Defensive Schemes

We gave the modernized offense some love earlier this season and now it's time to explain defensive schemes. On this episode of the NFL explained. podcast, Mike Yam and Michael Robinson discuss the complexities and considerations of defensive players in today's NFL as play evolves on both sides of the ball.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
NFL Explained is a production of the NFL in partnership
with I Heart Radio, Mike Am and a very thirsty
Michael Robins said, it is the NFL Explained podcast. You know,
we start rolling, and I wish we started rolling like
four seconds earlier. I was like, you gotta you got

(00:29):
over there here. It is a CANNEDI water And I
know my wife always listens to our podcast. Hey beautiful,
Hey baby, how you doing me? Rob when he said thirsty,
he wouldn't talk about my d M Okay, he was
talking about this water right here. Okay, I gotta I
gotta preface that the d m s are coming my way.
And we keep getting some of those questions. By the way,

(00:49):
we got a mailbag episode right around the corner. Keep
them coming. I got another one right before. Did you
check your cell phone? Because that's so right before I
was having lunch. I came downstairs, I checked, and I
got another question and I put it on our text threat.
I needed a double tapped out before we finished up
this episode. And I know what you're thinking, all right, like,
are we talking about hydration for players? Is that today's edition?

(01:10):
It is really important? Did I just come up with
a new idea first. Okay, at some point we're going
to talk about hydration our producers, Like, what are you doing, dude, No,
we're not all right. We have gone through the evolution
of offenses. We've talked about quarterbacks and wide receivers. I've
been saying this for a long time. Can we please
love up the defense? Can we talk about as much,

(01:31):
if not more? I'm trying to an offensive guy as
much importance defense man, just nobody we want points points,
points points, saying a guy who was on a team
with the Legion of Boom and we gave up like
only thirteen points a game. So yeah, you know it's important.
It is, I mean, is that old adage right? Like
defense wins championships and the whole thing. By the way,

(01:51):
we did do another episode of the podcast last season
on does defense truly win championships? If you miss that one,
highly encourage you to go back. But as we've been
talking about all these offenses and rob we realize, like, hey,
defenses have to go and keep up with some of
the evolution that we're seeing on that side of the football.
So for today's episode, we're talking about defensive schemes and

(02:12):
more specifically, what's effective, how teams utilize different personnel. We
got you completely covered, but I think it's probably important
to go through a little bit of the history defenses.
Buddy Ryan it's a name that gets thrown out there
a lot of times. You know, you're listen, you're watching games,
maybe you're listening to him on the radio. Buddy Ryan
is the guy that developed the forty six defense, which
was used by the five Bears. Now we've got some

(02:35):
younger audience, and I hate feeling like I'm old every
single damn episode we did this podcast. Sorry, I like
that great hair. David Carson this to me. He's like, oh,
it's the Wisdom Crown. You know like that, then you're
my guy. Dude, I'm gonna use that all the time. Um,
but I always think when I think eighty five Bears,
I think the SNL skit Bears. You know what I'm saying.
So go back to YouTube, you can check it out.

(02:57):
I feel like you're not really buying the whole SNL thing,
be understand, trust me. All right, So, the forty six
defense actually utilizes eight defenders in the box, six defenders
on the line of scrimmage, which usually doesn't allow teams
to really run the ball effectively. There's usually some big
bodies up front. Dick Lebou invented the zone blitz defense.

(03:21):
Cannot wait to get your thoughts on that and a
little bit more of an explanation coming up here. Tom
Landry known for his famous flex defense. The flex defense
confuse the offense before the snap, odds schemes, defensive lineman
backing off the line of scrimmage, linebackers, safeties constantly moving,
look and rob. When you were talking about quarterbacks, like,
I think about sort of this idea of dudes moving around.

(03:43):
You think it's gonna be one coverage and all of
a sudden, due starts spreading to the other side of
the field. You're like, what did I just see? And
that's why I love working with guys like you, Mike,
because like, I'll never know as much football as you've forgotten.
And I think it's always my job to try to
bring out the stuff that people don't always understand. But
yet we hear the verbics. You're watching games, people talking
about cover two, cover three, They're like, what am I
looking at? I got you, I got all of you guys.

(04:04):
But let's talk a little bit about some of those
basic defensive principles that you just brought up. Sometimes even
here phrases like Nickel, dime, man a man coverage, you know,
blitzing all that stuff. Teams generally will run either a
four three which is four down linemen and three linebackers,
or a three four defense, which is three down linemen
and four linebackers. In recent years, like basically that alignment

(04:28):
at four three or that three four has been described
as a base defense. So can you how about we
start there? Can you just kind of break down four
three three four and and that base defense. Well, first
of all, I want to our listeners in our viewers,
yeah we all YouTube to guys. Yeah, I want everybody
to understand that there's a difference between nickel and dime.
I should have put makeup on before we got here,

