Elliot Page ON: How to Turn Self-Hate Into Self-Love & Navigating Societal Gender Norms

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
To be honest, so much of it is just about
not feeling like unset and in my trailer when I'm alone,
wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I
think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how
much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day
to day life. Everyone's sort of go to was your

(00:20):
dream's coming true, Your dreams coming true, Your dream's coming true,
Kate Winslet said to me, don't let them change you.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
you to join this community to hear more interviews that
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I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
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(00:50):
for subscribing. It means the world to me.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
The best selling author on the Post, the.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Number one Healthy Well inness podcast and Purpose.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
With Jay Shetty, Welcome back to One Purpose. I'm so
excited because I get to sit down with Elliott Page.
Elliott Page is an Academy Award nominated actor, director, producer, writer,
and the New York Times best selling author. Known for
his indelible on screen presence in both tent poll and

(01:17):
art house films, Elliott uses his global platform to shed
light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues. Up next,
Elliott will starr in Close to You, which will have
its world premiere at the twenty twenty three Toronto International
Film Festival. Elliot's critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir, entitled
Page Boy, was published around the world in June twenty

(01:40):
twenty three. The book became an instant bestseller, number one
atop the New York Times Bestseller List and receiving widespread
positive reviews. With Elliot's production company, Pageboy Productions, Elliott develops
and produces entertaining, original and socially responsible stories. Elliott, Welcome
to On Purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thank you so much for making the time for being here.
I know you're in LA only for a few days,
and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of
that time.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Thank you for having me here.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir. For
anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend
that you go and grab it. We're going to put
the link in the caption so that you can order
it right now. Page Boy, please make sure that you
go and grab a copy. If you're enjoying this conversation, Elliott.
When I was reading through the book, I was truly

(02:34):
just first of all, I just felt very grateful that
someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of
their life and doing it in such a graceful and
thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too.
I was just like, Oh, this is like easing me
in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from

(02:55):
a memoir usually. And you chose this non linear approach
consciously and intentionally. Could you explain why you felt that
that was the right way to share your story?

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, I mean, for me, the non linearity of it
is a reflection on some level of speaking for myself,
the trans and queer experience, and how that journey weaves,
how we get close to where truth potentially pull back,
maybe know ourselves very very deeply before we've been inundated

(03:30):
with you know, the society and its expectations that are
often toxic and limiting, and you know, so for me,
in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments
of my life where I did feel close and then
would pull back, potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or

(03:57):
what have you. So I guess also personally, I enjoy
when books are nonlinear. You know, we're in different themes
and topics and history and emotion and what have you
can all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess,

(04:20):
exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects
the sort of queer trans journey on some level.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I love the phrase you just used, the exploration of memory.
I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and
I thought, wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it.
I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing.
It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What
was it like for you going down memory lane? And
when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover

(04:50):
or explore about memory? When you're putting together a memoir,
I feel like I feel like there must be something
in there for me.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
So many of.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
You know, the stories or the moments that I chose
are ones that have just always been vibrating right under
the surface and found the act of writing it in
many ways was quite organic. It was sort of I'd
sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship

(05:24):
that could potentially sort of speak to many things during
that time, or a friendship or an incident or what
have you, and then sort of mold around that. And
for me, so much of what came up was the
stuff that was kind of always running around my brain.
So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know,

(05:45):
in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout
so I think a lot of the the instances and
feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
For me.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
The experience was I don't know if this comes from
like acting or having so much of my life being
a part of telling stories, where it was as if
I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment,
and it was as if I was just describing this
movie I was watching or something.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Do you find that I'm always fascinated by this, especially
with people who are in filmmaking. Do you find that
when you're looking at a memory you're seeing yourself move
or are you kind of the person doing the moving?
Does that make sense?

Speaker 5 (06:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (06:33):
It does.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
I think probably both the combination of the two probably
also a conscious removal on some level to be able to,
you know, give a texture and description that hopefully will
you know, pull the reader into it.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Absolutely well. I always find that all my memories, which
it took me a long time to realize this, all
my memories that are based on pictures are ones that
I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually
have from my mind.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
If that, yeah, if that.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Makes sense, Like whenever I see a picture of me
and my family, then I'm like, oh, actually, I don't
have a memory of that. I just have a picture
that sparks something for you. Was there a memory that
was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh,
I didn't I forgot that that happened, or I maybe
didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened. Was
there anything that came up that way or was it
more just things that were already there.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged
out of nowhere that was a surprise. But I think
on some level, and this made you know, the experience
of writing it of course intense in moments but ultimately
really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot
of memories that I had just so swept under the rug,

