ENCORE PRESENTATION: ''My Journey From Trauma'' with guest Heidi Philipsen

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Episode Transcript

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The following is a paid podcast.iHeartRadio's hosting of this podcast constitutes neither an
endorsement of the products offered or theideas expressed. Welcome to Becoming the Journey.
This show will be a series ofconversations that will inspire listeners along their
life's journey. This show's mission isto cultivate a community of mentorship by sharing

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our experiences in our life's journey.Nobody's journey is a straight line, So
no matter where you are in yours, this show is for you. Meet
Grace Loverae HI listeners and this isBecoming the Journey on WOR seven ten iHeartRadio.
Today's show is about perseverance in lifein the film industry, The Best

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and the Ugly, and my guestis Heidi Phillipson. She currently resides in
Germany with her husband and is nowan empty nester, which a lot of
people get to, I don't know, experience and then I firmly leave enjoy.
Heidi has a bio that I amjust going to run off because it's

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so long and so impressive, butanyway, she is an award winning producer,
director, writer and actress with twentyfive plus years in Film, International
TV and Media in the industry.Her focus is on international film co productions.
She has a BA in Film Theaterand Germany Literature, a Certificate of

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Completion and Foreign Study Abroad, anMA in International Communications, a certificate in
Film directing and Cinematography. She haswon in Advanced screenwriting from the Professional Screenwriting
Program at UCLA, a Certificate inInternational Production Management, multiple years of advanced

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training and acting, and an MBAin Management for Eastern Michigan University College of
Business. She's a member of theProducer's Guild of America, the International Committee,
and Women's Impact Network Committee, amongother things, SAG after AEA,
New York, WIFT. She isthe founder and President emeritus WIFT Germany,

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the Alliance of Women Directors. Andit goes on and on and on and
on. Hed it's way too long, but extremely impressive. So welcome to
my show. Oh great, thankyou so much for having me. Yeah,
no, this is going to befun and thank you. I know
it's late in Germany, but that'sokay. We'll get through this. So

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my main question and then we'll getinto the past and a little nitty gritted
things, is so there's many youngpeople vying to be in this so called
entertainment arena, and the last sixmonth strike has left many dissillusioned. Why
did you choose this course? Whatwas it in your younger age, since

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you're in it twenty five plus yearsthat wanted you to be in this industry?
You know, it's amazing. Ithink I was just talking to my
therapist about this today. Actually,you know, it's two things. Let's
face it. When you go andgo to the movies or in the theater
for that matter, you get tobe taken away. You go to another

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world. You see how maybe anotherperson or main character will face big odds
and come against them. Or yougo into the fantasy world, or you
go into the world of love whereall is forgiven and you move on.
And in a way, it's actuallyan approved form of disassociation, right you

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are not in the shoes that youcurrently reside. You can go somewhere else
for even a short moment. AndI think that that's one of the reasons
that I was always I always feltthat poll The second reason is simply from
a very young age, they oftensay, well, what did you do?
What gavee you great joy from theget go? And that was always

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performing, always be funny, always, I think getting a certain amount of
attention that way, because I waswitty at five and I love to sing
and I love to dance, andI remember Shirley Temple and all the musicals.
And I think the other thing ismy father loved movies so much.
I mean, it was almost likea religion for us, you know.
And I think my story in thiscase isn't singular. I've heard of talk

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to many people that's sort of similar. They had a family member who brought
them in and Thanksgiving, you intothe movies. Christmas, you went to
the movies. Easter. It wasthe big blockbuster, right And to this
day, when I'm in the movietheater, I love the theatrical experience.
I love being in a movie theater. I always fight to have a film

(04:58):
in the theater and go to thetheater because it's almost a form of yeah,
a service, just sitting there amongstothers and getting ready for the movie
and watching it. I always feelmy father's presence with me there, and
he was just a very special personin my life. You know. It's
funny. For the holidays, youjust brought up a memory for me.

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For the holidays, aside from I'mone hundred percent Italian, so far from
the food, which was very important. Every year we used to go to
Radio City Music Hall and watch theRockets, and I'll never forget one year
we stood on the line around theblock for the first showing of the Ten
Commandments, which was huge, andso yeah, I do recall that.

