April 7, 2022 • 39 mins
People sometimes tell Ali that they wish their marriage was like her 20+ year marriage to broadcaster George Stephanopoulos. They just seem to be a golden match. So in this episode she is exploring what “couple envy” is and informing her marriage fans - don’t! Psychologist and writer Dr. Joshua Coleman says couple envy is really just part of our basic human nature - to compare and contrast. He and Ali also talk about why it’s better if your spouse is NOT your best friend, why it’s actually good for a marriage to commiserate with friends about partners, and the critical keys to sustaining a long relationship…oh, and “sex envy” is a thing too!
If you have questions or guest suggestions, Ali would love to hear from you. Call or text her at (323) 364-6356. Or email go-ask-ali-podcast-at-gmail.com. (No dashes)
Links of Interest:
The Atlantic: Dr. Joshua Coleman
The Key to Escaping the Couple-Envy Trap
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio as a stand
up comedian, of which I am not. I tried. It's hilarious.
I've been your fan forever. Hey, you know I should
say right now, I'm married, so I'm off the table.
We can do weekends. Get your bullshit detector and get
(00:21):
it honed. Are you mad about something? Go out and
seek people who are mad about related things, and also
listen to them if part of what they're mad about
is you. You actually look for those little colonels of hope. Yeah,
well that's that's a good stuff. I think it is
a good stuff, and I think we need a good stuff.
Always Welcome to Go ask Allie. I'm Ali Wentworth and
(00:45):
this season I'm digging into everything I can get my
hands on. I'm just peeling back the layers and getting dirty.
And speaking of getting dirty, this episode is about couple envy.
I think everyone's experienced it at one weight in their life.
I remember I was living in Los Angeles. I was
a single young girl driving her Ford Fiesta and I
(01:09):
had these friends that were married and they were considered
quote unquote the golden couple. They were both successful actors,
and they lived in a fabulous house, and they had
the perfect rescue dogs, and everything they did I thought
was perfect. They're so in love, they balanced each other out.
(01:30):
They exude success in every sense of the word. And
idolized them. And I remember when they got divorced, it
shook everybody because we all thought they're the golden couple.
How could they be getting divorced. That's who we compared
everything too. So I'm sort of fascinated with this idea
of couple envy, and I have a perfect guest to
(01:52):
discuss this with me. His name is Dr Joshua Coleman.
Joshua Coleman is a psychologist, off third and Senior Fellow
with the Council and Contemporary Families, a non partisan organization
dedicated to providing the press in public with the latest
research about American families. Dr Coleman has appeared on numerous
news programs and TV shows ranging from Sesame Street to
(02:18):
He's written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Psychology Today,
Huffington Post, and Yes many more. Dr Coleman is the
author of four books, including the Rules of Estrangement, Why
Adult Children Cut Ties, and how to heal the conflict. Hello.
Dr Coleman, Hello, thank you so much for being here.
You know, I discovered you because I read the Atlantic
(02:41):
magazine and I read an article you wrote about couple envy,
which I've always found a very fascinating subject because I
think everybody's had a version of that, you know, where
there's been another couple in their life that they think,
oh my gosh, they have everything, They're so perfect, they're
so happy. The people that I've sort of had those
(03:03):
experiences with all ended up getting divorced. And it is
the people that that when they were dating, I went, oh,
this is a nightmare. They've been married for a hundred
and fifty years. So right, So talk to me just
a little bit about couple envy in psychological terms and
things that you deal with. Sure, I think it's human nature.
I think we all look at other couples both to
(03:26):
measure how we fit in. Humans are very status conscious.
So part of our status is, you know, did I
marry the right person? Should I be in a better relationship?
And I still I settle? Could I be even happier?
So one of the ways that we make that determination
was by looking at other couples and seeing how they
do it. But as there's so many things that are
part of our human nature, they could also create enormous unhappiness.
(03:49):
They can cause us to idealize, to your point, couples
that really shouldn't be idea as to a kind of
presenting themselves in a more idealized fashion than it really exists.
It can also perpet you wait, a myth about romantic
relationships that you know, if you just get the right person,
it's all going to work out well, and hides the
fact that most really all long term relationships have periods
(04:11):
of crisis and despair even and and so the problem
with idealizing other couples is that you're not really seeing
the real them. It's like looking at an Instagram post. Yeah,
I think that that's sort of our culture in general.
We perpetuate these romantic comedies and romantic movies, and you know,
romantic novels sell probably bigger than any other book in
(04:33):
the world. I'm just making that up right, But I
just want to sound smart. But um, but my point
is we love romance, particularly are on the French too,
but we love romance, and so it's very easy to
get sucked into that hole of like, oh, this is
what it should look like like, you said, And so
my husband sitting on the couch eating potato chips, he
(04:55):
doesn't look like you. Grant. You know, you start to
and I correct me if I wrong. I think what
we do then is not look at our relationship as
a whole, but we start nitpicking our partner. He's not
good enough, he's not sexy enough, he's not smart enough. Right.
It's almost like we wish that we could kind of
just combine all the qualities of our best friends spouses
(05:16):
are our best friends, and combine them into one perfect partner,
and you know, the realities You might envy some other
couple that, oh, they're so adventurous together, they last so
well together. If I was somebody like that, I'd be happier.
