we've known it to do for so long, and
so we just must let it do the only thing
that it can't, which is work to die, to die,

(58:09):
to let go. Yeah. One of the most important questions
your company, going with grace poses is the one that
we acknowledge towards the start of this conversation, which is
what must I do to be at peace with myself
so that I may live presently and die gracefully. Are
there any actionable steps, any action items you recommend we
do to live more presently and die more gracefully. Yeah,

(58:33):
get your affairs in order. Those are actions steps. Start
thinking about the practical things. Who do you want to
make your decisions for you? If you can't UM, what
kind of decisions would you like them to make? Think
about your services. Think about what you want done with
your body. Think about your possessions, like we talked about,
not only the big ticket items, but also the sentimental ones.
Think about your dependence or pets. Who do you want

(58:55):
to care for those? Um? Think about your important information
and your documents? Where are they? Are they under the mattress?
Does somebody know that? Are they in the freezer or
are they in the filing cabinet in the office on
the left. The documents in the freezer are your import
paper might actually yeah, might not all over the place,

(59:16):
but they're they're in the Florida people keep up with
the freezer. No, but for real, I have to check
all types of places when I go into a home
because you don't ever know. And then the thing that
we all forget is that when somebody dies, that knowledge
dies with them with them unless they have told somebody.
I have found credit cards and mortgages in the freezer,

(59:40):
like a deed to a house in the freezer. In
the freezer, people keep all sides of things, all types
of places, and the mattress is another popular one. So
tell somebody where your things are, Tell somebody where your
things are um in order to also live presently and diagracefully.
Like we were talking about, if there is anything that
you're living in resistance to right now because of a
fear of death, it's time to take a solid look

(01:00:02):
at that, because that death is going to come, hopefully
not for a while, if you know, we're near ready,
but it's going to come. And if that's the case,
you may so we'll start working on it now so
you're not rushing to try to get it done when
you may no longer be able to. Right If there
are things that you need to say to people in
your life, something along the lines of thank you, I'm sorry,

(01:00:22):
please forgive me, I love you, please say it. Look
at the quality of relationships, the people that you love,
the people that in your life right now, the people
that are no longer there. Are you comfortable with the
choices that you've made. You're gonna live with them, you're
also going to die with them. Wow, are you comfortable
with the choices you have made? That's a question, that's

(01:00:42):
that's you're talking about. Death is scary. That's a scary
question because there's so much opportunity for regret for things
we never said, things we said wrong mainly and now
that person is gone and we can't take it back.
Don't do that to the future self, you know, doing
through that too, Eat yourself. Just handle it now. But
think about you know, all the things that you've done. Also,

(01:01:04):
be comfortable with who you've become. And if you're not,
here's your invitation and make a change. M h, here's
your invitation to change something. M yeah, insummation, UM one.
I never knew I was going to enjoy a conversation
about dying. I've had a great time talking to you

(01:01:25):
about our impending deaths. So thank you for for all
of this wisdom. Um. But in all seriousness, you know,
we think, so, we've a lot of us think. I
certainly have been one of these people who think so
much about legacy, about I was here. I want the
world to know I was here. The more work I do,

(01:01:45):
the more meditation, the more reflection, And maybe it's because
of sort of I'm just like, it doesn't matter, it matters,
but it doesn't matter, and that has been freeing for me,
Right do I want my loved ones to to feel
my love after I'm gone and know that I cared absolutely.
But I think it's very tempting in this society, this

(01:02:08):
world of ours, to get so caught up in making
a mark and making a difference and meaning something to
people who we don't know from Adam, that we focus externally,
and we waste so much life, so many years, our
best years, trying to make a mark externally for people who,

(01:02:28):
even if they think of us and are impressed for
a fleeting moment, won't be thinking about as significantly or
for any extended amount of time. And more and more,
when I think of legacy and what I leave behind
or just what I want to do, I just want
to live and enjoy it and be fully present in it.
And I wanted to feel good while I've got it.
And when I'm gone, I hope that I haven't caused
too much pain to the people who have been left behind,

(01:02:49):
and I hope they know I love them. And that's
really it, because a million years from now, like whatever
I'm curious to know for you, um, is that something
that allot of people grapple with, the legacy of it all?
Why am I here what do I want to leave behind?
And have you how have you come to terms with
legacy personally? I believe very strongly to what you just said.

