April 24, 2025 • 56 mins
It turns out that Americans have been pretty well misinterpreting Smiths songs for quite a long time now. On this episode our guest, comedian and South London native Shem Pennant, leads a seminar on The Smiths and their iconic 1986 album, The Queen Is Dead.
Shem offers much needed context to the album, explains why the Smiths’ phenomenon was so uniquely British, and why he doesn’t let Morrissey’s post-Smiths political statements detract from his enjoyment of the band's music.
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Subscribe so you don't miss an episode!
Shem offers much needed context to the album, explains why the Smiths’ phenomenon was so uniquely British, and why he doesn’t let Morrissey’s post-Smiths political statements detract from his enjoyment of the band's music.
Connect with us via Instagram at @AtFirstListen podcast!
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to at first listen to the music podcast for
people who don't always get the hype want to.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique, and our guest today is Shem
Pennant from UCB. Hello, bringing the energy.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah, it's going to be like this for like an hour.
Well done.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shem is caffeinated, I can confirm.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
In every sense of the one.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So I'm very excited about today's episode because for his episode,
Shem chose the Smiths the Queen is Dead album. And
I meant to prove this to you, Dominique, but when
we started the podcast, I made a Google Drive Excel
sheet whatever their version of Excel is called. I forget
(01:02):
the British version of the Google version of it, and
one of the first artists I put on that list
was the Smiths. I find the Smiths to be so interesting.
I would say that I like them. I don't take
them particularly seriously as I think the og Smiths fans do.
(01:28):
I've met Johnny Marr through this job. Wonderful guy. Could
not be nicer. I've never met Morrissey, but well I've
heard things.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The opposite description, right, mostly is a problem for Smith's fans.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, a problematic figure for sure. So sham, let's just
start by, why don't you tell us why you chose
the Smiths here? Uh well, basically I listened to you
were not prepared for that question.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I this is still an act. I'm always ready. I came.
I listened to a lot of like weird stupd soteric
music or like old like nineties jungle, or like weird
like angry noise, and like that is fun and very
much a part of my identity, but also not like
handy to like to like like, I see you don't
(02:21):
really has like lyrics up on the page, and you
would just have like screams incomprehensively. And I'll bring something
that people might have heard of I have some connection to.
And I remember I was in as is the right
of passage from most Smith's fans. I was just a
sad child in high school. Someone handed me a casette
(02:43):
with like a bunch of Smith's songs on it, and
I was like, Okay, this is my personality. Now, this
is great, Like someone gets it and it's just been
with me ever since, and like it's really been wild
to like watch their journey through the public consciousness, but
very much like a connection like hitting it at the
exact white age when if you are a sad fourteen
(03:04):
year old, this this is the perfect music that sort
of can stay with you to when you are like
sad in your twenties, thirties and forties, if you like
coming at as an adult. I fully understand nonsense, but
it's very much like embedded into like encapsulating a lot
of the feelings and frustrations of youth with a lot
(03:25):
of like cultural context. All whine on the bat length later.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So you're also from England? Are you from Manchester as well?
Not the slightest I'm very much from like South London, but.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Like it's like it's very it's weirdly very it's like
very like working class music, but in not in the
way of like, oh, grizzling, we're from the streets or whatever,
but more and it's the products of like the eighties
where it was where it's from was they would have
there's a dolt what you could be unemployed or like
(04:01):
working class but still have access to like a lot
of literature and education libraries with THEE museums are free.
It was like fine to be wellware and sort of literate.
So there's a whole like traditional sort of anti authoritarians
and well educated but like still like very like entrenched
working class commentary and art that's like not just talking
(04:22):
about struggle, but there can be like whimsical that can
be creative, and I can comment on things in like
really fun expressive ways, and it also comes out like
the folk music tradition, which is like big in the UK. Obviously.
The best example of that I can always point to
is a band called Half Man Half Biscuits, who are
like northern aggressively working class but like really smart, really
(04:44):
focused and about bringing like joy to mondanity and struggle.
As a like working class kid from South London, I
just related a lot to that context.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Wow, that's a really good answer.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And indeed the Smiths are a well read group, but
perhaps to well read.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Well depends what they're reading. I yeah, I definitely.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I you were not enthused about them.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
No, this was my least favorite choice. But you know
what someone said about doing the thing that scares you.
I think Batman said that.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yes, Sir Batman is a very loved motivational speaker. One
of the things I will say is that bands like
this have just very annoying fans who just ruin the
music for almost everybody like the smith Like I grew
up loving like it, I go loving like Red in
your Head, annoying fans Aphex Twin, the worst fans like
(05:41):
almost anything where you can go. I'm actually quite smart
because I get it. And this is like the peak
of that kind of music. If you have to interact
with anybody who like loves the Smiths, I can understand
like immediately wanting to hate them. I hate Smith's fans,
and I have been one for like half my life.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well, emo teenage boys are often not the most fun people.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The greatest cultural ambassy.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and I think that, Yeah, there there was always
like I was the emo teenage girl when the boys
were listening to this. I just I literally just like
never engaged with it. And I feel I engaged with
other tangential type of sounding things. But this, this Holden
(06:30):
Callfield kind of vibe. That's what I get from this
of just like nobody understands. I just I'm just seeing
things you don't see, and you guys are mean.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, And I think that's definitely what a lot of
fans take away, which is like a shame because it was.
It's it's less the fans definitely give off the energy,
but I think intrinsic to their music is such a
sense of humor and like playfulness. It's like, oh, I'm
miserable and life terrible. They're smiling and they're be like
playful and silly. When you like see visually who they
(07:03):
are and like how they present themselves. It's so ridiculous
that they would even the audacity of like a bunch
of like miserable dandies from like a hard working class
town saying we're pop stars and is just so anti
everything that's going on at the time, and very much
a reaction to a lot of the big, like glossy
eighties production that was happening. That they were really cool,
(07:25):
and then their fans are all like, I'm just gonna
double down on the miserableness of it all. As a comedian, like,
I love how funny and playful and creative a lot
of their tracks are, and like I use that in
like comedy rather than my miserable talking to girls at.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Okay, that's a that's inspiring. I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I do appreciate the context though, like the Smiths are
a band from the eighties, and when when you think
of like eighties music, you think of like the big
colorful pop stars, the big hero and the neon everything,
whereas the Smiths like black and white, long song titles,
poetry quote unquote poetry. It was very counterculture in that
(08:12):
respect at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Even like the most problem his whole thing is like
he cannot sick and he doesn't even try to, and
that's very funny to like even like and even he's
trying to, like do like a normal song, he will
just sort of howl in Yeppie's way, and like that
visitationally takes a lot of the seriousness out of what
he's saying a lot of times, or like puts it
in like a fun context when like they will then
(08:36):
be sandwiched between like big like see like serious acts.
It was like a very fun thing for me.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And the music is all very jaunty and very positive sounding.
A lot of major keys and big pretty chords and
Johnny Marr, who I mentioned earlier, that's the guitar player
for anybody you know, with a lot of it is
his arranging and his probably roots in like the and
loving the Beatles, and then the you know British like
(09:06):
folk music tradition that she referred to earlier.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, he's like really into Bert Yans and pentangle, and
then he has a lot of like folk like fingerpicking
like techniques and styles. He's a really incredible guitar that
I hate people sound so dumb talking about music, which
is a whole premise of but like he's such a creative,
(09:29):
wonderfully like diverse like guitar player. And he'll like have
like some like sort of very like standard like sounds.
Sometimes he'll like do something that feels like really like
creative and like sunk. The texture sometimes will be like
funky or like weird, like he and he just always
folds it into sounds. So he has this really creative
approach to guitar playing that was like really picked up
(09:50):
by people like grah and Cotton from Blur had that
like same approach of like gonna take the sounds and
like recreate them in my own image. My favorite example
of that is this Charming Man, which is like very
much influenced by Ghana and high life. They say that,
people go, oh, yeah, I see that, but it's normally
it's just like a weird sounding way of making the
Western pop song versus Vampire Weekend where they're like, oh,
(10:11):
we're just ripping off this sound, like putting like some
music over it, and he's more, I'm hearing this thing
and than I'm like overlaying it and creating a fun
take on it. Or also how seen it's now come
from like a rockabilly like like that rockabilly rhythm and
then drenched in like slapback, echo and reburb and all
these weird sounds, so it sounds like it's taken from
a thing that sounds so completely different in a really cool, crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The thing that I enjoy about listening to this band
is because, like I think I was at least thirty,
maybe in my late twenties before I ever actively tried
to listen to The Smiths. I'm sure i'd heard some
of their stuff before, but the thing I got out
of it was like, Oh, this is where all this
is like the favorite band of a lot of bands
(10:55):
that I grew up hearing. And that's one of the
things that you're if anyone out there hasn't listened to
The Smiths before, one of the things you'll get out
of one of their albums is where a lot of
new wave came from, where a lot of post punk
and emo later on came from was and goth stuff
(11:15):
was from the Smiths, and probably from this album specifically.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah, so I'm fascinated as like an adult with limited
tolerance for whiny sad boys. How hard were you rolling
your eyes?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I'm just locked in on anything you're saying.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But when you were like listening to this album where
you're like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Honestly, no, that's the thing, Like it's nice.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It's much more tolerable than you might think it is.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Exactly, Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It does sound so nice.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It sounds nice, and like I do I relate in
whatever type of like you know, human way. I think
it's like the mundane type of things he talks about
and combines it with his deep feelings like those are
those are real things. I think that's why I was like,
I was interested because it definitely is just like a
(12:14):
prejudice against Morrissey that's come from like people being like
he's an asshole.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And let's get into more of that after the break
and then we'll roll that into the track list on
this album.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
On at first listening, and we're back with a first, listen, I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Andrew, I'm Dominie, I'm still sham.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I've got back peptop. Now this is very excited pap.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Oh yeah, I'm talking about gets Stoke.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, well he's a thing. He's as quotes read interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
What's your favorite quote? Wait? What's your least favorite?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Is it that immigrants are destroying?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
That's what I have.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I mean it was implied definitely those poor BMP folks.
I mean, I mean, honestly, the way the world is now,
he's uh, he's probably going to have a researchence.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
But.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Like he had loads of little like Chris Gethard has
like the Mossey both the Morrissey signature and then it
takes strength to be gentle and kind as a tattoo
and like stuff like that. It was like, that's a
I think that's a cool thing for like a post
punk sort of new wave band who are like trying
to be pop stars, like saying it's not it's not
like be disaffected and be too cool to care. It
(13:38):
is like, you know, like it's okay to have feelings.