And maybe you could be with somebody who's funnier or sexier,
or more intellectual or any of those things. But then
you'd also have to leave the things that your partner
(05:37):
currently does contribute to the relationship. So I think there's
a lot of ways that we can quickly forget all
the assets of the positive qualities that our partner brings
to our lives. Have you spoken to a lot of
couples who one of them maybe went off it had
an affair, but came back because of this reason. They
thought that this woman or this man was gonna make
(05:58):
it all better, and it's you know, in the superfici
a level will be what I've been dreaming of, and
then they realize, oh my gosh, this person is not
she is horrible gas and she doesn't read the New
York Times and whatever it is right or you know,
even even more telling is that's really high percentage of
people who leave their marriages for their romantic love interests
(06:20):
in their context of an affair, even a long term affair.
Most of those marriages and in divorce because part of
the value of an affair is to get the prolonged
energy of the romantic because you're not dealing with reality.
You can have the best of the other person, but
you're not having to raise kids with them, or talk
about budgeting or you know, bills or housework any of
(06:40):
the other things that create ongoing stress and relationship. So
it's really easy to imagine that if I just find
the right person, and part of that is really our
own denial and naivety about how much how much our
own personalities, our own impatience or character flaws or anger
issues or whatever our inadequacies are, how we contribute to
(07:00):
our own unhappiness with that. Yeah, I wouldn't know what
that is, because I would so good. Our spouses aren't
here to defend themselves. Um. You know, I I think
about before I was married, and I was married late
in my mid thirties, I dated what I idealized, meaning
(07:23):
I dated the French director, I dated the British actor,
And so when I finally met my husband, I knew
what that was, you know what I mean, Like, I
don't meet people in my life and I go, God,
I wonder what that would have been like. And I
wonder if people who have not had a lot of
experiences or dated a variety of people, if they got
(07:47):
into a relationship so early on that they have a
tendency to idealize other relationships more because they don't have
any reference. Absolutely and statistically, the younger you are when
you marry, the more probable the likelihood is of your
getting divorced. So the later you marry, and there's other
things as well, the later you marry, the more educated
(08:09):
you are. The more financially successful you are, the better
the chances are of your having a longer term successful marriage.
But but you're absolutely right that not having kind of
a pool of people to compare the relationship to in
your partner too is really problematic. I mean, I was
married and divorced in my twenties, and I met my
second and current wife have many years in my mid thirties,
(08:31):
and it was helpful to say, you didn't say my
final wife, my final wife, I'm I'm going to go
on right my final thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that prompt. So,
but having that experience of having been divorced, particularly having
been divorced with a child, which I wouldn't wish anybody,
(08:52):
and then getting remarried and having more children, that also
provides a certain kind of sobriety about what real life
looks like. And so having all those years prior to
my second encourage and forever marriage did provide me with
kind of a pool of people to to compare it
to in ways that was has been really useful over
the years. Yeah, I think that when you're young, not
only do you maybe idealized potential partners, but when you're young,
(09:16):
you do idealize what you think a relationship is going
to look like. You want it to be the fairytale version,
you know, And so people get shocked and astounded when
they realized that, oh that he doesn't pick up his clothes,
or he does this, or he does that. And then
(09:37):
I think they throw in the towel too early because
of that, because of this kind of couple envy and
idealism when it comes to what a marriage is supposed
to look like. Now, I think that's absolutely right. You know,
therapists talk about the three stages of marriage versus infatuation,
which is really what the whole rom com novel and
movies predicated upon. You just meet the right person and
(09:59):
everything just works. Then there's a period of disillusion which
happens after the period of infatuation, whereas off for you're
kind of like, oh, this person isn't perfect. You both
stop being so perfect for the other. You start your
own character flaws reveal, uh, their character flaws revealed. Conflict occurs,
and you either get good at managing conflict and working
(10:21):
through the conflict or you break up. And if you
don't break up and you learn how to work through
the conflict and learn how to grieve that this is
not going to be the perfect prince charming and princess marriage,
that that conflict and difficulties is just part of the picture.
Then you go on too mature love, which really incorporates
that that your partner isn't perfect, that they have flaws
just like everybody else does, but so do you, and
(10:42):
all an enormous value can come from that. One of
the things I noticed, particularly now with social media is
this kind of obsession with the perfect couple. And what
I mean by that is, you know, you'll see a
celebrity couple on social media and fans will hashtag goals,
you know, all that kind of stuff. And even to
(11:04):
myself and my husband, a few people have said, during
the course of our marriage, which is past twenty years now,
um oh, I just you know, I just want to
have a marriage like yours, And I go, don't say that,
you know what I mean? And it's not it's not
a slight to my husband, but it's like, no, it's
we're sitting at a dinner in a really nice French
restaurant and we're holding each other's hand because we're in
(11:25):
a good mood, you know, but this is don't let
this fool you. But I make a joke about it
all the time, and because I don't like people to
look at us through that lens at all, you know,
because then I think are reperpetuating something that isn't true
right now, I think we do a disservice to other
couples if you do perpetuate the myth that you have
it all together. I mean, my wife and have a
(11:47):
very strong marriage, and that they were numerous times in
the early years of our raising children that we came
very close to breaking up, and it was really only
because neither of us wanted to be divorced parents that
we hung there, and then we eventually figured out how
to work it out. And now we have a really
strong marriage, Which doesn't mean we never fight and we're
free of conflict. It just means that that the significant
(12:09):
issues that really were incredibly challenging in the first part
of the marriage are far less challenging and more in
hand at this point. Yeah. I was thinking earlier today
about magazine sales and how kind of corporate America feeds
on this notion, And I was thinking about years ago
when Brad Pitt was doing this movie with Angelina Jolie
(12:31):
and his marriage with Jennifer Aniston broke up, and I
remember reading that that triangle sold more magazines in the
history of magazines, and I even remember people were discussing
it like they knew them, you know what I mean,
Like I can't believe he left jan they were perfect
and you know, or of course he left Jen look
at her, you know. And I remember thinking, this is ludicrous.
