Is the Running Back Position in Decline?

Here on the NFL explained. podcast, Yams and M Rob talk a lot about the evolution of the game, and on this episode, they cover the running back. Listen as they discuss the rise of the running back in the game of the past, and how today's state of play is changing up the run game. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
NFL Explained is a production of the NFL in partnership
with I Heart Radio. All Right. It's a brand new
edition of the NFL Explained podcast by Yamlaw with my
Super Bowl champion friend Michael Robinson. Ready to rock and
Roll and rob You and I got into a little

(00:27):
bit of an argument before we started the show. Millennial.
I'm fringe. I kind of want to be gen X
because I think there's a there's like a vibe about
millennials that like not necessarily like the positive that I
don't feel like I'm aligned with. You classify yourself also
as French millennial. Yes, yes, we are friends millennials, right,
I'm an early eighties baby, Mike. So at the end

(00:50):
of the day, I remember when we didn't have social media.
I remember when we got social media, and I'm not
totally addicted to it. So that makes me a fringe,
makes us fringe millennial. I'm glad you classified your your
non addiction to social media is I'm not totally addicted
to it as in because I hang with you sometimes
like you're you're on it, so uh, and I know

(01:11):
people do that you are you are and people keep
dming me questions which by the way, I always brings
a smile to my face, and of course keep them
coming because there's another bad episode around the corner. I
bring up this whole millennial thing because it kind of
pertains to what our subject matter is for this episode.
But is there like a memory, like something specific from

(01:32):
your childhood that just doesn't exist anymore that you wish did?
Blockbuster like vhs, LL tapes like bro like that used
to be something in my household. We used to go
rent movies and guess what, we take it back, you
know what I mean, and go get something else. What
a notion, you know I'm saying. I don't think the
kids these days, even Julie understand, was like a ritual.

(01:55):
It was a thing in my household, and it just
let us know that we can stay up late, eat
popcorn and all those things. So it kind of I
don't know what's set the move for going into the weekend. Yeah,
it was like a big thing on a Friday and
my mom would drive me. I used to get to
pick the movie, but you know, m rob like there
was that cut off time that that needed to be
seen and done because we weren't paying the extra late
fee like that was exactly not exactly. I bring this

(02:18):
up because for as much as we remember and the
glory days, because I still classify some of that stuff
as glory days. You know, the NFL game has changed
as well. In fact, when m Rob, when you and
I were listening to our walkman's and our discmand's, running
backs were reigning supreme. So today's NFL explained, we are
all about the running back position, specifically the decline. And

(02:40):
I know I kind of write the decline. Doesn't it
feel bad to say we're here dancing and then you
say the decline and I'm like, I don't know, We'll
see yams. I hear that narrative of a lot, right,
But like when you talk to defenders, they're like, man,
I'd rather I'd rather go on the pass, Like if
you got one of those guys, man, it's it's I

(03:01):
don't really want to play against those guys all the time.
I think it's maybe NFL offenses involving as well. Well.
There is an episode on the evolution of offenses, uh,
the evolution of wide receivers. If you've missed any of
those episodes, bad job by you, but it's all good.
You can make up for. You can check out a
couple of those podcasts that M Rob and I did
earlier this season. I do think it's important to go

(03:23):
through some of the philosophies around the usage of running backs,
but also in the Super Bowl era, what we've seen
in terms of teams actually taking them. And I actually
remember this switch go off in my head around fantasy
drafts where you started to maybe even step away a
little bit. At times you just realize, like, oh my god,

(03:44):
the production for some of these running backs when I
was a kid just different than what they were as
I got a little bit older, So your draft strategy
started to change a little bit. Check this out, Emrod.
The number of running backs taken in the top ten
of the draft, it has taken a big dive here.
Nineteen seventies, you had seventeen taken in the top ten.
The eighties when when we were just getting born as

(04:05):
millennial eighties, there were seventeen. The nineties, it dipped a
little bit to twelve. The two thousands still the greatest
age of hip hop. I don't care what anyone says.
Nine seven and I know we're still early in the twenties,
but M Rob it's a doughnut right now. Zero running
backs have been taken in the twenties. In fact, since

(04:26):
the Giants State took one of our guys, say Kwon Barkley.
The four years without a running back taken in the
top ten, it's the longest stretch in league history. To me,
that is just mind boggling. And rob to hear numbers
like that, it is mind boggling. And it's only mind
boggling because of how much the running back meant to
the game early on, right, And I think that there's
just so many different factors that come into place when

(04:49):
you run in the football games, it's eleven on eleven.
Like it's eleven guys, it takes all eleven players, even
the quarterback carrying out. It's fake. It takes eleven people
to run the football. And it's a physical thing, right
and you know, our game is physical. Football is physical.
But as we're trying to make the game a little
safe for all players and things like that, I think
the evolution of the passing game along with you know,

(05:11):
being safer, I think that's why you're seeing a little
bit of I don't want to use the word decline
and running back to Yams. But I'm gonna say a
little bit of looking at the running backs is a
little is less importance to an offense. The usage has
definitely changed, and we'll get into some of those usage numbers,
but I think there might be some fans listening right
now that go all right, Yams, you went top ten

(05:34):
in terms of the running backs. What about first round guys? Well,
there's also been and I don't know what other words
to use other than decline and rob sorry my friend
in the first round, but just just to just set
the stage here, seventies there was forty four running backs
take him in the first round. The eighties they were
actually fifties slight uptick, and then it started to go downhill.
Nineties thirty four running backs to two thousands, thirty sixteen,