(07:52):
where you become so conditioned to let certain things go,
certain behavior coming at you go that even sitting here
right now, I can kind of feel it in my
body to register how much certain things really did affect
me and my life and my physical wellbeing and my
emotional wellbeing.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
And what have you.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
So it was almost more like there was like a
therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with
the reality of some things that I think was actually
really important.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, well, thank you for doing it here and here
in both places, because I can only imagine how much
courage it takes to do that. So thank you for
even experiencing even now, as you were saying, you can
feel it in your body and I can see that
it's I can only imagine how much card doses that take.
So you thank you for going there for us. How
does it feel to finally be living the way you've

(08:44):
always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've
always perceived yourself.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's like.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Getting to feel a way that I never thought was
possible when I would just think about my future and
how I was going to feel, and I had a
very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning, I saw
a friend and I don't see him as much because
he lives here, and he's just like this like lightness

(09:14):
in you. He's just like, oh my gosh, it's such.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
An amazing thing to see.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
And this is someone who's been in my life since
I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at
the age of about twenty, like consistently is when we
first met initially. So it's, yeah, it's getting to exist
in a way that I never thought possible. Doesn't mean
I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or you know,
sparks of anxiety naturally, but it's a complete game changer

(09:45):
just getting to feel being able to do this, This
would have been one impossible. Before impossible, I could have
never simply the action of sitting down for the length
that it to have space in my mind freed from
everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort

(10:08):
of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired
and waking up and being able to actually sit down
with myself and do something like this. Impossible before impossible.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
What would your thoughts about the future have been then
that you think made it feel so impossible? As you said,
used to think about the future, and it could never
have felt as good as it does today despite there
being natural human challenges obviously, But yeah, what would that
picture of the future would have been.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I think the way the way to explain it is
almost like it's almost as if your days. I just
do feel like for very significant periods of my life,
I struggled to function on a pretty basic level. You know,
it was hard for me to just literally sit down.

(11:08):
It was hard for me to be productive, it was
hard for me to be you know, present at all.
And so the future, I think I couldn't see it
because I didn't know how much longer i'd last feeling
that way in my day to day life.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who
you've always been and being perceived in that way? Like,
what is acting like now? Has your relationship with acting changed?
Is it better? Is it more?

Speaker 3 (11:35):
So much better?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, I mean, I mean literally everything my life is
better now because of how I get to feel and
feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things
really for the first time, because this is the other
thing I have people say to me, or I'd say
to myself, like like, you're an actor, just put on
the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know whatever.

(11:59):
But I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself.
And as much as acting is about inhabiting you know,
another personality or you know whatever, manfestations of a character,
what have you, you're always bringing yourself to a role

(12:22):
right like you're It's so much about connecting to a character,
to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma to whatever,
to the joy, to what have you, and developing your
connection with that and then molding something on them. So
I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel

(12:44):
like I see that and work like inability to sort
of I almost think of the word loose, and now
there's like this like looseness. There's this ability to just
like exist every day on set, be in my body,
and that's the starting point. I'm not having to like
fight through something to get to the starting point, you

(13:06):
know where. I know people approach the work differently, but
to me, it's about being as present and open as
absolutely possible with all the you know, information you've gathered
about how you want to you know, play this role
or approach it. So it's allowing for that, and it's
feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I
was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat

(13:30):
I could almost handle, you know, I could handle the
you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was
at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again
sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the presence of
it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, it's hard to even though something's in art and
then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two, Like
it's hard to just say, well, that's an art. You
turn it on like an off, like a switch, and
then there's your life. And I think we all know that,
regardless of our disposition or set up, the two intertwine anyway, absolutely,
you know. And so what parts of the art do
you feel have drastically improved for you know, like that

(14:09):
you just feel more connected to or as you said,
I love the words open and present to you.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
I mean to be honest, So much of it is
just about not feeling like unset and in my trailer
when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off
I don't know whatever, the sort of physical ways that
I would feel and like I can't remember, I'd call
my you know, manager on films and just be like,
I'm not okay, like and not necessarily having the words

(14:40):
or having them, but not not being able to fully
follow through with the thought. I guess so so much
of is it actually is like? To be honest, if
someone had told me, oh, you've come out as trands
and you'll never work as an actor again, I would
have been like cool, Like all right, I'd way rather
live my life life and be myself and engage with

(15:03):
the world is myself and feel embodied and not feel
like I don't know how to get through the day
not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like okay, cool
that the you know, if I keep if I do
get cast, the fallout does seem to be this very

(15:23):
positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present
that I think I will it's going to make performances better,
and if it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Doesn't, I don't really care. That's not what life's about
for me.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Had been in movies that have done well, in movies
that have not done well, and you're still where you
are and living your life and.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I'm good.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, I love that. I mean that that is I
love you said That's what life's about, and I think
it's so true. Like for all of us in our
own way, is wanting to feel that we can truly
be who we are and be seen for who we
are and be accepted for who we are is kind
of what all of us on our journey are pursuing
and seeking. And when you say and it sounds like

(16:13):
to me and I'm trying to deeply understand this as well,
it's like when you say in the book you talk
about how you like I knew when I was four
years old, and it's like that knowingness, and then you
use the language of like, you know, tearing off your
own skin, like that idea to me feels like when
there's such a strong knowingness inside, knowing is different to feeling.

