April 13, 2022 • 46 mins
Host Andrea Kremer takes us back to 1989 for Part Two of NFL Films Steve Sabol interviewing Al Davis. The Raiders owner discussed his childhood and his love of sports despite initially not having a television. Davis says following sports wasn't a way of life for him, it was his life. Sabol explores Davis always being a leader and the rare times that he needed to step away from football, including his wife Carol's illness and amazing recovery in 1979. Back to football, Al explains his intuition and foresight with players, execs and the direction of the game. The Raiders had their own rules and regulations, but the 'Commitment to Excellence' and the goal to win always came first. We hear thoughts on John Madden and the direction of the NFL, before closing with Davis defining what he hopes his legacy in the NFL will be.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to NFL Films
Tales from the Vault. I'm your host, Hall of Fame
journalist Andrea Kramer. I actually started my TV career at
NFL Films. And when you work there, you learn that
(00:25):
one of Steve Sable's favorite sayings was, and I quote,
tell me a fact and i'll learn. Tell me a
truth and I'll believe. But tell me a story and
it will live in my heart forever. So I'd like
to start off by telling you a little story about
my career at NFL Films. I was this young producer
(00:45):
and it's a Saturday night and I went into the vault,
and in those days, the vault consisted of cans of film.
So I got up on a ladder to probably reach
for the nineties Championship game. And I'm teetering on this
ladder and all I'm thinking of is, oh, my gosh,
don't let me all off the ladder and be found
(01:06):
as road kill on a Monday morning by somebody who's
coming in here. But you know what, on a Saturday
night at ten pm, there was only one other light
on in the building, and that light was my mentor
and boss, Steve Sable. So it is very special to
me that I get to go back into that vault
(01:26):
to bring you some of the greatest interviews between Steve
Sable and some of the greatest figures in NFL history.
Today we head back to for part two of Steve's
fascinating conversation with the late owner of the Raiders, Al Davis. Yeah,
(01:57):
in part one of this interview, and folks, if you
haven't heard it, I would strongly suggest you go back
and listen to it. We hurt. Steve and Al talk
mostly about Al Davis's favorite subject, Raiders football. It was
truly a clinic in team building, what culture really means,
coaching and leadership. But today's conversation starts on a personal level,
(02:21):
as Steven al get into Davis's childhood and his dreams
of becoming an owner of an NFL team one day.
But it's much more than that. For a man who
was described as cunning and devious and actually thought those
were pretty good compliments, you are about to hear a
side of Al Davis you might never have imagined existed.
(02:43):
No hyperbole here. What you're going to hear when he
talks about his wife Carol and the medical travails that
she went through, is absolutely extraordinary. The detail with which
he describes what he went through, what she went through,
and how he was there, how he left football for
really the first time in his life for something bigger
(03:07):
is absolutely amongst the most meaningful things you will here
on this podcast. So now let's go to the vault
for part two of Steve Sable and Al Davis. I
want to go back to growing up right from the beginning,
that's what you wanted to mean, because that's such a
great story. I mean, how many people and everyone have
the dream and how many other how many people that
(03:29):
have a dream get to accomplish it the way you have,
so that makes it grow unique right from the beginning.
But what about your your childhood when you're growing up?
I mean, you have so many strong feelings and so
many opinions. It was that shape when you were a kid,
and how was it? I mean, what was your childhood
like to to to to cultivate these this emotion and
the theories that you're well. I came to Brooklyn, New
(03:52):
York from Massachusetts when I was about five years old.
And uh, there's no question growing up there. Being on
the streets led me to meet many diverse people and
grow up amongst them. And uh, I think that when
I look back, I always lead. I always love sports.
(04:12):
We didn't have television in the mid thirties and early forties,
although my family was one of the first to get
it in the early forties. And uh uh, I can
vividly remember the seven or eight newspapers that were in
New York City. I used to devour them, read them
every day, to read about the Yankees, read about the Dodgers.
(04:34):
Pro football was just in its infancy. It was just
s thoughting to grow. But I love football, and I
love basketball and baseball. Quite frankly, I love them all.
And I just devoured everything about him and started to
shape and watch different people and the creativity and watch
players and started the form in my mind. Certain uh
(04:54):
they had a good certain prejudices about players. Uh uh.
And to to to whoever's credit it is my parents.
God always gave me the privilege of going out and
free expression, allowing me to do what I wanted to do,
living in the park, living in your high school athletic fields,
(05:17):
and just just doing it day and night and just
living it, and and it became a way of life
to me. It wasn't just a part of my life,
it was a way of life. And I just love
it when kids used to choose up when you were
a little Were you one of the first chosen, were
the less well, I'd like to think I was one
of the guys choosing. I'm picking. I know I was
(05:44):
one of the guys choosing. I was an organize I
could organize, I I could I could lead when it
when it came to that, I could lead. And uh
uh you know, I've always kept in contact, even even
from my public school, with some of my classmates, and
just recently, uh, one of the girls I went to
public school with became the first woman publisher of a
(06:07):
major publishing concern, and we would renew old friendships and
she would talk to the girls here and she would
tell him even when I was a kid, I was
the one who led. And then junior high school, then
high school. You know, my high school, Erasmus Hall. Uh.
We had a big reunion here by people, and to
(06:28):
Erasmus is credit. Some of the greatest people in America today,
especially in sports, came from Erasmus resmus Hall High School.
We had six at one time, UH doing outstanding things
in professional sports, UH in the seventies and the eighties.
And my high school teammate that was something that that
(06:48):
kind of destroyed me for a while because life and
death are are so big with me health and he
died on the mound. He was the pitching coach of
the Dodgers. We played together at Don McMahon, the great
relief pitcher, and it was just two years ago that
he died on the mound as a pitching coach for
the die just And those are things that stopping and
make you think, and UH realized that there is another
(07:11):
part of life other than just football and winning, and
that's life for death and sickness and and maybe maybe
that's the only place I feel that I haven't been
able to contribute enough. I've always liked to think that
I could dominate my environment, and I'm trying and and
that's something I like to try and dominate. ID like
to try and contribute to because I'm not talking from
(07:32):
a doctor standpoint. I'm not talking from a nurse's standpoint.
And by the way, my experience with nurses are just
super they they're they're they're unheralded. Uh, they should be
standing out winning uh Nurse of the Year, this kind
of you know, player of the year. They should be
getting bonuses for making it to Hawaii to the Pro Bowl.
(07:53):
But in any event, I think that so many sick
people in families who have sick people need help as
far as management of how you're gonna handle sickness, crisis
management of sickness, it would just be just be great.
But that's getting away from what we're talking of. Leads
into what we wanted to talk about with your with
your experience with Carol and how did that if you
(08:16):
could go over that about what happened and how you
had to cope with it, and also that the feelings
that were going on inside you when when she was
in the hospital. Yeah, you mean my wife, Carol, you
know when we got married. Uh joking. I used to
tell a listen, the only thing that's ever gonna take
me away from football is life or death. I'm just
telling you that. And I guess she decided to put
(08:38):
me to the test because in ninety nine, it was October.
We were getting ready to leave on a Friday to
play the jets in New York and the Thursday night
she went into a comma. She was in a coma
fourteen days. Every top doctor and neurologist that I had
(08:59):
met told me that she would be a vegetable and
maybe never even living if she did as a sayoud
be a vegetable. And uh, you know, we had all
the plugs and here and all of that, and they
were talking about pulling plugs and things like that, and Uh,
no big deal, because I would do this for any friend.
I think it's based on faith, love and whatever else
(09:19):
you want to call it. Uh. I gave a football,
moved into the hospital. They let me, and I moved
in on the same floor with her and fought that
thing through. And there was no way that I was
just gonna let a lie there. I was talking to
people in Switzerland, anywhere in the world that I could
get help with something that might be different. I was
(09:41):
gonna try it, and I was just not going to
accept that this was a fact. And uh, I would
try different doctors, different neurologists. They were all super they
were all trying to help me and comfort me. I'll
never forget one said to me. I had seen her
one night, about after the eighth day, in the middle
of the night, I thought I had contact with it.
We all think these things. I guess when when when
(10:02):
when they're in Tacoma. And I told him about it,
and he said to me, Al we all see things
that we want to see at this type of period.
And I said, no, no, I saw it. And and
and he he wouldn't, he wouldn't accept it. And he
thought I was kind of, you know, making up things,
which is which is understandable. But anyhow, thank god, after
(10:25):
about fourteen days, uh, she awakened and after a total rehabilitation,
it took about six months to a year. We had
to teach you how to eat again, how to put
our socks on, how to do all those things. Uh.
She needed therapy work, she needed the memory work. But
thank god, today she's she's perfect. I think you can
(10:46):
hear the intensity in al Davis's voice, but you should
see his face just for calling this. The look on
his face is just it's full of pain. Because for
those of us who knew al Davis, even tangentially, you
understood that this man had only one fear in life,
(11:06):
the one thing he couldn't control, and that was death.
