October 23 & October 30, 2025 - Shawne 'Lights Out' Merriman

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, all right, all right, we're here in Las Vegas, Nevada.
I got mister lights out himself, my guy, Sean, and
thanks for letting us come to your beautiful residency and
giving us the Times today.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Man, appreciate it, Man, thanks for coming fired up.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
I think let's just dive in.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
We were kind of chopping up before the pod about
you know, everything really but everything I wanted to see.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
My mind's on the youth right now.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You see guys like Greg Olsen and Luke uh coaching
youth football and whatnot. Do you think that my opinion,
we still need Oklahoma drills in this world. We still
need teeing the cage and whatnot. What is your take
on that? And then what was your favorite hitting drill
and your tak oh?

Speaker 2 (00:42):
I mean it was always Oklahoma. It has to be always.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
We called it bullet of the ring too, boomering, yeah, yeah,
yea yeah, bull bollo ring.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
But you know, I think there's a time and place
for it.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
Like I think Oklahoma drills when the time is necessary
is good because you gotta you gotta find out who
who's not scared for of contact and collision.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hey, basketball team, these players too.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:04):
And we've you've probably seen it before where you have
guys come trying out for football, go out and have
one of those Oklahoma drills.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Next you know, they take it off.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
They don't want they don't want to smoke.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
They're going back to whatever sport. But you need listen nothing. Look,
football and Oklahoma drills have made so many scientists and
engineers out here in the world, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think it's needed. Now.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
I think there's limitations to that because some of these coaches,
especially you coaches, are kind of getting off to these
kids banging each other up, you know, doing practice and
these hard hits. So you can have social media moments
and it's ooh like that don't so don't take advantage
of it. But you you have to find out because
those guys are gonna get put in the fire, and

(01:47):
you need to find out who is willing to go
to battle, who's not afraid of contact, who's not afraid
of these big collisions.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
So those those drills are always gonna be needed.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
I even want to say, like the contrast to that too,
where you know, I remember my first Oklahoma Joe, my
dad we went to big five sporting goods.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
He got shoulder pads, got a helmet, and he's like.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Tackle me, okay, tackle me and me I'm probably eighty pounds.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
At this point going into eighth grade and small.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Moan right right, but he's like.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Jogging in their backyard and I'm he's like tackle me.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
And once you get used.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
To kind of like, okay, hey, maybe I'm an undersized guy.
But at the same time like tackling as you know,
like Cooper de Jean's gonna stick Derek Henry constantly because
he's a good tackler.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
You get the leverage underneath their ass, like you can't
be going up high if you're a smaller dude.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
And I think just that backyard show with my dad
made me.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
My first day of Oklahoma's realized, like you can't run
two of them, you want to run through him, right, Yeah.
So I think Oklahoma's great for yes, reading out you know,
the guys who want to go play basketball, but also
giving you that confidence like hey, I.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
Could do that too, Yeah, And the look tackling is
more of a want two. Everybody can tackle if they
wanted to. It's a mentality thing, you know. I was
talking about my son before he got on and my
son is playing. He's a quarterback at the Paul Catholic
finished up in the middle of their freshman year. And

(03:14):
because I played linebacker, because of how what I'm known for,
initially everybody thought that, you know, he'll play d N
or lineback and I'm like, no, don't.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
He didn't have that. That's just not him.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
That's not even I could talk as much as I
want to play around with, he ain't tackling nobody. But
you know, he's he's an outstanding quarterback. You know, he's
one of one of the top rate in the country
in his class twenty twenty nine. But the mentality I
don't think is the now. He would if he had to,
But me, I didn't want it to hit people. I
don't care about nothing else. I wanted to hit people.

(03:46):
That's all I cared about. But that was my mentality
of playing football. And you like, everybody can do it,
but it's just take the mentality to say I'm gonna
go hit somebody in the mouth today. And if you
don't have the mentality, you're just not gonna You're not
gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
When it goes along with the triggers we were talking
about where you're just saying like, hey, man, like I
gotta go run through this wall right now.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
It's my job.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
I'm l three on kickoff, They're gonna come at me.
I need to hold my lane like this. Maybe I'm
gonna get picked up, but I'm going to run full
speed and my guy is not gonna make the tackle
office And that's just the way it's gonna be. And
that's part of the walk to to do. I do think,
you know, there it is a specific breed. Like not
everything turn that switch necessarily, but I think it's a

(04:30):
it's something that when you're a young football player and
you do find out you have that switch and you
got the lights out nickname, I feel that the.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Story tell me walk me through.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
Uh, you know, it's it's so funny, man, because you
know the game is different right now, right, it's just different.
And I think the times that like we played or
I played, it's you gotta paut it, right, you know, like, hey,
you you got a body, you get stars and get helmets,
get you know, you get helmets like you you get
out there and you gotta plot off. And I think

(05:00):
that now it's a little bit frowned upon, but at
that time you gotta understand too, man, like where I
grew up and where I came from. It was a
escapegoat for me to do that tell the people on
the field, it was like, oh, this is legal, right,
and yeah, it's like we're between the lines between what's

(05:22):
I can do anything I want to you great, that
is that is amazing. And I actually started playing basketball
first and I was just a physical basketball player. My
coach has really brought me over the football and that's
when I'm really like, oh, this is this is where
it's at.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Now. I still play basketball.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
I was, I was ranked coming out of PG count
Prince George County, Maryland and.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
All that stuff. But I did it and I love
I like basketball.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
I didn't love it, you know, because I love football
and I love the physicality of it. I love what
I can do to another human being on and not
get in trouble for this like this, it is amazing.
But yeah, you know I got the got the nickname
by knocking four kids out and in the game actually unconscious. Yeah,
well a couple I'm unconscious. Like to you can see.
The thing is you can walk to the sideline and

(06:08):
not know you walk to the sideline.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
You get what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
And I and so you know, guys wasn't like passed out,
sleep on the ground stretchers. But yeah, it wasn't stretches
like they got to go to the hospital, right. I
mean I have sent people to hospital for sure, But
in that in that case where guys like didn't know
where they were at, you know, by the time they
woke up from it, it's like when they gained conscious again,
it's already two quarters now, right, two goaters gone by,

(06:34):
Well got you know, lead on the lead block block,
come and try to block me and break his collar
bone and and he leaves the game, right, got knocked
out plus a broken collar bone. So it's it's one
of those things, man, that all started out as like
kind of a myth, like people are like, no.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Way, there's no way this dude is that come on?

Speaker 4 (06:53):
That's saying crazy, Yeah, race knocking people out at their
size right. In fact, man, I was my sophomore year
at Frederi Juges High School. I was one hundred and
seventy pounds, like linebacker off the line of scrimmage, and
I was I was hitting people so hard at that
time that I would actually get these stingers my shoulders,

(07:14):
and you when you lose the fingers. The filming I
was getting, I was out hitting my body.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
And I got a.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
Chance to meet LaVar Arrington, who then played for the
Redskins from when he got drafted from Penn State, and
I became really close friends with him, and I played
basketball with his younger brother Eric, and I was telling
LeVar one off season after my sophomore, yes, man, I
keep getting these stingers my neck and my shoulders, losing fingers,

(07:42):
filling my fingers. I didn't know what it was really
at then or why, and so he said, look, work
on your neck and your shoulders the whole off season
and they'll it'll go away. So the following season I
gained I think almost thirty pounds.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
I came back to five.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
Now now now I'm kind of yoked up a little
bit now and I'm you know, kind of coming in
my body, but I'm still running the same as I
was a smaller kid. So now you got the combination
of somebody who's running as fast until you now with
size and strength. And I found the weight room never
had more stingers again, and even went away.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
We're offers starting to come in at this point.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
Then, yeah, my sophomore year, I went to University of
Maryland's they had a camp where they had all the
best kids coming in from DC, Mayland, Virginia right area,
and probably it was hundreds of kids out there. So
I came in my sophomore year and they had me
working with the sophomores, and so now I'm just out
hitting everybody. I'm just and then the next day's a