(04:49):
because it's all good. We look good. We are we
aren't to Mike's okay, we look good. We don't need
no damn makeup. All right, we gotta understand the difference
between Nickel and dime. Like like those are like coverage personnels.
They aren't coverage calls. They aren't the call calls for
the entire defense. Those are the coverage personnels. Those are

(05:10):
the back end packages that match up with the front seven.
The front seven is your base defense four three or
three four and a four three Right, Oftentimes, you're gonna
have a shade on one side of the center, which
we oftentimes call a one technique. Right, that's a shade.
And then you're gonna have on either guard, not both,

(05:31):
but one of the other on either guard. You're gonna
have a shade on that particular player too. That is
what we call a three technique. And the crazy part
of body is Mike. When you have a shade and
a three technique, the offensive personnel will identify that is
a four down three linebacker type of structure shore four
three structure, meaning you got four linemen, defensive lineman, three

(05:54):
linebackers in the blocking unit. In base offense, if I
have two backs right, five offensive linemen for defensive lineman,
my center can block one way and handle an extra ender,
and our our running backs. One of my running backs
can block another way and handle an extra defender. So
if I keep one back in with my five offensive linement,

(06:14):
I have the ability to block six players. At another back,
I have the ability to block seven at a tight end,
I have the ability to block eight. Okay, so that's
the base for three defense. Now what I hated going
against was a base three four defense. Okay, you know
what I just talked about. I said, the identifying aspect
of a four three base defense is a shade on

(06:36):
the center and one of the guards having a three technique. Okay,
in a base three four you have a head up
guy or a zero technique on the center. So in
slide protections, which all most protections are slab protections where
the center has to slide to help one side of
the offensive line of the other, that zero technique prevents

(06:57):
the slide, which is very important because you lose a
blocker from either way. You got a guy head up
with pressure on the ball, snapping to the quarterback. Now, guys,
zero technique over the center. Okay, Now you have to
guard bubbles. There's nobody over your guards, and a basic
three four defensive structure that you have to guard bubbles.

(07:17):
And then what we have our four eyes. Right, these
are two defensive ends which a inside shade on the
tackle that's called a four eye. An outside shade of
the guard is a three eye, and inside shade of
the tackle is a four eye and when I say shade,
that just means a tilt or a um just kind
of over alignment over a little bit on that side

(07:40):
of the player. So for me, when you have those
two guard bubbles, to me, that's when all the funky
stuff starts to happen, because see, like I don't know,
I'm getting a little technical, but that four eye and
that three technique literally the difference is about six inches.
And in the backfield, sometimes your ask and get a
little messed up. You can fall in the dirt, you
can have a visor on, sweat can be there, and

(08:03):
sometimes you look and you're like, man, I can't tell,
well that's a three technique or four I. And so
what you see on Sundays is constant communication in the
blocking unit. The offensive line talking to the backs in
the quarterback, quarterback talking to the offsive line, just so
that everybody can be on the same page so we
can block the same rule. Okay, So this is probably

(08:23):
a really oversimplistic way of me describing it, but this
is how I kind of always interpreted it over the years,
because I think what you just described with the technique,
it really is a matter of inches and how guys
are lined up. So if I'm in that backfield and
I'm a running back, I kind of look at it
as a numbers game, Like if there's three down lineman, man,
I'd rather run up against three of those dudes having

(08:45):
a guard to be able to find, you know, a
little bit more space than see four guys in a
four three defense. But it sounds like what you're describing
that's not always accurate. It's not always accurate. And again,
to me, the teams that use the three four, they're
more ready for giving an offense protection issues because they
know that we're looking at that four ye at three

(09:06):
on and we're looking to see that difference because it
changes everything in our blocking unit. Right Again, when your
guards are free to move as opposed to your center
being free to move, that changes everything. And so you
have to have special personnel. If you run a base
three four and you have a tough run defense, you
have to have bubble linebackers who are big enough and

(09:28):
strong enough to get big offensive lineman up off of
them and run and make the tackle. And you have
to have a guy at the knows that that zero
technique who can jack the center up share them and
be a playmaker, meaning he can make tackles on his own.
It really is wild. You know, we were talking about
the acumen of a lot of players. Man, dude, defensive dudes.
I don't want to upset anyone. And I haven't talked
to him in a while, but basically buds with an

(09:50):
offensive lineman actually played for the Bills for a bunch
of years back in their early nineties, and I had
said to him like, hey, when you're offensive line, like,
what's what's it? Sort of like because I keep hearing
that all the offensive linemen are really smart dudes. He goes,
let me just tell you something, Mike, offensive lineman smart
students on the football field. You know those d lineman
they're they're like like like hungry dogs. All they have

(10:10):
to do is just go they got one issue. Just
figure out how to get to the quarterback. He's like,
what we're doing in terms of protection, run scheme, all
that stuff? He goes, We're actually gotta think when we're
out there, a little bit of hate towards the is
a lot of things. It's a lot of that going on,
and from an offensive lineman standpoint, I mean, especially the
center I mean, the center has to know just so

