February 6, 2025 • 31 mins
Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks kick things off with Tee Higgins confirming he wants to stay in Cincinnati. The guys break down what the Bengals need to do to keep their core intact and the key issues they must address this offseason.
Next, they give their thoughts on the Rams’ plan to trade Cooper Kupp—will any team be willing to take on his contract? Plus, they discuss Myles Garrett’s trade request and analyze what the Browns should do in response.
DJ then highlights the veteran leadership on defense for both Super Bowl teams, the Chiefs and Eagles, and explains why experienced defensive coordinators have been crucial for postseason success. The guys also look back at past teams that thrived with having experienced defensive coordinators.
Finally, Bucky spotlights standout performances from the East-West Shrine Bowl, breaking down prospects who made a lasting impression.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
What's up?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Everybody?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to move the sticks? DJ Buck with you Buck.
First of all, Man, it's been a minute. It's great
to see you, dude.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
No, it's been a minute. It's been a minutes. This
has been a two man show when she and I.
So this is great, man. We get a chance to
kind of empty the bucket a little bit, have some
thoughts on a bunch of different things that I haven't
had a chance to run by you. So it should
be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to to getting some notes from
you too on on the East West on a couple
of guys that pop down there. So we'll do that
a little bit later on in the show. I want
to start, though, with something that I read this morning
and it echoed what I had heard at the Senior bowls.
You know, everybody's always talking and there's whispers and all
this kind of stuff. But Joe Burrows making the rounds
today and said, look, I think you know we all
(00:46):
want to stay together, and that's with T Higgins and
Gasicki as free agents, you know, including getting the deal
done that they need to get done. You know, with
Jamar Chase. So that was something I had heard a
while back when I was talking about t Higgins with
the team, and you know, hey, would this makes sense
for you guys like Jiggins ain't going anywhere. It's like, look,
he got the same agent. They ended up getting together.
(01:06):
Him and Jamar have the same representation now because they
want to stay together in Cincinnati, and Cincinnati has the
cap for him to do it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So it's funny that you said. I was with Donald
Penn doing some stuff and Donald Penn s there's a
shame representation as Jamar Chase and Ti Higgins, and he
told me that they were all together, and so I
thought that was interesting because when you have guys that
played the same position on the same team, there's no
hidden negotiation, Like everyone knows exactly what is being done.
(01:35):
And if you're gonna split the baby, as they would say, like,
you now know how to make it equitable for both
parties because as an agent, you want to make sure
that both of you guys are happy. And also if
they share representation, they probably have a good relationship anyway,
and they want to make sure that their fella person
is taken care of. But they also want to make
sure they get fair market value. That is something that
(01:56):
the Cincinnati Bengals would have to negotiate. But let's be
real when it comes to this thing about Cincinnati and
what they could do, you and I and you really
have been kind of leading this this thought. You've always
said that I would rather be great on one side
of the ball and figured it out on the other
side of the ball. And so if you're the Cincinnati Bengals.
(02:19):
The one thing that we know, despite all their issues
last year, they were good enough to get into the postseason,
but they got off to a slow start. But offensively,
there are few teams that can match up with what
they have on the offense. When you talk about Higgins,
Chase Burrow, even if you throw Gaseki in there, I
would say that they were better when they had a
Marquee running back in place with Joe Mixon. But that's
(02:40):
something that they can find. Whatever Chase round is serviceable,
but they could get an upgraded that spot. But yeah,
offensively their playoff ready. Now it's about finding a defense
that's good enough to get you there. Not that you
have to be a top ten defense, but a middle
of the pack defense. That plays a certain way. I
would say if they look towards the Kansas City Chiefs,
(03:01):
that might be a way to look at how they
do it. Because before Kansas City loaded up on defense,
Seespeg Newlah was a big play, splash play defensive coordinator.
He's playing for a big play, a turnover, a stop
to throw you off your rhythm, to make you kick three,
while they had the confidence that their offense were always
going to put up seven. So yeah, look, I like
(03:21):
the plan. I like the approach if you have the
Cincinnati Bengals because in that division, you're gonna have to
be able to outscore people because it's gonna be hard
to get into a rocking SoC and robot match with
the Steelers, the Ravens, those teams, I don't know if
you're going to beat them the way that they try
and play.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, And I think it also brings up a bigger
point as well, that, man, if you're hoping that free
agency is going to solve all your problems nowadays, man,
guys just aren't getting there. You know, you're just not
going to get guys to the market. And you look
at you know, you look at the receiver class in
this free agency group not great. The draft class of
receiver position is not great. It's one of the first
(03:59):
years I can ever remember where, Man, that's not a
good year to need a receiver. No, man, they find
one under a flat rock.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, No, it's different. And I mean we went through
this run. DJ had to be about a seven eight
year run of wide receivers at the top of the
board that we were just excited about. I mean, four
to five receivers coming off the board in the first round,
and they not only came there, they hit rate was
so great on these top receivers. There was only a
handful of guys that didn't live up to pre drafted expectations.
(04:30):
Now we've kind of hit that lull and a plateau
where if you haven't developed and groomed your guys for
significant minutes or a bigger role, it's gonna be hard
to find that guy on the streets. That's why the
developmental model is so great. It's also why it's so
interesting to see the La Rams put Cooper Cup on
the market because he's the embodiment of the developmental process
(04:54):
where you take someone in the third he becomes an
all world playmaker. You get him and then as he's
this ending, you have another one that you can put there.
The money prohibits it, but in a perfect world, as
he's coming down and Puku's going up, you find a
way to keep both of them because they are interchangeable weapons.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, we haven't, we haven't been together on that. So
what's your what's your take on this situation near a
Cooper cup a. Do you think somebody would take on
the contract and actually make that trade?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, I think the injuries the last couple years, so
the last three years he's only played in thirty three games.
The money is significant. I think you're talking about twenty
six or twenty seven on.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Like a one year guaranteed that I think they're like
five minion guarantee, but there's no none guarantee. But it's
a big number overall.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, so just a big number because he signed a
three year, eighty million dollar extension. But here's what, there's
so many teams that he would be a perfect fit for.
I think about the Pittsburgh still is in how they
may need some maturity in that wide receiver room. What
he could do for them, the dependability and reliability that
he would give them, I think he fits the brand
and the culture that they have. I can see him
(05:58):
going to Kansas City much like they used Andre Hopkins
and Juju Smith Schuster. I would say that Cooper Cup
is a better player at this stage of his career
than those guys are, Like what he could be as
a security blanket a team like the Raiders that doesn't
have a true number one but needs someone to pair
up with a Brock Bowers, a mature player. Pete Carroll
has seen him in those things. There's a place for
(06:20):
him to be able to get down and play. I'm
just surprised he won't be in LA.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, it's He's very synonymous with the success they've had there,
including just a Super Bowl where he took over the
game with Matthew Stafford when everybody knew where it was
going and they couldn't stop him. I mean that was
right with the big time, big time performance by Cooper
Cup in that ballgame. Another item that we've haven't had
a chance to catch up on. We've talked about it
on here. I think we talked about with rhet but
(06:45):
I always love getting your perspective on it, s Miles Garrett.
I know it's prohibitive from a salary cap standpoint, it's
going to be tricky for Cleveland if they were to
do that, and maybe that's why they've just come flat
out and said that they won't do it. But your
thoughts on him asking for it and do you think
he eventually gets what he wants?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I felt like when I first heard about it, when
I was surprised. But two, you brought this up on
multiple occasions on the podcast. I was like, man, DJ
know something about this mouse coming down to pipe because
I was like, he has brought this up about like, hey,
maybe you should get rid of him. This is the
perfect time I'll say this. I understand, like because he
used Andrew Berry's words against him, like I didn't want
(07:25):
to take a straight pass from Cleveland to Canon. I
want to go and win some Super Bowls and those things.
