March 17, 2022 • 33 mins
In this episode of the Tape Heads: Draft Season podcast, hosts Bob Wischusen and Greg Cosell welcome Kentucky OC Rich Scangarello to the podcast. We discuss seeing players at the combine and how much stock NFL teams put into strictly what they're seeing there. As a long-time NFL coach, Rich explains how offenses have changed and how QB's have changed based on what's being asked of them on the field. This isn't being looked at as a deep QB draft, but Rich thinks a QB going a bit later in the Draft to a better team could help that player become a better QB. We also discuss Kentucky QB Will Levins and what Rich expects to see from him next season. Bob and Greg continue the discussion on seeing a College QB try to make that transition to the NFL and why the skills sometimes don't translate to the pros. Rich's thoughts also make us look at this class of QBs differently and explains why Kenny Pickett still tops the list of prospects.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to another brand new edition of Tapet's Draft Season.
Bobo Shoosing Greg co Sell. I'm a longtime radio voice
New York Jets, of course college football broadcaster at ESPN,
and Great co Sell. If you have watched NFL films
at any point over the last four decades, you've seen
Great co sells work. If not on Capra, then certainly
on the shows. He has broken down the tape better
than anybody. The All twenty two get you set not
(00:26):
only scouting reports for games each week, but of course
the draft as well, and that is our job right here.
And Greg, we're gonna welcome in a guest to start
off this episode, because we've got a guy that checks
just about every box that we would want checked to
talk about, especially quarterback play but getting ready college football
to the NFL and even guys we've talked about so
(00:47):
far on this podcast. That's Rich Gangarrello, who not only
has spent a lot of time in the National Football League,
most recently with the San Francisco forty Niners, but now
is back as the offensive coordinator in college at uh
at the University of Kentucky. So Rich, thanks so much
for spending time with us. We appreciate it. I appreciate
you having me on. Yeah, and you and Greg, right,
this is a tearful reunion for the two of you, right, Yeah.
(01:09):
Well yeah, Well I got to know Rich last summer
at a coaching collective. It was awesome. Uh. It started
out just being in a van driving down to where
we were going, about a forty five minute ride, and
we started talking quarterbacks and uh uh I think it
was when we were talking about Mitch Drobisky that you
kind of looked at me, uh, Rich and said, boy, yeah,
I think you know what you're talking about. Just a
little bit anyway, So, uh, well, we kind of had
(01:31):
some really good conversations about quarterbacks last summer. Yeah, we did. Yeah,
It's something my enjoy talking about when I find someone
that kind of sees it the right way. I really like,
uh having those discussions. Yeah, we had some good ones,
and uh, you know, one of the things and and
Bob will take over here in a sect just to
get us going. But obviously one of the things we
really want to talk about, and because that's what teams
(01:53):
should be doing, is transitioning college quarterbacks to the NFL
and what's involved with that. So Bob, why don't you
jump in here and we can kind of get get
Rich started a little bit. Yeah, Rich, I mean really
just to build off of that wide angle lens when
you guys are looking at college quarterbacks, I think a
lot of people think the draft is and when we
see these mock drafts, guys are just taking player one
(02:16):
to three hundred. This guy is the best, this guy's
the next best, this guy's the next best without thinking
through the lens of the transition to the NFL, but
also systems and coaches and what quarterback might fit best
with what group and just so your experience of breaking
down the tape, but also what teams are looking for
(02:38):
and and and you know those properties you're looking for
in a college quarterback that you know they have to
have to win in the NFL. Yes, So I mean
it's um, there's a there's a lot of angles to
attack this from. So you have the traits of a
quarterback that are going to be, to me, non negotiables
for them to be successful at the NFL level. Um,
(02:59):
to be a top tier starter if that's what you're
you know, drafting, especially when you're drafting high UM. But
then from there, it's what kind of system do you run, UM?
What can bring out the best in that individual? And UM,
you know, one of the things that I that people
neglect in the process to to acknowledge with the success
or failures of a lot of these guys, is the
(03:21):
environment you bring them into, UM will determine a great
deal of their success. You know, there are great organizations,
they are poor organizations, are great systems for quarterbacks and whatnot,
and those who all effect impact all these qualities as well.
But the bottom line is do they have the toughness
to stand in there in the pockets when they're getting
hit and deliver when it matters most. And if you
(03:43):
cannot do that, and you cannot show me that on
your college tape, I find it very difficult for you
to be a top tier quarterback in the NFL. And
I would say that that's where most people in the
evaluation process running problems when they don't really take that
one right in a contested pocket, how a quarterback plays
(04:03):
the game in college football and really evaluate those moments
in a guy's career. And you know, it's interesting you
say that because, as you know, in college football, there's
a lot of quarterbacks that don't work out of muddy,
noisy pockets very often. You and I spoke about Trevor
Lawrence last summer, and I think you told me and
I think I remember the correct number that in going
(04:24):
through all his tape, they were just thirty four plays
in which he actually worked through a muddied, noisy pocket.
And that's obviously not a large sample size to make
a judgment about his ability to do that at the
NFL level. Yeah, I think that, Uh, if you evaluate
someone how they throw on air or um, you know,
(04:45):
if they they're in a system in college where the
coaches telling them where to throw the ball before the
snap and they know a small amount of plays what's
good against certain coverages. Um, those things don't really mean
zero to me in the evaluation process. And if you're
watching a draft day, Uh, does a workout that a
(05:07):
guy has been through twenty times and his coach has
taught him the routine and you think that that is
gonna determine his value in this league? I think that
you're gonna miss a lot of the time. Um, it's
not real football. And these kids have been doing it
with the leade eleven and things since they're fifteen years old,
and they know how to master those things. There's no variables.
They're just throwing on air. You show me a guy
(05:28):
all his clips throughout his career, how I'll go back
to their high school tape if I have to, where
they can when they're taking in the chin and not
turn it down and make good decisions, or when the
pocket is pushed on them. Um, those are the moments.
That's the lead. That's what it takes in the NFL.
If you can't do that, um, you're not gonna get
(05:49):
that overnight in the NFL. And to me, that is
always gonna be where you miss on a guy and
if you're willing, if you can't see that in a player. Um,
and there's not a lot of it on tape, Let's
say Trevor for sample, or there's been other guys, Um,
you know. I Haskins comes to mind. When he came out.
I think he was touched like eighteen times in his
senior year. I mean it was ridiculous how many how
(06:11):
few times he was actually in a contested pocket. If
you're gonna overlook those things, then you're gonna have a
huge margin for air with a miss with the guy
we're talking to Rich Ganzarrello, most recently quarterback coach of
the San Francisco forty Niners in the NFL, but now
in college as the offensive coordinator for Kentucky. So a
great way to look at it from both angles and
Rich maybe to flip it around there. I'm wondering also
(06:34):
from the evaluation process, how much the fact that now
in the NFL, so many of the systems were watching
have that college d n A, you know, just in
terms of the xs and os. What does that do
to the evaluation process of the college player to the pros?
Because when I was growing up, it was three step,
(06:54):
five step, seven, step drop. You wanted the sixth three,
got to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball
and that was it. And and that's not what we
see now in the NFL with so many systems. So
how does that impact you looking at college guys for
the NFL. And that's a great question, And you could
talk for hours on this subject around would enjoy every
minute of it. But it's a great question. It's why
(07:17):
it's why thirty years ago you're you're you know, you
were apples to apples with what you were evaluating a
college quarterback, you played unders under center in a more
pro style environment, and that's what he did in the NFL,
and it was a little easier to evaluate. It's also
why there was such a you know, if he's not
six ft two, he can't play in the NFL and
(07:40):
in the short quarterback and all these narratives that were
a big deal back in the day, Well that's true.