You can be sad, you can be fun, you can
have a spectrum of human emotions, You can be ambiguously sexual,
you can like do a lot of stuff that wasn't
like okay in the mainstream in the eighties, and that
was like I guess, pushing the message of like, hey,
if you're weird, it's all right. Nothing he said post
(13:59):
nineteen nine, I would like really back to your But
also I think if you are like a weird person
trying to be successful, you will struggle so much that
life will just make you a weird, gnulled human being.
So I have some forgiveness for people who I loved,
who like started in their like twenties, who have just
(14:20):
tried to survive in the business and have gone to
Lulu because it's like, yeah, like it will make you nuts.
I'm not successful and I'm going so like, I fully
understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
No, I definitely was feeling the Kanye vibes. You know,
don't say his name three times, but I know I
can't contextualize these lyrics with the guy who exists now,
Like there's really no reason, yeah to try to be
like okay, but why do you say that? Then you
(14:52):
said this gentle kind what happened to that guy? Because
like it's just a different guy and it's a different moment,
and he I assume he thinks he's kind. I think
most people see themselves as good. That's not to get
too big with the contents too early, But I was
able to connect with it in a way where I
(15:14):
was more it was it's sad that it's sad that
what did you call it? Becoming gnarled? It's sad that
people do that.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, But like I try to use that as like
an internal compass of like every time I feel myself
going girl the youth or whatever like about a thing,
I'm like, I try to be like, oh, don't turn
into like one of those like angry people ranting on
the internet. Like try to like have empathy or like
open your heart to why people are acting in the way.
My favorite actual Morrissey song lyric like locked me in
(15:44):
commediically to his tone. But I it's the corniest answer,
but I have to be honest and say that. When
I was fourteen and I heard the bridge from how
Soon Is Now, there's a club if you'd like to go,
and you might find someone who really loves you. So
you go and you stand in your and you leave
on your own and you go home and you cry
and you want to die. Like that to me was like, yeah,
(16:05):
this guy kids like because it's so over the top
and city and dramatic that I've both had those feelings,
but like explaining how those feelings feel so overblown that
like City was like, Oh, it just sort of punctures
a lot of the tension in the air, like oh
my god, no one loves me, blah blah blah. And
when he said I never had no where ever, it's like, oh, yeah,
I guess I do sound like a whiny baby, and
so like I do have my feelings, but like it's
(16:26):
someone who's like playfully acknowledging my feelings but smiling at
me and like saying it's what I don't worry about.
It was the message I took away from all that.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I'm totally picturing like that guy, some version of you
wherever in between you and Morrissey Stan is having that
experience at the club and there's like me trying to
flirt with you and you just like don't notice because
you're just like too busy being sad. You're like, yeah,
she was probably just she's she's just like not even
(16:55):
trying it. It's something else. She doesn't like me.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Actually, I mean I wish that were the case. I
done extensive research. I've asked everyone back in the day
and was interesting, i'ming back to check.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, that's that's good to know. No, but I mean
not to bring race into it, but like there is
there is like this element that he no like being
this whiny white boy who is like ultimately very conventionally
like attractive and like acceptable in the world, and that
(17:28):
like many disaffected youth who feel this like isolation and
it is different than being you know, black in a
predominantly white environment and like not getting flirted with by
the by the cuties.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Hey, I know about being black in the white environment
and not cuties come see at UCB. But uh to
that point, he was was also like uh, Irish and
like queer in like Manchester, and like that is like
it's not the same, but like it is like and vegan. Yes,
(18:04):
So like there were like slightly other identities that like
at the top again in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Were like people like, oh my god, wait, so he's
Irish because this is I'm like, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
English blood, Irish Irish blood, English heart or something like that,
like he has a song about it, like he has
like iris.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Where the trouble started for him is kind of around
the first Fu solo.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
The troubles famously with the Irish.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Yes, but yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That actually makes a lot of sense to me, Like
I feel like I understand Irish culture better than English culture.
And it's now knowing that I'm seeing that.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Have you seen the commitments? No, it's like you don't
have to. It's it's just a movie about like a
band in like Ireland. But in one part famously to me,
at least that he goes the blacks were like the Irish.
The blacks that he went the Irish were like the
black people of Europe. And as a black person in Europe,
I was like, and I didn't think he says black.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
People yeah yeah, wild no, yeah, but I was.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Like, like the way, but there's an other ness. Irish
identity in the UK is like so racist that they
like don't like other white people, Like they have aggressive
prejudice against people with ginger hair, like it's a it's
a it's a great place to grow up, but like
there was enough of another in your Scottish or well
hell yeah, which are all functioning the same, the literal
(19:34):
same fucking island.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They already they feel I know, hey, I tell my
Irish people out there, I know there is this like
this feeling of being very very othered. I feel like that.
It's like the cultural context of being other like in
their own land has been around for a long time
and so it's very entrenched in there in the culture
(19:58):
of Irish people.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
It's also interesting because like a lot of this stuff,
for like you can be like sad, like a lot
of sad boy content has now become like in cel Father,
which then makes it like harder to enjoy it. But
at the time we weren't doing that as much as
we were like just moping a little bit and like
drawing like sad things on like a textbook and biro.
(20:19):
It was less like aggressively that we didn't have the
internet to hate the women on, so like it felt
more contained in a way.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So Sham had no preferences as far as the track listening.
As I was scrubbing some of these songs, he would
pick up the lyric wherever in the song I started in.
So the first one Dominique singled out was frankly mister Shankily,
the second track from The Queen's Dead. It plays my way.
(20:54):
Shocking number of songs from this album begin with the
title lyric I disagree, Sham with your statement earlier that
Morrissey can't sing.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Because I disagree.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I think he has a beautiful voice, and I think
the thing that makes him so unique. And I don't
know when he started singing how that happened, but it
sounds to me like as a teenager he began singing
in a band and he referred back to his technique
(21:27):
from like choir as the only way he knew how
to perform the action of singing, and he just rolled
with it because nobody complained that much.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Now the I feel like the choir boy too pop
punk whatever. Like the Venn diagram is a circle, there's
a lot like speaking of you know, emo music continuing
through the ages. It's there's like that's one of the
funny things about it to me is they're like, God,
(22:02):
I'm just so different and sad, but then they're like
totally choir boys, and I can just see them where
they're like well out all.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But that's where I would, I think, draw the line
between emo and whatever. The Smiths is because the emo
kids listen to the Smiths and we're like, that is
exactly how I feel, yes, and I find no humor
in it, and that's how I will now create a
music career where the Morrissey's lyrics are clearly humorous and
(22:32):
meant to be satirical.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, the Franklin mister Shankly has like the great opening
line of Frankly Shankly, this position I feeled it pays
my way, but it corrodes my soul, which is like
such a overblown way of talking about a very real
like I hate working and it's great and like his
most one of his most famous though, it was I
quote to people all the time, it's from heaven. Those
are miserable now, whereas I was looking for a job
(22:56):
and then they found the job and heaven, those are
miserable now. And that is so like aggressively true to
this day, like that they really like resonate, but also
there's like a there's like a smile to them. It's
like what you're gonna do, which is like very Northern
British and sensibilities.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I want to try to find the very last lyric
of Frankly mister shankly, so bear.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
With us, for I realize you blood such bloody awful poetry.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I don't mean to be so.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Still, I must speak frankly. I'll give us money.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So good? What what made you choose that? To play that?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And I don't know? It routinely cracks me up this
listening to this band, which is why I maybe like it,
not not totally. I don't think I like it the
way I'm supposed to like it is. I guess myken
what is my can inflicted with it?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I think they would say, there's no way you're supposed
to like they They're very much like nonconformist in that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
So the next the extract dom make single that was
never had no one ever.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Before, play the Okay I just love like uh. The
opening title, the Queen is Dead, celebration of the monarch
being dead hugely a controversial thing. Like the title of
the album is like a massive like poke in the eye,
Sure was played a lot when she actually did die
very recently, like it still like remains in the public consciousness,
(24:47):
and it's like very like aggressively political, but like humorous
and like like is a nonsense like sent into Americans,
you're like, oh yeah, sure, sure, but like that was
like a real.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Like oh my god, that thank you for pointing that out,
because yes too Americans, that means literally nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
We do not care.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, we're like which queen did.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
But like to say, like I met in England, that's
a big difference.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I think it's like joking about killing the president, which
is a crime, so something I'm not doing.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
In like nineteen seventy seven, the sexpessials that God said
the queen they like it was like a huge affront
like decency and people were like scandalized by this was
the Smith had another song called Maggie on the Guillotine
about Margaret Thatcher being executed on the guillotine, again like
very like for its time, like a very like in
your face like punk statement, but in this like also playful, silly,
(25:38):
really orchestrated way, so it's very cool. And then to
track number three, I know it's over. It's like very
like modeling and like depressing and like like sort of
emo like mother, I can feel the soil falling over
my head, et cetera, but also has like great lines
like I feel so very funny, why You're on your
own tonight. I like, that's like such a like great
(25:59):
like thing that I think about with both a smile
and a smile on my face and the tear in
my eye every time I'm like feeling like abandoned or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Oh, we could talk about that song. I know it's over.
I was because I was thinking of that one, that
line that you said, I thought that. I also thought
that was really funny. And do you want to say
more about what he's like? What do you think he's
saying there?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
I don't. I have never once thought about what a
smooth song is like each I just let I mostly
listen to the things for music with lyrics, but like
every time a lyric jumps out, it strikes me just
like a fun interesting idea or like and the whole
track he's talking about like dying and like being buried
and like and like saying to his mother like his
life sob which is like very dramatic and sad, but
(26:49):
it is it just has all these like funny, like
whimsical like beats within that, which I think is like
such a cool thing.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Let me play a second. That's we're talking about it,
so right, So the song starts and he's already in
his grave, feeling the dirt being piled on top of him.