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And although I'm not in the businessof performing, which I guess that's not
really true because we all perform atsome point, I did sit with my
dad and watched he was a bigWestern fan, or James Cagney and all
of those wonderful performers. So yes, those are some of my best memories

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too. Absolutely, And when youwatch them, do you feel like you've
there with you? I mean Ifind that too, right, Like,
so if you watch a classic,let's say Oklahoma, or do you sense
that he's close to you? Becausethat's how I feel. And I'm just
curious always, yeah, absolutely always. I mean look, growing up,

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I mean we didn't have the technologywe have today. We had a black
and white TV. We didn't knowwhat color was, and it was like,
wow, we have a TV.And it was our watching of that
TV was monitored because we had to. And look, I don't want to
sound like I came from a verystrict family. I did, but you

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know, we had to have ourhomework done, we had to have dishes
done, and then it was okay, what do we watch? And and
it was usually a western my orcomedy, I mean The Honeymooners or something
like that. Yeah. But butmy dad was a big John Wayne fan
and James Cagney. Actually he lookedlike James Cagney and so uh so,

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yes, whenever I tell me,right, whenever I see those classics,
absolutely it reminds me of my dad, and it brings me back to those
to those days that you know,I actually passed now, but that that
I you know, I spent withhim, uh you know, watching TV,
which is something young people do notdo today. They don't watch.

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First of all, they don't watchTV. Everything's on their computer, iPad
or telephone. But they don't theydon't share that with their with their family,
their parents, and and that's ashame because that's a memory they won't
have. Well, the interesting thingis, since my kids have moved out,
I've actually said I have found whenthey come back now, they will

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I think now they under they getit now that they're out of the house.
So we just watched Terry Potter becauseit just I can't help it.
Every year when school starts, forsome reason, I need to watch the
entire series, all the different films. And so they watched it with me,
and I couldn't believe it. Iwas, really I was, because
they definitely are gen Z and theybelong to they'll watch it on their computer

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or iPhone, but not really theydon't have even have a TV for that
matter, exactly. I actually was. I felt like I won a little
something the fact that they were goingto watch that with me. So yeah,
no, and it's great. Iactually fortunate to share all that with

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my granddaughter. Now she comes overand she sits and will watching a TV
series or or a movie or something, you know, which is which is
fantastic, and even in the musicindustry, so you know, I go
back with you know, I'm ofthe the the journey, you know,
uh Pink Floyd and uh ply withMac and right, and and to be

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honest with you, my kids nowand they're grown. I mean that you
know the product of the eighties,uh and nineties and and they love that
music, so something of me kindof spun off on them. So you
mentioned your therapist, and so Iwant to I want to go back and

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we don't have to elaborate on onsomething a traumatic incident that happened to you
at a young age, and howeversimplified you want to present it is fine
with me. But I think ittold a little bit of your story as
to why when you mentioned it's sortof like acting, directing, writing is

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sort of like coming out of yourselfand being somebody else. Can you talk
about that a little bit? Yeah, sure, you know, obviously I
can't speak for everyone, but Ido know in gen X, which is
what I am. My parents areboth professionals. My mother actually was a

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chemist in the pharmaceutical industry and myfather was a pilot who then ended up
working his way up the ladder inthe community airline industry and started his own
so they were very busy. Theywere both Aquarius. My mother's actually still
alive, my father unfortunately passed away, and they were very independent, but

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they lived in a time where therewas a lot of support for childcare.
There wasn't a lot of support,and it was sort of like the wild
West. I feel like, youknow, it was a time in history
in the US where women were becomingmore professional, they were going after the
careers, but there weren't a lotof checks and balances on the system.

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So for me, it even juststarted with the babysitter after kindergarten, right,
and and then it moved on toan incident happening there and then actually
even vacation Bible School when I wasfive years old. I just a trigger
warning for some of the audience members. I remember my parents told me to

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pick me up and I was tiedto the flag hole with my other way
down. And I've just loved thatway, So you know, I have
gone a long way into replacing thosetraumatic memories with that can also associate a
large sense of shame and guilt,and that can carry a lot of other

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burdens with you as you move onin your life and then attracts, so
it kind of becomes a downward spiraluntil you start to get treatment, right,
and I think that whenever you're thinkingof dreams, you're getting away from
a situation at hand. You gooutside of yourself, and that's both what

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that has done for me is numberone at some point it forced me to
get therapy because in my life,I think that it also isolated me quite
a bit. And it made me, on the one hand, on the
good side, very independent because Ijust learned to be I was a loaner

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for a while there, and Ilearned to go my own way. But
on the other hand, it almostdestroyed me, and that's where the therapy
started to take over. And fromthat journey onward, it's about It has
made me an activist. A lotof what I do is about supporting women,
supporting empowerment, but not just women, anyone who's been through an abusive

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situation and social clause. And Ithink the other test for me really has
been, as I said, notjust replacing those sort of negative memories and
experiences, but really it can getin your DNA and it can really kind
of change your entire personality, whichis why a lot of people, including

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my father in his stage in hislife, medicates through alcohol or they find
other ways to medicate themselves, rightbecause you just want to be numb.
And I think that's also what forme. I can't speak for others,
but for me, disassociation is it'sa form of numbness where you can let
go and get away from the pain. There is always a plus to that,
though, and I think that that'swhere my journey has really been.