(12:54):
We're having discussions about people we don't know. But the
next layer of that is is, wait a minute. They
encompass what I thought was the perfect relationship, and so
if they're not together, then what does that say about mine?
Right exactly? It makes sure worried that yours is more fragile.
There's an interesting study done about about that. NT show
(13:15):
that you can conclude positive things or negative things about
a couple that's either doing better or worse than you.
If a couple is doing better than you, if your
state of mind is well, we can aspire to that
we could be even better. Or you could look at
a couple is worse than doing worse than you and think, well,
thank god, we're not them. So it really depends a
lot on your mindset and kind of how you're thinking
about your own relationship and where you want to go
(13:36):
with it. But one of the things I want to
emphasize is that some people just aren't happy with anybody.
I mean, I see this a lot in my practice.
They're just they're not going to be happy with anybody
because they're either to hurt from their own childhood issues,
they've been too disappointed in life their expectations about what
somebody else can reasonably repair from their own childhood hurts
and traumas, and so they end up sending away perfectly
(13:59):
good partners or not valuing all the great ways that
their partner does contribute to their lives. Yes, I have
a few friends like that. Who you know, People say, well,
why don't you set her up? She's beautiful, she's smart,
she's successful, And I go, yeah, that's great on paper,
Yeah exactly. So, I mean the on paper stuff never
(14:20):
never works. In my opinion, No, it doesn't work. And
that's that's the problem with the early part of the infatuation.
As everybody's on best behavior, they're consciously and unconsciously kind
of tailoring their own personalities to what that other person needs.
You know, the person said, oh, my last boyfriend never
communicated about their feelings. The guys probably going to communicate
a lot about his feelings, even if he's not a
(14:43):
great communicator. But once that period of idealization and infatuation
whereas off, then the real self emerges and then it's
a different story. So those are kind of infatuation addicts. Yeah,
as soon as that juice is run out, they kind
of move on to the next thing. Exactly. Yeah, they're done.
And that's why I think many marriages when that that
(15:03):
kind of infatuation phases over, they go, oh, I guess
we're not in love anymore because my arm pits aren't sweating,
my heart isn't beating hard. But that's really just because
it's turning into mature love. If it has all the
scaffolding it needs and it's time for a short break, great,
(15:31):
let's get back to it one of the things, and
tell me what you think about this. One of the
things I've learned in my old age is that women
have a tendency now that we let our guard down,
we're really honest with each other. And I found that
to be incredibly therapeutic, not only for me, but for
the other women. Um so, I I know that you've
(15:53):
talked about when groups of people have gotten together, Like
if you had a bunch of married couples that got
together and started really discussing why they look at other
people and are envious, they start to realize, oh, this
is common. Correct, absolutely, And that's what's valuable about having
close friends that you can confide in. And I heard
(16:14):
my wife the other day on the phone comparing notes
with one of her best friends about who had the
sloppiest husband. I was like, I thought, one, that's therapeutic
for you, dear, but but it actually is good for
the marriage because you know, they can they can kind
of bond around that they can see that they're not
alone in it, and you know, for friends and said, oh,
my husband's just so neat, he's perfect in every way.
(16:35):
I mean, she would have probably come home and been
mad at me. And so having close friends that you
can confide in here with their trials and tribulations are
is really really important and useful. Yeah, because you you
find yourself saying you think that's bad dot dot dot
Yeah exactly. And also I think what you something you
wrote once was that otherwise if everybody puts on this facade,
(16:59):
you come um and weaponize it towards your mate because
you're not connected the way they are or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly,
you're not sexual enough, you're not fun enough, you're not
adventurous enough, if you're not communicative enough like my best
friend's husband or wife is. And if you would only
be like that, I would be happy. And yeah, that
can really be a serious problem. But people do use that,
(17:21):
they do weaponize it. They do. I mean, I'm I'm
guilty of it. I've said to my husband, oh my god,
you know what so and so did. He took her
to Paris for her birthday. That's amazing. Anyway, thank you
for the card. Um. And I actually found that with
my daughters. There was one Mother's Day years ago when
they were young. Um, it was Mother's Day and nothing happened.
(17:46):
It was a non day. And I finally told my
husband aside, and I said, it's Mother's Day, but you're
the one that has to show them. And I don't
care about Mother's Day. What I want to teach them
is to think about others to give, you know, And
I said they should write me a card or paint
me a picture or something, and he didn't realize it
(18:07):
was sort of his responsibility, and they ran to CBS.
I got a carnation and some post it's that said
I love you, mommy, and you're golden. Yeah, And I
realized that I had two choices. I could be really
angry at him and the kids and mope around and
say like, you know, it's Mother's Day and you know
Sarah got two dozen roses and and her kids brought
(18:31):
her breakfast in bed. Or I can say, hey, this
has been a big family fail, and I'm going to
explain to you why so that next Mother's Day we're
not gonna have this problem. And it was very effective.