So a little bit more background on the story about
Al's wife, Carol. In October of nineteen nine, she suffered
a massive heart attack a subsequent stroke, and spent twenty
three days in a coma on a ventilator in an
Oakland hospital, regaining consciousness only occasionally by her side all
(11:29):
that time. Occupying the next bed was her husband, who
left the Oakland Raiders during that entire ordeal and talked
into his wife's ear for hours on end, encouraging her
even though she couldn't respond, And then one day she
woke up. This might have been Davis's greatest coaching job ever.
(11:51):
To quote Carol Davis's doctor, It's a miracle, no question
about it. I've never seen anyone that's sick makes such
a recovery. Well, you know what, not anyone had Al
Davis by their side. What did you do you want
in there? What? What? What was exactly what you were
doing at your bed, at her bedside, and what were
(12:11):
you saying? And your motivation behind that? Well, well, I
want to say, first the doctors, the nurses that little hospital,
merrit Hospital, Oakland, California, were just fantastic. I'll never forget him.
And from time to time, I'm in contact with him
because they actually helped save her life. And uh, it
(12:34):
was my objective after a period of days when the
feeling was that there was no hope, that this was
a fatal company, that I could not leave her. She
was my friend, my wife. I could not leave her
line there and accept that. I just just couldn't believe it.
As little I knew about medicine, so I was determined
(12:56):
to try and dominate that situation, at least from the
management of it, procuring all the information I could from
all over the world. And of course I have more
means than other people, so I can do these things.
And I and I must admit another thing that I
had to support of the entire country, certainly pro football,
the media, the television people. I can remember games on
(13:20):
in her room while she was in a coma. The
game was on and they would be talking about her,
and I would try to talk to her and tell her, baby,
they're talking about you. Now, you've got to get up.
And every night would spend hours with her, talking to
with the hope that maybe I could do something with
the idea that you'll leave no stone unturned, and uh,
(13:42):
you know, God was good to us and brought her
back and gave her back and now she's doing great.
And now it's our turn from time to time to
tray and make a contribution to the lives of others,
or at least give him the hope that coma is
not over at the end of ten days of fifteen,
even that people do wake up, they do live a
(14:02):
normal life, or at least uh try everything possible to
do it. I don't think anything or anyone else would
have taken Al Davis away from football, but it illustrates
the love and loyalty he had for his wife, two
qualities that are actually hallmarks of Davis's life. When Davis
(14:23):
passed away, in controlling interest of the Raiders, passed to
his wife, Carol and son Mark. Carol still lives in California,
but she commutes to Las Vegas to attend games and
is still hailed as the first Lady of Raiders football.
She even lit the ceremonial Al Davis torch prior to
(14:43):
the raiders first home game in Las Vegas, and Mark
Davis told me it was one of the most meaningful
events of his life. Mother and son remain committed to
as Al Davis loved to call it the greatness of
the Raiders, and in fact they were on hand at
last year's Hall of Fame induction ceremony as Tom Floory's presenter.
(15:05):
When we come back, Alan Steve get into Davis's ability
to see into the future. Stay tuned, Welcome back to
NFL Films Tales from the Vault. As we return to
Football Talk, this upcoming discussion showcases Al Davis the coach,
general manager, tactician. Simply, there have been so few owners
(15:28):
who have the pedigree and knowledge based to wax poetic
on strategy and personnel. But we're not caring for his wife.
Al Davis eight slept and breathed football, and he was
steadfast in his beliefs about how to build a winner,
and it started with being proactive, not reactive. One thing
(15:50):
that keeps coming up about people that talk about you
is your ability to perceive the future, to foretell either
a player's potential or or or or a developing trend
in the game. And what could you elaborate that? What's
that call? And could you could you explain that? Could
you an example that you can give of something that
you've had this that you saw it and then it
(16:12):
actually a specific example of it that sounds pretty good.
Keep talking, no U, I guess I've always referred to
it as gestal. It's a German word means the ability
to perceive into the future something that could happen or
it could develop before it really does. It's ability great
(16:34):
statesmen have they see a situation. Builders they see the
need for parts, so they see the need for certain
type housing long before there is a need for it.
And we have been able through the years to take
football players and move them into other positions where they
become great players, whereas they might not have been great
(16:55):
at the positions they were playing. Uh the ability to
perceive in the future something that should happen and could happen,
and plan for it. And uh So, I don't know
where you're headed directly, but I think this organization has
always been uh positive and before it happens, thinkers as
(17:18):
as to what's going to happen and and being ready
for it and developing players along those lines. Is there
a specific example of a player I think you really
is the best example of all of that, the taking
guy from one position of moving him to another. And
what did you see in that guy that made you
want to shift them to the other physician. Well, you know,
there are so many examples, and I say that with
(17:40):
humility here with the Raiders. But I guess the first
two great ones were taking Billy Cannon, who was the
Hodsman Trophy winner from l s U great player, first
round draft choice of the National Football League and the
American Football League, and and uh Billy played for the
oil As. We traded for him, and we moved him
(18:02):
from half back to tight end. And I felt that
that was the first other than maybe the fellow who
played for the Eagles, Retz Laugh tight end of his time,
who had the speed to go deep, who could put
the pressure on the defense deep, and he was very quick.
He was a very good block up. But he was
a very big touchdown catcher for the Raiders. And at
the same time, I took certainly Todd Christensen. I like
(18:25):
to use the expression he gets annoyed. We took him
off the street. He had been cut by two teams
after being a second round raft choice of the Dallas Cowboys,
had been cut by Dallas and the Johnson When we
got him, I'll let him fool around and full back
for a while and then called him in and said, look,
I'm gonna make you tight end. And I recounted the
story of Billy Cannon to him that I thought he
(18:47):
could be great. I thought he could help dominate the
National Football League for terms of what we wanted to
do with him. And uh uh. To his credit, he
had several years where he caught over rady passes and
was a great contributor to the greatness of the Raiders book.
We've had many play us where one of the few
teams that have taken players who have played offense and
(19:10):
turned them around and made him into defensive players. And uh,
we do it often. If we think it's the thing
to do, we'll do it. I'm a great believer the
rates have in matchups that if there's a great team
in our conference, I better know if the rateers can
match up with that team and be able to play
him and handle the people man for man at skilled
(19:31):
positions defensive line. And here was Hank Stram's great Kansas
City Chiefs teams starting to grow as big as we are,
starting to dominate the American Football League, and their two
tackles were Ernie Ladd and Buck Buchanan and I was
determined that if Buck Buchanan, who was very young, was
going to play ten years at right tackle for the
(19:52):
Kansas City Chiefs, I'd better have a left guard, which
was unheard of to put a guy six five six
six at guard, but I put up show it guard
because I knew I had to handle Buchanan for the
next ten years. Otherwise the Raiders were going to be
in trouble. What about the other thing the Raiders are
known for is that is the troublemakers from other teams,
the Alsados them at two secs to Hendricks, and yet
(20:12):
they all seemed to gravitate towards the Raiders. And when
they come here, every one of them to the mad
says the reason I treated like a man. There's one
thing the organization is focused. Why have you been so
successful with these so called troublemakers and you almost you
almost look for him? I mean to bring these guys
and why why is that? Well? Number one, they may
be troublemakers, but add the next expression that great football players.
(20:35):
And uh, I wasn't doing it based on love or emotion.
I was doing it because I thought they were great
and they could make a contribution to the Raiders. Uh,
Mattuzak just a great football player, just unpap needed confidence.
Uh needed a feeling that you believed in him. Alsado, Uh,
I don't know if Alzado was was such that he
(20:57):
was a troublemaker. Was that everyone thought he was through
and he wasn't through, And uh he was a great contributor.
It's a funny thing. Alsato played for the Raiders in
the year eighty two. Law didn't lyle uh bless him
originally came from Brooklyn, New York, Lawrence, Long Island, and
uh was a high draft choice of the Denver Bronco
(21:20):
as he played there for many years played for Cleveland.
Everyone thought he was through And he only played for
the Raiders in the year eighty two, eight four and
part of eighty five, And yet everyone thinks he's been
a Raider all his life. Now. John Matuzac came to
US in nineteen seventy six and played in two Super
Bowl years for US, two wins and was a great contributor.
(21:41):
And there are so many that that have come to
us with the label of troublemaker that I think it's wrong.
I think that what they have to prove to us
when they come here, is that they can't get along
with us, that we can't get along with them. We
we've had a couple through the years, but not very many.