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The more I separate myself from thepain and the guilt and the shame,
and I replace it with good things, and I replace it with your survivor.
Or you can tell stories, Heidi, or you can reinvent yourself,
Heidi, or you can put yourselfin the most vulnerable person's shoes and understand
where they're coming from. That's whatempowers me, and I have to say

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in my life as an actress,but a really as a director, as
a writer, even as a producer. That has empowered me so much.
The fact that I've become so sensitive. I'm what might people refer to as
an EmPATH. In many ways,I often can sense what another person's experience
and the emotions before they even knowwhat it is themselves that hypersensit. That

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comes from my experience as a childand the hard work I've had to do
to learn to listen to my owninner voice and believe it and trust it
has really given me a strength onset when it comes to working with actors
and getting a sense of the storyand giving them the tool to get through

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even difficult scenes, are becoming anally with them as they move through them.
And that's extremely extremely important to me. Yeah, I I so,
I Look, I can't there aredifferent extremes of traumatic experiences, but I
don't know of anybody who hasn't experiencedsomething in their life. And and and

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what I what I call living ina prison of pain, and and then
you develop this lack of trust andand you want to you want to ignore
the fact that you don't want torecount all the indignities. And that's that's
extremely difficult. Why do you thinkand and I'll speak to you directly,

(15:48):
would would you wait to be ableto tell somebody? Why would Why do
we wait so long too? I'mnot saying figure it out to talk about
it with someone? Why does that? Why do you think that guilt takes
us over where we feel where responsibleand we can't talk about it. Well,

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first of all, I think there'sI can't speak for everyone, right,
I know that, And I'm nopsychologist, let's put that out there.
I can only experience, speak frommy experience and what I've learned over
the years. And what I've read. I think first of all, that
there's body language and that does speakright. So my body language at that

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time definitely spoke. The only thingis my parents didn't understand that language.
I started wedding the bed, mybehavior started to act erradically. I started
actually running into difficulty reading even rightbecause I couldn't concentrate. I think my
body language spoke a lot, butI'm not a I didn't have apparently,

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not even the teachers around me werechild psychologists enough to really understand what I
was going through at that day andage to help me out. I think
that's the first thing. And Ithink what that does is when you're a
child and your body language is sayingsomething and no one reacts to it,
you kind of learned the reinforcement orif nothing else, they do react it,

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but they see your body language andthey see you it's acting out and
misbehaving, and back in the daythey had really no perception of this.
They would get punished right for badbehavior. So that just negative reinforcement,
which taught you why better shut downand or it taught me that, and
that's where the disassociation happened more andmore. But also where I realized,

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Okay, this role doesn't want tohear what I have to say at this
point in time, and then youstart to go through re repression. Right,
you try to be normal, whateverthat is. You try to understand
what normal is. And I thinkthat's where my acting also came in.
I would be the chameleon who wouldfit in any role that someone wanted me
to have, just to you getpositive reinforcement or positive attention. So that's

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I think that's one reason. Anotheris it's nature versus nurture in many ways.
And for me, I went toa very very strict Lutheran grade school
that taught me that anything associated wasa sin, right, So that just
dogma just reinforced that I was partof something that was very not good,

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and in fact I was probably goingto go to hell. And when you're
a child, and you you arean innocent child who believes all the adults
around you so fervently you don't putinto questions. You carry that a long
time. I think the other thingtoo, is quite frankly, we live
it in different stages. So alot of what I went through actually kind

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of what dormant and latent it hadto for me to survive, so I
would pour myself and to become achampion swimmer, where I would pour myself
into a a student, to bea drum major, to all these things,
to get that acknowledgment and to bea perfectionist. But it wasn't until
I had my daughter, and mydaughter went through something when she was five,
that all of a sudden, itwas almost like the Fortress without even

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realizing or I would like to eventhink this idea of an alien being implanted
in me, right, it wasto experience this my daughter, that's something
in the story to come up.And I wasn't even aware of it myself,
and certainly people around me weren't awareof it. And once to get
my behavior changed, and thank goodnessfor me, I had things like group

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therapy where I had found a therapistto really understood PTSD and adult victims of
childhood sexual abuse that I could startto be treated and find my very very
slow way to recovery, which isnot going to process all the time,
just like I think anything else.But that's how I understand and why it

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takes some people longer than others.So here's an opinion question. Knowing what
you know now and the emotion andyour emotional journey. There's so much today.
I mean, young people are moreand more depressed. Young people are
committing suicide, young people are doingmore drugs or alcohol. Do you think
we've missed the boat like we didyears ago, where we're just not recognizing

(20:25):
those problems Like you just said,your parents your body language was there,
but your parents didn't understand it andit all came down to behavior. Do
you think that we are still inthat mode of just not recognizing it.