That's good, and I think it's a good way to
use kind of these um comparisons. Is a teachable moment
and sort of assume good intentions in your partner and
not treated as some huge character flower character fail and
(18:54):
their parton show them that what's meaningful to you about
it and using non critical language. And it sounds like
you did a good job of of doing that. And
he was able to respond. I mean, he didn't go
all the way, but he went far enough for you
to feel like he was taking it seriously. He went
to CBS, which was nice, that's pretty far. Well, it's
a mile. Um. But I found that in my marriage
(19:17):
it is the communication because I found many times that
my husband would say I didn't know what to do.
I was scared, you know. So every year now my birthday,
he'll say, what do you want for your birthday? Because
I don't want to make a mistake, so just tell me.
And I don't say, what do you mean, I don't
want anything? Stop it. He goes, you do want stuff?
And please don't make me guess, Please don't put me
(19:39):
through this. But um, I want to go back to
the talking with the friends because he is not my
best friend. And I think in marriage it's okay to
say my mate is not my best friend, because I
used to see it in movies like oh my god,
he's my best we're best friends. And I was like,
I don't I think we're best friends, you know. And
(20:02):
I realized that because a lot of the stuff that
me and my girlfriends like to chew on, my husband doesn't.
If somebody's getting a divorce, I want to talk about
that for three days straight. Why why are they get
a divorced whereas my husband's like, oh, that's so sad,
and that's it. So I realized, oh, why put that
pressure on my partner when there are people that will
(20:24):
chew on this for three days with me. You know,
my female and male friends are providing such a great service.
And so a lot of times people say what kind
of marital advice do you have, and I say, don't
go into marriage thinking oh, this is my everything. I
don't need anybody else, because you're really setting them up
for a fall. Yeah. I think this idea that that
(20:46):
one partner should be able to fulfill all of your needs,
your intellectual needs, you need for humor, for play, for adventure,
for venting, for compassion. It really Britain's marriage and that's
why people who have more friends tend to do that
are in marriage. You're not expecting that person to fulfill
every need. The interesting thing that is that for most
and men, their wives or romantic partners are their best friend,
(21:09):
if not their only friend. And so sometimes I hear
women complaining about the fact that kind of like, you know,
can you kind of get some other friends and I'm
not the only person that you're talking to or leaning on.
But women do tend to have many more friends, and
I think it's really important for both men and women
to talk about their relationships with other people. That is
a common thing. I hear that the men don't have
(21:31):
enough friends. It is, Yeah, it's it's interesting. I once
said to my husband, if you came home and caught
me in bed with anybody, what would your first reaction be, Like?
Who would you call? Meaning who do you consider your
best friend? He said, I would call one of your
friends and say, what the hell is going on? And
I said, okay. So I do notice that a lot
(21:52):
like my friends will say, you know, can't you do
something with somebody else, male or female just to get
some friends? Right? Yeah, just don't lean on me so much.
So much I think for a minute has to do
with ideals around masculinity that I think a lot of
men still sadly have a problem being vulnerable and talking
to their friends about their fears or their anxieties, the
(22:15):
ways they feel like they're failing in life or you know,
things aren't going well, and so they feel like their
wives are going to be more sensitive to it, so
they were inclined to confide in them. But I think
men who can do that. UM, just they're just happier,
They just feel more resilient because they just get more support.
And they also see again the same thing that we're
talking about, that these issues are just part of human nature.
(22:36):
There is no perfect person in perfect marriage out there,
and aspiring to that's going to really make for an
unhappy life. I'm gonna turn the page now and talk
about sex because I want to, um, because I think
obviously it's an integral part of a relationship, but I
think there's sex envy too when it comes to a couple, definitely.
(22:58):
And I experienced something years ago. I was with a
bunch of people having dinner and somebody said, how often
do you and your husband have sex? And I thought
about it and I said, I don't like four times
a week, maybe more for on vacation. And this was
women I was with. They all kind of gasped and
(23:19):
they got they did, and they got really angry at me.
It wasn't like, oh my god, amazing, It was like
are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And I
was like, no, why is that is that good? And
I thought, oh god, I shouldn't talk about this, you
know what I mean? And I was not bragging. And
from that day on we still get teased by these people,
(23:40):
are you gonna go up sex? You know? And I mean,
I mean borderline bullied, And I thought, wow, what are
they imagining? I'm like, it doesn't mean that we're strapped
to a swing with a bowl of frosting and some feathers,
but it But it was interesting to me that I
saw how angry people got at the idea that they
were not having as much sex. So what do you
(24:02):
see with couples when it comes to sex envy? Yeah,
I think you're absolutely right. I think good question I
often get from couples is are we having enough sex?
We only have sex once a month? Is that bad?
You know, we used to have a lot in the beginning,
we're not having it a lot now. Does that mean
we're on a bad path? That are romances ending? And
you know, my opinion about it as a couple of
(24:22):
therapists is that it's really an issue of how happy
are you. I don't think that there's really any ideal.
I worked with couples and have friends who are couples
who hardly ever have sex, but they have a great
marriages and they're both perfectly happy with that, and that's
not an issue that's probably not as common. I think
more commonly, one person really wants to have it, the
other one doesn't, and so they kind of accommodate that
(24:42):
or accept it. Um. But I think most people have
no idea how much sex other people are having, so
they have these often I think inflated ideas of how
much sex other couples are having, and it can be
something that's really weaponized and it's a problem. Yeah, it's yeah,
we're not it's not fifty shades of gray over here.