And he's a foundational piece. When we talked about the
marquee pieces that you have to have in a championship puzzle,
like you look for a dominant pass rusher, and what
it shows is like man, one wrong move and a
bad move that they made with de seauan Weser. We
(07:46):
have to call it what it is, like it was
a bad move. It is completely not only wrecked the
salary cap, but I would say it probably wrecked the
chemistry in the locker room when you kind of hear
the buzz and the lay of the land. How can
they fix that, Like he's not in the building now
the injury. Is there a way that you can go
back to Miles Garrett and find a way to get
him to kind of recommit to being with the Cleveland Browns. Normally,
(08:08):
I would say money kind of fixes all things. I'm
looking at this deal. He has two years left on
his deal five year one twenty five that he signed.
Joey Bosa is now the guy that you're chasing at
thirty four million annually? Is there a way to sweeten
the spot, sweeten the pot a little bit to kind
of get him to buy in and recommit. I would
be reluctant to get rid of someone who has four
(08:30):
straight seasons with fourteen sacks. I'll be reluctant to get
rid of a four time All pro even though he's thirty.
He hasn't shown any signs of slowing down. It would
be hard for me to part ways with him. And
even when we've done this in the past, like Khalil
Mack is the comp that you would do. Like the
Raiders got back two number ones and a three and
(08:50):
some other stuff, they still were never able to replace
the player. It's hard to replace a player like that.
I just if I'm Cleveland, Yeah, an none started for me.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I think the I think the challenges, you know, But
when the Khalil Mack trade happened, they still had car right,
so they had who they had as their quarterback they
were committed to and comfortable with. I think what happens,
Buck is when you don't have the quarterback, you start
getting to the point where you're like, okay, we've had
(09:22):
We've got this Hall of Fame defensive end. We can't win.
So we got to do whatever we got to do
to figure out a way to get the quarterback. And
I personally, I think the Browns quarterback of the future
is not going to be acquired this year. I think
he's in twenty six or twenty seven, like one or
two years down the line. So the argument on the
other side of it is, man, that's just a mass
as many resources as we possibly can in twenty six
(09:43):
and twenty seven, so we can strike when we get
an opportunity to get the quarterback because even with the
Hall of Fame player like that, if we don't have
a quarterback, we're gonna have a hard time winning in
this league. And I also think there's the AFC thing
is real, man, Like there's a that's a shadow when
you got shadow of Lamar Jackson and Patrick Mahomes and
(10:03):
Joe Burrow and Josh and Justin Josh Allen. I mean, Buck,
that's a You're sitting there like, man, I'm bringing a
knife to a gunfight here, you know, Like I don't
want to be in the business of trading, you know,
first ballot, Hall of Fame players, cornerstone players. But man,
how are we ever going to get over that mountain
with all those quarterbacks, with what we're bringing to the table?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, I guess it depends on how you look at it, right,
because if you look at it in the rear view
where you just are coming off to three and fourteen year,
I could see that. But the year before they were
a playoffs like they were in the mix. Joe Flacco
had let them and put them in a position where
they could do some things. Is there a way that
you can patch work that part? But fortify the defense,
because I'll say this, the defense didn't play to the
(10:44):
level that they played previously. And it's hard when you're
not getting the offensive support. I just wondered when you're
Kevin Stefanski, because Kevin Stefanski gave up the play calling
in Ken Dorsey came in. Ken Dorsey came in specifically
to help Deshaun Watson. Dorsey's out. Fanski's back is the
play caller. Can't he say, like, hold on, let's just
(11:04):
reset and see if we can run this back? Because
it's Afanski. I think what two time coach of the
Year got them to playoff appearances without having the marquee?
Did it with Baker Mayfield, He did with Joe Flacco
and others? Why not pause and see? I know, like
the money is twenty million this year, twenty five million
the following year. I just I don't know, man, I
(11:25):
hate giving up good players just for like what could
be behind doing number two and three? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, And it's also again it's just as we go
around in circles on this one. That's also what is
it the the uh uh the definition of insanity? Right,
same thing, expect different results, like Nope, Nope, We're gonna
do it this year with our defense. We're gonna defense
is gonna take us. We don't have quarterback.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
It's funny. So then I'm saying, so I'm using the
Khalil macdial as whatever. So if you are able to
get two number ones, right, so you get another number
one this year, a number one next year.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I wouldn't even ask for another number one this year.
I want all my picks in twenty six and twenty seven,
all of them. I don't want an extra picks in
this draft. I don't. I mean, if I'm them, I'm
sitting there and saying, my ultimate goal is to get
the quarterback, and I don't. I don't love my options
in this draft. So load me up with twenty six
and twenty seven picks.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So here's here's the crazy thing, right, Like, so we're
having college football fans and we love the draft, DJ
who's the quarterback on the horizon that we're pining for?
Normally there would be buzz over a quarterback or whatever?
Like are we buzzing over arch Manning even though we've
only seen that much of them? Like, I'm trying to
figure out who is the guy that we began to
(12:37):
speculate on.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
There guys with loud tools, and I'll give you our
arch who we just seen a little bit of. But
you know, you're talking about the prototypical stuff that he has.
The kid at South Carolina is Oh Sellers standing. He
is fun like, he's He's one that I've kind of
keeping an eye on. I haven't seen time. What I've seen,
I was like, okay, and I think he's a red
shirt sophomore next year, so I think he'd be draft eligible.
But again, twenty six or twenty seven Clubnick has shown
(13:02):
some good things at Clemson. Drew Owlers had his moments
at Penn State. Who's another prototypical, big, strong dude. He
needs to, you know, keep getting better. But there's what
I'm saying is there's there's some prototypes out there, whereas
I feel like we're kind of trying and hoping and
wishing a little bit with this year's group.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a conviction. And as
we would say, a good front office, like your college
scut and director, your area scouts have bird dogs. Some
guys you know, like if you're worth of sawt, you've
already taken a look not only at disclass, but you
look ahead to see who's coming down the pipeline. And
so if we're talking about like true franchise quarterbacks on
(13:41):
the horizon, yeah, if you can have that conversation with
ownership as to why it makes sense, it can go.
I mean, look, I'll rule out nothing. Coming off a
weekend in which we saw Luka Dancis traded and in
his prime one of the best players in the NBA
at twenty five years of age, anybody can be you got.
So that's just that's the world we're living in now.
(14:03):
When it comes to sports. The things that used to
be the norm are no longer to norm when it
comes to marque players.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yep, that's a fact. All right, let's take a break.
A couple of things we want to get to. After
the break, we'll hit on some defensive coordinator thoughts as
well as we'll get some updates on Buck on a
couple of guys that popped at the East West right
after this. All right, but before we get to some
college guys, one last pro topic here. I was just
(14:32):
looking at this, thinking about this this Super Bowl with
Vic Fangio calling the defense for the Eagles and Spags
once again calling the defense for the Kansas City Chiefs.
I started thinking about the value of having that wisdom
in that game on the defensive side of the ball,
and I thought, you know what, let me go back
and look at some of these. So if you look
at the last winners Kansas City, you know, they won
(14:55):
last year with Spags, won the year before with Spags.