(20:47):
No, I mean I don't becauseof my own specific experience. I don't
believe in generalities to begin with,because if I were a number or statistic,
I wouldn't be honest arts right now, I'm probably would. It's committed
suicide long ago, and that's thetruth. But there's always that angel,
there's always that bright light, There'salways that something that keeps you to hold

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on. And then there's that creativeexperience, which is what creativity. I
mean, that's been a huge lifesaverfor me, And honestly, I've seen
that creative therapy is a very verystrong force. So I think we have
to look at as the case bycase look at we are. If you
look throughout history, right, We'vegone through horrible, horrible times and we've

(21:27):
come out on the other side.So you're talking to I mean, even
though I do try to keep myfeet on the ground, and I do
have my moments of ups and downslike anyone else. In fact, mine
can go quite low and I'm feelingdown about myself or maybe I'm not able
to take on a personal test thatI really want to take on and succeed

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in. I'm still an optimist.I have to be, because I have
gained so much out of some ofthe suffering that I went through and the
abuse ice. And I'm not glorifyingthat. I'm saying that I thank God
that well, first of all,thank God because I believe in God,
but also think the people around me, who are those angels when I needed

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them to step up. I mean, Grace, you're an angel to me.
I mean, just ability to beon this program with you and turn
this over for others to learn from. It's a wonderful, magical thing.
I was very frightened of it,actually, because I thought, how am
I going to speak to this It'ssuch a huge responsibility, and is it

(22:29):
going to make me fall back intomy own depression. You've been talking about
it, you know, and eventalking to my therapist about this and figuring
things out. I realized, No, this is You're up for this challenge
and you can help be part ofthe light. This is a choice to
be part of the light. Andthat's what we need to give all the
youth out there right now, isthey to let them know that even the

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darkest of times, light is stillthere. They can be a part of
it, and they can take backwhatever negative experiences or abuses or that happened
to them, and out of thatvoid, out of that dark black hole,
they can find a whole nother realmif they're willing to do the work

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to get there. Are we gettingthere? I Mean, I worry because
look, the Internet can be greatand it can be an evil, and
I think the Internet has disassociated youngpeople today, right, and I worry
about that, and I worry aboutthe mental illness, and I worry.

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I mean, I have three grandchildrenand I'd like to leave them a better
world than I've been in and myparents were in, and so but I
just see this. I can't explainit. I just see this, like
you just called it a black hole. I see this smoke screen and it

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worries me. And so that's why, you know, I asked you,
you know, do you think thatwe're recognized and maybe we maybe we are
recognizing it, we're just not We'rejust not acting on it. We're not
trying to solve it. We're justwell, that's where I have I'm sorry.

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I think that's where grace, that'swhere I get away from the emotional
and my brain goes more to it'sa matter of physics or it's a matter
of math. Right, You alwaysat some point have an evening out and
they cancel out each other at somepoint. I don't. I think ultimately
it's where we decide to put ourattention and put our energy. And I'm

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not in the States all the timeright now, I can say that oftentimes
I'm a little alarmed in the Statesand how much I mean, I love
the free market as much as anyoneelse. But if you put a price
tag on everything, and you gettoward the point where you're putting more price
tag on friendships and whatnot, that'ssomething that I personally decide to step away

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from. Not everything is money worthmoney, So there are things where I
don't even want to put a monetaryvalue on and that's a choice that I
have for myself to stay mentally fit. And oftentimes in the States in this
day and age of social media andwhatnot, I do see that it can

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be have negative impacts on people,especially if they don't have the discipline to
train their minds or to do what'sright for them. And that's just balance,
that's balanced living right. Anytime wewere in front of TV too much
or anything else, it's a testfor this generation. We haven't had it
around for all that long if youthink about it, right, and it

(25:55):
hasn't been completely negative. There've beengreat out of this. I mean,
look, I can be in Berlin, you're in New York, and here
we are having a conversation that's beingrecorded and will be live for people to
listen to. I think that's brilliant. So there are definitely positives out of
it. And I understand your concern. I think that's we are always worried

(26:18):
about what kind of legacy we're leavingbehind us, and I'm sure are for
parents, for fathers. Fore mothersdid that before us. I don't really
have all the answers to that.All I can do is just trying to
live in the now and be theexample from my own family and see that

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they've spread it, they pass iton. Are you what are things that?
Is this one of the things thatyou do with your radio show that
you try to bring good to theworld in the negativity that you absolutely?
I mean, look, if oneperson listens I'm happy and changes the way

(27:00):
they think or makes them feel betterabout themselves, that's fantastic. When I
first started doing the podcast, Ihad a guest on my show who worked
in the sandbox and she was extremelyshy and really frightened and anxious about being
on the show, and it wasa little difficult pulling things out of her.

