November 23, 2021 • 47 mins
On this episode of Earnin’ It, we meet the head coaches and owners behind the push to get more talented women on the field — and in the front office. Host Sam Rapoport explores the power of diverse voices in the locker room with Tampa Bay’s Super Bowl champion head coach Bruce Arians and owner Darcie Glazer Kassewitz. Sam also welcomes Buffalo Bills head coach Sean McDermott and owner Kim Pegula. And she’s joined by the legendary Billie Jean King, who knows a few things about opening doors for women.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On February seven, two thousand twenty one, Darcy Glazer Castuits
watched her Tampa Bay Buccaneers make history. The Tampa Bay
Buccaneers have a second Super Bowl title in franchise history,
and Tom Brady doesn't pass the torch quite yet to Mahomes,
does it even though you're looking at the greatest right there.
(00:22):
The whole experience was totally surreal to be the Super
Bowl and to be on your own church. But I
looked over and I saw Sarah Thomas walking by and
really just struck me. Really, it was amazing. Darcy owns
the Buccaneers, and not only did her team win the
championship at their home stadium, three women made history too.
Sarah Thomas was the first woman to officiate a Super
(00:44):
Bowl and the Bucks had two women coaching. On this
episode of Earning Itt, we meet the powerful voices in
the NFL behind the push to get more talented women
on the field and in the front office. Plus Billy
Jean King. When I told my three year old son
that I was interviewing you today, I said, I'm interviewing
Billy Jan King and said does she live in a castle?
And I said, oh, does she ever in all of
(01:05):
our minds and say, I sit down with the legendary
Billy Jean King, who knows a few things about opening
doors for women, and yes she's a football fan. I
want to start the show off by setting the scene
for you guys. It's Super Bowl fifty five. The Tampa
Bay Buccaneers are playing the Kansas City Chiefs. The nation
(01:28):
is fixated on a quarterback matchup of epic proportions. This
is a matchup that we're gonna be talking about. I
think for a long time we're gonna touch out in
this game. I think both these quarterbacks aren't gonna lose
the game. Really, they're gonna both get their team back
in it. We're coming down to the wire today, Jim
and Buck's co owner Darcy Glazer Cassowitz is soaking it
all in. After the game, Darcy, I texted you at
(01:49):
around ten sev PM congratulating you on this incredible super Bowl,
historic super Bowl, and you texted me back one word
her story for our fans. H E R S t
O R Y her story. Why did you text me that?
I mean, we're I think at that point we were
in the locker room and everybody was you know, just
(02:11):
going crazy and again I'm seeing the coaches there, um,
you know, seeing Lorie the first time after the game,
and it was just it was just incredible. It was
an incredible Everything about that game was incredible. I mean
we won, you know, we won with the most diverse
coaching staff in the entire NFL. We had, um, you know,
(02:31):
two female coaches on the team. It was just it
was spectacular. Darcy and her brothers owned the Bucks as
a family, and while it's no secret that football hasn't
always been the most welcoming space for women, she's been
working to change that. It's not that hiring women as
a priority, it's that we want to make sure that
(02:52):
our pool of candidates is as diverse as possible so
we could pick the best person. We're looking for the
best people here at the Buccaneers. That that that's just
where we start. And because we are searching and really
creating these pools of candidates, we are finding that women
are filling these roles. Yeah, for us, it's just as
(03:14):
Darcy said, let's find the best people, but you have
to open up the pool to find the best. That's
Buccaneers head coach Bruce arians I think for me, coming
as an outsider, it was normal. You know. I look
at all the vice presidents and the people in charge
who were female, and it's just normal here coach. Women
have been disenfranchised from the football side for a long time.
(03:35):
We're all working to change that. Right when you knew
you were committed to this and that you wanted this done,
how did you find females who coached football? I was
asked the question one time in Arizona about did I
think women could coach in the NFL? And I had
seen Dot Murphy coach and Tis Junior College back in
the eighties and nineties, so and she was one of
the best receiver coaches I ever cliniced with. So I said, hey, yeah,
(03:56):
I know they can. It's just creating an opportunities and
getting opportunities. And uh one of the arena team coaches
called me said, look, are you very serious about this?
I think I have somebody can really do a great
job for you. And it was Jen Welter, and UH
met her super qualified, just a ball of energy and
and came in and did a heck of a job
for our training camp. And then I knew that I
(04:17):
knew it was possible. Interestingly, the majority of our coaches
who are female started out as tackle football players. This
is one of the biggest misconceptions that I run into,
this idea that women can't coach football because they don't
play at a high level. But right now in North
America there are thousands of female professional tackle football players.
One of the most respective people in this business for
(04:37):
me is Joe Pendry and and Joe is works at
Alabama now, but he was the Birmingham Iron general manager.
And I'm speaking at a clinic at you a bad
and he said, are you really looking for, you know,
a female coach? I said, yeah, I really want when
I really like to have one a d line. He said,
I've got the perfect person for you, and uh, and
(04:58):
it was Low. He's talking about coach Low Locust, who
ended up getting that job on his staff. She and
strength coach Morale Javadifar became the first female coaches to
win a Super Bowl. Low is clear that her priority
is not being the first, it's being the best. I've
never operated under the premise of you know, I'm gonna
go and I'm gonna do something nobody else did. That
(05:20):
was never my motivation. I just wanted to get better.
I wanted the d lines that I was in charge
of to be absolutely obnoxious and feared and hated across
any league that I coached, and I needed to know
how to do that better than anyone else that I
was coming up against. Darcy says, what we're seeing is
just the beginning. We spent a lot of time thinking about, UM,
what we can do for women in this space. There's
(05:43):
so many female fans who want to follow their passion
for football into a career in the NFL. So we
do a lot of things. You know. We started UM
the Women's Summit for Careers in Football, which was really
taking what you're doing a combine what you spearheaded, uh,
Sam Um, and we took that on the road because
we thought that you did was such an unbelievable idea.
(06:04):
And so now we have forty three women that we
we talked to and have leadership in the Buccaneers UM
kind of helping them along the way. And Uh, we
have the Buccaneers Girls Preseason Classic, and that's the largest
girls high school flag football tournament in the nation with
over a thousand student athletes and fifty teams. And we
(06:26):
think it's really important to support and validate these these
female athletes, to show them that we believe in them
and the sport is for them. We talked about the
perception that women aren't respected in the locker room and
this idea that they're only token hires. Okay, so we've
heard stereotypes of female coaches. You know, that they've they've
never played, or they don't they don't know the sport
(06:46):
as well as men, or how could they possibly coach men?
You know, we spoke to some other head coaches who
mentioned that they were a little nervous to hire females
for the first time. They didn't know what to expect.
Your reaction, coach, what was your first reaction? Put them
on the board, do every kind of interview you would
do for anybody else you would hire, and uh, if
they've got the answers to the test, hire them and
(07:07):
don't don't don't worry about male or female. Is this
the best person for this job that I'm to have
opened right now? And uh, you're gonna get the best
person every single time if you just have open ears
and open eyes, right and so on that point for
both of you, what's holding women back? In football, do
you think. I think there's not that many job openings,
(07:30):
and uh, it's a very very competitive business. So uh,
you've got to be you. You've got to have a
heck of a resume, and you better do a great
job in your interview, just like anybody. I think at
the thirty two head coaching interviews, Um, there's only thirty
two and uh so I think when you open that
pool up, hopefully in college and in high school, that
(07:50):
starts spreading, so that pipeline gets bigger. Um. But it's
more opportunity because they're very, very few jobs. Darcie, what
about you women on the football side, the business side,
I think time is is the barrier at this point.
I think it's a very exciting time right now. I
think that a lot of more women are being hired
(08:11):
as coaches or scouts, um, and different aspects of football.
So there is progress being made and as time goes on,
there will be more women in the NFL. So you know,
women are not competing against other women for these jobs.
Like like Bruce says, to work in the NFL is
a phenomenal opportunity. You're competing against the world, So you
(08:33):
you have to be at the top. Here's a stat
that some people find surprising. Of NFL fans are women,
and Darcy gets this. A few years ago. I was
in a women's event and we were talking about how
at the time half our vice presidents were women at
the Buccaneers, and there was really this collective gasp in
the room that people were shocked to hear that so
(08:55):
many women were working at our team and really floored me.
It occurred to me at that moment that women don't
realize maybe that there's all of these opportunities in the NFL.
And it was at that moment that it became very
important for me to create tremendous awareness of the opportunities
that there are for women. Darcy's in the meeting room
(09:16):
telling us, Nope, not good enough. We can do better
than that. And you know, absolutely love your drive for
getting this right. Coach. I want to bring you to
life a little bit, because, first of all, you're hilarious.
Everyone who we spoke to you mentioned we were talking
he said that you're absolutely hilarious. Um, you know, kids
in Tampa Bay now dress up as you. There is
a school that we've been following that dress up as
(09:37):
coach low and coach m Day and you know they
dress up like you on Sundays. Can you talk about
the impact that what you're doing is having on young
kids in Florida. Yeah, I just hope they don't have
a cocktail in your hand. Um, it's it's amazing. Uh
you know when I was in Arizona was Florida. Steve Kaimer,
(09:58):
general manager, he said, you can't you gotta you can't wait.
I can't wait to show you my son. He's been
working on his outfit all week for Halloween and it
came by. He had the headset on, he had a
little gotee on, he had the game plan and he
started the first thing. He says, oh, ship time about
(10:20):
his mom just cracked up. Left. So he's going to
be you all night. So and uh so so but
he Yeah, it's amazing. It's it's very flattering to see
to see that. It's amazing young girls wearing their headsets
on Halloween dressed up. His coach arean because of what
you're doing. It's fantastic. Coach. You had the opportunity to
meet Billy Jean King recently, who lauded the efforts of
the organization you mentioned she was one of your idols.
(10:42):
Oh god, one of the greatest champions of my generation.
