June 8, 2023 • 39 mins
Chief Cultural Consultant, Speaker, Facilitator, Researcher
Her current work is focused on researching the impact of organizationa culture on DEI initiatives. She uses her qualitatiave research skills to examine cultures and align relevant DEI plans that improve stated goals and outcomes. In addition to this research, Hall-Russell coaches executive leaders on implementing DEI intiatives.
Her current work is focused on researching the impact of organizationa culture on DEI initiatives. She uses her qualitatiave research skills to examine cultures and align relevant DEI plans that improve stated goals and outcomes. In addition to this research, Hall-Russell coaches executive leaders on implementing DEI intiatives.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
And welcome. This is the CEOsYou Should Know podcast. I'm your host,
Johnny Hartwell, let's say hello todoctor Cheryl Hall Russell, a BW
three Black Women Wise Women. Thankyou for joining me, thank you for
having me. I'm glad to behere. All right, So telling us
everything we need to know about yourorganization. Black Women Wise Women are BW
three, which is a lot easierto say, is a diversity, equity
(00:27):
and Inclusion research firm? What isthat? And so we have organizations that
call us and say we're struggling toget the correct amount of diversity. We
know we're going to be more innovativeif we bring in people up different backgrounds,
and so they talk to me aboutit, and then I say,
don't do it. What do youmean, don't do it now? Because
(00:50):
if you've had an out organization,you've been open forty five years, it
has not been diverse. Doing ittomorrow is probably going to be a failure.
So I come in as a researcherand I do surveys, I assess
the organization. I figure out yourorganizational culture before you take something like that
on, we do some training,we put a plan together. So what
(01:11):
we don't want to do is bringpeople into our beautiful city in this region
and then have them leave a yearand a half later because it just didn't
more counted. So you ease theminto a way that it's going to be
successful. Absolutely, I prepare thatorganization. I work with them to prepare
themselves for the changes that they wantto see. People can be super sincere
about this kind of work and theythink, you know, and they look
(01:33):
at the diversity side, we wantto have hired six more black people.
We want to you know, wedon't have enough gay folks, and they
get really numbers oriented. I wantyou to keep them. I want the
experiences for these people that come intoyour organization to be a good one.
So what's the history behind BW three. So for twenty odd years, and
it's hard to believe it went onthis long. I was a CEO for
(01:59):
a nonprofit CEO and so our generationnonprofit leader, a mother, my grandmother,
and there were a constant theme throughoutmy leadership was having to deal with
issues of race and gender. Soand it got pretty acute when I came
to Pittsburgh in particular, and soI wanted to better understand that journey and
(02:22):
why it was so difficult for leaderslike me. And so during my last
leadership position, I went back toPoint Park University to get my doctorate and
leadership, and I looked at whatit's called intersectional leadership, Right, people
who look like me, people whoare underrepresented in leadership, what's their journey
(02:45):
like, what are takeaways those peoplehave really been successful? What have they
had to do? And what typesof organizations were really successful and you know,
really promoting and having people like melead. And so I did there
for three and a half years whileI was a CEO, and when I
got done, I launched BW three. And what was your philosophy? What
(03:07):
was the goal of the company?The business? You know, there was
a part of me that wanted toreally I saw the sincerity and companies who
really did want to do this,right, who really did really couldn't understand
why they could not attract and retainunderrepresented groups, be they women, be
they black folks, be they gayfolk. And this is the whole variety
(03:30):
of us out here who want leadershipopportunities. And I knew they wanted to
do this, but they were reallystruggling to do this in a systemic way
that would last. And so Ididn't want to come in and go,
hey, I'm going to do abiased train and or I'm going to do
it, because I honestly don't believethat works. My research says it does
not work. And so I builtrelationships. I you know, I become
(03:54):
very close. I'm coaching CEOs,I am you know, and really getting
to know organizations so I better understandand I'm better able to assess the chances
they're going to successfully do what theywant to do. Every CEO I interview
CEOs every week, and they're they'rethey're they're always different, and they have
(04:14):
different philosophies, and the companies aredifferent. And I'm sure you look at
that I do. And so there'sno cookie cutter solution to especially when you're
talking about trying to enhance diversity ina company. So what is You're a
researcher, So what is some ofthe research. What is some of the
research that you find that helps youand helps companies achieve those goals? You
(04:39):
know, just flat on paper andresearch will say more diverse organizations and more
inclusive organizations. Diversity is easy.That's that's going there. And you're hiring
people who look different, keeping them, including them, including their voices,
creating a place where they feel likethey belong is a heck of a lot
different. So there's more work there. And when you talk about CEOs in
(05:00):
particular, I find, especially withthe coaching, they know their businesses right.
They they got the mission down,They've got all this other stuff if
they're doing with just they know howmany they need to produce. When they
get into this area of dorace toequity and inclusion, they however, often
don't feel as comfortable. They wantto do right, but they don't have
(05:20):
the confidence in doing it. Andso one of my jobs is as an
equity coach. And so I comein, you have this plan you want
to put out there. I willcoach you through that plan. I help.
I've got you know, I've gotto do this presentation, I don't
feel great about it, and Iwill go in and coach you. I've
(05:43):
had people call me you right beforethey go in front of a big company
meeting to say, Okay, thisis what I'm gonna say this, this
makes us to you, and Ido that. Sometimes it's more just kind
of a I'm a retainer who aresome some large corporations and they just call
me when things come up. We'vegone through the whole process of aalizing the
organization, putting together a plan ofchecking in. I do surveys every other
(06:05):
year to measure their progress. Andnow they just have me on board to
help UM. You know when whenthey want to roll out as certain aspects
out given, give me some ideasof what you do as a diversity coach.
Yeah, so UM I had onenational UM, well, I guess
this international organization. They called mein when UM there were actually this is
(06:27):
the young white folks on staff.It's massive. And at one of their
conferences they were asking, you know, what they could do differently, and
for the second year in a role, they were like, we are ninety
five percent white, and if youwant to keep us, you're going to
do something about this. This isnot what our worlds look like. You
know, we're we're twenty somethings andwe were raised in a much more diverse
(06:50):
UM atmosphere and there's something wrong aboutthis. And they really put the pressure
on the leadership to do it better. And so I called after that last
conference and I worked with their leadershipteam and I did their surveying and some
of them was tough. What doyou say? Um, I won't talk
in particular about them because there's someum you know, I need to protect
(07:14):
sure generally. Yeah, when Iget things back, sometimes it's really shocking
to leadership because people will say thingsand and rary sometimes very racist stuff,
which can shock the system overtivertly.Yeah, I had I had one group
that, Um, there were acouple of things, and I'm rarely shocked
(07:35):
anymore. But when I when Iasked why should should black or brown people
be interested in coming here? Oneof the answers was for the privilege or
being around white people. And Iwas like, really, did I that's
funny, that's funny, but notfunny. Yeah, well I did the
same thing. I mean, I'vekind of stood up. I was in
(07:56):
bed going through this thing and itwas getting progressively worse, and I just
stood up in like went wow,Um so sometimes is that direct? Right?
Sometimes? And it can be reallyshocking to leadership when that happens.
Um. Mostly though, there's justthere is usually a willingness to to for
this change right here. Here's whereit gets problematic. Yeah, yeah,
(08:18):
yeah, we want to do this. We want to have people in but
we really don't want to change whowe are. We really we went to
assimilate people, so we don't wewant this variety. We want to be
inclusive, but when they walk inthe door, we want them to be
just like us. So that's wherethat's where my coaching comes in. It's
like, no, you hired thembecause they're bringing in a different culture and
(08:39):
a different experience that is kind ofreally enhance your innovation. But what you're
doing is trying to cram them intobeing just like the team that you already
had, but as a person,but as a black person, which you
just want what you want because that'swhat you know. So what what do
you do? What is you?What did you Obviously you're a diversity coach,
(09:01):
you're a researcher and is that justscratching the service? What else do
you do? Yeah? So,um, you know, my unofficial tagline
is culture eats d I. Soyou can have all these wonderful plans,
but if your culture is cracked andbroken, and so I do a lot
of work and a lot of workshopsand a lot of training to get people
(09:22):
to really understand who they are andhow it's going to impact whatever program that
they're trying to put into place interms of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Um. I think there was thisrush after the death of George Floyd
to oh man, we need todo better, we need to make these
have these diversity statements. I'm tellingyou now, if that's what motivated you
(09:43):
period, I'm probably not going towork with you. There are clients I
will absolutely turn down. If thisis parked in your marketing department. I'm
not your I'm not your researcher,because what it's saying to me is that
you're doing this to tell the externalworld that you're interested and bringing in a
(10:03):
variety of people into your company.But has these people are not going to
have a good experience when they comein. Now you need to change the
DNA. You need to what's theirsoul, what's what's what's really inside?