But um, and so what what what do you say
(25:06):
to the couples that sort of complain about that If
they're both in sync, it works, right? Is it? Is
it a question of there's one person that feels like
they're not getting enough or they're getting too much? You know?
I always think of the Woody Allen movie Annie Hall,
when there's a split screen and the therapist say to
each of them, how much sex are you having? And
she says all the time, and he says hardly. Ever,
(25:27):
so it was three times a week exactly. Um. Well,
I mean if if the couple is talking about it,
then the issue is sort of For the person who
is feeling rejected sexually or frustrated, Do they worry that
they're unattractive? Do they feel unlove? Do they feel hurt?
How do they translate those feelings into the marriage? Do
(25:49):
they get angry? Do they get critical? Do they withdraw?
For the person who's not being sexual. Is it an
expression of a desire for more distance or boundaries or
maybe it's just ang and hormones and of writing are
the ways that low sexual desire can manifest, So it
has to be part of an overall approach that's kind
of comprehensive to what's going on in the sexual life
(26:11):
of the couple. I think um, I think in movies
and television and books, particular comedies, when you get to
be a certain age, the joke is, you know, we're
in like long night shirts and night hats, you know,
and like there's no sex anymore. But you know, now
we're living much longer, so our sex lives need to
sustain themselves. So would you ever advise any of your
(26:35):
couple of patients if somebody is feeling like they're not
getting as much sexual satisfaction as they like, do you
ever say to the other person, do you just got
to step it up. You may not be in the mood,
but you'll end up having it okay time. Um, I
mean it's harder as a male therapist. Typically it's more
of the woman in the couple that has a lower
(26:57):
sexual desire than the guides. So we're cominly, I see
that there's an issue. So it's it's I have to
be sort of more mindful and thoughtful as a male
therapists to say, well, just do it, you know, yeah, no,
it's it's but yes, I yes, so so it's more
alike helping her think about what kind of the advantages
(27:18):
and the disadvantages. I mean, once it's clear that it's
not an expression of some other underlying complaint about the person,
it's clear that it's not and it's just a matter
of desire. Sometimes it's a matter of education that for
women in particular, kind of the ambient desire that a
lot of men continue to have, uh you know, well
into their forties and fifties, a lot of women describe
(27:40):
not particularly having that and actually needing to have sex
to restimulate that desire. SAW sometimes talk about some of
that research and some of those ideas and see if
there's ways to to think about it in a more
to your point and more kind of a practical strategic point, Like,
you know, if your partner is that much happier if
you do have sex with that much uny happier if
(28:00):
you don't, maybe you can think about it in a
more kind of strategic way rather than purely making it
about win of desire. Right, we'll be right back, and
(28:21):
we're back. I'm going to now turn the page two.
Couples and positivity, meaning you know, we're living longer, so
our marriages are going to be longer. So from your
experience as a couple therapists, what are some of the
things that you not only say to your patients, but
you would say to me here on the podcast. These
(28:42):
are things that I think are helpful for any couple
to sustain a relationship. I think knowing your own character
flaws is important and to work on them. So, for example,
one of my character flaws is I tend to be
kind of more impatient and quick to anger, and so
over the years had to really learn how to manage
that to not say the first thing that comes to
(29:04):
to my mind, my wife does something that was really
irritating or are frustrating, and to learn how to communicate
in a productive, non critical, non blaming, non shaming language.
You know. The marital researcher John Gottman talks about the
importance of avoiding harsh startups, so conversations in the way
that they begin. So if you want to talk to
your partner about something that's really important to you, do
(29:25):
it when you're in an emotional place where you can
say it in a kindly, loving, affectionate way. That's hugely
important being appreciative. It's so easy and long term relationships
to lose sight of all the ways that your partner
is contributing to your life in a positive way. So
I think daily appreciations they don't have to be anything
to do amazing, just daily things that you like, love, admire,
(29:49):
or appreciate in your partner an others. To know their psychology.
If your partners somebody who's very easily rejected or really
easily feels criticized or guilt tripped, to be mindful of that.
That doesn't mean that you say things that bother you. Yes,
So for example, if your partners really sensitive, very fearful
of rechection, you can't necessarily completely protect them from that. Like,
(30:10):
let's say every time you go out with your friends
your partner feels rejected. It doesn't mean you have to
stop going out with your friends, in fact, it would
probably be a mistake to do it, but it may
mean that you have to spend a little bit of
extra time empathizing with why your partner feels that way,
either when you're leaving or when you're coming back, and
not suggesting that somebody engage in some super long drawn
(30:32):
out thing, because that would be unfair to ask a
one's partner, but to just be mindful of how your
behavior really impacts that person. Similarly, if your partner really
feels easily criticized, that doesn't mean that you can't have
any complaints, but it may mean that you have to
to preface your complainants with a bunch of positives that
you know. I think you're a great partner, I think
you're a great parent. However, this is something that's been
(30:54):
bothering me. Put it into eye statements. You know, when
you do X, I feel why rather than you're such
a selfish, terrible person. I think that's a very it's
an important point, but I think some couples are too
conflict avoidant, and marriages can end, and long term relationships
can end from a death by a thousand cuts by
(31:15):
people not saying enough of what bothers them. So I
really encourage part of what I do is a couple
of therapists. Let's just get it all out on the table.