I mean Billy Jane King was she was it? I mean, uh,
I wasn't not a tennis player, but I was a great,
great fan of hers, and uh just the way she
played and uh, you know, getting to meet her was,
you know, one of my bucket list things. And uh,
(11:03):
to to see her and that no risk it no
biscuit T shirt was absolutely amazing. I was at that
game and can confirm that he was very much fanboying
over Billy Jean coach arians. As someone who understands the
power of equality in sports, I grew up in an
environment where we were all athletes. You've got in the
locker room, there wasn't there's no black, white, brown who
was just this is our team. And I think part
(11:26):
of the thing for me of of giving opportunities was
not getting one. You know, I thought I should have
been a head coach a long time ago, but I
had to wait till sixty and Chapergano to get sick,
uh for me to get a chance to be a
head coach. So when I think people need an opportunity,
I'm more than willing to open that door for them.
I asked him what he thought the league would look
(11:48):
like in ten years. For me, I think just continued growth,
continued growth in those areas were talking about, you know,
minority head coaches, more women on the field, more women
in scouting, um everywhere in the organizations. Maybe as general managers.
I think there's some people right now are very very
qualified to be general managers. So every every asset of
(12:09):
of the football side of the building, I just want
to see it continue to grow. There are hundreds and
thousands of women in this country who want to work
for the NFL and who are qualified to work in
the NFL. You all have a program directed at these women.
Do you both have advice on how women in this
country can get involved in football if they want to
get started, Yes, stay ahead of the curve. If you
(12:30):
want to get in coaching, you better what jobs gonna
be open next year, not what helps now. And and
get ahead of the curve. Who who might get that
this is what I've done my whole career. Who might
get that job? And make sure he knows who I
am and and knows my resume? And uh, this is tough,
tough business. And coaching and uh, there's so many candidates
(12:51):
and it's all about who you know and make sure
you know everybody. Did someone say Billy Jean King Surprise
coach arians, She joins us end talks about you in
a few plus join me in the owners suite in Buffalo,
where I asked the Bill's head coach if he was
nervous to tell his players he was bringing a female
coach on board. His honest answer. Next, I want to
(13:21):
take you guys back to a moment in time that's
stuck with me. It was after the Bill's Week one
victory over the Jets. Take a listen to Buffalo Bill's
head coach Sean McDermott. What a blessing. Huh, what a blessing? Man?
A group, a group of men and women in that
locker room. I just want to get that out, man.
Just I'll tell you what. I'm so proud of that group.
This might not seem like a huge deal to a
(13:42):
lot of people, but to the women who are working
in football, it meant a lot. He said to the
men and women in that locker room. It's actually the
first thing I talked about when I sat down with
coach McDermott for the show. It sent a message to
your staff and to all of us that we belong here.
And so I'm sitting here in Orchard Park at the
Buffalo Bills facility, in the office of Kim Pagoula, owner
(14:05):
and president of the Buffalo Bills, first woman, first woman
of color to hold the position of president in the
NFL and in hockey as well, and coach Sean McDermott,
who is a leader in the placement and promotion of
female coaches in the NFL, and the man who every
female coach in the country wants to work for. I
don't know if you know that, Kim, coach, thanks for
chatting with me today. You all are leading the league
(14:26):
and hiring women from the NFL women's careers in football
forum with sixteen total opportunities that you have afforded to
women in that amount of time. Kim, what's going on here? Well?
I think one of the big obvious elephant in the
room is I'm a female. I don't I'm a woman,
and I think that it is important you know that
(14:47):
we represent, you know, what we are as owners, and
I think that that is very very important to myself,
important to my husband, Um, and we just not something
we want to talk about, but something we want to show.
And I think that being able to have an influence,
being able to to mentor and help other women, I
think it's important to us. But one because I am
(15:07):
a female and because UM, I feel like this is
I feel like I belong here, and I want other
women to feel the same way. Kim was one of
the first people to embrace the idea of a pipeline
for female coaches and administrators in the league, along with
coach McDermott. I want to get personal with this next
question because I think it was the first time you
spoke at the Women's Forum. We put a photo up
on the big screen of your daughter, and I can
(15:29):
tell this story, but I'd prefer to hear it from you.
Talk to me about your daughter, Maddie. What what's seeing
that photo meant and what her impact the influence she
had on you as a coach. Yeah, way to pull
out the heartstrings here, Sam, right away. Right. I was
expecting a nice softball lob pitch coming in here. I
grew up in a family of all boys, and so
(15:50):
having my first child be a girl, it was an
adjustment for me, like, how are we going to do this?
And Maddie dressed up for how Halloween? Her parade at
Halloween or excuse me, her parade at school for Halloween.
As a coach, so I'm working through what we normally
work through in October and my wife sends me a
(16:11):
picture of Maddie no words attached, and I was just like,
oh my gosh, right, it just got me and and
so um, seeing her do that basically to me says
why not? Like why not? And and so from that
(16:33):
moment on, it's really come full circle for me and
be like, hey, if if if I can do it,
why can't my daughter do it? If Kim can do it,
why can't many other females do it? Right? And so um,
that was an eye opening experience for me and one
that I'll never forget and one that has motivated me
(16:54):
to help in any way that I can. It was fantastic.
And that was the season where you hired Phoebe Scheckterre.
That was the the first full time coach you brought
in here. Uh you know, And and I'm Maddie saw
Phoebe on the sidelines, right, so she finally saw someone
that looked like her that could represent the field that
she's interested in. And I spoke to Mattie yesterday and
she still wants to be a head coach, which was incredible. Um,
but talk to me, coach about the evolution. You know,
(17:16):
you've had three female coaches here in six different opportunities
over your span of head coach here. Talk about your
evolution of head coach and watching the progression of these
women in the sport. Yeah, you know, Sam, it's been
interesting because I gotta I gotta admit early on I
was very um, I don't know, anxious or just kind
of apprehensive how this was going to work. Um. I
(17:37):
think the NFL number one has done a great job
of accommodating UM through facilities, whether it be in the training,
training facility, stadiums home, in a way that it's not
a it's not a it's not a hurdle anymore that
we have to talk about or get over. Um. They
have all those resources available and facilities available, So now
(17:57):
it's it's just become. And I was thinking about this yesterday.
It's no longer unique to see women at a minimum
on the coaching staff, and it's no longer unique, not
only from from our points of view, but also from
the players points of view, which I think is really cool.
I gotta give a shout out to coach here because
one of the my favorite stories is when we did
(18:19):
have Pebe that first year and then she came back
the second year. So I was like, oh, why why
is she here again? And coach said, because you know,
last year was on offense. This year, I want her
to get experience on defense. So the fact that is
just not a check the box and like, Okay, we'll
get a female and then how she goes, what good
luck to her and all that, but the fact that
he really wanted to develop her as a coach and
(18:42):
give her as money, as much opportunity to develop the
whole game. Um, I think it speaks violues for you.
That's such a good point, Kim, because you know the
coach that came the female coach that came here after
Phoebe was Kali Brownson. And you know, we and she
talked a lot about how you developed her for her
to be in the position she's in now at Cleveland Browns,
in a prestigious coaching position. So it's not only about
(19:03):
coming in here and experiencing and having a clipboard and
doing intern responsibilities. It's about developing them. So you're kind
of developing a female coaching tree in the NFL right now,
where they're all going to introviute themselves to you at
some point, So you know, it is it is remarkable.
It is remarkable. So I'm talked to as a little
about your experience with Kelly Brownson and and how how
she performed at the at the Bills when she was here. Yeah,
(19:23):
So second it was our second time, second go around
with a female on the coaching staff, as you mentioned, Sam,
and what a phenomenal job. And and and I think
it's easier for the second person than it was for
the first person. And that's how it should be, right,
So easier for us, easier for Cally in this case
because Phoebe went before her, and she used Phoebe and
(19:45):
you right give yourself from credit, sells some credit here.
What a great launching pad, right for all those that
are now coming after Phoebe at the Bills and across
the league. Um, And I've gotten the kind of sneaky
suspicion that everyone's kind of reaching out to each other
and using you and again Phoebe and Callie is hey,
(20:07):
how did it work, how did it go? What about this?
What about that? And I think you guys are great
ambassadors for again all those that follow I mentioned it
in our first two episodes, but it's really difficult to
get a football job in the NFL, especially for women.
When men try to get these jobs in the NFL,
there's infrastructure in place to help them, connections, scholarships, training programs.
Until we started to create a pipeline, those opportunities didn't
(20:30):
exist for women. One thing that that surprised me early
on as his ownership is how close connected everybody is.
So you know, you talked to one one coach and
he was, you know, a grad student, when this coach
you know at the league or at another club, was
the head coach, or they work with others. So it's
very close knit, right. It's just this very small circle
(20:50):
of of men and coaching in the same situation, the
same football world. Women don't have that, right, But I
think what we're starting to see with the amount of
women now at club thanks to not just us but
other clubs around the league that are getting those women,
I think now we can start getting that that tree
that you know, whether it's from from a male coach
(21:10):
or from another female creating that network of so that
hopefully someday Kelly is going to be making those hiring decisions.
And we can't downplay, we can't downplay the importance of
female ownership in this league. Right there not that many
female owners. The number is growing certainly. But you know,
when when you and Terry bought the team back in,
that was something a tone that you set from the top, right,
(21:32):
And so I know Coach is very passionate about it,
Brandon being Bills GM is very passionate about it. But
how do you set the tone from the top, Kim,
how do you let people know that this is your
expectation and that this is who the Buffalo Bills are? Well,
I think that it was through action, right, a lot
of not just talk, but through actions. As I just mentioned, Coach,
you can attest I've been in a lot of our
(21:52):
our decision making meetings when it's just been you and Brandon,
Terry and I and so I think from right from
day one, from the intervie you process to the draft
to you know, difficult decisions on players. Am I sitting
there telling these guys what to do, no, thankfully not,
but having the presence being in those areas, in those meetings. UM.
(22:12):
I think by action just set the tone and that
at that I give credit to my husband for making
sure that I'm in those meetings and having those discussions
and hearing what coach and and our personnel have to say. UM.
And I think that really kind of people know that
I'm there, I'm in that meeting, and I think that
sets to tell more than just talking about it. So
(22:34):
other head coaches, not only in football but in sports
in general, are scared of the unknown of what if
I bring in a female coach, what could happen? Right,
What's going to happen in the locker room, what's gonna
happen with her interactions with players? And I think every
head coach thinks about that first. But you went and
did it anyway, and you've experienced it now, So not
just talking to other head coaches, but I really want
(22:55):
to try to dispel the myth around. It's no big deal.