Then you had the Rams that won that one.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That was.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Gosh, why am I drawing a blank here? That was
Who's who was a d C? No? No, no, not in
that one. Not in the most recent one. It was Raheem.
Wasn't Raheem?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, Raheem is the one that won it?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
He yea this last year, yep. And so that was Raheem.
And then you so you know, Rahem had been around
for for a long time, around a few times, yes,
And then you go back Chiefs again, Spags. Then you
get the Belichick with with the Patriots. Then you get
Shorts with the Eagles, Belichick with the Patriots, Wade Phillips
with the Broncos Belichick, and then you get Pete Carroll.
(15:38):
You know, it's like holy cow, like you go all
the way back and it's uh there's a lot of
value in having a a guy who's been around the
block a few times and had some experiences and understands
how to coach in that game.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Well, I think so, DJ It is a game that
until you're in it, you don't really know what all
goes into it in terms of not only the preparation,
but how different it is than any other game that
you've been in. People can talk about the two weeks
that you normally have to prepare, but it's not only
the two weeks that you have to prepare where you
(16:12):
don't want to overload your players with a bunch of stuff,
but it's managing all of the distractions that comes with it.
And then when it comes to the game, it's the
game that I would say it has the biggest emotional
swings in any game that you're ever coaching because of
the finality of it and because of the stakes that
are on the line. The big plays are magnified to
(16:34):
a higher degree, so your calls have more significance than
they've ever had. So how can you calm yourself down
and not become distracted by the potential outcomes and really
focus on the process to putting your team and the
best thing. I believe it takes experience in having done
that to be comfortable in that environment, which is why
(16:56):
Steve Spagnola is so comfortable in the environment, which is
why some of these other guys being comfortable when you've
done it a few times and Spags has done it.
My gosh, how many times, like twice with the Johnson
this will beat the fifth time with the Cheese. Yah,
seven times you've been in the game, and then I
think he's been in the game before with the Eagles
as an assistant with Jim Johns. I mean, the more
(17:16):
you're in the game, the more the game slows down
and you understand what the how, the major on the
mages and not worry about all the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, I went back one extra year or two and
that was the Ravens. That was Dean P's who you know,
been around forever when they were This is kind of
funny that, like, think about all these new we have
some of young coordinators, right, and it's like, well, the
guys who are in these games that win it, they've
they're they're calm and comfortable, they've they've been in these
types of situations before. And I was thinking about this
(17:46):
with with the fangio. And there's so many articles written
in the Super Bowl, so I'm sure this has been written,
but I haven't seen it. But I was thinking of
the irony there. I believe they're practicing at the Saints facility, right.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
The old school.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, I mean you think about that, he's walking in there.
You think you want some confidence. How about just walking
in and seeing all the statues of all the dudes
you coach that don't patrol back in the day, man,
all those dudes forever. Vic has been around forever.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
He has been around forever, and I do believe and
it's easier maybe for people to buy into the experienced
defensive coordinator where you want kind of like the young
hot shot offense of mind and those things. But I
mean there is something to experience and expertise and wisdom
and being able to have seen a lot and had
(18:37):
to deal with a lot in heaven and encyclopedia of
knowledge when you're dealing with stuff, so you're able to
recall that. But like, oh, I remember this, back in
the eighties, they used to run this. We used to
have this answer and that answer or whatever. And let's
think about what some of the things that we've seen
in Super Bowls that have taken place, Bill Belichick using
an old school defense against the Rams, the stim of
(18:57):
the Rams and like a thirteen to ten win to
get it done. Being able to see what Wade Phillips
was able to throw out to kind of mess up
Cam Newton in Super Bowl fifty. Like we have seen
these old guys throw nice knuckleballs at the opposition.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Remember the Giants adult taking the ends and putting them
in over the guards, and I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, just just just doing different stuff. Because man, every
time every year you just learned so much and you're
able to apply that. There's something to watching this. This
year we actually get the luxury watching to experienced defensive
coordinators go back and forth and how they're going to
navigate it. I would say the difference with Fangio is
(19:40):
he has a younger team. But to me, that's the
quality of the coaching because the coach, how can you
get younger players to buy into maybe something that is complex.
We saw Spags do it a couple of years ago
with the kN City Chiefs when they had all those
young hoppers running around on defense. So it's the same
thing to me, there is something about that which is look, man,
(20:06):
maybe that's why we saw a little bit of a
renaissance with Pete Carroll and some of the older guys
getting significant opportunities.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You know, Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. All right, Buck,
We are going to switch gears though real quick. Going
to get into some college stuff here because it's time
for Hot or Not, brought to you by Wasabi Hot
Cloud Storage. Haven't had a chance to catch up with
you since East West, and I know, talking to some
other buddies that had made the trek from East West
to Senior, heard some names of some guys who popped.
(20:32):
But just you your experience down there, can you give
me a couple of dudes that I need to put
towards the top of the list I need to get watched.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, guys that you want to watch. And obviously we
started at quarterback. Everyone to talk about Shadrew Sander's but
Shadrius Sandas didn't work out. He just interviewed cal McCord.
Was the guy Calvi McCord from Syracuse who had transferred
from Ohio State. Has a phenomenal final season in Syracuse,
like he lit it up doing practices. What you saw
was a guy who came out as a four star,
(20:59):
five star quarterback. You saw the tools, you saw the talent,
you saw the touch, timing, anticipation. You saw him make
big boy throws. And what you also saw was someone
who you could squint and close your eyes and see
a top one hundred player in a game in which
we've seen Brock Purdy and Aidan O'Connell use that game
to step up. Cal McCord didn't play in the game,
but the week of practices should make him a very
(21:21):
interesting guy as like a mid round selection. You know,
I would say DJ stand on offense at running back
Todds Brooks from Texas Tech with someone that kind of
stood out five nine, two hundred and thirty pounds stop
start quickness. Burst can kind of run it like a pounder,
but has some speed to get to the outside. Like
(21:43):
he was interesting. There were some other guys that you
liked on offense. There was a bunch of wide receivers,
but like Aaronde Gatson, his son of Aronn Gason played
stood out at tight end. Those things. But I would
say the best players on the defense side of the
ball and Kansas cornerback Kobe Bryant was someone that they
(22:05):
talked about. And it's funny, Kobe Bryant, if he had
more size on him, you would really like him. But
he's only one hundred and seventy five pounds, and so
people worry about the Emanuel Forbes thing. But what I
saw is someone who could do some of the Jalen Ramsey,
the physical stuff or whatever. You just worry about his
size and then I would stay up front. Jordan Phillis
(22:27):
from Maryland.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, that's the one that I heard the most about
the whole week.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
He's the guy man like, he's the guy three hundred
and twenty pounds. I got a chance to stand with
Mike Loxley like the entire practice day, and he just
talked about the dude is wired right, great effort, great motor,
yes or noser type, just loves ball. And when you
saw him, man, you just don't see guys built like that.
Like he was a well put together three hundred and
(22:52):
twenty pounds. He was playing the three technique, but you
could see him being a very active nose tackle if
you had to use him there. He was just really
good man, really good with his hands, all of that.
