The Fall of The FBI - How A Once Great Agency Became a Threat To Democracy

That's the title of a book authored by Thomas Baker, 33 year Special Agent with the FBI. Yeah, I consider him an authority on the subject.

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Hey, good morning, and welcometo the second hour of the Morning Show
with Preston Scott, June sixth onthe radio program. Remember to take a
moment and remember those who lost theirlives on this day during the Allied invasion
at Normandy from America and our allies. They are remembering that sacrifice today as

(00:38):
we speak. And so it isJune sixth, and it's great to be
with you this morning. Grant Allenover there in Studio one A. I'm
here in Studio one B, Ashow four forty three of this radio program,
and I am thrilled to have withus. Thomas Baker. Thomas spent
thirty three years as an FBI specialagent. He has since left the agency.

(00:59):
He is author of a boy,The Fall of the FBI, How
a once great agency became a threatto democracy and Thomas, welcome to the
program. How are you, sir, Glad to be with you this morning,
Preston. I appreciate your service toour country, Thomas, And so
let me say that first upfront.I've got to believe that the decision to
write this book had to be somewhatpainful. What pushed you to do it?

(01:23):
Well? Painful? That's a verygood word actually, as I reflect
on these things and I talk topeople about what's happened and what's become our
FBI in the last few years,of heartbreaking is the word I use.
And for me and for many others, it is heartbreaking. How many people

(01:44):
inside the agency, you know,I have as we've talked, you know,
doing what I do. You talkabout the stories and what's going on
with the FBI. Sadly we haveto talk about it all the time,
it seems like. But I constantlymentioned that the people the rank and file
special agents are good men and womenthat really want to do a good job

(02:05):
and do it well, and doit properly and do the right things.
But that the upper management, ifthe leadership of the bureau is what I'll
use the word corrupted now. Isthat your appraisal and assessment as well.
To some extent, I've talked toa lot of very recently retired or resigned
agents, and I'm into contact withseveral people in the bureau still and there

(02:29):
is a lot There are a lotof people that feel the way I do.
They're heart group at the change inculture. They see a tremendous problem
towards our nation, There's no doubtabout that. I think the problem is
not individual so much as the changein culture that was brought about by Muller
and Coullie, and that leads toa whole bunch of different outcomes. When

(02:51):
I've interviewed authors over the years thatwrite this type of book, there always
seems to be that straw that breaksthe camel's back. What was it for
you? What was it that thatokay, you kind of maybe you were
thinking about writing it, but wasthere one particular thing that pushed you to
say we have to write this.Well, yes, there were so many

(03:15):
things, but what it really wasis is is the failure by the current
top leader of COMYN and then Ray, and Ray has persisted in this and
because I started writing the book whenComy was still a director, is to

(03:37):
failure to recognize the problem. Andmore and more that comes to the four
each time an incident comes out,whether it's the original Russian collusion investigation,
Uh, the FBI actually fired Komy, Struck, McCabe, the key,
the key villains there, each incidencethat happened since then, we always get

(04:00):
the explanation from Ray, well,those people are no longer with us.
In effect, we fired the badapples. That it's a matter of bad
apples, and my contention is beyonda matter of bad apples. It was
a change in culture, a changeof approach to the business, a change
in mission, and that has tobe corrected and it won't be corrected until

(04:21):
it's recognized. The Morning Show withPreston Scott Boy that escalated quickly. I
mean, that really got out ofhand fast. On WFLA Thomas Baker our
guest, former FBI special agent,author of a book to followed the FBI.
Thomas, you mentioned a couple oftimes the cultural changes, our cultural

(04:45):
changes, the type of thing thatyou can track down. Is it written
in policy or is it intentionally notwritten in policy? Well, ultimately it's
manifest in your mission statement and yourapproach to your business. What happened And
in my book sort of a subtitleof it, I refer to as the
good, the band, and theugly. I do try to show how