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But her comment to me was,I am not good in the real
world. I live in the metaverse. I'm much more comfortable in the metaverse.
And I thought about that, andI said, well, that's like,
you know, like not even beingin the real world. You're just
you know, people don't really knowwho you are, and you're masking everything
who you are, and you know, and if you're a good, decent

(27:45):
human being, why wouldn't you wantto get out there in the real world.
Anyway, fast forward. I mether six months ago and she came
up to me and she said,I want you to know that your show.
Me being on your show changed mylife. And I was just blown
away, like why, and shesaid, because it made me realize that

(28:08):
I really needed to be in thereal world. I needed to communicate outside
this fake world that I've created tobe safe. And she said, and
I'm a much better person for it. So if I can do that,
if I that would be amazing.And so that's really why I do what

(28:33):
I do. It's not the onlything I do. But it started out
to be a fun thing, butyeah, it became more of a chore
now. But I keep going becauseof you know, guests like you and
some of the other guests that I'vehad that have been so amazing. You
know, there's a you were talkingbefore about emotional and behavior, and there's

(28:57):
something called metacot new and what itis is emotional consciousness. So you're conscious
about the emotion you're going through,but you don't let that control you.
You then go more towards the behavior, which and and that's what how you

(29:21):
change your response or reaction to somethingnot based on an emotion. But if
you're conscious about your emotion, thenyou can react better in your in your
behavior. And and I I toldyou that I totally get that. Yeah,
yeah, go ahead, And that'swhat you were saying that. Well,

(29:42):
it's very interesting because you may noticeI most recently got my MBA.
Part of the reason is because whenI was younger, I was way too
emotional, Like I could not,I could not continue my emotional behavior,
my constant emotional reactions to things.It all consuming. But the more therapy

(30:03):
I did, the more I wasable to and I was able to actually
explore my love for math, mylove for finance, my love for management,
and other concepts in it. Andso you know, we could also
take the conversation towards agism today becauseI feel as if I'm just now starting
to reap some of the joys ofall the work I've done in my life

(30:30):
on myself, and I look forwardto continuing that journey where I'm able to
separate much more constantly my emotions fromwhat I want to pursue or do,
and I don't let them control mein the same way. And I'm sure

(30:51):
even ten down, ten years downthe road is going to be even more
so. So I do hope aswell well that I think a lot of
the power in America, a lotof the pressure is given to the youth,
and I do sort of wish thatwe could come away from that a
little bit, because those fifty andolder, there's such gems. You learn

(31:17):
so much beyond them. We areliving longer and we have so much to
give, and those are some ofthe connectivity that I would love to see
rebuilt in communities, because you can'tput all the pressure on one particular generation
or one particular age group. You'vereally got to have everyone connected. And
there's wonderful things that you can getwhen you're in your younger years, but

(31:41):
there are so many other gems thatyou start to explore and open up to
in your older years that I hopeeverybody gets to have that and not just
feel that they're sort of being putout pastor for lack of a better term,

(32:04):
this is becoming the journey. That'swhat you're listening to on wor seven
ten iHeartRadio, and my guest todayis Heidi Phillipson. I agree with you,
and I truly believe that one you'renever too old to learn and I've
learned so much just doing this showfrom other people, and I like to

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think that every time I have aconversation with somebody, it humbles me even
more because they're just so inspiring.But I also truly believe that young people
or I don't care what age youare, can learn from each different generation,

(32:50):
not just the older generation, butevery generation, because let's evolve.
And you know, I often Ilisten to my mom talk about World War
Two. My dad was in WorldWar Two, and some of the stories
of what they went through and thestruggles and you know, and then I

(33:14):
listened to the next generation, whichI guess I am, you know,
about things that they went through andthe generation after me, and it's you
know, and that's where the communitybuild comes in, because you know,
we learn constantly. We have towant to learn constantly, and not only

(33:35):
through media, but through books andand you know, just it's a shame
though a lot of young people don'tread many books today, but but you
know, I learned so much throughbooks. They are fascinating. And media.
If if you had the opportunity toproduce, and I know you're you're

(34:04):
producing something right now which is probablyrelative to the war in Ukraine. It's
called Love and Vodka. And eventhough it's a rom com, what's the
message? I mean, do youin your in your profession, do you
feel that things that you do youwant to send a message from where you've

(34:27):
been, where you're going, whereyou've where you've where you want to go
to, you know where you arenow? Do you think that's important?
Always? Always? And sometimes Idon't even really know what the message was.
I mean, this film came tome in two thousand and I would
say seventeen eighteen from a high schoolteacher at the high school that my son