Yeah, first thing I say isis this work in your core values?
And there's this look up. No, our core value and core values are
often around whatever they're producing, andthey want to be good, good employers.
(10:26):
They want to be I said,this thing is not at the heart
of your DNA. If you havenot established this as a core value.
You need to work on doing thatfirst. So it is deeply entranced in
how you operate always, not justthis is a program. And and so
I work with them sometimes I dovalues boarding. I have worked with changing
(10:48):
whole value statements for organizations to toget them ready for this. So I
do that work again a lot ofspeaking. I run my mouth a lot
around this topic. I even toUM. There's an organization called the Independent
Sector, which is a national organizationthat's headquartered out of Washington, DC.
(11:09):
They are national UM, they havedifferent UM. Their headquarters is there,
but they have different things all overthe nation and they are a membership organization
for nonprofits from really massive, largeyou know nonprofits, to smaller ones to
individuals. So three times a yearI do a national show for them on
racial equity, race and health equity. And so we launched this thing during
(11:33):
UM COVID and there are times thatthey're just hundreds of folks on a zoom
and we're having topical conversations about whatever'shappening. And then in the nonprofit sector
around race and health equity. MI amc sometimes for organizations and yeah,
I say, I've run my moutha lot. So I do you know,
(11:56):
um, facilitation of conversation around thisstuff, you know, for different
organizations, sometimes in person, sometimesonline. But I really have gotten a
comfort level in doing that type offacilitation over the last few years. And
I really am trying to expand that. What's your biggest challenge or what is
it that you want people to whatwould help encourage some change. I think
(12:24):
it always starts with knowing who youare right now. It's stay in that
snapshot is it is understanding if youreally want to do this work, you
need to question why you want todo it. And and so I am.
I tell people I have a doctoredin storytelling because I really share my
own story, my own path toleadership. It was bumpy, I will
(12:48):
say to them when I walk ina room. You know, you're seeing
this woman with a doctor and who'sa leader of this, that and the
other. But you don't really knowmy story as an African American woman who
grew up in not the best ofneighborhoods. Um, where did you grow
up Indianapolis, Indiana? Yeah,about three hundred seventy two miles away.
(13:09):
Oh yeah, okay, so whatkind of community was it? All black,
loving, supportive UM. But alsoUM, there wasn't a lot of
investment of our city in those communities. So in terms of my education,
especially as as a in grade school, UM, we had a lot of
folks who probably should have retired thatwere there. That's the school system was
(13:33):
hanging on to. And so Iwas a bright kid that probably didn't get
everything she needed, you know,even through high school. I think it
was a lot later on that Irealized that, you know, that I
had a lot of potential, butit was never fed into UM. There
was no one encouraging me to goto college. You know, if my
family had not been educated and interestedin My grandparents even taught at a small
(13:56):
black Episcopal college in Okolonna, Mississippi. You know, there was this value
of education in my family that droveme. But had I left it up
to that community, in those schools, in that environment, then I would
not be doing what I'm doing.So where did you go to college?
So I went to Indiana University inthe state of Indiana. So I had
to make that make that distinction sincethere's an Indiana University here. But I
(14:20):
did my undergrad there and I dida master's in philanthropy of all things.
Isaiah Thomas. Yeah, near thesame time. I did Masters in Philanthropy
and Masters in Nonprofit Management, whichreally kind of launched this whole nonprofit leadership
career. So you what was whatwas your what was your focus in school
philanthropy and nonprofit management? Wow?Okay, so that's that led to nonprofits.
(14:45):
So what did you What was thefirst nonprofit you work for? I
went to a community organization. Itwas like fifteen community centers and I was
doing HR and some things for them, and that was my first launch.
Was it mainly in the black community? Um? Yes, A lot a
lot of it was, but notall of it. Um. So career
(15:07):
wise, I have done a lotof working with nonprofits who or either membership
organizations like that one UM. Iwas a vice president of the y MCA
and of Greater Indie doing a lotof their urban work and so again another
membership type organization, and they're right. Before I came to Pittsburgh, I
ran a statewide organization that did juveniledelinquency prevention. All right, tell us
(15:31):
about your your how you came toPittsburgh. Got recruited twice for the same
job. The first time around.I guess in twenty oh, lord,
I'm starting to lose track now,maybe twenty ten. I had been called.
It came out an interview. Ithought I had the job, and
it ended up going to somebody wason that was on the word of directors,
(15:52):
and then I got called to comeback in a year that personally lasted
a year. So I got calledback to come and run a It was
a large nonprofit and in a blackneighborhood here in Pittsburgh, multi service centers,
childcare. We ended up doing alot of economic development work. I
(16:14):
built a grocery store in a communitythat had not had one and thirty years.
I opened a charter school for kidswho had dropped out of high school
and wanted to go back. Itwas keeping five thousand balls in the air
at once because of the you know, we owned seven properties when I got
here, there one hundred employees.But also the organization was troubled. It
(16:37):
was, you know, financially andnot great shape. I did not know
that before I came to the extentthat it was, but what had happened
it allowed me to learn so muchabout this community. It's funding community,
its support for underserved communities. Ireally got to know it in a way
that was both how do I discore? I fell in love with Pittsburgh and
(17:02):
I didn't UM. I knew therewere a lot of disparities doing this work
and they were distinct and UM andsad and UM. So I have a
big mouth, so I would pushhard for resources for the communities that I
was working in. We'll be honestwith me. What what give us your
research or give us an honest assessment, either from you know, from a
(17:26):
research standpoint, where can where canPittsburgh improve? UM? Pittsburgh has this?
Pittsburgh loved itself, so you knowall American city, you know the
sports that you know. We weare great at the marketing pitch, but
sometimes we don't go deep about whyeveryone is not enjoying UM. This what
(17:48):
we feel is this privilege of thiscommunity and the systemic reasons why we are
not UM. We often do alot of blaming of people who have been
systemically oppressed. You know, whywhy aren't they why are they living in
houses like this? Weren't they makingmore money? You know, it became
really distinct during COVID when you hadfrontline workers making seven fifty an hour.
(18:11):
Most of these folks were not willingto pay them much more, but they
sure as heck we're trying to forcethem to come back to work and not
really particularly caring about their families andtheir stability. And you know, a
lot of these folks ended up homelessbecause they couldn't, you know, sustain
their families. When those layouts happened. It happened at those levels too,
and so we just have a wayof just hoping it fixes itself. And
(18:37):
one of the things that really wasencouraging to me after COVID. During COVID
and was there was a much moreawareness about those underserved communities, those underresourced
communities, were work being put intosome of the challenges in those areas.
It was a huge shift after that, and I feel good that I was
(19:02):
into some small extent a part ofthat. Um I worked with One Hood
Media and the Urban Kind Institute tolaunch a program called What Black Pittsburgh Needs
to Know. And we were greenas we wanted to be, at least
I was, and doctor Jamil andBay and and just SyRI X Siri wasn't
his green because he's done this becausehe has a media company. But the
(19:22):
three of us. You know,we're in meetings with thunders, and we
were like, how are we goingto get information out to the black community.
They are going to die at arate so much higher than than white
Pittsburgh, and so what are wegonna do. We're on the phone and
they we're like, we're gonna doa podcast, and I'm like we,
Um, you know, is therea mouse in your pocket? Eye?