(22:02):
And I great believe that if you have an environment
that allows people some freedom in a paramilitary situation, but
yet you have a common goal, unity of purpose, commitment,
that that they can do it. And I just believe
in young people. I believe in people, and I believe
that you can dominate your environment. You can inspire in
(22:23):
others the will to be great, you can lead them
and h a hell of the One of the first
we got because he was a troublemaker was a guy
by the name of Willie Brown, and he probably we
got him in ninete is the greatest player to have
a player's position cornerback Um. To get back to picking
up the renegades, the cutthroats, What about the philosophy that
(22:48):
you've had about because so many teams would say and
see a guy like gals Ado or Hendrix and said, look,
I don't want the aggravation and that you say that
you can look past that, and yet when they come here,
they don't seem to cause any trouble. Why is that
you gotta remember one thing. You call them cutthroats and
trouble because I've and and uh, if if they're the
troublemakers of our society, I'll take them because they've all
(23:11):
been a part of my life. And I admit that
they have been problems with them, not trouble problems with them,
But those problems are normal and and the way our
cultures go. And you can't expect to lead fifty to
sixty men every year and that have these kind of problems. Uh,
when you get into alcohol, you get into drugs, and
(23:31):
you get into the egos of men and the temperament
and and and the problems that they go through in
their own personal lives and and that all filters back
to you. But this used to be a source that
we could tap for great players and have an edge
on other teams about what's happened. When Bill Walsh goes
to San Francisco, and Steve Orton May goes to San Diego,
(23:53):
and Kenny here I goes to Atlanta, all guys who
grew up with us, John Robinson goes to the Rams,
and uh, now Tom Flores is up in Seattle. You're
gonna see that they're not gonna let us have this
untapped area without them sticking their hand in and saying
we'll take this guy, will take a chance, will make
him better. Now, there has been a a new problem
(24:16):
that has been injected into our lives, and that's what
we talked a little bit about, and that's the drug problem. Now,
the uh guarantee of success there, the percentage is going
to be much less when you take some player who's
been on drugs, and you have to rationalize with yourself.
You have to live with yourself. Do I do I
(24:36):
do it? As you said, do I want that thing?
Because that's a tough thing to beat, But I think
you can beat it. I think you have to try
from time to time. You have to dominate. You owe that,
you owe that commitment to society to give people a chance,
because I don't think drugs are necessarily a crime in
(24:57):
the sense that we're talking about people who killed people
or rape people. These are sick people and they just
can't beat it. And I don't think our government or
all culture is doing enough to help him beat it.
And uh so I think from time to time you
have to reach out and try. You don't always win,
(25:18):
because that's a tough battle, but you have to try.
Thank I find it so interesting that as tunnel visioned
as al Davis was towards football, he also had tremendous
thoughtfulness when it came to social issues, whether it's the
disease of addiction or the American educational system as we
heard about in Part one. I believe that al Davis
(25:41):
would be proud that he built a sustainable culture that
enables his organization to support two of its biggest stars
who have openly battled drug and alcohol problems. Tight end
Darren Waller and defensive end Max Crosby, both of work
to stay clean and sober and productive on the field,
just the way Davis would have hoped. The phrase Powamilla
(26:04):
very organization, What does that mean? Well, it's uh, this
strong discipline up to a point. There are rules and
regulations that have to be adhered to. Up to a point.
There's one or two voices and it's unfortunate that well,
(26:25):
I'm one of them that makes the final decision and
we have to adhere to it. And it's like a
military organization, only that they're all not treated alike. They're
treated the way they want to be treated. Within the
confines of the discipline and of the organizational structure that
has to be adhered to, and that adherence is that
(26:48):
our first goal is to win. We have a commitment
to excellence. People have to subjugate some of their egos,
some of their own great abilities, for the good of
the organization. I told you this. I don't believe you
can continuously win Super Bowl running the halfback. And if
you have a great halfback who can run the ball,
(27:10):
if he's not going to subjugate his abilities to the
good of the organization, then really he shouldn't be here.
I told you other things about what I consider paramilitary
relative to a way of playing the game. I don't
want to play the game take what they give you.
(27:30):
I don't want to play a lateral game. I want
to play a vertical game. And I want to attack deep,
and I want them to know we're going to attack deep.
And and that's the way it is. Okay. I want
to go back to the immaculate reception. What was your
reaction when that happened? Now, I mean to go back
in time, and Ron Wolf was sitting next to Year.
(27:51):
I think he told me that he would during that game.
He he talked about if I want to hear from
you what happened? That's that Mic go down is a
single most famous play in the history of the National
Football League. And what was your reaction? Can you just
he lived at and go take us through what happened after?
Gim mean right at the particular moment. Well, it was
fourth down and Bratcho is back to throw, and I
(28:12):
remember distinct la to this day without saying, he was
attacked in the pocket, and we had what we call
a spy on on the line of scrimmage, who would
uh if if brad Chow got out of the pocket,
which he was brilliant at although he was very young
and later he became more dangerous getting out of the
pocket than in it. And he got out just for
a moment, and our spy was loafing a little and
(28:35):
didn't attack him really, But I remember the whole player
remember Fuke were coming across, and I remember I was
annoyed at Tatum. It was fourth down and Jack came
into intercept and could have just knocked the ball down
and it would have been over. And the events started
to happen so fast that tip ball Franco gets it.
He'd go down the sideline, Jimmy chases and Jimmy Warren
just misses in about the eight yard line. Uh, bedlam
(28:58):
breaks out. And by the way, uh, in reflection, you know,
about fifteen minutes later, I thought we got taken. The
word is stronger than that by everyone, and we should
have had that football game. But we didn't get it.
But to his credit, Mr Rooney got it. He was
in an elevator. He didn't even see the play. He
(29:20):
was going down in the locker room. He told me later,
congratulated his guy for having a great season. He thought
they lost, which they should have. But immediately after the play,
I started to look for Rott McNally to issue a
protest because what I called a double tap, what I
meant was that it hit Fuqua and then went to
Franco and it would have been illegal. I see Dan
(29:43):
Rooney standing with McNally and they're on the phone, and
they had a wind to phone and they were calling
down to the field, and I knew that Danny had
gotten there first, and uh, there's nothing we were going
to do to prevent it. And uh, it's one of
the great moments in National Football League history. It's not
a great moment in radar history. But if you judge
(30:05):
it that way, fine, But I just thought it was
a mistake. But it was one of those things that
wasn't honest. I guess it was an honest mistake and
Fuquin knows he hit it and it should have been
our game talking about the Raider history to hear some
other players that I just want to and come Jackson
evaluation of truly truly great player, great athlete. I'm proud
(30:29):
that he's a part of the Raider organization and I'm
proud that he's one of the first players, well the
first player of the last fifty years. Let's say, to
play boat sports and do him great and I think
he'll even get better at both sports as time goes on,
and uh, I encourage him to do both sports. And
I think for the Raiders, if we knew every year,
(30:50):
after the first four games of the season or after
the first six at the trading deadline in the National
Football League, you could get one of the greatest players
for nothing to help your team. It's tremendous and that's
what we do. And that's the way I looked at
Bo Jackson. It's one of those UH, uh risks that
an organization has to take from time to time. You
(31:12):
have to put up you have to have the resources
to do it and get great players in your organization.
There's nothing like it to have him passed through and
where those colors silver and black. And I still predict
that in the near future, just like he's done in
the past, he's starting to come on. He's starting to
learn what we're doing and all we're starting to learn him.
You know, you have to know him. He'll be making
(31:34):
bigger and greater contributions to narratas. What about the dichotomy
between the two sports, and I mean there are people
that would say that it's detracting from both both abilities
to do to to play football in the baseball what
what is? What? What's your apply to those that to that,
that's an obvious observation that h five year old could
do that if you have to do both sports, that
(31:56):
might take away from one. That isn't the idea of
this exercise. The idea is to encourage both to do
both great and even though there might be a negative
or two, there are so many positives that the negatives
just fall by the way. Sign as far as I'm concerned.
I I know all the people who make these predictions
for everyone in life, but bo I kind of had
(32:17):
that same problem personally. U. Bo is a maverick. He
goes to his own team, but he's been a team player. Uh.
He's been cooperative. He's done everything asked of him. And
that's all you can ask of the player. I'm not
I'm not here to uh. Uh. I think the problem
in our society is that there are a lot of
people who don't want them to do both. For some
(32:39):
reason or other. Their culture has dictated that you can't
do both. And here's a guy going against what they've
been taught who can do both. Let him do it.
Let's get behind him. It would be great for America
to have someone that we could look up to that
could do both. There's nothing wrong. No one's gonna come
along to do it, uh very much uh in the
(32:59):
near future, So let's have one guy do it. But look,
we've all gone through life of people telling us we
can't do something, well, we shouldn't do something, or it's wrong.
He's not breaking any law. He's just doing with it hard.
Dick fates and he has great athletic ability, to do it,
and we ought to let him do it. Uh the
great and eventually tragic story of Bou Jackson. When this
(33:21):
interview was conducted in Bow had just completed his third
season in the NFL, and it appeared he was destined
for a Hall of Fame career in two sports. Well
we all know it ended the next year with a
hip injury that cut short his football career. But isn't
it enlightening listening to Davis talk about his attitude toward Bow.