(05:09):
great the FBI once was. Thegood and then the bad, of course,
is some injustice, and the uglyis the stuff that's come to light
here in the last three, fouror five years. The change, the
change you can put your finger onit. Almost in the FBI. Happened
when Bob Muller became the director.Bob Muller famous as the Special counsel of

(05:32):
the Russian collusion investigation. He wasmade the director of the FBI just a
few days before the September eleventh attack, and the September eleventh attack been on
a Tuesday. On Saturday, Septemberfifteenth, he was summons to President Bush's
retreat in Camp David, Maryland inthe woods, where the President was kind

(05:57):
of hunkered down, surrounded by hisnational security team, and he presented to
the FBI reported the investigation to thatpoint, not only about three and a
half days actually elapsed between the attackon Tuesday and that Saturday morning, And
in that time, the FBI haddone what it does best investigate, and
they had identified all nineteen hijackers,they're financing their travel, their associates,

(06:21):
their background, their connections to alQada. And when he was done presenting
that a rather thorough report, GeorgeW. Bush just looked at him and
said, I don't care about that. I just want to know how you're
going to prevent the next one.Well, Mala left that meeting and Mala
has told us this numerous times.Bounded determined to change the culture of the

(06:45):
FBI. He used the word froma law enforcement mentality to that of an
intelligence agency. Well, it mayhave been good reasons for that at that
moment, but it had unintended consequences, many even bad consequences. Is that
where the abuses of FISER really stemmedfrom. Absolutely FISER was created. And

(07:06):
this is something that the Congress cancorrect. You don't even need a coastal
change in the FBI to fix this. FISER was created in nineteen seventy eight
to have illegal means legal framework forgathering intelligence on foreign agents resident in the
United States. And so it wasonly to be used to gather intelligence,

(07:28):
not for prosecutions, and only onforeigners. And that was the case,
and it stayed that way until afterSeptember eleventh, and the Act was amended
and amended and amended again, andnow it permits the legal part of it
permits the monitoring the electronic intrusion underthe Fiser Act Foreign Selligence Aveillance Act of
US persons and that's of course UScitizens of legal aliens, and US corporations.

(07:56):
The change Congress can make us torestore fise it to its original purpose
of only being used against foreigners.It sounds as though for a layperson like
myself and for most of us thatare listening today Thomas, that the key
here is the FBI has lost itsway from being an investigative agency to now
are surveilling one. Is that accurate. That's accurate, And that's key Preston,

(08:22):
because here's the distinction. I'll maketwo distinctions criminal investigation and the mindset
of people who handle criminal investigations,even if they're working on counterintelligence or counter
terrorism, is you start at acertain point to the fact a complaint,
crime, whatever, and you moveforward in a straight line to find the

(08:45):
culprit and eventually bring them to courtand to justice. Intelligence work goes in
circles. It never ends. Youpick up a piece of intelligence, you
go around and pick up another piece, and pick up another piece. And
the people now who have come toprominent in the bureau of these intelligence analysts,
not the special agents, and theintelligence analysts are always looking for ways

(09:05):
to probe, probe and more.And that's why they come up with these
literally crackpot ideas to certain groups thatlike to use a certain flag that rose
or the one of the most atrociousproposals of all they came up was to
focus on Catholics who prefer to worshipusing Latin and somehow that makes them potential

(09:31):
enemies. WFLA on your phone withthe iHeart radio AM and on hundreds of
devices like Alexa, Google Home,Xbox and Sonos and Ihearts radio station.
Final segment this morning with Thomas Baker. The book is The Fall of the
FBI, How a once great agencybecame a threat to democracy. He spent

(09:54):
thirty three years of his professional careeras an FBI special agent. He served
in the old FBI Office of Congressionaland Public Affairs, and is with us
this morning. How important is itfor the FBI to acknowledge its role good
batter indifferent in the Russian collusion case, as well as its role or lack

(10:18):
thereof, and whatever's going on orhas gone on with the current president Joe
Biden and his son Hunter. Well, it's extraordinarily important, and it was
all laid out for us just acouple of weeks ago in Durham's report.
John Durham, the Special Council wholooked into the origins of the Russian collusion
case. Did you find that reportcredible? Incredibly so heartbreaking, So it