If you play that style of football, it would still
be that same issue. But you can be built like
Russell Wilson or Kyler Murray or any of these guys
now because you're not asking those guys to play under
center anymore, and they're taking eight to their snaps and
(08:01):
the gun and um as long as they have the
ability to to find throwing lanes. Hikes. A great example
of something that no longer matters is big a deal
as a trade um that translates over to the NFL UM.
So I think the game has evolved. I think players
can you can fit them into the UH to ask
(08:22):
them to do some similar things more in the NFL
that they're doing in college. But in the end, the
past rush of the NFL, the protection responsibilities, the hot
throws you have to make the things you do under
the rest. I just don't see it as much in
college football and in the NFL. You're gonna get a hundred,
you're gonna get a hundred times in the season, get
knocked in your butt. Um. They may go their whole
(08:45):
entire careers before that ever happens. And not only do
you have to do it for one season, they got
to do with their whole career. And do they have
that grit and ability to do it? That's the separator.
So Rich, let me ask you this. You know you
you mentioned Wilson, you mentioned Murray, there's others. Obviously, where
do you fit this the second reaction, improvisational ability into
an evaluation because you hear so many people say now
(09:08):
that if you can't do that, that now it's tough
to play quarterback in the NFL, and obviously there'd be
a lot of debate about whether that's true or not.
Where do you stand on that? I think that it
so much of the game uh is does get improvised,
where there are explosives or negatives by bad decision making
that come in those moments, and those abilities to extend plays,
(09:32):
the mobility they help an oline Um, they help you
in the red zone because it's so hard to throw
in rhythm. Um, there's so many on third down. You're
able to play earlier in the league, and you're able
to generate a positive place for your offense. I mean,
I think Josh Allen is a great example of that.
Like that's the prototypical guy now. Um. Yeah, it just
(09:55):
it just makes a huge difference, and and it allows
you to do more in your system and have more
flexibility because they can bail you out as coach. Quite honestly,
Rich Ganzarrello has spent over twenty years coaching in the
National Football League and in college football. We're gonna take
a quick time out. We're gonna come back and talk
not only about some of the prospects in this draft
with Rich, but also he's got one in his holster
(10:17):
that we're gonna be talking about in the not too
distant future. I want to give us some love to
Will Levis, the quarterback at Kentucky as well, because he
has a very high ceiling and Rich can certainly tell
us about him as well. We'll come right back on
tape Eds Draft Season. Welcome back to Tapeds Draft Season.
Bobo Shooes and Greig co Sell happy to be joined
(10:38):
by Rich Ganzarrello, the offensive coordinator at the University of
Kentucky but also longtime NFL assistant quarterbacks coach, most recently
with the San Francisco forty Niners. And and I think
Rich to start off this segment, because you and Greg
just talked about it, or at least touched on this
if it's something that I've always been curious about. You
(10:59):
love Josh Allen, right, Like Greg told me that you
were a very high guy on Josh Allen. You thought
he was going to be a top notch NFL player.
What was the knock of several on Josh Allen? Obviously
there were accuracy scattershot issues, but also you always wonder
the level of competition in college and how that translates
to the NFL. And you guys took Trey Lance right
(11:20):
kind of that same debate of where did you play
in college? He didn't play in the SEC, didn't play
in the Big Ten. Where where does that factor of
the evaluation process for you? Because there's a Malik Willis
in this draft, we're gonna be asking the same questions
about him. So level of competition in the evaluation process
college to the NFL. So one of my favorite things
about quarterbacks. I think historically the mid major to smaller
(11:45):
Power five schools, those quarterbacks over the history of time,
to me, have been some of the best players in
this league. Um and when you can take a quarterback
who's a multi year starter at a mid major, for example,
and he can take to a level that they've never seen.
So let's just say they're an average type program and
then all of a sudden, for two years they're winning
(12:07):
conference titles, are competing for it. To me, that tells
me that quarterback has the ability to raise the level
of everyone around him. And for Josh Allen at Wyoming,
the two years he was there, they won more games
than probably ever in that history that program. In those
two years in a row, they had never had eight
win seasons. I think they had like one or two
and their whole history of the program, and then when
(12:28):
he was there, they were doing it. To me, that
that tells you that the guys will winner and he
has the ability to elevate people around him. So those
things are important to me. So a guy like the
leak who's at Liberty or somebody who plays at a
smaller program. Show me what they did at that program.
Did they did they elevate that that two new heights?
Did they did they win championships? Um? To me, those
(12:51):
are all part of the process of evaluating a guy,
and you show me those traits and usually it's going
to translate to a natural competitor at the next level. Well,
let me ask you this. You mentioned malik um. Obviously
we know that he can throw the ball really hard
and he can run fast. You would mention when we
first started that there were some non negotiable traits for you. Obviously,
based on what you said, we know that being able
(13:14):
to work out of a contested pocket is one. What
other traits to you? As you look at a college
quarterback with whatever system is in many of them are
are in systems that are relatively simple compared to what
they're going to do in the NFL. What other traits
would you look at as being non negotiable? You know,
if you're gonna if you if you have any aspirations
(13:34):
of playing a guy to day one, he better have
been a multi year starter in college. I mean to me,
it may be a different game, but the experiences and
and taking the snaps and what you do when you're
in charge and banking. Those reps are so important. So
a guy that plays a lot of games in college,
you know, like that's the great thing about Picket, you know,
(13:56):
staying in. I mean that he has a a lot
of starts under his belt. Joe Burrow that extra year, Like,
I mean, look what it did for him. Um, you know,
you come out you're a one one year guy. It's
very difficult for you to just jump in and play
in the league. You just haven't played enough football, um
to hone your craft. And I think that so I'm
(14:16):
always looking for guys that have a lot of starts. Um,
do they take care of the football? Um in those
moments uh where they it could go sideways? Do they
or do they create positive place? You know? Do they
do they make smart decisions? Um? In critical situations? How
do they play in two minute situations? I Mean there
(14:37):
are guys that I've evaluated in recent drafts where they've
they're on such good teams at Ohio State or these
other schools where they literally maybe they don't even have
a two minute situation that really matters in their entire career,
you know, Like give me a guy who's who's played
a lot of one score games and found a way
to win them and show me in those situations how
he is under dress like, Um, in college football, you
(15:00):
forget you don't get to talk to the guy in
the helmet. So in two minutes when he's out there,
he's on his own. In the NFL, us as coaches
were bathing these guys through a lot of stuff, Hey
do this do that you can talk to a guy? Um?