He was outstanding the entire week.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yep, that's the that was the name that just came
up a bunch of times. Out of there guy said, Oh, okay,
you need to you need to watch him. He's a really,
really good football player. I heard just through the grape
vine that the interviews with Shooter Or went well. Everybody
that I talked to that you know, had visited with
him enjoyed their time with him. So, I mean, obviously
didn't do anything at the at the game, which I
(23:25):
don't think anyboy anticipated he would, but they did. They
said they got the vibe from visiting with him as
somebody that really really loved football.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah. No, so it was interesting, right, and maybe this
is just a coach putting chum in the water. I
thought about Brian Callahan, who had coached Joe Burrow doing Cincinnati,
made loose comparisons between Shadur Sanders and Joe Burrow, And
if you want to read about it, there's an article
on ESPN to Ron Davin Fork kind of outlines what
(23:53):
Brian Callahan said, but insummation, he basically said, like, look,
he's a touch time and an anticipation quarterback, and much
like Joe Burrow, who may not have the strongest arm.
When you have touch, timing and anticipation, it allows you
to kind of mask some of those deficiencies. And he
basically alluded to the fact that like Burrow, he can
be a point guard in the right system where if
(24:14):
you're just like, hey, ball out, he can play when
it comes to that, get the ball out of his hands,
let him go to work and operate and doesn't mean anything.
It might have been one of those things that when
you're holding the number one pick, you're trying to entice
conversation in people to get up. But Brian Callahan put
it out there, and I thought it was an interesting thought.
When we think about quarterbacks and the things that are necessary,
(24:35):
it always comes down to decision making, accuracy, and ball placement.
And he's really raving about Shahdur Sanders' things, and he
made those loose comparisons to Joe Burrow, which I think
is a very interesting thing to just kind of put
it in our back pocket as we get ready to watch
him throw potentially at the combine.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, I think you kind of squint and you can
see that the anticipation accuracy part one thousand percent, like
or that's what he does really really well. He's especially
when he's clean in the pocket, feet in the ground, anticipation, accuracy, outstanding, which,
as you mentioned, are key key elements playing the position.
Now he's smaller than Burrow, I don't think he's as
(25:12):
twitchy as Burrow.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Definite, he doesn't have He doesn't have a diference this. Yeah, yeah,
because Burrow was All state high school basketball player. The
athleticism go out. You also see the basketball skills come
out when he's he's destriying, but he likes to go empty.
He is a pass first point guard. He gets into
(25:34):
his playmakers and let them go to work. Not quite
as quick or as distinct when it comes to chadur Uh.
I just thought it was interesting when we talked about talent,
because everyone is going to have the conversation, Hey, Kim
Wore's tools. Yeah, the charts, the tools are legit, they're real.
The decision making is more of a gunslinger than someone
(25:54):
that's gonna kind of play and manage the game maybe
the way that you you want consistently, But I'm which
are you willing to bank on being able to refine
it and harness that versus someone who doesn't have the
arm talent, but maybe he has the decision making and
the anticipation in time and that you wanted the offense.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, and that's that's a debate that's gonna take place
in the draft room, is can we can we rein
in cam Ward a little bit and still get the
benefit to reap the rewards of all the arm talent
and the you know, the suddenness and the way that
he can, you know, make some special things happen. Can
we rain that in or then on the should or side, well,
can we can we get him a little stronger? You know?
(26:32):
Can we you know it's like that's the conversation that's
going to be gone.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah. And another thing that's gonna be going because we
haven't had a had we haven't had the conversation, but
I guess we can say this, like Jackson Dart had
been the building, so we had a chance to talk
to him and those things. And there's been a lot
of conversation about QB two, QB three, Jackson Dart or
whoever the field because everyone has always talked about cam
Wood and Shaduer Sanders. But we've been in this long
(26:57):
enough to know, Yeah, who's the dark horse that we're
not paying attention to. Yeah, one day can get into conversation.
So studying Jackson Dart, you were there at the Senior Bowl,
he is intriguing. Talking to Jackson Dart, the intrigue grows.
What was your like take on what he did down
in Mobile and how does he just kind of loosely
factor into the conversation as we're talking about quarterbacks in
(27:20):
his class.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I would say it was like a solid week. He
you know, he got a little bit better every day.
I didn't come out of that with a hot or
cold take on it. You know, I didn't come out
of there saying, man, he lit it up like we've seen,
you know, a couple of guys light it up. And
I didn't come out of there saying, man, he really
hurt himself with the way he's performed. I just thought
he got a little bit better every week. He's he's big,
(27:41):
he's sturdy, he can move around. He moved around the game,
had a rushing touchdown something He's done a lot there
at Old Mess and everybody seemed to enjoy their time
with him, like we enjoyed, you know, getting a chance
to visit with him. He's a really good dude. So
I was doing an interview of the day with the
Seattle Radio and like that name's discussion there they're picking eighteen.
(28:02):
Now he's my forty first player. But again in this draft,
I don't know there's much difference between eighteen and fifty.
To be honest with you, I got the same. Like
our grade system is like a six to three. I've
got six threes basically starting it around that range, and
it goes all the way in the fifties. So it's
just you're stacking them however you prefer them. But grade wise,
talent wise, they're all in one big pile together. So
(28:22):
that's why I think you're gonna see one of these
other quarterbacks is going to emerge. You're right, it's gonna
be him you're talking, or it's gonna be you know,
Will Howard's got some sponsors for the way he finished
up winning a national championship. No, Roe's got some loud tools.
But you know, he was all kind of all over
the place down there at the Senior Bowl. Dylan Gabriel
is kind of I mean, everybody's like, oh, you know,
is he going to get drafted? I'm like, guys like
(28:44):
if you put him in a dome, like you put
him in the NFC South, He's not that much different
than Tua. Like there, you can you can see a
lot of similarities there. I know if I was Miami
and if he was hanging around there in the middle rounds, shoot,
I'd take him just as my two insurance because I
don't have to change anything on my offense.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, no, I mean so it's look, man, beauty is
always an eye of the beholder. And when you're talking
about quarterbacks and the number of teams that need quarterbacks
and the number teams that are gonna be boxed out
when it comes to free agency, those guys are going
to be in the conversation, maybe a little sooner than
many people think. And when you're talking about like the
(29:21):
next tier of quarterbacks, right like if we just say
that Kim Ward and Shoulder centers in a different tier.
But like those guys vying for three or maybe even two,
some names are gonna come up. And Jackson Dart to me,
I wouldn't say it's the safest, but he's the most
logical that would come up. And the reason why I
would say is like he goes from sc to ole
(29:41):
Miss and even though the system is not a pro
style system, it marries a bunch of things that we
see on Sundays. You think about the level of experience,
You think about like I think now we are all
looking for the guy who's had to kind of go
through some stuff from almost side. He has some of that,
And to me, he's not as big of a project
(30:03):
as Jalen mill Roe could be in certain offenses. So
to me, he's kind of like a natural and logical
fit as the third or whatever. Will Howard certainly got
hot down to stretch with man. I still have like
the Michigan game where he didn't play rate and that
hanging like they're gonna be people to try and push
cal McCord into the thing, But then I'm gonna have
(30:25):
the whole year of Ohio State, the last year where
they pushed him out. He goes so there. Look, they're
gonna be things on every quarterback, even the ward and
to do so, it's going to be fascinating to have
the conversations as we get into the combine and then
the workouts, and then as what I would say is
a bad thing when when when think tank takes over,
(30:48):
who is going to be able to stand on conviction
and say, hey man, I feel really good about this
quarterback and we can build something out for him to
thrive in because I still remember there weren't a whole
lot of people that were had on bonnecks and bownicks
gets into the league and they're like, oh man, well
pay I'm like yeah, yeah, for everybody. It's so many
factors that go with where the guy can succeed a
(31:08):
fill in the league. Yep.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's going to be part of the discussion here for
the next several months as we get towards the draft.