(10:31):
much about the offensive blocking unit, has to know about
routes and side adjustments just as much as the quarterbacks
were very important. All right, Welcome back to the NFL
Explained podcasts. Mike Yam and Rob with you. Okay, So
now I think the next question is how how many
teams are running for three? How many teams are running

(10:54):
three four? Alright, so through seven weeks of the season,
sixteen teams we're running the three four defense. Fourteen teams
we're running a four three, so relatively split down the middle.
The two remaining teams are Denver in Detroit. By the way,
man Denver nasty defense, Detroit not so much. But those

(11:17):
two teams have actually used a mix of both. So
it seems to me coaching philosophy, is that the big
reason why they're running the fourth three or three four
or is it personnel? Hey, these are the dudes that
can do X, Y and Z, and that's what we're
gonna run. I think it's a little bit of both.
I'll use an example. You remember when the Dallas Cowboys
they had Rod Marinellia for a while and then they

(11:40):
made the switch and picked up Mike Nolan, who Mike
Nolan is a three four guy. He's a three four
base guy. That's what he loves to do. He was
my head coach with the San Francisco for the Niners.
Mike Nolan is a base three four guy. And then
you looked at the Dallas Cowboys defense that year and
they couldn't stop a nose. Believe that. Yeah, we were
talking about just how historically bad the Dallas Cowboys defense was.

(12:02):
They made pretty much one switch the following year. They
hired Dan Quinn who was a four three guy. It
matched their personnel, and then all of a sudden they
were leading the league and takeaways and now and this
year they're also doing well on defense, and so yeah,
I think it's a little bit of both. I think
coaching styles and coaching philosophy is forced to change. But
the constant trait of a great coach is taking what

(12:25):
you have and being able to coach what you have
and putting your guys in the best position to succeed.
That is why Pete Carroll was all about the three
deep defense. Back when we went on Super Bowl with
the Legion of Boom. It was like, let's run one
simple defense. We have the perfect personnel for it. These
are the only two routes that couldn't beat us. So
on every place, we're only looking for these two routes.

(12:47):
Everything else the defense takes care of, and I think
from a defensive standpoint, our guys took ownership of it. Okay,
So we touched a little bit on four, three or
three for those base defenses. You brought up two coverage packages, right,
like dime, nickel and all that stuff. So we hear
that a lot of times. And then I started thinking
about my day is covering in college football and different
imans that you're seeing there. We've talked about this on

(13:07):
the offensive side. Sometimes what we see in the NFL,
it comes from college coaches, right, and college coaches got
it from high school coaches. Like it's really weird. It's
not NFL down, it's sometimes bottom up what we see
in the league. Most common defensive personnel through seven weeks
of the two season is nickel, which is five defensive

(13:29):
backs on the field. That's you sixty two point four
percent of the plays. According to Next Gen Stats based
personnel which includes four defensive backs has been used twenty
six point three percent of the defensive place, so just
behind that nickel package and then dime personnel. This kind
of surprised me a little bit because we talked about
the evolution of offenses and how many offenses now are

(13:51):
so pass heavy. So dime personnel is six defensive backs.
I thought the numbers would have been slightly higher, but
that's been used nine point six percent of place, so
it's the third no I would know. I wouldn't have
thought it would be higher, just because, yeahs like, there's
still a physical part to football and you can't put

(14:11):
too many defensive backs out there. With the evolution of
our quarterbacks being able to run the football met Josh
Allen is the backup running back for the buffer It
That's what I'm saying. Um Lamar Jackson is the lead
running back for the Baltimore Ravens, and so there's still
an element where you have to have some size on
the field. And I think what we're in the middle

(14:32):
of scene is our defenders bodies starting to change, right.
We saw it with the outside linebacker with Lawrence Taylor,
with some of the defensive schemes were just finished seeing
it with the tight end or eight back position or
fullback position whatever you wanna call it, kind of evolving
and changing. And so yeah, I think guys like Isaiah Simmons,
the outside linebacker slash defensive back slash Russia slash defensive

(14:57):
weapon that the Arizona Cardinals half, I think he's going
to be more of the norm going forward in the
national football Would you throw out a name like Mikael
Parsons as well? Because defensive chess piece, he can play
multiple spots. Again, it's like the Queen, Yes, like the
queen in chess. So like, if I'm always take myself
back to when I'm in the blocking unit, I am

(15:18):
a running back sitting back there looking at a defense.
How do we identify guys? Because it's all about identifying guys.
And when you see Michael Parsons, it's one of those
you're telling you're tackling your guard and you said, hey, guys,
he's a big Okay, I ain't blocking him. You guys
get paid to block that guy. And then Dan Quinn

(15:39):
because Michael Parsons is so dominant, that's a chess piece.
You can put him in certain spots that force an
offense to have to react to him. It's a pretty
neat deal. All right, so you just told a little
bit of a story. And over the weekend I was
working with m j D who told the similar story
from his rookie season and he goes, Byron Leftwich is
our quarterback. He goes, man, it's like the first couple