It's just like any other coach, right, and they they
act professionally and they do their job, and so I
would love to kind of hear you speak to that right.
I were you nervous about everything? And was there anything
that you and we're nervous about that didn't happen? No?
I mean really, Um, it went a lot smoother than
I thought. Um, I was nervous about some things, apprehensive,
(23:18):
as I mentioned earlier. But I think it really goes
back to what Kim mentioned about, like why not why
not include the entire talent pool into making us as
good as we can be here at the Buffalo Bills.
I mean, if you, and we've said this before, if
you basically cut it in half, you're only getting you know,
(23:39):
half the people to pull from who could be the
best of the best. This is the NFL professional sports,
we're talking the best of the best. And Kim could
tell you, I mean, building a staff is so hard
to get good people that work hard and are smart, um,
and so like I made it a point when we
(24:00):
got here not to excuse me, like just hire my friends,
which happens right, or just hire people that I knew. Um.
And thankfully for Kim and Terry, they've allowed me to
um shuffle the staff to get it to where we
are now, and that includes you know, we're going to
do it right it includes women, includes minorities, and includes
(24:24):
I mean everyone, right, And so, as Kim has heard
me say numerous times, I just want the best. I
was lucky enough to watch a game with you recently, Kim,
and I feel that with your energy when you're watching
that game, as there is excitement, there's anxiety, but there's
such passion. And that's really the part of football that
that's what brings this country together. That's why we all
do it, right, is that excitement. And I cannot agree more.
(24:46):
I heard an interesting story about you on game day
one time where um, after the games, not to disrupt
the coaching staff, but you went into the coaching boom
and you were asking about how plays were called, how
they were drawn up, how they were I didn't ask
that during the game. After the game, after the game down,
you waited and you went to talk to the coaches,
and you know, I heard from from the coaches saying, like,
(25:08):
how cool is that? Like that probably doesn't happen anywhere
else right where you're the owner of the team and
you're in there saying like teaching about entry level coaching.
I got that idea from our head of I T.
Dan Evans, because he said, hey, if you really want
to know what's happening, put the headsets on. So I
didn't make a big deal of it because you know,
it's game day. But I was, you know, very conscious
of doing it in a game that I would say
(25:28):
every game matters, but you know, it was not a
contentious type of placement, you know, where it was a
must win for us. So I did do it near
at the end of the season, and I didn't make
a big deal of it because I just kind of
snuck into the room and put on the headphones. Oh
my gosh, Like, how freaking confusing. There's like a completely
(25:51):
different language, the speed of how everything guests decided and
the talking and I'm still trying to figure out, okay,
whose voice was out again? And next thing I know,
the plays all over and now the defense is talking.
I don't want to coach, and but I think a
healthy respect for what they do and the only way
you could really lived through that is getting those experiences.
(26:11):
I mean to me, that's leadership, right is you can
sit in this office all day and not speak to
your staff, but going to the stadium after the game
is completed and being in their shoes, so you can
see what they go through and how how they get
criticized so highly for decisions that they have to make
in milliseconds, very very quickly. It's it's remarkable. I don't
know how to do it any other way, right, I
don't know how to be anything else, But then who
(26:33):
I am. I was fortunate to have successes as well
as obviously Terry Um later on in our life. So
I people see me, like I said, the way I
am is this how we've always been through our host
If you go home, you'll see the dogs there. If
you come to the office, you'll see the dogs there.
A couple of your coaches told me that they saw
you I get Wegmans and sweatpants, and well, have you
(26:58):
been to Wegman's. I've heard you have told me time
and time again that Wan is the champ. I have
not been there yet, but I definitely plan to make
a trip after Oh yeah, no, no, I mean I'd
go there and anything, because because it's a great experience
to go to Wigman. So that's not a chart at all.
I have to try it out absolutely. O Kaim, thank
you so much. Appreciate your I appreciate all the work
(27:18):
you do. Because listen, we could not do it without
your help. And you know that you provide such a
great pipeline for us, and you know there's so much
that goes on in in football and just getting through
the day to day things, but you make it so easy.
The NFL makes it really easy for us to say
yes to women. So thank you for that. Thanks to
coach McDermott as well for the candid conversation. Next up,
(27:42):
just to make Bruce arians jealous, I sit down with
someone who knows a thing or two about creating change
in sports, the legend Billy Jean King. My as guest
for today's show is the legendary Billy Jean King. If
(28:04):
you don't know a ton about her, know this. She
has won hell of a tennis player. She's won thirty
nine Grand Slam titles and she's been number one in
the world. When she was twenty nine, she won the
Battle of the Sexes against fifty five year old Bobby Riggs.
You may have seen the movie about it, starring Emma
Stone and Steve Correll. Billy Jean is also a huge
advocate for women in sports. She founded the Women's Tennis
(28:26):
Association and the Women's Sports Foundation. She's been instrumental in
pushing for pay equality. She's mentored countless athletes, including yours truly,
Plus she loves football. Billy Jene King, you know, no
one's counting, but six hundred and seventy nine days ago, Uh,
you and I got to spend some quality time on
(28:47):
the sidelines in Atlanta at a Buck's Falcons game in
November of twenty nineteen. Can you explain why you attended
that football game? Well, actually grind the show on. It's
on epics, I think, asked me, and and uh, I
said that would be totally awesome because it was with arians.
And I just read his book, I don't know, a
year earlier on the Quarterback Whisper and realized the background. Um,
(29:13):
I heard a little bit about him, but I heard,
you know, when I read the book, it was really clear,
um how much he cared about people, didn't care what
color you are or what gender. And uh so, I
I don't know. I just really loved reading about him,
so I couldn't wait to meet him. And then of
(29:34):
course having two women coaches, having people of color in
you know, very very strong positions. I'm like, I'm there.
I always remember I asked Arians what what makes a
great coach? And he's you know, he's a man of
few words, and he said, teach. Yeah, you have to
be able to teach to be a great coach. And
he is so right. When we spoke to Coach Arians
(29:55):
on his podcast, we talked to him about that meeting
and what it meant to him, and he said, I
quote one of the greatest champions of my generation, a
bucket list item for me to meet Billy Gene King. Billy,
how do you feel about what coach Arians is doing
right now in Tampa Bay to ship the narrative and
change the game well by winning and having you know,
people of color and women coaches on the team. Um,
(30:19):
it was just amazing. I just was very happy for
them because I actually love it when teams that have
diversity inclusion UM at least trying to change um the look.
I was thrilled for them. We talked about her own
career and how it feels seeing women on the football field.
Did you draw any perilous to how you felt when
(30:41):
you were playing when you were watching them on the
sidelines that day? For sure. Every generation has their trailblazers.
Every generation has their first and it's really really hard. Um.
As you and I talked about how hard it is that,
you know, my whole life, I felt like I've been
on a tight rope because the most important thing, especially
when you're trying to lead, is don't lose your audience.
(31:04):
You've got to keep them. And it's not easy, and
people have a hard time changing. Uh. And yet we're
all human. And for instance, I know that fathers with
daughters now have changed over the over the decades, which
is a plus. Also, if I hadn't had male allies,
(31:25):
I wouldn't be talking to you and having the opportunities
I've had because men are in power, and they're the
ones that have to change because they're the ones that
can change things fast. Owners of the NFL CEO, the
Board of Directors of the NFL, which are the owners owners. Uh,
they are the ones who can change this very quickly. Uh.
(31:47):
It's not easy because change is difficult, and you've got
to really be patient, persistent, and stay passionate. You have
to stay passionate every day when you wake up. You've
gotta have fire in the billy. I don't care how
lousy the day before it was, start over start over
to that point though, Billy Jean, from your new book
All In, You know a quote that really resonated with
(32:09):
me was early on. What was most apparent to me
was that the world I wanted didn't exist. It would
be up to my generation to create it. Even if
you're not a born activist, life can damn sure make
you one. You know, life damn sure made me one,
Billy Jean. And I'm so curious, what what does this
quote mean to you? Why did you write that? I
wrote it because it was so true. I mean, when
(32:30):
you're growing up in the forties and fifties and you
already know at a very young age that you're a
second class citizen. You're never called you're very rarely called
on in school. They don't think of you have ever
being an athlete. Um, you know, you're always supposed to
be second banana, always be the support of one. It's
not fun. It's not fun. But I also knew at
twelve years old when I had my epiphany. Um, I
(32:52):
just started tennis. I loved it from the first time
I hit a ball. Um No, I played short stop
and I played touch football. But I thought about, do
you know how many times I get to touch a
ball in tennis in five minutes. Compared to all these
other sports. It is a ton if you hit, So
I knew I was lucky to do that. But I
was sitting at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and I
(33:14):
was daydreaming and thinking about my sport, and I realized
everyone wore white shoes and white clothes and played with
white balls, and everybody who played was white. And I
asked myself, where is Where is everybody else? Where is
everybody else? So I also knew tennis was global, and
(33:37):
I thought, wow, and I wanted to travel, but my
dad was a firefighter. There's no way I was going
to travel, you know, not enough money, blue collar family
that I just you know, I made a promise myself,
I'd fight free quality the rest of my life. And
then I wanted, you know, and I already knew that
my black sisters and brothers were worse off people living
(33:58):
with disabilities. I mean I had met people in wheelchairs
and people and of course now there's so many activities
for people in wheelchair I mean, wheelchair tennis is huge.
You know, we're like a lot of people play. I
just want us to have a league I mean, you
played your quarterback right, That's why that's why you like
the league at your quarterback. Your leadership is important to you,
I can tell. Uh. So, I mean, what would you do?
(34:23):
I mean I always, I mean I want the women
to available to play football. And when we had the
women's sports magazine, we put women on the front foot
women's football players because and every does, well, they won't
the magazine won't sell. I said, I don't care put
them on. It's like when Larry and I my former husband,
I did something we didn't care. We just went for it,
and we knew were gonna lose money sometimes we didn't care.
(34:44):
We felt it was more important to advance the cause.
And of course a lot of people think that's dumb business.
We didn't and we understood it was dumb business. Doesn't matter.