(05:59):
and in the twenties just three running backs take him
in the first round. As for number one overall running backs,
the last running back to go number one overall? Any
idea and Rob like, I feel like you might have
at least somewhat of an idea just kind of knowing
your history. Who that Yeah? Okay, good Johnah Carter, you
already know I knew that one. I mean that's one

(06:20):
of those ones. I mean, you remember the rose Bow
when he brooke first play all the way, I mean,
don't get me started, don't give me started. When you
go to Penn State, do they just like have that
on like a video loop, like just moments like that.
In my head, it does. You know what I'm saying.
It's nowhere like FOA, but in my head, yes, it
is there. Uh well, m Rob. We actually have six

(06:40):
running backs that have been drafted first overall in the
Super Bowl era. Ricky Bell in seventy seven or O
Campbell in seventy eight, Billy Sims in eighty, George Rogers
and one Bo Jackson in a six, and then Carter
and n side note. I saw a video and it
was we at some point m ROB should do an
episode about the best athletes to ever play football. Bo

(07:04):
Jackson's gotta be on that list and Dion Sanders. I
saw baseball clips of the two of them playing each other.
It was somewhere on social media somewhere. I was like, dude,
Bow was no joke. Bow is still probably the best
athlete I think the world has ever seen. I'm with
you on that one. I mean again, I don't want
to talk about his injury too much, but to me,
he almost ran up out of his hill. I mean

(07:27):
you just look at how he was running to do
so powerful off each single leg. I I remember that
baseball catch really kind of ran up on the wall
baseball wall. Oh, he's like straight up spider Man. Yes, yes,
so you know how fast you gotta be running to
actually do that, actually make that jump and stick to
the wall as you're running. I mean, it's just it's
just phenomenal, man, What a great athlete. What's after Millennials?

(07:48):
Is it gen Z? I have no idea. Okay, so
for that have no idea. I think it is so yeah,
because X is before. So for the gen Zers or
the young millennials, please YouTube Bo Jackson highlights. Trust me,
it'll be worth like the five minutes to go down
this EA path and maybe you'll never get out of
the rabbit hole. UM. I mentioned sa Kwon Barkley a

(08:10):
little bit earlier here. He's one of those guys that
I think has been as dynamic running back when he's
healthy that we've seen in the NFL. But you tell me,
m ro because we're seeing the numbers decline in terms
of produce, maybe not production, actually a little bit on
the production side, But in terms of going in that
first round, what are those traits? Like Barkley was special
enough to be taken in the first round, in the

(08:31):
top five, But is there something that you would point
to for the traits that a current running back needs
to have to be successful on Sundays? Well, I think again,
and it goes back to the style of offenses that's
being presented in the National Football League right now. We
gotta we gotta be honest about things. Our game revolves
around the quarterback position. Pass Rushers get paid a lot

(08:52):
of money. Guys that can protect those guys get paid
a lot of money. Now you're seeing an uptick and receivers,
the guys catching the ball from those guys make a
lot of money. And when you look at the running
back position, it's really the only position where when when
me as a running back, Yams I get the football,
for a lot of times it's seven yards behind the
line of scrimmage in all eleven defenders all eleven of

(09:14):
have their eyes on you and start to attack the
line of scrimmage to make the tackle. Like when a
wide receiver catches the ball twenty yards down feel, the
fifteen yards down feel. He may have two or three guys,
three or four guys if you if you got guys
tracing and coming back to make the tackle. But that's
what makes the running back position like so unique. And
I think that's why I take such a toll on guys.

(09:36):
And when you talk about generational backs like a se
Kwan Barkley, who I believe is a generational back, a
guy like a Marshawn Lynch beastmo with the guy that
I played with, who I believe, Um, those guys are
generational backs to me. You can put them in any offense. Okay,
they can run any scheme and they're super explosive. They're
the guys that scare defensive coordinators like that they may
go eighty yards for a touchdown like and totally outrun

(09:59):
the defense. I remember when Reggie Bush came in with
me when we first came in the National Football League
in two thousand and six. The talk around, man, if
this guy gets on the corner. I mean, I was
attempted before the Niners and we play them, and I
think you scored two or three touchdowns just being in
space and out running everybody. So to me, from a
generational backstandpoint, it doesn't matter what offense that you're in.

(10:20):
You can do anything, you can catch, you can protect
all of those things. But just playing the position and
being serviceable in the position. And I know a lot
of our listeners may not agree with me or understand this,
but number one, you gotta be coachable. You can't just
go out there and do what you want to do
because you think that you know you're able to outrun everybody.