(01:03:15):
You know, sometimes I think that searching for some meaning
of my life, for some purpose or some something that
I'm going to leave behind is red herring that distracts
me from the tremendous gift It is just to be
able to be alive, and to bring in oxygen and
to release carbon dioxide, to taste the pomegranate seeds, to

(01:03:40):
watch caterpillars on the vine, to look at the clouds,
to be able to look into the eyes of somebody
I love, and to feel awe at like a baby's fingernails.
You know that to me is the juice that, to
me is the fun stuff. I want to be here.
I want to be here because I am so briefly human.
I want to joy it as much as possible when

(01:04:01):
I'm gone. I hope that the people that loved me
I know that I loved life. I loved my life,
and that I gave it the best that I could.
Now if for other people, their accomplishments or what they
have to leave to other people matters deeply to them.
By all means, I hope that they go for it,

(01:04:22):
because we're going to reach the end of our lives
and it's we're going to die our own death. You know,
live your life because you're going to die your death.
If it's important to you to have your name on
the side of a building, by all means, please go
for it. Go for it, work your butt off to
get there, and be pleased with whatever it is that
you create in the process, because it's coming when we're
another So how can we make peace with this, this

(01:04:44):
miracle that is life? Right? Wow? Beautifully said? Beautifully said,
I am so filled with joy and peace. I'm like, oh,
she's getting her job. But don't be too good now.
I'm not trying to go to that side. I'm feeling
at peace after this conversation. People. If people want to

(01:05:06):
connect with you, if they want to learn more about
your services, potentially book a session or a consultation. Where
can they go? You can always find us on the
internet going with grace um or on any social media.
I'm most social media, not any not TikTok, because I
don't know how to do those things with you stand
on the point of things, I pulled my back trying

(01:05:26):
to make a Ticktome video last week. I go, oh
my god, I wish I was like. My boss was like,
you need to make up another version of how you
pulled your back because you sound ridiculous. That's hysterical. Your
boss is like, sit down, please sit down right. Uh yeah.
So you don't find me on sick talk, I'm doing
only dances with my niece every once in a while,
but otherwise anywhere on the internet, I'm pretty findable. Wait, no,

(01:05:50):
hold on, and what you gotta tell us? We're on
the internet. So going with Grace at going with Grace, Okay, okay, okay, okay,
we specific going with grays dot com for the website
Instagram is at going underscore with underscore Grace. If now
you end up with a yellow lab and like Kansas

(01:06:10):
or Somebody's not me for sure, not no, no, that's
not that's not it. You can always search a lt. Arthur.
You'll find me somewhere. Um that if you just want
to ease the regular googles. Um. Otherwise, I am in
my house in l A. I am drinking delicious ice

(01:06:31):
hazelnut lattes. I'm working on a book right now and
I'm kicking it looking out the window. Yeah, that's amazing. Also,
I didn't realize you were based in l A. So
that makes way more sense that the doughnut recommendation. You're
probably playing up at l a X all the time.
Listen for hazel nut donuts. That's why not even catching

(01:06:55):
the flight. Just just go for the traffic and the donuts.
That's it. I love it. Well, Hey, Louis, thank you
so much for your time, your energy, your wisdom. Uh
never laughed so much talking about death and in all seriousness, um,
your perspective. Really it's unique. It's needed, and I appreciate it.

(01:07:16):
And I've got a lot to take away and sit
with as as I continue to think about some of
the hard things, and I know our listeners will feel similarly.
So I appreciate you and thank you, I hope, so
thank you so much for having me, and thank you
for having this conversation because it's healing, So thank you.
Thank you. Him happy, Yes, all right, you all there

(01:07:36):
it is. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as I did. Don't forget to check out the Going
with Grace the website for more resources to reach out
if you're interested in booking a session with a death
do lah uh. And by the way, if you're loving
what you're hearing, don't be shy either. The love keeps
team HA Happy Mess going, So go ahead and leave
us a review. Apple podcast Spotify All the Things five

(01:07:59):
stars is awesome because um, so speak what's on your heart.
But hopefully it's a positive review. And share this episode
with a friend if you liked what you heard, if
you feel like it's applicable to someone in your life,
um or just a conversation that you want to get going.
This could be the icebreaker that you're looking for to
have that meaningful, maybe sometimes difficult conversation with a loved one.

(01:08:22):
You can follow us at how Happy Mess and at
Zurie Hall on Instagram and we'll see you next Wednesday
with a new episode by Guys

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