(16:00):
of weeks and they're telling me there's like they're gonna
build in this this pass pro for me where I
gotta go and like, I forget who the player was,
but it was like a monster. Maybe it was de
Marcus Ware it might have been de Marcus where And
he goes, man, you got I'm getting paid like three
K right like that dude, No, like that ain't happening.
And he's like I started. MGD goes, I'm starting to

(16:21):
get anxiety about it because I go these dudes are
gonna run this stuff like and I can't do I'm
not gonna do it. So they go out there. Game
day comes and he's like, dude, where it blows right
past me left? Which gets blown off. Yeah, and he goes,
I got reamed out, but I said, you know, what
would you expect exactly? He goes and once again that

(16:44):
dude was making it however many million. He goes I'm
making three hundred thousand dollars, he goes, man, I'm running coaches,
good point, my favorite next time, let's just let's not
vocalize that. But I mean he's right. I mean I
remember having arguments. We guy's never gonna be wrong. I
played fullback when I got to Seattle. But myself and
our left tackle Russell Okung playing up against um we

(17:06):
call him cowboy. But Justin Smith for the sempstoo for
it and not is an auton Smith. I mean, when
if Justin iNTS down to a three technique, then Russell
Kong has to block out in Smith. If he stays
at a four, then aut in Smith's mind. And I'm
sitting here like, bro, you get paid all this money, Yeah,
you better block out of Smith. Man is due to

(17:26):
ten time longer than I. No way. But you know
I had to do my thing from so that that
little saying business decisions, all right. So I know we
were talking a little bit about some of these dbs
as well. So if you notice with Diamer Nickel packages,
there are a lot of dbs on the field, which means,
to your point, a little less linebackers out there as

(17:47):
offenses have evolved being run first to pass first. Defensive Actually,
they've adjusted from Buddy Ryan's eight man in the box
defenses to Leslie Frazier's almost exclusive nickel personnel usage. Linebacker
usaid check this out has actually gone down in recent
years in favor of more defensive backs who are better
are in coverage. Fifteen years ago, two thousand seven NFL

(18:09):
teams used three or more linebackers on just over seventy
one percent of the plays. In the first seven weeks
of two, NFL teams used three or more linebackers on
six percent of the place. So in fifteen years talking
about a seven percent dropped. Many NFL teams today they're
looking for those versatile dudes that are out there. We
just talked about, right, Michael Parsons one of those guys

(18:31):
that we brought up. It's just it's sort of fascinating
to see and feel and watch when you're watching some
of these games, just what these dudes actually look like.
There's actually a pretty wide variance and blitzing across the league.
Last season, the Dolphins dialed up pressure on almost of snaps,
where the Raiders only did it on fourteen percent of snaps.

(18:52):
Now the raiders actually still pretty good at get into
the quarterback despite not blitzing. There's a part of me
and says, you know, bring the heat, bringing the heat.
There's like that aggressive side of me, and then they
I go, man, I might not want to be all
that aggressive. Maybe it's that ben don't break once again
coaching philosophy, or is that based on personnelity some of
those decisions, Um, okay, sound like a broken record. I

(19:15):
think it's a little bit of both. I mean, because
it is coaching philosophy. You do have coaches out there
who want to force action, meaning they're gonna blitz just
to get you to throw the ball to a certain
place so that they can dictate where the ball goes
and then rally and make the tackle. You got some
coordinators like a Matt ebra Flus, who's the head coach
for the Chicago Bears. Now he's the guy that he's

(19:36):
gonna play zone. He's gonna bend a little bit. He's
gonna leave a zone open that he knows the quarterback
is gonna see. It's oftentimes gonna be a shorter route,
shorter checkdown, and he's gonna have all eleven guys rally
to the ball to make the tackle. That's a bend
but don't break type of defense. I'm like this, and
obviously i'm Bill's my office. I like they play nickel
martin any other team in the National Football League, So

(19:58):
you know, obviously I know a lot about them, but
the personnel has to be there as well. They have
a nickel back in Tehran Johnson. Okay, I think he's
number for This guy is amazing because again he's a
defensive back, but he has the heart that he has,
the willingness, he has the toughness to be able to
sit in the box, cover tight ends, share blocks from

(20:18):
tight ends, and be able to make the tackle in
what we call the briar patrol between the tackles. So
he's uniquely built to be able to do that. They
also understand how to play their safeties, right do you
have guys like Michael had and Jordan Poor. I know
they're banged up right now, and they have some young
guys that are playing there right now. Um Marlowe just
signed back with those guys, so I think he's gonna

(20:40):
be there for the championship run. But you gotta have this.
I'm already already did you see that. But you know
what I'm saying, They getting ready for un UM. But
you gotta have the safeties to be able to identify
trigger and be able to go to the box when
they see run. It's about playing currying these quarterbacks, these