(16:35):
And it sounds like when I was reading, I was like,
there was just knowingness and I was intrigued as to
is that the right language? Do you agree with that?
And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling,
because I think knowing is so much more of this
like visceral, deep grounded rooting feeling.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, I mean I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated
to a degree and connect I mean, I think at
those which are some of my earliest memories, like these
moments that were just always like right under the surface,
was so much of how I felt at that age
and who I knew myself to be, and how perplexed

(17:18):
I was at how the.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
World was seeing me. And then.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
And when I was about ten, sort of like kind
of like pushing my mother to the degree that I
was like really actually getting to present how I wanted
and like remembering just how good that felt and the
solidness and this way I could could exist in the
world without the similar feelings that I had as a

(17:46):
full blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off
that I was feeling at really young ages and not
obviously having the words for but in some ways they're
like no, wait, I did have the words for them.
I was going, this is who I am and want
to be, and these are the things that I want
to wear and how I want to look and present.
And you had people going you know No, I'm sorry

(18:09):
you know. So in some ways they're like, wait, no,
I did have the words, and also I guess I
did to a degree in my twenties, and same thing.
People are going, no, you can't do that. You have
to do this if you want a future in this industry,
for example, or you have to be closeted or what
have you. So I think for me, the knowing and

(18:31):
the feeling relate. The knowing and feeling good about the
knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel
that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with what you've
been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting
treated versus who you know you are. Then when that's

(18:52):
heightened and like you're losing the sense of the knowing,
that's when all these awful feelings come up and the
manifestation and the consequences that are self harm obviously, mental
health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So
I suppose they entwine in that way.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious as to friends that you've
had in the community who may have been more limited
by those statements or that pushback or that judgment how
have you been able to talk to others in the community.
What have those conversations look like when they're at their

(19:34):
healthiest and at their best.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Gosh, well, I'd say those conversations are crucial, right, I'd
say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even
here and able to exist, and a lot of those conversations,
and it goes both ways. In the conversations, is someone

(20:01):
speaking to something that might be a thought or a
feeling that you thought you were alone with because we
obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation.
And when you are able to connect with someone that's
having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone,
that have filled you with shame potentially or put you

(20:23):
into a sense of hiding.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Is the.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by
any means, but when you're able to speak to someone
else who's also maybe had the similar feelings when they
were for who's maybe had similar manifestations of their pain,

(20:54):
I suppose you feel less alone. You are then in
a position where you know I can offer support, and
support has been offered to me from so many trans
people that I'm close to and people I've never met
whose books I've read, you know, who've deeply inspired me.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So, yeah, were there any particular books or people that
you didn't know that you came across that you think
you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt
were powerful for you while you obviously now that your
book's going to play the same role for so many others.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
Gosh, I mean so many. And then yeah, some people
I know, some I don't. And also a couple of
books I've read recently. Actually, Travis Alabanza's book that came
out in the UK comes out here I think next month,
called None of the Above is just.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
Astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Them, No, No, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Also a British book called A trans Man Walks into
a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas. Stunning book anyway, I
just sort of like just read those. Oh, I just
read a collection of I don't know if you're familiar
with lou Sullivan. They've published like massive amount of his
diaries which I just read, and that was atually quite

(22:13):
an interesting read because at first you're reading someone's diary
like it is very I did this, then I met
this person, and then you really get into the flow
of it, and it's very you know, it's beautiful. It's
emotional and intense. And Janet Mark's books which are stunning.
Those I read probably around the age of thirty, Thomas

(22:33):
Page mcbee's book Amateur and man Alive.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I'm blinking, no, I mean, you've given us a great list.
That's a phenomenal list to even get started with. And
it's it's incredible to hear how much you know, I mean,
you were just reeling off of book names there, but
it's like some mu's deep study of you know, did
you ever keep a diary or during this time, or
a journal or anything at all all over your time

(23:00):
or was this something that was all happening in your mind?