I've never done a podcast, andoh come on, yeah, come on,
(19:47):
it seems such like a shy wallflower. Yeah. I think they knew
they were. Yeah, well yeah. Basically in the conversation they were like,
doctor Cheryl, you talk a lot. You're gonna be the You're gonna
be the moderator. And I'm like, oh my god, no, So
so if you the podcast still it? Yes, podcasts ended up going live
on Facebook. The first one youwill see it's ten minus of dead airtime
(20:11):
because we didn't even realize we wereon you to see me basically shuffling paper.
It was bad, but trust me, everybody thinks they know what we
can do. Anybody talks to youcan do. Radio mad respect for successful
podcasts at this point, but um, and I think, you know,
we launched, and then the secondshow happened. Then we were doing every
(20:33):
Tuesday at two o'clock every week,and then it got kind of scary because
it was like, people are listening. There are five hundred live listeners right
now. There are forty thousand folksgoing back and listening to what we're saying.
And so that show was so educational. We bought it only black black
folks, um. And there wasa reason there were we wanted to introduce
(20:53):
to our community and to the region, these black professionals. There were epidemiology,
just public health specialists, all thesepeople that we felt our audience could
identify with, could trust, whowould listen to about what to do during
this crisis and um and so.But the audience built, I think at
a much faster pace than we expected, to the extent you know, we
(21:17):
ended up going live on YouTube,We're on Spotify, we're on Apple now.
UM, so there's there's a twoand a half you know, your
body of work on all those placesif people want to go back. It
got so big that I was interviewingsomebody for the State Department who was in
Ethiopia called me wanting me to dodiversity work and I'm talking to this guy
and I'm like, this is whatD and this is what BW three does.
(21:41):
He's staring at me on this zoomand I'm looking at him like,
well, why is he looking atme? And he was like, I've
seen you and I'm like, Idon't think so. And been in Ethiopia.
He was like, you do thatblack um that show about black Pittsburgh
and I've seen that. My friendswere sending it to me saying we need
to do this in DC. Sohere I am talking to this guy and
(22:03):
I was blown away with just howfar the world is. Oh my goodness.
Yeah. And even afterwards when Iwould started to go out again,
my voice, I guess it's distinctivein some kind of way, and I
would be in stores talking and peoplewould are you talk? Sure you?
I think I know you. I'mlike, I don't know who you are.
But but I realized just the powerof that medium to really deliver important
(22:27):
message. Just to be supportive,we had people on who would never have
been invited to any other program totalk about what they did. What kind
of feedback did you get? Itwas amazing. Indeed, later on the
show started to be supported m onehoodMedia started to receive some financial support,
you know, to keep it going. Um it just it ended up launching
(22:49):
other programs Ask a Black Doctor,Ask a Black Lawyer, those kind of
things, because we realized there wasthis hunger for information in these communities that
leads a certain you're centment ignored.Their needs have been ignored, and it
was fascinating to me. I workwith the Department of Human Services now and
when their director said to me,every Tuesday two I gave my entire staff
(23:12):
permission to shut down to watch yourshow. And I was like, you're
you're kidding. She said, no, these were people we were not We
were not reaching and the ways thatwe wanted to. And we learned so
much every week about how to adjustwho to reach out to. You were
bringing people on that we really wantedto have a relationship with to deliver emergency
(23:33):
services. She said, we expanded, you know, our our reach so
much because a lot of these peoplewe didn't know existed until we saw your
show, your Pittsburgh centric but nowthat you have kind of a global way.
So is there plans to expand We'vewe've talked about it. Um.
(23:53):
I know one who media itself.You know, they're kind of everywhere and
it's a it's a really growing mediacompany, and so I don't know whether
they want to do it or not, but I'm definitely thinking about it,
you know, whether whether even Iwant to expand out and do a podcast,
because it struck a nerve. Therewere certain things, you know,
(24:14):
you got to get in there andfigure out what your lane is. I
think we were doing everything after awhile. We were doing education. We
were bringing in you know, leadershipUniversity of Pittsburgh and talking about how teachers
are instructed to work in these schoolsaround black children. We were it always
had some angle and how things impactedyou know, black communities. We were
the place to go during the protestafter George Floyd because we were winding down
(24:38):
after COVID and then George Floyd happened, and then the protests happened, and
so we were having people on talkingabout why it got to this extent here,
why the protests in Pittsburgh went onas for as long as they did.
So we really dug into some ofthe underbelly issues around the differences here
and why we continue to be assegregated as we are. This is a
(25:00):
pretty segregated city, the most segregatedof any cities of the six I've lived
in and including a stint in Europe. So I had not seen this to
this extent, and I really wantedto understand it, not just not just
drag it, but get a betterunderstanding of it and understand how we could
do better. And and my work, my d Ei work really goes at
(25:25):
the heart of a lot of this. It goes in it talks to companies.
When somebody says we tried to highsome black people, you know,
I hear that a lot of times, this whole kind of a half hearted
effort. You know, we postedthe job, nobody came, and I'm
like, you'll never change. Researcherssays, it takes about it. It
will be another one hundred and fiftyyears before before we get We don't have
(25:45):
that kind of time. I don'tthink I'm gonna work it that later.
I think I'm gonna retire before then. So, you know, it just
doesn't happen organically. You gotta work, You gotta do the work. When
I was in college a long timeago, forty years ago, one of
the topics in our debate class wasracism and you know it is things improving,
(26:06):
and that was forty years ago andthat conversation is still happening today,
is there? But I do thinkthe younger generation is more accepting of a
lot of diversity. Sure, isthat something that has proved out in the
research. They are they're more comfortabletalking about it. Um. Is it
changing the landscape? Um? Notthat much. When you still look at
(26:32):
who's heading corporations when you still therestill is an assumption that you can you
can come in, we want youhere, but not necessarily an executive leadership.
And so the stats around, especiallywhen you look at Fortune five hundred
companies and there, the stats arestill pretty miserable. Um, in terms
of folks who look like me,especially black and female, who are actually
(26:52):
leading at that level. And theresearch will also say black women in particular
are the most ambitious, so theywill come through. You know, our
our college grad rates are high inthe in their interviews and the research that
I've seen, there is this fearlessnesslike, yeah, I'm gonna run it.
I absolutely and much more than whitewomen. In the research, Black
(27:14):
women will say, we'll have thisidea of we're gonna run something and what's
happening now is instead of continue tobeat their heads at the corporate level and
not being allowed to move up,they're just they're launching their own businesses.
I never saw myself as a businessowner, even though my dad was an
entrepreneur. It never occurred to me, after twenty five years of running organizations
(27:34):
are working for corporate that I wouldlaunch something on my own. And one
of the things Pittsburgh did for meit provided it's a space where black women
are just like, we're gonna fixit. You either let us fix it
inside or we'll start something to fixit. And so I was watching these
women around me just go for itand and launch things and launch nonprofits and
(27:57):
launch you know, just it wasamazing and I got really inspired here and
I was terrified. Um, youknow, I had been used to to
having that steady income. I hada brand new house I bought on the
North Side, I had a kidwith with Catholic school tuition, single,
and here I am launching a businessbecause my passion pushed me to it,
(28:21):
and and a lot of prayer um, which was I think I'm doing the
right thing, Lord, priests protectme. I'm doing it and UM,
I left my job CEO position inApril and I launched BW three in May,
and that was six years ago inMay. Yeah, how's it going.
It's going good. I still gotthe house. So so tell us
(28:45):
about your team. So, UM, technically it's just me, But what
I've done is I've woven together ateam of black women UM here and in
the region. UM. I haveother researchers that UM we will respond to
request for proposals together on and soI have qualitative researchers. I have human
resource professionals. I have people whojust do training around the issues of diversity,
(29:10):
acuity, and inclusion. So ifI work with a client and I
realize this is what your weaknesses are, you need somebody to come into train
about what inclusion is are to getpeople to better understand their biases, are
better understand how you really can createa sense of belonging. I have a
person who does a really great jobat that type of training, and so
we just have a network of peopleand it just depends on the job.