We did it. Um. So that's why we started World
Team Tennis back in seven four, which is about equality,
men and women on the same team. And we had
women and men coaches didn't matter. And that's the way
the world should look. And and Football's wanted to do
(35:05):
that with you know, even you being who you are
and you know, being the leader. Um, I mean, how
do you find that, how do you find it? I mean,
you probably can't talk because you're gonna get my get fired.
I don't know getting No, We're we want to talk
about challenges on this podcast. And I have to tell
you signing Billy Jean, two years ago, you gave me
the most meaningful gift that I've ever received in my career.
(35:27):
And you were leaving the field with with your people,
and then you stopped and you turned around and you
came back to me on the field and you said,
I forgot to tell you something. Sam. You said, you
have it, and you said, not many people have it.
You have it, and you walked away. And I could
have died right there on the field and been happy.
But Billy Jean, I go there every time I have
(35:47):
a difficult day and when I struggle and we have
mountains to climb, and I'm curious kind of where you
go and where you have gone on your most difficult days.
You've faced a lot in your career and you're playing career.
Kind of where do you go when things seem insurmount
the ball? Well, first of all, the reason I said
that too because I meant it. Number one is that
certain people have that what they call the in factor,
whether they're on stage or in the you know, or
(36:09):
in leadership positions in different areas. And you do have it.
I mean you had it. Just listening to your story
being quarterback and your your thoughts and your wants and
your goals. I'm like, oh wow, this is a live one.
You know, Sam's a live one on difficult days. The
most important thing, the most important thing is do not
take anything personally. Do not take anything personally because it's
(36:32):
the person that said it to you. Just they said
this thing, whether it's true or not. So let go
and taking the information because sometimes it's very helpful. But
don't take it personally. That's number one. And if you
can do that, you can keep your excitement, you can
keep going. Um. I think forgiveness is huge. Um my
(36:57):
partner in life, the long agoes, I don't get it.
You never to stay angry, you know, very rareized you
stay angry at somebody. You give everybody so much rope
and yeah, because you know what, there'll be different management
another two years. Anyway. Usually it's always changing. Like in
the tennis, things are always changing every two we always
have a new president or whatever, and so just to
(37:18):
keep starting over. It's uh, you know, corporations, teams, they're
made up of people, and people do not always stay
in the same place. Um, so it's really really important.
And then sometimes you just have to let go. Just
let go. It's not gonna happen, and it's okay, keep moving.
I don't call it failure. I call it feedback. And
that is when the ball, let's say, goes in by
(37:39):
six inches, that's you know, feedback that I hit it
right and got my contact weren't right, etcetera, and the
spin or whatever it's involved. And then if I miss
it by six inches, I take that information in as
well and say, okay, next time I get a similar shot,
I'll make the correction. And that's exactly in football, it's
all about execution building. There are three kind of main
challenges that I hear time and time again from women
(38:00):
in the lead. You you talked about challenges, We're not
afraid to talk about him. Here Can I use my
remaining time with you to get kind of quick hit
advice on these three areas. Number One, women in the
locker room. Women are constantly worried should I be in there?
Should I not? They don't even know if they should
ask if they should be in there, if they should not.
We'd love to hear what you think about women in
the locker room who just want to do their damn job. Well,
first question is do you need to be in the
(38:22):
locker room? And I'm assuming the answer is absolutely, we
have no it's called going there. I would always ask
the coach ahead of time. I would say, coach, I
need to go in the locker room. What do you
think and it's important to show him respect or well
yeah they're all men right now, Um, show him respect.
But I would talk to the coach off, you know,
when you have a moment and before the league started,
(38:43):
you know, in summer time and all that. I would
have long I would try to you know, relationships or everything.
It's really important to have a strong relationship with coach.
I think, Um, but I think you need to say
I need to get in there, and how do you
Is there a certain protocol or what? But I have
to get in state your challenge, state your your problem
(39:04):
and try to work it out with the coach. Something
that you are an expert on beyond anyone dealing with
men who might not want you there. Stifficult. I still
think you have to be patient and develop the relationship,
and if you can't you can't, then let go go
to somebody else. Maybe it can help you. You're gonna
have to identify those kinds of people. But we're all human.
(39:24):
I always go back to, you know, we just have
to keep building a relationship. And if you get a
person who's in the dark ages, I don't know, sometimes
you have to let go and not spend time with
that person. You just have to let go because you've
got people who do care. So that's a judgment. But
it's all you're always judging, don't you find that? Sam?
Every day? Do find that it's exhausting. It's exhausting, and
(39:46):
at times, yeah, it seems it seems incredibly difficult, but
then it's rewarding and the exhaustion was worth it, right.
I think that's a huge question, or why do you
want to be in the position you are? Why? Why
are you here? Why are you there? Are you where
you want to right now? I mean I think, yeah,
I am No, I'm exactly where I want to be
because I know that I can make this change if
(40:07):
I keep going with it. Billy Jean King's new book
All In Bill Jane, I felt this quote in my
bones when I read it. When you're actually doing advocacy
work from the inside, you have to be strategic to
get things done. You have to realize that sometimes success
comes incrementally. I often felt radical inside, but outside I
tried to be pragmatic and measured. Oh I read that
(40:29):
like ten times, Billy Jane King, What does that mean
to you? What talk me through that quote? Well, I
think the next sentence in it was really the important one.
I says I wanted to take strong stands without alienating
because your audience is everything. The people I was trying
to you know, change and and you know persuade, and
(40:52):
you know it's and it was a constant, you know,
high high wire act. You know. I was always on
a tight rope. So and I think it's important to
be a u Niner, a uniter. My job is always
to get people together to make this world a better place.
I am really big on that. I think, I really
(41:13):
that's what I care about. I mean when I played
Bobby Riggs is a part in the book talks about
me speaking to um Frank Gifford. He was a great
new York Giants player and in the fifties, and he
worked for ABC, and he said, are you a feminist?
And this is three Remember I'm playing Bobby Riggs. And
(41:36):
I knew if I said, yes, I'm a feminist, I
would lose at least of the audience at least And
I'm going, I can't do this. This is my one
moment when ninety million people are watching, be like a
super Bowl. Maybe back in the now we get over
hunter million, but in seventy three, there weren't as many
people on earth. Um, and so I have a nanosecond
(41:59):
right answer. I gotta answer the guys. Now it's international TV,
And I went, I am really for the women's movement.
I think it will make life better for all of us,
not just women or something like that. Now, I could
have said, of course, I'm a feminist, because to me,
feminist means equal all of us, you know, equality. But
(42:22):
in those days, at that time, you've got to know
what's going on and feel your the peeps and the
people felt if you're a feminist, you hated men and
that was the last thing it means. So you've got
to know where you're at at that time, and what's
gonna fly? What isn't gonna fly? We could have no more.
We didn't have social media, we didn't have phones, We
(42:43):
couldn't we could have never mobilized as quickly as they
do today. I wish we could have because it's you know,
you can get things don faster. Last question for you,
Billy Jean. You know, Um, if we're being honest here,
they're there are NFL coaches who are champions of this effort,
and there are some who don't want to participate and
who aren't male allies. You know, how do we get
more male champions? How do we gain male buy in
(43:03):
faster than what we're accomplishing right now? It's really hard.
I always try to like if we go to see
CEOs or people empower like what you're talking to coaches. Um,
I'll tell you what. It's really hard if they don't
have any daughters or granddaughters or no nieces, that they
only have sons grandsons. They grew up in a family
where it was all boys, like they have three brothers.
(43:25):
I find that's the one that's impossible, that they just
never had very many women in their lives. To see
both sides, to see different sides of everyone, and and
the way we're socialized is so different. We are socialized.
I think both of us are so badly socialized. Boys
are taught to be brave, girls are taught to be perfect.
(43:46):
Perfect means always taken second banana, always taking care of
the other person first. Um, So I try to get
to know the human being. The first question I asked,
usually a CEO or a coach, I would say, tell
me about your family. Do you have new siblings, do
you have children, are you marrying, or do you have
a significant other. I just get to know them as
a human being first, forget the job, because they're human first.
(44:10):
So and then I tried to see if there's a
place I can go. We found in women's tennis that
every CEO that stepped up for us had a daughter,
and the ones that did not have a daughter and
only had sons or had brothers only in their family,
they usually said no. So it's the human connection. You
(44:32):
have to find what is it about this person as
coach that will get him to open his heart and
mind to what we're trying to at least say, to
get started, you gotta get started first with some people
and CEOs you tell us, because we're always going to
companies trying to get him to because CEOs can change
things really fast, just like a coach. The coaches like
(44:53):
the CEO of a team. He he can change things
overnight if he wants. He's got the power. Then I
would talk to the coaches about their legacy. When you
get old, like I'm you know, when you look in
the mirror, you see all these wrinkles in you, and
what do you want to say about yourself? Now most
people talk about, oh, you're at your funeral, and what
do you want everyone to say? No, I think that's
(45:14):
maybe important to somebody. I think more importantly when the
coach looks at himself in this case that what does
he want to leave? What kind of legacy do you
want to leave? I mean, like arians leaving his legacy
of inclusion. It's a heck of a lot more exciting,
peaceful way to leave, knowing you left something positive that's
(45:38):
going to continue to grow and being conclusive. And I
think legacy is huge. I mean, I know, fighting for
equality my whole life since I was twelve very important
to me looking in the mirror and say if I
fought a good fight every single day, because I also
know there's never it's never going to be equal for ever, ever, ever,
But I know that each generation can make it better.
(45:59):
And my job is to help the younger people now.
My job is to help them like you to carry on. Uh.
And I stand on shoulders of people before me, Billy
Jean King. When I told my three year old son
that I was interviewing you today, I said, I'm interviewing
Billy Jan King And he said, does she live in
a castle? And I said, oh, does she? Ever? In
(46:21):
all of our minds will Billy Jeans? I just want
you know, to take this time to thank you for
the sacrifices that you made, everything you did so people
like me can continue your legacy and fight on in
this space. It's an absolute honor to speak with you.
If you love that interview as much as I did,
be sure to check out Billy Jean's new book, All
(46:43):
In An Autobiography. And just when I thought the conversation
around women in football couldn't get any better, I sat
down with Sarah Thomas, the first female official in the NFL.