(33:42):
In fact, a few years later, when Dion Sanders attempted
to play both sports, there was much more of a backlash,
at least from the Atlanta Braves, but Al Davis he
saw a bigger picture for both his team, for Bow,
and really for the entire sports world. When we come back,
we'll hear Al Davis on John Madden Pete Roselle, a
(34:03):
story that may surprise you and his legacy. Stay tuned,
Welcome back to Tales from the Vault. There always seemed
to be two names associated with Al Davis for vastly
different reasons, John Madden and Pete Roselle, dating back to
(34:25):
the nineteen sixties. Suffice it to say, in a gross
understatement that Davis and Roselle had a longstanding feud. There
were two alpha males who, despite their rivalry, set the
stage for the NFL to truly become America's game. Then,
of course, in nineteen sixty nine, Davis promoted thirty two
(34:46):
year old John Madden from linebackers coach to head coach.
Now Al knew something about cultivating young head coaches, considering
that he was the youngest head coach general manager in
NFL history with the Raiders back in nineteen sixty three.
For the ten years under John Madden, the Raiders appeared
in six a f C Championship games and won the
(35:09):
Super Bowl in the nine six. He was the perfect
fit for the Al Davis Raiders. Why what was John
Madden's greatest strength alls a coach? What were the things
about him that that that that made him so successful?
I I don't think it was any individual thing. I
think he was a great coach. I think he was
one of the greatest coaches of our time and he
(35:29):
should be perceived that way, and I thought he should
have been in the Hall of Fame. In his ten
years as a head coach, he's won over a hundred games,
more than any other coach. He has the highest winning
percentage of any other coach in professional football, and he
should be in the Hall of Fame. But the tough
part about working for the Raiders is, for some reason
or other, there's a echelon of press that goes against
(35:53):
anything that represents Silver and Black or Raiders. And he
had a way. He understood defense. He learned in the
first few years as a head coach. The passing game
he had us did very well. He knew the players
in the league. He uh believed in matchups. He understood matchups,
He understood players their lives, and he got them to play.
(36:14):
But most of all, it was a way of life
for him. He committed himself to it totally. I know
that we used to sit up nights. All we ever
did was football. We were like kids. We get together,
uh in the late afternoon in the off season, sit
around the office and just talk football like we were
in the old candy store or something on the corner.
(36:35):
And uh we we we just lived our life. And
this was his dream to be a head coach. He
knew he didn't want to do it forever, and he
was so successful at it that after ten years. He
had some physical problems, but he got out and he's successful.
What he's doing now. He's a great teacher and just
the way he is on the television, he's adjusted a
(36:57):
little and he's just he's just great. He could win,
and unfortunately, you have to win before you considered great,
and he could win, and he did win. What do
you look back on the decade of the of the eighties?
What to you are the significant achievements or events of
the eighties, not necessarily for you personally, but for the
(37:17):
overall the National Football League. Well, there are a lot
of negative ones. Unfortunately, a lot of things that came
up that we have to deal with and I'm not
sure we've dealt with. That would be the collective bargaining
agreement with the players, the drug problem, the resignation of
the commissioner, all the lawsuits that we the league lost
(37:41):
in court that fortunately the rate is won. But I
also look upon the eighties as the growth of a
lot of great players and a lot of great organizations
that came to the forefront. Certainly Bill Walsh took the
forty nine is to the forefront, and the Redskins came back,
and then still that this game and the fans love
(38:03):
toughness as the as personified. And then of course the
contribution of the Raiders winning a Super Bowl in Oakland,
winning a Super Bowl in Los Angeles, and uh, uh,
but the eighties aren't over it. We still got eighty nine,
still got a chance. What about the Pete Rosel when
he resigned? Yeah, sure about that that? Sure? You know, Pete,
(38:27):
Pete Rosel and Al Davis have been adversaries for many years,
ever since I became commissioner of the American Football League
and we think forced the merging. And since that time,
Pete and I have been adversaries. And uh, we had
gone through all this fighting in these court cases through
the eighties. It was vicious. But yet that particular day,
(38:51):
Palm springs nine as we sat there, time is a
great healer of wounds. And we had just uh been
talking about settlement of the case between the Raiders and
uh the National Football League, and Peak cut up in
the afternoon and we came back from lunch and started
(39:12):
talking in a very funny way and then let us
know that he was resigning, And emotionally, I was greatly
concerned about his health. He started to tear cry, and
he stood up and he started to go out to
see the press. And as he stopped walking out of
the room, he was walking by the area where I
was sitting at the executive committee meeting. He was speaking
(39:35):
to the entire executive committee of twenty eight owners, and
our eyes just made contact, and so I stopped walking
taught him, and he redirected and stopped walking towards me,
and we embraced, and I just said, I'm sorry. I
hope to God everything is okay. I was greatly concerned
about him, And as I said to you, when we're competitive,
(40:00):
is out there on the field or anywhere I want
to win. But once you get off that playing field,
whether it be in public school or high school or anywhere,
there is something about life or death and health that
you have to have compassion for. And I was greatly
concerned about him. And he had given his life to
professional football, just like I have, and I wished him
(40:24):
well and I hope to God that everything goes well
for him in the future. And uh, I thought it
was normal for men to embrace at a time like that.
What is it about the Raiders? Yourself has created this,
this tremendous bond of loyalty to guys that are playing
now that that that come back that to talk about
(40:46):
the silver and black and like the two Sacs here
was going to Germany and he wanted three or four
Raiders jackets to take with. I mean, what, why, how
how has that been created or how have you established that? Well,
when I started it, I told you that I wanted
it to be different. I wanted the Raiders to be different.
I wanted when I played for the Raiders and he
war what I called the fame colors of silver and black,
(41:08):
that it would be a part of him the rest
of his life, that he would think silver and black
like some big college used to be when we're kids,
like Notre Dame used to be along those lines. And
we've been able to do it. And uh, as I
told you before, I realize that all the great players
and even those who weren't great, who made a contribution
(41:29):
to the Raiders who came before, in whose glory we
all share, and those who are gonna come on in
the future, all made this great contribution. And so I
feel that there's a debt that we owe to them,
and we can never forget that debt, and that that
there's more to life. I realized this. In my culture,
you have to win there there there is no substitute.
(41:53):
But I also realized that there's more to life than
just winning. There's there's a relationship among men, among families,
among people, and I want them to always feel that
they belong to thisganization, that that there's a certain pride,
there's a certain poison. I know it sounds corny somewhere else,
but but it's something I believe in, and it's something
that I want to happen, and I'm very thankful that
(42:15):
it has happened. I want I I can't tell you
that I might see John Madden only three times a year,
but there's a certain relationship there, a friendliness like I
see him every day and UH know him, and he
knows how I think, and we both believe in the
same things. And I just would want this organization to
(42:37):
carry on forever that way, if it's at all possible.
The last question, and we're wrapped up the legacy that
you would want to leave when when you're if you
ever retire from the game, when you're no longer part
of the game, and and your name is mentioned, I mean,
what are the things that when somebody says uh al
Davis and people are talking, and what would you want
(42:57):
them to say, or what would your like? What would
you want your legacy to be? Well, I wouldn't want
my legacy to be able to want it to be
associated with the greatest organization in professional sports, the Rates,
a standard of excellence by which all other organizations could
be measured. And then if you asked who started the
(43:21):
Raiders and who guided it and who directed it along
with the great help of people like John Madden and
Tom Flores who are my friends, and all the great players,
and how Locu Sell and my partners who were limited
partners with the Raiders, that's what I would want, I
would I would I would think that that would be
a great legacy if the Rates could end up as
(43:43):
the greatest organization and professional sports and continue that, and
that I would be associated with the the individual who
started it and who set the guidelines, and as I said,
the standard of excellence by which all of us could
be measured. Al Davis's legacy can be measured in many ways,
but loyalty has to be a top criteria, and maybe
(44:05):
that's best exemplified by the number of Hall of Fame
players whom Al presented when they were inducted. For the record,
that number is nine more than anyone else, Lance Alworth,
Jim Otto, George Blanda, Willie Brown, Gene Upshaw, Fred Blitnikoff,
Art Shell, Ted Hendrix, and John Madden. And three years
(44:29):
after this interview was conducted, Madden presented Davis at his
Hall of Fame induction in I can't imagine ending on
a stronger interview. And this is it for Tells from
the Vault. Twenty episodes just flew by. In fact, if
you missed any, please go back and listen. This has
truly been a passion project for me and and you
(44:52):
know how we talked about the flame lit in Radars Stadium. Well,
I hope that this podcast keeps alive. The brilliance of
Steve Sable, his fearlessness to ask any question, delve into
any subject, his humor and incredible inquisitiveness. The trust he
nurtured with NFL luminaries, which allowed them to open up
(45:13):
in previously unheard of ways, as we saw with Al
Davis talking about his beloved wife. Make no mistake, Steve
was the leader and the visionary of NFL Films and
no Hyperbole is hugely responsible for the success of the
league to this day. This September marks a decade since
Steve tragically died of brain cancer at only sixty nine.