(21:02):
dynamic quarterbacks with two safeties high. We talked about Vick
fan deal early in the podcast, how he kind of
his style of defensing where you have two safeties high,
giving the illusion of the light box, doing some games
in the box to be able to stop the run,
and then having dominant players. I mean, like I tell
people all the time, like with the Buffalo Bills, you
got a vom Miller who commands a double team on

(21:24):
pass Ruch. You've gotta add Oliver who commands a double team.
With Tim Settle who commands a double Tippy. You've got
all of these guys who command double teams. They're gonna win.
It used to be the old adage. Offensive coordinators want
to get their guys one on one. If I can
get this offensive lineman one on one with this defensive lineman,
we should win. My guy gets paid. We should be
one on one. That's no longer the case anymore. These

(21:45):
defenders are just too good and that's why you're seeing
defenses like this work. You know, I think too. You know,
talk about safeties, right, like guys are really fast, you
know from an offensive standpoint, you know this man, like
nothing better, Like if you're a quarterback throwing the touch hank,
you know, coming out of the back field, getting into
that end zone. I always think it's really cool when
there's like that safety and you know, the guys starts

(22:07):
dropping back a little bit and as soon as the
ball is snap, it's dead sprint to the quarterback numbers,
game completely untouched, just a nihilates, like in my mind,
like that's gotta be like they're Super Bowl obviously getting
a pig is though. It's nice, but it's like yo, man,
I'm bringing the heat and it's awesome. So you got
some aggressive that a little bit, see, I know. Yeah, yeah,

(22:28):
probably was a linebacker in this form of life, you
know what I'm saying. Yeah, and I got I got
punished with the body that I have now, so we
are we ain't playing I'll be like the water boy,
you know, director of player personnel on the front office, right,
Like that's that's more more built for that at this
point that may have been a lineback, but in all honesty,
like again, with the dynamics of these quarterbacks. Man, we

(22:48):
talked about these quarterbacks getting all the reps in high school,
all the reps in literal lyue going to these passing camps.
They're coming to the National Football League ready to throw
the football to coming to the National Football League, ready
to push the ball downfield. Again, I'm one of those guys.
I like to just look at opportunity calls. Right, If
I'm a defensive coordinator, if I can affect the quarterback
with just four or three, why would I ever send

(23:09):
extra Russians to me? That's the way to do it,
especially with the caliber quarterback our lower leagues are given us.
So you're talking about personnel and what you bring to
the table blitzing, I just want to throw some numbers
towards people once again. First seven weeks of season, teams
have blitz on twenty seven percent of defensive plays. One

(23:30):
percent of plays are five man blitz is, six percent
of plays are six plus blitzers. Man, can I stop?
People have to understand five man blitzer is usually come
with zone coverage behind it because you only send in
one extra rusher, so you still have enough guys in coverage.
You still have six guys in coverage where you can

(23:52):
have a three deep and three underneath where you still
have enough eyes to defend the other eligible receivers that
are out there. When you start getting into this six
or more rushers, now you're talking about what we call
zero coverage. Now we talk about listeners. When you watch
the game and you start seeing third and eight and
third and six in critical situations in the game and

(24:13):
what we call offense. Look, all you see is a
line of defensive backs behind everybody else that's at the
line of scrimmage. That's zero coverage. When you get into
six and more blitzers, that's zero coverage. And again that's
the difference. And you got some defensive coordinators who specialized
in the zone dogs. We you know, we talked about
Dick Leboll a little bit earlier, who was the inventor
of that. That's the guy sending five overloading one side

(24:35):
of the offense of blocking unit with pressure while dropping
in the zone. That's zero pressure. That's what Patrick Mahomes
and Josh and they like that because it's usually touchdowns
on the back in there. No, just just flinging it
and and it's you know, straight to the end zone
for six. Um. A little more context here on blitzing.
I'm glad you actually stopped me. Their NFL teams, they've
generated pressure on quarterbacks on of non blitz plays compared

(25:00):
to thirty four percent of blitz plays that resulted in
quarterback pressure. So, as you can imagine, it probably does
pay to blitz. I got some sack rates for some people.
I'm not gonna go through all of them, but I'll take,
for example, sack rate no blitz five point six percent,
one blitzing nine point eight percent. Those numbers generally twenty two,

(25:23):
relatively stable. There's some upticks here and there, but generally speaking,
the point is blitzer get to the quarterback. How much
pressure is there, m rob It's obvious because the quarterbacks
the one facing it. But what does blitzing actually due
to an offense? What kind of pressure does that create? Oh?
It creates a tremendous amount of pressure. First of all,
when you're sending more than five, right, because again, if

(25:45):
a defense sence five defenders, generally speaking, you would think okay,
it was my five can block there five? Now you
know some may lose on one on one protection, but
generally speaking, my five will block there five Again, when
you start adding more to it. As a running back, right,
I might be a premier runner, But now my bill
the need to protect the quarterback and hold up and