(10:41):
validates an awful lot of the stuffI said in my book. Okay,
and number one, but number two, what he did. He comes to
the conclusion there was absolutely no justificationfor opening that investigation whatsoever. And he
goes through the items with specificity,including the issues around the Foreign Intelligence of
Aillance Act. But in his conclusionhe used the term the phraseology that the

(11:05):
FBI has to be continuously reminded ofthis and it's need to adhere to be
the guidelines that have existed, youknow, as I said, since since
nineteen seventy eight, really under AttorneyGeneral Ed would leave you when they were
first set out that these guidelines haveto be followed. There's no need for
new rules, new regulations. Theyjust have to follow the guidelines. And

(11:28):
they didn't. Well, what wasmost disappointing about that when the report came
out the current director Ray said thatthe people who were involved in that fiasco
are no longer with He didn't seesay fiasco, that's my word, but
he's the people who were involved inthat are no longer with us. Durham
pointed, out the need to continuouslylearn from this, and now we see

(11:54):
similar when we don't see we don'tknow what the hell is going on with
the excuse my expression, with theHunter Biden as, but we know there's
something there the laptop that's validated.Most of the information on the laptop is
available to the public through Miranda Divine'sbook and other avenues. The One Congressional
Committee has found millions, literally millionsand millions of dollars being washed around through

(12:18):
the banking system, ending up inthe accounts of half a dozen members of
the Biden family. To anyone withthe least amount of intelligence, that looks
suspicious. And now we have thishuman information that's being swabbled over that there

(12:39):
was a specific five million dollar paymentwhich may or may not turn out to
be true, but there is somethingthere and it needs to be looked at,
not buried. Is it possible thatJoe Biden, when he went on
television and talked about being the vicepresident and going to Ukraine and telling them
to fire their attorney general that wasinvestigating Barisma, where his son or sat,

(13:03):
his son Hunter sat on the board, was that a criminal act by
the Vice president at the time Idon't know, but it probably wasn't.
Certainly it was an abusive authority,an abuse of his position, using his
authority to help and protect his son. And that's a lot of these things,

(13:24):
even and Durham said this, goingback to the Russian colusion thing.
A lot of these things we arenot actually crimes, unfortunately, but they
are abuses of authority. And thathappened again and again and again and again,
the unmasking of General Flynn and others. Most people have the authority to
do that, but doing it sopromiscuously was an abusive authority. We see

(13:48):
this again and again that there's alack of restraint which you would find.
Getting back to my point in alaw enforcement agency that's bound by constitutional guidelines,
an intelligence agency, they just keepgoing out and bigger and bigger circles,
gathering more and more information. ThomasBaker, final moment with US former
FBI special agent, author of abook Fallow the FBI. Thomas, how

(14:11):
will we know that the FBI hascorrected its course when they say in their
mission statement, the mission statement begins, now it's an intelligence an agency.
When they put the phraseology about beinga law enforcement agency backup on top when

(14:31):
they get a control over this wokeculture of these intelligence analysts. These people
are being recorded and are driving theagenda. When we put special agents who
are in charge, trained in theConstitution back in charge. Right now,
the people in the bureau tell methe intelligence analysts are driving the agenda.

(14:52):
And that's how you come up withthese crackpot ideas like investigating people who prefer
to pray in Latin, clearly aviolation on several levels of potential violation of
the First Amendments. Thomas, Iwish you well and great success in your
book. I hope you're keeping yourfirearm proficiency up. And thanks for making

(15:13):
time for us this morning. Thankyou, Preston for your time. I
appreciate it. Sir Thomas Baker,former FBI agent, twenty seven minutes after
the hour the book The Fall ofthe FBI. How a once great agency
became a threat to democracy? Idon't know. I think thirty three years
inside the Bureau and working with Congressmight give you some insight. Great,

(15:41):
great, great to have him onthe show this morning on the Morning Show
with Preston Scott