So it's like, how how easy is it to imagine
(27:16):
a teenager slamming their door and playing this song no,
And I.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Think that's that's one of the things that did make
me roll my eyes. And I do think there is
an amount of like American positivity culture that makes this
like rub me the wrong way, because I'm like, why
we gotta do that? Though, why we gotta be in
the grave. We're like right now, we're chilling.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
But then literally track three but like the but that's
so funny to like have like your track three being
like I'm mom, I'm Dell'm dead. I mean the grave
sol is pulling over me. And then he says, as
I climb into my empty bed, oh well enough said
I like that kind of that, like it's it's always
like a traumatic and then the puncturing of that like
emotion with like frivolity or like some witticism, and that's
(28:05):
what keeps. If it was all just like straight face sad,
I would have no attach to it. I have this
hard time in America because I am functionally British, so
I will like mumble and grow in a lot. If
you ask me, how am I doing, like my stand
up like that like that, and I'm fine. That means yeah, right,
everything's like okay. If you ask me show, I was like, oh,
that's awful. I'll just tell you the things that went wrong.
(28:27):
It's just my it's my love. Like like it's very
hard meeting such fun like upbeat positive people like yeah,
let's call, let's call. So yeah, it's it's it's you.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I am interested in this thing, like there's no pressure.
British people have no pressure for to be happy. Like
that's like here, It's like Americans were like, Live Left Love. Yeah,
you gotta at least try to be happy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
In the constitution it is.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think we the people Live Left Love.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It's fun because Dominique and I host the comedy show
together and then she'll be like, yeah, let's go, let's welcome,
and then we look back to recordings like her and
Justin's like Mike's like spiking in the red It's like
mine's not.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On yeah, and I do so. I like I think
that for that reason, I am I'm almost like the
soil falling over my head. Not only is it like
so sad and like it's not even sad, it's like
past sad. It's like nothing, which we're dead and I'm not.
(29:33):
It's so passive like I'm not die dead, I didn't die.
The soil is just falling on me and I'm just
here like.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'm so disaffected.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yes, I'll just all yeah, just bury me alive.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
And I think that that level of like almost theatricality
to how it's not just like I'm not sad, I'm invincible.
I'm fullorn, Like there's a bombas to the language that
like takes it out of like othing fus. Yeah, I
don't know. I can't remember the band, but there's a
punk band that's a car Went's not on the Monday morning.
(30:07):
Everything sucks today, Like it's just like very straightforward and
this is is is so like broken. It's like miss
missery that has like a joy to it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So do you want to talk about never had no
one ever? I think as intriguing and creative as Morrissey's
lyrics are, we should also think about when we listen
to the Smiths, where he sings and why, because where
he sings is pretty much fucking everywhere, Like no wonder
(30:43):
this band broke up because he kind of writes like
he doesn't realize that you don't need to sing or
have a lyric for every single moment on the red
Like how can you be in a band with this
guy for nine years and not be at some point
like hut the fuck up?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
It was less less time than that, even the short
space of time.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
The.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Prolific band for such a short period of.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Time, And that's not this is my least favorite track
on the album, but it is just there is a
minute of him just wailing yeah, and like it's like
almost like a very like long winded like joke of
like I like walked to the earth and they had
no one ever, no one ever loved me or touch me.
(31:31):
Cast your eyes away, about your eyes for my my
fassage show.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I hate to intrude, but I'm alone, just so you know,
like I'm alone, but not to bother you, but I'm
lonely and sad.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I mean, but that's that's the tone of it, Like
it's not serious.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, my best friend, the three other people in my
band all despise me.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Is that what it is? I'm like that I think
that's no. I mean I'm thinking about I'm thinking about
British humor, especially like I grew up watching like British
comedies from like the nineties and stuff, and this like
this as a joke is not something that I relate
to that much, but like I'm like, haha, that's so funny.
(32:16):
Are you good? Like I see it? I see it now?
What if I read it through that lens? But automatically
I think I I was just like what what?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Who?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
What?
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Who?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Who? Did you not?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Why did you not have? Because I'm googling, I'm like,
is how is his relationships?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
And you're like zero results found.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Well, it seems like he had good relationships with his
mom and with other people, and he in that day I.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Kept up he had like very famously ambiguous, would never
talk about it, and there was always like weird questions
of anti sexuality, which he like never addressed, like even
to this day, he like kind of like keeps everything
very quiet, which is like fun. And then also contextually
the joke to me of like that being like a
pop song that you expect people to like enjoy, like
(33:06):
just like putting out like with a straight faces, like
a supposedly commercial act. I'm just a sad, lonely boy
that eOne loves is like fun and world to me.
On an unrelated note, I am so stressed about how
low the battering or a laptop is.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh you let me worry about my battery.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
All right, all right, that's as good a place as
any to get Dominique a power chord and we'll be
back over the break camera back and ambress.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Listen, I mean, Andrew, I'm Dominique.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
I think she was the.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
First guest to jump in on that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, this man knows what
he's doing.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, really making the whole operation seem professional. We appreciate that.
So the next one don't wanted to talk about was
there was a light that never goes out? Of course,
that's I think the quote unquote hit from this record.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
This may be like one of their top songs.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, that's why I picked it.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Do you have a favorite song on this album?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Show? I love them all, really fond of Cemmetry Gates.
That one really speaks to me.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Will Does this mean anything to you? When I look
at that title, I can only think of the Pantera
song Cemetery Gates.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Is that like a cover or like related?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
To it.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I don't believe at all. So this is what I
think of whenever I see that song title. Not the same,
not at all from the Cowboys from Hell album, speaking
of Ellens between America and but like the bands from
where Dominique is from. Oh yeah, yeah, well they're actually
(35:02):
from Dallas, Tank but from a yes, Austin.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
That's why. More like, yeah, Texan girl, that's why I
relate to. As soon as you said Cowboys from Hell,
was that? Is that what it is? I'm like, yeah,
I get that, I understand.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yes, that makes all sense.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Oh yeah, okay, I'm not from Dallas.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Okay, big difference anyhow, So Cemetery Gates is your favorite one.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
It's I think there's a delight that both rhythmically, like,
it's fun playing guitar. I love the sort of it's
it's so like cartoon against so it's upbeat that cartoonishly sad,
a dreaded sunny day. So let's go where we're happy,
and I'll meet you at the cemetery. Kids like just
hanging out in the cemetery. So I'll meet you at
(35:50):
the cemetery gates. Cute, so so on your side and like, yeah,
just being like cartoonish the aera light for no reason.
There's like fun bits where like quotes like a poem
and like, uh and you I was twice in salitation
to the door and claim these words are your own.
(36:11):
But I'm well and I know some dizzy hare eight
four Like that's like.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
You just reeled that off without looking at the lyrics.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Ah sad, but like yeah, like little bits like that,
like so play like that, such playful creative pros just
sewn in like a fun pop song where if you
look at other songs from the time, they're just not
having this much fun with language or being this like
wofly soteric and like that's not no one would tell
you to put that in the song and make that hit.
(36:41):
Like that's that's the opposite of what if you pass
this to a normal person, they'd like cross out like
big chunks. It's like make something that people understand and
they're like nah, like this is all me and like
being aggressively you is like a core of why some
of those songs really resonate. So yeah, that and Big
(37:01):
Mess Fights again, they're like really like fun like energetic ones.
But there was like and thever be goes that's obviously
like a Beautiful really gets the correct balance of like
model in mirth, musical expertise, and like prowess. It's like
musically a Beautiful has like strings on that and everything
like that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, this is probably the most iconic chorus on the record.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Let's hear a bit of it.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So so much about who the Smiths are as a band.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
To die by your side, Watt, So.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We're still talking about the ways to die.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
This is the one that really stood out to me
as like you're, like, you're talking a lot about dying.
It seems like you're more interested in dying than being
with me. Like why we gotta like you're like going
You're like, oh, we're having a nice time. Wouldn't it
be perfect if we just died right now?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yeah? I mean there's like a lot of like romantic
Japanese literature from like around the Maji era where couples
will like struggle to meet each other, connect and then
sort of stare each other in the eyes and then
kill themselves because like that that's the Apothias's perfect peak
of their love. Is that moment of realization and then
(38:24):
just ending it there is like romantic. There's a lot
of like love first side like poetry, and they'll write
to each other about how romantic it would be.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Well, I can't think of even one bit of English literature.
Oh yeah, a couple in love dies?
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, me, neither, nothing comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
No, I think West Side Story, I get it right,
we did it here in America, in New York.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
No, but if you die, then how can you do
capitalism and produce things?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Very honestly, very fair? This is a socialist art. But yeah,
like it just and the overblown ornateness of like the
fact that that is their most commercially successful song. It's
hilarious to it that, like people are like resonating with
the idea of being plowed into by a double decker
bus is like beautifully silly, and like there's also but
(39:16):
also there's lots of like really beautiful human moments in that,
like the in the dark and Underpass I thought I
got my chances come at last in a strange share
grip me and I just couldn't ask. I've had that
moment of like, oh my god, this is like cube
person like maybe maybe no, and then you just want
to be plowed by that and the like the emotional
double decker bus of it all really like hits you
(39:38):
in like a fun way, and then it has that
right balance of like it's not all like goofy. They
are like fun, like emotional, like semi sincere moments, but
they're also like tied in with this like overblown comedic
tone that really like resonated with like a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Let me ask you when you were in your schooling days,
did you ever have an assignment to and you were
so stressed out about it and you're having such a
hard time with it that you were like, if I die,
I won't have.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Oh my god, so much.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, all the time, all the time. That's why I
won't go back to school.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
No.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
I love yes, big book question.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I liked learning. But the part where they the part
where they like get mad at you if you didn't
do it, I hate that was stressful. No one relates.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
There is a bar.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
They're like.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
A lot of professors teachers really took it personally. If
you blew off the homework, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I mean I was always uh you know, a pleasure
to have in class, but didn't same, Yeah, I didn't
have didn't do the homework a lot, and so I
would get a lot of tension on me.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
For like, I would do the homework, but I wouldn't
study for the exam. I would get by on personality.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
See I was personality too.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Personality, but also I was the youngest ChIL child.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
In Yeah, personality is exactly.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I was not personality. I was just I'm going to
do the work. I was a nightmare to having. Classic
was always like, well, I don't think like well actually yeah,
just truly very much like, well, I think there's other.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Reasons in so you got sent to detention just because
they didn't want to talk to you anymore.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Wow, that's that's explaining a lot.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I do like as we're going through this album, all
of the references are bringing me back to being like
between sixteen and twenty two years old totally, and that's
why we love it.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
We love it.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Some girls are bigger than others. The the final track
on this album.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
One concern I have just discovered some girls are bigger
than that.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
What do you think this one is about?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
That's exactly why I left it here because I was
just like I was like.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
What, first of all, what what?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Who do you think you're talking to this sounds rude,
but also what what do you what?