(10:43):
And you see what I'm saying, and does one thing
my running back coach told me in Seattle, Sharrem Smith.
He used to always say, I can coach you from
point A to point B, but after point B, that's
what the creator made you for. That's you. You see
what I'm saying. So I think sometimes running back coaches
get themselves in trouble about over coaching the position, you
know what I mean. So Number one, as a player,

(11:05):
you got to be coachable. You gotta understand scheme and
things like that. I think number two, whether generation or
any type of running back contact balance. Again, I just
described scenarios where all eleven guys are coming after you
when you get the football five to six yards behind
the line of scrimmages unlike any other position. So oftentimes
you're gonna have to go through some dirt, You're gonna
have to go through some trash. You're gonna have to

(11:27):
be able to take hits, you know what I'm saying,
And and and and get through this orchestration of blocking
to get you to the second level so that you
can be very special and do with the creative puts
you on just planning to do, and that's run, make
people miss, and be explosive and things like that. I'm
not gonna sit here and say right now that having
that super breakaway speed is something that you have to

(11:48):
have at the position. But definitely being coachable, having contact
balance and obviously not turning the football over, being able
to get hit and not cost the football up, and
obviously getting dirty three or four yards things like that,
to me, that would get you on the field, and um,
depending on the level of skill you have throughout that

(12:09):
little checklist of some things that I just threw out
there to me, that would determine, you know, how much
you get the football, how much will use you in
the office. You brought up Marshawn Lynch and Reggie right,
So to me, you classified them both as generational, but
I think they did it so differently, right, I mean
you just talked about Reggie just doing it in space

(12:31):
like I think about beast just running over you. Am
I hold up, Hold up, I want to correct you.
And maybe I misspoke. I wasn't saying Reggie was generational. Back.
What I was saying is his speed, right when you
put him in space like Sean Payton did totally mess
defenses up. No, No, what I mean. And being the

(12:52):
fact that he's a running back that contact balance, he
can break tackles, and I think you're starting to see
that with guys like Tyreek Hill and things like that.
When you talk about beast mode, Yeah, if you're a
pack team guy, you come back. People don't remember beasts
over that cow. U Oh yeah. Dude was like two
five pounds. He caught bubble screens and would go ninety yards.

(13:14):
You know what I'm saying. The b smoke thing came
when when he did encounter contact, it was like, dude,
he was like the Tasmanian devil. He just didn't want
to You just didn't want to tackle him. But be
smo had real speed. I mean, we had to play
against Detroit. I think it was inel We had a
little pitch play. Um I ended up cutting down the
the the alley defender, and I actually as I'm rolling

(13:36):
on the ground, you can't cut these guys in space
no more. But as I'm rolling on the ground, I
see him, you know, basically take a stride over top
of me and go seventy six yards. He was two
hundred thirty pounds. I mean, just the explosion off each
single leg. Um be smore a little different games. I
thought that might be a whole podcast on its own.
Be smoke, just a little different. When you talk about

(13:57):
the running back position, well that I'm actually glad you
classic characterized it that way because I thought you met
with Reggie that the plus one and what he was
able to do in space that was like the generational
type aspect of his game, whereas like bism was like
the totality of the everything that he did. So that's
kind of where I was going with you look at

(14:17):
it that way. I mentioned the guys that were drafted.
I got some other numbers for you. M Rob the workhorse,
because you always think about the guy that's just the
bell cow back. It actually hit its peak in the
nineties and the early two thousands. So check out some
of these numbers here and rob the number of running
backs averaging at least eighteen carries per game. Check this

(14:37):
out nine, there were twelve two thousand, fifteen, two thousand, five, fourteen, nineteen, three, three,
and then in two right now four. So in two
thousand four, I know that's a lot of numbers here,
but you would stick with me in two thousand four,
it's crazy right now four it's and you'll you'll know

(15:02):
who those dudes are because it's obviously not a long list.
But uh, two thousand four, sixteen running backs average twenty
plus carries a game as a starter. I know there's
a lot of numbers here, but just stick with me.
Through fifteen weeks, we only have to just two guys,
Josh Jacobs and Derrick Henry. In the history of the league,

(15:22):
back has gone over three hundred carries in the season
two hundred and thirty one times, but only ten of
those occurred since Zeke, Elliott and Henry accounted for five
of those guys. I mean, look at Tennessee's offense. I
mean the style of offense. I mean, wouldn't you I
would run of forty times if his body could handle it,

(15:43):
you know what I mean? To be fair, his body
can handle it. I think the problem is, m Rob,
they don't have enough explosive please, and it's almost like
unfair to Derrick Henry to ask that much of them.
But a part of this has been the increase in
the passing game. Once again, go back and check out
our episode about the evolution of offenses, specifically the wide

(16:03):
receiver spot. Since nineteen set, many teams are running ten
percent less and throwing the ball at nearly a fifty
seven percent clip in. Rushing touchdowns have also significantly decreased,
which means passing touchdowns have increased. We're well over two
times it's likely to see a throwing touchdown than a
rushing touchdown. And Rob, how much of this is situational football?

(16:28):
Running backs coming out of the backfield on maybe third
down instead of like putting their head down, just kind
of running with the football. Like, is it the running
back that's just not necessarily that bell cow or is
it the skill sets just different for some of these dudes.
I think it's just the skill sets are just different.
For a lot of these guys, I think, oh, this
is this is heavy because I think it starts on

(16:49):
the lower levels and it develops a psychology and the
player and then the guys that are coaching these players
have to respond to. Let me give you an example, like, um,
you know, I helped some coaches in college. I hope
some universities with managing some of the things that they
managed right. And what will happen is you'll have a
recruit that wants to come to your school, or you

(17:13):
have a recruit that you promised a certain amount of
playing time for and you know, you have a guy
who maybe one of the tops in the country, and
you have to get this kid playing time. So you
figure out different unique situations or game planning opportunities to
put this kid in the game. I was one of
those kids at Penn State, meaning, um, yeah, I told

(17:35):
Coach Paternal plenty of times I was going to transfer
because I wanted I wanted to play at some point
and I just didn't see many athletes that I thought
we're better than me, and I'm just like, well, can
we figure out a way to get me at the
quarterback position? And so what happened was they started coming
up with the MIC package. They started coming up with
certain things, and I developed a certain skills set in