Speaker 3 (23:03):
Ultimately mine, for the most part, they were little.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
I did go like hunting and h for any kind
of old writing from whatever age, and I found some
things as a teen, late teens, and like little things
from in my twenties and did kind of regret not
writing more because a lot of those were really helpful

(23:27):
and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back, So no,
not so much, but yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
You'd recommend it as a yes, as a practice.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
And I keep meaning to do it, and I thought even.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Maybe I like I wrote a book. Book tour was
a lot. I'm like, I'm just taking a moment and
then all I think that's fair. Back into the writing flow.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, I think that's completely fair. Books and book to us,
it's almost like you finish writing a book and you
think the job's done, and then it's like just started
and it's yeah, no, completely completely understand that you You
were saying that, you know, and I liked how you
were thinking that through you I actually did have the
right words at four and then at ten. And I
wonder how many young people are going to have the

(24:07):
same conversation with their parents in the next few years.
I think, you know, we're going to have more parents
hearing the words that you used to from their children.
What do you think would be a healthy response from
parents that you think would be helpful or that you
would encourage so that they could be able to better
stay connected to their children as they're going on their

(24:30):
own journey.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
I think you really need to just listen to your
children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing. Shame
them or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow
a child the space to explore, you know, I mean,
even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself,

(24:54):
the things I'd internalized. And I remember this moment which
when people say things like what do you say to
young people who might be struggling or people are struggling?
Is I went from oh am I the oh I
don't know, oh, to well, wait, why does this energy
need to be this way? Why can't I just be

(25:15):
going huh hmm, yeah, maybe I am. Maybe y'all go
and find someone and finally sit down and really commit
to speaking about this and how I'm feeling in my
relationship with my gender in my body because I'm not okay,
And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak

(25:37):
to this and explore this? And I think in so
many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness
and listening and educating yourself. You know, there is a
lack of information and there isn't a tremendous amount of
lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our health care,
particularly about health care for youth. So also try and

(25:57):
educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and also
care that's supported by every major medical institution in the
United States.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Could you exp and, if this is your field of knowledge,
could you expand on some of those lives or some
of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare,
because I think that would be really useful if you
feel comfortable to you.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
I mean, I can, I can do my best, I
guess yeah, But I mean the idea that children's bodies
are being mutilated flat out liy just literally not true.
The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, Nope, They've been
used for decades for children who have precocious puberty. And

(26:46):
this care is sort of framed as something that's like
very easily accessible and immediate.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Not the case at all.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Most trans people are have an incredibly difficult time access
and care. It's not how it's being framed in terms
of this as if it's getting like pushed. It's like
the opposite. And this is like a very thorough patient

(27:16):
process that deeply involves the parents of course, and so
much of the care for children or you know, young kids,
it's just about supporting them, supporting a social transition potentially,
you know, name change, program change, how they might want
to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very you know,

(27:40):
basic aspects of you know, how we exist an how
we're alive. And then you know, the moment a child
starts to show any sort of characteristic of puberty, that's
when the conversation weighed out, conversation with all the information
everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop and then
you know, if that's the choice or continue potentially to hormones.

(28:05):
And then when we're talking about any kind of you know,
surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age
of typically eighteen, in some cases sixteen.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
But so.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
I guess that's like the bulk of what I see
is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or
brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite. Actually,
you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bully deal
with disproportionate violence, so so much of that is just

(28:44):
just literally not true.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right, Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's
it's useful because, yeah, I think that the challenges with
with all of this is, like you said, there's so
much information that it's hard for misinformation and information that
it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively,
and we hope that these conversations like this can lead

(29:08):
to people doing their own research, finding the right sources
so that they can actually be able to make sense of,
you know, something that they may not understand, as well
as opposed to having an assumption based on broad generalized
headlines or.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
We're just seeing people that have no I'm always like, oh,
I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not
talking about any other sort of medical care in this
way when it's supported by every major medical institution in
the United States.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah, what do you think trans men can add to
the conversation of masculinity or add to the thoughts and
belief system orund masculinity. Love to hear your perspectives on that.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
I think we can add something.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
I believe too.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas H. McBee
is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what
it means to be a man, the man he wants
to be.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
What have you beautiful book? I think you'd love it.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
I know I've had a lived experience of being perceived
as not a man, of course, and also the sort
of brief experience of like entering that space and like
getting sort of treated in a different way or in
many ways, I feel so much for CIS men being

(30:31):
brought up and the limits put on them emotionally encouraged
to be, you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness
on some level or what have you just ingrained misogyny.
Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer phobic society,

(30:53):
transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my
life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I
personally wouldn't want to be And I suppose trans man
trans mask people can come to the table with with

(31:18):
those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight
that's different, or I hope for CIS men in so
many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing
emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men
and all these things that seem to happen that are.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Toxic.