(08:40):
three day camp. The next day they moved me up
with the juniors, and then I'm starting out hit people there.
And then finally in the last day camp, they moved
me up there with the seniors. Mind I'm still a sophomore.
We're just find to shut My sophomore year and I
think I was around I was sixteen years old, and
so I'm walking off the field and actually Mike Loxley,
who's the head coach now, was the running back coach then,

(09:03):
and it was coach Vandalin.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Coach Vandy was the head coach.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
And as we're walking off the field, all the coaches
came following me and circled me up as we're walking
and said, we're going to be we'll come see you soon.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
We went off for your scholarship.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
So I was actually offered my first scholarship as a
sophomore in high school.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Wow. So that's that's how it happened. And then you
ended up going to Maryland. Going to Maryland a part
of the deal with it.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
No, it was, you know, I was still getting I
was still getting recruited by Miami, and I had letters
from Alabama and USC and Florida and Florida State.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
You know, it was still coming in.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
Actually, it will start coming to my basketball games to
to washing me play basketball. When I was at Frederick Douglas,
trying to get me to de commit to come there.
Miami was on me really tough. Miami was probably one.
If I didn't go to Maryland, I would ended up
at Miami and those teams they had down at Oh,
that's prime.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
It was.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
It was it was sitting the back right now, the back. Yeah,
you know you're you're pedigree of being a linebacker.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Who'd you model? Well.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
I was fortunate to come across in person and meet
LeVar Arrington, and LeVar at the time was a freak.
I mean he was just a freak. Athlete, played running
back in high school. It was like all state and
running back, all everything coming out of Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
And so I started to learn a lot from him.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
But as far as watching, somebody who had never got
a chance to meet yet was Lawrence Taylor. And I
started watching Lawrence Taylor initially when I was a kid
because of the fear that he put in people and
the other grown men.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
And so I said, you know, I was looking even
as a kid.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
I was like, I noticed how people were just shining
away from him and they were, you know, they didn't
want to see him. I mean, I said, these are
other grown men with families on the field. It's like
I couldn't man, Like, I couldn't understand. Like I was like,
he's just he's just another man. But the ability to
put fear in other guys like that, I was like, man,
that that must be great. And then in two thousand,

(11:08):
it was after my sophomore year in high school and
where I grew up in Maryland. My my high school
coaches they said, hey, do you want to see a
linebacker play? And I was like, yeah, I mean of course.
So in two thousand they took me to see the
Ravens game. A Ravens game. So my high school coaches, they,

(11:29):
you know, none of us had a whole bunch of
money and all that stuff. So they all gathered some
money and then we all went to a Ravens game.
And bro, when I tell you, we sat so high
up in the stands, like I could have turned around
the chains of light bulbs up there, like we were
way up there that we were like three seeds from
the top, from the very top looking. Yeah, I mean,
and so this is their their year, and I think

(11:49):
they won the Super Bowl right in two thousand. So
at the time, I'm not I'm in the football, but
I'm not watching teams like that. You know, We're sitting
up in the top and everybody Peter ball where and
all these guys, Sarah Gusa and all these guys got
introduced at the tunnel, run at the tunnel, and everything

(12:12):
just got quiet, and then people got loud, and then
smoke came up.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
It was like a concert to me. And so.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Ray Lewis is being introduced last, and I'm sitting up
there and I'm watching him, and I'm you know, I
used to joke around about people like normal people passing
out the concerts. You know, you watch like Prince concerts,
Michael Jackson concerts. So when I was sweating, passing out
and all this stuff, like, man, you guys are ridiculous.
Man a human, what are you doing? This is ridiculous?

(12:47):
And Ray came out and Nelly He's come out to
Nelly's hot in here, right, So everything got quiet for
like ten seconds and then walked out and then the
beat dropped for Nelly, and then Ray came out and
grabbed the grass and threw it up and it smoked
and the fireworks and for the first time in my life,

(13:09):
I felt like I was going to pass out because
I'd never seen it got me fired up. I never
seen somebody, a football player, be able to do that
to a crowd where they made people feel that way.
I'm sitting there and I watched the whole game, and
you know, they're out there. It's best defense probably, you know,
outside of eighty five Bears. They got to be up there,

(13:29):
what top three, top four defense all time?

Speaker 2 (13:32):
It was. They were stacked.

Speaker 4 (13:34):
We're walking out of the stadium and I tell my
coaches and said, hey, I want to do that one day.
I want to do that and so that that's when
I made up my mind and I made a decision
that I was going to do everything I couldn't play
in the NFL.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
So speaking of Ray, like, who's your top five linebackers
all time?

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Inside or outside? Because I let's go inside.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
Ray inside for sure? You know Dick is up there? Uh?

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Who else? We got Derrek Brooks. Mmmm. It's just tough
because you know it's crazy. I'm such a fan. I
mean I'm not.

Speaker 4 (14:17):
I can't put London Fletcher or anything like that up there,
but you know, some of those guys deserve more credit.
And you got to steal curtain that was there was there.
I mean, Mike put Mike Singletary at four.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Maybe you know.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
Ken Norton, I mean you can, you can, really, God,
I don't know if I have a fifth man because
it's like three or four when I got tired as
a as the fifth you know, yeah, you gotta be
I mean you got to think about putting Patrick Willis up.
I was gonna say, yeah, I think you put I
think you put Patrick Willis at that fifth spot. I mean,

(14:52):
being a but it's hard because now you've got to
make a case. Luke Luke Kickley slept On, You get
what I'm So that's why that that fifth spot is
really hard for me because I always had a old
school mentality when it came to the game. I mean,
if there's no raised on, disputed to me number one
and you got me, look Junior s is he you know,
maybe put him in front of Mike Singletary. So it's

(15:14):
it's really hard. And when you go, I think Ray
at one, and you can't go wrong if you switch
anyone of those top the rest of them.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
For Yeah, who's your favorite linebackers right now in the game.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Inside outside?

Speaker 4 (15:28):
You know, love inside Fred Warner. I love watching Fred
want He's one of my favorite players to watch. Brokwan Smith. Yeah, man,
I mean you can go all day with some of
these guys. But yeah, those two inside.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Wise, Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
So when you finished up at Maryland, you knew you
were going into the draft. What were the expectations, What
was your kind of vibe? You know, I know you're
a first rounder.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, well you gotta you gotta understand too.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
I only started one full time yet Maryland, one full
one four year my junior year. I was splitting time
my first two years. They had me playing a position
like it's called leo left and outside like it's I
was in the two point stands over tight end. Well
I wasn't even really past rushing that way, but I
was coming off the bench top three in acc and sacks,
you know, off the bench. And there's there's a lot

(16:18):
of reasons for that too. I think one they were
trying to keep minds there. They knew I was, I
was leaving. But I think the other part was, you know,
at that position, it just wasn't for me. If I
can just pin Mariers back and go, I would have
probably broke every college record there was sack wise. But
when I got drafted, you got to think that I
was the highest drafted player at the time coming out

(16:40):
of University of Maryland. Ever, and then the following year,
Vernon Davis was you know, it was you know, I
was kind of the black the black sheep, you know, like,
you know, I talked a lot. I wanted to fight,
you know, just I was I was, I was him, yeah,
and I just you know, I was just nasty, you know,
and and you know people are not accustomed to seeing that.

(17:03):
Then you frowned upon it a little bit. But I
think also too, I was I was young in the
way I grew up. That was the only way I knew,
you know, So I think there was a disconnect and
really the coach was freezing, which we got very close,
you know, on my way out, but just didn't understand,
like been through my in my life. It was like, yeah,
I'm coming out of people up because this is the

(17:24):
only way I knew how to express myself on the field.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
And it was a lot. It was a lot.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Now that I'm older, I look back on it now,
I was like, man, I was, I was dealing with
a lot growing up, and that was the only way
I can dish out some punishment, you know. So I
kind of had this, this this dog to come out
all the time because that was in I was in
constant survival mode, you get what I mean, And that
was really my only way of getting it out on
the field.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Did the lights out nickname travel automatically or because.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Obviously you still got it.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
It happened.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
It happened in high school, yeah, and then in college
is it natural?