(17:56):
certain packages and things like that. And what happened was
when North Turner, when I was at the San Francisco
for the nine is my rookie year, knowing that knowledge,
it carried over and I became a third down back
for this everything before the nine Is. And it wasn't
that I was better at third down than Frank Gore
all the time, because he he took a lot of
the third downs and he was the bell cow type
of a back, But at the end of the day,

(18:17):
whenever he needed a break, I was the first guy
that going to third down, maybe not some of the
other guys that we had on the team that maybe
didn't have that background or skill set being in third down,
having the third down eyes, always looking for blitchers from
the second level, understanding safeties that come from deep, being
able to chip your way out all those things. That's
a that's a special skill set that again, unless you

(18:39):
are a certain type of back, Yeah, you're just not
gonna always be able to have all of these skills
or whatever, just because you're just not gonna be always
required to do it. So I do think it's a
little bit of something that starts on the lower levels
that develops the psychology and the kid and coaches are
just doing what they have to do to be more
explosive and put points on the board and obviously saved

(19:00):
their jobs. So I think that's why you're seeing so
many different types of guys play and run football, and
generational backs are just hard to find. Adrian Peterson, Marshawn Lynch,
guys like that, sa Kwan Barkley with those types of
skill sets. They're not they don't grow on trees. They're
not just you know, just like those franchise types of quarterbacks.

(19:21):
I tell all of our listeners and people that watch football,
just watch se Kwon Barkley. The fact that he might
get the ball seven times in a row and still
have you still be able to run super fast in
full speed and things like that. That's part of his
superpower and what makes them a generational back. It's interesting
I'm looking at some of these numbers here and as
you're describing some of the the running backs who just

(19:44):
get it done in a big way. I I talked
to Austin Ekeler before the season started. And I actually
don't have the numbers in front of me, but the
point is I think he was leading. I think he
had like the most rushing touchdowns in the NFL, and
it was tied with Jonathan Taylor. And I had asked
him with it, and don't quote me on the exact
numbers here, but he had said, Hey, I don't do

(20:05):
what Jonathan Taylor does. He goes, get me out in space,
I'll figure it out. He goes, Jonathan Taylor is gonna
run over you. And I think it speaks to what
you're describing some of the skill sets for some of
these guys. There's different ways that they can go and produce.
Are you noticing because you do a tome with youth football,
are you making sure that some of your younger players,
or even the college guys, the high school kids that

(20:26):
you're with that want to be running backs, are more
aware of past catching ability and how paramount that's going
to be as we get closer to a passing game. Absolutely. Absolutely.
And actually, and I mentioned his name a little bit earlier,
Tyreek Hill. To me, it's how Rich Hill is the
personification of running back wide receiver coming together to form

(20:51):
this nice little joke of energy and ball of electricity,
you know what I'm saying, Like for real, he's really
a wing back in the old wing t offense. That's
what Tyreek Hill is and what I'm seeing on the
youth level, in the high school level, a lot of
while received was are starting to see that skill set
and work on their speed there. They want to be
like that Tyreek Hill. And what makes to me, what

(21:14):
makes him scary is the ability to break tackles. What
makes running backs scary is your ability to break tackles
and then go eighty right. And so you look at
the San Francisco for the Niners right now, right they
have Christian McCaffrey. They just got him, and yes, um,
what you'll see is him and Deebo Samuel in the

(21:36):
game at the same time. You'll see Deebo Samuel in
the slot push the McCaffrey in the backfield, and you'll
see them switch up, sometimes as a shift. Sometimes they
just break the huddle switch with Deebo Samuel in the
backfield and Christian McCaffrey in the slot. And Kyle Shanahan's
mind and in a play caller's mind, it really didn't
matter which one of those guys get the ball, whether

(21:57):
it's handing the football, are just throwing it to him.
You just want to get a guy who can break tackles,
who has great contact ballots and a physical fight to
bring down. You just want to put the ball in
his hands, whether it's in space where there's running the
football at the running back position. And yes, I think
we're we're morphing into that world where running backs, while receivers,

(22:20):
all of those things are starting to kind of be
the same guy, so to speak. I still think it's
gonna always be that role for that guy to dot
that's gonna, you know, get those dirty two or three
yards because I don't think a guy like a Deebo
Samuel or Tyreek Hill can line up in the eye
on a consistent basis right and get a fourth and one,
you know, third and four things like that unless a

(22:42):
scheme to be that. So I do think it's still
gonna be that for running back. But yeah, with the
way that offenses are evolving and things are just again
being more explosive and the balls around the quarterback, the
quarterback is gonna have to be able to put the
ball in these again, these wing back type of guys positions.
And again when I say wing back, it's a running
back that's has speed and can line up on the

(23:04):
outside as why receiver. To me, they're starting to be synonymous.
You know, as I'm listening to it reminds me of
a conversation we had about defensive players and encourage people
to check or listen to that podcast episode because it
is kind of like these freakazoid guys who are super long,
super athletic. I don't want to call it positionless football
on the defensive side, but it almost is what you're describing.