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(33:12):
there's become such a pressure as well to just play
the role of protector and provider and that stoic kind
of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress, and
that comes with its own form of limits to the
human experience to self expression to you know, I've always

(33:35):
found personally because I was raised by my mom growing
up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her
pain and her challenge and just her resilience, and then
also with a younger sister, it was I found that
very useful because I grew up in an environment that
was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and

(33:59):
expressing emotion. And I often think about it, if I
didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I
would have got that from in my life. And that's
interesting to think about, Like how I could have grown
up and never had that compass it would it would
never even have come across me. Where else would I
have learned that? I wouldn't have definitely wouldn't have learned
it at school, Definitely wouldn't have learned it at college

(34:22):
and then in the world of work, I definitely would
have learned it either, so you could literally spend your
whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced
expressions which are so key. Are there any specific interactions
you've had or moments you've had where this kind of
experience has been heightened or some of the things you
mentioned that you felt like, oh wow, this was really

(34:46):
powerful for someone or something.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations
with since men that I hadn't had before, Like it
created an opening and I'd be quite frankly empathy because
I've had not great experiences with men, and it's easy

(35:08):
to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know, I
think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about
how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or
have close relationships with other men, or you know, a
sort of a certain age where emoting or self expression

(35:31):
in that way is not seen as a positive and
if anything, you know, aggression is more you know, celebrated
or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and
obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that
are just more you know, subtle, but like men who
used to do I hadn't seen them for a while.

(35:51):
We used to hug and then now where like there's
no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little things,
I'm like, wow, that's fascinating, you know, you know, even
myself at the very beginning, like going having these like
really brief moments like oh should I talk with my hands?
Lest like what elliot did that thought? Actually just enter

(36:13):
your brain. No, be exactly who you are. But it
highlighted something that, even just in that tiny amount of time,
something in me was starting to judge myself about how
I was going to be as the man that I
am I'm going to grow up to be. And it's

(36:35):
you know, it's it's sort of embarrassing to admit, but
feeling those those sort of yeah pressures or misguided.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Thoughts.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite
meaningful conversations with with male friends that we hadn't really
had before.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, and they probably haven't had before.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
And I think, and then I will say one thing, Yeah,
I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone. And
as someone who's literally jokes on me going through purity again,
I will say, like, I'm not more angry and the
least angry I've ever been. It doesn't like I think,
you know, we're not taking into account the degree of
socialization and and like toxic limitations that encourage you know,

(37:24):
a lot of the behavior and issues we see with
toxic masculinity.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Another challenge that you've raised in the book. You said,
research has shown that transgender and gender on conforming youth
are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.
That obviously creates its own complexity. What was the what
is the research point to is the reason behind that
and and how people can find support around that, especially
with that complication.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, gosh, I mean I'm not obviously like a professional.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Gives some exact Yeah, what have you come across my question?

Speaker 1 (37:55):
I mean, from my experience, it's you know, a profound
discomfort in the body of one leant to have a
sense of control. For me, in some ways, I think
to being smaller about it looked more boyish when I
was that. You know, so this sort of way of
like literally controlling the body and also just the sort

(38:17):
of you know, sort of psychically mentally, so much of
your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think
it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to
think about other things, to contemplate other things.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
You talk about in the book about how like your
thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time.
And I guess that now that you're able to not
have to contemplate those same thoughts almost like what we're
talking about the beginning, about the thoughts about the future
and the thoughts about it being impossible. What now that

(38:51):
you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back,
what would that now be? What are you directing that towards?
What opportunity is that opening or where you able to
spend that goat Power wrote a book.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, I wrote a Yeah, I wrote a book. I
mean I make you know, for fun, like music with
a friend. It's actually hard to describe when it's literally
now every aspect and every moment of my life, you know,
Like when people go, oh, what was your last incident
of like gender euphoria, I'm like, oh, this morning when
I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able

(39:27):
to sit and have my coffee doing things in the
past that like I did enjoy but a part of
me wasn't there. So it could just be going to
meet some friends in the park, and I'm really able
to just be in the park with them. I'm not
thinking about, oh, well are they gonna did I eat?

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Well?

Speaker 1 (39:49):
You only ate this much time ago, and oh my god,
I'm so uncomfortable and chucking down my shirt and looking
and just kind of wanting to get out, always like
always wanting to just this sense of always wanting to flee.
And now sometimes, of course there's moments where I'm like,
I'd really love to just be home reading a book
right now. I mean like, I'm not like, it's not

(40:10):
like I'm like Johnny's social all of a sudden, but
going from having like a very difficult time being social
and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed
in life versus struggling to know how to live it.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Well, that definitely registers hearing, that definitely hits. Thank you
for explaining that. When you went on the book tour
and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book.
What's been what have been the responses that have really
warmed your heart or that have really connected to you
in a way that are going to stay with you
for a long long time, either on tour or I'm

(40:47):
sure you've had so many people write to you because
of the book and write to your team and everyone else.
What are some of the what are some of those
that you could tell us now, especially now that the
book's been out for a while, guessing it's only getting
more and more.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah, I think the most moving.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
And beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it all
ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you
know now feel less alone, helped them talk to their
parents in a new way, helped them feel carry less shame.