(26:07):
pass protection and my liability and is this something that
I know how to do? Can I hold up without
holding all of those things? And when you keep running
backs in, when you keep tight ends in for protection,
whether it's to help the tackle or whether it's because
of blitz and guys, there's only but so many routes
they can do after that. Like I think our listeners
need to truly understand when you see running backs and

(26:29):
tight ends on the outside blocking guys are being there
to stop the blitz or help tackles. They're only running
a flat route after that. So again, now you're having
you've got five eligible receivers. Two of the five now
are only relegated to flat routes. And the defense knows this.
And so it's all about numbers and angles, and it's
all about out leveraging the other side defenders because they

(26:49):
don't usually defend the quarterback usually have that leverage. All right,
I know, We've talked about some of the base personnel
and what offenses are seeing depending on what's coming their
way with some of these blitzers. But when we come
back here, what defensive schemes are happening in the defensive secondary,
we'll talk about that and what defensive using their scheme
to become the best in the league that's still become

(27:10):
here on the NFL Explained podcast. All right, we got
our mail bag episode right around the corner with love
for people to continue to fire off some of those questions.
If you want to sign into the d m s,
keep getting them at Mike Underscore again, feel free and

(27:31):
Rob and I will take everyone through a special mail
bag episode right around the corner. But we've been talking
about defenses. The evolution of defense is what we're actually
seeing on that side of the field, and defenses, once again,
you're playing a little bit of catch up, right because
what they do is dictated on what the offense is doing.
We talked a little bit about blitzing and how it
can wreak havoc on an offense, but what are the

(27:53):
dbs actually doing those defensive backs in defensive schemes, whether
it's a heavy run attack or heavy passing attack, and Rob,
I want you to take me through what some of
these defensive backs are doing. We hear terms like cover three,
zone D, defense, man to man. How about this, how
about we just explain the coverage and then I'll go
through some of the numbers how often it's used. So

(28:14):
maybe we start cover zero alright, Cover zero, right, So
cover zero if you hurt me a little bit earlier,
I talked about if you're sending six guys or more, okay,
then you got man on man on the outside. You
got man on man all across the board. There's five
defensive backs. If you're sending six guys, there's only eleven
guys on the field. If you're sending six, you have

(28:34):
five defenders for the five eligible receivers. Right, being the
extra defender rushing the quarterback has to handle that, and
so zero coverage it just means no extra help. There's
man the man across the board, but the quarterback also
has the free defender. He has the free defender because
again he is the guy accounting in the number as well,

(28:56):
and the defense will always have an extra defender. Tell
me if I'm wrong here. Cover zero, no safeties, cover one.
It's single high safety, cover two two safeties. Teas Is
that a good way of thinking of it, Well, that's
a group. That's a good way of thinking of it.
The reason why I don't say it that way because
there's still safeties on the field. Sure, they just they're
they're locked in man coverage. So I don't like to

(29:17):
say no safeties because that can kind of you know,
anybody listening. So we're at the safety, so they just
bring more corners on the field. No, the safeties are
still there, they're just in man where their positions. So
basically you're saying, based off of zero coverage, middle of
field is open, so to speak, and then single high
cover one, middle of the the field closed, but usually cover one. Again,

(29:39):
there's an extra defender either sending that extra defender or
that extra fenders playing what we call a rat or spy,
or he's an extra guy in the middle of the
field where his other defensive backs can front or receivers too,
which takes us to cover. How about we go cover
three because at that point and cover two once again,
two safeties up high, essentially getting half of the field

(30:00):
and that open space that covered two covered two basically
it's two safeties high. Both safeties have a half of
the field, okay, and you have five guys underneath. Okay.
You got your three linebackers in their hooks own coverages,
and then your corners they have the flats. Cover three
it's basically three deep, meaning there's a safety in the
middle field. He has the middle third, the outside corner

(30:24):
has one third, the other corner has another third okay,
and then the underneath coverage, which usually consists of a
drop down safety, linebacker which is the will linebacker, the
mic linebacker, and the same linebacker. So three deep, four
cross underneath, and four Russian and again, really three deep
is not to give up the explosive plasure. Teams that

(30:46):
played three deep, their corners are playing looking at the
quarterback playing over top of the routes, knowing that they
have underneath coverage that's dropping to help him out. You know,
it's fascinating because people are listening to this podcast. You
used the term before he said spy, and right, I
haven't even heard of anyone say rat I A. Let's
think about it as spy. And it's funny because I'm
gonna ask you about cover four and I never I

(31:07):
know this sounds crazy. I don't. Maybe it's just the
people that I've been around. I never hear Cover four.
I only hear quarters, so like that's kind of how
I always associated with So. I mean you've been around
and usually in football circles, most guys are gonna say
quarters and quarters basically are is two safeties high. One
corner has a quarter of the field, one safety as
a quarter, the other safety as a quarter, and the

(31:29):
other corner has another quarter. Okay, and I think that's
three zones underneath that's focus through. That's seven plus the
other four. That's eleven. Okay, Yeah, with four rushers. I
always gotta do my math that way, man um. And
the special thing about cover four is your safeties are
reading the number two receiver. If the number two receiver blocks,
they are the run support. So they are the extra defenders.