(45:37):
I thank you for listening and supporting this podcast and
the legacy of Stephen Douglas Sable with tremendous gratitude to
my amazing producer, Chip Swain, and for all the terrific,
talented and dedicated folks at NFL Films. I'm Andrea Kramer.
(46:05):
One
Tales from the Vault is a production of the NFL
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to NFL Films
Tales from the Vault. I'm your host, Hall of Fame
journalist Andrea Kramer. I actually started my TV career at
NFL Films. And when you work there, you learn that
(00:25):
one of Steve Sable's favorite sayings was, and I quote,
tell me a fact and i'll learn. Tell me a
truth and I'll believe. But tell me a story and
it will live in my heart forever. So I'd like
to start off by telling you a little story about
my career at NFL Films. I was this young producer
(00:45):
and it's a Saturday night and I went into the vault,
and in those days, the vault consisted of cans of film.
So I got up on a ladder to probably reach
for the nineties Championship game. And I'm teetering on this
ladder and all I'm thinking of is, oh, my gosh,
don't let me all off the ladder and be found
(01:06):
as road kill on a Monday morning by somebody who's
coming in here. But you know what, on a Saturday
night at ten pm, there was only one other light
on in the building, and that light was my mentor
and boss, Steve Sable. So it is very special to
me that I get to go back into that vault
(01:26):
to bring you some of the greatest interviews between Steve
Sable and some of the greatest figures in NFL history.
Today we head back to for part two of Steve's
fascinating conversation with the late owner of the Raiders, Al Davis. Yeah,
(01:57):
in part one of this interview, and folks, if you
haven't heard it, I would strongly suggest you go back
and listen to it. We hurt. Steve and Al talk
mostly about Al Davis's favorite subject, Raiders football. It was
truly a clinic in team building, what culture really means,
coaching and leadership. But today's conversation starts on a personal level,
(02:21):
as Steven al get into Davis's childhood and his dreams
of becoming an owner of an NFL team one day.
But it's much more than that. For a man who
was described as cunning and devious and actually thought those
were pretty good compliments, you are about to hear a
side of Al Davis you might never have imagined existed.
(02:43):
No hyperbole here. What you're going to hear when he
talks about his wife Carol and the medical travails that
she went through, is absolutely extraordinary. The detail with which
he describes what he went through, what she went through,
and how he was there, how he left football for
really the first time in his life for something bigger
(03:07):
is absolutely amongst the most meaningful things you will here
on this podcast. So now let's go to the vault
for part two of Steve Sable and Al Davis. I
want to go back to growing up right from the beginning,
that's what you wanted to mean, because that's such a
great story. I mean, how many people and everyone have
the dream and how many other how many people that
(03:29):
have a dream get to accomplish it the way you have,
so that makes it grow unique right from the beginning.
But what about your your childhood when you're growing up?
I mean, you have so many strong feelings and so
many opinions. It was that shape when you were a kid,
and how was it? I mean, what was your childhood
like to to to to cultivate these this emotion and
the theories that you're well. I came to Brooklyn, New
(03:52):
York from Massachusetts when I was about five years old.
And uh, there's no question growing up there. Being on
the streets led me to meet many diverse people and
grow up amongst them. And uh, I think that when
I look back, I always lead. I always love sports.
(04:12):
We didn't have television in the mid thirties and early forties,
although my family was one of the first to get
it in the early forties. And uh uh, I can
vividly remember the seven or eight newspapers that were in
New York City. I used to devour them, read them
every day, to read about the Yankees, read about the Dodgers.
(04:34):
Pro football was just in its infancy. It was just
s thoughting to grow. But I love football, and I
love basketball and baseball. Quite frankly, I love them all.
And I just devoured everything about him and started to
shape and watch different people and the creativity and watch
players and started the form in my mind. Certain uh
(04:54):
they had a good certain prejudices about players. Uh uh.
And to to to whoever's credit it is my parents.
God always gave me the privilege of going out and
free expression, allowing me to do what I wanted to do,
living in the park, living in your high school athletic fields,
(05:17):
and just just doing it day and night and just
living it, and and it became a way of life
to me. It wasn't just a part of my life,
it was a way of life. And I just love
it when kids used to choose up when you were
a little Were you one of the first chosen, were
the less well, I'd like to think I was one
of the guys choosing. I'm picking. I know I was
(05:44):
one of the guys choosing. I was an organize I
could organize, I I could I could lead when it
when it came to that, I could lead. And uh
uh you know, I've always kept in contact, even even
from my public school, with some of my classmates, and
just recently, uh, one of the girls I went to
public school with became the first woman publisher of a
(06:07):
major publishing concern, and we would renew old friendships and
she would talk to the girls here and she would
tell him even when I was a kid, I was
the one who led. And then junior high school, then
high school. You know, my high school, Erasmus Hall. Uh.
We had a big reunion here by people, and to
(06:28):
Erasmus is credit. Some of the greatest people in America today,
especially in sports, came from Erasmus resmus Hall High School.
We had six at one time, UH doing outstanding things
in professional sports, UH in the seventies and the eighties.
And my high school teammate that was something that that
(06:48):
kind of destroyed me for a while because life and
death are are so big with me health and he
died on the mound. He was the pitching coach of
the Dodgers. We played together at Don McMahon, the great
relief pitcher, and it was just two years ago that
he died on the mound as a pitching coach for
the die just And those are things that stopping and
make you think, and UH realized that there is another
(07:11):
part of life other than just football and winning, and
that's life for death and sickness and and maybe maybe
that's the only place I feel that I haven't been
able to contribute enough. I've always liked to think that
I could dominate my environment, and I'm trying and and
that's something I like to try and dominate. ID like
to try and contribute to because I'm not talking from
(07:32):
a doctor standpoint. I'm not talking from a nurse's standpoint.
And by the way, my experience with nurses are just
super they they're they're they're unheralded. Uh, they should be
standing out winning uh Nurse of the Year, this kind
of you know, player of the year. They should be
getting bonuses for making it to Hawaii to the Pro Bowl.
(07:53):
But in any event, I think that so many sick
people in families who have sick people need help as
far as management of how you're gonna handle sickness, crisis
management of sickness, it would just be just be great.
But that's getting away from what we're talking of. Leads
into what we wanted to talk about with your with
your experience with Carol and how did that if you
(08:16):
could go over that about what happened and how you
had to cope with it, and also that the feelings
that were going on inside you when when she was
in the hospital. Yeah, you mean my wife, Carol, you
know when we got married. Uh joking. I used to
tell a listen, the only thing that's ever gonna take
me away from football is life or death. I'm just
telling you that. And I guess she decided to put
(08:38):
me to the test because in ninety nine, it was October.
We were getting ready to leave on a Friday to
play the jets in New York and the Thursday night
she went into a comma. She was in a coma
fourteen days. Every top doctor and neurologist that I had
(08:59):
met told me that she would be a vegetable and
maybe never even living if she did as a sayoud
be a vegetable. And uh, you know, we had all
the plugs and here and all of that, and they
were talking about pulling plugs and things like that, and Uh,
no big deal, because I would do this for any friend.
I think it's based on faith, love and whatever else
(09:19):
you want to call it. Uh. I gave a football,
moved into the hospital. They let me, and I moved
in on the same floor with her and fought that
thing through. And there was no way that I was
just gonna let a lie there. I was talking to
people in Switzerland, anywhere in the world that I could
get help with something that might be different. I was
(09:41):
gonna try it, and I was just not going to
accept that this was a fact. And uh, I would
try different doctors, different neurologists. They were all super they
were all trying to help me and comfort me. I'll
never forget one said to me. I had seen her
one night, about after the eighth day, in the middle
of the night, I thought I had contact with it.
We all think these things. I guess when when when
(10:02):
when they're in Tacoma. And I told him about it,
and he said to me, Al we all see things
that we want to see at this type of period.
And I said, no, no, I saw it. And and
and he he wouldn't, he wouldn't accept it. And he
thought I was kind of, you know, making up things,
which is which is understandable. But anyhow, thank god, after
(10:25):
about fourteen days, uh, she awakened and after a total rehabilitation,
it took about six months to a year. We had
to teach you how to eat again, how to put
our socks on, how to do all those things. Uh.
She needed therapy work, she needed the memory work. But
thank god, today she's she's perfect. I think you can
(10:46):
hear the intensity in al Davis's voice, but you should
see his face just for calling this. The look on
his face is just it's full of pain. Because for
those of us who knew al Davis, even tangentially, you
understood that this man had only one fear in life,
(11:06):
the one thing he couldn't control, and that was death.
So a little bit more background on the story about
Al's wife, Carol. In October of nineteen nine, she suffered
a massive heart attack a subsequent stroke, and spent twenty
three days in a coma on a ventilator in an
Oakland hospital, regaining consciousness only occasionally by her side all
(11:29):
that time. Occupying the next bed was her husband, who
left the Oakland Raiders during that entire ordeal and talked
into his wife's ear for hours on end, encouraging her
even though she couldn't respond, And then one day she
woke up. This might have been Davis's greatest coaching job ever.