Speaker 4 (18:00):
And then in the league did it it kind of?
It was one of these things where it was such
a folk tale, right and don't don't get me wrong.
Like I came in, I you know, I was all
of it. So I had, you know, that persona with
me too, you know, And and I think a lot
of people just really didn't understand that that was the
way I had to live in order to survive, to

(18:22):
get to where I was at, you know, and that
I really kept that, you know, that part of me stayed.
And so I was when it came to that. I
was very misunderstood when it came to that. But a
lot of the older guys, I played with some dogs.
I mean I played with E. J. Henderson, Dominique Foxworth,
Randy Starks who played you know, played down to Miami
for some time, D tackle, and you know Vernon Davis

(18:44):
on that team, and we had Duquel Jackson played it
was that linebacker to played in Cleveland and the coach.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
So we were stacked.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
I mean, I think eight or nine of our guys
on defense, starting defense, all played in the NFL. It was,
and all great squad man and so a lot of
didn't want to call me lights out or you know
that in general.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
So I had to go out and earn it. So
how do you earn it?

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Make a play, make plays right, and so and you
know what I didn't appreciate is then as much as
I appreciate it now, because when you constantly got to
go out there and earn it, it's none of given
to you, so you kind of appreciate it later on
during life. It's like that, you know that teacher that
you have in high school, they're like, why they always

(19:28):
on my you know, and then when you get older,
you're like, I appreciate that because you know, we had
some motor guys in that locker room that was was
gonna let me walk in like that, and I had
to earn it.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
They you can't let you think the freshman don't stink
here anything, and then you get conplaced with it.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Well, i'll tell you the trust me. I didn't help myself, right.
You know.

Speaker 4 (19:47):
We had the freshman orientations where all the freshmen came
in and we're a.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Team meeting room and uh all and this is crazy.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
So but this is where my mind was then, Probably
why I didn't start to my junior year, because I
came in for you know, I came in one one.
We had a freshman orientation in the team meeting room
and all the freshmen to stand up and where you're from?

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Who are you? All the intro.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
And everybody went up to quote Jackson and all these
you know, we had a running back out of this
world from Florida Josh Allam, who was all a sec
and right, And so it got to me and so
I basically said, Shawn Merriman from Prince George's County freshman
told my age, you know, I'm starting playing here three years.
I'm going to the NFL first round, just like that,

(20:36):
and that was it. And so you can hear the
air out of the room like who do you think
he is?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Right?

Speaker 4 (20:42):
But that that was I know at the time it
probably came across pretty arrogant. But I've always felt like
that about myself, you know, not because I thought I
was just better than anybody. It's just I was willing,
I work everybody, and my mentality was to be the
best at what I did. And so I think that
uh didn't go over well, especially when junior's the seniors

(21:04):
and you got j Henderson. They were looking at me
like who do you think he is?

Speaker 2 (21:07):
You know?

Speaker 4 (21:07):
And so at the time I think that a lot
of people didn't understand my mentality.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Crazy enough. You know, I talked.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
We all we still talk, you know, from college pros,
like all my teammates for the most part, we all
still talk. I think that everybody see it more so
now than they did then. On on the why I
had the mentality I.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Had obviously end up getting drafted to the Chargers.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, first round, And what did I say? I was
going my fresh Roe, So I was going first round.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
He called that.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Called that, And I got buddies who did something similar,
not to you're extent necessarily they didn't go first round,
but like they came in and were like, hey man,
this is what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
This is where I'm going. I'm gonna get drafted. I'm
gonna play in the NFL for seven years, ten years.
They called their shot. I don't really look at it,
you know, at the time, you do look it as
a little arrogant.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, but as you know, like when you're competing at
such a high level, you gotta to high.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
You gotta kind of have that to you.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
You kind of kind of have that like I love
the honey Badger, Okay, you gotta have that. I don't
really care what's in front of me. It doesn't matter, right,
I'm going to beat you. I'm going to you have
to have that elite mindset almost. But going into the
Chargers being a first round draft pick, what are the

(22:26):
expectations high for you going in? What was the stat
you know, did you have a welcome to the league
moment or how that all go?

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Starting us?

Speaker 4 (22:35):
It didn't go. It didn't go well because I didn't.
I didn't show up till a couple of weeks before
the first game. Oh, because we had some contract issue
stuff if injury clause. You know, back then the contracts
is different than it is now. And so I'm back
home in Maryland. I'm gonna phone my agent screaming, and
there's Minnie campus.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
I didn't show up to anything, your first round draft
on first round draft pick.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
And on top of that, I'm looking at you know,
in the medium, I'm saying, like my my soon to
be teammates talking some of not all just couldn't he yeah,
because you know, you're you're a rookie coming in first
round and you're not showing up to anything, and how
it was being portrayed as I didn't want to be there,
and that was just so far from the truth right

(23:21):
right right, and I wanted to be there, just my
agent was like, listen, they're not willing to do this
injury sign, this injury clause that if something happened to
you that they're going to still pay you, don't go.
And I got to the point where I've got getting
the shouting matches with my agent at the time, like, dude,
look at it. They're thinking, I'm you know, I don't
want to be there. Well, I think I'm better than
everybody else. It's like, no, man, I got to get
this out there. And at the point, I mean, if

(23:43):
we waited one more week, I went anyway, regardless of
what my agent thought. And you know, thank god I
listen to him because it was just an order of
protection for me. What's the business. It's business, But you
know you I was. I just turned twenty one. You
want to play ball, so you want to get out there.
You don't give you know about the business side of it.
You just want to go out and play, right. So

(24:04):
I finally get out there, and dude, let me tell
you something. The only running that I did was to
the mall before the store is closed. That's about it.
Only my I was lifting waist like, but I was.
I was so out of football shape. Was hard because
it wasn't I was. I was still going to the gym.
But you can't emmilate football, No you can't. It's not
the same. Yeah, so you can go out there. I
ran my sprints, I did all, but I wasn't doing

(24:26):
enough football work, you know. So it was less less
learned by me for sure. But I got out there, man,
I was pretty pissed off, you know where. I was like,
somebody here gonna fly teammate or not because I, you know,
kind of sitting back for all these all this whole
time and I'm watching people just talk.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Pent up stost Oh God to the fullest? Yeah, and
then how did you release it?

Speaker 1 (24:50):
We?

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Uh? I released it on Lorenzo Neil dude. Actually the
first that's the brother.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
I have two things that you told me to ask
you was the brother.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, my first my first padded practice when I got there,
and it's it's really it's fanda. It's three to four
thousand people out there practice, little crowd, first time, and
you know, I got out this first time. I need
the fans, my teammates, anybody seeing me. And I get
out there. I'm to seventy five or two seventy three,
and I played around two sixty three to sixty four.
But I was definitely like ten pounds overweight off, not

(25:26):
a shred of fat on me nowhere, but I couldn't
move with the damn. I was like a robot. But
anyway I was. I was really pissed off. So I said, look,
the first time I hit anybody, everybody talked gonna see quick.
And I was so pissed off because I actually wanted
to be out there, but it was just a business
side of it where I couldn't. And so one on
one drills with low kneel. But uh, And I didn't know,

(25:49):
being a young dump rookie, hot headed going out there,
that I wanted to hint anybody that that was in
front of me.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
I didn't even And it was it just happened.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
To be old lateness career at this point, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Low was I think it's eleventh, eleventh or twelfth year, eleventh,
twelfth year, Lorenzo Neil, you know what I'm saying, and
lorenz O Neil, and and so I didn't at that time.
I didn't care who it was. And I did I
ran right through loneil and want the first play and
it was bad.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
And this is one on ones the same tempo.