(29:33):
My Michigan partner I work with probablymost, but I definitely have local partners
here. In the six years sinceyou started, what did you learn that
I'm more stubborn than I thought.That's not necessarily a bad thing, right,
and that you know, we talkabout bringing our whole selves to work.
(29:56):
It's it's a nice thought. Peopledon't really want to say your whole
self. I just did a lectureon this at Chatham University. I'm a
visiting scholar there, and we talkedabout the whole idea of bringing your whole
self to work. And that meansmy being able to come in with my
head full of braids or my bigfull head of fuzzy hair that grows out
of my head just that way andI'm quite proud of it. That means
(30:18):
my being comfortable culturally with my speechpatterns, with my and that that type
of authenticity that people say they want, but in reality, what they really
want is you to sound like them. So I had to make people aware
of what they were doing in termsof that. And so I have a
(30:41):
clause sometimes when even when I geta contract, and it can be a
big one, I make people thinkabout it. I'm like, we're not
going to sign this today because here'swhat I need you to think about.
I'm not cold switching. I amnot switching to make sure that you feel
more comfortable with me. I'm notdoing that. This is whatever you this
person that you met doing this processas a person that's going to be working
with you for the next few months, and I need you to be okay
(31:04):
with that because I have spent twentyplush years code switching as a leader,
and I don't do that anymore.In the six years. Do you see
you see progress? Are you?Are you seeing in the people that you've
you've worked with? Yeah? Areyou seeing a little bit of progress?
Yeah? I would. I wouldhave left a long time ago ahead.
(31:25):
I not UM. I think thereis UM. People are somewhat jaded about
this work, and they're getting moreand more jaded about it. There was
this rash, well, there wasthis rash of chief diversity offers that were
hired after George Floyd. We're goingto make changes, and you know,
they're paying these really high paid positions, and now they're a rash of layoffs
for those positions because when people foundout that they had to change their cultures,
(31:48):
that they weren't resourcing these positions.They were putting these folks in in
roles to make changes, but reallyweren't supporting them and doing it, and
when when the ferther died down quietly, these people are losing their jobs.
So for me, working for myself, I have what is the luxury of
(32:09):
working with clients who really want tomake changes, and I am super clear
about that. I will not workwith you if your top leadership is not
willing to spend time with me,because what you've done is you've handed it
off to HR You've handed it offto a couple of people to make changes,
and that's the way you see it. Then I want to be a
part of it because I'm not walkingaway from any engagement without knowing that their
(32:32):
changes have happened, that they're onthe road to something that's real, And
so I'm pretty intense about that.I've only fired one client, but I
had to because it was clear tome that they weren't sincere about the work.
They didn't want me to talk abouttheir human resource policies, they didn't
want to they would do any otherthings that may potentially make them look bad.
(32:52):
All right. So the bottom linefor a lot of these companies is
the bottom line. Can they makemore money? Are you seeing that the
capability of a company to have adiverse workforce and make more money. Absolutely.
So my client Clark Construction and Lansing, and I think they're fine with
me me saying that they construction companiesand tech are hard. You know,
(33:17):
they are very white, male orientedspaces, and and so when I got
a call from them, I waslike, Oh, I don't know construction,
do I want to do this?They got it, they really got
it. They're still struggling because ofwhere they're located hiring people of color.
It's it's more difficult because it's it'sa it's a pretty white area. But
(33:38):
then they started to talk to meabout the work that they did and how
it became very attractive to people whowanted to use their company because they had
a proven track record. And soa lot of other people who wanted to
use a construction company wanted to understand, how diverse are you? How are
you hiring people who are going towork on our project that look like us?
(33:59):
Are they going? And Clark wasable to say, yeah, yeah,
we're committed to this. And sobottom line wise, they were beating
out their competitors because when those questionswere asked, they'd done their homework,
they had proof that they had thesediverse teams and they were getting contracts over
their competitors and sometimes it's that youknow, and they were very honest about
(34:20):
it. Isn't not the only reasonwe're doing it, but it's a heck
of a you know, heck ofa thing over here that we were being
recognized board and people see this asvaluable and it has increased our our work.
After COVID, we heard a lotof talk and a lot of people
talking about, you know, weneed workers, we need workers, and
you you've talked about that. Yeah, but are they getting paid what they
(34:45):
deserve? And is that something thatyou're also kind of sure working towards.
Absolutely, so, pay equity hasbeen a big thing um. When I
work with human resource departments, Iask about their their hiring processes, how
are they pricing out jobs? Justbeing a woman leader executive for a long
time, I knew it was underpaidfor decades. And so I do a
(35:08):
lot of work like I have agroup in Flint in Michigan right now that
I'm doing a competency profile for anew leader that they're getting. We're not
looking at race, we're not lookingat gender, We're looking at what are
the base competencies you need for thisjob, and if you get that's how
much are you going to pay thatperiod, So you don't get this thing
(35:28):
of well, this woman came inand maybe she had five years less experience,
so we're gonna pay her two hundredthousand. But if the guy comes
in and he's got ten or twelve, you know, we're gonna give him,
you know, to fifty two seventy. This is traditionally what we've done.
Or we say he's a man,he's taking care of his family,
and so we're gonna we're gonna bumpit up another twenty thousand. We won't
outwardly say it, but it's donein practice all the time. And so
(35:52):
what we do is try to dothings really based on what are your needs,
what are the competencies needed? Lessprices out now, so you don't
get into all that fluctuation when yousee my black based command apply for that
job and you decide that you canoffer to me a twenty five thirty thousand
dollars less. Because people do that, it has traditionally been done, and
I work with them to blind theseprocesses out enough that they don't start to
(36:15):
do that and then I have anotherfriend who does that kind of work,
looking at at the overall pay scalesin organizations too, and sometimes people are
pretty surprised. They usually know bythe time they call us. They're like,
Ah, we're kind of upset downon some of this stuff. But
then to fix it, that meansthey've got to invest in it. And
so I'm like, be prepared.It's gonna cost you to catch up.
(36:37):
It's gonna be worth it. Peopleare going to stay with you longer.
They're gonna believe in what you're saying. They're gonna feel that you've committed to
them, and they're going to committo you. But it's it's gonna cost
you a little bit of money inthe long run. Yeah. People stay
where they feel like they belong,and sometimes it's not about money. It's
about being recognized for their talent.It's about feeling comfortable, and so they
(37:01):
will stay. They will overlook awhole lot of stuff if they feel like
they are really contributing to a teamand that company appreciates who they are.
What are you most proud of personally? I am proud of the fact that
I took a risk, a bigone, and what I believe in and
my passion, and and I didn'tlook back, you know, I just
(37:23):
I pulled on my faith and Isaid, I'm going to do this.
I want to. I stayed inPittsburgh because a lot of black folks who
come here, Research again says intwo and a half years they're out of
here. They don't stay, andthere's a lot of investment in bringing us
here, and then we leave becausewe're dealing with a lot of the racial
issues. And I committed to Pittsburgh. There were a lot of things I
(37:44):
liked about it and the things thatI did not like about it. I
decided to be a part of changingand I often good question about it.
You're still here. I don't makemy goodness people, I've run into books.
Oh my god, I can't believeyou're still here. I'm like,
no, I've raised my child here. She was eight when we got here.
She'll be twenty one and September andso, UM, I guess I'm
(38:04):
proud that I that have stuck itout and I'm being a part of the
solution to make this place better.Are you making a difference? I think
I am, Um, and um, you know, I don't I don't
advertise, you know, people callme. I haven't really advertised in three
years, and I've never lacked business, so there must be some value that
this reason is seeing in the workthat I that I do um and I'm
(38:28):
appreciative of that. I don't takeit for granted at all. And if
somebody wants more information on BW three, they could go to b W three
culture dot com, which is ourwebsite and all of our contact information is
there. And I'm all the stufffrom LinkedIn to u Instagram to even Twitter,
which I may be pulling out ofbecause good lord is that accessible.