They got to be a coach free out on the
field in college football. So in those moments where they
can't look to the sideline and have an answer, Um,
(15:20):
how do they handle it? Like? Things like that are
are when you're looking at the entire picture and you're
you're trying to make a decision that will you know,
DECIDAH franchises course their history, where they're headed, a GM
head coach, everyone that's weighing on what will be the
outcome of this pick. You have to unturn every stone
(15:40):
and those things are very very important. Well, Rich you
know you mentioned Willis, you mentioned picket. Um. We have
a lot of fans of quarterback needy teams that are
listening to this podcast that are gonna be on pins
and needles on draft day wanting to know if their
team is actually gonna step in and take a quarterback
this year. So maybe, like, what do you think of
(16:00):
this quarterback class, those guys, a couple of other guys
that you've seen. What if there's a quarterback needy team
out there, are they going to find their guy potentially
in this draft? Yeah? I mean it's always there. I
mean yea, some years are deeper than other with with
a few more. All it takes is two or three
more contenders as franchise quarterbacks to to make it considered
(16:21):
a deep draft. But what I will say is this,
the best thing that can happen to a quarterback sometimes
is to be picked fifteen to thirty two because he's
picked by a better franchise and that will ultimately allow
him to have a better chance to prove that he's
a better quarterback and versus going to a two and
fourteen team where he's going to get his head kicked
(16:43):
in and confidence wrecked and all the things that go
along with that environment. So maybe these guys will move
down in the draft and not pick get picked a side,
but they made up in better organizations. Uh, which gives
them a chance to have better careers and then ten years.
So now you're saying, oh, hey, we didn't expect this
draft to be as good as it was, and all
(17:04):
of a sudden, some quarterbacks from Cincinnati that no one
thought about is uh as a franchise player, you know.
So those are the things that I think. There's so
many variables that you never know. So I do think
that there are in every draft, there are going to
be those answers, and sometimes they come from the most
like unlikely places. I know, Rich you mentioned you've seen
(17:26):
a good amount of Kenny Pickett, and he's obviously a
name that's being talked about. Is potentially the first quarterback
off the board this year from what you have seen.
If Kenny Pickett give us sort of a breakdown of
his game and how you see him transitioning to the league, Yeah,
I mean again, systems will determine a lot of their success.
I think that he is uh you know, I mean
(17:49):
you could throw him in the Mac Jones type mold
or or those types of quarterbacks where he's a multi
year starter. He took pit to some real high level play. Uh.
He has been very good with the ball, he's toughness,
he's good under duress, he won big games in the clutch. Um.
I think all those things bode well. Um, if he
(18:10):
gets in the right organization, with the system that allows
him to kind of, you know, distribute the ball um
with the right style passing attack, I think he's going
to have a chance to be real successful. Yeah, Because
I know when I was at the Combine this year,
I spoke to a lot of coaches and and I
actually really like Canny pick it on tape, and I'm
trying to figure out in my mind why he's not
thought of a little more highly. And one of the
(18:32):
things I kept hearing was, well, he doesn't have that
one special trait. But but to me watching him, you know,
I see a guy that you know, he knows where
to go with the football. You know, he knows how
to go to the right receiver with the right kind
of throw at the right time. And and he has
some mobility. I mean we saw that against Clemson when
he had to make some tough runs in critical situations
(18:53):
and he made them. So I guess I'm trying to
figure out why he's not thought of. And I'm not
suggesting he's Josh Allen or that guy. But I'm trying
to figure out why he's not thought of a little
more highly. Well, I think the two things that come
to mind, or the hand size I might scare some people,
you know, just he's had to adapt his throwing style,
I think because of it. But he's found a way.
(19:14):
So that wouldn't discourage me, unless you know he's proven
to overcome that. But to me, you know, what is
the the elite trait? You know, do you want a
guy that throws it's hard in seventy yards or a
guy that runs really faster, or do you want a
guy who throws with anticipation on time, allows yacht processes,
(19:36):
a natural leader, those qualities and again, and what I
would say is you show me all the Kenny Pickett's
place his entire college career where he was in a
contested pocket. You watch just those places, which I have not.
But if you watch just those plays and you show
me and you compare him against other guys that have
come out recently, or you show me he plays at
a high level in that situation, I would tell you
(19:58):
that's the elite trade. That will say upgrade the guy
if he can do it. Chances are he's gonna be
very good. If he can't, chances are he won't, and that,
to me, will determine all those guys success. Hey, before
we let you go, you've got one. We should definitely
give some love to Will Levis. I've watched him last
season beat Florida in front of a packed house. And obviously,
(20:19):
if you're a quarterback in the NFL, I'm sure your
job as an offensive coordinator is to keep Will Levice's
pocket clean as much as possible. But if you're a
quarterback in the SEC, you're gonna be in a contested
pocket from time to time. But I think I don't
think there's any way around that. So we're gonna see
him tested. We'll see certainly as a play caller, you tested,
But tell us about Will Levice and what you project
(20:41):
a couple of years from now he might be in
the NFL, because he'll be part of that next class
we're gonna be talking about. Yeah. So, I mean, you know,
I had a great, great job and was very happy
with where I was at, and this popped on the
radar very quickly, um and just randomly. Last year I
had seen a game where Will had played and I
had he had jumped on my I just noticed him
(21:03):
in that game. It was just watching the game on
TV and thinking, man, this guy's pretty good. And then
when this popped on my radar, I threw on some
game tape. Before you know, it worked out that I
was able to take the job. And I just I
saw some qualities that are very important to me, and
I saw some things that make him a very very
(21:25):
talented quarterback um and they could really excel in our
kind of pro style system. And so so far, what
I've seen and been around, I've been very pleased with.
And I think he's got tremendous outside and he's got
a lot of competitive greatness in him. And uh, I
look forward to coaching Rich. Thanks so much for doing this.
We really do appreciate it, no problem, appreciate it. Thanks Rich.
(21:45):
What I'll talk to you soon. Okay, it sounds good, great,
appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks Okay at his Rich Scanzarello, be
sure to keep your eye on Kentucky football this year
and straight ahead, we'll continue the discussion. I want to
react to some of the things Rich told us. We've
been told this isn't necessarily a quarterback deep draft. But Rich,
you might have given some hope to some teams out
there that they're gonna find their franchise guy. Find out
about that. Next on Taped's Draft Season, we are back
(22:12):
on what has already been a really good informative episode
of tapeds Draft Season, Rich Gangarillo. We just said goodbye
to him, a Kentucky offensive coordinator, but of course twenty
years combined college and NFL coaching experience. Bobo Shoes and
Greg Cosell and Greg, what were your big takeaways on
what Rich said? He said some pretty enlightening things to
(22:33):
me about the NFL draft process and how you can
find I think like almost unintended flaws, flaws that are
not necessarily the fault of the quarterback in college, but
affect the process at least in terms of how NFL
guys might evaluate that player. Um, when if you play
(22:54):
for a team that's just too good in college, you
might be a big reason why, but it also means
you were and tested and college, you know, teams that
are so good and don't have a tested quarterback, they're
not necessarily providing the information to the NFL guy who
wants to see you. When like the world is kind
of crumbling around you and how you handle it um
(23:17):
on a football field. And I thought it was really interested, fascinating,
and it's it's always He spoke about something that I
thought for years and he's lived it as a coach,
that it's not just about evaluating traits, Bob of college quarterbacks,
it's what are they going to be asked to do
in the NFL? So that's the next step, you know.
(23:38):
And I think that it's one thing to look at
a quarterback and say, oh, he's got a big arm,
he's got great mobility, but what is he going to
be asked to do? And two quick stories. I remember
going back years when I was evaluating Blaine Gabbard in
that draft and Jacksonville traded up as you made a
call to draft him. And I remember watching him at
Missouri and there were so many sort of one step
(23:59):
drop shot gun throws, so there's no pressure on those throws.