Speaker 3 (42:10):
So like in the context of where he and his
band were largely read as being very gay, uh, and
like it's sort of almost like an elaborate drag.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Drag act because they weren't wearing makeup and teasing their
hair up and wearing like spandex. They had to be gay,
so like eighties you had to be.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
So it's read from the context like if it were
like a straightforw like what man's got big tillies, then
it's like, yeah, that's gross. But when from the lens
of at the time of like someone like going, wow,
I just found out, like some girls are bigger than others?
Can you believe this? And it's more a seen as
like a commentary on the dumb fixation with things of
(42:51):
that nature. There's a fun live extended version of this
where he has an additional verse where he talks about
do you know about page three in the UK?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Great, that's so called like page six?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
What's page six?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's like the gas of Calen and nothing close.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
To it In the newspapers that were available to buy
in stores when I was a child, you could just
walk into any news stagents and buy it for like
twenty pence, a newspaper like the Sun on the mirror,
and then on page three there would be a topless
woman just there and it'll be like, what is happening?
Speaker 1 (43:28):
What has happened to this country?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
No, they like got finally got rid of them about
ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Now I know what his issues are, but like there
was this whole thing.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
That people were just upset, and because it's such a
repressed country, they're like, oh and everyone, oh my goodness.
And then he like mentions like I like open the
patreeon there. It was like, Wow, this this news is
to me, and it's like more in the sense of
like grow up, while he like fixated on this rather
than a thing I am fixated on, so like reading
it from the tone of like a queer voice rather
(43:58):
than like just I think he's like slightly helpful like context.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
I actually did. I actually did get this one. The
way he said it is it comes through like that's
not how anyone would actually talk about a woman or
anything like that. I was like, Uh, That's the funny
part is that he's still like saying it a bunch
of times every time he says it. He's the hateration
(44:27):
comes through more and more. They're like, yeah, yeah, I'm great,
I'm the smart guy, and you guys, you're just simple guys.
I actually like a woman with flat chest or I
don't see I don't see her. I don't see that.
Actually I see her mind only.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I mean for me, I don't see her at all
because I'm not interested in right. So the some of
the references in there, like the antis Cleopatra is like
from carry On movies, which were like these baldy British comedies,
Like he's like referencing a lot of like classic British
like circumstances where they would sort of fixate on a
(45:04):
lot of comedy. Was like Rubbolt like sort of ribbeled
and risk this right, But yeah, it's very is the
dumbest song. I also think it's very silly contextually to
have like this beautiful there is a light that never
goes out like Halff emotional song, and then to close
out your album with like this overly long tivlly song
(45:26):
that doesn't like have a lot of like clever things.
He just like repeat it over and over again. I
remember like listening out and going what is going on here?
When I first heard that, and then as it kept going.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I was like, wow, this is very silly, extremely silly.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Yeah, it's like a dumb way to end, like a
very dumb strange into the album silly band. But maybe.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, we we made it through. I was doing some
small research, nothing compared to what you've provided, which is
it'syclopedic now it almost of the Smiths and I is.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It Smith's the cultural context and political context in which
they existed. Yeah, oh yeah, like just.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Just to speak in the political context, the eighties in
Britain was miserable, Like it was like under Thatcher. She
was the Tories like ruled the land. They like hated
like everyone in the North, so everyone that everyone just.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Was miserable, extra miserable, more than the normal amount.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Of whatever you think of as British mus Viscibalism was
like sunshine and rainbows compared to like how like gritty
and grim. Everything was so like to have like this
playful or they lyricism come from like a place like Manchester,
sort of being artistic and with being like whimsical. As
a former protest also was like a fun. Part of
(46:51):
why I enjoyed like this music. I grew up My
father was on the dolls in a single part of family.
Like we didn't have like any access to like the
fancy things in life. But like language is free, education
is free, books are free, and like you can like
build this wonderful while you can like decorate, like my
my apartment is threadbare, but I can use words like
(47:12):
a threadbare, Like you know, you can't take that away
from me.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Let's take one final break and then we'll let Dominique
finish her thought.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Sorry, we're back once again with at first Listen Andrew
Dominique and I am sham still shan. Yeah, your your
(47:43):
commentary was is great. I okay. I read that the
smiths that he was inspired by Patti Smith, and I
inferred that it was the name of the band was
inspired by her.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
H A little bit Like the name of the band
is also like a joke in that like it's just
like for like the UK least, it's like the most
anonymous name you could like give a band.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I think it dovetails with the working class circumstances from
which they were coming.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
That's what I was thinking.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's just kind of a we're a very normal group
of four boys.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, the Smith's element that we were just like we're
an at We're the same as we're anyone. We're like
and we're nondescript, like we're not We're I get it.
It's kind of like like calling yourself John Doe almost.
It's like that sort of like.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, like it's that that level of like bland, Hey,
we're just like a nothing, regular band. And then to
be so on like on poetic and like silly and
like musically over the place.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
That's cool. I guess I was. I was, like I
was intrigued by my theory.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
It's fun to think of Morrissey in the New York
funk scene just sort of miss like wandering his way around.
I think he would not fit in there, not thinking
it's his jack if he did have made a career
on that. I guess, yeah, are you what is your
miserable music?
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Well?
Speaker 1 (49:17):
What is my miserable music? This is a great question.
I mean I was growing up listening to Avri Levine,
My Chemical Romance, Fallout Boy Blank on two. I also, Yeah,
so they definitely it's very clear to see like the
(49:37):
influences here on those bands, you know, Yeah, Nirvana.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
And what You're like, Hey, this always makes me smile.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Weird al yank, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Pretty crazy and that way. The funny thing is I
feel like those same bands. Actually it's like I that's
like why I choose them. That's I would listen to
them when I'm being sad because it's also so silly
and dumb to be so sad about like what exactly,
and then I always like it ends up cheering me up.
(50:10):
I feel the real true answer of like what puts
a smile on my face When I'm like I'm not
gonna make it, I just go straight to the Disney
Greatest Hits, And there's a song in every movie where
they're like we're gonna do it and it's gonna be okay,
and those songs are fire.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Yeah no, And I think that's I can see that,
that feels, that feels entirely your whole face up, like yeah,
we're gonna do it, the same way my face up
like a bus is gonna crash. Like it's it's really
cool that we both get that same energy from like
completely different sources. Like I never feel sad than when
(50:51):
I'm like in the middle of a musical and everyone's like, yeah,
let's go and on my good lord. But then everyone's
like bloody.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I'm like, yeah, that reminds me of I. Through doing
this show I have I've run into these artists where
I'm like, I don't like this and I don't know
how to explain why. And I think I've figured out.
We did a Chapel Roone episode recently and I was
(51:19):
saying that I really liked the recorded version of that
particular song, but I saw it for the first time
performed on SNL, and I didn't like it so much.
And I think my issue is things that are influenced
by musical theater. I don't like it. I think it
is a very stupid art form. Wow, stupid but amazing
(51:42):
and requires a tremendous amount of talent and skill. But yeah,
I think that's my problem essentially.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Wow, there's a bunch of theater kids at the dulc
stji ready, So.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
I know they're knocking down the door and they are very.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Sad, and we can we can actually see the Zigfeld
Theater throughout the window.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
I mean, I'm as an imp person, I'm just around
and sketch person around theater kids constantly and they are tiring. Yeah, no,
little bit, a little bit, but also very talented, very
lovely comedy.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
We love you, No, I also relate. I think that's
actually what kept me away from the stage for many years,
was just like being annoyed by them warming up in
like public settings and things like that. But I have
to say, you know, I'm from a family of singers
and we were we like every tape we had back
in the day was like like video we had was
(52:37):
always it was musicals, and it was Disney movies, which
are also musicals. And I think that like people would
ask me when I would be at parties, I would
be singing Hercules and I would say, this song is
great at my house, you have to listen to this.
They'd be like, are you a theater kid? And I'm
like no, And I find that very insulting actually, But
now I think I was meant to be one.
Speaker 4 (52:59):
Of a lot.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Well, you went to parties when you're younger, Yeah, that
is fascinating stuff.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Tell you all about that, you reveal, Yeah, crazy, I'll
tell you all about that next time. This was our
first listen to tell us about yours. Find us at
first Listen podcast and find shem and I on the
stage and screen at Upright Citizens Brigade Theater on what
(53:30):
day is it?
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Hell yeah, that's sort of information I should know.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
My phone is over there April twenty six, the last
Saturday of the month, at eight thirty.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Oh yeah, we do. I used to be black. That's
how I sat.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
I call it U see black, But you can call
it whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
It's a fun or black. I'm black. By the way,
I don't know. It's a shocking late in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Review, this podcast was directed by a night schell lam.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
What this whole time? But yeah, we do like a
very fun rorietory show. We have like lots of like
stand up and character performers and sketch comedians Justin Katchens
who may have heard talking about lou Pa Fiasco uh
as the host, as as as we have like really
fun cool guests people from SNL and HBO and you
(54:23):
know TV starg Stars of Stage and Scream. Uh yeah,
it's very cool. We have white Snaka is going to
be a special guest as well.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
As one of my favorite improvisers on the show. I
just saw the poster the other day. No wow, sorry, no,
Carl tart Oh yeah, I was. I almost said a
few weeks ago, like hey, you should see you should
try and get him on the show. I think he
worked at UCB in l A.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, he's a yeah, it's so funny. I was like
famous now because I remember it's just like coming up
and we'd like done shows him with like the Magnet,
like hung Out in LA and so yeah cool, and
I was like, oh my god, Carl, and it's like yeah, Carl,
he like his team is just in New York. Yesterday
they did the Big Team. They did the show fun Time.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, he's he's hilarious, as are many of the other
performers on the show.
Speaker 3 (55:15):
Let's see if we can keep up comedically.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
So and also, the show last month sold out, so
if people do want to go, they should buy their
tickets in advance.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah, you better get those asap because the show's coming
up around the corner.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
That's April twenty sixth. We're sure about that.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
I am sure about it.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
Yeah. You can catch me around town just like doing
stuff and I always all I do is post about
it on my Instagram. What's what I'm at my show
called life. No, I do not know about the TV
show or anything about Clare Danes. It was just the
fun tie.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
All right, let's get out of here.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Thanks for listening, Thanks for listen.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
We'll be back next week with the new episode out five.