(38:52):
But yeah, doctor Cheryl hall Russella BW three, a CEO you Should
Know, thank you so much.Thank you. I appreciated the conversation.
This has been the CEOs You ShouldKnow podcast showcasing businesses that are driving our
regional economy part of my Heartmedia's commitmentto the communities we serve. On Johnny
hartwell, thank you so much forlistening.
And welcome. This is the CEOsYou Should Know podcast. I'm your host,
Johnny Hartwell, let's say hello todoctor Cheryl Hall Russell, a BW
three Black Women Wise Women. Thankyou for joining me, thank you for
having me. I'm glad to behere. All right, So telling us
everything we need to know about yourorganization. Black Women Wise Women are BW
three, which is a lot easierto say, is a diversity, equity
(00:27):
and Inclusion research firm? What isthat? And so we have organizations that
call us and say we're struggling toget the correct amount of diversity. We
know we're going to be more innovativeif we bring in people up different backgrounds,
and so they talk to me aboutit, and then I say,
don't do it. What do youmean, don't do it now? Because
(00:50):
if you've had an out organization,you've been open forty five years, it
has not been diverse. Doing ittomorrow is probably going to be a failure.
So I come in as a researcherand I do surveys, I assess
the organization. I figure out yourorganizational culture before you take something like that
on, we do some training,we put a plan together. So what
(01:11):
we don't want to do is bringpeople into our beautiful city in this region
and then have them leave a yearand a half later because it just didn't
more counted. So you ease theminto a way that it's going to be
successful. Absolutely, I prepare thatorganization. I work with them to prepare
themselves for the changes that they wantto see. People can be super sincere
about this kind of work and theythink, you know, and they look
(01:33):
at the diversity side, we wantto have hired six more black people.
We want to you know, wedon't have enough gay folks, and they
get really numbers oriented. I wantyou to keep them. I want the
experiences for these people that come intoyour organization to be a good one.
So what's the history behind BW three. So for twenty odd years, and
it's hard to believe it went onthis long. I was a CEO for
(01:59):
a nonprofit CEO and so our generationnonprofit leader, a mother, my grandmother,
and there were a constant theme throughoutmy leadership was having to deal with
issues of race and gender. Soand it got pretty acute when I came
to Pittsburgh in particular, and soI wanted to better understand that journey and
(02:22):
why it was so difficult for leaderslike me. And so during my last
leadership position, I went back toPoint Park University to get my doctorate and
leadership, and I looked at whatit's called intersectional leadership, Right, people
who look like me, people whoare underrepresented in leadership, what's their journey
(02:45):
like, what are takeaways those peoplehave really been successful? What have they
had to do? And what typesof organizations were really successful and you know,
really promoting and having people like melead. And so I did there
for three and a half years whileI was a CEO, and when I
got done, I launched BW three. And what was your philosophy? What
(03:07):
was the goal of the company?The business? You know, there was
a part of me that wanted toreally I saw the sincerity and companies who
really did want to do this,right, who really did really couldn't understand
why they could not attract and retainunderrepresented groups, be they women, be
they black folks, be they gayfolk. And this is the whole variety
(03:30):
of us out here who want leadershipopportunities. And I knew they wanted to
do this, but they were reallystruggling to do this in a systemic way
that would last. And so Ididn't want to come in and go,
hey, I'm going to do abiased train and or I'm going to do
it, because I honestly don't believethat works. My research says it does
not work. And so I builtrelationships. I you know, I become
(03:54):
very close. I'm coaching CEOs,I am you know, and really getting
to know organizations so I better understandand I'm better able to assess the chances
they're going to successfully do what theywant to do. Every CEO I interview
CEOs every week, and they're they'rethey're they're always different, and they have
(04:14):
different philosophies, and the companies aredifferent. And I'm sure you look at
that I do. And so there'sno cookie cutter solution to especially when you're
talking about trying to enhance diversity ina company. So what is You're a
researcher, So what is some ofthe research. What is some of the
research that you find that helps youand helps companies achieve those goals? You
(04:39):
know, just flat on paper andresearch will say more diverse organizations and more
inclusive organizations. Diversity is easy.That's that's going there. And you're hiring
people who look different, keeping them, including them, including their voices,
creating a place where they feel likethey belong is a heck of a lot
different. So there's more work there. And when you talk about CEOs in
(05:00):
particular, I find, especially withthe coaching, they know their businesses right.
They they got the mission down,They've got all this other stuff if
they're doing with just they know howmany they need to produce. When they
get into this area of dorace toequity and inclusion, they however, often
don't feel as comfortable. They wantto do right, but they don't have
(05:20):
the confidence in doing it. Andso one of my jobs is as an
equity coach. And so I comein, you have this plan you want
to put out there. I willcoach you through that plan. I help.
I've got you know, I've gotto do this presentation, I don't
feel great about it, and Iwill go in and coach you. I've
(05:43):
had people call me you right beforethey go in front of a big company
meeting to say, Okay, thisis what I'm gonna say this, this
makes us to you, and Ido that. Sometimes it's more just kind
of a I'm a retainer who aresome some large corporations and they just call
me when things come up. We'vegone through the whole process of aalizing the
organization, putting together a plan ofchecking in. I do surveys every other
(06:05):
year to measure their progress. Andnow they just have me on board to
help UM. You know when whenthey want to roll out as certain aspects
out given, give me some ideasof what you do as a diversity coach.
Yeah, so UM I had onenational UM, well, I guess
this international organization. They called mein when UM there were actually this is
(06:27):
the young white folks on staff.It's massive. And at one of their
conferences they were asking, you know, what they could do differently, and
for the second year in a role, they were like, we are ninety
five percent white, and if youwant to keep us, you're going to
do something about this. This isnot what our worlds look like. You
know, we're we're twenty somethings andwe were raised in a much more diverse
(06:50):
UM atmosphere and there's something wrong aboutthis. And they really put the pressure
on the leadership to do it better. And so I called after that last
conference and I worked with their leadershipteam and I did their surveying and some
of them was tough. What doyou say? Um, I won't talk
in particular about them because there's someum you know, I need to protect
(07:14):
sure generally. Yeah, when Iget things back, sometimes it's really shocking
to leadership because people will say thingsand and rary sometimes very racist stuff,
which can shock the system overtivertly.Yeah, I had I had one group
that, Um, there were acouple of things, and I'm rarely shocked
(07:35):
anymore. But when I when Iasked why should should black or brown people
be interested in coming here? Oneof the answers was for the privilege or
being around white people. And Iwas like, really, did I that's
funny, that's funny, but notfunny. Yeah, well I did the
same thing. I mean, I'vekind of stood up. I was in
(07:56):
bed going through this thing and itwas getting progressively worse, and I just
stood up in like went wow,Um so sometimes is that direct? Right?
Sometimes? And it can be reallyshocking to leadership when that happens.
Um. Mostly though, there's justthere is usually a willingness to to for
this change right here. Here's whereit gets problematic. Yeah, yeah,
(08:18):
yeah, we want to do this. We want to have people in but
we really don't want to change whowe are. We really we went to
assimilate people, so we don't wewant this variety. We want to be
inclusive, but when they walk inthe door, we want them to be
just like us. So that's wherethat's where my coaching comes in. It's
like, no, you hired thembecause they're bringing in a different culture and
(08:39):
a different experience that is kind ofreally enhance your innovation. But what you're
doing is trying to cram them intobeing just like the team that you already
had, but as a person,but as a black person, which you
just want what you want because that'swhat you know. So what what do
you do? What is you?What did you Obviously you're a diversity coach,
(09:01):
you're a researcher and is that justscratching the service? What else do
you do? Yeah? So,um, you know, my unofficial tagline
is culture eats d I. Soyou can have all these wonderful plans,
but if your culture is cracked andbroken, and so I do a lot
of work and a lot of workshopsand a lot of training to get people
(09:22):
to really understand who they are andhow it's going to impact whatever program that
they're trying to put into place interms of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Um. I think there was thisrush after the death of George Floyd
to oh man, we need todo better, we need to make these
have these diversity statements. I'm tellingyou now, if that's what motivated you
(09:43):
period, I'm probably not going towork with you. There are clients I
will absolutely turn down. If thisis parked in your marketing department. I'm
not your I'm not your researcher,because what it's saying to me is that
you're doing this to tell the externalworld that you're interested and bringing in a
(10:03):
variety of people into your company.But has these people are not going to
have a good experience when they comein. Now you need to change the
DNA. You need to what's theirsoul, what's what's what's really inside?
