Uplift: She educates on stress, burnout, compassion fatigue, and financial equity in the mental health field.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Rashan McDonald. Our host is weekly Money Making
Conversation Masterclass show. The interviews and information that this show
provides are for everyone. It's time to start reading other
people's success stories and start living your own. If you
want to be a guest on my show, Money Making
Conversation Masterclass, please visit our website, Moneymaking Conversations dot com

(00:21):
and click to be a guest button. If you are
a small business owner, entrepreneur, motivational speaker, influencer, or nonprofit
now let's get this show started. My guest co founded
Hand in Hand Counseling Services, a private practice addressing mental
health disparities and black communities and pay inequities in the

(00:41):
mental health field. Through her company vitem See Healing, she
equips workplaces to build trauma sensitive wellness centered cultures that
support work life harmony. Please welcome to Money Making Conversation
Master Class. Serice Nance. How you doing, Miss Nance?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well? How are you?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
There was a lot of big words in there that
I need to really come back and talk about. Okay,
because we have two companies here, we have Hand in
Hand Counseling Services. Give us some background on that and
the significance of me bringing it up in this interview.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yes. Hand in Hand Counseling Services of private mental health
counseling practice in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, founded by myself and my partner,
Tess Kenny. She and I are friends and we met
in college. We were college roommates. We worked for a
lot of nonprofit organizations, a lot of community mental health
in the school system, hospitals, and we saw a lot

(01:38):
of disparities in the mental health field and social services professions.
We saw the people who looked like us being misrepresented
and we wanted to bridge that gap, and we wanted
to create a safer space where people could come and
get their mental health needs met. And that's how Hand

(01:59):
in Hand Cause Services was founded. We'll be celebrating twelve
years on November first.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Now, when I hear individuals talk like you to see,
to see an issue, to see a problem, how does
it become noticeable to you? And then how do you
start communicating that disparity that you were seeing in the
black community when it came to mental health and trauma.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I look for trends and patterns. So if I see
it in one person and I'm out here working in
the community, serving people and I notice something and I
make a mental note of that, and then if I
continue to see it, it's a recurring theme. I'm like, Okay,
we have a problem here, there's something here, and it's like,
what am I going to do about it? Am I

(02:46):
going to be part of the solution? Or am I
going to just let the problem be? Or am I
going to work to try I don't want to say
fix the problem, but look to solve the problem and
look to more importantly collaborate to see if there are
other people that I can work with to make sure
that this need gets met. Because we can complain about

(03:06):
the problem. There are so many problems that we can
talk about that we can complain about. But what am
I or what are we going to do about it?

Speaker 1 (03:15):
And let's talk about mental health twelve years ago, Black community,
we are the most indeniable. We are a community we
don't see no problems and got all these problems. It's
financial whether we don't want to admit that there's a
gain lesbian lifestyle in our community. Mental health, we definitely

(03:36):
don't want to admit that. So how were you able
to start moving the needle in a period now it's
different now, but twelve years ago it was not different,
and people will be offended because you thought that way
in the black community.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
How did you deal with that great question? And I
think it began with trust because I was known in
my community, I've served in my community, a lot of
people have worked with me. So when I got to
the place where Tessa and I were going to open
this practice, people felt good. We had a great response,

(04:17):
we were getting referrals, and we would we were real,
we were ourselves. We would let people know that, Hey,
just because we're in this position, which can be perceived
as a position of power, we are not exempt from it.
I am a therapist who has a therapist. There is
no way I could be an entrepreneur and do this
work without a therapist. So sharing my lived experiences and

(04:41):
being open to giving people the space to talk about
their concerns and their fears and validating them and naming
it instead of trying to push up against it, and
you know, just tell people what they're experiencing is not real,
or convincing them why they should do something, but just
giving them that space to share what is what are

(05:06):
the barriers for why we don't see therapists, and a
lot of time is it's trust. You know, we don't
error dirty laundry. Uh we that's not something that we're
going to talk about. And then we have to ask
the question, Okay, so how has that been helping you?
How has that been serving you? And then we do
a lot of education on what therapy is and what
therapy is not, and what you should what you which

(05:28):
you might want to be seeking when you are or
are seeking a therapist.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Right, What exactly is stress?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Sure? So stress, that's a that's a pretty broad, vague term.
Stress is not necessarily a bad thing. Typically when we
think about stress, we are thinking about being overwhelmed by
demands that we just don't have the resources to cope with.