I will help you say it attack the way, but
I want you to be as bluntly honest as you
can possibly be, because those are usually the reasons that
marriages end. Is because people aren't being direct enough about
what they dislike or want the other partner to change.
(31:37):
That doesn't mean that the partner is going to change,
but at least it's out into the open. It provides
an opportunity. And finally, and related to that, is that
I think good relationships require fifty self interest or self
centeredness and total dedication to their partner. And if you're
too self centered, then you'll burn out your partner. But
(31:58):
if you're too selfless, bring yourself out. So I think
a good balance at both of those are critically important.
You know, I remember a few years ago the New
York Times ran a piece about what you were saying
about appreciation and they said for seven days. Each day,
you know, do this thing, and one was hold your
partner's hand. The second day was say one nice thing
(32:20):
to them. And my husband and I did it just
for fun. I mean it was the smallest things, but
it actually worked. And you forget when you've been married
for a long time to take your partner's hand or
to kiss them for no reason, right, And so sometimes
it comes down to the smallest, most fundamental things that
you lose sight of over time. So absolutely, yeah, the
(32:41):
smallest seemingly inconsequential things can actually have a lot of
power and a lot of value and a lot of meaning.
And yeah, you might think, oh, they well, they know
they know I love them, they know I think I'm attractive, whatever,
but they actually might not. And even if they do know,
it still feels good. It's just an expression of affection,
which who doesn't want that some level. Yeah, I mean
even sexually. Again, we're not going to bring back the
(33:03):
swing and the feathers, but there is something to even
mixing that up in in a tiniest way, you know.
For instance, like you were saying, if you're a woman
making the first move that night unexpectedly in a different room,
or you know, if the kids aren't hard, whatever it is,
those things actually can go a long way. Yeah. No,
(33:24):
I think you're reising an important point that some degree
of variation and variety really can be the specify. But
it doesn't mean that every single night or what are
we going to do differently for having yeah? Oh god, yeah,
the exhausting Yeah, yeah, I'm out. Yeah, but I think
you're earlier point that a lot of it's just kind
(33:44):
of mundane and every day and you know, it's not
like every time is going to be amazing and incredibly
exciting and world transforming. It's just sometimes you just have
sex and it's over and you probably feel closer and great.
So what I'm hearing is connection, connection, exactly in all
its various forms. Yes, exactly. I think that's that's a
really great way of summarizing all of this. Yeah, because
(34:07):
disconnection can really feel hurtful and alienating. I mean, some
people people have very different appetites for connection. It's the
other part. Some people love it and thrive on it.
Other people want more distance, f more isolation and the like.
So that's also has to be something that's worked out
in a couple. But if you disconnect, you lose battery
and then you've got no power. Okay, So I've asked
(34:39):
you a million questions. Now it is your time, Dr
Coleman to ask me anything you want. Okay, you already
know how many times I have sex a week, so
you don't can ask that question. And I am impressed
beyond words. I'm not angry. I'm just impressed. Well, I'm
curious if you have any kind of a daily habit
that you do the it maintains your happiness or well
(35:01):
being or mental health or that kind of thing. That's
a great question. Um. I have a recent one which
I discovered during COVID, which was I wasn't really exercising
on a regular basis. In fact, I was that huge
statistic that was eating and baking bread every day during COVID. Yeah. Yeah.
(35:24):
The funny thing is that most men worked out during COVID.
They used that time to get in shape. And most women,
this is real data, just ate themselves today, you know,
they were just like anyway, So I have this hound dog,
this rescue dog, and I started walking with him during COVID,
like two and a half hour walks, which I never
(35:46):
had that kind of time before, and I found it
to be so therapeutic, Like for my head, it didn't
even matter to me that I was maybe losing weight
or and getting in better shape. I started writing in
the notes of my iPhone because I would have ideas
for a TV show or thought or oh I haven't
touched based with this person. And now I've made it
(36:08):
part of my routine. I have to get up really early,
but I do it every day, and when I miss it,
um it has to be severe weather or I have
to be somewhere early. I really miss it. And I
don't miss it again for any kind of in an
ego way, like oh my god, my ass is getting flabby.
I miss it because it's the one time a day
(36:28):
that my head can really breathe, you know, and I'm
not bombarded by emails and people and kids and everything else.
So that has been a huge thing. What about for you, No,
it's the exact same. Yeah, well yeah, I got on
a daily run for thirty minutes rain of shine, and
it's the one thing that if I do it, I
can check the box that you know that that's gonna
(36:50):
maximize my probability of a good day. It's not going
to guarantee it, but it's definitely going to increase the
probability of it. So it's interesting that you have the
same discovery. Yeah, at least it will start. Well, whatever
happens to the rest of the day, you know, fate.
Thank you so much, Dr Coleman. This has been such
a pleasure to talk to you about all of this. Oh,
thank you for me too. So I think I'm going
(37:14):
to quit couple envy to social media because I think
that when we see a couple and we think, wow,
they really have it all, it is very curated, just
like social media, because we are seeing that couple in
magazines maybe or if we know them, we're seeing them
at a gathering where they're maybe holding hands or they're
(37:37):
displaying their quote unquote happy situation. We're not getting to
see them in a fight. We're not seeing her sleeping
on the couch because he's snoring. We are not seeing
her bleaching his underwear for obvious reasons. We're not seeing
him having to take a walk because she's nagging him consistently.