(31:52):
They are the defenders that in Vic Fangio's defenses, those
support players gave Mike Robson problems. Yes, I've gone through
some of my notes here and it just dawned on me,
like Cover six, like I've never even heard of someone
referencing cover no. And even there's no Cover five on
my list. Well, it's hard to have a Cover two
and a Cover three at the same damn time, you

(32:14):
know what I'm saying. But Cover six Cover six, you
know you can do that, right because both of those
coverages are middle of feel open, so you can combo
those coverages. So the Cover two side of things, usually
you put that into the boundary. Usually there's a corner
who's willing to tackle. Usually that's also a corner who
you can blitz in and be able to affect the quarterback.

(32:35):
And so it's covered two to one side where it's
a rolled up corner where a safety has that half
of the field, and then on the other side there's
a corner who has a quarter in the safety as
a quarter with again the same underneath coverage is going along.
That's a lot. Now, I hope people are are staying
with us, and there's a lot of football going on. Man,
we're talking. There's a lot of football. No here, here's
a bit of a podcast, right, or if you're scrolling

(32:57):
and watching on YouTube, you scroll back, you can do
little back, so you just give us a good snap
shot of the different coverages. I want to rows this
year way here in terms of what's being used most commonly,
Cover three, most commonly used coverage scheme through the first
seven weeks of the two seasons. It's about thirty five
percent of defensive plays. That's according to PFF. Following Cover

(33:20):
three the next most common scheme Cover one at pent
Cover four at thirteen percent, Cover two at thirteen percent,
and Cover six at eight percent. Now, according to Next
Gen Stats, teams are using man defense on thirty one
percent of plays in two while using zone on sixty

(33:41):
percent of place. So the rates are basically the same
as twenty one featuring man seventy percent zone. You know,
I'd be interested in seeing what that's that is from
the seventies because when you're talking about running backs being
the highlight of offenses, running games being the premier. I mean, hell,

(34:03):
the wide receiver's gotten three point stance. Okay, So the
run game was it, and so the middle of the
field had to be closed to get the extra defender
in the box. You see what I'm saying. I believe
now you're seeing a lot of the zone coming up
now and a lot of the two safety high numbers
going up now because of the quality of the quarterbacks
were getting. That's the only way to defend these guys

(34:24):
with you there, and I think it screams to what
we discussed in our Evolution of Offenses podcast edition. Just
the game is just different than it was in the seventies. Um.
Just one of the note by the way, on the
two high safety defenses, so cover two, that's actually steadily
increased over the past five or six years. And you're
kind of smiling knowing and not surprised because quarterbacks generally

(34:46):
performing a little worse against cover two this season compared
to what they did the prior to seasons. I don't
know what I would point to on that. It's this
so cover to pure covered two with only four rushers, okay,
you're dropping seven, there's more underneath defenders. Every time you
put an of the defender into coverage, think about the yams.

(35:08):
The windows get smaller. You take a guy out of coverage,
the windows get bigger. And so what's starting to happen
now is you're starting to force the quarterback to be
more precise. You're forcing the quarterback to be more of
a playmaker. You're forcing the quarterback to have more opportunities
for mistakes too. And so that's all because if the
game is played right, and defensive coordinators notice and how

(35:30):
the defense corners don't get mad at real mic rob
I didn't I didn't make the rules. Okay, I didn't
make the rules. I just played the game. Don't hate
the player, hate the game, you know what I'm saying.
But if offenses do what they're supposed to, they win
almost all the time. Like that's just how it is.
Like Bill, Like you hear Bill Belichick talk about defenses,
He'll say, like, we're just gonna play right and they're

(35:52):
gonna mess up. When they mess up, we'll be in
the right position to take advantage of it. So yeah, man,
come on defense. Alright. So one other note here, because
I'm actually looking at some of the numbers, it's actually
really fascinating to me. Quarterbacks against cover t versus twenty
twenty one versus what we have so far in the
two season. Completion percentages in down to seventy percent in two.

(36:17):
The biggest difference in my mind is the because generally speaking,
the numbers actually are trending down, but the passing touchdowns
to interceptions, I mean, check this out. In touchdowns fifty
seven picks, thirty two touchdowns, sixty two picks it's almost
not fair. I'm not. I mean, I'll give the numbers
because you know, basically at the halfway point, but eight touchdowns,

(36:38):
twenty seven interceptions. So the point is, like the pick right, man,
it's it's going the wrong way for offense. It's going
the wrong way for offenses. And again, as much as
we talk about the evolutions of offenses and how you know,
passing camps and quarterbacks are getting more reps, and well
obviously was doing this thing we we talked about our
own previous podcast. Well, these guys are running these routes,