(23:26):
For I don't know how else to characterize it better
than that, it almost feels like positionless football for some
of these players. Is where you think it goes. Yes,
it's it's coming because again, the defense is matching up
to what they're being presented with from an offensive standpoint,
And and I know it was earlier in the season,
and I may have to check out some of the staff,
but I do think there's gonna be a resurgence of

(23:48):
the run game because as the defenders are starting to
adjust from a body standpoint, right and get small, get
a little smaller and leaner why not just run isso
and leads and just run right at them. It's it's
not pretty football, but it does get the job done.
All right. The running back conversation will continue here and
more specifically, and and I think Gen xers and older

(24:11):
millennials you know what I'm talking about. You know when
did he I guess he was puffy at that point
said it's all about the Benjamin's. They're not getting the
Benjamin's that they used to get. Will explain why that is.
That's coming up next on the NFL Explained podcast. Welcome
back to the NFL Explained Podcast. We're talking about the

(24:33):
decline of the running backs, and you know it's the
time of the show, right, you know what I'm talk
about the d M S Man here we go. You
know what's kind of crazy about it. I think people
started on our team getting annoyed that I was doing it,
and then they started to realize people have been d
M and me and I keep throwing out questions and

(24:53):
everyone's like, oh okay, now it's a thing. So if
you have a question, don't know who to ask, you
know who that person is. You can slide it to
the d M S and Ron's planning, not mine. So
if have some questions, I promise at some point where
actually our our team, and our team needs so much
love and they deserve a lot of love because Lord knows,
and Rob, you and I couldn't do the show without him.

(25:14):
But their work in diligently that we're compiling all the questions,
We've got another mail bag episode. Some of the questions
were so damn good that we're making full episodes out
of them. So there's still a lot to come. Send
us a message on social media that said, you know,
it's my favorite subject. It makes me sounds really superficial,
but I don't even care. It's money, man, It's it's

(25:35):
it is man. It's what makes the world go round,
no doubt, no doubt. I'm still a renter. So I'm
trying to get as many of those Benjamin's as I can.
You know what I'm saying, So cal real estate is
no joke, man, If money talks, and that is the case,
because m Rob said it is, and so do I.
I think it's important stick a look at some of

(25:55):
the dollar figures that running backs are getting. If you
look at the average top five players at every position
excluding sorry, I'm rob fullbacks, kickers, punters, and long snappers. Know,
running back is the second lowest paid position. That is
wild to me, Centers, centers, centers. So I actually think

(26:16):
this is kind of messed up, right, Like centers are. Yeah,
your facial expression says it all. They're like I get
you know, quarterbacks getting all the money that they are.
You know, we talked about wide receivers getting paid. Running
Backs are absolutely abused on the football field, right The
longevity of that position is so hard. But what do
you make of that? And by the way, so center
at thirteen point two million, running back fourteen point two,

(26:37):
tight en fourteen point nine, guards sixteen point five, and
linebacker seventeen million, that's your bottom five. I mean, okay,
so guard, I'm looking at the offensive line product which
you just say to guard makes almost three and a
half million more on average than the center. At least
the centers I've come in contact with, yams and the

(26:58):
centers that I've had experience with in my life, they're
smarter than the quarterback. More often times they're smarter than
the quarterback. Have we seen probably the number one offensive
line in football right now? The Philadelphia Eagles and who's there?
Who are they led by? They led by their center
and Jason Kelsey, he pulls, he does everything. That number

(27:19):
was shocking to me, even though I should have known it,
but it was shocking to me. But yeah, um, here's
the deal. Backs, I get it. They pay us, and
then it seems like either our production goes down or
your generational guy like Adrian Peter central on Marshawn let
you continues to get bigger contracts. I get it, because, Yams,
I'm telling you, most running backs have been playing running

(27:42):
back their entire life. And hear me out here, man,
so my entire life, I've had eleven guys on the
other side of the line of scrimmage hitting me or
trying to hit me for free. Are free? Okay? And
I finally got an opportunity to break the bag. Okay,
I finally get an opportunity to break the back. I

(28:04):
think it's human nature for most people to just exhale,
and I think that's what you see with most backs.
I think they run for the money, right, and then
when they look in their bank account and they see
the zeros, it's hard to continue to take that punishment
over sustained period of time. Again, unless you're a generational guy,

(28:26):
unless you're doing it for other reasons, it's hard to
do that. And I think, just subconsciously, I think that's
why play usually slacks off after the running back gets paid. Okay,
So it doesn't make sense then that GM's are paying
them a little bit less because there's the business side
of it, right, I guess. So it's I guess the
business side of it. I guess. For me, just knowing
and seeing a lot of the backs on our league,

(28:48):
I just think we got a lot of talented guys. Man,
I just think we got a lot of diverse and
talented guys in our league. Just that sometimes scheme doesn't
always show off their talents all all the way. But
you are. You are a scheme guy though generally, and
like that sometimes can be a recipe for success. We've
seen over the decades certain running backs have a lot

(29:09):
of success in one type of offense, go to another
team and they don't have nearly the same type of productions.
I think that's a Quarterbacks do that too, and they
still get paid them money even when we I mean
Russell's they were gonna be in Denver next year and
again scheme change may not have been the best thing

(29:32):
for him. Do you think you said just like I
see it? That's all. But but I'm just saying for
other positions, scheme don't Oh you know what I'm saying
to scheme that that scheme narrative been no always used
to not pay them. I don't know why it's always

(29:53):
used with the running back position. Okay, that makes me
think about quarterbacks. And by the way, we did an
episode on this check that out. Have I ever promoted
more of our other previous shows in a show but
for I'm getting a lot of like head non nos,
but their loving it, so uh, check out some of
those episodes and if they'll explain podcast. Um. I started