(11:51):
To quote Carol Davis's doctor, It's a miracle, no question
about it. I've never seen anyone that's sick makes such
a recovery. Well, you know what, not anyone had Al
Davis by their side. What did you do you want
in there? What? What? What was exactly what you were
doing at your bed, at her bedside, and what were
(12:11):
you saying? And your motivation behind that? Well, well, I
want to say, first the doctors, the nurses that little hospital,
merrit Hospital, Oakland, California, were just fantastic. I'll never forget him.
And from time to time, I'm in contact with him
because they actually helped save her life. And uh, it
(12:34):
was my objective after a period of days when the
feeling was that there was no hope, that this was
a fatal company, that I could not leave her. She
was my friend, my wife. I could not leave her
line there and accept that. I just just couldn't believe it.
As little I knew about medicine, so I was determined
(12:56):
to try and dominate that situation, at least from the
management of it, procuring all the information I could from
all over the world. And of course I have more
means than other people, so I can do these things.
And I and I must admit another thing that I
had to support of the entire country, certainly pro football,
the media, the television people. I can remember games on
(13:20):
in her room while she was in a coma. The
game was on and they would be talking about her,
and I would try to talk to her and tell her, baby,
they're talking about you. Now, you've got to get up.
And every night would spend hours with her, talking to
with the hope that maybe I could do something with
the idea that you'll leave no stone unturned, and uh,
(13:42):
you know, God was good to us and brought her
back and gave her back and now she's doing great.
And now it's our turn from time to time to
tray and make a contribution to the lives of others,
or at least give him the hope that coma is
not over at the end of ten days of fifteen,
even that people do wake up, they do live a
(14:02):
normal life, or at least uh try everything possible to
do it. I don't think anything or anyone else would
have taken Al Davis away from football, but it illustrates
the love and loyalty he had for his wife, two
qualities that are actually hallmarks of Davis's life. When Davis
(14:23):
passed away, in controlling interest of the Raiders, passed to
his wife, Carol and son Mark. Carol still lives in California,
but she commutes to Las Vegas to attend games and
is still hailed as the first Lady of Raiders football.
She even lit the ceremonial Al Davis torch prior to
(14:43):
the raiders first home game in Las Vegas, and Mark
Davis told me it was one of the most meaningful
events of his life. Mother and son remain committed to
as Al Davis loved to call it the greatness of
the Raiders, and in fact they were on hand at
last year's Hall of Fame induction ceremony as Tom Floory's presenter.
(15:05):
When we come back, Alan Steve get into Davis's ability
to see into the future. Stay tuned, Welcome back to
NFL Films Tales from the Vault. As we return to
Football Talk, this upcoming discussion showcases Al Davis the coach,
general manager, tactician. Simply, there have been so few owners
(15:28):
who have the pedigree and knowledge based to wax poetic
on strategy and personnel. But we're not caring for his wife.
Al Davis eight slept and breathed football, and he was
steadfast in his beliefs about how to build a winner,
and it started with being proactive, not reactive. One thing
(15:50):
that keeps coming up about people that talk about you
is your ability to perceive the future, to foretell either
a player's potential or or or or a developing trend
in the game. And what could you elaborate that? What's
that call? And could you could you explain that? Could
you an example that you can give of something that
you've had this that you saw it and then it
(16:12):
actually a specific example of it that sounds pretty good.
Keep talking, no U, I guess I've always referred to
it as gestal. It's a German word means the ability
to perceive into the future something that could happen or
it could develop before it really does. It's ability great
(16:34):
statesmen have they see a situation. Builders they see the
need for parts, so they see the need for certain
type housing long before there is a need for it.
And we have been able through the years to take
football players and move them into other positions where they
become great players, whereas they might not have been great
(16:55):
at the positions they were playing. Uh the ability to
perceive in the future something that should happen and could happen,
and plan for it. And uh So, I don't know
where you're headed directly, but I think this organization has
always been uh positive and before it happens, thinkers as
(17:18):
as to what's going to happen and and being ready
for it and developing players along those lines. Is there
a specific example of a player I think you really
is the best example of all of that, the taking
guy from one position of moving him to another. And
what did you see in that guy that made you
want to shift them to the other physician. Well, you know,
there are so many examples, and I say that with
(17:40):
humility here with the Raiders. But I guess the first
two great ones were taking Billy Cannon, who was the
Hodsman Trophy winner from l s U great player, first
round draft choice of the National Football League and the
American Football League, and and uh Billy played for the
oil As. We traded for him, and we moved him
(18:02):
from half back to tight end. And I felt that
that was the first other than maybe the fellow who
played for the Eagles, Retz Laugh tight end of his time,
who had the speed to go deep, who could put
the pressure on the defense deep, and he was very quick.
He was a very good block up. But he was
a very big touchdown catcher for the Raiders. And at
the same time, I took certainly Todd Christensen. I like
(18:25):
to use the expression he gets annoyed. We took him
off the street. He had been cut by two teams
after being a second round raft choice of the Dallas Cowboys,
had been cut by Dallas and the Johnson When we
got him, I'll let him fool around and full back
for a while and then called him in and said, look,
I'm gonna make you tight end. And I recounted the
story of Billy Cannon to him that I thought he
(18:47):
could be great. I thought he could help dominate the
National Football League for terms of what we wanted to
do with him. And uh uh. To his credit, he
had several years where he caught over rady passes and
was a great contributor to the greatness of the Raiders book.
We've had many play us where one of the few
teams that have taken players who have played offense and
(19:10):
turned them around and made him into defensive players. And uh,
we do it often. If we think it's the thing
to do, we'll do it. I'm a great believer the
rates have in matchups that if there's a great team
in our conference, I better know if the rateers can
match up with that team and be able to play
him and handle the people man for man at skilled
(19:31):
positions defensive line. And here was Hank Stram's great Kansas
City Chiefs teams starting to grow as big as we are,
starting to dominate the American Football League, and their two
tackles were Ernie Ladd and Buck Buchanan and I was
determined that if Buck Buchanan, who was very young, was
going to play ten years at right tackle for the
(19:52):
Kansas City Chiefs, I'd better have a left guard, which
was unheard of to put a guy six five six
six at guard, but I put up show it guard
because I knew I had to handle Buchanan for the
next ten years. Otherwise the Raiders were going to be
in trouble. What about the other thing the Raiders are
known for is that is the troublemakers from other teams,
the Alsados them at two secs to Hendricks, and yet
(20:12):
they all seemed to gravitate towards the Raiders. And when
they come here, every one of them to the mad
says the reason I treated like a man. There's one
thing the organization is focused. Why have you been so
successful with these so called troublemakers and you almost you
almost look for him? I mean to bring these guys
and why why is that? Well? Number one, they may
be troublemakers, but add the next expression that great football players.
(20:35):
And uh, I wasn't doing it based on love or emotion.
I was doing it because I thought they were great
and they could make a contribution to the Raiders. Uh,
Mattuzak just a great football player, just unpap needed confidence.
Uh needed a feeling that you believed in him. Alsado, Uh,
I don't know if Alzado was was such that he
(20:57):
was a troublemaker. Was that everyone thought he was through
and he wasn't through, And uh he was a great contributor.
It's a funny thing. Alsato played for the Raiders in
the year eighty two. Law didn't lyle uh bless him
originally came from Brooklyn, New York, Lawrence, Long Island, and
uh was a high draft choice of the Denver Bronco
(21:20):
as he played there for many years played for Cleveland.
Everyone thought he was through And he only played for
the Raiders in the year eighty two, eight four and
part of eighty five, And yet everyone thinks he's been
a Raider all his life. Now. John Matuzac came to
US in nineteen seventy six and played in two Super
Bowl years for US, two wins and was a great contributor.
(21:41):
And there are so many that that have come to
us with the label of troublemaker that I think it's wrong.
I think that what they have to prove to us
when they come here, is that they can't get along
with us, that we can't get along with them. We
we've had a couple through the years, but not very many.