Speaker 4 (26:24):
No, because the drill actually for us for me to
make a pass rushing move and go around there's a
past pro block and man, I'm boom blow him up
and stepped over like just it was bad. Crowd. Oh,
it's probably one of the worst decisions I made, you know,
it was it was. It was definitely one of the
worst ones because I went back up, you know, a

(26:47):
couple couple of rounds after. It was another running back
off there at the time, but it wasn't O'Neil, and
O'Neill came to the front and moved him out the
way back and I was like, you're going you want
some more Big mistake, bro, big mistake. You see that

(27:07):
wall back there. It felt like I ran right into
dead And I tell people now, I said, you know,
I'm normally always on the on the giving end to
all of it, right, And it was the first time
when somebody actually did something mean when I was like felt,
and then after that it was like, okay, all right,
we got to figure this thing out going forward. We
can't be doing accident somebody not making it to the

(27:28):
game period. And that's when the whole brother in law thing.
Captain what what what a loaded loaded?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Because he just.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Said he just said he text I texted him when
I was get off the plane. I was like, what's Sean?
He was like, I'll get into the next one. But
he brought up the brother and the law thing. And
you know, I've heard the story a little bit here
and again, but basically like and I listen, I've also
been there where where it's like, hey, you you're gonna
do your job on film because everything's the eye in
the sky, right, so you're going to fill your gap.

(27:56):
I'm gonna do my jobs. No one's getting that for
either low thing or anything like that. We know that
in a real game situation. Oh yeah, it's it's collision,
it's boomstick City. But for the time being, you fit
me up, I fit you up.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
We'll stop, you know a little.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Bit before ahead of time, and uh, I get it man,
And and I mean two specimens like yourself, like you
have to you guys would have.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Just yeah and and you know what not a coach
said nothing about it.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Either, not a we'll go we'll go full speed.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
And let up probably by one one feet apart and
just my I'm supposed to be here.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
You put okay, good head.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
We go back to the huddle because at that at
that pace, we're both the mentality mentality we had somebody
just wasn't gonna make it to the game healthy.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
And but yeah, that that was it. Man.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
You know, I'll tell anybody now and you gotta think
loads and this eleventh fourth year, so for him to
still do that, what did he feel like six years before?

Speaker 2 (28:58):
I was gonna say, you know, it's you know, you
think about it.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
You know it Actually, you know, really appreciate Low because
he took me to start working out with him after practice,
like we'll get we'll get all lift in matter whatever
mandatory lift lifts are. And mind you you know Low's
is eleventh to twelfth year. We'll go to the we'll
go to the weight roam after and we'll go do
some bodybuilding.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Right. We do what we call it walking the rack.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
We started at the one hundred and twenty pounds for
to show the strugs all the way down to like
sixties our is on fire or shoulder press. It started
as eighties, go out, work down to forties, like smoke
it up, right, But I learned how to, you know,
in the sense, take care of my body, work out
and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
And Low Neil Low was a big part of that.
What was the second part of Rookie? That was dough?

Speaker 3 (29:49):
That was I've heard Rookie stormes. This one was stuff though.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, this was the most he not him, but I
think because I came in the way I came in right,
you know, big atta, big persona talking, you know whatever.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
They're gonna get back, and they did.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
We went to a restaurant del Mar called Papamo's Grill,
and I think the rule was if you're four years
or higher, you're four years or higher, you got to
take all of that's out, but you got to be
four years in. And so I don't know, it's forty
forty guys. I mean, I don't know how it's the
total count, but it was around there. So I took
the team out. And mind you, I'm twenty one, dude.

(30:29):
I don't know about champagnes and wines and all that.
I have no idea. And we had a couple of bottles,
you know, o'd Neil Jamal Williams are due tackle at
the time, Antonio Gates, We're sitting around and we owe
this a couple of bottles that I now know as
Louis to thirteen. So so I don't, you know, I
don't know about it. You know, I'm thinking I've been

(30:49):
to the club a couple of times and some you know,
I've been a club's one.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Pay pay for this, ain't henny though, pay for bottles.
You know.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
You get a bottle of tequila. It's a grand, you know,
and that's at the club, which is a lot. Yeah,
So I'm thinking, like, okay, one of these bottles in
the restaurant got to be about five hundred, right, something
crazy like five hundreds a lot, of course. So we
had three of these things, right, we had three louise
three bottles of Louise right at a restaurant, at a restaurant. Now,

(31:17):
I don't know what they are now they got to
be able to seven k now in the restaurant, maybe
a ten grand, But at the time I think there
were like four time. This is twenty years ago, so
four grand twenty years ago was probably about ten k now,
of course. So we're sitting there, I'm just having a
good time, and you know, Drew Brees ordered these bottles
of wine. So again, the only thing I'm used to

(31:38):
bony is Costco grocery store, you know, express bottle of wine,
und like whatever, these bottles are gonna be in a thousand.
He got two of these in his hand, right, he
got two of these bottles. The one of me took home.
I was gonna say when he took home. So anyway,
you know, I'm look. I think the most expensive thing
I bought at any time. I bought a house townhouse

(31:59):
back in back in Maryland, and I bought a tea wagon, right,
so those my two biggest purchases something like that at
the time. And I bought a house in San Diego.
So these, I know are going to be expensive house
and the cars. But you know, I'm not thinking that
this level of expenses to restaurants. So uh, anyway, I'm

(32:20):
kind of drunk. I'm down, they're drunk. We're sitting there
having a good time. And now now I'm starting to
feel accepted finally, you know, by the team and never
have a fun you know, Antonio Gates is dead low.
Neil like, well, the boys, we can get better than this, right,
you got all your all, your all your the big
homies in there.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
So we get we're closing up.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
One of the the owner came and UH said, hey, Seawan,
I need to see you in the back. Say for what,
give me the check man, so I can go on
and get the get out of here.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
We can leave, right.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
You said that like he's a school principal, like, hey,
can you come to the.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
Office right right right? So it's not registering at the time.
Why he's asking me, asking me to come to the back.
So said made man, just bring me the check ahead
and knocked that out. Get out of here. And so
he said, no, man, I really I need to see
you in the back. I said, okay, ship. And you
know you drink, You drink enough. You don't feel until
you stand up. When I stood up, I was like, oh,

(33:20):
come look a little bit. We go back there by
the kitchen and I remember, you know, him handing me
the check and unfolded like a grocery store receat and
it dropped down. Dude, I'm six, you know, I'm almost
sixty five, asked my knees. Right wow, And so I'm
looking at it and I go all the way down
to the to the bottom of this damn thing.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
And I look on it.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
It's like thirty two thousand, one hundred and something dollars
changed whatever. Looking at it, it's in mind you I've
been drinking a little bit, so I'm thinking.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
I'm like, it's not that bad as three thousand.

Speaker 4 (33:52):
You know, it's not registering that I missed the damn
decidet I missed a comma, right, So I look at it.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
I can't say no, look at it.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
And I'm looking at it and I was like, thirty
two thousand and my knees, I'm.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I put I late.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
I sat back on the wall, and I'm like, so, uh,
I'm now I'm thinking about what to do, right, So
the bill was so what to do?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
You know?

Speaker 2 (34:16):
I mean, you can't dine and dash.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
But I'm looking at the bill and it's like a
little bit that that I'm making a big deal about it.
I'm trying to get whatever I can take it off.
I've got an argument about asparagus. What I was like,
I don't even for the asparagust Dude, like, come on,
take off it, right. So I'll ended up getting like
eight hundred dollars off the bill. There was still like
thirty two K around there. So anyway, I had my

(34:38):
my black card at the time, and so you know,
typically when you have.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Big charges, they call you, yeah, yeah, hey, is this legit? Hey?
Is this legit? So did?