You always the Ghost of Morse.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
He's here a black Buster No.
Welcome to at first listen to the music podcast for
people who don't always get the hype want to.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Andrew, I'm Dominique, and our guest today is Shem
Pennant from UCB. Hello, bringing the energy.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah, it's going to be like this for like an hour.
Well done.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shem is caffeinated, I can confirm.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
In every sense of the one.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So I'm very excited about today's episode because for his episode,
Shem chose the Smiths the Queen is Dead album. And
I meant to prove this to you, Dominique, but when
we started the podcast, I made a Google Drive Excel
sheet whatever their version of Excel is called. I forget
(01:02):
the British version of the Google version of it, and
one of the first artists I put on that list
was the Smiths. I find the Smiths to be so interesting.
I would say that I like them. I don't take
them particularly seriously as I think the og Smiths fans do.
(01:28):
I've met Johnny Marr through this job. Wonderful guy. Could
not be nicer. I've never met Morrissey, but well I've
heard things.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
The opposite description, right, mostly is a problem for Smith's fans.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, a problematic figure for sure. So sham, let's just
start by, why don't you tell us why you chose
the Smiths here? Uh well, basically I listened to you
were not prepared for that question.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I this is still an act. I'm always ready. I came.
I listened to a lot of like weird stupd soteric
music or like old like nineties jungle, or like weird
like angry noise, and like that is fun and very
much a part of my identity, but also not like
handy to like to like like, I see you don't
(02:21):
really has like lyrics up on the page, and you
would just have like screams incomprehensively. And I'll bring something
that people might have heard of I have some connection to.
And I remember I was in as is the right
of passage from most Smith's fans. I was just a
sad child in high school. Someone handed me a casette
(02:43):
with like a bunch of Smith's songs on it, and
I was like, Okay, this is my personality. Now, this
is great, Like someone gets it and it's just been
with me ever since, and like it's really been wild
to like watch their journey through the public consciousness, but
very much like a connection like hitting it at the
exact white age when if you are a sad fourteen
(03:04):
year old, this this is the perfect music that sort
of can stay with you to when you are like
sad in your twenties, thirties and forties, if you like
coming at as an adult. I fully understand nonsense, but
it's very much like embedded into like encapsulating a lot
of the feelings and frustrations of youth with a lot
(03:25):
of like cultural context. All whine on the bat length later.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So you're also from England? Are you from Manchester as well?
Not the slightest I'm very much from like South London, but.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Like it's like it's very it's weirdly very it's like
very like working class music, but in not in the
way of like, oh, grizzling, we're from the streets or whatever,
but more and it's the products of like the eighties
where it was where it's from was they would have
there's a dolt what you could be unemployed or like
(04:01):
working class but still have access to like a lot
of literature and education libraries with THEE museums are free.
It was like fine to be wellware and sort of literate.
So there's a whole like traditional sort of anti authoritarians
and well educated but like still like very like entrenched
working class commentary and art that's like not just talking
(04:22):
about struggle, but there can be like whimsical that can
be creative, and I can comment on things in like
really fun expressive ways, and it also comes out like
the folk music tradition, which is like big in the UK. Obviously.
The best example of that I can always point to
is a band called Half Man Half Biscuits, who are
like northern aggressively working class but like really smart, really
(04:44):
focused and about bringing like joy to mondanity and struggle.
As a like working class kid from South London, I
just related a lot to that context.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Wow, that's a really good answer.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And indeed the Smiths are a well read group, but
perhaps to well read.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Well depends what they're reading. I yeah, I definitely.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I you were not enthused about them.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
No, this was my least favorite choice. But you know
what someone said about doing the thing that scares you.
I think Batman said that.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yes, Sir Batman is a very loved motivational speaker. One
of the things I will say is that bands like
this have just very annoying fans who just ruin the
music for almost everybody like the smith Like I grew
up loving like it, I go loving like Red in
your Head, annoying fans Aphex Twin, the worst fans like
(05:41):
almost anything where you can go. I'm actually quite smart
because I get it. And this is like the peak
of that kind of music. If you have to interact
with anybody who like loves the Smiths, I can understand
like immediately wanting to hate them. I hate Smith's fans,
and I have been one for like half my life.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well, emo teenage boys are often not the most fun people.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
The greatest cultural ambassy.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and I think that, Yeah, there there was always
like I was the emo teenage girl when the boys
were listening to this. I just I literally just like
never engaged with it. And I feel I engaged with
other tangential type of sounding things. But this, this Holden
(06:30):
Callfield kind of vibe. That's what I get from this
of just like nobody understands. I just I'm just seeing
things you don't see, and you guys are mean.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, And I think that's definitely what a lot of
fans take away, which is like a shame because it was.
It's it's less the fans definitely give off the energy,
but I think intrinsic to their music is such a
sense of humor and like playfulness. It's like, oh, I'm
miserable and life terrible. They're smiling and they're be like
playful and silly. When you like see visually who they
(07:03):
are and like how they present themselves. It's so ridiculous
that they would even the audacity of like a bunch
of like miserable dandies from like a hard working class
town saying we're pop stars and is just so anti
everything that's going on at the time, and very much
a reaction to a lot of the big, like glossy
eighties production that was happening. That they were really cool,
(07:25):
and then their fans are all like, I'm just gonna
double down on the miserableness of it all. As a comedian, like,
I love how funny and playful and creative a lot
of their tracks are, and like I use that in
like comedy rather than my miserable talking to girls at.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Okay, that's a that's inspiring. I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I do appreciate the context though, like the Smiths are
a band from the eighties, and when when you think
of like eighties music, you think of like the big
colorful pop stars, the big hero and the neon everything,
whereas the Smiths like black and white, long song titles,
poetry quote unquote poetry. It was very counterculture in that
(08:12):
respect at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Even like the most problem his whole thing is like
he cannot sick and he doesn't even try to, and
that's very funny to like even like and even he's
trying to, like do like a normal song, he will
just sort of howl in Yeppie's way, and like that
visitationally takes a lot of the seriousness out of what
he's saying a lot of times, or like puts it
in like a fun context when like they will then
(08:36):
be sandwiched between like big like see like serious acts.
It was like a very fun thing for me.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
And the music is all very jaunty and very positive sounding.
A lot of major keys and big pretty chords and
Johnny Marr, who I mentioned earlier, that's the guitar player
for anybody you know, with a lot of it is
his arranging and his probably roots in like the and
loving the Beatles, and then the you know British like
(09:06):
folk music tradition that she referred to earlier.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, he's like really into Bert Yans and pentangle, and
then he has a lot of like folk like fingerpicking
like techniques and styles. He's a really incredible guitar that
I hate people sound so dumb talking about music, which
is a whole premise of but like he's such a creative,
(09:29):
wonderfully like diverse like guitar player. And he'll like have
like some like sort of very like standard like sounds.
Sometimes he'll like do something that feels like really like
creative and like sunk. The texture sometimes will be like
funky or like weird, like he and he just always
folds it into sounds. So he has this really creative
approach to guitar playing that was like really picked up
(09:50):
by people like grah and Cotton from Blur had that
like same approach of like gonna take the sounds and
like recreate them in my own image. My favorite example
of that is this Charming Man, which is like very
much influenced by Ghana and high life. They say that,
people go, oh, yeah, I see that, but it's normally
it's just like a weird sounding way of making the
Western pop song versus Vampire Weekend where they're like, oh,
(10:11):
we're just ripping off this sound, like putting like some
music over it, and he's more, I'm hearing this thing
and than I'm like overlaying it and creating a fun
take on it. Or also how seen it's now come
from like a rockabilly like like that rockabilly rhythm and
then drenched in like slapback, echo and reburb and all
these weird sounds, so it sounds like it's taken from
a thing that sounds so completely different in a really cool, crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The thing that I enjoy about listening to this band
is because, like I think I was at least thirty,
maybe in my late twenties before I ever actively tried
to listen to The Smiths. I'm sure i'd heard some
of their stuff before, but the thing I got out
of it was like, Oh, this is where all this
is like the favorite band of a lot of bands
(10:55):
that I grew up hearing. And that's one of the
things that you're if anyone out there hasn't listened to
The Smiths before, one of the things you'll get out
of one of their albums is where a lot of
new wave came from, where a lot of post punk
and emo later on came from was and goth stuff
(11:15):
was from the Smiths, and probably from this album specifically.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah, so I'm fascinated as like an adult with limited
tolerance for whiny sad boys. How hard were you rolling
your eyes?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I'm just locked in on anything you're saying.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But when you were like listening to this album where
you're like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Honestly, no, that's the thing, Like it's nice.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It's much more tolerable than you might think it is.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Exactly, Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
It does sound so nice.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It sounds nice, and like I do I relate in
whatever type of like you know, human way. I think
it's like the mundane type of things he talks about
and combines it with his deep feelings like those are
those are real things. I think that's why I was like,
I was interested because it definitely is just like a
(12:14):
prejudice against Morrissey that's come from like people being like
he's an asshole.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And let's get into more of that after the break
and then we'll roll that into the track list on
this album.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
On at first listening, and we're back with a first, listen, I'm.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Andrew, I'm Dominie, I'm still sham.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I've got back peptop. Now this is very excited pap.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Oh yeah, I'm talking about gets Stoke.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, well he's a thing. He's as quotes read interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
What's your favorite quote? Wait? What's your least favorite?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Is it that immigrants are destroying?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
That's what I have.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I don't think that.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I mean it was implied definitely those poor BMP folks.
I mean, I mean, honestly, the way the world is now,
he's uh, he's probably going to have a researchence.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
But.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Like he had loads of little like Chris Gethard has
like the Mossey both the Morrissey signature and then it
takes strength to be gentle and kind as a tattoo
and like stuff like that. It was like, that's a
I think that's a cool thing for like a post
punk sort of new wave band who are like trying
to be pop stars, like saying it's not it's not
like be disaffected and be too cool to care. It
(13:38):
is like, you know, like it's okay to have feelings.