(34:52):
was studying at. It in ourWorst, Michigan. So he had had
the script. It was based uponsomething that had happened to him. He
had fallen in love with the Ukrainiangirl and followed her to Ukraine and met
the family, and he, asan American, pretty much stumbled upon every
faux pa you can imagine that youwould stumble into with her family, and

(35:15):
he was. He was so hewanted so much to ask her to marry
him, and he felt so muchunder pressure. And here he was this
nobody kid who wanted to be ascreenwriter and wanted to make something of himselves
and had to prove himself. Butit wasn't until he sort of accepted who

(35:35):
he was and embraced it, andembraced their differences and then learned that he
had things to learn from them andthat love connects. That he found himself
and went back and the love storykind of cemented itself there. The irony
is I was producing this film waybefore, and I I did it because

(36:00):
I liked the teacher a lot.I know that feeling of I've been doing
writing something. I want to makethis happen. I'm always for the underdog.
I believe so much in that.And then as I was sort of
producing this and we ran into to, of course, the pandemic, so
we were put off there for awhile, and we worked on it some

(36:22):
more. I finally found after goingto Kiev myself and going to the various
markets, the con market, ofcourse, the European fell market. I
found European co producers who were goingto help me fund this one point five
million dollar budget. And I wasexcited because I looked like it looked like

(36:42):
things were finally coming together for us. We were going to shoot the summer
of twenty two and then the warbroke out that February and all that hard
work fell apart, like completely fellapart. And then I thought to myself,
but why I'm totally feeling sorry formyself because of course now my Ukrainian
co producer, he was hiding forhis life. He had sent his family

(37:06):
abroad. They were refugees now,and there was no way he had to
go fight. He wasn't going tobe making a movie. And then I
thought to myself, but you know, Heidi, if they're going through that,
they've lost their homes, they've losttheir freedom, they've lost their families
in many cases, how can youfeel sorry for yourself right now? So
I think finally, for me,I was like, okay, well it's

(37:28):
not at one point five, butI know how to make a micro budget.
I know how to crowdfund. Iknow this is for a good cause.
Now let's make this film and thenif we can do it on a
very small budget, we can getit done, maybe do the festival route.
If it gets picked up for distribution, that's amazing, and we will
always do a caveat that once wecan make that money back, which isn't

(37:52):
a lot, because we didn't spenda lot. We did in kind donations,
We did everything, pulled favors,people working for next to nothing to
make it happen. And because wecouldn't shoot it in Michig in Ukraine anymore,
I actually found a space in northernMichigan that looked like Carpathian mountains and
we found artistic refugee status Ukrainians whohad moved to Michigan. I'm really excited

(38:19):
to be part of something creative thatwas about their home and feeling good and
family life in Ukraine and celebrating Ukrainianculture and wasn't just about the war.
So if we could do all that, and then when we do screenings and
raise some money for what's important tome are organizations that are helping children and

(38:40):
mothers with PTSD from the war,the Medza win win all around. Now,
it's not easy, it's a formof actimism. It's me. We
spent a huge amount of our ownpersonal money on the project, But I
have to say that in cutting itand bringing it together, I'm really happy.

(39:00):
And I don't really know why thisparticular endeavor came my way. I
just know that through the ups anddowns in it I've learned an enormous amount,
and above all, I always referback to that perseverance and determination and
the grit to get me through territorywhere other people would rather sign off and

(39:21):
say no, no, I'm notgoing to do this, no, thank
you. So we're not there yet. We're actually still pushing to get more
funds. We're in editing with aneditor who was a young man out of
Ukraine who's actually been this placed intoVancouver now of all things, because he's
hoping to get more work out there, and he's doing a brilliant job.

(39:43):
So you make it work and that'swhere you find your joy in collaborating and
creating and making something. And Ican't wait till we're there. But this
is this particular, this particular sortof baby in my life now, if
you will, not only it ababy, but the just filming something like
this that maybe has a message ofbeing uplifting, but a journey itself kind

(40:10):
of reflects where you've been and whereyou are now. So I think I
think it too right. I forgotto point out that the message is really
it is about, so we hadto also rewrite the story right. It
wasn't just your typical rom com wherehe goes over there, and I can't
give away the whole ending because Iwant people to see it. But we

(40:31):
do take a look at current eventsto a large degree. I have to
say too that even in speaking withthe editor, part of the reason he
decided to take on this project whenhe could have edited a slew of other
things is because he said to me, Heidi, I already know I see
it on TV all the time.What I know of the heartbreak, I

(40:52):
know of the destruction, I knowof the pain and the trauma. I
don't need to sit with that ina film about war in Ukraine right now
for hours on end, for weekson end, because I will fall a
complete depression. So for me towork on something that is uplifting, it's
funny and it's about bringing differences togetherfor love. I'm totally about that.