(41:30):
Write a letter from someone who was they might have
I might have been, you know, fifty, and they'd read
the book and then like, you know, finally I had decided,
yes I'm going on testosterone and just saying like how
much that decision had changed their life. And I fully

(41:54):
was like crying when I read this. I was just
so well thankful that they'd want to, you know, share
that with me. And also to know that anything you
could have done or expressed would help someone feel less alone,
because I know how alone you can feel, I know
how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self

(42:20):
hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body,
and what it means when you do get those moments
of clarity and feel connection. As I've said, I've had
that with books I've read or you know, friendships and
what community communities offered me.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
So those are beautiful moments.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
And then even you know, a friend of mine whose
trans mask and they their mom read the book and
like a couple days and they said, I'm now having
conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before.
It's I mean, at the end of the day, like
that's the point. I mean, that's really the point. It's like,

(43:02):
why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing?
Like sometimes I feel like, leading up to it coming out,
I'm like, oh my god, why'd you write about that?

Speaker 2 (43:11):
You know?

Speaker 1 (43:13):
And then when you have those moments that you know
it could be helping someone, it's just like to me,
that's the point.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, did you encounter anyone that initially may have been,
you know, in their own way, initially critical or judgmental,
and then was able to kind of even just sit
with you and hear from you, or and was able
to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey.

(43:44):
Did you come across any of that or hear about
any of those types of stories from anyone?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I mean, I suppose people, I don't know if you know,
the individual went on like some huge art change of
things that it enabled them to think about and understand
and the experience a bit more. And actually in so
many ways that I think so special is how much
they also related to it despite having a very different experience,

(44:11):
you know, not being trans, and how did they relate
to what was they related it being you know, ciste
and gay and so obviously there's going to be like
overlap there, but had maybe they did have their certain
feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really
did help, you know, their mind changed too, it agree.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
I'm so glad that. I mean, there's so many books
that you mentioned today that I want to read and
I know that you know, our community is hopefully going
to read Pageboy as well after this. But it's fascinating
to me just how how we all became trained in
different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to
experiences that you would hope we would have become more

(44:55):
curious to learn about and more open to learn about.
And it's it's fascinating to me as a SIS society
howp we've become more and more close minded about so
many issues as opposed to being broad minded when it
obviously makes sense. To be open minded about things makes
us a healthier, happier, more growth focused human. And for me,

(45:16):
I've always talked about how I think the best thing
that happened to me is I met people who were
very different to society when I was young. And when
I said different, I mean for me, it was meeting
spiritual monks like that was my personal journey and so
meeting a monk at eighteen years old was so random
to my life's journey that it was great because it

(45:39):
presented a whole new way of thinking, an ideology that
I would never have ever thought could even be possible,
and it became such a big part of my life.
And I just I'm hoping that you know, stories like
yours and stories like this will continue to help people
open up their minds to recognize how much there is
in common that we have and how much much there

(46:01):
is in common experience that we can learn from and
be guided by. Even if it's not the same experience.
Would that be an accurate mission statement a part of
the mission statement?

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Absolutely ideally, Yeah. And I mean I, you know, like
memoir in particulars I read a lot of and love
and so much of it are you know, stories that
are very different than mine, and people with different experiences
and identity and what have you that have deeply touched

(46:33):
me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed
me to grow and expand. And we're all learning all
the time, you know, and it's it's beautiful to have
the space or you know, to help create the space
on any level that allows people to grow and expand
in that way.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
How's your perspective on love changed? And the area of your.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Life definitely very different now than I was in before.
I was very much which I think is maybe relatively
evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogenist
and just like really did find it so hard to
exist and function that I I do think I needed

(47:19):
someone like I And the moment there was like attraction
or a feeling. It's just sort of like, oh, you know,
like and like hold on tight, you know, and staying
in situations that I'm sure a lot of people. Again,
this is something that so many people would relate to
in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably

(47:40):
weren't great for either party involved, and that came from
really just not knowing how to exist by myself and
the feeling of love right ooh, that's like like we escape.
It's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it's and

(48:01):
that feeling would give me a spark of life. It
would give me a moment of I can breathe. Ultimately,
though that's not the reason why I think we should
be with someone, and it's tad selfish.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
On my part.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
And now I am so blown away by the fact
that I can be alone like that is such an
exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling away I never
thought was possible that Right now, I'm very much enjoying

(48:37):
being you know, connecting with people, having some fun, but
just sort of being on my own right now, and
that is very new for me, very new for me.
And I want love in a relationship to be you know,
I mean, our stuff's always going to follow us into