All right, that's gonna do it for us. Today, we
will have a short one. We got a short podcoming
your way tomorrow as we head towards Super Bowl Sunday,
and we'll have all the recap stuff for you beginning
early next week as we full on transition into the offseason, draft,
free agency, all that good stuff. So appreciate you guys
(31:31):
hanging with U. See next time right here on with
the sticks
And now move the sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
What's up?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Everybody?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to move the sticks? DJ Buck with you Buck.
First of all, Man, it's been a minute. It's great
to see you, dude.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
No, it's been a minute. It's been a minutes. This
has been a two man show when she and I.
So this is great, man. We get a chance to
kind of empty the bucket a little bit, have some
thoughts on a bunch of different things that I haven't
had a chance to run by you. So it should
be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to to getting some notes from
you too on on the East West on a couple
of guys that pop down there. So we'll do that
a little bit later on in the show. I want
to start, though, with something that I read this morning
and it echoed what I had heard at the Senior bowls.
You know, everybody's always talking and there's whispers and all
this kind of stuff. But Joe Burrows making the rounds
today and said, look, I think you know we all
(00:46):
want to stay together, and that's with T Higgins and
Gasicki as free agents, you know, including getting the deal
done that they need to get done. You know, with
Jamar Chase. So that was something I had heard a
while back when I was talking about t Higgins with
the team, and you know, hey, would this makes sense
for you guys like Jiggins ain't going anywhere. It's like, look,
he got the same agent. They ended up getting together.
(01:06):
Him and Jamar have the same representation now because they
want to stay together in Cincinnati, and Cincinnati has the
cap for him to do it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So it's funny that you said. I was with Donald
Penn doing some stuff and Donald Penn s there's a
shame representation as Jamar Chase and Ti Higgins, and he
told me that they were all together, and so I
thought that was interesting because when you have guys that
played the same position on the same team, there's no
hidden negotiation, Like everyone knows exactly what is being done.
(01:35):
And if you're gonna split the baby, as they would say, like,
you now know how to make it equitable for both
parties because as an agent, you want to make sure
that both of you guys are happy. And also if
they share representation, they probably have a good relationship anyway,
and they want to make sure that their fella person
is taken care of. But they also want to make
sure they get fair market value. That is something that
(01:56):
the Cincinnati Bengals would have to negotiate. But let's be
real when it comes to this thing about Cincinnati and
what they could do, you and I and you really
have been kind of leading this this thought. You've always
said that I would rather be great on one side
of the ball and figured it out on the other
side of the ball. And so if you're the Cincinnati Bengals.
(02:19):
The one thing that we know, despite all their issues
last year, they were good enough to get into the postseason,
but they got off to a slow start. But offensively,
there are few teams that can match up with what
they have on the offense. When you talk about Higgins,
Chase Burrow, even if you throw Gaseki in there, I
would say that they were better when they had a
Marquee running back in place with Joe Mixon. But that's
(02:40):
something that they can find. Whatever Chase round is serviceable,
but they could get an upgraded that spot. But yeah,
offensively their playoff ready. Now it's about finding a defense
that's good enough to get you there. Not that you
have to be a top ten defense, but a middle
of the pack defense. That plays a certain way. I
would say if they look towards the Kansas City Chiefs,
(03:01):
that might be a way to look at how they
do it. Because before Kansas City loaded up on defense,
Seespeg Newlah was a big play, splash play defensive coordinator.
He's playing for a big play, a turnover, a stop
to throw you off your rhythm, to make you kick three,
while they had the confidence that their offense were always
going to put up seven. So yeah, look, I like
(03:21):
the plan. I like the approach if you have the
Cincinnati Bengals because in that division, you're gonna have to
be able to outscore people because it's gonna be hard
to get into a rocking SoC and robot match with
the Steelers, the Ravens, those teams, I don't know if
you're going to beat them the way that they try
and play.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, And I think it also brings up a bigger
point as well, that, man, if you're hoping that free
agency is going to solve all your problems nowadays, man,
guys just aren't getting there. You know, you're just not
going to get guys to the market. And you look
at you know, you look at the receiver class in
this free agency group not great. The draft class of
receiver position is not great. It's one of the first
(03:59):
years I can ever remember where, Man, that's not a
good year to need a receiver. No, man, they find
one under a flat rock.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, No, it's different. And I mean we went through
this run. DJ had to be about a seven eight
year run of wide receivers at the top of the
board that we were just excited about. I mean, four
to five receivers coming off the board in the first round,
and they not only came there, they hit rate was
so great on these top receivers. There was only a
handful of guys that didn't live up to pre drafted expectations.
(04:30):
Now we've kind of hit that lull and a plateau
where if you haven't developed and groomed your guys for
significant minutes or a bigger role, it's gonna be hard
to find that guy on the streets. That's why the
developmental model is so great. It's also why it's so
interesting to see the La Rams put Cooper Cup on
the market because he's the embodiment of the developmental process
(04:54):
where you take someone in the third he becomes an
all world playmaker. You get him and then as he's
this ending, you have another one that you can put there.
The money prohibits it, but in a perfect world, as
he's coming down and Puku's going up, you find a
way to keep both of them because they are interchangeable weapons.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, we haven't, we haven't been together on that. So
what's your what's your take on this situation near a
Cooper cup a. Do you think somebody would take on
the contract and actually make that trade?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, I think the injuries the last couple years, so
the last three years he's only played in thirty three games.
The money is significant. I think you're talking about twenty
six or twenty seven on.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Like a one year guaranteed that I think they're like
five minion guarantee, but there's no none guarantee. But it's
a big number overall.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, so just a big number because he signed a
three year, eighty million dollar extension. But here's what, there's
so many teams that he would be a perfect fit for.
I think about the Pittsburgh still is in how they
may need some maturity in that wide receiver room. What
he could do for them, the dependability and reliability that
he would give them, I think he fits the brand
and the culture that they have. I can see him
(05:58):
going to Kansas City much like they used Andre Hopkins
and Juju Smith Schuster. I would say that Cooper Cup
is a better player at this stage of his career
than those guys are, Like what he could be as
a security blanket a team like the Raiders that doesn't
have a true number one but needs someone to pair
up with a Brock Bowers, a mature player. Pete Carroll
has seen him in those things. There's a place for
(06:20):
him to be able to get down and play. I'm
just surprised he won't be in LA.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, it's He's very synonymous with the success they've had there,
including just a Super Bowl where he took over the
game with Matthew Stafford when everybody knew where it was
going and they couldn't stop him. I mean that was
right with the big time, big time performance by Cooper
Cup in that ballgame. Another item that we've haven't had
a chance to catch up on. We've talked about it
on here. I think we talked about with rhet but
(06:45):
I always love getting your perspective on it, s Miles Garrett.
I know it's prohibitive from a salary cap standpoint, it's
going to be tricky for Cleveland if they were to
do that, and maybe that's why they've just come flat
out and said that they won't do it. But your
thoughts on him asking for it and do you think
he eventually gets what he wants?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I felt like when I first heard about it, when
I was surprised. But two, you brought this up on
multiple occasions on the podcast. I was like, man, DJ
know something about this mouse coming down to pipe because
I was like, he has brought this up about like, hey,
maybe you should get rid of him. This is the
perfect time I'll say this. I understand, like because he
used Andrew Berry's words against him, like I didn't want
(07:25):
to take a straight pass from Cleveland to Canon. I
want to go and win some Super Bowls and those things.