Speaker 4 (34:49):
I never wish for my decline so bad? I would
see that praying on it. I was praying, hey, yo, boys,
you got everyone's got chip.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Hey.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
I was trying to figure it out. Of course, you know,
had that. I sober it up quick. I sold it
up quick as hell, right, And so I'm looking on
them like They're gonna call me in a minute, and
I'm gonna tell them, hey, I need to look I
need to review these charges and I get back to
y'all later or whatever, you know, trying to figure something out.
Get a couple of guys throwing four or five K,
try to eat up some of the bill bro that

(35:19):
went through.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
They never called me.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
That's why I used the black card.

Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, but I should have used it. I should have
used something that had a limit on it, right. I
was pissed. I was like the ones I do, I
would be traveling somewhere out of the country or all
be in a different state. You know, sometime I'm back
in Maryland. Sometime I'm in you know, Miami, or I'm in
La I'm in San Diego. And if you travel too much,
it'll decline you just because you're just traveling too much
to have you call in. So I'm guessing like they're

(35:44):
for sure, They're for SURENNA call me. It's thirty two thousand,
they're going to call me. Yeah, never call me. They
never called me. And so when they went through and
they brought me to check in the Pentason, I almost
passed out sick.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
I was sick to my stomach. Jack hell no, hell no.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
I wanted when it set the reckoning in my life.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
But I tell you, I tell you what what did happen.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
LT kind of stood up and made a made a
speech that you know, of how much they were gonna
need me that that year and and and all this stuff.
So it did ease a pain a little bit, but
not as much thirty two thousand worth.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
I mean, I was, but I don't think.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
I don't think I've had a full conversation with nobody
on the team for a week.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
I was sick, you know, I was sick.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
If you want, if you were in a good load,
Nail story. I dude, we got we got so we
got a thousand of them. One of the rookie done.
I think it was a year after two years after.
We were eating downtown and me and O'Neill was like,
that's my brother man. So we would go out each
other all the time, but this time we were going

(36:49):
after to see who can drink how much? And so
we had a bottle I think, I don't know what
it was, a bottle of something to guilo or vodka
was something, but me and O'Neill was like going shot
for shot to the bottle was gone, the whole thing,
and I mean it's you know, this is why the

(37:10):
brother in law exists, because somebody wasn't gonna make it
to the game and we weren't gonna stop drinking. So
ma just is a big This is a massive bottle
of tequilo vodka the handle, and so we go back
and forth, back and forth, back and forth. We got
to be about fifteen shots a piece, nobody, and so
you know about the sixth or seventh shot, you know

(37:32):
you start getting a little warm, like all right, by
that tenth shot, your tongue started to get a little heavy, right,
So I'm looking at him. I'm like he got it,
Like he got to stop. At some point he got
to Bro, were like fifteen or sixteen or seventeen shots deep, apiece,
These are real shots.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
These are four shots.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
And then we then we started to play around the
wrestle at that point right and not still to this day,
I don't know if I stopped. I think he stopped first.
I remember calling because I couldn't drive on I had
one of my boys to take me to a hotel
down downtown. I said, no, nobody's getting behind the wheel.

(38:11):
No nobody which, nobody's driving. Yeah, And I remember calling
him the next day, I think, and you gotta if
I remember the story correctly, I think I think o'd
neill slept outside of his house on the lawn. I
think O'Neill slept outside of his house on the lawn.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Bro.

Speaker 4 (38:31):
And when I stayed downtown at the hotel, I went
to the hotel, I took the TV off of the dresser.
I don't remember I took the TV off of the dresser.
I took the blankets off of the bed, and I
slept on top of the dresser. I swear I like
it was bad.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
It was bad.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
It was now it was bad. It was bad. But
see that's why we had the brother in law because
we we stopped. We nobody was gonna stop on the field.
Off the field was it wasn't gonna stop. But no,
if it feels gonna happen with anybody in this world,
I was glad it happened with him.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
That's a great story with the boys.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
You got you gotta you gotta ask Low if I'm
if I'm mistake, but I'm ninety five percent show he
slept outside. I'm gonna take this, so I'm ninety five
percent Shore. He slept outside on the lawn.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
You're talking names like LT and Low and stuff like
in your NFL career, who is the hardest dude to tackle?

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Playing against any WHOA I.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Know you were going against LT?

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Well, yeah, well LT almost got at home one time
my freaking year. We uh not him purposely, but it
was me and something I did right. We used to
have this, uh, we used to have this drill where
you get four or five hundred bucks you can make
somebody fumble in practice. Martin Shottenham has had this thing,
like you swiped the ball, you get a few hundred

(39:49):
bucks and so you know, I think I made one
or two people. I already got a grand, right, I
mean I already made like a grand that day for
swiping at the ball making some money fumble. And so
in practice, you know, LT is going and so I
I go, and I go and swatting tomahawk, swatt at

(40:09):
the ball and I take L t to the ground,
fully to the ground, like blasted, like like Jay's supposed
to be.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Doing now with L.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
It's not live, it's not live.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
But I swatted at the ball hard enough where I
took L to the ground.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
And when I could, when I tell you can hear
pin drop, I mean you heard, people.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
It was one of those I knew I messed up bad, and.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
I came over and I'm, you know, kind of you know, uh,
you know, it's a kid. You do and you're getting
scared at, but nobody say nothing to you. And I'm like, okay,
I don't know what I did, but I know it
was bad. I know it's bad. I get on the sidelines.
Nobody still say anything to me about what I just did.
So we get right after practice, the coaches brought me

(40:56):
in a room and they said, look, we love how
you play. That's why we brought you here. But they
don't never hit LT again like that ever. They basically
like he's the reason. I mean in the sense while
we got jobs and that was my that was my Like, okay,
you in the NFL.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
This is a different ball game. You in an NFL. Now,
he can't do that.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
It's ain't Maryland scout team.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
No, and you know what to Tales credit. LT never
complained else, didn't complain at all about it. Ain't say
anything but the coaches. I mean, you know, I I
thought that I was going to be the first first
round draft pick ever that sent home. You know, I
was like, I'm ready to pack my cause it was
it got I mean it was dark in that room,
you know when they circled me up, and it was like,

(41:44):
you know this is LT. You know watch it. But
but yeah, Tales credit, he never he never complained.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Ween And again I want to start kind of transitioning
into a few things, you know, with your lights out
as your career continued, I know you ended up going
to Buffalo.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
For the little bit.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, at what point did you say like, hey, it's
it's time to hang it up. And did you know
before you did, like, did you have a vision for
lights out?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah? We was, uh at a buddy of mine.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
In mind, I've been called lights out since I was
sixteen years old, right, it's natural. I mean most most
people outside of my family and a couple of childhood
friends caught me, Sewan, everybody else.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Caught me lights Okay, I'll start calling you lights Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Most people come in Yeah, no, no, most most people
even now, most people still call me lights And I've
gone by that name since I was sixteen. So I
was with a buddy of mine in San Diego and
uh he was he was an attorney, okay, uh, And
so we were at a We were at a bar.
I think it was like, uh between two thousand and

(42:47):
five and two thousand and six. And we have have
catching up having some drinks. I haven't seen it for
a while. His name is Greg Wiseman. And you know,
we had a I was a couple back, you know,
just having just chilling or whatever. And I said, dude,
I said, man, I want to I want to own
lights out, you know, like who owns lights out? You
know I've been called lights out since I was sixteen
years old. You know, I want to do this, What

(43:08):
did I want to do that with it? I didn't
know exactly what I wanted to do, but I had
a bunch of ideas and what I wanted to do.
Mind I just turned twenty two. He puts his drink
down and he said, Sean, do you know what I
do for a living? I said, yeah, You're an attorney,
you know, But at that time, I don't know what
type of attorney.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
He's just an attorney, he said, I'm a trademark ip
and patent attorney.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
So he's you got your guy right there.