(06:00):
That is what stress is. But there's you stress. When
we are experiencing something that is positive, like a speaking engagement,
we're excited about it, but before we get on stage,
we might become fearful. That's a form of stress. You're
adrenaline is going and it's high and it's releasing hormones

(06:21):
and cortisol. So your body has the same reaction whether
you are experiencing the good stress, which is you stress,
or whether you are experiencing that distress, which is when
we just feel overwhelmed by life demands and we just
run out of resources to code.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's why I wanted to ask that question, because people
say the word stress and don't realize there is stress
in a positive action in life, because people will tell
you sometimes I go to my doctor and it takes
my blood pressure. They'll say, Okay, we're going to take
it twice. Because you're in the doctor's office. You may
be stressing and elevate your blood pressure. Nothing to do

(07:02):
with me in bad physical condition. It's just that'm excited.
And a lot of situations athletes get excited may be
dealing with a level of stress. That's why sometimes they'll say, oh,
his balls are thrown high because he's stressing, or you know,
he hasn't calmed down yet. Through experience, you know, learn

(07:23):
how to monitor that quality stress or that upbeat stress. Now, yes,
let's go to the bad stress side where a lot
of people think they're monitoring that series, but they are
feeling in it. What are some of the signs you
want to tell my audience, and I'm speaking to series nance.
She co found it hand in hand counseling a private

(07:45):
practice addressing mental health disparities in the black community.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
So when thinking about stress, so some physiological signs that
you might notice is changes in your body temperature. You
may you start to get warm and you start sweating.
You feel your palm sweating. You are noticing that your
heart is beating faster. You feel like you can't catch

(08:11):
your breath, or maybe you feel frozen. You want to
say something, but you just cannot say something. The tense shoulders,
the shoulders up here like this, clenching your jaws. When
we're under stressed, it affects people in different ways. I
know for me personally, when I'm under stressed, I become
a task master. I become more and more of an overfunctioner.

(08:34):
I need to do more, I need to be working
on something because that allows me to avoid the feelings
that are causing the stress. So some people become task master, overfunctioners, perfectionists.
And then some people maybe they procrastinate, maybe they have
a hard time getting out of bit. So these could

(08:54):
be signs of stress. But as I'm talking to you
about stress it is it makes me think of depression
and anxiety, and these are diagnosable mental health conditions. And
the only way to know if you are experiencing that
is to seek the counsel of a trained mental health professional.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Wow. Now again the twelve year period because I'm gonna
talk about this a little bit more because COVID hit.
When COVID hit, I don't care what community you were in,
mental health was just went off, went off, The rails
went off, the rail absolutely, and it was due a

(09:35):
lot to isolation and people not dealing with their daily
you know, we always what we're doing, understand is that
sin hello is meeting people or even bumping into people,
are going around people is a form of therapy because
it allows you to disconnect your brain from just focusing
on nothing. You know, is when your brain focuses on nothing,

(09:58):
it creates a problem for you. Let's talk about what
COVID did for your industry, and then how are you
dealing with it? Moving forward?

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Right? So I want to what you mentioned was a
really good point that we heal when we are in community.
It's hard for us to heal in isolation. And what
you're mentioning, there's a word, maybe it's a clinical word.
It's called code regulation. So when we are in community
with other people, we are feeling their energy, We are

(10:29):
feeling their compassion and their empathy, and we're talking and
we're laughing, and you just naturally start to feel good.
And that's why so many people struggled. When we were
in quarantine, when we couldn't go anywhere, we're working from home.
People were getting cabin fever. And I noticed even in
the people that I serve, I was seeing symptoms that

(10:49):
I never seen them experience or display the symptoms of
depression and heightened anxiety. Because now many people who were
so bid, like I just mentioned, being that overfunctioned or
not test master, now they are they don't have all
of those things to do. They're at home, sitting with themselves,
sometimes in silence. They might not have much to do,

(11:12):
and so now they're sitting with thoughts and emotions that
they have never experienced, and they don't know what to
do with them. And it frightened a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Some people have an option to watch this interview or
listen to this interview. How can they reach out to you?