(22:02):
And I great believe that if you have an environment
that allows people some freedom in a paramilitary situation, but
yet you have a common goal, unity of purpose, commitment,
that that they can do it. And I just believe
in young people. I believe in people, and I believe
that you can dominate your environment. You can inspire in
(22:23):
others the will to be great, you can lead them
and h a hell of the One of the first
we got because he was a troublemaker was a guy
by the name of Willie Brown, and he probably we
got him in ninete is the greatest player to have
a player's position cornerback Um. To get back to picking
up the renegades, the cutthroats, What about the philosophy that
(22:48):
you've had about because so many teams would say and
see a guy like gals Ado or Hendrix and said, look,
I don't want the aggravation and that you say that
you can look past that, and yet when they come here,
they don't seem to cause any trouble. Why is that
you gotta remember one thing. You call them cutthroats and
trouble because I've and and uh, if if they're the
troublemakers of our society, I'll take them because they've all
(23:11):
been a part of my life. And I admit that
they have been problems with them, not trouble problems with them,
But those problems are normal and and the way our
cultures go. And you can't expect to lead fifty to
sixty men every year and that have these kind of problems. Uh,
when you get into alcohol, you get into drugs, and
(23:31):
you get into the egos of men and the temperament
and and and the problems that they go through in
their own personal lives and and that all filters back
to you. But this used to be a source that
we could tap for great players and have an edge
on other teams about what's happened. When Bill Walsh goes
to San Francisco, and Steve Orton May goes to San Diego,
(23:53):
and Kenny here I goes to Atlanta, all guys who
grew up with us, John Robinson goes to the Rams,
and uh, now Tom Flores is up in Seattle. You're
gonna see that they're not gonna let us have this
untapped area without them sticking their hand in and saying
we'll take this guy, will take a chance, will make
him better. Now, there has been a a new problem
(24:16):
that has been injected into our lives, and that's what
we talked a little bit about, and that's the drug problem. Now,
the uh guarantee of success there, the percentage is going
to be much less when you take some player who's
been on drugs, and you have to rationalize with yourself.
You have to live with yourself. Do I do I
(24:36):
do it? As you said, do I want that thing?
Because that's a tough thing to beat, But I think
you can beat it. I think you have to try
from time to time. You have to dominate. You owe that,
you owe that commitment to society to give people a chance,
because I don't think drugs are necessarily a crime in
(24:57):
the sense that we're talking about people who killed people
or rape people. These are sick people and they just
can't beat it. And I don't think our government or
all culture is doing enough to help him beat it.
And uh so I think from time to time you
have to reach out and try. You don't always win,
(25:18):
because that's a tough battle, but you have to try.
Thank I find it so interesting that as tunnel visioned
as al Davis was towards football, he also had tremendous
thoughtfulness when it came to social issues, whether it's the
disease of addiction or the American educational system as we
heard about in Part one. I believe that al Davis
(25:41):
would be proud that he built a sustainable culture that
enables his organization to support two of its biggest stars
who have openly battled drug and alcohol problems. Tight end
Darren Waller and defensive end Max Crosby, both of work
to stay clean and sober and productive on the field,
just the way Davis would have hoped. The phrase Powamilla
(26:04):
very organization, What does that mean? Well, it's uh, this
strong discipline up to a point. There are rules and
regulations that have to be adhered to. Up to a point.
There's one or two voices and it's unfortunate that well,
(26:25):
I'm one of them that makes the final decision and
we have to adhere to it. And it's like a
military organization, only that they're all not treated alike. They're
treated the way they want to be treated. Within the
confines of the discipline and of the organizational structure that
has to be adhered to, and that adherence is that
(26:48):
our first goal is to win. We have a commitment
to excellence. People have to subjugate some of their egos,
some of their own great abilities, for the good of
the organization. I told you this. I don't believe you
can continuously win Super Bowl running the halfback. And if
you have a great halfback who can run the ball,
(27:10):
if he's not going to subjugate his abilities to the
good of the organization, then really he shouldn't be here.
I told you other things about what I consider paramilitary
relative to a way of playing the game. I don't
want to play the game take what they give you.
(27:30):
I don't want to play a lateral game. I want
to play a vertical game. And I want to attack deep,
and I want them to know we're going to attack deep.
And and that's the way it is. Okay. I want
to go back to the immaculate reception. What was your
reaction when that happened? Now, I mean to go back
in time, and Ron Wolf was sitting next to Year.
(27:51):
I think he told me that he would during that game.
He he talked about if I want to hear from
you what happened? That's that Mic go down is a
single most famous play in the history of the National
Football League. And what was your reaction? Can you just
he lived at and go take us through what happened after?
Gim mean right at the particular moment. Well, it was
fourth down and Bratcho is back to throw, and I
(28:12):
remember distinct la to this day without saying, he was
attacked in the pocket, and we had what we call
a spy on on the line of scrimmage, who would
uh if if brad Chow got out of the pocket,
which he was brilliant at although he was very young
and later he became more dangerous getting out of the
pocket than in it. And he got out just for
a moment, and our spy was loafing a little and
(28:35):
didn't attack him really, But I remember the whole player
remember Fuke were coming across, and I remember I was
annoyed at Tatum. It was fourth down and Jack came
into intercept and could have just knocked the ball down
and it would have been over. And the events started
to happen so fast that tip ball Franco gets it.
He'd go down the sideline, Jimmy chases and Jimmy Warren
just misses in about the eight yard line. Uh, bedlam
(28:58):
breaks out. And by the way, uh, in reflection, you know,
about fifteen minutes later, I thought we got taken. The
word is stronger than that by everyone, and we should
have had that football game. But we didn't get it.
But to his credit, Mr Rooney got it. He was
in an elevator. He didn't even see the play. He
(29:20):
was going down in the locker room. He told me later,
congratulated his guy for having a great season. He thought
they lost, which they should have. But immediately after the play,
I started to look for Rott McNally to issue a
protest because what I called a double tap, what I
meant was that it hit Fuqua and then went to
Franco and it would have been illegal. I see Dan
(29:43):
Rooney standing with McNally and they're on the phone, and
they had a wind to phone and they were calling
down to the field, and I knew that Danny had
gotten there first, and uh, there's nothing we were going
to do to prevent it. And uh, it's one of
the great moments in National Football League history. It's not
a great moment in radar history. But if you judge
(30:05):
it that way, fine, But I just thought it was
a mistake. But it was one of those things that
wasn't honest. I guess it was an honest mistake and
Fuquin knows he hit it and it should have been
our game talking about the Raider history to hear some
other players that I just want to and come Jackson
evaluation of truly truly great player, great athlete. I'm proud
(30:29):
that he's a part of the Raider organization and I'm
proud that he's one of the first players, well the
first player of the last fifty years. Let's say, to
play boat sports and do him great and I think
he'll even get better at both sports as time goes on,
and uh, I encourage him to do both sports. And
I think for the Raiders, if we knew every year,
(30:50):
after the first four games of the season or after
the first six at the trading deadline in the National
Football League, you could get one of the greatest players
for nothing to help your team. It's tremendous and that's
what we do. And that's the way I looked at
Bo Jackson. It's one of those UH, uh risks that
an organization has to take from time to time. You
(31:12):
have to put up you have to have the resources
to do it and get great players in your organization.
There's nothing like it to have him passed through and
where those colors silver and black. And I still predict
that in the near future, just like he's done in
the past, he's starting to come on. He's starting to
learn what we're doing and all we're starting to learn him.
You know, you have to know him. He'll be making
(31:34):
bigger and greater contributions to narratas. What about the dichotomy
between the two sports, and I mean there are people
that would say that it's detracting from both both abilities
to do to to play football in the baseball what
what is? What? What's your apply to those that to that,
that's an obvious observation that h five year old could
do that if you have to do both sports, that
(31:56):
might take away from one. That isn't the idea of
this exercise. The idea is to encourage both to do
both great and even though there might be a negative
or two, there are so many positives that the negatives
just fall by the way. Sign as far as I'm concerned.
I I know all the people who make these predictions
for everyone in life, but bo I kind of had
(32:17):
that same problem personally. U. Bo is a maverick. He
goes to his own team, but he's been a team player. Uh.
He's been cooperative. He's done everything asked of him. And
that's all you can ask of the player. I'm not
I'm not here to uh. Uh. I think the problem
in our society is that there are a lot of
people who don't want them to do both. For some
(32:39):
reason or other. Their culture has dictated that you can't
do both. And here's a guy going against what they've
been taught who can do both. Let him do it.
Let's get behind him. It would be great for America
to have someone that we could look up to that
could do both. There's nothing wrong. No one's gonna come
along to do it, uh very much uh in the
(32:59):
near future, So let's have one guy do it. But look,
we've all gone through life of people telling us we
can't do something, well, we shouldn't do something, or it's wrong.
He's not breaking any law. He's just doing with it hard.
Dick fates and he has great athletic ability, to do it,
and we ought to let him do it. Uh the
great and eventually tragic story of Bou Jackson. When this
(33:21):
interview was conducted in Bow had just completed his third
season in the NFL, and it appeared he was destined
for a Hall of Fame career in two sports. Well
we all know it ended the next year with a
hip injury that cut short his football career. But isn't
it enlightening listening to Davis talk about his attitude toward Bow.