(48:58):
intimate relationships, I know it, you know, come from a
solid and embodied foundation where I know, I'm going into
that because we're going to love each other and explore
life together and grow together, and not because I'm clinging
to something for dear life.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
That sounds like it must be such a such a.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
So I'm single.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I love it. That's brilliant. I was about to say, like,
just how meaningful that must feel? Like, you know it
must be. It sounds like such a profound place that
you know, it's such a deep space to feel that
scentedness and stillness in being with oneself and that confidence

(49:49):
of just just being in oneself. But you're single, So
that's we're going to throw that out there. How do
you think the journey And of course you know the communities,
the transc community so well, so you would know how
how do you think the journey is different when you
are in the public eye versus when you're not, Like
there are the obvious differences, of course we've talked about
like the pressure from successive movies and things like that,

(50:12):
But are there any more nuanced to subtle things that
some of us could miss in plain sight because you're
not living that journey or you're not seeing.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
It, don't know.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
I mean, it's so funny because it's just like my
strange experience in this life. I mean maybe in that
you're just going through this transition in front of a
lot of people and having people speculate or make comments

(50:44):
or assumptions about your life and your experience that can
often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning. And at the same time,
everything everything's like you know, relative, everyone's sort of having
that in their own individual orbit. And my position of
comes with such an enormous amount of privilege, like my
life does not reflect the lives of most trans people

(51:10):
who deal with you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence,
et cetera, particularly black trans people. So I'd be lying
if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort
of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges

(51:31):
or difficult moments. And at the same time, what I
always go back to is the degree in which my
privilege and resources help and also protect me. You know,
if I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security,
I could get you know, pay for surgery to get

(51:54):
it quickly. You know, all of these aspects that name change,
you know, think about that all those documents, you're you know,
you're passwords, like all of these things that for those
that you know don't have the certain privileges and resources
I have, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, and I'm glad you raised that point, because yeah,
I think, yeah, we have we have to also look
at it from that perspective of just again going back
to the reality of what these choices and decisions like
actually look like in the real world, because similar and
I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking

(52:34):
at it from well, this is what it actually looks like,
this is what's actually going on, this is this is
what we may not see if we're only looking at
the you know, the And again that doesn't take away
from your journey as well, like that that shouldn't take
away from the challenges and stresses and the realities of
what you're experiencing. But I wanted to pivot to certain
things because I feel like, I feel like the book

(52:56):
is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible
adventures of what you're going to do and achieve. And
I heard that you're a big history buff and I'm
guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder
whether there's any has there been, and you talked about
even just I love what you've been saying that just
and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it

(53:18):
really the way you express this is really going to
stay with me. This idea that the biggest win is
just you being able to do the simplest things in
a present way like that will stay with me so
much because it's something that we all take for granted
so much, like you know you just I know I

(53:40):
do like so it's a very easy thing to miss
out on and some of us are not even present,
but even if we are present, we take that for granted.
And so the idea that you feel so much present
in just having coffee this morning, or like reading a book,
or being with friends in the park or what you know,
all those examples you were giving, Yeah, I wanted to

(54:01):
dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader,
when did you become such a history buff and what
has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of
brought you joy?

Speaker 3 (54:11):
I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Or anything else, any anything you're reading.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Oh, lately I've been reading Octavia Butler because I embarrassed
to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before, so I
just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess obviously those
books have a fantastical sort of history, but obviously a
very intense history element to it, you know, particular, you know,

(54:38):
Wild Seed and Kindred a very brutal history.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
I'm reading more novels lately.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but
also Our Wives under the Sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's
new novel I'm trying to called The Last Americans. It
might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel
was amazing, so less like history.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Specific, but it's all history.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
But obviously there's historical elements and a lot of the
those different things, not really the Brandon Taylor one.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the other ones. Yeah, no, no, And
and I think that that is the point where, like
I think biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all have
historical elements to them. I mean, that's that's where they
come from. And one part that felt very journal like
in your book was at the end of the book,
you described being at the show with Mark and having

(55:39):
a moment of self love that you wanted to hold
onto and you say, taking a deep breath, exhaling, exhaling
down to my toes. I wanted to hold onto the feeling,
to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self love.
And I thought that felt very diary like, like, it
felt very like journal thought is you know, very unique words.
And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose

(56:01):
to end the book at sixteen years old? Like again
we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on
that after going through this journey back and forth? What
was it? What was so? Yeah, why end on sixteen
years old?