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Shares They can reach out to me by visiting sharise
nance dot com.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Saris Nance dot com. And when they go to their website,
what's the experience are the user experience getting when they
go to your website.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
So when they go to my website right away, they're
going to know who I am and what I do.
And then there are different tabs that they can click
on their assessments for burnout, capassion fatigue, which is something
that many of us in this not many of us,
I will say all of us in industry of helping
professionals are prone to because we absorb the stress and

(12:08):
the traumas of the people that we serve. So there's
an opportunity to get information and resources on that. There's
an opportunity to link to my private practice website. There's
an opportunity to book me for workshops and consultations and
books as.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Well, which is awesome. Which is awesome. Now when I
look at it, it's another company you have which you this,
you co founder with, somebody, your friend from college, your roommate.
Vitamin C Healing. Now, when you hear the word vitamin
C automatic thing appeal, But obviously vitamin C is also

(12:47):
something that we all need that makes us feel good
on a daily basis. They said, vitamin C, drink that
on juice, get that vitamin C. So you can be
up and running. What was the name, the reason behind
your name, Vitamin see and then the word healing.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yes. So it started with the book, my very first book,
Vitamin C Healing for the Mind Body, And so I
always wanted to write a book. And when I finally
got the time and the courage, and I didn't know
what to call it. And I was telling my husband
when I was thinking, He's like, sounds like vitamin C.
And I'm like, oh, I love that. And so I
wrote this book, and then I wanted to write a

(13:24):
few other books. And one of my mentors said you
should make vitamin C a brand, and I'm like, I
never thought of that. She's like, yeah, it was your books.
And then you can start speaking and I'm like, oh,
just vitamin see alung doesn't feel enough, feel like enough.
And then we looked at the book title and we're like,
Vitamin C Healing because it embodies everything that we're trying

(13:48):
to do and an impact that we're trying to make
in the community. So it started off as just strictly
literature based, and then it evolved into being more niched,
where we're focused on those helping profession and those leaders
and those organizations that are at risk for compassion, fatigue,
and burnout.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Now, Jeriz, you said something interesting. What fear was stopping you?
And that's one question, and how did you overcome that fear?

Speaker 2 (14:16):
So one of I'm a quotes person. I read a lot,
I listened to a lot of podcasts, and one of
my favorite quotes is saying is feel the fear and
do it anyway. Fear is a natural response. We all
have it. Even though I've been doing this work for
a really long time, I still experience some fear. But

(14:37):
I tell myself, Okay, by not doing people don't get
to hear your message. They don't get what they need.
You have something important and impact and possibly impactful and
powerful that can change someone's life. So it's not about me.
It's about what they need to hear, what they may

(14:58):
need to receive. Ahead of one who was undergoing breast
cancer read my book and see Healing for the Mind
Bonnie and so, and she sent me a message. She
wrote me a letter telling me that it helped her
get through her treatment. I'm like, that's why I needed
to write the book.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
That's really amazing, because when you're writing a book, you
know it's a journey. And a lot of people don't
understand because you know, you start writing and all of
a sudden you start peeling back the stories. They get deeper.
And what was the most engaging part of satisfying part
of you writing your book.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Maybe when it was done, because it's like finally got
it done. But there's a chapter knowledge of Self. And
my husband gave me a lot of insight about that.
He shared some of his stories in his life. He's
thirteen years older than me, so he has more stories,
a little bit more wisdom, and so I took some
of his stories and his experiences along with mine and

(16:00):
I put it in that chapter. And people love that
chapter because it's real and it's relatable and they can
they can relate to it. They see themselves in that chapter.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Don't go anywhere. We will be right back with more
insights from Money Making Conversations master Class. Welcome back to
Money Making Conversation Master Class with me Rashawn McDonald. That's
really important. Everyone says that now I'm gonna be honest
with you when I start hearing social workers or this