And I kept digging and digging and digging and watching
more and more tape. You know, some people thought I
was nuts. I just kept watching more and more because
I wanted to find plays where he had deeper drops
and was under duress and you find them. There weren't
a lot of them, but I found them. And he
did not execute well at all. So when he got
(24:21):
to the NFL, we saw that when the pocket got
muddied and noisy and contested, to use Rich's word, he
could not function. And that's one reason why someone like
Blaine Gabbert has never been able to be a full
time starter because with a big arm, he's athletic, but
he could never operate out of a contested pocket. And
then one other quick story, I've gotten to O'Brien Schottenheimer,
(24:43):
who was with Jacksonville last year as their quarterback coach,
and we spoke about Trevor Lawrence and he said that
one of the main things with Trevor is that, just
what Rich said, he did not have to work with
bodies around him in college, so that was the kind
of thing they really had to work on the because
Trevor Lawrence is a strider as a thrower, and and
I noticed that watching his tape, and I made that
(25:05):
note last year when I was evaluating him, that he
tends to stride and when there are people around him,
he's not as comfortable and he rushes his mechanics and Basically,
Brian echoed the same thing. He obviously knows him better
than I, he was with him every day. But I
personally believe a thousand percent in where Rich said, if
you cannot operate in the NFL at have contested muddied pockets,
(25:28):
it's really hard to be a high level quarterback. And
the other thing which obviously struck home to me was
getting a quarterback to an organization that as a foundation
to support him, talent around him, a successful system. All
of that has so much to do with shaping that
(25:49):
guy's career. And look, I've been calling the Jets for
twenty years and when and been I've gone to every
game basically for and when I think about the young
quarterbacks have had that have been successful, Chad Pennington, and
Chad was hurt a lot. But when Chad played and
played a full season or close to it, he normally
(26:09):
got the team to the playoffs. He went to Miami
and played a full season and got them to the playoffs.
So he was a guy that necessarily wasn't necessarily gonna
carry to a super Bowl, but he was a guy
that was a playoff worthy quarterback. Even Mark Sanchez, who
they drafted him high, but he came to a good team.
He came to a team that could run the ball
and play defense, had a great offensive line, got to
back to back championship games. Then I think about the
(26:31):
quarterbacks that have failed, the Geno Smith's, the Sam Donald's,
now Zack Wilson is fighting that fight, um, And how
much you know, I've always heard the knock on samp
well off Sam Donald was that great. He should have
risen the team and carried the team and gotten everybody
around him to rise up and play better. And that
that's probably there's some truth to that, I'm sure. But
(26:53):
having said that, like look at some of the star
quarterbacks now in the NFL, guys that we think of
as some of the US to the best, like a
Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes. Those guys did go to teams
that had great circumstances, great foundations, great teams to put
that player in that sphere and let them, to a
(27:14):
certain extent, develop mentally be protected by that sphere and
lived within that foundation. It It is a great point.
I mean, if I'm a quarterback, of course I want
to get picked in the top five. I want to
say I was the first pick in the draft. That's
where all the money is. But maybe for long term success,
you're better off being taken twenty six by an organization
(27:34):
that believes in you. But also it's pretty good because
that's why they're drafting. Yeah, and rich and I spoke
about this last summer when I spent time with him.
He said that the number one indicator and I guess
he had a study done with whatever team he was
with at the time, might have been the Niners, I
can't remember, but there was he had a study done
by the organization that proves the number one indicator of
(27:55):
quarterback success as a rookie is the quality of team,
not the quality of individual player. Because all these guys,
if you're drafted first, second, third, are talented, as we know,
they have traits, but it's the quality of team and
by extension, I would guess organization. So if the quality
of team is high, and you mentioned some quarterbacks, obviously,
(28:16):
Patrick Mahomes went to the Chiefs and did not even
play his first year until the final game of the season,
which you know, and again, he was the tenth pick
in the draft. The Chiefs traded up to get him,
but they had Alex Smith at the time, and Alex
Smith was a quality quarterback, won a lot of games
in this league. Um, but normally rookie quarterbacks play. Now,
you know, it's very rare that you know you're in
(28:39):
a Carson Palmer situation in two thousand three, where the
first pick in the draft, Carson Palmer did not play
I think one snap in two thousand and three his
rookie season. If you're drafted first, now you're going to play,
and if the quality of team cannot support you in
any way or in any meaningful way, it is really
(28:59):
hard to do. She saw that with Trevor Lawrence. You
saw that with your guy, Zach Wilson. We'll see what
happens this year. It's not likely a quarterback will be
drafted in the top two or three. I guess Detroit
would be the wild card at number two. They theoretically
could take a quarterback, and I guess they did coach
Malik Willison the Senior Bowl, so they do know him well.
So that's a decision they'll have to make. But it's
(29:22):
very possible that the quarterbacks bob in this draft will
go to teams that have a good foundation, and if
the quarterback does have to play year one, every game
is not on his shoulders. Looking before we wrap this
episode up at the quarterbacks in this draft through the
lens that Rich provided us. Yeah, you know, maybe took
(29:44):
a program that hadn't won before and got it to
a higher winning level, played a lot in a muddy
pocket and succeeded, was a leader, took some shots right
to the chops and still delivered the football. Are there
guys that you've evaluated in this draft that you might
(30:04):
look at a twinge differently than maybe before we talk
to Rich, or some guys that check some of those
boxes that if I'm an NFL needy you know, a
quarterback needy team in the NFL in this draft, I'm
gonna say, Oh, well, now I might look at you know,
Kenny pick It a little differently than maybe I would
have looked at him before. I kind of crawled inside
the mind of an NFL evaluator like Rich. Right, Well,
(30:26):
I think pick It checks those boxes, and I felt
that way even before we spoke to Rich. I think
I pick it. First of all, he played four years
as a starter, clear incremental improvement every year until this year,
where he had dramatic improvement and the tape shows that.
And the tape shows a tough minded, competitive player who
to me has a very desirable combination of pocket execution.
(30:49):
H he's a ball distributor and an executor, but also
there's a toughness to him and enough mobility and extend
the play dimension to his game that he can do that.
I mentioned the Clemson game. Obviously Clemson did not have
its best year, but Clemson gets five star recruits on defense, clearly,
and Kenny Pikett played a terrific game that required him
(31:11):
to be highly competitive. So I think Kenny Pickett checks
those boxes. I think another player who we didn't mention
with rich but I think Desmond Ritter falls into that category.
He's a four year starter, did not have a very
good sophomore season. And in fact, one of the things
I've learned about their coach Luke Fickle, and I don't
know if you did it. You said you've done some
(31:33):
Cincinnati games as I recall, Yeah, I had them a
couple of times this year. YEA, Yeah. Luke Fickle is
well known as a guy that no matter who the
quarterback was the year before, it's an open competition. So
Desmond Ritter had to win the job every year, and
he came off a relatively speaking poor sophomore season, so
he had to win the job to go into his
(31:54):
junior season, had an excellent junior season, and then we
saw what he did this year where obviously they made
it to the final Foreign College Football. So I think
Desmond Ritter might check those boxes as well. A player
that took a program that you know, was, I mean,
not a bad program, but not a great program, and
he turned them into a national power to some degree,
(32:14):
and they and they're not really considered a Power five school.
So you know, I think that Ritter would would check
those boxes. It's the old Build Parcels school of thought
that your quarterback has to start a certain number of
games and be a leader type. And Desmond Rittor is
certainly not a guy that looks for the cameras. Yep,
there's no doubt. It was really it was fascinating to
talk to Rich. I really enjoyed it. And next week
(32:36):
I think we're gonna bring on another guy that has
lived that life and been in that room. Mike Tannenbaum.