Speaker 4 (43:32):
So my boy is actually a trademark attorney. And at
the time I didn't know fully what trademarks were. I
didn't know how to name to it because I'm still
understanding what that is. We explained to me what a
trademark is. So I said, how can we get it?
You know, I want to I want to own it,
and I got all these things I want to do
with it. I don't know right now what I want

(43:53):
to do, what I want to do something with it
at some point. So he he said, all right, let
me give me, he said, give me a weaker old
let me track it down. Who owns it and let
me see if I can help you get it. So
he finally locates the company that had it. It was a
company in Irvine called PJ. Savage. It was a pajama company. Oh,

(44:14):
but it was a company that owned them called Loomberg's
their parent a parent company which was a big, big.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Big company. And so I said, okay, So I said,
what do we do?

Speaker 4 (44:25):
He said, they're probably gonna want some money for it,
you know, So I said it not yet, not yet.
And so he reaches out to him and at first
they told him no, they're not selling it. You know,
they're selling pajamas in certain retail stores and no, I said, uh.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
He called me back.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
A couple of these ladies says, it's it okay to
I tell them who's trying to buy it? So, yeah,
you know, if that'll help, yeah, sure, So he did,
and then they were open to it. And they asked
for a ridiculous amount of money, and I was like, no,
I'm not spending that. I said, you know, counter, what's
you know, the different offer. See if we can get
them to at least bite or play ball.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
And they did.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
And so they we went back and forth about a
week and a half and finally they gave in and said, listen,
we'll sell.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
It to him.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
But he got us we got to do this in
twenty four hours, and he got to send us the
money in twenty four hours.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
That's kind of unorthodox, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
It was, no, it was it was uh, I think
that well.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
There was a lot of nasty back and forth a
little bit too, you know, it's always always that side
of the business. But we we came to an agreement
and I ended up end up buying it within two weeks.
All the trademarks for lights Out, and you know, I've
had lights Out the trademarks and three and here in
the US in four different countries for the last you know,

(45:51):
twenty four years.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
And then so when you were done with playing Buffalo,
you were like, Okay, what are we gonna do with this?

Speaker 4 (45:57):
Yeah, So I always wanted to get an apparel industry.
And you know, funny in college, you know, I've always
had this, you know, kind of entrepreneurial spirit. It's always
been there guys in college to tell you, so, I
don't know if you remember when fifty Cents came out
with his first gene unit tank tops, a long time ago,
and I took I took those blank g on the

(46:18):
tank tops and I started putting the lights out light
switch on it with a hand with like but dazzle.
It was just it was ugly. It was ugliest. No, No,
they're going up there. I want to see that play.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
You know.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
It's a couple of guys whom I had in college.
You know, a couple of them laughed at being you know,
because I came in there always have my arms out
or you know, head shirt off.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Whatever.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
And so I started selling to a couple of teammates,
and you know, I started selling those tank tops with
the lights out on it, and they just bought it
out of support.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
You know whatever.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
It is ugliest, But it started then and I just
didn't know what I wanted to do. But I look
back on it when I got older, and especially now,
I already knew what I wanted to do.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I just didn't know quite how to do it. So anyway,
that started then.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
But then now I had the trademarks and stuff for
Lights Out, and I can go full on. So when
I retired, I got straight into the TV, went to
the NFL network. You know, I was doing some broadcasting then,
but then I started to do more in apparel space.
So one of the first big stores that I got in,
when I say big, it was non sports Fevers in
San Diego. Okay, it was like Sportsman and Billion shops,

(47:26):
but they sold T shirts. So I actually started selling
that towards the end of my career while I was
still playing. But now I understood the apparel space where
I knew where to get the manufacturing that whether it
was domestically or internationally, you know what countries had what.
And when I retired, I linked up and to my
mentors out in Harburn and Steven Jono, who were big

(47:50):
in the apparel of space, selling.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Cole's and J C. Pennies and Walmart.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
They used to own a brand called MMA Elite, one
of the first big apparel MMA brands in the world.
And these guys were doing massive numbers at Walmart. And
so when I retired, I actually moved into the office
deir office downtown and so all the officers here, Steven

(48:15):
Jones officers here, and my office was right there. So
I got a full crash course of licensing apparel space
which you should be paying how to ship three pls
back in warehousing.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Now I'm fully I'm fully in it.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
So when I get off, when I got off my
shows with NFL Network, I would go to my office
downtown and I was just sitting there and hear these
guys negotiate deals, what certain deals and licensing deals should
look like. So I started picking up the apparel industry.
And a couple of years after that, I got into Tilly's.
Oh so I was selling antillies for a while. And

(48:50):
this is the thing too, this is how I got
into Tilli's. A good friend of mine down in San Diego.
He's swing symbolic dealership. You know, Mark Chase. There was
a guy that I think it was buying a Bugatti
or or something. It was a crazy, crazy car and

(49:11):
if the car was at least half million to a
million bucks. And I remember just driving He's just driving off.
I don't even think he signed for you. And you know,
I said, do who? I wanted to know who the
hell was that that just brought a half a million
million dollar con just just drove off the lot And

(49:31):
he said, uh, oh, that's the Uh, that's the owner
of Tilli's. So I got up from the out of
Mark's office. I ran him down, ran him down in
his new car, in his new car before he pulled
off the lot. And uh so, so anyway we we yeah, yeah,

(49:53):
because I told him what I was doing with the
apparel space and I thought that Tilli's Lights would be
a good brand for Tillies and all this sudden stuff
and so, uh so, anyway we became we became really
good friends. And uh So, anyway I got into which
is which is crazy, because we got in the Tillies

(50:16):
and I wasn't again, I didn't know about a lot
on the peril space first. So his name was hes
he's him and him and is Hesy and his wife Tilly,
who started Tillies, and so we became really close friends.
And so at the time I was working with Bellator
mm A, doing some stuff with him and whatever, and

(50:38):
he loved m and MA and uh I took him
to a fight, you know, him and his guest and
was just just selled out of lights out the whole
time and how lights out to be good for them
and stuff. So at the end of the fight, you know,
I thought that he was going to say, all right,
you're in right.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
He ain't say that.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
He said, look, I see where you're going, but you're
not ready to be in our stores. And so this
is this is where I learned it. You know, people
just not get discouraged the first time around, because I
easily could have been mad or pissed off because he
said something to me that it really stuck with me.
He said, but when you're ready, you can have all

(51:19):
the stores when you're ready. And so instead of taking that,
you know, that criticism as something negative, you know, I
went back. I got with Stephen Jonah and a couple
of designers and stuff, and I started putting things together
that was going to sell antillies. And so we went
back like six months later. In my drob, my I mean,
my hopes just dropped at that time because I'm thinking, like, okay,

(51:40):
we're going to these fights with Bella. It was lined up.
He was gonna be excited about, you know, getting lights
out in the tillies, and it was a total opposite.
He was like, hey, you're not ready, just told me.
And I appreciated that more than anything, just because that
that made me step up my game.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
And was fuel. It was fuel d percent fuel.

Speaker 4 (51:58):
So went back to the design and as I got
into some smaller retail stores, started learning how to deliver
things and how to have stuff, how to back office work,
and you know three pl warehousing shipping, right, I really
really what warehouses did what and which manufacturers did what,
all over the country, all over the world. So I
got really good at it. Uh So I went back

(52:19):
to him six months. I met with the buyer there,
Mike at Tilli's and they sat down and say, hey,
you're back. I said, yeah, yeah, I'm back. You know, rise,
I'm back back was now? Uh And so anyway, I
got you know, ninety stores off the rim with Tillies.
That's huge, and you know, we did really well. And
then you know, obviously the pandemic and all the stuff

(52:41):
started to happen around this time. You know, Amazon really
picked up selling online, and online really picked up full line.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
So the model changed.

Speaker 4 (52:48):
But I think I got into a little over one
hundred tillies, you know, selling over one hundred tillies before
before things changed.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah, And then at what point did you say, all right,
we're gonna start We're gonna start incorporating like a legit
fight league into this whole thing that that was.