(16:30):
is money Making Conversation master Class. Now got to go
to that money now because part of my intro was
disparities in the black communities and pay inequities in the
mental health field. I've never heard anybody roll out of
the mineral health field talk about money, money, money, money, honey,
what disparities? But so it's it's the mental health feeld

(16:57):
a passion field or can one generate revenue that one will?
Field is competitive for income and other fields.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I love to talk about this, yes and yes, yes
to both. We can have both. We can care deeply
and earn abundantly. It doesn't have to be one or
the other. There's a T shirt that I've seen many
of my my colleagues wearing and means posted on social media,

(17:27):
and it makes me cringe. We're not in it for
the outcome. We're in it for the ink. No, we're
not in it for the income. We're in it for
the outcome. And I'm like, why can't we be in
it for both? You know? Like we talk about serving
from a full well, serving from a place of abundance,
being a sustainable healer, not being burned out. A big
part of that is financial. I can't help you if

(17:51):
I don't know how I'm paying my bills. I can't
help you if I can't afford a squall day. And
many people might think that that's a luxury. Sure, maybe
it is. But when I'm sitting here processing trauma a day,
absorbing psychosocial stressors, and I can afford one hundred dollars
one hundred and fifty dollars massage, and I have a

(18:13):
master's degree and a license, that's a huge problem. So
we can have both. And this is something that's not
talked about in school, and when it is brought up,
there's this, Okay, if you're getting this field, just prepare
for you're not going to make any money. And that
can be true depending on satorday. That's a motivator, right,

(18:34):
And I rejected that, you know from the day I
heard that, like, well, I love the work that I do,
but I've worked in nonprofits. You know, they don't have
a lot of funding, so they can't. But it's like, okay,
so what can you do where you can do the
work you love and make money, you know, make a
good living for yourself. And for me, it was starting

(18:55):
my own and just making myself heave. And I have
always had that entrepreneurial spirit and so leveraging my experience,
my knowledge, my expertise, my licensure in a place where
I can make money and I can serve, and I'm

(19:16):
modeling to my colleagues that this is doable. I had
one of my colleagues reach out to me and say,
you know, I know when we reached out to you
and we wanted you to come in and speak, and
you gave us your price, and they said we couldn't
afford it. We value what she does, but I appreciate
you for really putting your foot down because you advocated
for us. Like while she's a social worker and she's

(19:38):
saying that this is her price, and she's not wavering
on that. So I'm hoping that we can do more
of that because if we've been together and do that thing,
have you can't tell us that you want a subject
matter speaker and an expert in mental health. But most
of the time a respecting us to do that for free.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
That's not cool my mindor is sociology. My degree was mathematics,
so you know I had that. I followed that math
because I saw money, But the most inspiring part of
my college was sociology. If really, I would tell anybody
if I had to do it all over again, I
probably would definitely got an undergraduate degree and sociology and

(20:18):
probably would have got a master's for sure, because it
was it was it's about understanding people, It's about understanding patterns.
It's about being able to understand why people think like this.
And I think that, you know, I would tell anybody
it should be sociology should be a required minor for

(20:40):
all degrees because it really really will help people learn
about each other, communicate with each other, and also understand
there's value in the boat rising together with everybody being lifted. Yes,
that's what we're talking about right now. We were talking

(21:01):
about Vita and sea healing. You're trying to lift the community. Now,
if you lift the Black community, that means all other
communities are going to rise as well.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Talk to it about lifting communities. Yeah. So, and that's
just with the services that I'm offering and the message
that I'm receiving that I'm delivering to people. There have
been so many collaborations and messages that we put out there.
I'm thinking of one where we did a It was

(21:32):
called charge your Work because one of my friends and
I were just talking about how in our community it's
almost like we well, it's not almost like we do.
We operate from a scarcity mindset where there is this
this this fear. We're constantly in survival. I mean it's
interwoven in our DNA epigenetics is real, it's passed down

(21:55):
through generations, through through slavery, where there's this like hypervigilance,
especially when it comes to money. We don't even want
to have conversations if I won't be asking me about
my money or what's in my account, So that transfers
into when it's time for us to tell someone what
our price is. And the more that we have these conversations,

(22:19):
the more that we support each other in these conversations,
the more we are able to break that barrier right
and just come to a place where we can get
to abundance, where we can do both, where we can
do this mission based work and we can live beyond survival.