Yeah, first thing I say isis this work in your core values?
And there's this look up. No, our core value and core values are
often around whatever they're producing, andthey want to be good, good employers.
(10:26):
They want to be I said,this thing is not at the heart
of your DNA. If you havenot established this as a core value.
You need to work on doing thatfirst. So it is deeply entranced in
how you operate always, not justthis is a program. And and so
I work with them sometimes I dovalues boarding. I have worked with changing
(10:48):
whole value statements for organizations to toget them ready for this. So I
do that work again a lot ofspeaking. I run my mouth a lot
around this topic. I even toUM. There's an organization called the Independent
Sector, which is a national organizationthat's headquartered out of Washington, DC.
(11:09):
They are national UM, they havedifferent UM. Their headquarters is there,
but they have different things all overthe nation and they are a membership organization
for nonprofits from really massive, largeyou know nonprofits, to smaller ones to
individuals. So three times a yearI do a national show for them on
racial equity, race and health equity. And so we launched this thing during
(11:33):
UM COVID and there are times thatthey're just hundreds of folks on a zoom
and we're having topical conversations about whatever'shappening. And then in the nonprofit sector
around race and health equity. MI amc sometimes for organizations and yeah,
I say, I've run my moutha lot. So I do you know,
(11:56):
um, facilitation of conversation around thisstuff, you know, for different
organizations, sometimes in person, sometimesonline. But I really have gotten a
comfort level in doing that type offacilitation over the last few years. And
I really am trying to expand that. What's your biggest challenge or what is
it that you want people to whatwould help encourage some change. I think
(12:24):
it always starts with knowing who youare right now. It's stay in that
snapshot is it is understanding if youreally want to do this work, you
need to question why you want todo it. And and so I am.
I tell people I have a doctoredin storytelling because I really share my
own story, my own path toleadership. It was bumpy, I will
(12:48):
say to them when I walk ina room. You know, you're seeing
this woman with a doctor and who'sa leader of this, that and the
other. But you don't really knowmy story as an African American woman who
grew up in not the best ofneighborhoods. Um, where did you grow
up Indianapolis, Indiana? Yeah,about three hundred seventy two miles away.
(13:09):
Oh yeah, okay, so whatkind of community was it? All black,
loving, supportive UM. But alsoUM, there wasn't a lot of
investment of our city in those communities. So in terms of my education,
especially as as a in grade school, UM, we had a lot of
folks who probably should have retired thatwere there. That's the school system was
(13:33):
hanging on to. And so Iwas a bright kid that probably didn't get
everything she needed, you know,even through high school. I think it
was a lot later on that Irealized that, you know, that I
had a lot of potential, butit was never fed into UM. There
was no one encouraging me to goto college. You know, if my
family had not been educated and interestedin My grandparents even taught at a small
(13:56):
black Episcopal college in Okolonna, Mississippi. You know, there was this value
of education in my family that droveme. But had I left it up
to that community, in those schools, in that environment, then I would
not be doing what I'm doing.So where did you go to college?
So I went to Indiana University inthe state of Indiana. So I had
to make that make that distinction sincethere's an Indiana University here. But I
(14:20):
did my undergrad there and I dida master's in philanthropy of all things.
Isaiah Thomas. Yeah, near thesame time. I did Masters in Philanthropy
and Masters in Nonprofit Management, whichreally kind of launched this whole nonprofit leadership
career. So you what was whatwas your what was your focus in school
philanthropy and nonprofit management? Wow?Okay, so that's that led to nonprofits.
(14:45):
So what did you What was thefirst nonprofit you work for? I
went to a community organization. Itwas like fifteen community centers and I was
doing HR and some things for them, and that was my first launch.
Was it mainly in the black community? Um? Yes, A lot a
lot of it was, but notall of it. Um. So career
(15:07):
wise, I have done a lotof working with nonprofits who or either membership
organizations like that one UM. Iwas a vice president of the y MCA
and of Greater Indie doing a lotof their urban work and so again another
membership type organization, and they're right. Before I came to Pittsburgh, I
ran a statewide organization that did juveniledelinquency prevention. All right, tell us
(15:31):
about your your how you came toPittsburgh. Got recruited twice for the same
job. The first time around.I guess in twenty oh, lord,
I'm starting to lose track now,maybe twenty ten. I had been called.
It came out an interview. Ithought I had the job, and
it ended up going to somebody wason that was on the word of directors,
(15:52):
and then I got called to comeback in a year that personally lasted
a year. So I got calledback to come and run a It was
a large nonprofit and in a blackneighborhood here in Pittsburgh, multi service centers,
childcare. We ended up doing alot of economic development work. I
(16:14):
built a grocery store in a communitythat had not had one and thirty years.
I opened a charter school for kidswho had dropped out of high school
and wanted to go back. Itwas keeping five thousand balls in the air
at once because of the you know, we owned seven properties when I got
here, there one hundred employees.But also the organization was troubled. It
(16:37):
was, you know, financially andnot great shape. I did not know
that before I came to the extentthat it was, but what had happened
it allowed me to learn so muchabout this community. It's funding community,
its support for underserved communities. Ireally got to know it in a way
that was both how do I discore? I fell in love with Pittsburgh and
(17:02):
I didn't UM. I knew therewere a lot of disparities doing this work
and they were distinct and UM andsad and UM. So I have a
big mouth, so I would pushhard for resources for the communities that I
was working in. We'll be honestwith me. What what give us your
research or give us an honest assessment, either from you know, from a
(17:26):
research standpoint, where can where canPittsburgh improve? UM? Pittsburgh has this?
Pittsburgh loved itself, so you knowall American city, you know the
sports that you know. We weare great at the marketing pitch, but
sometimes we don't go deep about whyeveryone is not enjoying UM. This what
(17:48):
we feel is this privilege of thiscommunity and the systemic reasons why we are
not UM. We often do alot of blaming of people who have been
systemically oppressed. You know, whywhy aren't they why are they living in
houses like this? Weren't they makingmore money? You know, it became
really distinct during COVID when you hadfrontline workers making seven fifty an hour.
(18:11):
Most of these folks were not willingto pay them much more, but they
sure as heck we're trying to forcethem to come back to work and not
really particularly caring about their families andtheir stability. And you know, a
lot of these folks ended up homelessbecause they couldn't, you know, sustain
their families. When those layouts happened. It happened at those levels too,
and so we just have a wayof just hoping it fixes itself. And
(18:37):
one of the things that really wasencouraging to me after COVID. During COVID
and was there was a much moreawareness about those underserved communities, those underresourced
communities, were work being put intosome of the challenges in those areas.
It was a huge shift after that, and I feel good that I was
(19:02):
into some small extent a part ofthat. Um I worked with One Hood
Media and the Urban Kind Institute tolaunch a program called What Black Pittsburgh Needs
to Know. And we were greenas we wanted to be, at least
I was, and doctor Jamil andBay and and just SyRI X Siri wasn't
his green because he's done this becausehe has a media company. But the
(19:22):
three of us. You know,we're in meetings with thunders, and we
were like, how are we goingto get information out to the black community.
They are going to die at arate so much higher than than white
Pittsburgh, and so what are wegonna do. We're on the phone and
they we're like, we're gonna doa podcast, and I'm like we,
Um, you know, is therea mouse in your pocket? Eye?
I've never done a podcast, andoh come on, yeah, come on,
(19:47):
it seems such like a shy wallflower. Yeah. I think they knew
they were. Yeah, well yeah. Basically in the conversation they were like,
doctor Cheryl, you talk a lot. You're gonna be the You're gonna
be the moderator. And I'm like, oh my god, no, So
so if you the podcast still it? Yes, podcasts ended up going live
on Facebook. The first one youwill see it's ten minus of dead airtime
(20:11):
because we didn't even realize we wereon you to see me basically shuffling paper.