Speaker 4 (53:03):
You know, So when I was I was an ambassador
for Bellatour for a couple of years, and I've always
been around mixed martial arts, even when I was playing football.
I was training with Randy Guatour, and I was around
you know, Chuck Ladell, t the Rotis. These were all
like friends of mine who was around a lot. I

(53:24):
was around with Tyrone Woodley first can't start coming on
the scene. Training with him and Jay Glazer kind of
introduced me to really the sport. But I was going
to I've been going to UFC fights since two thousand
and five. Is Chuck Ladell and Randy Gatore two thousand
and five, I was there when I first walked in.
I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I didn't
know how I was going to do it, but I
knew I was. And so while I was working with Bellatour,

(53:48):
which is really the number two league behind the UFC
for years, I mean it was at one point, I
mean you can you can say that the Bellato has
something that they could have been.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
On the UFC level. At one point they were great.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
But I was in all those meetings with them, production meetings,
venue negotiate meetings, learning learning like for two years, and
so anyway, you know, being around it for so long
and understand how the business work, not just not already
new TV and production, how TV worked because I've been
in a TV business since I've been retired. You're piecing,

(54:21):
so now I'm piecing everything together. And I got really
good at it. And so not only did I know
the fighters now, I knew the managers, I knew the coaches,
I knew the gyms, I knew production, I knew TV.
I knew exactly who I wanted to hire and bring in.
I knew everything already ready to go. And so when
I launched Lightside Extreme Fighting, we wasn't operating like a
startup promotion because I've been doing it for so long.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
It wasn't like here's fright, won't and see how it goes?
Like you knew how it's supposed to happen.

Speaker 4 (54:45):
Yeah, and it and it and two it was I've
always been an advocate for people learning from other people mistakes.
You know, you know when you're when you're smart, you
can if you see something I work for somebody else
and they tell you like, hey, we just didn't work
for me. You don't do that, of course you know,
I thought that Bellatol could have been a lot bigger
than it was, and it was as they had great fights,

(55:06):
they had great a lot of great things, but they
had some holes that I thought that, like, you know what,
when I when I do mine, we're doing this immediately.
We're going to pass that up because there Bellatol could
have been a massive mass of organization and maybe not
bigger than the UFC, but it could have been up
there on that level.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Well, I mean, that's kudos to you though, too for
understanding that. And they put it into fruition because it's
it's hard. I mean, I like any business, right, you
don't want to have to one not only make a mistake,
but for people who don't own businesses, make a mistake.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Basically, did we lose a colad of money on it?

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Right?

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Right?

Speaker 3 (55:42):
We don't want to get in that hole.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
If you don't have to.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
Yeah, that was a That was the main thing. I
thought that, you know, they could have done a lot
more on the tech side. I thought they could have
done a lot more on the content side. They were
owned by Viacom, and I thought that there was a
lot of holes there that they could have been a
lot bigger than what they were. And I knew when
I started out that that was going to immediately start
attacking those areas that they were lacking. And it just
not even lacking that they just didn't make of importance.

(56:07):
And so that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Man.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
We you know, been kind of running running the show
with lights out exchange fighting for the past you know,
going on three almost, you know, three plus years.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
They've been running that on my own and the way
of the wave we've grown.

Speaker 4 (56:23):
Over the last really year and a half is unprecedent
for somebody that you know, the opportunities we have right
now in this space. But somebody's been around us is
short lived. If we've been has never been done in
this sport. And so you know there's there's some other
really good promotions out there too that's been around longer
than us.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
I just have a different angle in this in this business.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
I mean I again, this is saying from a spectator
who watches UFC interviews fighters. I think it's something for
sure that is already Like you said, it's in a
short time, like making noise do you have you know
you're in Vegas.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Yeah, UFC is in Vegas.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Do you compare yourself to I want to be the
next UFC?

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Similar to how like I don't know why my head's
going to golf right now with the Live PGA, or
are you more like, hey, I'm trying to be the
feeder into the US, Well, we don't.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I think.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
Look, I think it gonna be pretty dumb to go
out there and try to compare yourself to the UFC's
they're so there's so far because I understand how the
business work. I think a lot of people getting there
because of pride and ego of wanting to compete with them.
You know, there's other promotions that call themselves the co
leaders of it, which is not smart because there's ways

(57:40):
to be big without trying to be them, right, There's
so many ways to be successful, you know, so many
different verticals as you can do and not be the UFC.
In fact, I think the fans are looking for something
else because the UFC he is always going to be.
I mean, the UFC is the NFL of combat sports,
And then you have to ask.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Yourself, is there going to be anybody bigger than the NFL? Ever?
Probably not?

Speaker 4 (58:02):
No, I mean that's not saying that like, oh, you
can't do it, because I hate when people say you
can't do something, but you're gonna spend a lifetime trying
to do it, and you won't have the resources and
you won't have the UFC is. They're so well organized.
It's like a well oiled machine that's never gonna stop, right.
The UFC is never gonna stop growing. The UFC is

(58:24):
never gonna plateau because there's gonna be different verticals, they're
gonna be different streaming platforms, They're gonna be different things
that come around. Who the hell knew that the Netflix
would even be in the live sports business ten years ago.
You'll never guess.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
That Netflix was even around fifteen years ago.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
That's what I'm saying blockluster, right, And so you know
there's gonna be a new social media platform that the
UFC is gonna take advantage of their partnership with Threads
and Meta.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
They're never gonna stop right, Yes.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
But it took time. It's not like it happened overnight
like it'ah become more popular in the last five years.
Did you see Dana White from twenty five years ago?

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Because you know, and then the reason why to give
them more credit because when they first started, there was
no social media, like right, you know how hard it
is to build something where you it's almost like you know,
rappers and entertainment and artists selling cassettes out there trunk.
You know, they didn't have SoundCloud, they didn't have Apple YouTube.

(59:19):
You know there's people that's coming overnight viral success. And
so you know, when the UFC first started, and even
up until the mid to late two thousands, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
There was nothing.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
They were just hardcore promotion, hardcore fights and built it
on on organic arms. And when social media came into
playing all these other digital platforms, they went to the moon.
And that's what really helped him. And Dana is smart
because Dana gets he's not old school thinking. Most most people,
when you get that successful, they stick to the old

(59:52):
But you know, Dana has figured it out. We have
the Milk Boys, you know, theo Von and all these
guys busting the boys. You know, my boys over there
busting the boys. Dana figured it out, and he keeps
pushing the envelope. And even you know when I'm most
impressed because people asking all the time, they know we
got a you know kind of relationship and what I'm

(01:00:13):
just most impressed with with Dana. The most that I
that I learned for is it never stops working.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
He never. I mean, you know, he will, That's all
I hear. It's insane.

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):
He would, you know, I'll go, I'll go see him
in his office and he may be over there. It's
just hardcore pitch meeting still and you would think that
somebody's over there she's achieved that level of success.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
They're not.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
They're not rolling up their sleeve. Still he is, you know,
And so that more I don't I don't ask him
for anything. We talk, and you know when we do,
most of the time that about mm A, maybe other
business stuff, but not mm A, but just the willingness
to keep pushing the envelope after you get that level

(01:00:57):
of success. I think that that, to me, is the
most impressed about anything.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Well, you've done a really good job to leaning into
that social media presence, and like we talked about, like
you know, this interview today, like you know we're gonna
have we have a viral. We had noise you know,
up and down California. We got viewers and followers all
over the country. Like the compound effect, Like we talked
about earlier. It's something that you have really mastered. And
I think on socials, not comparing you to like a

(01:01:24):
bellator necessarily, but I don't see Belaton on socials, right,
I see lifeyt on socials constantly, like constantly and constantly
and constantly UFC, like you said, they're gonna have NFL commercials,
They're gonna have UFC promotions on your ig ads and whatnot.
But you do you know, you kind of have this
signature where you see a viral clip and you do
the glasses say sign them up? Right, First of all,

(01:01:45):
great marketing, it gets well listen, talk about socials, right, Yeah,
you want sharable moments hanging around all over people's phones.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
You want people taking it and this is what they're looking.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
At, right, Yeah, how often when those viral moments happen?