All right, we're gonna talk to former NFL executive ran
the Jets ran the Dolphins, so Mike Tannenbaum was going
to join us, and he's gonna give us not only
more player evaluations, but also walk us through how a
team lines up their draft board and gets the guys
(32:59):
that they want. So you can hit us up on
social media let us know who you want your team
to draft this season, those quarterbacks or the is a
lot of debate at a lot of different positions and
can't wait to get back next week talk to Mike
Tannenbaum as we continue to take you up on this
podcast until the NFL Draft. Look forward to seeing you
next week on tape ed's Draft Season
Welcome to another brand new edition of Tapet's Draft Season.
Bobo Shoosing Greg co Sell. I'm a longtime radio voice
New York Jets, of course college football broadcaster at ESPN,
and Great co Sell. If you have watched NFL films
at any point over the last four decades, you've seen
Great co sells work. If not on Capra, then certainly
on the shows. He has broken down the tape better
than anybody. The All twenty two get you set not
(00:26):
only scouting reports for games each week, but of course
the draft as well, and that is our job right here.
And Greg, we're gonna welcome in a guest to start
off this episode, because we've got a guy that checks
just about every box that we would want checked to
talk about, especially quarterback play but getting ready college football
to the NFL and even guys we've talked about so
(00:47):
far on this podcast. That's Rich Gangarrello, who not only
has spent a lot of time in the National Football League,
most recently with the San Francisco forty Niners, but now
is back as the offensive coordinator in college at uh
at the University of Kentucky. So Rich, thanks so much
for spending time with us. We appreciate it. I appreciate
you having me on. Yeah, and you and Greg, right,
this is a tearful reunion for the two of you, right, Yeah.
(01:09):
Well yeah, Well I got to know Rich last summer
at a coaching collective. It was awesome. Uh. It started
out just being in a van driving down to where
we were going, about a forty five minute ride, and
we started talking quarterbacks and uh uh I think it
was when we were talking about Mitch Drobisky that you
kind of looked at me, uh, Rich and said, boy, yeah,
I think you know what you're talking about. Just a
little bit anyway, So, uh, well, we kind of had
(01:31):
some really good conversations about quarterbacks last summer. Yeah, we did. Yeah,
It's something my enjoy talking about when I find someone
that kind of sees it the right way. I really like,
uh having those discussions. Yeah, we had some good ones,
and uh, you know, one of the things and and
Bob will take over here in a sect just to
get us going. But obviously one of the things we
really want to talk about, and because that's what teams
(01:53):
should be doing, is transitioning college quarterbacks to the NFL
and what's involved with that. So Bob, why don't you
jump in here and we can kind of get get
Rich started a little bit. Yeah, Rich, I mean really
just to build off of that wide angle lens when
you guys are looking at college quarterbacks, I think a
lot of people think the draft is and when we
see these mock drafts, guys are just taking player one
(02:16):
to three hundred. This guy is the best, this guy's
the next best, this guy's the next best without thinking
through the lens of the transition to the NFL, but
also systems and coaches and what quarterback might fit best
with what group and just so your experience of breaking
down the tape, but also what teams are looking for
(02:38):
and and and you know those properties you're looking for
in a college quarterback that you know they have to
have to win in the NFL. Yes, So I mean
it's um, there's a there's a lot of angles to
attack this from. So you have the traits of a
quarterback that are going to be, to me, non negotiables
for them to be successful at the NFL level. Um,
(02:59):
to be a top tier starter if that's what you're
you know, drafting, especially when you're drafting high UM. But
then from there, it's what kind of system do you run, UM?
What can bring out the best in that individual? And UM,
you know, one of the things that I that people
neglect in the process to to acknowledge with the success
or failures of a lot of these guys, is the
(03:21):
environment you bring them into, UM will determine a great
deal of their success. You know, there are great organizations,
they are poor organizations, are great systems for quarterbacks and whatnot,
and those who all effect impact all these qualities as well.
But the bottom line is do they have the toughness
to stand in there in the pockets when they're getting
hit and deliver when it matters most. And if you
(03:43):
cannot do that, and you cannot show me that on
your college tape, I find it very difficult for you
to be a top tier quarterback in the NFL. And
I would say that that's where most people in the
evaluation process running problems when they don't really take that
one right in a contested pocket, how a quarterback plays
(04:03):
the game in college football and really evaluate those moments
in a guy's career. And you know, it's interesting you
say that because, as you know, in college football, there's
a lot of quarterbacks that don't work out of muddy,
noisy pockets very often. You and I spoke about Trevor
Lawrence last summer, and I think you told me and
I think I remember the correct number that in going
(04:24):
through all his tape, they were just thirty four plays
in which he actually worked through a muddied, noisy pocket.
And that's obviously not a large sample size to make
a judgment about his ability to do that at the
NFL level. Yeah, I think that, Uh, if you evaluate
someone how they throw on air or um, you know,
(04:45):
if they they're in a system in college where the
coaches telling them where to throw the ball before the
snap and they know a small amount of plays what's
good against certain coverages. Um, those things don't really mean
zero to me in the evaluation process. And if you're
watching a draft day, Uh, does a workout that a
(05:07):
guy has been through twenty times and his coach has
taught him the routine and you think that that is
gonna determine his value in this league? I think that
you're gonna miss a lot of the time. Um, it's
not real football. And these kids have been doing it
with the leade eleven and things since they're fifteen years old,
and they know how to master those things. There's no variables.
They're just throwing on air. You show me a guy
(05:28):
all his clips throughout his career, how I'll go back
to their high school tape if I have to, where
they can when they're taking in the chin and not
turn it down and make good decisions, or when the
pocket is pushed on them. Um, those are the moments.
That's the lead. That's what it takes in the NFL.
If you can't do that, um, you're not gonna get
(05:49):
that overnight in the NFL. And to me, that is
always gonna be where you miss on a guy and
if you're willing, if you can't see that in a player. Um,
and there's not a lot of it on tape, Let's
say Trevor for sample, or there's been other guys, Um,
you know. I Haskins comes to mind. When he came out.
I think he was touched like eighteen times in his
senior year. I mean it was ridiculous how many how
(06:11):
few times he was actually in a contested pocket. If
you're gonna overlook those things, then you're gonna have a
huge margin for air with a miss with the guy
we're talking to Rich Ganzarrello, most recently quarterback coach of
the San Francisco forty Niners in the NFL, but now
in college as the offensive coordinator for Kentucky. So a
great way to look at it from both angles and
Rich maybe to flip it around there. I'm wondering also
(06:34):
from the evaluation process, how much the fact that now
in the NFL, so many of the systems were watching
have that college d n A, you know, just in
terms of the xs and os. What does that do
to the evaluation process of the college player to the pros?
Because when I was growing up, it was three step,
(06:54):
five step, seven, step drop. You wanted the sixth three,
got to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball
and that was it. And and that's not what we
see now in the NFL with so many systems. So
how does that impact you looking at college guys for
the NFL. And that's a great question, And you could
talk for hours on this subject around would enjoy every
minute of it. But it's a great question. It's why
(07:17):
it's why thirty years ago you're you're you know, you
were apples to apples with what you were evaluating a
college quarterback, you played unders under center in a more
pro style environment, and that's what he did in the NFL,
and it was a little easier to evaluate. It's also
why there was such a you know, if he's not
six ft two, he can't play in the NFL and
(07:40):
in the short quarterback and all these narratives that were
a big deal back in the day, Well that's true.