It was bad, but trust me, everybody thinks they know what we
can do. Anybody talks to youcan do. Radio mad respect for successful
podcasts at this point, but um, and I think, you know,
we launched, and then the secondshow happened. Then we were doing every
(20:33):
Tuesday at two o'clock every week,and then it got kind of scary because
it was like, people are listening. There are five hundred live listeners right
now. There are forty thousand folksgoing back and listening to what we're saying.
And so that show was so educational. We bought it only black black
folks, um. And there wasa reason there were we wanted to introduce
(20:53):
to our community and to the region, these black professionals. There were epidemiology,
just public health specialists, all thesepeople that we felt our audience could
identify with, could trust, whowould listen to about what to do during
this crisis and um and so.But the audience built, I think at
a much faster pace than we expected, to the extent you know, we
(21:17):
ended up going live on YouTube,We're on Spotify, we're on Apple now.
UM, so there's there's a twoand a half you know, your
body of work on all those placesif people want to go back. It
got so big that I was interviewingsomebody for the State Department who was in
Ethiopia called me wanting me to dodiversity work and I'm talking to this guy
and I'm like, this is whatD and this is what BW three does.
(21:41):
He's staring at me on this zoomand I'm looking at him like,
well, why is he looking atme? And he was like, I've
seen you and I'm like, Idon't think so. And been in Ethiopia.
He was like, you do thatblack um that show about black Pittsburgh
and I've seen that. My friendswere sending it to me saying we need
to do this in DC. Sohere I am talking to this guy and
(22:03):
I was blown away with just howfar the world is. Oh my goodness.
Yeah. And even afterwards when Iwould started to go out again,
my voice, I guess it's distinctivein some kind of way, and I
would be in stores talking and peoplewould are you talk? Sure you?
I think I know you. I'mlike, I don't know who you are.
But but I realized just the powerof that medium to really deliver important
(22:27):
message. Just to be supportive,we had people on who would never have
been invited to any other program totalk about what they did. What kind
of feedback did you get? Itwas amazing. Indeed, later on the
show started to be supported m onehoodMedia started to receive some financial support,
you know, to keep it going. Um it just it ended up launching
(22:49):
other programs Ask a Black Doctor,Ask a Black Lawyer, those kind of
things, because we realized there wasthis hunger for information in these communities that
leads a certain you're centment ignored.Their needs have been ignored, and it
was fascinating to me. I workwith the Department of Human Services now and
when their director said to me,every Tuesday two I gave my entire staff
(23:12):
permission to shut down to watch yourshow. And I was like, you're
you're kidding. She said, no, these were people we were not We
were not reaching and the ways thatwe wanted to. And we learned so
much every week about how to adjustwho to reach out to. You were
bringing people on that we really wantedto have a relationship with to deliver emergency
(23:33):
services. She said, we expanded, you know, our our reach so
much because a lot of these peoplewe didn't know existed until we saw your
show, your Pittsburgh centric but nowthat you have kind of a global way.
So is there plans to expand We'vewe've talked about it. Um.
(23:53):
I know one who media itself.You know, they're kind of everywhere and
it's a it's a really growing mediacompany, and so I don't know whether
they want to do it or not, but I'm definitely thinking about it,
you know, whether whether even Iwant to expand out and do a podcast,
because it struck a nerve. Therewere certain things, you know,
(24:14):
you got to get in there andfigure out what your lane is. I
think we were doing everything after awhile. We were doing education. We
were bringing in you know, leadershipUniversity of Pittsburgh and talking about how teachers
are instructed to work in these schoolsaround black children. We were it always
had some angle and how things impactedyou know, black communities. We were
the place to go during the protestafter George Floyd because we were winding down
(24:38):
after COVID and then George Floyd happened, and then the protests happened, and
so we were having people on talkingabout why it got to this extent here,
why the protests in Pittsburgh went onas for as long as they did.
So we really dug into some ofthe underbelly issues around the differences here
and why we continue to be assegregated as we are. This is a
(25:00):
pretty segregated city, the most segregatedof any cities of the six I've lived
in and including a stint in Europe. So I had not seen this to
this extent, and I really wantedto understand it, not just not just
drag it, but get a betterunderstanding of it and understand how we could
do better. And and my work, my d Ei work really goes at
(25:25):
the heart of a lot of this. It goes in it talks to companies.
When somebody says we tried to highsome black people, you know,
I hear that a lot of times, this whole kind of a half hearted
effort. You know, we postedthe job, nobody came, and I'm
like, you'll never change. Researcherssays, it takes about it. It
will be another one hundred and fiftyyears before before we get We don't have
(25:45):
that kind of time. I don'tthink I'm gonna work it that later.
I think I'm gonna retire before then. So, you know, it just
doesn't happen organically. You gotta work, You gotta do the work. When
I was in college a long timeago, forty years ago, one of
the topics in our debate class wasracism and you know it is things improving,
(26:06):
and that was forty years ago andthat conversation is still happening today,
is there? But I do thinkthe younger generation is more accepting of a
lot of diversity. Sure, isthat something that has proved out in the
research. They are they're more comfortabletalking about it. Um. Is it
changing the landscape? Um? Notthat much. When you still look at
(26:32):
who's heading corporations when you still therestill is an assumption that you can you
can come in, we want youhere, but not necessarily an executive leadership.
And so the stats around, especiallywhen you look at Fortune five hundred
companies and there, the stats arestill pretty miserable. Um, in terms
of folks who look like me,especially black and female, who are actually
(26:52):
leading at that level. And theresearch will also say black women in particular
are the most ambitious, so theywill come through. You know, our
our college grad rates are high inthe in their interviews and the research that
I've seen, there is this fearlessnesslike, yeah, I'm gonna run it.
I absolutely and much more than whitewomen. In the research, Black
(27:14):
women will say, we'll have thisidea of we're gonna run something and what's
happening now is instead of continue tobeat their heads at the corporate level and
not being allowed to move up,they're just they're launching their own businesses.
I never saw myself as a businessowner, even though my dad was an
entrepreneur. It never occurred to me, after twenty five years of running organizations
(27:34):
are working for corporate that I wouldlaunch something on my own. And one
of the things Pittsburgh did for meit provided it's a space where black women
are just like, we're gonna fixit. You either let us fix it
inside or we'll start something to fixit. And so I was watching these
women around me just go for itand and launch things and launch nonprofits and
(27:57):
launch you know, just it wasamazing and I got really inspired here and
I was terrified. Um, youknow, I had been used to to
having that steady income. I hada brand new house I bought on the
North Side, I had a kidwith with Catholic school tuition, single,
and here I am launching a businessbecause my passion pushed me to it,
(28:21):
and and a lot of prayer um, which was I think I'm doing the
right thing, Lord, priests protectme. I'm doing it and UM,
I left my job CEO position inApril and I launched BW three in May,
and that was six years ago inMay. Yeah, how's it going.
It's going good. I still gotthe house. So so tell us
(28:45):
about your team. So, UM, technically it's just me, But what
I've done is I've woven together ateam of black women UM here and in
the region. UM. I haveother researchers that UM we will respond to
request for proposals together on and soI have qualitative researchers. I have human
resource professionals. I have people whojust do training around the issues of diversity,
(29:10):
acuity, and inclusion. So ifI work with a client and I
realize this is what your weaknesses are, you need somebody to come into train
about what inclusion is are to getpeople to better understand their biases, are
better understand how you really can createa sense of belonging. I have a
person who does a really great jobat that type of training, and so
we just have a network of peopleand it just depends on the job.
(29:33):
My Michigan partner I work with probablymost, but I definitely have local partners
here. In the six years sinceyou started, what did you learn that
I'm more stubborn than I thought.That's not necessarily a bad thing, right,
and that you know, we talkabout bringing our whole selves to work.