You can be sad, you can be fun, you can
have a spectrum of human emotions, You can be ambiguously sexual,
you can like do a lot of stuff that wasn't
like okay in the mainstream in the eighties, and that
was like I guess, pushing the message of like, hey,
if you're weird, it's all right. Nothing he said post
(13:59):
nineteen nine, I would like really back to your But
also I think if you are like a weird person
trying to be successful, you will struggle so much that
life will just make you a weird, gnulled human being.
So I have some forgiveness for people who I loved,
who like started in their like twenties, who have just
(14:20):
tried to survive in the business and have gone to
Lulu because it's like, yeah, like it will make you nuts.
I'm not successful and I'm going so like, I fully
understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
No, I definitely was feeling the Kanye vibes. You know,
don't say his name three times, but I know I
can't contextualize these lyrics with the guy who exists now,
Like there's really no reason, yeah to try to be
like okay, but why do you say that? Then you
(14:52):
said this gentle kind what happened to that guy? Because
like it's just a different guy and it's a different moment,
and he I assume he thinks he's kind. I think
most people see themselves as good. That's not to get
too big with the contents too early, But I was
able to connect with it in a way where I
(15:14):
was more it was it's sad that it's sad that
what did you call it? Becoming gnarled? It's sad that
people do that.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, But like I try to use that as like
an internal compass of like every time I feel myself
going girl the youth or whatever like about a thing,
I'm like, I try to be like, oh, don't turn
into like one of those like angry people ranting on
the internet. Like try to like have empathy or like
open your heart to why people are acting in the way.
My favorite actual Morrissey song lyric like locked me in
(15:44):
commediically to his tone. But I it's the corniest answer,
but I have to be honest and say that. When
I was fourteen and I heard the bridge from how
Soon Is Now, there's a club if you'd like to go,
and you might find someone who really loves you. So
you go and you stand in your and you leave
on your own and you go home and you cry
and you want to die. Like that to me was like, yeah,
(16:05):
this guy kids like because it's so over the top
and city and dramatic that I've both had those feelings,
but like explaining how those feelings feel so overblown that
like City was like, Oh, it just sort of punctures
a lot of the tension in the air, like oh
my god, no one loves me, blah blah blah. And
when he said I never had no where ever, it's like, oh, yeah,
I guess I do sound like a whiny baby, and
so like I do have my feelings, but like it's
(16:26):
someone who's like playfully acknowledging my feelings but smiling at
me and like saying it's what I don't worry about.
It was the message I took away from all that.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I'm totally picturing like that guy, some version of you
wherever in between you and Morrissey Stan is having that
experience at the club and there's like me trying to
flirt with you and you just like don't notice because
you're just like too busy being sad. You're like, yeah,
she was probably just she's she's just like not even
(16:55):
trying it. It's something else. She doesn't like me.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Actually, I mean I wish that were the case. I
done extensive research. I've asked everyone back in the day
and was interesting, i'ming back to check.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, that's that's good to know. No, but I mean
not to bring race into it, but like there is
there is like this element that he no like being
this whiny white boy who is like ultimately very conventionally
like attractive and like acceptable in the world, and that
(17:28):
like many disaffected youth who feel this like isolation and
it is different than being you know, black in a
predominantly white environment and like not getting flirted with by
the by the cuties.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Hey, I know about being black in the white environment
and not cuties come see at UCB. But uh to
that point, he was was also like uh, Irish and
like queer in like Manchester, and like that is like
it's not the same, but like it is like and vegan. Yes,
(18:04):
So like there were like slightly other identities that like
at the top again in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Were like people like, oh my god, wait, so he's
Irish because this is I'm like, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
English blood, Irish Irish blood, English heart or something like that,
like he has a song about it, like he has
like iris.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Where the trouble started for him is kind of around
the first Fu solo.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
The troubles famously with the Irish.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Yes, but yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
That actually makes a lot of sense to me, Like
I feel like I understand Irish culture better than English culture.
And it's now knowing that I'm seeing that.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Have you seen the commitments? No, it's like you don't
have to. It's it's just a movie about like a
band in like Ireland. But in one part famously to me,
at least that he goes the blacks were like the Irish.
The blacks that he went the Irish were like the
black people of Europe. And as a black person in Europe,
I was like, and I didn't think he says black.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
People yeah yeah, wild no, yeah, but I was.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Like, like the way, but there's an other ness. Irish
identity in the UK is like so racist that they
like don't like other white people, Like they have aggressive
prejudice against people with ginger hair, like it's a it's
a it's a great place to grow up, but like
there was enough of another in your Scottish or well
hell yeah, which are all functioning the same, the literal
(19:34):
same fucking island.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They already they feel I know, hey, I tell my
Irish people out there, I know there is this like
this feeling of being very very othered. I feel like that.
It's like the cultural context of being other like in
their own land has been around for a long time
and so it's very entrenched in there in the culture
(19:58):
of Irish people.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
It's also interesting because like a lot of this stuff,
for like you can be like sad, like a lot
of sad boy content has now become like in cel Father,
which then makes it like harder to enjoy it. But
at the time we weren't doing that as much as
we were like just moping a little bit and like
drawing like sad things on like a textbook and biro.
(20:19):
It was less like aggressively that we didn't have the
internet to hate the women on, so like it felt
more contained in a way.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So Sham had no preferences as far as the track listening.
As I was scrubbing some of these songs, he would
pick up the lyric wherever in the song I started in.
So the first one Dominique singled out was frankly mister Shankily,
the second track from The Queen's Dead. It plays my way.
(20:54):
Shocking number of songs from this album begin with the
title lyric I disagree, Sham with your statement earlier that
Morrissey can't sing.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Because I disagree.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I think he has a beautiful voice, and I think
the thing that makes him so unique. And I don't
know when he started singing how that happened, but it
sounds to me like as a teenager he began singing
in a band and he referred back to his technique
(21:27):
from like choir as the only way he knew how
to perform the action of singing, and he just rolled
with it because nobody complained that much.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Now the I feel like the choir boy too pop
punk whatever. Like the Venn diagram is a circle, there's
a lot like speaking of you know, emo music continuing
through the ages. It's there's like that's one of the
funny things about it to me is they're like, God,
(22:02):
I'm just so different and sad, but then they're like
totally choir boys, and I can just see them where
they're like well out all.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But that's where I would, I think, draw the line
between emo and whatever. The Smiths is because the emo
kids listen to the Smiths and we're like, that is
exactly how I feel, yes, and I find no humor
in it, and that's how I will now create a
music career where the Morrissey's lyrics are clearly humorous and
(22:32):
meant to be satirical.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, the Franklin mister Shankly has like the great opening
line of Frankly Shankly, this position I feeled it pays
my way, but it corrodes my soul, which is like
such a overblown way of talking about a very real
like I hate working and it's great and like his
most one of his most famous though, it was I
quote to people all the time, it's from heaven. Those
are miserable now, whereas I was looking for a job
(22:56):
and then they found the job and heaven, those are
miserable now. And that is so like aggressively true to
this day, like that they really like resonate, but also
there's like a there's like a smile to them. It's
like what you're gonna do, which is like very Northern
British and sensibilities.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I want to try to find the very last lyric
of Frankly mister shankly, so bear.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
With us, for I realize you blood such bloody awful poetry.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I don't mean to be so.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Still, I must speak frankly. I'll give us money.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So good? What what made you choose that? To play that?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And I don't know? It routinely cracks me up this
listening to this band, which is why I maybe like it,
not not totally. I don't think I like it the
way I'm supposed to like it is. I guess myken
what is my can inflicted with it?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I think they would say, there's no way you're supposed
to like they They're very much like nonconformist in that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
So the next the extract dom make single that was
never had no one ever.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Before, play the Okay I just love like uh. The
opening title, the Queen is Dead, celebration of the monarch
being dead hugely a controversial thing. Like the title of
the album is like a massive like poke in the eye,
Sure was played a lot when she actually did die
very recently, like it still like remains in the public consciousness,
(24:47):
and it's like very like aggressively political, but like humorous
and like like is a nonsense like sent into Americans,
you're like, oh yeah, sure, sure, but like that was
like a real.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Like oh my god, that thank you for pointing that out,
because yes too Americans, that means literally nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
We do not care.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, we're like which queen did.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
But like to say, like I met in England, that's
a big difference.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I think it's like joking about killing the president, which
is a crime, so something I'm not doing.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
In like nineteen seventy seven, the sexpessials that God said
the queen they like it was like a huge affront
like decency and people were like scandalized by this was
the Smith had another song called Maggie on the Guillotine
about Margaret Thatcher being executed on the guillotine, again like
very like for its time, like a very like in
your face like punk statement, but in this like also playful, silly,
(25:38):
really orchestrated way, so it's very cool. And then to
track number three, I know it's over. It's like very
like modeling and like depressing and like like sort of
emo like mother, I can feel the soil falling over
my head, et cetera, but also has like great lines
like I feel so very funny, why You're on your
own tonight. I like, that's like such a like great
(25:59):
like thing that I think about with both a smile
and a smile on my face and the tear in
my eye every time I'm like feeling like abandoned or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Oh, we could talk about that song. I know it's over.
I was because I was thinking of that one, that
line that you said, I thought that. I also thought
that was really funny. And do you want to say
more about what he's like? What do you think he's
saying there?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
I don't. I have never once thought about what a
smooth song is like each I just let I mostly
listen to the things for music with lyrics, but like
every time a lyric jumps out, it strikes me just
like a fun interesting idea or like and the whole
track he's talking about like dying and like being buried
and like and like saying to his mother like his
life sob which is like very dramatic and sad, but
(26:49):
it is it just has all these like funny, like
whimsical like beats within that, which I think is like
such a cool thing.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Let me play a second. That's we're talking about it,
so right, So the song starts and he's already in
his grave, feeling the dirt being piled on top of him.
So it's like, how how easy is it to imagine
(27:16):
a teenager slamming their door and playing this song no,
And I.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Think that's that's one of the things that did make
me roll my eyes. And I do think there is
an amount of like American positivity culture that makes this
like rub me the wrong way, because I'm like, why
we gotta do that? Though, why we gotta be in
the grave. We're like right now, we're chilling.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
But then literally track three but like the but that's
so funny to like have like your track three being
like I'm mom, I'm Dell'm dead. I mean the grave
sol is pulling over me. And then he says, as
I climb into my empty bed, oh well enough said
I like that kind of that, like it's it's always
like a traumatic and then the puncturing of that like
emotion with like frivolity or like some witticism, and that's
(28:05):
what keeps. If it was all just like straight face sad,
I would have no attach to it. I have this
hard time in America because I am functionally British, so
I will like mumble and grow in a lot. If
you ask me, how am I doing, like my stand
up like that like that, and I'm fine. That means yeah, right,
everything's like okay. If you ask me show, I was like, oh,
that's awful. I'll just tell you the things that went wrong.