And he's a foundational piece. When we talked about the
marquee pieces that you have to have in a championship puzzle,
like you look for a dominant pass rusher, and what
it shows is like man, one wrong move and a
bad move that they made with de seauan Weser. We
(07:46):
have to call it what it is, like it was
a bad move. It is completely not only wrecked the
salary cap, but I would say it probably wrecked the
chemistry in the locker room when you kind of hear
the buzz and the lay of the land. How can
they fix that, Like he's not in the building now
the injury. Is there a way that you can go
back to Miles Garrett and find a way to get
him to kind of recommit to being with the Cleveland Browns. Normally,
(08:08):
I would say money kind of fixes all things. I'm
looking at this deal. He has two years left on
his deal five year one twenty five that he signed.
Joey Bosa is now the guy that you're chasing at
thirty four million annually? Is there a way to sweeten
the spot, sweeten the pot a little bit to kind
of get him to buy in and recommit. I would
be reluctant to get rid of someone who has four
(08:30):
straight seasons with fourteen sacks. I'll be reluctant to get
rid of a four time All pro even though he's thirty.
He hasn't shown any signs of slowing down. It would
be hard for me to part ways with him. And
even when we've done this in the past, like Khalil
Mack is the comp that you would do. Like the
Raiders got back two number ones and a three and
(08:50):
some other stuff, they still were never able to replace
the player. It's hard to replace a player like that.
I just if I'm Cleveland, Yeah, an none started for me.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I think the I think the challenges, you know, But
when the Khalil Mack trade happened, they still had car right,
so they had who they had as their quarterback they
were committed to and comfortable with. I think what happens,
Buck is when you don't have the quarterback, you start
getting to the point where you're like, okay, we've had
(09:22):
We've got this Hall of Fame defensive end. We can't win.
So we got to do whatever we got to do
to figure out a way to get the quarterback. And
I personally, I think the Browns quarterback of the future
is not going to be acquired this year. I think
he's in twenty six or twenty seven, like one or
two years down the line. So the argument on the
other side of it is, man, that's just a mass
as many resources as we possibly can in twenty six
(09:43):
and twenty seven, so we can strike when we get
an opportunity to get the quarterback because even with the
Hall of Fame player like that, if we don't have
a quarterback, we're gonna have a hard time winning in
this league. And I also think there's the AFC thing
is real, man, Like there's a that's a shadow when
you got shadow of Lamar Jackson and Patrick Mahomes and
(10:03):
Joe Burrow and Josh and Justin Josh Allen. I mean, Buck,
that's a You're sitting there like, man, I'm bringing a
knife to a gunfight here, you know, Like I don't
want to be in the business of trading, you know,
first ballot, Hall of Fame players, cornerstone players. But man,
how are we ever going to get over that mountain
with all those quarterbacks, with what we're bringing to the table?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, I guess it depends on how you look at it, right,
because if you look at it in the rear view
where you just are coming off to three and fourteen year,
I could see that. But the year before they were
a playoffs like they were in the mix. Joe Flacco
had let them and put them in a position where
they could do some things. Is there a way that
you can patch work that part? But fortify the defense,
because I'll say this, the defense didn't play to the
(10:44):
level that they played previously. And it's hard when you're
not getting the offensive support. I just wondered when you're
Kevin Stefanski, because Kevin Stefanski gave up the play calling
in Ken Dorsey came in. Ken Dorsey came in specifically
to help Deshaun Watson. Dorsey's out. Fanski's back is the
play caller. Can't he say, like, hold on, let's just
(11:04):
reset and see if we can run this back? Because
it's Afanski. I think what two time coach of the
Year got them to playoff appearances without having the marquee?
Did it with Baker Mayfield, He did with Joe Flacco
and others? Why not pause and see? I know, like
the money is twenty million this year, twenty five million
the following year. I just I don't know, man, I
(11:25):
hate giving up good players just for like what could
be behind doing number two and three? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, And it's also again it's just as we go
around in circles on this one. That's also what is
it the the uh uh the definition of insanity? Right,
same thing, expect different results, like Nope, Nope, We're gonna
do it this year with our defense. We're gonna defense
is gonna take us. We don't have quarterback.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
It's funny. So then I'm saying, so I'm using the
Khalil macdial as whatever. So if you are able to
get two number ones, right, so you get another number
one this year, a number one next year.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I wouldn't even ask for another number one this year.
I want all my picks in twenty six and twenty seven,
all of them. I don't want an extra picks in
this draft. I don't. I mean, if I'm them, I'm
sitting there and saying, my ultimate goal is to get
the quarterback, and I don't. I don't love my options
in this draft. So load me up with twenty six
and twenty seven picks.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So here's here's the crazy thing, right, Like, so we're
having college football fans and we love the draft, DJ
who's the quarterback on the horizon that we're pining for?
Normally there would be buzz over a quarterback or whatever?
Like are we buzzing over arch Manning even though we've
only seen that much of them? Like, I'm trying to
figure out who is the guy that we began to
(12:37):
speculate on.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
There guys with loud tools, and I'll give you our
arch who we just seen a little bit of. But
you know, you're talking about the prototypical stuff that he has.
The kid at South Carolina is Oh Sellers standing. He
is fun like, he's He's one that I've kind of
keeping an eye on. I haven't seen time. What I've seen,
I was like, okay, and I think he's a red
shirt sophomore next year, so I think he'd be draft eligible.
But again, twenty six or twenty seven Clubnick has shown
(13:02):
some good things at Clemson. Drew Owlers had his moments
at Penn State. Who's another prototypical, big, strong dude. He
needs to, you know, keep getting better. But there's what
I'm saying is there's there's some prototypes out there, whereas
I feel like we're kind of trying and hoping and
wishing a little bit with this year's group.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a conviction. And as
we would say, a good front office, like your college
scut and director, your area scouts have bird dogs. Some
guys you know, like if you're worth of sawt, you've
already taken a look not only at disclass, but you
look ahead to see who's coming down the pipeline. And
so if we're talking about like true franchise quarterbacks on
(13:41):
the horizon, yeah, if you can have that conversation with
ownership as to why it makes sense, it can go.
I mean, look, I'll rule out nothing. Coming off a
weekend in which we saw Luka Dancis traded and in
his prime one of the best players in the NBA
at twenty five years of age, anybody can be you got.
So that's just that's the world we're living in now.
(14:03):
When it comes to sports. The things that used to
be the norm are no longer to norm when it
comes to marque players.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yep, that's a fact. All right, let's take a break.
A couple of things we want to get to. After
the break, we'll hit on some defensive coordinator thoughts as
well as we'll get some updates on Buck on a
couple of guys that popped at the East West right
after this. All right, but before we get to some
college guys, one last pro topic here. I was just
(14:32):
looking at this, thinking about this this Super Bowl with
Vic Fangio calling the defense for the Eagles and Spags
once again calling the defense for the Kansas City Chiefs.
I started thinking about the value of having that wisdom
in that game on the defensive side of the ball,
and I thought, you know what, let me go back
and look at some of these. So if you look
at the last winners Kansas City, you know, they won
(14:55):
last year with Spags, won the year before with Spags.
Then you had the Rams that won that one.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That was.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Gosh, why am I drawing a blank here? That was
Who's who was a d C? No? No, no, not in
that one. Not in the most recent one. It was Raheem.
Wasn't Raheem?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, Raheem is the one that won it?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
He yea this last year, yep. And so that was Raheem.