(29:56):
It's it's a nice thought. Peopledon't really want to say your whole
self. I just did a lectureon this at Chatham University. I'm a
visiting scholar there, and we talkedabout the whole idea of bringing your whole
self to work. And that meansmy being able to come in with my
head full of braids or my bigfull head of fuzzy hair that grows out
of my head just that way andI'm quite proud of it. That means
(30:18):
my being comfortable culturally with my speechpatterns, with my and that that type
of authenticity that people say they want, but in reality, what they really
want is you to sound like them. So I had to make people aware
of what they were doing in termsof that. And so I have a
(30:41):
clause sometimes when even when I geta contract, and it can be a
big one, I make people thinkabout it. I'm like, we're not
going to sign this today because here'swhat I need you to think about.
I'm not cold switching. I amnot switching to make sure that you feel
more comfortable with me. I'm notdoing that. This is whatever you this
person that you met doing this processas a person that's going to be working
with you for the next few months, and I need you to be okay
(31:04):
with that because I have spent twentyplush years code switching as a leader,
and I don't do that anymore.In the six years. Do you see
you see progress? Are you?Are you seeing in the people that you've
you've worked with? Yeah? Areyou seeing a little bit of progress?
Yeah? I would. I wouldhave left a long time ago ahead.
(31:25):
I not UM. I think thereis UM. People are somewhat jaded about
this work, and they're getting moreand more jaded about it. There was
this rash, well, there wasthis rash of chief diversity offers that were
hired after George Floyd. We're goingto make changes, and you know,
they're paying these really high paid positions, and now they're a rash of layoffs
for those positions because when people foundout that they had to change their cultures,
(31:48):
that they weren't resourcing these positions.They were putting these folks in in
roles to make changes, but reallyweren't supporting them and doing it, and
when when the ferther died down quietly, these people are losing their jobs.
So for me, working for myself, I have what is the luxury of
(32:09):
working with clients who really want tomake changes, and I am super clear
about that. I will not workwith you if your top leadership is not
willing to spend time with me,because what you've done is you've handed it
off to HR You've handed it offto a couple of people to make changes,
and that's the way you see it. Then I want to be a
part of it because I'm not walkingaway from any engagement without knowing that their
(32:32):
changes have happened, that they're onthe road to something that's real, And
so I'm pretty intense about that.I've only fired one client, but I
had to because it was clear tome that they weren't sincere about the work.
They didn't want me to talk abouttheir human resource policies, they didn't
want to they would do any otherthings that may potentially make them look bad.
(32:52):
All right. So the bottom linefor a lot of these companies is
the bottom line. Can they makemore money? Are you seeing that the
capability of a company to have adiverse workforce and make more money. Absolutely.
So my client Clark Construction and Lansing, and I think they're fine with
me me saying that they construction companiesand tech are hard. You know,
(33:17):
they are very white, male orientedspaces, and and so when I got
a call from them, I waslike, Oh, I don't know construction,
do I want to do this?They got it, they really got
it. They're still struggling because ofwhere they're located hiring people of color.
It's it's more difficult because it's it'sa it's a pretty white area. But
(33:38):
then they started to talk to meabout the work that they did and how
it became very attractive to people whowanted to use their company because they had
a proven track record. And soa lot of other people who wanted to
use a construction company wanted to understand, how diverse are you? How are
you hiring people who are going towork on our project that look like us?
(33:59):
Are they going? And Clark wasable to say, yeah, yeah,
we're committed to this. And sobottom line wise, they were beating
out their competitors because when those questionswere asked, they'd done their homework,
they had proof that they had thesediverse teams and they were getting contracts over
their competitors and sometimes it's that youknow, and they were very honest about
(34:20):
it. Isn't not the only reasonwe're doing it, but it's a heck
of a you know, heck ofa thing over here that we were being
recognized board and people see this asvaluable and it has increased our our work.
After COVID, we heard a lotof talk and a lot of people
talking about, you know, weneed workers, we need workers, and
you you've talked about that. Yeah, but are they getting paid what they
(34:45):
deserve? And is that something thatyou're also kind of sure working towards.
Absolutely, so, pay equity hasbeen a big thing um. When I
work with human resource departments, Iask about their their hiring processes, how
are they pricing out jobs? Justbeing a woman leader executive for a long
time, I knew it was underpaidfor decades. And so I do a
(35:08):
lot of work like I have agroup in Flint in Michigan right now that
I'm doing a competency profile for anew leader that they're getting. We're not
looking at race, we're not lookingat gender, We're looking at what are
the base competencies you need for thisjob, and if you get that's how
much are you going to pay thatperiod, So you don't get this thing
(35:28):
of well, this woman came inand maybe she had five years less experience,
so we're gonna pay her two hundredthousand. But if the guy comes
in and he's got ten or twelve, you know, we're gonna give him,
you know, to fifty two seventy. This is traditionally what we've done.
Or we say he's a man,he's taking care of his family,
and so we're gonna we're gonna bumpit up another twenty thousand. We won't
outwardly say it, but it's donein practice all the time. And so
(35:52):
what we do is try to dothings really based on what are your needs,
what are the competencies needed? Lessprices out now, so you don't
get into all that fluctuation when yousee my black based command apply for that
job and you decide that you canoffer to me a twenty five thirty thousand
dollars less. Because people do that, it has traditionally been done, and
I work with them to blind theseprocesses out enough that they don't start to
(36:15):
do that and then I have anotherfriend who does that kind of work,
looking at at the overall pay scalesin organizations too, and sometimes people are
pretty surprised. They usually know bythe time they call us. They're like,
Ah, we're kind of upset downon some of this stuff. But
then to fix it, that meansthey've got to invest in it. And
so I'm like, be prepared.It's gonna cost you to catch up.
(36:37):
It's gonna be worth it. Peopleare going to stay with you longer.
They're gonna believe in what you're saying. They're gonna feel that you've committed to
them, and they're going to committo you. But it's it's gonna cost
you a little bit of money inthe long run. Yeah. People stay
where they feel like they belong,and sometimes it's not about money. It's
about being recognized for their talent.It's about feeling comfortable, and so they
(37:01):
will stay. They will overlook awhole lot of stuff if they feel like
they are really contributing to a teamand that company appreciates who they are.
What are you most proud of personally? I am proud of the fact that
I took a risk, a bigone, and what I believe in and
my passion, and and I didn'tlook back, you know, I just
(37:23):
I pulled on my faith and Isaid, I'm going to do this.
I want to. I stayed inPittsburgh because a lot of black folks who
come here, Research again says intwo and a half years they're out of
here. They don't stay, andthere's a lot of investment in bringing us
here, and then we leave becausewe're dealing with a lot of the racial
issues. And I committed to Pittsburgh. There were a lot of things I
(37:44):
liked about it and the things thatI did not like about it. I
decided to be a part of changingand I often good question about it.
You're still here. I don't makemy goodness people, I've run into books.
Oh my god, I can't believeyou're still here. I'm like,
no, I've raised my child here. She was eight when we got here.
She'll be twenty one and September andso, UM, I guess I'm
(38:04):
proud that I that have stuck itout and I'm being a part of the
solution to make this place better.Are you making a difference? I think
I am, Um, and um, you know, I don't I don't
advertise, you know, people callme. I haven't really advertised in three
years, and I've never lacked business, so there must be some value that
this reason is seeing in the workthat I that I do um and I'm
(38:28):
appreciative of that. I don't takeit for granted at all. And if
somebody wants more information on BW three, they could go to b W three
culture dot com, which is ourwebsite and all of our contact information is
there. And I'm all the stufffrom LinkedIn to u Instagram to even Twitter,
which I may be pulling out ofbecause good lord is that accessible.
(38:52):
But yeah, doctor Cheryl hall Russella BW three, a CEO you Should
Know, thank you so much.Thank you. I appreciated the conversation.
This has been the CEOs You ShouldKnow podcast showcasing businesses that are driving our
regional economy part of my Heartmedia's commitmentto the communities we serve. On Johnny
hartwell, thank you so much forlistening.
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