(41:19):
And we have a great time together. He laughs a lot, and that
makes me feel good. Absolutely.Do you think we need a lot more
films that are uplifting? Definitely?I actually got hooked on Lessons in Chemistry.
I had read the book and nowI'm watching this series and it's just
mom, it is fantastic. Youknow, Brie Larsen is amazing, but

(41:40):
it is totally uplifting. I mean, I haven't it's not finished. I
haven't seen it all that right now. They're the last one I saw was
they were getting more into the youknow, the Martin Luther King and all
of that, and you know whatwent on in that time. But it's

(42:00):
great. Anybody who wants to watchsomething that's kind of you, go for
it. It is. Well,I'm always looking at our good shows to
see you with my mom, andI'm heading out to Michigan for Thanksgiving,
so ah nice, yeah, waitto see that. We're going to binge
that. Then well we won't bingeit, okay, because let's close to
it. It's really it's really good, and so I kind of like that.

(42:22):
I love documentaries, but this iskind of kind of really really cute.
You do a lot of work withWomen in the Media International Committee and
Women's Impact Network. You are inUpstate Women in Film and Television. Tell

(42:44):
me a little bit. What directionare we going in now? Have we
come to a point now where we'vekind of evened out? I've heard met
Look, I just recently got intothe entertainment business. I'm not so I
like it, but it's very differentthan finance. But I hear men say,

(43:07):
you know, they forgot about us. Now we're like in the bottom
I know I've heard that too recently, and I don't believe that. For
if you look at the statistics,right, yeah, and I know you
know how to read statistics really well. So the bottom line is this,
we've actually gotten down in the lastcouple of years. We were over the

(43:29):
last eight years, we were ona trajectory that was looking going up,
and then people get complacent and everyonesays the coast is clear, and then
we go back down again, andit's not. The numbers are not great.
I know that the media does anenormous amount and pr is an enormous
amount to highlight that one, two, three, four, even five female

(43:52):
directors and the large I think thepositive is that, yes, we do
have so many more women who arein higher positions in the film world and
entertainment business, in the TV world. But that being said, it's not
even by any means, okay,And even if the numbers and the positions

(44:14):
might be even, we know fora fact that the wages are not even.
And yet last time I checked,you don't get seventy five cents per
dollar discount when you're going to aplace like NYU or whatnot. Right as
a film student, you're paying thesame amount. Now, there are scholarships
out there, but not everyone getsone, and these film schools in the

(44:36):
States especially are extremely high. InEurope, they don't charge there's film schools
here that are amazing massed. Theydon't charge you anything practically, and not
only that, the regional funding andthe government funding will pay for your thesis
feature film, and then they willpay to put the marketing into it to
get it out there so that youcan actually go someplace after those experiences.

(44:58):
But in the United States, Ithink that PR teams do an exceptional job
of highlighting certain people while the restsimply are not surviving. It might be
their sort of on the side hobbyjob, but it's not something that they
can sustain and you know, saveup for retirement. I mean, I

(45:21):
know, for my for myself andmy entire workload that I've ever taken on,
I don't have nearly enough saved up. And it's for me the one
area where I'm actually very concerned.And that's why I say activism because I
don't. I don't. I knowthat was a choice that I made to
go in that direction, but Idid not think that that choice would mean

(45:47):
financially that I would have to beso afraid at this stage of my life.
So and I know I can saythis because I know for a fact
that there are many women out therewho feel the same way. And you
know, I'm I'm lucky. Imean, I'm very very fortunate. You

(46:09):
know, I'm not a single mother. I'm I don't have other I have
my own obstacles, of course,but not not what many women have.
So I don't think we're there yet. And I really wish that we could
get to a place where we wouldunderstand there's enough for everyone that it doesn't

(46:30):
have to be men then saying ohyeah, no, I can't get my
stuff made. No one's interested init. Well, look everything I've ever
done, I've had to make myself. No one has produced a feature that
I could come on as a director. It's just not going to happen.
At this point. I get rejectedall the time. I get told all
the time, well, it's agreat script. You know, you've gotten

(46:52):
top fifteen percent in the Nickels,But sorry, you're not big enough to
direct it. So no one isgoing to get give me those opportunities,
and I have to work really hardto make them for myself. Look,
I think it's an absolute shame thatthe same people constantly get picked. And

(47:12):
let me give you my spin onthis, and again I'll repeat, I'm
recently thrown into this whole entertainment world. I am not going to deny that.
I mean, I'm in the financeworld too many years. I don't
even want to think about it.And it's still run by the old white
male regime. As much as wetry, and so I have to assume