Speaker 3 (56:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Well, I felt like sort of began the book at
this time that was also involved Mark, and was this
period of feeling more self love, feeling closer to myself,
falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then

(56:40):
you know that leading up to a moment that was
a big pivot in my life, and then to sort
of you know, bookend that with this moment sixteen Peaches Concert,
what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been
in at that point in my life and the just

(57:05):
palpable joy, the electricity of it, and I'll never forget
that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and
what that felt like, what that community felt like. And
to end on that note there at sixteen, having that

(57:27):
atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired
me since I was a teenager, it felt like a
special moment to end on.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Yeah, I definitely felt it, and it's wonderful to have
that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment.
And you know, Elliott, I just want to say how
honestly I was so excited to meet you today and
do this interview. And I love it when this happens,

(57:58):
when you get an experience that you didn't know you
were going to get. And that's how I feel with
you today, where you can always intellectualize what you think
you're going to learn or what you think you're going
to gain, and I had all those ideas, which I
definitely have learned so much. It's not that I haven't learned,
but it's I've kind of been moved more internally. And
I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's

(58:21):
something that I can express from a deep place within myself.
And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing
your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but
also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.
And I only have a couple more questions for you.
We asked at the end of every interview to a
final five, which is a fast five in the sense

(58:44):
that they have to be answered in one word to
one sentence maximum. But I always ruin it because I'm
so intrigued by all my guests. But I'll try so,
Elliott Paige, these are your final five. The first question
is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
And it can be about any topic you choose it
to be about.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
You know what.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
I don't know why this is popping into my brain,
but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like,
why not go with this. And the time in that
period when everyone sort of go to was your dream's
coming true, Your dream's coming true, Your dream's coming true,
Kate Winslet said to me. And I was still am
obsessed with Kate Winslet love one of just my favorite

(59:24):
actors of all time, and I was too shy to
go up to her at this party or something. It
would have been the first time that she just came
up to me and was like, obviously, it took me
a long time to listen to the advice properly, but
she was just like, don't let them change you, like,
don't like you hold on to yourself. Essentially, don't let

(59:48):
this and I'll never forget it. Who was I think
the only person in who that whole period basically said
anything like that, you know from that, and I've always
remembered it and always meantal art to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
I think that's a great answer, And yeah, what a
beautiful stament. Don't let them change you, hold on to yourself.
That's that's beautiful. Okay, great. Second question, what is the
worst advice you've ever heard or received? Sure this is.

Speaker 5 (01:00:13):
Easier, Yeah, yeah, don't be Yeah, don't tell people you're
queer and disguise yourself too to trick them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Yeah, even those words disguise yourself to trick them and
say it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
A trick, which is just so silly too, as if like,
so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress, like what
are we like just the binary asthma. It's just ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah, what are we trying to so boring? Question number three,
what is something you used to value that you no
longer value?

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
I think like a certain idea what we envision success
to be. You know, that's not really that important to
me anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier,
the idea that you were willing to let it all go,
if you were allowed to be who you are and
be totally Yeah, it's like not what success means to me.
Question number four, what is something that you're currently trying
to unlearn?

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that
was projected onto me by those around me, society obviously
in a so much better place, Like so much of
it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know,
still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings

(01:01:44):
that make you feel small.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
And fifth and final question. We asked this to every
guest who's ever been on the show, and I'm really
intrigued to hear your answer. If you could create one
law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
would it be? Kind you can take your.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Time that everybody had to follow. Don't be a bully.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
That's a good one.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Bullying is outlined.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Yeah, any terrible bully. Yeah, I think that's a good law. Yeah,
there's a rule. It needs to become a law. Yeah,
I love it, Elliott. Page Everyone in the book is
called a page boy a memoir. If you haven't read
it already, highly recommend it. Read it for your own education,
share it with friends, make your next book club pick

(01:02:35):
to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the
communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey.
And I'd love you to share with me and Elliott
the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you.
There were so many things that I felt and experienced
through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me.
And i'd love to see. I know that you're phenomenal

(01:02:57):
at doing this, You're phenomena that doing edits and on
TikTok and Instagram and x and I'd love to see
what are those moments in this interview and conversation that
are going to stay with you and that you're going
to pass on to others. Elliott, thank you so much
for your time, your energy, your presence today. Like I said,
I will take this experience around and share it with

(01:03:19):
many people, because it's an experience that have really felt
deeply through your words and through your presence today, and
so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number
one feeling I'm having is I wish the world could
feel what I'm feeling right now, because so often I'm
feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the

(01:03:43):
trauma that people like yourself are experiencing, and could experience
your humanity in the way that I'm experiencing, then maybe
we wouldn't treat each other that way. Then maybe we
wouldn't speak to each other that way, that maybe we
wouldn't impact each other in that negative way. I'm really

(01:04:04):
thankful I got to spend this time with you, and
I really hope that more and more people get to
experience you through your book and through your work so
that they two can understand more about themselves and more
about you. So thank you, so.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Much, thank you so much. Thank you really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my
conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how
to be confident from the inside out.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for
five minutes. It was already tough for me to love
my body, but after the C section scarf with all
the stretch marks. Now I'm looking at myself like I've
been hacked. But day three, when I did it, I
was like, you know what, her thighs are cute

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Jay Shetty

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