You won't want to miss this, and you've gotta be
kidding me. I mean, I like sports, my whole life
from five and and because I'm a girl, I can't flay.
It's not like I'm doing this to bust up a
(47:03):
good old voice book. M
On February seven, two thousand twenty one, Darcy Glazer Castuits
watched her Tampa Bay Buccaneers make history. The Tampa Bay
Buccaneers have a second Super Bowl title in franchise history,
and Tom Brady doesn't pass the torch quite yet to Mahomes,
does it even though you're looking at the greatest right there.
(00:22):
The whole experience was totally surreal to be the Super
Bowl and to be on your own church. But I
looked over and I saw Sarah Thomas walking by and
really just struck me. Really, it was amazing. Darcy owns
the Buccaneers, and not only did her team win the
championship at their home stadium, three women made history too.
Sarah Thomas was the first woman to officiate a Super
(00:44):
Bowl and the Bucks had two women coaching. On this
episode of Earning Itt, we meet the powerful voices in
the NFL behind the push to get more talented women
on the field and in the front office. Plus Billy
Jean King. When I told my three year old son
that I was interviewing you today, I said, I'm interviewing
Billy Jan King and said does she live in a castle?
And I said, oh, does she ever in all of
(01:05):
our minds and say, I sit down with the legendary
Billy Jean King, who knows a few things about opening
doors for women, and yes she's a football fan. I
want to start the show off by setting the scene
for you guys. It's Super Bowl fifty five. The Tampa
Bay Buccaneers are playing the Kansas City Chiefs. The nation
(01:28):
is fixated on a quarterback matchup of epic proportions. This
is a matchup that we're gonna be talking about. I
think for a long time we're gonna touch out in
this game. I think both these quarterbacks aren't gonna lose
the game. Really, they're gonna both get their team back
in it. We're coming down to the wire today, Jim
and Buck's co owner Darcy Glazer Cassowitz is soaking it
all in. After the game, Darcy, I texted you at
(01:49):
around ten sev PM congratulating you on this incredible super Bowl,
historic super Bowl, and you texted me back one word
her story for our fans. H E R S t
O R Y her story. Why did you text me that?
I mean, we're I think at that point we were
in the locker room and everybody was you know, just
(02:11):
going crazy and again I'm seeing the coaches there, um,
you know, seeing Lorie the first time after the game,
and it was just it was just incredible. It was
an incredible Everything about that game was incredible. I mean
we won, you know, we won with the most diverse
coaching staff in the entire NFL. We had, um, you know,
(02:31):
two female coaches on the team. It was just it
was spectacular. Darcy and her brothers owned the Bucks as
a family, and while it's no secret that football hasn't
always been the most welcoming space for women, she's been
working to change that. It's not that hiring women as
a priority, it's that we want to make sure that
(02:52):
our pool of candidates is as diverse as possible so
we could pick the best person. We're looking for the
best people here at the Buccaneers. That that that's just
where we start. And because we are searching and really
creating these pools of candidates, we are finding that women
are filling these roles. Yeah, for us, it's just as
(03:14):
Darcy said, let's find the best people, but you have
to open up the pool to find the best. That's
Buccaneers head coach Bruce arians I think for me, coming
as an outsider, it was normal. You know. I look
at all the vice presidents and the people in charge
who were female, and it's just normal here coach. Women
have been disenfranchised from the football side for a long time.
(03:35):
We're all working to change that. Right when you knew
you were committed to this and that you wanted this done,
how did you find females who coached football? I was
asked the question one time in Arizona about did I
think women could coach in the NFL? And I had
seen Dot Murphy coach and Tis Junior College back in
the eighties and nineties, so and she was one of
the best receiver coaches I ever cliniced with. So I said, hey, yeah,
(03:56):
I know they can. It's just creating an opportunities and
getting opportunities. And uh one of the arena team coaches
called me said, look, are you very serious about this?
I think I have somebody can really do a great
job for you. And it was Jen Welter, and UH
met her super qualified, just a ball of energy and
and came in and did a heck of a job
for our training camp. And then I knew that I
(04:17):
knew it was possible. Interestingly, the majority of our coaches
who are female started out as tackle football players. This
is one of the biggest misconceptions that I run into,
this idea that women can't coach football because they don't
play at a high level. But right now in North
America there are thousands of female professional tackle football players.
One of the most respective people in this business for
(04:37):
me is Joe Pendry and and Joe is works at
Alabama now, but he was the Birmingham Iron general manager.
And I'm speaking at a clinic at you a bad
and he said, are you really looking for, you know,
a female coach? I said, yeah, I really want when
I really like to have one a d line. He said,
I've got the perfect person for you, and uh, and
(04:58):
it was Low. He's talking about coach Low Locust, who
ended up getting that job on his staff. She and
strength coach Morale Javadifar became the first female coaches to
win a Super Bowl. Low is clear that her priority
is not being the first, it's being the best. I've
never operated under the premise of you know, I'm gonna
go and I'm gonna do something nobody else did. That
(05:20):
was never my motivation. I just wanted to get better.
I wanted the d lines that I was in charge
of to be absolutely obnoxious and feared and hated across
any league that I coached, and I needed to know
how to do that better than anyone else that I
was coming up against. Darcy says, what we're seeing is
just the beginning. We spent a lot of time thinking about, UM,
what we can do for women in this space. There's
(05:43):
so many female fans who want to follow their passion
for football into a career in the NFL. So we
do a lot of things. You know. We started UM
the Women's Summit for Careers in Football, which was really
taking what you're doing a combine what you spearheaded, uh,
Sam Um, and we took that on the road because
we thought that you did was such an unbelievable idea.
(06:04):
And so now we have forty three women that we
we talked to and have leadership in the Buccaneers UM
kind of helping them along the way. And Uh, we
have the Buccaneers Girls Preseason Classic, and that's the largest
girls high school flag football tournament in the nation with
over a thousand student athletes and fifty teams. And we
(06:26):
think it's really important to support and validate these these
female athletes, to show them that we believe in them
and the sport is for them. We talked about the
perception that women aren't respected in the locker room and
this idea that they're only token hires. Okay, so we've
heard stereotypes of female coaches. You know, that they've they've
never played, or they don't they don't know the sport
(06:46):
as well as men, or how could they possibly coach men?
You know, we spoke to some other head coaches who
mentioned that they were a little nervous to hire females
for the first time. They didn't know what to expect.
Your reaction, coach, what was your first reaction? Put them
on the board, do every kind of interview you would
do for anybody else you would hire, and uh, if
they've got the answers to the test, hire them and
(07:07):
don't don't don't worry about male or female. Is this
the best person for this job that I'm to have
opened right now? And uh, you're gonna get the best
person every single time if you just have open ears
and open eyes, right and so on that point for
both of you, what's holding women back? In football, do
you think. I think there's not that many job openings,
(07:30):
and uh, it's a very very competitive business. So uh,
you've got to be you. You've got to have a
heck of a resume, and you better do a great
job in your interview, just like anybody. I think at
the thirty two head coaching interviews, Um, there's only thirty
two and uh so I think when you open that
pool up, hopefully in college and in high school, that
(07:50):
starts spreading, so that pipeline gets bigger. Um. But it's
more opportunity because they're very, very few jobs. Darcie, what
about you women on the football side, the business side,
I think time is is the barrier at this point.
I think it's a very exciting time right now. I
think that a lot of more women are being hired
(08:11):
as coaches or scouts, um, and different aspects of football.
So there is progress being made and as time goes on,
there will be more women in the NFL. So you know,
women are not competing against other women for these jobs.
Like like Bruce says, to work in the NFL is
a phenomenal opportunity. You're competing against the world, So you
(08:33):
you have to be at the top. Here's a stat
that some people find surprising. Of NFL fans are women,
and Darcy gets this. A few years ago. I was
in a women's event and we were talking about how
at the time half our vice presidents were women at
the Buccaneers, and there was really this collective gasp in
the room that people were shocked to hear that so
(08:55):
many women were working at our team and really floored me.
It occurred to me at that moment that women don't
realize maybe that there's all of these opportunities in the NFL.
And it was at that moment that it became very
important for me to create tremendous awareness of the opportunities
that there are for women. Darcy's in the meeting room
(09:16):
telling us, Nope, not good enough. We can do better
than that. And you know, absolutely love your drive for
getting this right. Coach. I want to bring you to
life a little bit, because, first of all, you're hilarious.
Everyone who we spoke to you mentioned we were talking
he said that you're absolutely hilarious. Um, you know, kids
in Tampa Bay now dress up as you. There is
a school that we've been following that dress up as
(09:37):
coach low and coach m Day and you know they
dress up like you on Sundays. Can you talk about
the impact that what you're doing is having on young
kids in Florida. Yeah, I just hope they don't have
a cocktail in your hand. Um, it's it's amazing. Uh
you know when I was in Arizona was Florida. Steve Kaimer,
(09:58):
general manager, he said, you can't you gotta you can't wait.
I can't wait to show you my son. He's been
working on his outfit all week for Halloween and it
came by. He had the headset on, he had a
little gotee on, he had the game plan and he
started the first thing. He says, oh, ship time about
(10:20):
his mom just cracked up. Left. So he's going to
be you all night. So and uh so so but
he Yeah, it's amazing. It's it's very flattering to see
to see that. It's amazing young girls wearing their headsets
on Halloween dressed up. His coach arean because of what
you're doing. It's fantastic. Coach. You had the opportunity to
meet Billy Jean King recently, who lauded the efforts of
the organization you mentioned she was one of your idols.
(10:42):
Oh god, one of the greatest champions of my generation.
I mean Billy Jane King was she was it? I mean, uh,
I wasn't not a tennis player, but I was a great,
great fan of hers, and uh just the way she
played and uh, you know, getting to meet her was,
you know, one of my bucket list things. And uh,
(11:03):
to to see her and that no risk it no
biscuit T shirt was absolutely amazing. I was at that
game and can confirm that he was very much fanboying
over Billy Jean coach arians. As someone who understands the
power of equality in sports, I grew up in an
environment where we were all athletes. You've got in the
locker room, there wasn't there's no black, white, brown who
was just this is our team. And I think part
(11:26):
of the thing for me of of giving opportunities was
not getting one. You know, I thought I should have
been a head coach a long time ago, but I
had to wait till sixty and Chapergano to get sick,
uh for me to get a chance to be a
head coach. So when I think people need an opportunity,
I'm more than willing to open that door for them.