(28:27):
It's just my it's my love. Like like it's very
hard meeting such fun like upbeat positive people like yeah,
let's call, let's call. So yeah, it's it's it's you.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I am interested in this thing, like there's no pressure.
British people have no pressure for to be happy. Like
that's like here, It's like Americans were like, Live Left Love. Yeah,
you gotta at least try to be happy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
In the constitution it is.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think we the people Live Left Love.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
It's fun because Dominique and I host the comedy show
together and then she'll be like, yeah, let's go, let's welcome,
and then we look back to recordings like her and
Justin's like Mike's like spiking in the red It's like
mine's not.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
On yeah, and I do so. I like I think
that for that reason, I am I'm almost like the
soil falling over my head. Not only is it like
so sad and like it's not even sad, it's like
past sad. It's like nothing, which we're dead and I'm not.
(29:33):
It's so passive like I'm not die dead, I didn't die.
The soil is just falling on me and I'm just
here like.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'm so disaffected.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yes, I'll just all yeah, just bury me alive.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
And I think that that level of like almost theatricality
to how it's not just like I'm not sad, I'm invincible.
I'm fullorn, Like there's a bombas to the language that
like takes it out of like othing fus. Yeah, I
don't know. I can't remember the band, but there's a
punk band that's a car Went's not on the Monday morning.
(30:07):
Everything sucks today, Like it's just like very straightforward and
this is is is so like broken. It's like miss
missery that has like a joy to it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So do you want to talk about never had no
one ever? I think as intriguing and creative as Morrissey's
lyrics are, we should also think about when we listen
to the Smiths, where he sings and why, because where
he sings is pretty much fucking everywhere, Like no wonder
(30:43):
this band broke up because he kind of writes like
he doesn't realize that you don't need to sing or
have a lyric for every single moment on the red
Like how can you be in a band with this
guy for nine years and not be at some point
like hut the fuck up?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
It was less less time than that, even the short
space of time.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
The.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Prolific band for such a short period of.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Time, And that's not this is my least favorite track
on the album, but it is just there is a
minute of him just wailing yeah, and like it's like
almost like a very like long winded like joke of
like I like walked to the earth and they had
no one ever, no one ever loved me or touch me.
(31:31):
Cast your eyes away, about your eyes for my my
fassage show.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I hate to intrude, but I'm alone, just so you know,
like I'm alone, but not to bother you, but I'm
lonely and sad.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I mean, but that's that's the tone of it, Like
it's not serious.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, my best friend, the three other people in my
band all despise me.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Is that what it is? I'm like that I think
that's no. I mean I'm thinking about I'm thinking about
British humor, especially like I grew up watching like British
comedies from like the nineties and stuff, and this like
this as a joke is not something that I relate
to that much, but like I'm like, haha, that's so funny.
(32:16):
Are you good? Like I see it? I see it now?
What if I read it through that lens? But automatically
I think I I was just like what what?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Who?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
What?
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Who?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Who? Did you not?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Why did you not have? Because I'm googling, I'm like,
is how is his relationships?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
And you're like zero results found.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Well, it seems like he had good relationships with his
mom and with other people, and he in that day I.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Kept up he had like very famously ambiguous, would never
talk about it, and there was always like weird questions
of anti sexuality, which he like never addressed, like even
to this day, he like kind of like keeps everything
very quiet, which is like fun. And then also contextually
the joke to me of like that being like a
pop song that you expect people to like enjoy, like
(33:06):
just like putting out like with a straight faces, like
a supposedly commercial act. I'm just a sad, lonely boy
that eOne loves is like fun and world to me.
On an unrelated note, I am so stressed about how
low the battering or a laptop is.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh you let me worry about my battery.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
All right, all right, that's as good a place as
any to get Dominique a power chord and we'll be
back over the break camera back and ambress.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Listen, I mean, Andrew, I'm Dominique.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
I think she was the.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
First guest to jump in on that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, this man knows what
he's doing.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, really making the whole operation seem professional. We appreciate that.
So the next one don't wanted to talk about was
there was a light that never goes out? Of course,
that's I think the quote unquote hit from this record.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
This may be like one of their top songs.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, that's why I picked it.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Do you have a favorite song on this album?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Show? I love them all, really fond of Cemmetry Gates.
That one really speaks to me.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Will Does this mean anything to you? When I look
at that title, I can only think of the Pantera
song Cemetery Gates.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Is that like a cover or like related?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
To it.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I don't believe at all. So this is what I
think of whenever I see that song title. Not the same,
not at all from the Cowboys from Hell album, speaking
of Ellens between America and but like the bands from
where Dominique is from. Oh yeah, yeah, well they're actually
(35:02):
from Dallas, Tank but from a yes, Austin.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
That's why. More like, yeah, Texan girl, that's why I
relate to. As soon as you said Cowboys from Hell,
was that? Is that what it is? I'm like, yeah,
I get that, I understand.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yes, that makes all sense.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Oh yeah, okay, I'm not from Dallas.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Okay, big difference anyhow, So Cemetery Gates is your favorite one.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
It's I think there's a delight that both rhythmically, like,
it's fun playing guitar. I love the sort of it's
it's so like cartoon against so it's upbeat that cartoonishly sad,
a dreaded sunny day. So let's go where we're happy,
and I'll meet you at the cemetery. Kids like just
hanging out in the cemetery. So I'll meet you at
(35:50):
the cemetery gates. Cute, so so on your side and like, yeah,
just being like cartoonish the aera light for no reason.
There's like fun bits where like quotes like a poem
and like, uh and you I was twice in salitation
to the door and claim these words are your own.
(36:11):
But I'm well and I know some dizzy hare eight
four Like that's like.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
You just reeled that off without looking at the lyrics.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Ah sad, but like yeah, like little bits like that,
like so play like that, such playful creative pros just
sewn in like a fun pop song where if you
look at other songs from the time, they're just not
having this much fun with language or being this like
wofly soteric and like that's not no one would tell
you to put that in the song and make that hit.
(36:41):
Like that's that's the opposite of what if you pass
this to a normal person, they'd like cross out like
big chunks. It's like make something that people understand and
they're like nah, like this is all me and like
being aggressively you is like a core of why some
of those songs really resonate. So yeah, that and Big
(37:01):
Mess Fights again, they're like really like fun like energetic ones.
But there was like and thever be goes that's obviously
like a Beautiful really gets the correct balance of like
model in mirth, musical expertise, and like prowess. It's like
musically a Beautiful has like strings on that and everything
like that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, this is probably the most iconic chorus on the record.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Let's hear a bit of it.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So so much about who the Smiths are as a band.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
To die by your side, Watt, So.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We're still talking about the ways to die.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
This is the one that really stood out to me
as like you're, like, you're talking a lot about dying.
It seems like you're more interested in dying than being
with me. Like why we gotta like you're like going
You're like, oh, we're having a nice time. Wouldn't it
be perfect if we just died right now?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yeah? I mean there's like a lot of like romantic
Japanese literature from like around the Maji era where couples
will like struggle to meet each other, connect and then
sort of stare each other in the eyes and then
kill themselves because like that that's the Apothias's perfect peak
of their love. Is that moment of realization and then
(38:24):
just ending it there is like romantic. There's a lot
of like love first side like poetry, and they'll write
to each other about how romantic it would be.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Well, I can't think of even one bit of English literature.
Oh yeah, a couple in love dies?
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, me, neither, nothing comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
No, I think West Side Story, I get it right,
we did it here in America, in New York.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
No, but if you die, then how can you do
capitalism and produce things?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Very honestly, very fair? This is a socialist art. But yeah,
like it just and the overblown ornateness of like the
fact that that is their most commercially successful song. It's
hilarious to it that, like people are like resonating with
the idea of being plowed into by a double decker
bus is like beautifully silly, and like there's also but
(39:16):
also there's lots of like really beautiful human moments in that,
like the in the dark and Underpass I thought I
got my chances come at last in a strange share
grip me and I just couldn't ask. I've had that
moment of like, oh my god, this is like cube
person like maybe maybe no, and then you just want
to be plowed by that and the like the emotional
double decker bus of it all really like hits you
(39:38):
in like a fun way, and then it has that
right balance of like it's not all like goofy. They
are like fun, like emotional, like semi sincere moments, but
they're also like tied in with this like overblown comedic
tone that really like resonated with like a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Let me ask you when you were in your schooling days,
did you ever have an assignment to and you were
so stressed out about it and you're having such a
hard time with it that you were like, if I die,
I won't have.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Oh my god, so much.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, all the time, all the time. That's why I
won't go back to school.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
No.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
I love yes, big book question.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I liked learning. But the part where they the part
where they like get mad at you if you didn't
do it, I hate that was stressful. No one relates.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
There is a bar.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
They're like.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
A lot of professors teachers really took it personally. If
you blew off the homework, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I mean I was always uh you know, a pleasure
to have in class, but didn't same, Yeah, I didn't
have didn't do the homework a lot, and so I
would get a lot of tension on me.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
For like, I would do the homework, but I wouldn't
study for the exam. I would get by on personality.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
See I was personality too.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Personality, but also I was the youngest ChIL child.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
In Yeah, personality is exactly.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I was not personality. I was just I'm going to
do the work. I was a nightmare to having. Classic
was always like, well, I don't think like well actually yeah,
just truly very much like, well, I think there's other.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Reasons in so you got sent to detention just because
they didn't want to talk to you anymore.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Wow, that's that's explaining a lot.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I do like as we're going through this album, all
of the references are bringing me back to being like
between sixteen and twenty two years old totally, and that's
why we love it.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
We love it.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Some girls are bigger than others. The the final track
on this album.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
One concern I have just discovered some girls are bigger
than that.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
What do you think this one is about?
Speaker 1 (41:52):
That's exactly why I left it here because I was
just like I was like.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
What, first of all, what what?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Who do you think you're talking to this sounds rude,
but also what what do you what?