(22:41):
We can thrive.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
And thriving is what we're talking about here. I'm speaking
of Cherish Nance. She has two companies. Once she has
with a partner from college, Hand in Hand Counseling Services.
Her company, her baby, as she says, is vitamin see healing.
We're the world of Zoom. When the world of you
based in Pittsburgh, how can one reach out to you
and say they're in Miami, or they're in Texas or

(23:04):
in California. How do you provide services?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well, they can reach out to me sharis Nance dot com,
and I provide a lot of services via Zoom, a
lot of virtual meetings. In the beginning, it was uncomfortable
when COVID started, but now it's become a part of
my workflow, even for people here right here in Pittsburgh.
So the location will never be a barrier. If you

(23:29):
want to work with me.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Cool, I'm gonna ask you a series of questions. You
how compassion, fatigue and burnout is silently draining the workforce?
Help me out with that.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
So many ways. Something that I've noticed is that when
COVID hit, people were more open to all things mental health,
so they were forced to look at it. And when
they were forced to look at it, they began to
call on me more. And some of the patterns that

(24:00):
I've seen is that compassion addressing compassion fatigue and providing
support to your staff and your organization. It's not some
feel good service we're talking about. You will save your
company millions of dollars. The research shows that compassion fatigue
and burnout is costant. Unaddressed compassion fatigue and burnout is

(24:23):
costing companies millions of dollars each year. You have staff
who are showing up, they're exhausted, they're cynical, they're resentful,
they're quietly quitting, then that's going to show up, and
how they serve the community is going to show up
in their productivity. And then if you have to let
them go unexpectedly, now you have to spend money on

(24:45):
training a new staff. And I know firsthand how expensive
you know, time and money it is to train a
new staff.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's really important that people hear what you're saying because
I always tell people when you small entrepreneurs or even
people in business, you got to have free things. You
got to have an accountant, somebody help you with your money,
project your money, do your taxes on time. Then you
got to have legal contracts, none of that online googling

(25:15):
contracts and try to reduct tape or pace information and
the last ones you just talked about. HR got to
understand human resources. If you can't afford a human resource person,
some of the payroll companies that you can go with
they have they have human resource tied to their account.
Or hire an experienced person and pay them a very

(25:36):
small fee to being a consultant. Because I'm telling you
hr I did with stress all the time. As Sreech,
you deal with stress all the time, and sometimes it's
tied to the people that you hire. It's tied to
them making you feel comfortable when you wake up, that
when you get to work or you take a sick day,

(25:58):
that you don't have to be worrying about your business.
That's where we're at and that's what we're talking about
when you look at the company. Vitamin Sea Healing is
approaching that holistic approach to look at the stuff that
we assume is normal but maybe killing us mentally.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. We we function in survival for
so long that survival we're functional because.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Because you said that key functioning survival being a black person,
a person of color, we are functioning and we know
we are functioning in a stress level. I tell you, yes,
I don't care how expensive car, expensive car, I've had
a cop car comes alongside of me, I wonder if
they're gonna pull me over. That's the stress factor that

(26:48):
we're talking about this band.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's not normal. That is not normal, even though it's
been happening for a long time. It's not normal.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Right, I go into my neighborhood. I know I belong
in that neighborhood. Again, somebody can look at me, A
white person can look at me, and I'm going why
they look at Again, that's not normal because you introduce
the stress into your life. Now, when we talk about
in the end, this can create burnout. Wellness is wealth

(27:16):
because burnout is expensive. I've upgraded my car, I've upgraded
my lifestyle. How do I stop myself? Series or anybody
listening who are done? All?

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right?