(33:42):
In fact, a few years later, when Dion Sanders attempted
to play both sports, there was much more of a backlash,
at least from the Atlanta Braves, but Al Davis he
saw a bigger picture for both his team, for Bow,
and really for the entire sports world. When we come back,
we'll hear Al Davis on John Madden Pete Roselle, a
(34:03):
story that may surprise you and his legacy. Stay tuned,
Welcome back to Tales from the Vault. There always seemed
to be two names associated with Al Davis for vastly
different reasons, John Madden and Pete Roselle, dating back to
(34:25):
the nineteen sixties. Suffice it to say, in a gross
understatement that Davis and Roselle had a longstanding feud. There
were two alpha males who, despite their rivalry, set the
stage for the NFL to truly become America's game. Then,
of course, in nineteen sixty nine, Davis promoted thirty two
(34:46):
year old John Madden from linebackers coach to head coach.
Now Al knew something about cultivating young head coaches, considering
that he was the youngest head coach general manager in
NFL history with the Raiders back in nineteen sixty three.
For the ten years under John Madden, the Raiders appeared
in six a f C Championship games and won the
(35:09):
Super Bowl in the nine six. He was the perfect
fit for the Al Davis Raiders. Why what was John
Madden's greatest strength alls a coach? What were the things
about him that that that that made him so successful?
I I don't think it was any individual thing. I
think he was a great coach. I think he was
one of the greatest coaches of our time and he
(35:29):
should be perceived that way, and I thought he should
have been in the Hall of Fame. In his ten
years as a head coach, he's won over a hundred games,
more than any other coach. He has the highest winning
percentage of any other coach in professional football, and he
should be in the Hall of Fame. But the tough
part about working for the Raiders is, for some reason
or other, there's a echelon of press that goes against
(35:53):
anything that represents Silver and Black or Raiders. And he
had a way. He understood defense. He learned in the
first few years as a head coach. The passing game
he had us did very well. He knew the players
in the league. He uh believed in matchups. He understood matchups,
He understood players their lives, and he got them to play.
(36:14):
But most of all, it was a way of life
for him. He committed himself to it totally. I know
that we used to sit up nights. All we ever
did was football. We were like kids. We get together,
uh in the late afternoon in the off season, sit
around the office and just talk football like we were
in the old candy store or something on the corner.
(36:35):
And uh we we we just lived our life. And
this was his dream to be a head coach. He
knew he didn't want to do it forever, and he
was so successful at it that after ten years. He
had some physical problems, but he got out and he's successful.
What he's doing now. He's a great teacher and just
the way he is on the television, he's adjusted a
(36:57):
little and he's just he's just great. He could win,
and unfortunately, you have to win before you considered great,
and he could win, and he did win. What do
you look back on the decade of the of the eighties?
What to you are the significant achievements or events of
the eighties, not necessarily for you personally, but for the
(37:17):
overall the National Football League. Well, there are a lot
of negative ones. Unfortunately, a lot of things that came
up that we have to deal with and I'm not
sure we've dealt with. That would be the collective bargaining
agreement with the players, the drug problem, the resignation of
the commissioner, all the lawsuits that we the league lost
(37:41):
in court that fortunately the rate is won. But I
also look upon the eighties as the growth of a
lot of great players and a lot of great organizations
that came to the forefront. Certainly Bill Walsh took the
forty nine is to the forefront, and the Redskins came back,
and then still that this game and the fans love
(38:03):
toughness as the as personified. And then of course the
contribution of the Raiders winning a Super Bowl in Oakland,
winning a Super Bowl in Los Angeles, and uh, uh,
but the eighties aren't over it. We still got eighty nine,
still got a chance. What about the Pete Rosel when
he resigned? Yeah, sure about that that? Sure? You know, Pete,
(38:27):
Pete Rosel and Al Davis have been adversaries for many years,
ever since I became commissioner of the American Football League
and we think forced the merging. And since that time,
Pete and I have been adversaries. And uh, we had
gone through all this fighting in these court cases through
the eighties. It was vicious. But yet that particular day,
(38:51):
Palm springs nine as we sat there, time is a
great healer of wounds. And we had just uh been
talking about settlement of the case between the Raiders and
uh the National Football League, and Peak cut up in
the afternoon and we came back from lunch and started
(39:12):
talking in a very funny way and then let us
know that he was resigning, And emotionally, I was greatly
concerned about his health. He started to tear cry, and
he stood up and he started to go out to
see the press. And as he stopped walking out of
the room, he was walking by the area where I
was sitting at the executive committee meeting. He was speaking
(39:35):
to the entire executive committee of twenty eight owners, and
our eyes just made contact, and so I stopped walking
taught him, and he redirected and stopped walking towards me,
and we embraced, and I just said, I'm sorry. I
hope to God everything is okay. I was greatly concerned
about him, And as I said to you, when we're competitive,
(40:00):
is out there on the field or anywhere I want
to win. But once you get off that playing field,
whether it be in public school or high school or anywhere,
there is something about life or death and health that
you have to have compassion for. And I was greatly
concerned about him. And he had given his life to
professional football, just like I have, and I wished him
(40:24):
well and I hope to God that everything goes well
for him in the future. And uh, I thought it
was normal for men to embrace at a time like that.
What is it about the Raiders? Yourself has created this,
this tremendous bond of loyalty to guys that are playing
now that that that come back that to talk about
(40:46):
the silver and black and like the two Sacs here
was going to Germany and he wanted three or four
Raiders jackets to take with. I mean, what, why, how
how has that been created or how have you established that? Well,
when I started it, I told you that I wanted
it to be different. I wanted the Raiders to be different.
I wanted when I played for the Raiders and he
war what I called the fame colors of silver and black,
(41:08):
that it would be a part of him the rest
of his life, that he would think silver and black
like some big college used to be when we're kids,
like Notre Dame used to be along those lines. And
we've been able to do it. And uh, as I
told you before, I realize that all the great players
and even those who weren't great, who made a contribution
(41:29):
to the Raiders who came before, in whose glory we
all share, and those who are gonna come on in
the future, all made this great contribution. And so I
feel that there's a debt that we owe to them,
and we can never forget that debt, and that that
there's more to life. I realized this. In my culture,
you have to win there there there is no substitute.
(41:53):
But I also realized that there's more to life than
just winning. There's there's a relationship among men, among families,
among people, and I want them to always feel that
they belong to thisganization, that that there's a certain pride,
there's a certain poison. I know it sounds corny somewhere else,
but but it's something I believe in, and it's something
that I want to happen, and I'm very thankful that
(42:15):
it has happened. I want I I can't tell you
that I might see John Madden only three times a year,
but there's a certain relationship there, a friendliness like I
see him every day and UH know him, and he
knows how I think, and we both believe in the
same things. And I just would want this organization to
(42:37):
carry on forever that way, if it's at all possible.
The last question, and we're wrapped up the legacy that
you would want to leave when when you're if you
ever retire from the game, when you're no longer part
of the game, and and your name is mentioned, I mean,
what are the things that when somebody says uh al
Davis and people are talking, and what would you want
(42:57):
them to say, or what would your like? What would
you want your legacy to be? Well, I wouldn't want
my legacy to be able to want it to be
associated with the greatest organization in professional sports, the Rates,
a standard of excellence by which all other organizations could
be measured. And then if you asked who started the
(43:21):
Raiders and who guided it and who directed it along
with the great help of people like John Madden and
Tom Flores who are my friends, and all the great players,
and how Locu Sell and my partners who were limited
partners with the Raiders, that's what I would want, I
would I would I would think that that would be
a great legacy if the Rates could end up as
(43:43):
the greatest organization and professional sports and continue that, and
that I would be associated with the the individual who
started it and who set the guidelines, and as I said,
the standard of excellence by which all of us could
be measured. Al Davis's legacy can be measured in many ways,
but loyalty has to be a top criteria, and maybe
(44:05):
that's best exemplified by the number of Hall of Fame
players whom Al presented when they were inducted. For the record,
that number is nine more than anyone else, Lance Alworth,
Jim Otto, George Blanda, Willie Brown, Gene Upshaw, Fred Blitnikoff,
Art Shell, Ted Hendrix, and John Madden. And three years
(44:29):
after this interview was conducted, Madden presented Davis at his
Hall of Fame induction in I can't imagine ending on
a stronger interview. And this is it for Tells from
the Vault. Twenty episodes just flew by. In fact, if
you missed any, please go back and listen. This has
truly been a passion project for me and and you
(44:52):
know how we talked about the flame lit in Radars Stadium. Well,
I hope that this podcast keeps alive. The brilliance of
Steve Sable, his fearlessness to ask any question, delve into
any subject, his humor and incredible inquisitiveness. The trust he
nurtured with NFL luminaries, which allowed them to open up
(45:13):
in previously unheard of ways, as we saw with Al
Davis talking about his beloved wife. Make no mistake, Steve
was the leader and the visionary of NFL Films and
no Hyperbole is hugely responsible for the success of the
league to this day. This September marks a decade since
Steve tragically died of brain cancer at only sixty nine.
(45:37):
I thank you for listening and supporting this podcast and
the legacy of Stephen Douglas Sable with tremendous gratitude to
my amazing producer, Chip Swain, and for all the terrific,
talented and dedicated folks at NFL Films. I'm Andrea Kramer.
(46:05):
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