(30:14):
thinking about the quarterback position, specifically quarterbacks who are mobile enough, right,
so Lamar Jackson certainly comes to mind. I think the
Ravens are a good sort of test case here. The Ravens.
We think about them is run first, clearly. I'm looking
at some of the numbers here. Top ten rushing teams
all time in the Super Bowl era Number one, twenty
nineteen Baltimore Ravens, who rushed for three thousand, two hundred

(30:36):
nineties six yards They're also number four on the list,
this Ravens team, with seven teams being from the nineteen
seventies and one being from the nineteen eighties. Like this
is wild to me. Those Ravens squads. By the way
that I just made reference to the nineteen ones, how
about fourteen and two and eleven and five. Those were
their records here the ground and pound. Yeah, there's still

(30:58):
something to be said there. And I'll take it even
a step further. M Rob. You might think it's one dimensional,
it's only the run game. How about this though that
didn't even match up. The total yardage only accounted for
fifty of their total offense, So we are still talking
about a little bit of a balanced team here. Can't
talk about those Ravens without mentioning, Yes, of course Lamar
and his running ability over twelve hundred yards on that

(31:20):
twenty nineteen team. Over the course of fifteen years, the
amount of design runs for quarterbacks has increased more than
one and a half times, from one thousand, four hundred
eighty two in two thousand six to over two hundred
one yardage gained by quarterbacks on the ground. That numbers
increased twofold just about fifty three hundred yards to over

(31:42):
ten thousand yards in that same exact span. So can
the quarterback in your mind, m rob And I know
I'm looking at like a Bill's helmet in the background,
So you know, orm this one dude that I'm thinking about. Yeah,
uh in Josh Allen. But can those running quarterbacks can
they make up for some of the deficiencies that you're
seeing in terms of running backs who aren't producing at

(32:02):
a super high level. Absolutely, those quarterbacks also make up
for bad coaching. But I'll say this. You know how
I classified movement quarterbacks, right. You have runners with passing ability.
Those are Lamar Jackson's. Those are the Jalen Hurts. That
was who Michael Robinson was and I'm still waiting for
one of those guys to win a Super Bowl again.

(32:25):
Runners with passing ability, now, you have passers with movement ability.
Those are the Russell Wilson's. Those the Steve Young's of
the world like that. You see what I'm saying, Patrick
Mahomes guys like that, even even Josh Allen, Because I
don't think Josh Allen's a runner. I think he has
a He's big, strong, and he has the ability to
run you over. Is that like Cam Newton? Yes, like

(32:47):
Cam new To me, Cam Newton was a runner and
he ran like that, right, he ran powerful. He ran
by lowering his shoulder, and lowering that shoulder got his
a c joint or got his shoulder to a point
where he's not throwing the football where you want it.
I think that's why you're gonna see um. You know,
I think Jayalen Hurts got nicked up. We could saw
a goal or whatever whatever. And they're being cautious about

(33:09):
the Philadelphia Eagles because he's a runner, and when you
have a runner at the quarterback position, it can affect
the throwing. I'm good with my quarterback being a runner.
I still have to be proven, right, I still gotta
see one of those guys when win a Super Bowl.
But I'm good with my quarterback being a runner as
long as he's a smart runner, as long as we

(33:30):
can limit the designated call quarterback runs where he actually
has to take a bunch of punishment. If we can
call a quarterback run, I'm calling a sweep where he
can kind of get out of bounds and protect him
from himself. So yeah, the running quarterback is here to stay.
The running offense for a quarterback is here to stay.
But we gotta see these guys win the Super Bowl

(33:52):
before I think we can call it super legitimate and look,
it might happen. It might be a Philadelphia Eagles team
at Jalen Hurtson together on the short list of teams
that could go and do it all right, Welcome back
to the NFL Explained podcasts. Mike Yam and Rob with
you and Rob, you told me earlier you're a big

(34:13):
scheme guy. I started thinking about players who are versatile enough.
Deebo Samuel certainly comes to my Tyreek Hill. You mentioned
jet sweeps. Sometimes we're seeing these wide outs and how
they're used. I think the best example is Debo because
there's almost been a concerted effort to have him at
times in that backfield and lineup as a running back.
I think with Tyreek gets more of emotion thing. Sometimes

(34:35):
you'll even see a tight end be in those situations
as well. Just from a number standpoint, here in the
two thousand season, we actually saw wide outs carry the
ball two hundred and fifteen times, and that numbers actually
increased to four hundred and thirty three one. Like I
I saw that number and I did a double take
at it. The yardage for wide receivers as runners have

(34:57):
gone from basically fourteen hundreds to almost twenty seven hundred.
That's almost two times the same amount there, So why
dots huge weapons? We did that episode about a ution
to the wide receiver spot. I mentioned position list football
and Rob ten years from now, twenty years from now,
is that what we're gonna be talking about in the NFL,
where you're not really a running back per se, You're
not necessarily a wide receiver. You're just a dude who's

(35:19):
an athlete and you can get out into space and
make things happen. You're an offensive weapon. You're an offensive weapon.
It doesn't matter. You can carry the football, you can
catch you out of backfield. You just guys. I remember
when I first started getting really into the National Football League,
my rookie year and learning defenses and learning some of
these blitz packages, and I remember our offensive coordinator, I
think it was no Alterno at the time, he said,