If you play that style of football, it would still
be that same issue. But you can be built like
Russell Wilson or Kyler Murray or any of these guys
now because you're not asking those guys to play under
center anymore, and they're taking eight to their snaps and
(08:01):
the gun and um as long as they have the
ability to to find throwing lanes. Hikes. A great example
of something that no longer matters is big a deal
as a trade um that translates over to the NFL UM.
So I think the game has evolved. I think players
can you can fit them into the UH to ask
(08:22):
them to do some similar things more in the NFL
that they're doing in college. But in the end, the
past rush of the NFL, the protection responsibilities, the hot
throws you have to make the things you do under
the rest. I just don't see it as much in
college football and in the NFL. You're gonna get a hundred,
you're gonna get a hundred times in the season, get
knocked in your butt. Um. They may go their whole
(08:45):
entire careers before that ever happens. And not only do
you have to do it for one season, they got
to do with their whole career. And do they have
that grit and ability to do it? That's the separator.
So Rich, let me ask you this. You know you
you mentioned Wilson, you mentioned Murray, there's others. Obviously, where
do you fit this the second reaction, improvisational ability into
an evaluation because you hear so many people say now
(09:08):
that if you can't do that, that now it's tough
to play quarterback in the NFL, and obviously there'd be
a lot of debate about whether that's true or not.
Where do you stand on that? I think that it
so much of the game uh is does get improvised,
where there are explosives or negatives by bad decision making
that come in those moments, and those abilities to extend plays,
(09:32):
the mobility they help an oline Um, they help you
in the red zone because it's so hard to throw
in rhythm. Um, there's so many on third down. You're
able to play earlier in the league, and you're able
to generate a positive place for your offense. I mean,
I think Josh Allen is a great example of that.
Like that's the prototypical guy now. Um. Yeah, it just
(09:55):
it just makes a huge difference, and and it allows
you to do more in your system and have more
flexibility because they can bail you out as coach. Quite honestly,
Rich Ganzarrello has spent over twenty years coaching in the
National Football League and in college football. We're gonna take
a quick time out. We're gonna come back and talk
not only about some of the prospects in this draft
with Rich, but also he's got one in his holster
(10:17):
that we're gonna be talking about in the not too
distant future. I want to give us some love to
Will Levis, the quarterback at Kentucky as well, because he
has a very high ceiling and Rich can certainly tell
us about him as well. We'll come right back on
tape Eds Draft Season. Welcome back to Tapeds Draft Season.
Bobo Shooes and Greig co Sell happy to be joined
(10:38):
by Rich Ganzarrello, the offensive coordinator at the University of
Kentucky but also longtime NFL assistant quarterbacks coach, most recently
with the San Francisco forty Niners. And and I think
Rich to start off this segment, because you and Greg
just talked about it, or at least touched on this
if it's something that I've always been curious about. You
(10:59):
love Josh Allen, right, Like Greg told me that you
were a very high guy on Josh Allen. You thought
he was going to be a top notch NFL player.
What was the knock of several on Josh Allen? Obviously
there were accuracy scattershot issues, but also you always wonder
the level of competition in college and how that translates
to the NFL. And you guys took Trey Lance right
(11:20):
kind of that same debate of where did you play
in college? He didn't play in the SEC, didn't play
in the Big Ten. Where where does that factor of
the evaluation process for you? Because there's a Malik Willis
in this draft, we're gonna be asking the same questions
about him. So level of competition in the evaluation process
college to the NFL. So one of my favorite things
about quarterbacks. I think historically the mid major to smaller
(11:45):
Power five schools, those quarterbacks over the history of time,
to me, have been some of the best players in
this league. Um and when you can take a quarterback
who's a multi year starter at a mid major, for example,
and he can take to a level that they've never seen.
So let's just say they're an average type program and
then all of a sudden, for two years they're winning
(12:07):
conference titles, are competing for it. To me, that tells
me that quarterback has the ability to raise the level
of everyone around him. And for Josh Allen at Wyoming,
the two years he was there, they won more games
than probably ever in that history that program. In those
two years in a row, they had never had eight
win seasons. I think they had like one or two
and their whole history of the program, and then when
(12:28):
he was there, they were doing it. To me, that
that tells you that the guys will winner and he
has the ability to elevate people around him. So those
things are important to me. So a guy like the
leak who's at Liberty or somebody who plays at a
smaller program. Show me what they did at that program.
Did they did they elevate that that two new heights?
Did they did they win championships? Um? To me, those
(12:51):
are all part of the process of evaluating a guy,
and you show me those traits and usually it's going
to translate to a natural competitor at the next level. Well,
let me ask you this. You mentioned malik um. Obviously
we know that he can throw the ball really hard
and he can run fast. You would mention when we
first started that there were some non negotiable traits for you. Obviously,
based on what you said, we know that being able
(13:14):
to work out of a contested pocket is one. What
other traits to you? As you look at a college
quarterback with whatever system is in many of them are
are in systems that are relatively simple compared to what
they're going to do in the NFL. What other traits
would you look at as being non negotiable? You know,
if you're gonna if you if you have any aspirations
(13:34):
of playing a guy to day one, he better have
been a multi year starter in college. I mean to me,
it may be a different game, but the experiences and
and taking the snaps and what you do when you're
in charge and banking. Those reps are so important. So
a guy that plays a lot of games in college,
you know, like that's the great thing about Picket, you know,
(13:56):
staying in. I mean that he has a a lot
of starts under his belt. Joe Burrow that extra year, Like,
I mean, look what it did for him. Um, you know,
you come out you're a one one year guy. It's
very difficult for you to just jump in and play
in the league. You just haven't played enough football, um
to hone your craft. And I think that so I'm
(14:16):
always looking for guys that have a lot of starts. Um,
do they take care of the football? Um in those
moments uh where they it could go sideways? Do they
or do they create positive place? You know? Do they
do they make smart decisions? Um? In critical situations? How
do they play in two minute situations? I Mean there
(14:37):
are guys that I've evaluated in recent drafts where they've
they're on such good teams at Ohio State or these
other schools where they literally maybe they don't even have
a two minute situation that really matters in their entire career,
you know, Like give me a guy who's who's played
a lot of one score games and found a way
to win them and show me in those situations how
he is under dress like, Um, in college football, you
(15:00):
forget you don't get to talk to the guy in
the helmet. So in two minutes when he's out there,
he's on his own. In the NFL, us as coaches
were bathing these guys through a lot of stuff, Hey
do this do that you can talk to a guy? Um?
They got to be a coach free out on the
field in college football. So in those moments where they
can't look to the sideline and have an answer, Um,
(15:20):
how do they handle it? Like? Things like that are
are when you're looking at the entire picture and you're
you're trying to make a decision that will you know,
DECIDAH franchises course their history, where they're headed, a GM
head coach, everyone that's weighing on what will be the
outcome of this pick. You have to unturn every stone
(15:40):
and those things are very very important. Well, Rich you
know you mentioned Willis, you mentioned picket. Um. We have
a lot of fans of quarterback needy teams that are
listening to this podcast that are gonna be on pins
and needles on draft day wanting to know if their
team is actually gonna step in and take a quarterback
this year. So maybe, like, what do you think of
(16:00):
this quarterback class, those guys, a couple of other guys
that you've seen. What if there's a quarterback needy team
out there, are they going to find their guy potentially
in this draft? Yeah? I mean it's always there. I
mean yea, some years are deeper than other with with
a few more. All it takes is two or three
more contenders as franchise quarterbacks to to make it considered
(16:21):
a deep draft. But what I will say is this,
the best thing that can happen to a quarterback sometimes
is to be picked fifteen to thirty two because he's
picked by a better franchise and that will ultimately allow
him to have a better chance to prove that he's
a better quarterback and versus going to a two and
fourteen team where he's going to get his head kicked
(16:43):
in and confidence wrecked and all the things that go
along with that environment. So maybe these guys will move
down in the draft and not pick get picked a side,
but they made up in better organizations. Uh, which gives
them a chance to have better careers and then ten years.