I asked him what he thought the league would look
(11:48):
like in ten years. For me, I think just continued growth,
continued growth in those areas were talking about, you know,
minority head coaches, more women on the field, more women
in scouting, um everywhere in the organizations. Maybe as general managers.
I think there's some people right now are very very
qualified to be general managers. So every every asset of
(12:09):
of the football side of the building, I just want
to see it continue to grow. There are hundreds and
thousands of women in this country who want to work
for the NFL and who are qualified to work in
the NFL. You all have a program directed at these women.
Do you both have advice on how women in this
country can get involved in football if they want to
get started, Yes, stay ahead of the curve. If you
(12:30):
want to get in coaching, you better what jobs gonna
be open next year, not what helps now. And and
get ahead of the curve. Who who might get that
this is what I've done my whole career. Who might
get that job? And make sure he knows who I
am and and knows my resume? And uh, this is tough,
tough business. And coaching and uh, there's so many candidates
(12:51):
and it's all about who you know and make sure
you know everybody. Did someone say Billy Jean King Surprise
coach arians, She joins us end talks about you in
a few plus join me in the owners suite in Buffalo,
where I asked the Bill's head coach if he was
nervous to tell his players he was bringing a female
coach on board. His honest answer. Next, I want to
(13:21):
take you guys back to a moment in time that's
stuck with me. It was after the Bill's Week one
victory over the Jets. Take a listen to Buffalo Bill's
head coach Sean McDermott. What a blessing. Huh, what a blessing? Man?
A group, a group of men and women in that
locker room. I just want to get that out, man.
Just I'll tell you what. I'm so proud of that group.
This might not seem like a huge deal to a
(13:42):
lot of people, but to the women who are working
in football, it meant a lot. He said to the
men and women in that locker room. It's actually the
first thing I talked about when I sat down with
coach McDermott for the show. It sent a message to
your staff and to all of us that we belong here.
And so I'm sitting here in Orchard Park at the
Buffalo Bills facility, in the office of Kim Pagoula, owner
(14:05):
and president of the Buffalo Bills, first woman, first woman
of color to hold the position of president in the
NFL and in hockey as well, and coach Sean McDermott,
who is a leader in the placement and promotion of
female coaches in the NFL, and the man who every
female coach in the country wants to work for. I
don't know if you know that, Kim, coach, thanks for
chatting with me today. You all are leading the league
(14:26):
and hiring women from the NFL women's careers in football
forum with sixteen total opportunities that you have afforded to
women in that amount of time. Kim, what's going on here? Well?
I think one of the big obvious elephant in the
room is I'm a female. I don't I'm a woman,
and I think that it is important you know that
(14:47):
we represent, you know, what we are as owners, and
I think that that is very very important to myself,
important to my husband, Um, and we just not something
we want to talk about, but something we want to show.
And I think that being able to have an influence,
being able to to mentor and help other women, I
think it's important to us. But one because I am
(15:07):
a female and because UM, I feel like this is
I feel like I belong here, and I want other
women to feel the same way. Kim was one of
the first people to embrace the idea of a pipeline
for female coaches and administrators in the league, along with
coach McDermott. I want to get personal with this next
question because I think it was the first time you
spoke at the Women's Forum. We put a photo up
on the big screen of your daughter, and I can
(15:29):
tell this story, but I'd prefer to hear it from you.
Talk to me about your daughter, Maddie. What what's seeing
that photo meant and what her impact the influence she
had on you as a coach. Yeah, way to pull
out the heartstrings here, Sam, right away. Right. I was
expecting a nice softball lob pitch coming in here. I
grew up in a family of all boys, and so
(15:50):
having my first child be a girl, it was an
adjustment for me, like, how are we going to do this?
And Maddie dressed up for how Halloween? Her parade at
Halloween or excuse me, her parade at school for Halloween.
As a coach, so I'm working through what we normally
work through in October and my wife sends me a
(16:11):
picture of Maddie no words attached, and I was just like,
oh my gosh, right, it just got me and and
so um, seeing her do that basically to me says
why not? Like why not? And and so from that
(16:33):
moment on, it's really come full circle for me and
be like, hey, if if if I can do it,
why can't my daughter do it? If Kim can do it,
why can't many other females do it? Right? And so um,
that was an eye opening experience for me and one
that I'll never forget and one that has motivated me
(16:54):
to help in any way that I can. It was fantastic.
And that was the season where you hired Phoebe Scheckterre.
That was the the first full time coach you brought
in here. Uh you know, And and I'm Maddie saw
Phoebe on the sidelines, right, so she finally saw someone
that looked like her that could represent the field that
she's interested in. And I spoke to Mattie yesterday and
she still wants to be a head coach, which was incredible. Um,
but talk to me, coach about the evolution. You know,
(17:16):
you've had three female coaches here in six different opportunities
over your span of head coach here. Talk about your
evolution of head coach and watching the progression of these
women in the sport. Yeah, you know, Sam, it's been
interesting because I gotta I gotta admit early on I
was very um, I don't know, anxious or just kind
of apprehensive how this was going to work. Um. I
(17:37):
think the NFL number one has done a great job
of accommodating UM through facilities, whether it be in the training,
training facility, stadiums home, in a way that it's not
a it's not a it's not a hurdle anymore that
we have to talk about or get over. Um. They
have all those resources available and facilities available, So now
(17:57):
it's it's just become. And I was thinking about this yesterday.
It's no longer unique to see women at a minimum
on the coaching staff, and it's no longer unique, not
only from from our points of view, but also from
the players points of view, which I think is really cool.
I gotta give a shout out to coach here because
one of the my favorite stories is when we did
(18:19):
have Pebe that first year and then she came back
the second year. So I was like, oh, why why
is she here again? And coach said, because you know,
last year was on offense. This year, I want her
to get experience on defense. So the fact that is
just not a check the box and like, Okay, we'll
get a female and then how she goes, what good
luck to her and all that, but the fact that
he really wanted to develop her as a coach and
(18:42):
give her as money, as much opportunity to develop the
whole game. Um, I think it speaks violues for you.
That's such a good point, Kim, because you know the
coach that came the female coach that came here after
Phoebe was Kali Brownson. And you know, we and she
talked a lot about how you developed her for her
to be in the position she's in now at Cleveland Browns,
in a prestigious coaching position. So it's not only about
(19:03):
coming in here and experiencing and having a clipboard and
doing intern responsibilities. It's about developing them. So you're kind
of developing a female coaching tree in the NFL right now,
where they're all going to introviute themselves to you at
some point, So you know, it is it is remarkable.
It is remarkable. So I'm talked to as a little
about your experience with Kelly Brownson and and how how
she performed at the at the Bills when she was here. Yeah,
(19:23):
So second it was our second time, second go around
with a female on the coaching staff, as you mentioned, Sam,
and what a phenomenal job. And and and I think
it's easier for the second person than it was for
the first person. And that's how it should be, right,
So easier for us, easier for Cally in this case
because Phoebe went before her, and she used Phoebe and
(19:45):
you right give yourself from credit, sells some credit here.
What a great launching pad, right for all those that
are now coming after Phoebe at the Bills and across
the league. Um, And I've gotten the kind of sneaky
suspicion that everyone's kind of reaching out to each other
and using you and again Phoebe and Callie is hey,
(20:07):
how did it work, how did it go? What about this?
What about that? And I think you guys are great
ambassadors for again all those that follow I mentioned it
in our first two episodes, but it's really difficult to
get a football job in the NFL, especially for women.
When men try to get these jobs in the NFL,
there's infrastructure in place to help them, connections, scholarships, training programs.
Until we started to create a pipeline, those opportunities didn't
(20:30):
exist for women. One thing that that surprised me early
on as his ownership is how close connected everybody is.
So you know, you talked to one one coach and
he was, you know, a grad student, when this coach
you know at the league or at another club, was
the head coach, or they work with others. So it's
very close knit, right. It's just this very small circle
(20:50):
of of men and coaching in the same situation, the
same football world. Women don't have that, right, But I
think what we're starting to see with the amount of
women now at club thanks to not just us but
other clubs around the league that are getting those women,
I think now we can start getting that that tree
that you know, whether it's from from a male coach
(21:10):
or from another female creating that network of so that
hopefully someday Kelly is going to be making those hiring decisions.
And we can't downplay, we can't downplay the importance of
female ownership in this league. Right there not that many
female owners. The number is growing certainly. But you know,
when when you and Terry bought the team back in,
that was something a tone that you set from the top, right,
(21:32):
And so I know Coach is very passionate about it,
Brandon being Bills GM is very passionate about it. But
how do you set the tone from the top, Kim,
how do you let people know that this is your
expectation and that this is who the Buffalo Bills are? Well,
I think that it was through action, right, a lot
of not just talk, but through actions. As I just mentioned, Coach,
you can attest I've been in a lot of our
(21:52):
our decision making meetings when it's just been you and Brandon,
Terry and I and so I think from right from
day one, from the intervie you process to the draft
to you know, difficult decisions on players. Am I sitting
there telling these guys what to do, no, thankfully not,
but having the presence being in those areas, in those meetings. UM.
(22:12):
I think by action just set the tone and that
at that I give credit to my husband for making
sure that I'm in those meetings and having those discussions
and hearing what coach and and our personnel have to say. UM.
And I think that really kind of people know that
I'm there, I'm in that meeting, and I think that
sets to tell more than just talking about it. So
(22:34):
other head coaches, not only in football but in sports
in general, are scared of the unknown of what if
I bring in a female coach, what could happen? Right,
What's going to happen in the locker room, what's gonna
happen with her interactions with players? And I think every
head coach thinks about that first. But you went and
did it anyway, and you've experienced it now, So not
just talking to other head coaches, but I really want
(22:55):
to try to dispel the myth around. It's no big deal.
It's just like any other coach, right, and they they
act professionally and they do their job, and so I
would love to kind of hear you speak to that right.