(35:41):
I know this guy's a got a fifty number, but
his body type, at some point he's gonna run to
the safety. Forget about their numbers. They're all excess when
he blitzes he's four weeks forget that he is wearing
a cornerbacks number. They don't matter. They're all excess. And
I think what's happening is or what's coming to the

(36:04):
National Football League defenses are now I'm gonna start to
look at offenses and say the exact same thing. Okay,
you got the five guys blocking, and you got the quarterback.
Everybody else or exits, it doesn't matter. And now you're
starting to talk about stem and things like that. You
see what I'm saying and defend concepts not necessarily individual players. Yes, Yams,

(36:25):
I think it's coming. And wait until we get to
the platoon system at quarterback. Josh Allen even said that
on his one on one sitting down with me a
few weeks ago, talking about the platoon system at quarterback.
I do think that is coming based off of the
amount of money those guys are making. You think you're
telling me Josh Allen's gonna step off the field. Hell,
he said, he's not man not someone else might do that.

(36:47):
He was talking about the future. He was like, yeah,
maybe the future after I'm you know, from here, maybe
they're bringing two guys to kind of do what I do.
Can you imagine MCDA saying, hey, Josh, like you said,
be like, hell though, I'm not coming off, that's just
stocking out. That has me thinking here about winning the
Super Bowl, winning the Chef. I look and maybe I'm
saving the best for the last year, and maybe we

(37:08):
shouldn't have stacked the podcast this wik But I saw
some of these numbers and I'm like, you gotta be
kidding me. This is wild. I just want to put
some of this stuff in context for some of our
listeners here, because I think about traditional football, right, it's
it's run the ball and play defense, and that's what's
gonna win. I don't know if you can make that
case anymore that that's how things are moving. We took

(37:29):
a look at the last ten Super Bowl champions. Leading
Russia on those teams finished on average eighteen one eight
eighteenth in the league in yards. Some of the notables
on the list chiefs leading Russia in twenty nineteen Dammian Williams,
dude finish thirty nine in yards. But see, okay, you're
saying I get I get what you're saying, But isn't

(37:52):
that kind of that's kind of leading right, because I
would like to see his yards per rush and his
impact in the playoffs that year, because he was awesome
in the playoffs that year. But when you talk about
a whole Kansas City office, they don't use running best
like that exactly. I don't disagree with you, but it
speaks to how you can still win at times or

(38:16):
even get to the super Bowl and not half your
We're breaking tradition is really what I'm what I'm trying
to say here, you don't need the dude who's like,
you know, the guy who's going to run for two
thousand yards. I mean, it's nice, but like those days,
you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, huge totals
and now you get to a thousand, you're feeling really
good about yourself and you're pumping up your chest here.

(38:36):
But I'll give you some other examples here Patriots leading rusher,
and I know that this sort of speaks to what
you're describing that super Bowl team, Jonas Gray. What finished
top running back on a Super Bowl team in the
last ten years was mars Shawn Lynch, who finished sixth
in yards. So once again and Yams and I can

(39:02):
tell you there were three maybe four games. Well, he said,
I don't want to play the fourth court. I already
got a hunt of yards. I want Robert Turbin to
get some money. That's what he was saying. I don't
even want it. I don't even want to do it.
Like he was in the vein of like Chuck Munsey man,
like this is just a just a tough dude, right,
you know what I'm saying, chared about everybody, all those things. Man,

(39:24):
it's just I don't know what's a joy to be
around beast mode. And you know, running backs have a
certain attitude to all of them, all of them yams.
Now that's changing because again you're seeing the position characteristics change.
But most times they're walking around slow, but they will
run fast and run you over. Know what I'm saying.
That's usually how they are. Okay, I love this because

(39:46):
I don't think you'll get this on any other podcast.
I think position groups have different reputations of how they are.
I've never thought about the reputation for a running back
in general, so can you. And look, this is a
complete generalization here, but yeah, throw out the castle wide
net for me, yams, yams general real least speaking again,

(40:06):
I've been we talked all podcasts. It's running backs. Eleven guys.
When I get the football at six five or six
behind the line of scrimmage, eleven guys are coming after me. Right,
So when I'm not working, when I'm not getting hit
by all of these guys, and I'm not getting scarred
up and scratched. Every shower where you take after a
game is like a bunch of them paper cuts all

(40:27):
over your body, you know what I'm saying. Like when
you when you just chilling in everyday life. Yeah, man,
you walk as slow, You're taking your time. You observe me,
You're just like, oh, it feels good not to have
bodies around me. I mean honestly, and I think it's
a subconscious thing. But all the guys I've been around
seeing to kind of be that way hanging around Shady

(40:47):
McCoy like he's a jitterbug as far as running the
football on the field, and he talked, you know what
I'm saying, got a lot of energy there, But what
are you walking around hanging out? Man? Yeah, it's a
little bit slow moving a getting broad strokes were speaking. Obviously,
there's some there's some you know, individualistic things about it,
but a broad stroke speaking, there's some general characteristics about
every position group. It makes sense to me. Um, look,

(41:10):
before we wrap things up here, I got two things
for you. One a number for you. Last three Super
Bowl winners, the Rams, the Bucks, the Chiefs have finished
tied for and twenty three, respectively in rushing yards. So
that's one. That's the fact which leads me to number two. Here,
are we going to continue to talk about the running
back spot being a dying breed? I'll let you put