And then you so you know, Rahem had been around
for for a long time, around a few times, yes,
And then you go back Chiefs again, Spags. Then you
get the Belichick with with the Patriots. Then you get
Shorts with the Eagles, Belichick with the Patriots, Wade Phillips
with the Broncos Belichick, and then you get Pete Carroll.
(15:38):
You know, it's like holy cow, like you go all
the way back and it's uh there's a lot of
value in having a a guy who's been around the
block a few times and had some experiences and understands
how to coach in that game.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Well, I think so, DJ It is a game that
until you're in it, you don't really know what all
goes into it in terms of not only the preparation,
but how different it is than any other game that
you've been in. People can talk about the two weeks
that you normally have to prepare, but it's not only
the two weeks that you have to prepare where you
(16:12):
don't want to overload your players with a bunch of stuff,
but it's managing all of the distractions that comes with it.
And then when it comes to the game, it's the
game that I would say it has the biggest emotional
swings in any game that you're ever coaching because of
the finality of it and because of the stakes that
are on the line. The big plays are magnified to
(16:34):
a higher degree, so your calls have more significance than
they've ever had. So how can you calm yourself down
and not become distracted by the potential outcomes and really
focus on the process to putting your team and the
best thing. I believe it takes experience in having done
that to be comfortable in that environment, which is why
(16:56):
Steve Spagnola is so comfortable in the environment, which is
why some of these other guys being comfortable when you've
done it a few times and Spags has done it.
My gosh, how many times, like twice with the Johnson
this will beat the fifth time with the Cheese. Yah,
seven times you've been in the game, and then I
think he's been in the game before with the Eagles
as an assistant with Jim Johns. I mean, the more
(17:16):
you're in the game, the more the game slows down
and you understand what the how, the major on the
mages and not worry about all the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, I went back one extra year or two and
that was the Ravens. That was Dean P's who you know,
been around forever when they were This is kind of
funny that, like, think about all these new we have
some of young coordinators, right, and it's like, well, the
guys who are in these games that win it, they've
they're they're calm and comfortable, they've they've been in these
types of situations before. And I was thinking about this
(17:46):
with with the fangio. And there's so many articles written
in the Super Bowl, so I'm sure this has been written,
but I haven't seen it. But I was thinking of
the irony there. I believe they're practicing at the Saints facility, right.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
The old school.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, I mean you think about that, he's walking in there.
You think you want some confidence. How about just walking
in and seeing all the statues of all the dudes
you coach that don't patrol back in the day, man,
all those dudes forever. Vic has been around forever.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
He has been around forever, and I do believe and
it's easier maybe for people to buy into the experienced
defensive coordinator where you want kind of like the young
hot shot offense of mind and those things. But I
mean there is something to experience and expertise and wisdom
and being able to have seen a lot and had
(18:37):
to deal with a lot in heaven and encyclopedia of
knowledge when you're dealing with stuff, so you're able to
recall that. But like, oh, I remember this, back in
the eighties, they used to run this. We used to
have this answer and that answer or whatever. And let's
think about what some of the things that we've seen
in Super Bowls that have taken place, Bill Belichick using
an old school defense against the Rams, the stim of
(18:57):
the Rams and like a thirteen to ten win to
get it done. Being able to see what Wade Phillips
was able to throw out to kind of mess up
Cam Newton in Super Bowl fifty. Like we have seen
these old guys throw nice knuckleballs at the opposition.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Remember the Giants adult taking the ends and putting them
in over the guards, and I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, just just just doing different stuff. Because man, every
time every year you just learned so much and you're
able to apply that. There's something to watching this. This
year we actually get the luxury watching to experienced defensive
coordinators go back and forth and how they're going to
navigate it. I would say the difference with Fangio is
(19:40):
he has a younger team. But to me, that's the
quality of the coaching because the coach, how can you
get younger players to buy into maybe something that is complex.
We saw Spags do it a couple of years ago
with the kN City Chiefs when they had all those
young hoppers running around on defense. So it's the same
thing to me, there is something about that which is look, man,
(20:06):
maybe that's why we saw a little bit of a
renaissance with Pete Carroll and some of the older guys
getting significant opportunities.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You know, Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. All right, Buck,
We are going to switch gears though real quick. Going
to get into some college stuff here because it's time
for Hot or Not, brought to you by Wasabi Hot
Cloud Storage. Haven't had a chance to catch up with
you since East West, and I know, talking to some
other buddies that had made the trek from East West
to Senior, heard some names of some guys who popped.
(20:32):
But just you your experience down there, can you give
me a couple of dudes that I need to put
towards the top of the list I need to get watched.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, guys that you want to watch. And obviously we
started at quarterback. Everyone to talk about Shadrew Sander's but
Shadrius Sandas didn't work out. He just interviewed cal McCord.
Was the guy Calvi McCord from Syracuse who had transferred
from Ohio State. Has a phenomenal final season in Syracuse,
like he lit it up doing practices. What you saw
was a guy who came out as a four star,
(20:59):
five star quarterback. You saw the tools, you saw the talent,
you saw the touch, timing, anticipation. You saw him make
big boy throws. And what you also saw was someone
who you could squint and close your eyes and see
a top one hundred player in a game in which
we've seen Brock Purdy and Aidan O'Connell use that game
to step up. Cal McCord didn't play in the game,
but the week of practices should make him a very
(21:21):
interesting guy as like a mid round selection. You know,
I would say DJ stand on offense at running back
Todds Brooks from Texas Tech with someone that kind of
stood out five nine, two hundred and thirty pounds stop
start quickness. Burst can kind of run it like a pounder,
but has some speed to get to the outside. Like
(21:43):
he was interesting. There were some other guys that you
liked on offense. There was a bunch of wide receivers,
but like Aaronde Gatson, his son of Aronn Gason played
stood out at tight end. Those things. But I would
say the best players on the defense side of the
ball and Kansas cornerback Kobe Bryant was someone that they
(22:05):
talked about. And it's funny, Kobe Bryant, if he had
more size on him, you would really like him. But
he's only one hundred and seventy five pounds, and so
people worry about the Emanuel Forbes thing. But what I
saw is someone who could do some of the Jalen Ramsey,
the physical stuff or whatever. You just worry about his
size and then I would stay up front. Jordan Phillis
(22:27):
from Maryland.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, that's the one that I heard the most about
the whole week.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
He's the guy man like, he's the guy three hundred
and twenty pounds. I got a chance to stand with
Mike Loxley like the entire practice day, and he just
talked about the dude is wired right, great effort, great motor,
yes or noser type, just loves ball. And when you
saw him, man, you just don't see guys built like that.
Like he was a well put together three hundred and
(22:52):
twenty pounds. He was playing the three technique, but you
could see him being a very active nose tackle if
you had to use him there. He was just really
good man, really good with his hands, all of that.
He was outstanding the entire week.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yep, that's the that was the name that just came
up a bunch of times. Out of there guy said, Oh, okay,
you need to you need to watch him. He's a really,
really good football player. I heard just through the grape
vine that the interviews with Shooter Or went well. Everybody
that I talked to that you know, had visited with
him enjoyed their time with him. So, I mean, obviously
didn't do anything at the at the game, which I
(23:25):
don't think anyboy anticipated he would, but they did. They
said they got the vibe from visiting with him as
somebody that really really loved football.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah. No, so it was interesting, right, and maybe this
is just a coach putting chum in the water. I
thought about Brian Callahan, who had coached Joe Burrow doing Cincinnati,
made loose comparisons between Shadur Sanders and Joe Burrow, And
if you want to read about it, there's an article
on ESPN to Ron Davin Fork kind of outlines what
(23:53):
Brian Callahan said, but insummation, he basically said, like, look,
he's a touch time and an anticipation quarterback, and much
like Joe Burrow, who may not have the strongest arm.