So now you're saying, oh, hey, we didn't expect this
draft to be as good as it was, and all
(17:04):
of a sudden, some quarterbacks from Cincinnati that no one
thought about is uh as a franchise player, you know.
So those are the things that I think. There's so
many variables that you never know. So I do think
that there are in every draft, there are going to
be those answers, and sometimes they come from the most
like unlikely places. I know, Rich you mentioned you've seen
(17:26):
a good amount of Kenny Pickett, and he's obviously a
name that's being talked about. Is potentially the first quarterback
off the board this year from what you have seen.
If Kenny Pickett give us sort of a breakdown of
his game and how you see him transitioning to the league, Yeah,
I mean again, systems will determine a lot of their success.
I think that he is uh you know, I mean
(17:49):
you could throw him in the Mac Jones type mold
or or those types of quarterbacks where he's a multi
year starter. He took pit to some real high level play. Uh.
He has been very good with the ball, he's toughness,
he's good under duress, he won big games in the clutch. Um.
I think all those things bode well. Um, if he
(18:10):
gets in the right organization, with the system that allows
him to kind of, you know, distribute the ball um
with the right style passing attack, I think he's going
to have a chance to be real successful. Yeah, Because
I know when I was at the Combine this year,
I spoke to a lot of coaches and and I
actually really like Canny pick it on tape, and I'm
trying to figure out in my mind why he's not
thought of a little more highly. And one of the
(18:32):
things I kept hearing was, well, he doesn't have that
one special trait. But but to me watching him, you know,
I see a guy that you know, he knows where
to go with the football. You know, he knows how
to go to the right receiver with the right kind
of throw at the right time. And and he has
some mobility. I mean we saw that against Clemson when
he had to make some tough runs in critical situations
(18:53):
and he made them. So I guess I'm trying to
figure out why he's not thought of. And I'm not
suggesting he's Josh Allen or that guy. But I'm trying
to figure out why he's not thought of a little
more highly. Well, I think the two things that come
to mind, or the hand size I might scare some people,
you know, just he's had to adapt his throwing style,
I think because of it. But he's found a way.
(19:14):
So that wouldn't discourage me, unless you know he's proven
to overcome that. But to me, you know, what is
the the elite trait? You know, do you want a
guy that throws it's hard in seventy yards or a
guy that runs really faster, or do you want a
guy who throws with anticipation on time, allows yacht processes,
(19:36):
a natural leader, those qualities and again, and what I
would say is you show me all the Kenny Pickett's
place his entire college career where he was in a
contested pocket. You watch just those places, which I have not.
But if you watch just those plays and you show
me and you compare him against other guys that have
come out recently, or you show me he plays at
a high level in that situation, I would tell you
(19:58):
that's the elite trade. That will say upgrade the guy
if he can do it. Chances are he's gonna be
very good. If he can't, chances are he won't, and that,
to me, will determine all those guys success. Hey, before
we let you go, you've got one. We should definitely
give some love to Will Levis. I've watched him last
season beat Florida in front of a packed house. And obviously,
(20:19):
if you're a quarterback in the NFL, I'm sure your
job as an offensive coordinator is to keep Will Levice's
pocket clean as much as possible. But if you're a
quarterback in the SEC, you're gonna be in a contested
pocket from time to time. But I think I don't
think there's any way around that. So we're gonna see
him tested. We'll see certainly as a play caller, you tested,
But tell us about Will Levice and what you project
(20:41):
a couple of years from now he might be in
the NFL, because he'll be part of that next class
we're gonna be talking about. Yeah. So, I mean, you know,
I had a great, great job and was very happy
with where I was at, and this popped on the
radar very quickly, um and just randomly. Last year I
had seen a game where Will had played and I
had he had jumped on my I just noticed him
(21:03):
in that game. It was just watching the game on
TV and thinking, man, this guy's pretty good. And then
when this popped on my radar, I threw on some
game tape. Before you know, it worked out that I
was able to take the job. And I just I
saw some qualities that are very important to me, and
I saw some things that make him a very very
(21:25):
talented quarterback um and they could really excel in our
kind of pro style system. And so so far, what
I've seen and been around, I've been very pleased with.
And I think he's got tremendous outside and he's got
a lot of competitive greatness in him. And uh, I
look forward to coaching Rich. Thanks so much for doing this.
We really do appreciate it, no problem, appreciate it. Thanks Rich.
(21:45):
What I'll talk to you soon. Okay, it sounds good, great,
appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks Okay at his Rich Scanzarello, be
sure to keep your eye on Kentucky football this year
and straight ahead, we'll continue the discussion. I want to
react to some of the things Rich told us. We've
been told this isn't necessarily a quarterback deep draft. But Rich,
you might have given some hope to some teams out
there that they're gonna find their franchise guy. Find out
about that. Next on Taped's Draft Season, we are back
(22:12):
on what has already been a really good informative episode
of tapeds Draft Season, Rich Gangarillo. We just said goodbye
to him, a Kentucky offensive coordinator, but of course twenty
years combined college and NFL coaching experience. Bobo Shoes and
Greg Cosell and Greg, what were your big takeaways on
what Rich said? He said some pretty enlightening things to
(22:33):
me about the NFL draft process and how you can
find I think like almost unintended flaws, flaws that are
not necessarily the fault of the quarterback in college, but
affect the process at least in terms of how NFL
guys might evaluate that player. Um, when if you play
(22:54):
for a team that's just too good in college, you
might be a big reason why, but it also means
you were and tested and college, you know, teams that
are so good and don't have a tested quarterback, they're
not necessarily providing the information to the NFL guy who
wants to see you. When like the world is kind
of crumbling around you and how you handle it um
(23:17):
on a football field. And I thought it was really interested, fascinating,
and it's it's always He spoke about something that I
thought for years and he's lived it as a coach,
that it's not just about evaluating traits, Bob of college quarterbacks,
it's what are they going to be asked to do
in the NFL? So that's the next step, you know.
(23:38):
And I think that it's one thing to look at
a quarterback and say, oh, he's got a big arm,
he's got great mobility, but what is he going to
be asked to do? And two quick stories. I remember
going back years when I was evaluating Blaine Gabbard in
that draft and Jacksonville traded up as you made a
call to draft him. And I remember watching him at
Missouri and there were so many sort of one step
(23:59):
drop shot gun throws, so there's no pressure on those throws.