We're only seeing this picture perfect scene. So the next
(38:00):
time you see a couple and you think, oh, hashtag
couple goals, just remember you are only seeing the beauty,
you are not seeing the beast. Thank you for listening
to Go Ask Alli. As always, check out our show notes,
(38:23):
be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and
follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e
Wentworth and on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Now.
If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest
a guest or a topic to dig into, I'd love
to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways
to do it. You can call or text me at
three to three three six four six three five six,
(38:44):
or you can email a voice memo right from your
phone to Go Ask Alli podcast at gmail dot com.
If you leave a question, you just might hear it.
I'm Go Ask Alli. Go Ask Gali is a production
of Shondaland Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. For
(39:05):
more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio as a stand
up comedian, of which I am not. I tried. It's hilarious.
I've been your fan forever. Hey, you know I should
say right now, I'm married, so I'm off the table.
We can do weekends. Get your bullshit detector and get
(00:21):
it honed. Are you mad about something? Go out and
seek people who are mad about related things, and also
listen to them if part of what they're mad about
is you. You actually look for those little colonels of hope. Yeah,
well that's that's a good stuff. I think it is
a good stuff, and I think we need a good stuff.
Always Welcome to Go ask Allie. I'm Ali Wentworth and
(00:45):
this season I'm digging into everything I can get my
hands on. I'm just peeling back the layers and getting dirty.
And speaking of getting dirty, this episode is about couple envy.
I think everyone's experienced it at one weight in their life.
I remember I was living in Los Angeles. I was
a single young girl driving her Ford Fiesta and I
(01:09):
had these friends that were married and they were considered
quote unquote the golden couple. They were both successful actors,
and they lived in a fabulous house, and they had
the perfect rescue dogs, and everything they did I thought
was perfect. They're so in love, they balanced each other out.
(01:30):
They exude success in every sense of the word. And
idolized them. And I remember when they got divorced, it
shook everybody because we all thought they're the golden couple.
How could they be getting divorced. That's who we compared
everything too. So I'm sort of fascinated with this idea
of couple envy, and I have a perfect guest to
(01:52):
discuss this with me. His name is Dr Joshua Coleman.
Joshua Coleman is a psychologist, off third and Senior Fellow
with the Council and Contemporary Families, a non partisan organization
dedicated to providing the press in public with the latest
research about American families. Dr Coleman has appeared on numerous
news programs and TV shows ranging from Sesame Street to
(02:18):
He's written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Psychology Today,
Huffington Post, and Yes many more. Dr Coleman is the
author of four books, including the Rules of Estrangement, Why
Adult Children Cut Ties, and how to heal the conflict. Hello.
Dr Coleman, Hello, thank you so much for being here.
You know, I discovered you because I read the Atlantic
(02:41):
magazine and I read an article you wrote about couple envy,
which I've always found a very fascinating subject because I
think everybody's had a version of that, you know, where
there's been another couple in their life that they think,
oh my gosh, they have everything, They're so perfect, they're
so happy. The people that I've sort of had those
(03:03):
experiences with all ended up getting divorced. And it is
the people that that when they were dating, I went, oh,
this is a nightmare. They've been married for a hundred
and fifty years. So right, So talk to me just
a little bit about couple envy in psychological terms and
things that you deal with. Sure, I think it's human nature.
I think we all look at other couples both to
(03:26):
measure how we fit in. Humans are very status conscious.
So part of our status is, you know, did I
marry the right person? Should I be in a better relationship?
And I still I settle? Could I be even happier?
So one of the ways that we make that determination
was by looking at other couples and seeing how they
do it. But as there's so many things that are
part of our human nature, they could also create enormous unhappiness.
(03:49):
They can cause us to idealize, to your point, couples
that really shouldn't be idea as to a kind of
presenting themselves in a more idealized fashion than it really exists.
It can also perpet you wait, a myth about romantic
relationships that you know, if you just get the right person,
it's all going to work out well, and hides the
fact that most really all long term relationships have periods
(04:11):
of crisis and despair even and and so the problem
with idealizing other couples is that you're not really seeing
the real them. It's like looking at an Instagram post. Yeah,
I think that that's sort of our culture in general.
We perpetuate these romantic comedies and romantic movies, and you know,
romantic novels sell probably bigger than any other book in
(04:33):
the world. I'm just making that up right, But I
just want to sound smart. But um, but my point
is we love romance, particularly are on the French too,
but we love romance, and so it's very easy to
get sucked into that hole of like, oh, this is
what it should look like like, you said, And so
my husband sitting on the couch eating potato chips, he
(04:55):
doesn't look like you. Grant. You know, you start to
and I correct me if I wrong. I think what
we do then is not look at our relationship as
a whole, but we start nitpicking our partner. He's not
good enough, he's not sexy enough, he's not smart enough. Right.
It's almost like we wish that we could kind of
just combine all the qualities of our best friends spouses
(05:16):
are our best friends, and combine them into one perfect partner,
and you know, the realities You might envy some other
couple that, oh, they're so adventurous together, they last so
well together. If I was somebody like that, I'd be happier.