When you have touch, timing and anticipation, it allows you
to kind of mask some of those deficiencies. And he
basically alluded to the fact that like Burrow, he can
be a point guard in the right system where if
(24:14):
you're just like, hey, ball out, he can play when
it comes to that, get the ball out of his hands,
let him go to work and operate and doesn't mean anything.
It might have been one of those things that when
you're holding the number one pick, you're trying to entice
conversation in people to get up. But Brian Callahan put
it out there, and I thought it was an interesting thought.
When we think about quarterbacks and the things that are necessary,
(24:35):
it always comes down to decision making, accuracy, and ball placement.
And he's really raving about Shahdur Sanders' things, and he
made those loose comparisons to Joe Burrow, which I think
is a very interesting thing to just kind of put
it in our back pocket as we get ready to watch
him throw potentially at the combine.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, I think you kind of squint and you can
see that the anticipation accuracy part one thousand percent, like
or that's what he does really really well. He's especially
when he's clean in the pocket, feet in the ground, anticipation, accuracy, outstanding, which,
as you mentioned, are key key elements playing the position.
Now he's smaller than Burrow, I don't think he's as
(25:12):
twitchy as Burrow.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Definite, he doesn't have He doesn't have a diference this. Yeah, yeah,
because Burrow was All state high school basketball player. The
athleticism go out. You also see the basketball skills come
out when he's he's destriying, but he likes to go empty.
He is a pass first point guard. He gets into
(25:34):
his playmakers and let them go to work. Not quite
as quick or as distinct when it comes to chadur Uh.
I just thought it was interesting when we talked about talent,
because everyone is going to have the conversation, Hey, Kim
Wore's tools. Yeah, the charts, the tools are legit, they're real.
The decision making is more of a gunslinger than someone
(25:54):
that's gonna kind of play and manage the game maybe
the way that you you want consistently, But I'm which
are you willing to bank on being able to refine
it and harness that versus someone who doesn't have the
arm talent, but maybe he has the decision making and
the anticipation in time and that you wanted the offense.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, and that's that's a debate that's gonna take place
in the draft room, is can we can we rein
in cam Ward a little bit and still get the
benefit to reap the rewards of all the arm talent
and the you know, the suddenness and the way that
he can, you know, make some special things happen. Can
we rain that in or then on the should or side, well,
can we can we get him a little stronger? You know?
(26:32):
Can we you know it's like that's the conversation that's
going to be gone.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah. And another thing that's gonna be going because we
haven't had a had we haven't had the conversation, but
I guess we can say this, like Jackson Dart had
been the building, so we had a chance to talk
to him and those things. And there's been a lot
of conversation about QB two, QB three, Jackson Dart or
whoever the field because everyone has always talked about cam
Wood and Shaduer Sanders. But we've been in this long
(26:57):
enough to know, Yeah, who's the dark horse that we're
not paying attention to. Yeah, one day can get into conversation.
So studying Jackson Dart, you were there at the Senior Bowl,
he is intriguing. Talking to Jackson Dart, the intrigue grows.
What was your like take on what he did down
in Mobile and how does he just kind of loosely
factor into the conversation as we're talking about quarterbacks in
(27:20):
his class.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I would say it was like a solid week. He
you know, he got a little bit better every day.
I didn't come out of that with a hot or
cold take on it. You know, I didn't come out
of there saying, man, he lit it up like we've seen,
you know, a couple of guys light it up. And
I didn't come out of there saying, man, he really
hurt himself with the way he's performed. I just thought
he got a little bit better every week. He's he's big,
(27:41):
he's sturdy, he can move around. He moved around the game,
had a rushing touchdown something He's done a lot there
at Old Mess and everybody seemed to enjoy their time
with him, like we enjoyed, you know, getting a chance
to visit with him. He's a really good dude. So
I was doing an interview of the day with the
Seattle Radio and like that name's discussion there they're picking eighteen.
(28:02):
Now he's my forty first player. But again in this draft,
I don't know there's much difference between eighteen and fifty.
To be honest with you, I got the same. Like
our grade system is like a six to three. I've
got six threes basically starting it around that range, and
it goes all the way in the fifties. So it's
just you're stacking them however you prefer them. But grade wise,
talent wise, they're all in one big pile together. So
(28:22):
that's why I think you're gonna see one of these
other quarterbacks is going to emerge. You're right, it's gonna
be him you're talking, or it's gonna be you know,
Will Howard's got some sponsors for the way he finished
up winning a national championship. No, Roe's got some loud tools.
But you know, he was all kind of all over
the place down there at the Senior Bowl. Dylan Gabriel
is kind of I mean, everybody's like, oh, you know,
is he going to get drafted? I'm like, guys like
(28:44):
if you put him in a dome, like you put
him in the NFC South, He's not that much different
than Tua. Like there, you can you can see a
lot of similarities there. I know if I was Miami
and if he was hanging around there in the middle rounds, shoot,
I'd take him just as my two insurance because I
don't have to change anything on my offense.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, no, I mean so it's look, man, beauty is
always an eye of the beholder. And when you're talking
about quarterbacks and the number of teams that need quarterbacks
and the number teams that are gonna be boxed out
when it comes to free agency, those guys are going
to be in the conversation, maybe a little sooner than
many people think. And when you're talking about like the
(29:21):
next tier of quarterbacks, right like if we just say
that Kim Ward and Shoulder centers in a different tier.
But like those guys vying for three or maybe even two,
some names are gonna come up. And Jackson Dart to me,
I wouldn't say it's the safest, but he's the most
logical that would come up. And the reason why I
would say is like he goes from sc to ole
(29:41):
Miss and even though the system is not a pro
style system, it marries a bunch of things that we
see on Sundays. You think about the level of experience,
You think about like I think now we are all
looking for the guy who's had to kind of go
through some stuff from almost side. He has some of that,
And to me, he's not as big of a project
(30:03):
as Jalen mill Roe could be in certain offenses. So
to me, he's kind of like a natural and logical
fit as the third or whatever. Will Howard certainly got
hot down to stretch with man. I still have like
the Michigan game where he didn't play rate and that
hanging like they're gonna be people to try and push
cal McCord into the thing, But then I'm gonna have
(30:25):
the whole year of Ohio State, the last year where
they pushed him out. He goes so there. Look, they're
gonna be things on every quarterback, even the ward and
to do so, it's going to be fascinating to have
the conversations as we get into the combine and then
the workouts, and then as what I would say is
a bad thing when when when think tank takes over,
(30:48):
who is going to be able to stand on conviction
and say, hey man, I feel really good about this
quarterback and we can build something out for him to
thrive in because I still remember there weren't a whole
lot of people that were had on bonnecks and bownicks
gets into the league and they're like, oh man, well
pay I'm like yeah, yeah, for everybody. It's so many
factors that go with where the guy can succeed a
(31:08):
fill in the league. Yep.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's going to be part of the discussion here for
the next several months as we get towards the draft.
All right, that's gonna do it for us. Today, we
will have a short one. We got a short podcoming
your way tomorrow as we head towards Super Bowl Sunday,
and we'll have all the recap stuff for you beginning
early next week as we full on transition into the offseason, draft,
free agency, all that good stuff. So appreciate you guys
(31:31):
hanging with U. See next time right here on with
the sticks
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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