I were you nervous about everything? And was there anything
that you and we're nervous about that didn't happen? No?
I mean really, Um, it went a lot smoother than
I thought. Um, I was nervous about some things, apprehensive,
(23:18):
as I mentioned earlier. But I think it really goes
back to what Kim mentioned about, like why not why
not include the entire talent pool into making us as
good as we can be here at the Buffalo Bills.
I mean, if you, and we've said this before, if
you basically cut it in half, you're only getting you know,
(23:39):
half the people to pull from who could be the
best of the best. This is the NFL professional sports,
we're talking the best of the best. And Kim could
tell you, I mean, building a staff is so hard
to get good people that work hard and are smart, um,
and so like I made it a point when we
(24:00):
got here not to excuse me, like just hire my friends,
which happens right, or just hire people that I knew. Um.
And thankfully for Kim and Terry, they've allowed me to
um shuffle the staff to get it to where we
are now, and that includes you know, we're going to
do it right it includes women, includes minorities, and includes
(24:24):
I mean everyone, right, And so, as Kim has heard
me say numerous times, I just want the best. I
was lucky enough to watch a game with you recently, Kim,
and I feel that with your energy when you're watching
that game, as there is excitement, there's anxiety, but there's
such passion. And that's really the part of football that
that's what brings this country together. That's why we all
do it, right, is that excitement. And I cannot agree more.
(24:46):
I heard an interesting story about you on game day
one time where um, after the games, not to disrupt
the coaching staff, but you went into the coaching boom
and you were asking about how plays were called, how
they were drawn up, how they were I didn't ask
that during the game. After the game, after the game down,
you waited and you went to talk to the coaches,
and you know, I heard from from the coaches saying, like,
(25:08):
how cool is that? Like that probably doesn't happen anywhere
else right where you're the owner of the team and
you're in there saying like teaching about entry level coaching.
I got that idea from our head of I T.
Dan Evans, because he said, hey, if you really want
to know what's happening, put the headsets on. So I
didn't make a big deal of it because you know,
it's game day. But I was, you know, very conscious
of doing it in a game that I would say
(25:28):
every game matters, but you know, it was not a
contentious type of placement, you know, where it was a
must win for us. So I did do it near
at the end of the season, and I didn't make
a big deal of it because I just kind of
snuck into the room and put on the headphones. Oh
my gosh, Like, how freaking confusing. There's like a completely
(25:51):
different language, the speed of how everything guests decided and
the talking and I'm still trying to figure out, okay,
whose voice was out again? And next thing I know,
the plays all over and now the defense is talking.
I don't want to coach, and but I think a
healthy respect for what they do and the only way
you could really lived through that is getting those experiences.
(26:11):
I mean to me, that's leadership, right is you can
sit in this office all day and not speak to
your staff, but going to the stadium after the game
is completed and being in their shoes, so you can
see what they go through and how how they get
criticized so highly for decisions that they have to make
in milliseconds, very very quickly. It's it's remarkable. I don't
know how to do it any other way, right, I
don't know how to be anything else, But then who
(26:33):
I am. I was fortunate to have successes as well
as obviously Terry Um later on in our life. So
I people see me, like I said, the way I
am is this how we've always been through our host
If you go home, you'll see the dogs there. If
you come to the office, you'll see the dogs there.
A couple of your coaches told me that they saw
you I get Wegmans and sweatpants, and well, have you
(26:58):
been to Wegman's. I've heard you have told me time
and time again that Wan is the champ. I have
not been there yet, but I definitely plan to make
a trip after Oh yeah, no, no, I mean I'd
go there and anything, because because it's a great experience
to go to Wigman. So that's not a chart at all.
I have to try it out absolutely. O Kaim, thank
you so much. Appreciate your I appreciate all the work
(27:18):
you do. Because listen, we could not do it without
your help. And you know that you provide such a
great pipeline for us, and you know there's so much
that goes on in in football and just getting through
the day to day things, but you make it so easy.
The NFL makes it really easy for us to say
yes to women. So thank you for that. Thanks to
coach McDermott as well for the candid conversation. Next up,
(27:42):
just to make Bruce arians jealous, I sit down with
someone who knows a thing or two about creating change
in sports, the legend Billy Jean King. My as guest
for today's show is the legendary Billy Jean King. If
(28:04):
you don't know a ton about her, know this. She
has won hell of a tennis player. She's won thirty
nine Grand Slam titles and she's been number one in
the world. When she was twenty nine, she won the
Battle of the Sexes against fifty five year old Bobby Riggs.
You may have seen the movie about it, starring Emma
Stone and Steve Correll. Billy Jean is also a huge
advocate for women in sports. She founded the Women's Tennis
(28:26):
Association and the Women's Sports Foundation. She's been instrumental in
pushing for pay equality. She's mentored countless athletes, including yours truly,
Plus she loves football. Billy Jene King, you know, no
one's counting, but six hundred and seventy nine days ago, Uh,
you and I got to spend some quality time on
(28:47):
the sidelines in Atlanta at a Buck's Falcons game in
November of twenty nineteen. Can you explain why you attended
that football game? Well, actually grind the show on. It's
on epics, I think, asked me, and and uh, I
said that would be totally awesome because it was with arians.
And I just read his book, I don't know, a
year earlier on the Quarterback Whisper and realized the background. Um,
(29:13):
I heard a little bit about him, but I heard,
you know, when I read the book, it was really clear,
um how much he cared about people, didn't care what
color you are or what gender. And uh so, I
I don't know. I just really loved reading about him,
so I couldn't wait to meet him. And then of
(29:34):
course having two women coaches, having people of color in
you know, very very strong positions. I'm like, I'm there.
I always remember I asked Arians what what makes a
great coach? And he's you know, he's a man of
few words, and he said, teach. Yeah, you have to
be able to teach to be a great coach. And
he is so right. When we spoke to Coach Arians
(29:55):
on his podcast, we talked to him about that meeting
and what it meant to him, and he said, I
quote one of the greatest champions of my generation, a
bucket list item for me to meet Billy Gene King. Billy,
how do you feel about what coach Arians is doing
right now in Tampa Bay to ship the narrative and
change the game well by winning and having you know,
people of color and women coaches on the team. Um,
(30:19):
it was just amazing. I just was very happy for
them because I actually love it when teams that have
diversity inclusion UM at least trying to change um the look.
I was thrilled for them. We talked about her own
career and how it feels seeing women on the football field.
Did you draw any perilous to how you felt when
(30:41):
you were playing when you were watching them on the
sidelines that day? For sure. Every generation has their trailblazers.
Every generation has their first and it's really really hard. Um.
As you and I talked about how hard it is that,
you know, my whole life, I felt like I've been
on a tight rope because the most important thing, especially
when you're trying to lead, is don't lose your audience.
(31:04):
You've got to keep them. And it's not easy, and
people have a hard time changing. Uh. And yet we're
all human. And for instance, I know that fathers with
daughters now have changed over the over the decades, which
is a plus. Also, if I hadn't had male allies,
(31:25):
I wouldn't be talking to you and having the opportunities
I've had because men are in power, and they're the
ones that have to change because they're the ones that
can change things fast. Owners of the NFL CEO, the
Board of Directors of the NFL, which are the owners owners. Uh,
they are the ones who can change this very quickly. Uh.
(31:47):
It's not easy because change is difficult, and you've got
to really be patient, persistent, and stay passionate. You have
to stay passionate every day when you wake up. You've
gotta have fire in the billy. I don't care how
lousy the day before it was, start over start over
to that point though, Billy Jean, from your new book
All In, You know a quote that really resonated with
(32:09):
me was early on. What was most apparent to me
was that the world I wanted didn't exist. It would
be up to my generation to create it. Even if
you're not a born activist, life can damn sure make
you one. You know, life damn sure made me one,
Billy Jean. And I'm so curious, what what does this
quote mean to you? Why did you write that? I
wrote it because it was so true. I mean, when
(32:30):
you're growing up in the forties and fifties and you
already know at a very young age that you're a
second class citizen. You're never called you're very rarely called
on in school. They don't think of you have ever
being an athlete. Um, you know, you're always supposed to
be second banana, always be the support of one. It's
not fun. It's not fun. But I also knew at
twelve years old when I had my epiphany. Um, I
(32:52):
just started tennis. I loved it from the first time
I hit a ball. Um No, I played short stop
and I played touch football. But I thought about, do
you know how many times I get to touch a
ball in tennis in five minutes. Compared to all these
other sports. It is a ton if you hit, So
I knew I was lucky to do that. But I
was sitting at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and I
(33:14):
was daydreaming and thinking about my sport, and I realized
everyone wore white shoes and white clothes and played with
white balls, and everybody who played was white. And I
asked myself, where is Where is everybody else? Where is
everybody else? So I also knew tennis was global, and
(33:37):
I thought, wow, and I wanted to travel, but my
dad was a firefighter. There's no way I was going
to travel, you know, not enough money, blue collar family
that I just you know, I made a promise myself,
I'd fight free quality the rest of my life. And
then I wanted, you know, and I already knew that
my black sisters and brothers were worse off people living
(33:58):
with disabilities. I mean I had met people in wheelchairs
and people and of course now there's so many activities
for people in wheelchair I mean, wheelchair tennis is huge.
You know, we're like a lot of people play. I
just want us to have a league I mean, you
played your quarterback right, That's why that's why you like
the league at your quarterback. Your leadership is important to you,
I can tell. Uh. So, I mean, what would you do?
(34:23):
I mean I always, I mean I want the women
to available to play football. And when we had the
women's sports magazine, we put women on the front foot
women's football players because and every does, well, they won't
the magazine won't sell. I said, I don't care put
them on. It's like when Larry and I my former husband,
I did something we didn't care. We just went for it,
and we knew were gonna lose money sometimes we didn't care.
(34:44):
We felt it was more important to advance the cause.
And of course a lot of people think that's dumb business.
We didn't and we understood it was dumb business. Doesn't matter.
We did it. Um. So that's why we started World
Team Tennis back in seven four, which is about equality,
men and women on the same team. And we had
women and men coaches didn't matter. And that's the way
the world should look. And and Football's wanted to do
(35:05):
that with you know, even you being who you are
and you know, being the leader. Um, I mean, how
do you find that, how do you find it? I mean,
you probably can't talk because you're gonna get my get fired.