(47:36):
that the studios are all run bymen, and and you know there's still
that whole you know, control poweraspect of it. But you know,
I can't help but think that theytake these actors and actresses or or I'll

(47:59):
call them entertainment noons, okay,because I refuse to call them celebrities and
use them because they're the moneymakers andof course capitalism is what it is.
But then then you go so faras to them going on and talking about

(48:21):
cryptocurrency, or they're touting some productthat they never use, or they and
to me that puts a total badtaste in my mouth. And I will
harp a little bit on the wholecrypto thing. You know, how many
so called touted crypto for women andlook what happened. So I think we

(48:42):
relied too much. Yes, werelied too much on celebrity status, which
I think is a joke in half. But maybe, and I'm just thinking
maybe the fact that this whole metoo move men, And I am not
in any way disparaging it. Thereare a lot of creeps in the entertainment

(49:07):
industry as well as across the boardin every other sector. But I mean,
look at Nigard just you know wasfound guilty. I mean he's eighty
years old. Why not when itwas thirty when it was happening. However,
but do you think we got abad name for ourselves kind of doing

(49:28):
that where they're afraid of us nowand they're saying, ah, you know,
we don't because the younger people arespeaking up more. What are the
younger people who are speaking up moresane? Well, I think younger actresses,
younger writers, younger directors, whateverare not going to take the garbage
that That was the point though,right, I mean that was the point

(49:49):
if even the fact that we arehave created somewhat of a field of more
transparency, then it's all worth it. Look my very first production coordinating gig,
I had a first AD who toldme who came out of LA told
me I wasn't going to be anything. And by the way, what I
do in sexual favors, I mean, I have had scent coordinators tell me,

(50:10):
heyhan, you know, introduced meto the first ad and a huge,
huge show and say this is myfuture ex wife. And then you
know, my name isn't even likegiven out. Instead it said, oh,
you know how to pick them withlong legs, don't you? I
mean, And by that time Ihad already had like all of my degrees.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And yes I was in shock,

(50:32):
and yes I did something. Andthen guess what, I didn't work
in that area anymore. Suddenly thejobs just disappeared. No word. These
systems, when they are created acertain way, they become like fortresses that
nobody singularly can dismantle. And Ithink that's the big issue there. That's
why so many people even if youhave I know, there's a lot of

(50:54):
sort of backlash now against me tooin many ways, But I still believe
in it because until that point intime, no one was saying anything at
all, and no one understood allthe jobs that I created later on for
women. All the women I mentored, not a single one understood what I
went through. They didn't understand myPTSD, and they didn't ask, And

(51:17):
had they asked, maybe they wouldhave understood exactly that I felt like a
soldier and getting to a place whereI could actually pass something down. And
I have to I maybe you misunderstoodme. It was. It is an
amazing thing that these women did andstood up, and I hope that it
continues, and I hope, youknow, anyone that's ever dared to treat

(51:42):
a woman differently gets the blame.But what I'm saying is in these older
men, these so called studio whatever, they're afraid now because we have spoken
of that was really what I wastrying to say. I don't be a
bad thing, do you. Imean there's good fear and bad fear.

(52:04):
I think there's respect. I wouldn'teven grace. I don't know if I
would use the word fear. Andif that is fear, then so be
it, they can get a therapist. Quite frankly, I've had one,
you know. I mean, there'sa certain amount of respect. It's healthy.
Look, if we really care,if it's really about storytelling, which
everyone says they're all on board.I mean, of course there's those who

(52:27):
will say it's just about money,it's a product, and those are the
ones who we rely upon what theyunderstand celebrity to be. And oftentimes I
find that those are the films thatnobody wants to watch after a while because
they were just a formula that didn'twork. But I think if people really
care about true storytelling, like mostof us dream of them, why we

(52:49):
stay in the industry and what wehope to be able to achieve at some
point, and some have achieved itand they've inspired the rest of us,
then you know, we have toevolve. And those who are they not
going to learn to respect, they'regoing to be the dinosaurs that become extinct,
because that's the way. It's tricky. If you had half a minute
to give some sentence of advice toyounger people trying to get into the industry,

(53:15):
what would you say, follow yourheart, know your mind, and
listen to your instinct. There aregood people out there, there are also
some bad people. Say no tothe bad people and yes to the good
people, and you'll find your way. Heidi, thank you so much everyone
you've been listening to Becoming the Journey. Love to have you. Keep tuning

(53:37):
in on WOR seven to ten iHeartRadio, and you can follow us on Instagram
at Becoming the Journey. Bye bye. You have been listening to Becoming the
Journey hosted by Grace Lavery. Tunein weekly to hear more conversations that will
inspire listeners along their life's journey.No Bracy was a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's

(54:01):
hosting of this podcast constitutes neither anendorsement of the products offered or the ideas expressed