(36:59):
getst air, they're not playing like by themselves. The defenders
are getting these reps as well, and they're getting opportunities
the football a little bit more. They used to be
the difference you used to we always say in football,
the difference between a defensive back and the receiver is
the fact that a receiver can catch. They're the same guy.
But what's starting to happen now with defenders, they're starting
to really be able to catch. I think that's why

(37:19):
we're starting to see interceptions come up. All right, So
defenses obviously create a ton of chaos with blitzing. We
love turnovers because turnovers go a long way to winning
the game. Positive turnover margin in a giving game give
you a better than seventy five percent chance of winning.
The last five seasons, teams that have not forced to
turn over any giving game have lost greater than thirty

(37:41):
percent of the time in the past five seasons. So
I get it. Wins are always there. But m Rob,
I'm telling you, man, you see a team get a turnover,
you look at that sideline. Those dudes are going crazy.
The whole game is about the ball. The whole game
is about the bar. Remember Mike Nolan bringing a football
into our team meeting room because we were sorry as
I'll get out in San Francisco for a little bit,

(38:01):
and we had a fumbling problem and turning the football
over problem, and we went around the room and we
all had to hold a football and we were just
talking about what the ball means to us, what this
game means to us. And he made the statement, like, guys,
this ball is everybody's hopes and dreams. Don't use it carelessly,
don't handle it carelessly, and it's all about it defense.

(38:22):
If we get the ball off this offense more then
we give it away, we win the game that simple,
and so it was more of a focus about the
football to the point when I was in Seattle, let
me Pete. Pete designed the whole day around it. H
We call it no turnover Thursday because I'm offense, so
we don't turn the football over jams. But if you're
on the defense, you would call it turn over Thursday.
We didn't turn the football over that much, so we

(38:43):
didn't have it. We didn't have a lot of turn
over Thursdays. But yeah, it's it's really all about the ball.
It speaks to what you're saying. Because Melvin Gordon earlier
this season was having some fumbling issues, right whatever. The
numbers were like three or four fumbles in a two
three weeks spam and I was watching the broadcast to
grew up a Giants fan. Tiki Barber had some of
those same issues, right Yeah, and they were telling the story.

(39:05):
I heard the story where t K at one point
that the fumbling got so bad, like he would walk
around the practice facility all the time with the ball,
like not even during like just always on him. So
it's that's subtle reminds mental mental every phone well I've
ever had in my life, yams A lot of you not.
I thought about it ten seconds before it had stopped. Seriously,

(39:26):
I was playing the Giants. That was feeding me the ball.
I'm like, I'm finding I'm fitting get a touchdown in
New York State and Giants Stadium. And right before I
got it on the fourth time in a row inside
the two yard line, I said, Mike, just just hold
onto the ball. This would be really stupid if you
would fumble this close. You'll fallback. We don't get we
don't get an end zone. Dude. I took the belly,

(39:48):
the ball hit my guards elbow, wasn't even a defender.
Ball popped out. Last time I got the ball that season, Yeah,
and I think that was like week nine, bro. Yeah,
don't get me started. Bro. All right, the last question
I will ask you for this podcast. Last year and
I referenced it at the top, we did an episode
does defense win Championships? I ask you, my offensive fighter,

(40:11):
Does defense win championships? Um? Yes, offenses get you to
the show, But stopping the other team more than they
stop you wins the big game. I mean, that's going
to always be the truth in football, and it's also
a truth in life. I could go further. But okay,
I'm with you. I'm with you. I know you want

(40:31):
to talk offense and let's just throw it for more
points beyond the offensive. But even in boxing, what de
Floyd Mayweather teach us, he was all about defense of
the boxes ever play. I'd rather be great on both
sides of the ball if I had to choose. But
I know that's not always reality. But I'll tell you, man,
there is something to be said for in these critical moments,

(40:51):
can you execute at a high level. Like generally speaking,
maybe it comes down to one session. I'd rather be
the offensive team in that scenario, but I think big picture,
in the course of a game in the postseason, You're
probably right, that's what I'm saying. It was in the
postseason for a champion in a championship, I'm rolling defense.
But man, man, week nine, Week ten, something like that,

(41:12):
I'll no, I'm with you. Um. Look, I appreciate everyone
listening to this podcast, and it should be noted we dude,
you guys are awesome. Man. We get all these like
questions and d m s and feedback, and it's been
super gratifying to do this show next week here in
the States and I say in the States, because we've
got a lot of international d ms. In the States,
we have Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving comes I work because I'll

(41:35):
be in studio on Thanksgiving Day, we watch football. What
that means for us is there's not a brand new there. Well,
let me say this, there'll be a brand new episode, right,
It'll be our mail bag episode. Keep firing off those
questions and we'll we'll get them all compiled for everyone.
We just want to have like a evolution of defense,
like not a brand new, big picture topic. Just ask

(41:57):
those questions, man, and ask anything you know. I go there,
I go there anywhere. Uh. And Rob the Teacher uh
and and it's not just football, the life teacher as
well at Real Mike Rob. You can find him on
Twitter at Mike Underscore. Yeah, this is defensive schemes explained