I don't know getting No, We're we want to talk
about challenges on this podcast. And I have to tell
you signing Billy Jean, two years ago, you gave me
the most meaningful gift that I've ever received in my career.
(35:27):
And you were leaving the field with with your people,
and then you stopped and you turned around and you
came back to me on the field and you said,
I forgot to tell you something. Sam. You said, you
have it, and you said, not many people have it.
You have it, and you walked away. And I could
have died right there on the field and been happy.
But Billy Jean, I go there every time I have
(35:47):
a difficult day and when I struggle and we have
mountains to climb, and I'm curious kind of where you
go and where you have gone on your most difficult days.
You've faced a lot in your career and you're playing career.
Kind of where do you go when things seem insurmount
the ball? Well, first of all, the reason I said
that too because I meant it. Number one is that
certain people have that what they call the in factor,
whether they're on stage or in the you know, or
(36:09):
in leadership positions in different areas. And you do have it.
I mean you had it. Just listening to your story
being quarterback and your your thoughts and your wants and
your goals. I'm like, oh wow, this is a live one.
You know, Sam's a live one on difficult days. The
most important thing, the most important thing is do not
take anything personally. Do not take anything personally because it's
(36:32):
the person that said it to you. Just they said
this thing, whether it's true or not. So let go
and taking the information because sometimes it's very helpful. But
don't take it personally. That's number one. And if you
can do that, you can keep your excitement, you can
keep going. Um. I think forgiveness is huge. Um my
(36:57):
partner in life, the long agoes, I don't get it.
You never to stay angry, you know, very rareized you
stay angry at somebody. You give everybody so much rope
and yeah, because you know what, there'll be different management
another two years. Anyway. Usually it's always changing. Like in
the tennis, things are always changing every two we always
have a new president or whatever, and so just to
(37:18):
keep starting over. It's uh, you know, corporations, teams, they're
made up of people, and people do not always stay
in the same place. Um, so it's really really important.
And then sometimes you just have to let go. Just
let go. It's not gonna happen, and it's okay, keep moving.
I don't call it failure. I call it feedback. And
that is when the ball, let's say, goes in by
(37:39):
six inches, that's you know, feedback that I hit it
right and got my contact weren't right, etcetera, and the
spin or whatever it's involved. And then if I miss
it by six inches, I take that information in as
well and say, okay, next time I get a similar shot,
I'll make the correction. And that's exactly in football, it's
all about execution building. There are three kind of main
challenges that I hear time and time again from women
(38:00):
in the lead. You you talked about challenges, We're not
afraid to talk about him. Here Can I use my
remaining time with you to get kind of quick hit
advice on these three areas. Number One, women in the
locker room. Women are constantly worried should I be in there?
Should I not? They don't even know if they should
ask if they should be in there, if they should not.
We'd love to hear what you think about women in
the locker room who just want to do their damn job. Well,
first question is do you need to be in the
(38:22):
locker room? And I'm assuming the answer is absolutely, we
have no it's called going there. I would always ask
the coach ahead of time. I would say, coach, I
need to go in the locker room. What do you
think and it's important to show him respect or well
yeah they're all men right now, Um, show him respect.
But I would talk to the coach off, you know,
when you have a moment and before the league started,
(38:43):
you know, in summer time and all that. I would
have long I would try to you know, relationships or everything.
It's really important to have a strong relationship with coach.
I think, Um, but I think you need to say
I need to get in there, and how do you
Is there a certain protocol or what? But I have
to get in state your challenge, state your your problem
(39:04):
and try to work it out with the coach. Something
that you are an expert on beyond anyone dealing with
men who might not want you there. Stifficult. I still
think you have to be patient and develop the relationship,
and if you can't you can't, then let go go
to somebody else. Maybe it can help you. You're gonna
have to identify those kinds of people. But we're all human.
(39:24):
I always go back to, you know, we just have
to keep building a relationship. And if you get a
person who's in the dark ages, I don't know, sometimes
you have to let go and not spend time with
that person. You just have to let go because you've
got people who do care. So that's a judgment. But
it's all you're always judging, don't you find that? Sam?
Every day? Do find that it's exhausting. It's exhausting, and
(39:46):
at times, yeah, it seems it seems incredibly difficult, but
then it's rewarding and the exhaustion was worth it, right.
I think that's a huge question, or why do you
want to be in the position you are? Why? Why
are you here? Why are you there? Are you where
you want to right now? I mean I think, yeah,
I am No, I'm exactly where I want to be
because I know that I can make this change if
(40:07):
I keep going with it. Billy Jean King's new book
All In Bill Jane, I felt this quote in my
bones when I read it. When you're actually doing advocacy
work from the inside, you have to be strategic to
get things done. You have to realize that sometimes success
comes incrementally. I often felt radical inside, but outside I
tried to be pragmatic and measured. Oh I read that
(40:29):
like ten times, Billy Jane King, What does that mean
to you? What talk me through that quote? Well, I
think the next sentence in it was really the important one.
I says I wanted to take strong stands without alienating
because your audience is everything. The people I was trying
to you know, change and and you know persuade, and
(40:52):
you know it's and it was a constant, you know,
high high wire act. You know. I was always on
a tight rope. So and I think it's important to
be a u Niner, a uniter. My job is always
to get people together to make this world a better place.
I am really big on that. I think, I really
(41:13):
that's what I care about. I mean when I played
Bobby Riggs is a part in the book talks about
me speaking to um Frank Gifford. He was a great
new York Giants player and in the fifties, and he
worked for ABC, and he said, are you a feminist?
And this is three Remember I'm playing Bobby Riggs. And
(41:36):
I knew if I said, yes, I'm a feminist, I
would lose at least of the audience at least And
I'm going, I can't do this. This is my one
moment when ninety million people are watching, be like a
super Bowl. Maybe back in the now we get over
hunter million, but in seventy three, there weren't as many
people on earth. Um, and so I have a nanosecond
(41:59):
right answer. I gotta answer the guys. Now it's international TV,
And I went, I am really for the women's movement.
I think it will make life better for all of us,
not just women or something like that. Now, I could
have said, of course, I'm a feminist, because to me,
feminist means equal all of us, you know, equality. But
(42:22):
in those days, at that time, you've got to know
what's going on and feel your the peeps and the
people felt if you're a feminist, you hated men and
that was the last thing it means. So you've got
to know where you're at at that time, and what's
gonna fly? What isn't gonna fly? We could have no more.
We didn't have social media, we didn't have phones, We
(42:43):
couldn't we could have never mobilized as quickly as they
do today. I wish we could have because it's you know,
you can get things don faster. Last question for you,
Billy Jean. You know, Um, if we're being honest here,
they're there are NFL coaches who are champions of this effort,
and there are some who don't want to participate and
who aren't male allies. You know, how do we get
more male champions? How do we gain male buy in
(43:03):
faster than what we're accomplishing right now? It's really hard.
I always try to like if we go to see
CEOs or people empower like what you're talking to coaches. Um,
I'll tell you what. It's really hard if they don't
have any daughters or granddaughters or no nieces, that they
only have sons grandsons. They grew up in a family
where it was all boys, like they have three brothers.
(43:25):
I find that's the one that's impossible, that they just
never had very many women in their lives. To see
both sides, to see different sides of everyone, and and
the way we're socialized is so different. We are socialized.
I think both of us are so badly socialized. Boys
are taught to be brave, girls are taught to be perfect.
(43:46):
Perfect means always taken second banana, always taking care of
the other person first. Um, So I try to get
to know the human being. The first question I asked,
usually a CEO or a coach, I would say, tell
me about your family. Do you have new siblings, do
you have children, are you marrying, or do you have
a significant other. I just get to know them as
a human being first, forget the job, because they're human first.
(44:10):
So and then I tried to see if there's a
place I can go. We found in women's tennis that
every CEO that stepped up for us had a daughter,
and the ones that did not have a daughter and
only had sons or had brothers only in their family,
they usually said no. So it's the human connection. You
(44:32):
have to find what is it about this person as
coach that will get him to open his heart and
mind to what we're trying to at least say, to
get started, you gotta get started first with some people
and CEOs you tell us, because we're always going to
companies trying to get him to because CEOs can change
things really fast, just like a coach. The coaches like
(44:53):
the CEO of a team. He he can change things
overnight if he wants. He's got the power. Then I
would talk to the coaches about their legacy. When you
get old, like I'm you know, when you look in
the mirror, you see all these wrinkles in you, and
what do you want to say about yourself? Now most
people talk about, oh, you're at your funeral, and what
do you want everyone to say? No, I think that's
(45:14):
maybe important to somebody. I think more importantly when the
coach looks at himself in this case that what does
he want to leave? What kind of legacy do you
want to leave? I mean, like arians leaving his legacy
of inclusion. It's a heck of a lot more exciting,
peaceful way to leave, knowing you left something positive that's
(45:38):
going to continue to grow and being conclusive. And I
think legacy is huge. I mean, I know, fighting for
equality my whole life since I was twelve very important
to me looking in the mirror and say if I
fought a good fight every single day, because I also
know there's never it's never going to be equal for ever, ever, ever,
But I know that each generation can make it better.
(45:59):
And my job is to help the younger people now.
My job is to help them like you to carry on. Uh.
And I stand on shoulders of people before me, Billy
Jean King. When I told my three year old son
that I was interviewing you today, I said, I'm interviewing
Billy Jan King And he said, does she live in
a castle? And I said, oh, does she? Ever? In
(46:21):
all of our minds will Billy Jeans? I just want
you know, to take this time to thank you for
the sacrifices that you made, everything you did so people
like me can continue your legacy and fight on in
this space. It's an absolute honor to speak with you.
If you love that interview as much as I did,
be sure to check out Billy Jean's new book, All
(46:43):
In An Autobiography. And just when I thought the conversation
around women in football couldn't get any better, I sat
down with Sarah Thomas, the first female official in the NFL.
You won't want to miss this, and you've gotta be
kidding me. I mean, I like sports, my whole life
from five and and because I'm a girl, I can't flay.
It's not like I'm doing this to bust up a
(47:03):
good old voice book. M
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.