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Theeds to be successful, but they still deteriorating themselves with
these reactionary moments that they should not have to be
dealing with. But the color of our skin stops us
from thinking otherwise.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, Well, it begins with we have to be willing
to and I want to be miuthful not to invalidate
our experiences. But you know, we're speaking on it on
an individual level, and then we can speak on it systematically.
So if we're talking about it individually, we have to Okay,
what's in my control. What is it that I can

(28:03):
do to do matt internal work, And for me, that's
where therapy comes into place, because we have to create
a foundation, and that foundation is seeking support. I know
many of us still have a hard time asking for help,
and we have to ask ourselves, how has that been
serving me? Because yes, even in twenty twenty five, about
to be twenty twenty six, being a black person in

(28:25):
this country, it doesn't I think Chris Rock said it
on his comedy show when he said to somebody in
an audience, like, Hey, I'm a black man and I'm rich,
but you're a white person. I might have more money
than you, but you still wouldn't trade places with me.
That is very real. I experienced similar anxiety that you
were I freeze up. I know, you know everything is legit,

(28:47):
you know I'm fine, but I still freeze up. And
that is very real. That is a part of our DNA.
So we spend a lot of time education, educating people
on why that's happening and what you could do in
the moment. Like I said, individually, there are techniques that
you could do to calm your nervous system, to calm
yourself down. But just understanding it's interwoven in our DNA,

(29:07):
and then there are things systemically that contribute to that
that makes it really hard for us to just try
to find some peace. And notice isn't about us being victims,
like these are facts, like there are terms like epigenetics,
how it's interwoven in our DNA.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, one of the questions you presented to me was
betting on myself was the best investment I ever made?
Before you respond to that because you started your first
company hand in hand with your roommate from college. Did
you have your company now, Vitamin C Healing? When did
you bet on yourself?

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I made the biggest bet on myself in twenty seventeen
when I took that leak and left my full time job.
As I mentioned earlier, entrepreneurship was always in that spirit.
My dad's side of family. They were family full of entrepreneurs.
I watched them how they ran their business. I heard
the story my grandfather carried garbage for twenty something years,

(30:08):
my grandmother cleaned houses, and they just had this dream.
They've opened many bars and clubs. They're well known. They
were well known in the community. They both passed on
and they just showed me that it was possible. The
questions that my grandmother would have asked me at eight
years old about how I see myself and what does

(30:30):
that look like for me? She was helping me to
create this vision and this picture, and I visualized myself
walking into an office with my Chanel suit and a
Chanel person, these hills and just being able to control
my own destiny. So it was always in me. And
I've tried MLMs, you know, all of those things. I've

(30:50):
done those things, and while it didn't work out, they
instilled a lot of those values in me. So when
it was time for me to leave, I had a
strategy I felt it about and it's like, I just
need to take that leap because it's just not meant
for me. I don't I'm never going to tell anybody
you need to leave your job and start a business,
but it was for me. It's something that I've always

(31:11):
wanted to do. And even on my hardest days, I
know that I am walking in my purpose. I notice
is what God put me on this earth to do.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Wow, that's that's fantastic, you know because like I said,
you're honest about yourself. You said, I'm a therapist who
has a therapist. At what point in your life did
you realize, Okay, to be a better me, I need
a version of me to help me get there.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
So I did it off and on for years. But
when I was coming to that crossroads, when I was
deciding to take that leap from my full time job
to my business school time, that was still a scary
time for me. It's like, well, I know we have
another income with my husband, but still I've been working
my entire life. So that's when I knew I needed it.

(32:01):
And then I took a break. And then when COVID
hit and things got crazy and I lost my dad,
It's like, Okay, I really need it now, and I
have not stopped going since then.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Charis fantastic, you know Pittsburgh Steeler fan. I'm just gonna
throw that out now, y'all because the interview is over.
But again, so Aaron Rodgers, she's hanging out there, she's
trying to make it happen.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
But again, hey all, you need to rip and win
some games consistently and your defense show up, then we
can talk. But again, as we close out the interview, Scharis,
how can you get in touch with.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
You charisnas dot com Again.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Thank you very much for coming on Money Making Conversation Masterclass.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
This has been money Making Conversations Masterclass with Rashaun McDonald
thanks to I guess and our audience. Visit Moneymaking Conversations
dot com to listen and register to be a guest.

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