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Do you have you ever actually brought someone in to fight?

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
You know? What's crazy about the sign them up videos?

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
It so when they when they when they started really
getting out there that you know, I was in the
M M A space, I was running my own organization
with lights out of the straining fighting.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
I would start to have you know, fighters in my
d ms.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
You know, trying, you know, wanted to come fight with
lights out of string fighting, and you know, I'll say, hey,
if I didn't know them, I'll send them over tomorrow
our matchmaker and have them check them out, look at
this record on tapology and just look at who they are.
Sometimes I'll say, hey, what do you got you guys?
Who'd you fight for last? And so we we would
have I would have fighters to send me videos of

(01:02:41):
you know, whatever, their last fight, who were their last
promotion they fought for. And some of these guys be good,
I can really go and then some of them, like
I've had guys that send me videos of them getting
knocked out. And so I said, did you send us
by mistake? Or I said which one of you? He said,
oh man, you know this fight didn't go that well

(01:03:02):
for me. And I said, why would you send me
a video of you getting knocked out? I said, I'm
sure you got something else. I said, all the things
you could have sent me, you sent me that. And
that happened more than a few times. And so after
like the second or third time, I said, hold on,
because it'd be guys that I would look at and say,
you know what, I can sign them up. Well, I

(01:03:23):
can't sign them up. And I said, no, there's something here.
I was sitting around the house one day, and you know,
I'm anything fighting, dude. There could be two roaches outside fighting.
I'll sit there and look at that. Anything's involved in
fighting I'm looking at Yeah. You know, they get they
get ridiculous. He gotta have fun with this. So the
first one I sent out, it was a regular fight

(01:03:45):
one because because when when the fighter sent me in
the video and I'll tell you how the glasses and
all came about. I did have all my glasses and
sometime you're out in the sun, you got shades on it,
you can't see the screen. And so I saw it
and the fighter was getting knocked out. So I took
my glasses off, and I was like, you know, this
guy got knocked out. Why would you send you know,

(01:04:05):
why would you send me this? But I took my
glasses off, and I'll put him back on and it's
somebody else me and I'll take my glasses off again
and look at it. Because I couldn't see the streen
in the sun. I said, hold on, I said, hold on,
we got we got well, I got something for this.
So The first one I did probably like over a year,
almost two years ago, maybe a close to It got

(01:04:26):
two hundred and fifty thousand views, right, yeah, it got big.
And I said, there's the most views I've ever gotten
on social media. I think at the time maybe half
a million.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
It was big.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
It was maybe half a million views. So I said,
hold on something. And then I did a couple more
sign him up. And I said, now I'm gonna show
somebody getting knocked out, and I'm gonna say, don't sign
him up because of these dms I was getting from fighters.
So I did, they don't sign him up because the
guy got knocked out. And it got like a million plus.
So I said, okay, here we go. You know this,

(01:04:56):
this thing gotta happen. And that became a thing. It was,
you know, on the marketing aspects of it. But I
think that everybody too. I don't talk about politics a
lot on social media, religion and any of any of
the serious and not because not because it's not important
to me. It's just that, you know, I think that
those places with social media is a target for people

(01:05:19):
to talk who can't back it up, right, So and
and and I stay at least on social media. I
stay from politics or anything serious because people canna say
whatever they want with no validity to it at all.
So I just stay I just stay away from it.
And plus, I wanted a place where everybody's talking so
much about politics and so much hate, so much anger,
so much this. I wanted something that somebody can come

(01:05:40):
and look at and like, damn this, this kind of
made me laugh. You know, this is pretty pretty damn funny,
you know. And so that that is how the whole
sign up and don't sign them up thing happened.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
I see everyone else, you know, you talk about like
Jake Paul doing fights and all the Mayweather coming out
of retirement and whatnot. UFC is gonna go do the
lawn at the White House and whatnot. It's just off
the dome here knowing you and being a physical specimen,
and I see you still training and low being a wrestler.

(01:06:12):
Would you guys do a little charity.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
One one thing? No, No, I came out here.

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:18):
I couldn't fight anybody that's a friend of mine because
I don't charity or not. I'm not getting in there
to get some money for charity. I'm in it to
harm you. You know, have you considered fighting in your
own life? Yeah, yeah, of course. I've sent out contracts
and forming your w W guys. I've sent out contracts
to you know problem in the last two years, maybe
about five or six contracts. Again nobody responds or or

(01:06:42):
what you know what I mean, Like it's for me,
to be quite honest, I love promoting these other guys
I have.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
I have more. I don't call it fun. I get
a better thrill out of.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
Seeing these other guys because I have a bigger platform
and most people just fighting for lights out of string fighting.
So when I see these guys come in, men and women,
and they fight for us, they have a couple of fights,
they blow up, they go off to the UFC, and
I'm like, I feel like I'm a part of that.
In the last two months, we you know, I've had
John Paul This fought I think on Danny White Contended series,
Chris Alvidres just want just want uh for In the

(01:07:25):
Daniel White Contended series, Santiago Lona fought in the UFC,
he got caught up, he just won. These all guys
that fought for lights out of dream fighting and I
enjoyed that part of it because I the real, the
real work behind all behind the scenes. It's not getting
it from the camera. And you know, like you know promoting,
I'll promote in radio stations, TV podcast, whatever I gotta do,

(01:07:48):
but I'm not getting in the the middle of the
fighting and being the guy, right, that's not.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
It's not serving those guys. Well.

Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
Now, if I do all the work behind the scenes,
work out more distribution, get more sponsors, do more things
we can pay them some more money or get more
eyeballs and what we're doing, then I'm benefiting everybody, including
what we're trying to build. So I liked that role.
But I'm totally not against you know, a guy that's
they got some fighting background that people want to see.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
And then you know a lot of people you can.

Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Talk about Jake Paul and talk about whatever, but he
opened the doors for a lot of this stuff to
have act. I was around him when he first very
first started with Jake Paul and this one Shane Mosley
was training and Shane Mosley had called me one day
and they were training up a big bear and I've

(01:08:40):
been playing on going up there training with him for
years and I just I just never really made it up.
And it was one week that I was pretty free
and Shane called me and he said, hey, you know,
I got this young kid, a YouTuber named Jake Paul.
And I was like, okay, I just he's just fought
another YouTuber or something like that, like some months before.
It was not too long before that, and I was like, oh,

(01:09:00):
Cassie the kid. And then you know, my son, my
son loved him already because he's you know, you my son. Yeah,
so I think I know who he is. Whatever he said,
I think this kid is gonna be good. Man, you
might you want to come up and just train for
a couple of days, stay for a week or whatever.
I said, sure, So I drove up from LA to
Big Bear. I stayed with it at shane Mosley house
almost a week, and I saw Jake training for the

(01:09:24):
first time. I said, yeah, I said, he's he's gonna
be He's gonna be something. And you know, they were
up there running hills and stuff like that, and so,
you know, I've been arounding professional athletes my whole life, right,
so I can tell when somebody got it or they
know and not just of their skill.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
But what they're willing to do to work.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
And this dude was digging, he was working, he was consistent,
he was grinding out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
They had a boxing ring set up in Shane Moseley's
garage where he was sparring of the boxers, you know,
amateurs who had fights and pros who had fights, and
he was getting kicked sometime, kept coming back, and so
I knew right then and there that Jake was going
to I didn't know how big he was going to
be or how good, because you don't know how far

(01:10:09):
somebody's willing to work to take it. But the credit
to him, regardless of what you feel about him personally
or what he's doing personally, he's taking into new heights