And I kept digging and digging and digging and watching
more and more tape. You know, some people thought I
was nuts. I just kept watching more and more because
I wanted to find plays where he had deeper drops
and was under duress and you find them. There weren't
a lot of them, but I found them. And he
did not execute well at all. So when he got
(24:21):
to the NFL, we saw that when the pocket got
muddied and noisy and contested, to use Rich's word, he
could not function. And that's one reason why someone like
Blaine Gabbert has never been able to be a full
time starter because with a big arm, he's athletic, but
he could never operate out of a contested pocket. And
then one other quick story, I've gotten to O'Brien Schottenheimer,
(24:43):
who was with Jacksonville last year as their quarterback coach,
and we spoke about Trevor Lawrence and he said that
one of the main things with Trevor is that, just
what Rich said, he did not have to work with
bodies around him in college, so that was the kind
of thing they really had to work on the because
Trevor Lawrence is a strider as a thrower, and and
I noticed that watching his tape, and I made that
(25:05):
note last year when I was evaluating him, that he
tends to stride and when there are people around him,
he's not as comfortable and he rushes his mechanics and Basically,
Brian echoed the same thing. He obviously knows him better
than I, he was with him every day. But I
personally believe a thousand percent in where Rich said, if
you cannot operate in the NFL at have contested muddied pockets,
(25:28):
it's really hard to be a high level quarterback. And
the other thing which obviously struck home to me was
getting a quarterback to an organization that as a foundation
to support him, talent around him, a successful system. All
of that has so much to do with shaping that
(25:49):
guy's career. And look, I've been calling the Jets for
twenty years and when and been I've gone to every
game basically for and when I think about the young
quarterbacks have had that have been successful, Chad Pennington, and
Chad was hurt a lot. But when Chad played and
played a full season or close to it, he normally
(26:09):
got the team to the playoffs. He went to Miami
and played a full season and got them to the playoffs.
So he was a guy that necessarily wasn't necessarily gonna
carry to a super Bowl, but he was a guy
that was a playoff worthy quarterback. Even Mark Sanchez, who
they drafted him high, but he came to a good team.
He came to a team that could run the ball
and play defense, had a great offensive line, got to
back to back championship games. Then I think about the
(26:31):
quarterbacks that have failed, the Geno Smith's, the Sam Donald's,
now Zack Wilson is fighting that fight, um, And how
much you know, I've always heard the knock on samp
well off Sam Donald was that great. He should have
risen the team and carried the team and gotten everybody
around him to rise up and play better. And that
that's probably there's some truth to that, I'm sure. But
(26:53):
having said that, like look at some of the star
quarterbacks now in the NFL, guys that we think of
as some of the US to the best, like a
Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes. Those guys did go to teams
that had great circumstances, great foundations, great teams to put
that player in that sphere and let them, to a
(27:14):
certain extent, develop mentally be protected by that sphere and
lived within that foundation. It It is a great point.
I mean, if I'm a quarterback, of course I want
to get picked in the top five. I want to
say I was the first pick in the draft. That's
where all the money is. But maybe for long term success,
you're better off being taken twenty six by an organization
(27:34):
that believes in you. But also it's pretty good because
that's why they're drafting. Yeah, and rich and I spoke
about this last summer when I spent time with him.
He said that the number one indicator and I guess
he had a study done with whatever team he was
with at the time, might have been the Niners, I
can't remember, but there was he had a study done
by the organization that proves the number one indicator of
(27:55):
quarterback success as a rookie is the quality of team,
not the quality of individual player. Because all these guys,
if you're drafted first, second, third, are talented, as we know,
they have traits, but it's the quality of team and
by extension, I would guess organization. So if the quality
of team is high, and you mentioned some quarterbacks, obviously,
(28:16):
Patrick Mahomes went to the Chiefs and did not even
play his first year until the final game of the season,
which you know, and again, he was the tenth pick
in the draft. The Chiefs traded up to get him,
but they had Alex Smith at the time, and Alex
Smith was a quality quarterback, won a lot of games
in this league. Um, but normally rookie quarterbacks play. Now,
you know, it's very rare that you know you're in
(28:39):
a Carson Palmer situation in two thousand three, where the
first pick in the draft, Carson Palmer did not play
I think one snap in two thousand and three his
rookie season. If you're drafted first, now you're going to play,
and if the quality of team cannot support you in
any way or in any meaningful way, it is really
(28:59):
hard to do. She saw that with Trevor Lawrence. You
saw that with your guy, Zach Wilson. We'll see what
happens this year. It's not likely a quarterback will be
drafted in the top two or three. I guess Detroit
would be the wild card at number two. They theoretically
could take a quarterback, and I guess they did coach
Malik Willison the Senior Bowl, so they do know him well.
So that's a decision they'll have to make. But it's
(29:22):
very possible that the quarterbacks bob in this draft will
go to teams that have a good foundation, and if
the quarterback does have to play year one, every game
is not on his shoulders. Looking before we wrap this
episode up at the quarterbacks in this draft through the
lens that Rich provided us. Yeah, you know, maybe took
(29:44):
a program that hadn't won before and got it to
a higher winning level, played a lot in a muddy
pocket and succeeded, was a leader, took some shots right
to the chops and still delivered the football. Are there
guys that you've evaluated in this draft that you might
(30:04):
look at a twinge differently than maybe before we talk
to Rich, or some guys that check some of those
boxes that if I'm an NFL needy you know, a
quarterback needy team in the NFL in this draft, I'm
gonna say, Oh, well, now I might look at you know,
Kenny pick It a little differently than maybe I would
have looked at him before. I kind of crawled inside
the mind of an NFL evaluator like Rich. Right, Well,
(30:26):
I think pick It checks those boxes, and I felt
that way even before we spoke to Rich. I think
I pick it. First of all, he played four years
as a starter, clear incremental improvement every year until this year,
where he had dramatic improvement and the tape shows that.
And the tape shows a tough minded, competitive player who
to me has a very desirable combination of pocket execution.
(30:49):
H he's a ball distributor and an executor, but also
there's a toughness to him and enough mobility and extend
the play dimension to his game that he can do that.
I mentioned the Clemson game. Obviously Clemson did not have
its best year, but Clemson gets five star recruits on defense, clearly,
and Kenny Pikett played a terrific game that required him
(31:11):
to be highly competitive. So I think Kenny Pickett checks
those boxes. I think another player who we didn't mention
with rich but I think Desmond Ritter falls into that category.
He's a four year starter, did not have a very
good sophomore season. And in fact, one of the things
I've learned about their coach Luke Fickle, and I don't
know if you did it. You said you've done some
(31:33):
Cincinnati games as I recall, Yeah, I had them a
couple of times this year. YEA, Yeah. Luke Fickle is
well known as a guy that no matter who the
quarterback was the year before, it's an open competition. So
Desmond Ritter had to win the job every year, and
he came off a relatively speaking poor sophomore season, so
he had to win the job to go into his
(31:54):
junior season, had an excellent junior season, and then we
saw what he did this year where obviously they made
it to the final Foreign College Football. So I think
Desmond Ritter might check those boxes as well. A player
that took a program that you know, was, I mean,
not a bad program, but not a great program, and
he turned them into a national power to some degree,
(32:14):
and they and they're not really considered a Power five school.
So you know, I think that Ritter would would check
those boxes. It's the old Build Parcels school of thought
that your quarterback has to start a certain number of
games and be a leader type. And Desmond Rittor is
certainly not a guy that looks for the cameras. Yep,
there's no doubt. It was really it was fascinating to
talk to Rich. I really enjoyed it. And next week
(32:36):
I think we're gonna bring on another guy that has
lived that life and been in that room. Mike Tannenbaum.
All right, we're gonna talk to former NFL executive ran
the Jets ran the Dolphins, so Mike Tannenbaum was going
to join us, and he's gonna give us not only
more player evaluations, but also walk us through how a
team lines up their draft board and gets the guys
(32:59):
that they want. So you can hit us up on
social media let us know who you want your team
to draft this season, those quarterbacks or the is a
lot of debate at a lot of different positions and
can't wait to get back next week talk to Mike
Tannenbaum as we continue to take you up on this
podcast until the NFL Draft. Look forward to seeing you
next week on tape ed's Draft Season
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