Speaker 3 (42:10):
So like in the context of where he and his
band were largely read as being very gay, uh, and
like it's sort of almost like an elaborate drag.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Drag act because they weren't wearing makeup and teasing their
hair up and wearing like spandex. They had to be gay,
so like eighties you had to be.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
So it's read from the context like if it were
like a straightforw like what man's got big tillies, then
it's like, yeah, that's gross. But when from the lens
of at the time of like someone like going, wow,
I just found out, like some girls are bigger than others?
Can you believe this? And it's more a seen as
like a commentary on the dumb fixation with things of
(42:51):
that nature. There's a fun live extended version of this
where he has an additional verse where he talks about
do you know about page three in the UK?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Great, that's so called like page six?
Speaker 3 (43:06):
What's page six?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's like the gas of Calen and nothing close.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
To it In the newspapers that were available to buy
in stores when I was a child, you could just
walk into any news stagents and buy it for like
twenty pence, a newspaper like the Sun on the mirror,
and then on page three there would be a topless
woman just there and it'll be like, what is happening?
Speaker 1 (43:28):
What has happened to this country?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
No, they like got finally got rid of them about
ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Now I know what his issues are, but like there
was this whole thing.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
That people were just upset, and because it's such a
repressed country, they're like, oh and everyone, oh my goodness.
And then he like mentions like I like open the
patreeon there. It was like, Wow, this this news is
to me, and it's like more in the sense of
like grow up, while he like fixated on this rather
than a thing I am fixated on, so like reading
it from the tone of like a queer voice rather
(43:58):
than like just I think he's like slightly helpful like context.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
I actually did. I actually did get this one. The
way he said it is it comes through like that's
not how anyone would actually talk about a woman or
anything like that. I was like, Uh, That's the funny
part is that he's still like saying it a bunch
of times every time he says it. He's the hateration
(44:27):
comes through more and more. They're like, yeah, yeah, I'm great,
I'm the smart guy, and you guys, you're just simple guys.
I actually like a woman with flat chest or I
don't see I don't see her. I don't see that.
Actually I see her mind only.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I mean for me, I don't see her at all
because I'm not interested in right. So the some of
the references in there, like the antis Cleopatra is like
from carry On movies, which were like these baldy British comedies,
Like he's like referencing a lot of like classic British
like circumstances where they would sort of fixate on a
(45:04):
lot of comedy. Was like Rubbolt like sort of ribbeled
and risk this right, But yeah, it's very is the
dumbest song. I also think it's very silly contextually to
have like this beautiful there is a light that never
goes out like Halff emotional song, and then to close
out your album with like this overly long tivlly song
(45:26):
that doesn't like have a lot of like clever things.
He just like repeat it over and over again. I
remember like listening out and going what is going on here?
When I first heard that, and then as it kept going.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I was like, wow, this is very silly, extremely silly.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Yeah, it's like a dumb way to end, like a
very dumb strange into the album silly band. But maybe.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, we we made it through. I was doing some
small research, nothing compared to what you've provided, which is
it'syclopedic now it almost of the Smiths and I is.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It Smith's the cultural context and political context in which
they existed. Yeah, oh yeah, like just.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Just to speak in the political context, the eighties in
Britain was miserable, Like it was like under Thatcher. She
was the Tories like ruled the land. They like hated
like everyone in the North, so everyone that everyone just.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Was miserable, extra miserable, more than the normal amount.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Of whatever you think of as British mus Viscibalism was
like sunshine and rainbows compared to like how like gritty
and grim. Everything was so like to have like this
playful or they lyricism come from like a place like Manchester,
sort of being artistic and with being like whimsical. As
a former protest also was like a fun. Part of
(46:51):
why I enjoyed like this music. I grew up My
father was on the dolls in a single part of family.
Like we didn't have like any access to like the
fancy things in life. But like language is free, education
is free, books are free, and like you can like
build this wonderful while you can like decorate, like my
my apartment is threadbare, but I can use words like
(47:12):
a threadbare, Like you know, you can't take that away
from me.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Let's take one final break and then we'll let Dominique
finish her thought.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Sorry, we're back once again with at first Listen Andrew
Dominique and I am sham still shan. Yeah, your your
(47:43):
commentary was is great. I okay. I read that the
smiths that he was inspired by Patti Smith, and I
inferred that it was the name of the band was
inspired by her.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
H A little bit Like the name of the band
is also like a joke in that like it's just
like for like the UK least, it's like the most
anonymous name you could like give a band.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I think it dovetails with the working class circumstances from
which they were coming.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
That's what I was thinking.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's just kind of a we're a very normal group
of four boys.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, the Smith's element that we were just like we're
an at We're the same as we're anyone. We're like
and we're nondescript, like we're not We're I get it.
It's kind of like like calling yourself John Doe almost.
It's like that sort of like.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, like it's that that level of like bland, Hey,
we're just like a nothing, regular band. And then to
be so on like on poetic and like silly and
like musically over the place.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
That's cool. I guess I was. I was, like I
was intrigued by my theory.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
It's fun to think of Morrissey in the New York
funk scene just sort of miss like wandering his way around.
I think he would not fit in there, not thinking
it's his jack if he did have made a career
on that. I guess, yeah, are you what is your
miserable music?
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Well?
Speaker 1 (49:17):
What is my miserable music? This is a great question.
I mean I was growing up listening to Avri Levine,
My Chemical Romance, Fallout Boy Blank on two. I also, Yeah,
so they definitely it's very clear to see like the
(49:37):
influences here on those bands, you know, Yeah, Nirvana.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
And what You're like, Hey, this always makes me smile.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Weird al yank, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Pretty crazy and that way. The funny thing is I
feel like those same bands. Actually it's like I that's
like why I choose them. That's I would listen to
them when I'm being sad because it's also so silly
and dumb to be so sad about like what exactly,
and then I always like it ends up cheering me up.
(50:10):
I feel the real true answer of like what puts
a smile on my face When I'm like I'm not
gonna make it, I just go straight to the Disney
Greatest Hits, And there's a song in every movie where
they're like we're gonna do it and it's gonna be okay,
and those songs are fire.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Yeah no, And I think that's I can see that,
that feels, that feels entirely your whole face up, like yeah,
we're gonna do it, the same way my face up
like a bus is gonna crash. Like it's it's really
cool that we both get that same energy from like
completely different sources. Like I never feel sad than when
(50:51):
I'm like in the middle of a musical and everyone's like, yeah,
let's go and on my good lord. But then everyone's
like bloody.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I'm like, yeah, that reminds me of I. Through doing
this show I have I've run into these artists where
I'm like, I don't like this and I don't know
how to explain why. And I think I've figured out.
We did a Chapel Roone episode recently and I was
(51:19):
saying that I really liked the recorded version of that
particular song, but I saw it for the first time
performed on SNL, and I didn't like it so much.
And I think my issue is things that are influenced
by musical theater. I don't like it. I think it
is a very stupid art form. Wow, stupid but amazing
(51:42):
and requires a tremendous amount of talent and skill. But yeah,
I think that's my problem essentially.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
Wow, there's a bunch of theater kids at the dulc
stji ready, So.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
I know they're knocking down the door and they are very.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Sad, and we can we can actually see the Zigfeld
Theater throughout the window.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
I mean, I'm as an imp person, I'm just around
and sketch person around theater kids constantly and they are tiring. Yeah, no,
little bit, a little bit, but also very talented, very
lovely comedy.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
We love you, No, I also relate. I think that's
actually what kept me away from the stage for many years,
was just like being annoyed by them warming up in
like public settings and things like that. But I have
to say, you know, I'm from a family of singers
and we were we like every tape we had back
in the day was like like video we had was
(52:37):
always it was musicals, and it was Disney movies, which
are also musicals. And I think that like people would
ask me when I would be at parties, I would
be singing Hercules and I would say, this song is
great at my house, you have to listen to this.
They'd be like, are you a theater kid? And I'm
like no, And I find that very insulting actually, But
now I think I was meant to be one.
Speaker 4 (52:59):
Of a lot.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Well, you went to parties when you're younger, Yeah, that
is fascinating stuff.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Tell you all about that, you reveal, Yeah, crazy, I'll
tell you all about that next time. This was our
first listen to tell us about yours. Find us at
first Listen podcast and find shem and I on the
stage and screen at Upright Citizens Brigade Theater on what
(53:30):
day is it?
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Hell yeah, that's sort of information I should know.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
My phone is over there April twenty six, the last
Saturday of the month, at eight thirty.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Oh yeah, we do. I used to be black. That's
how I sat.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
I call it U see black, But you can call
it whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
It's a fun or black. I'm black. By the way,
I don't know. It's a shocking late in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Review, this podcast was directed by a night schell lam.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
What this whole time? But yeah, we do like a
very fun rorietory show. We have like lots of like
stand up and character performers and sketch comedians Justin Katchens
who may have heard talking about lou Pa Fiasco uh
as the host, as as as we have like really
fun cool guests people from SNL and HBO and you
(54:23):
know TV starg Stars of Stage and Scream. Uh yeah,
it's very cool. We have white Snaka is going to
be a special guest as well.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
As one of my favorite improvisers on the show. I
just saw the poster the other day. No wow, sorry, no,
Carl tart Oh yeah, I was. I almost said a
few weeks ago, like hey, you should see you should
try and get him on the show. I think he
worked at UCB in l A.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, he's a yeah, it's so funny. I was like
famous now because I remember it's just like coming up
and we'd like done shows him with like the Magnet,
like hung Out in LA and so yeah cool, and
I was like, oh my god, Carl, and it's like yeah, Carl,
he like his team is just in New York. Yesterday
they did the Big Team. They did the show fun Time.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, he's he's hilarious, as are many of the other
performers on the show.
Speaker 3 (55:15):
Let's see if we can keep up comedically.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
So and also, the show last month sold out, so
if people do want to go, they should buy their
tickets in advance.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah, you better get those asap because the show's coming
up around the corner.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
That's April twenty sixth. We're sure about that.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
I am sure about it.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
Yeah. You can catch me around town just like doing
stuff and I always all I do is post about
it on my Instagram. What's what I'm at my show
called life. No, I do not know about the TV
show or anything about Clare Danes. It was just the
fun tie.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
All right, let's get out of here.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Thanks for listening, Thanks for listen.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
We'll be back next week with the new episode out five.
You always the Ghost of Morse.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
He's here a black Buster No.
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