(41:34):
a bow on this conversation, Yes, just because I don't
know if the English language has the words that we
should be using. I don't want to say dying and
stuff like that of running back position. But it is changing.
It's evolving, Um, football, the game of football is evolving.
Yeahs Earlier this year I did the World Cup final
for flag football. That's the thing. You loved him saying, yeah,

(41:56):
it was awesome, Like it was awesome, right, you know
what I mean? Totally different skill sets gotta come into play.
We're talking about getting that in the Olympics. So football
is evolving and our tackle football version of it, and
our tackle football is evolving as well as offenses continue
to evolve. You're good, Yes, you're going to see the
running back position change. Now. To me, there's gonna always

(42:19):
be a room for a generational back. And if you've
got a generational back who has the long speed to
go a d he has hands, short arms. That's a
characteristic of some running backs. Short arms because they can
hold a football sip when they fall and they put
that arm out to brace themselves. It's not a lot
of space for the fumble to happen. That's a little
technical for you guys, but it's the truth. If you

(42:40):
get one of those guys, you gotta take them. You
gotta put them in the dot behind the quarterback, and
you gotta hand him to football and say come tackle him.
That's just the way it is. I only feel bad
for those guys because I know when they get into
the National Football League, unless you have the right mentality
of you know, up top up in your head. Because
I talked to the Asian Peterson's in the Marshawn Lynches,
your play will slip it. Just will you just hope

(43:03):
that the right generational back of whoever that may be
you the next time we see him. I think Sae
Kwon Barkley is our next one. I think Tom will
continue to tell that. But whoever, I think it will
always be space for the generational back. Okay, if you're
gonna tell our listeners, because what I've noticed from some
of the d ms that we're getting is a lot
of new fans, a lot of fans who maybe are

(43:23):
are just getting exposed to the NFL. If you had
to give advice and said, hey, go on YouTube and
watch this one running back, the best dude I've ever
seen run? Who's that guy? That's a good one, because
they all got a little little different, you know what
I'm saying, and all a little different, and um, I
look at um Jim Brown. I think Jim Brown could

(43:44):
have played in any error. I know when you watch
the highlights of Jim Brown, you're looking like he won't
playing against anybody. Oh my goodness. But I believe he's
one of those guys that obviously were we lift weights
and our monorn medicine whatever. If he was coming along
that track, he would have been the same type of guy.
I would tell young people watch Adrian Peterson, watch his

(44:05):
desire once he gets the football. I don't I just
don't know if there's been a guy wired like that,
I need you to watch Beast Mode. Obviously, Um, he's
still a relevant guy. Earl Campbell. Um. Just the physicality
of the way that he ran the football. I don't
necessarily recommend you trying to run the football like Earl Campbell,
but what I'm saying is just the physicality and the

(44:25):
confidence running towards the line of scrimmage. And my all
time favorite because that's just the error I grew up
in Barry Sanders. People didn't I didn't look at Barry
Sanders as being this powerful guy. He was a jitterbug.
He you know, you got all these highlight runs and
making people miss. But the guy'sties are like thirty inch stisman.

(44:46):
Like if you ever stood next to Barry, which I've
had the opportunity to do, he's not a small Guy's short,
but he's not a small guy. He ran with power
at times. You watch those facts and I think you'll
get a really, really, really good understanding of what a
generational back when an all time running back looks like
oh and for eyes from for vision, look a Frank Gore.

(45:06):
That's not a selfish plug because I blocked for him.
But I think he's had the best eyes of any
running back in all the football. I'm surprised he didn't
bring up that. Ma Well. I think that's part of it.
And I don't want to take anything from Ny because
the player as long as he played and to do
what he had to do. Obviously it takes a lot.
But I played with Larry Allen, Yams and Larry Allen.

(45:26):
He drove around in a bentley. He spent there in sunflowers.
He's on the floor, rolled around the bent league, he
spent the dip and then when I asked him for
a ride home one time, he laughed and said be careful.
When I stepped in there, it crunched. Oh my god, Okay,
that's Larry Allen. I watched we went up to Seattle

(45:48):
in two thousand and six. I watched Frank Gold run
for almost two hundred yards and all we did was
run one play power Larry's pulling. Larry wipes out in
an entire side of a defense. And this was like
second to the last year of him retiring. That was
Larry Allen. They had a couple other guys on that
Dallas Cowboy offense of Lionie Newton and some other guy.

(46:11):
So it's hard for me knowing that that guy was
right there in his prime. He used to tell me
stories about, you know, some things in the street he
used to do, and he was what I mean, Larry
all time great. So to know that that those types
of guys were blocking for image is just hard for
me to give him all the love. But I don't

(46:31):
want to take anything away from He's the all time
leading rush and all of NFL history. You can't do
that without being a hard worker. You can't do that
without having some skill. No, I'm with you. That's why
I was just kind of curious when you you didn't
say his name, but it makes sense and why you
decided to go down that path. I always say this
at the end of these Maybe I don't always say it,
but I do mean that man. Always great to work

(46:51):
with you dude, Always have a blast. Always appreciate you
guys checking us out on this podcast. You can fire
off the DFS at Mike underscore ya at Real Mike, Rob.
Don't send him to d M. You want respond, you
could just follow Rob. I promise I will get back
to you as and and we'll continue to compile a
lot of these questions that you have always appreciate you

(47:11):
guys listening once again the decline of the running back.
You be the judge. Is it happening or is it not?
Hopefully we explained it