And maybe you could be with somebody who's funnier or sexier,
or more intellectual or any of those things. But then
you'd also have to leave the things that your partner
(05:37):
currently does contribute to the relationship. So I think there's
a lot of ways that we can quickly forget all
the assets of the positive qualities that our partner brings
to our lives. Have you spoken to a lot of
couples who one of them maybe went off it had
an affair, but came back because of this reason. They
thought that this woman or this man was gonna make
(05:58):
it all better, and it's you know, in the superfici
a level will be what I've been dreaming of, and
then they realize, oh my gosh, this person is not
she is horrible gas and she doesn't read the New
York Times and whatever it is right or you know,
even even more telling is that's really high percentage of
people who leave their marriages for their romantic love interests
(06:20):
in their context of an affair, even a long term affair.
Most of those marriages and in divorce because part of
the value of an affair is to get the prolonged
energy of the romantic because you're not dealing with reality.
You can have the best of the other person, but
you're not having to raise kids with them, or talk
about budgeting or you know, bills or housework any of
(06:40):
the other things that create ongoing stress and relationship. So
it's really easy to imagine that if I just find
the right person, and part of that is really our
own denial and naivety about how much how much our
own personalities, our own impatience or character flaws or anger
issues or whatever our inadequacies are, how we contribute to
(07:00):
our own unhappiness with that. Yeah, I wouldn't know what
that is, because I would so good. Our spouses aren't
here to defend themselves. Um. You know, I I think
about before I was married, and I was married late
in my mid thirties, I dated what I idealized, meaning
(07:23):
I dated the French director, I dated the British actor,
And so when I finally met my husband, I knew
what that was, you know what I mean, Like, I
don't meet people in my life and I go, God,
I wonder what that would have been like. And I
wonder if people who have not had a lot of
experiences or dated a variety of people, if they got
(07:47):
into a relationship so early on that they have a
tendency to idealize other relationships more because they don't have
any reference. Absolutely and statistically, the younger you are when
you marry, the more probable the likelihood is of your
getting divorced. So the later you marry, and there's other
things as well, the later you marry, the more educated
(08:09):
you are. The more financially successful you are, the better
the chances are of your having a longer term successful marriage.
But but you're absolutely right that not having kind of
a pool of people to compare the relationship to in
your partner too is really problematic. I mean, I was
married and divorced in my twenties, and I met my
second and current wife have many years in my mid thirties,
(08:31):
and it was helpful to say, you didn't say my
final wife, my final wife, I'm I'm going to go
on right my final thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that prompt. So,
but having that experience of having been divorced, particularly having
been divorced with a child, which I wouldn't wish anybody,
(08:52):
and then getting remarried and having more children, that also
provides a certain kind of sobriety about what real life
looks like. And so having all those years prior to
my second encourage and forever marriage did provide me with
kind of a pool of people to to compare it
to in ways that was has been really useful over
the years. Yeah, I think that when you're young, not
only do you maybe idealized potential partners, but when you're young,
(09:16):
you do idealize what you think a relationship is going
to look like. You want it to be the fairytale version,
you know, And so people get shocked and astounded when
they realized that, oh that he doesn't pick up his clothes,
or he does this, or he does that. And then
(09:37):
I think they throw in the towel too early because
of that, because of this kind of couple envy and
idealism when it comes to what a marriage is supposed
to look like. Now, I think that's absolutely right. You know,
therapists talk about the three stages of marriage versus infatuation,
which is really what the whole rom com novel and
movies predicated upon. You just meet the right person and
(09:59):
everything just works. Then there's a period of disillusion which
happens after the period of infatuation, whereas off for you're
kind of like, oh, this person isn't perfect. You both
stop being so perfect for the other. You start your
own character flaws reveal, uh, their character flaws revealed. Conflict occurs,
and you either get good at managing conflict and working
(10:21):
through the conflict or you break up. And if you
don't break up and you learn how to work through
the conflict and learn how to grieve that this is
not going to be the perfect prince charming and princess marriage,
that that conflict and difficulties is just part of the picture.
Then you go on too mature love, which really incorporates
that that your partner isn't perfect, that they have flaws
just like everybody else does, but so do you, and
(10:42):
all an enormous value can come from that. One of
the things I noticed, particularly now with social media is
this kind of obsession with the perfect couple. And what
I mean by that is, you know, you'll see a
celebrity couple on social media and fans will hashtag goals,
you know, all that kind of stuff. And even to
(11:04):
myself and my husband, a few people have said, during
the course of our marriage, which is past twenty years now,
um oh, I just you know, I just want to
have a marriage like yours, And I go, don't say that,
you know what I mean? And it's not it's not
a slight to my husband, but it's like, no, it's
we're sitting at a dinner in a really nice French
restaurant and we're holding each other's hand because we're in
(11:25):
a good mood, you know, but this is don't let
this fool you. But I make a joke about it
all the time, and because I don't like people to
look at us through that lens at all, you know,
because then I think are reperpetuating something that isn't true
right now, I think we do a disservice to other
couples if you do perpetuate the myth that you have
it all together. I mean, my wife and have a
(11:47):
very strong marriage, and that they were numerous times in
the early years of our raising children that we came
very close to breaking up, and it was really only
because neither of us wanted to be divorced parents that
we hung there, and then we eventually figured out how
to work it out. And now we have a really
strong marriage, Which doesn't mean we never fight and we're
free of conflict. It just means that that the significant
(12:09):
issues that really were incredibly challenging in the first part
of the marriage are far less challenging and more in
hand at this point. Yeah. I was thinking earlier today
about magazine sales and how kind of corporate America feeds
on this notion, And I was thinking about years ago
when Brad Pitt was doing this movie with Angelina Jolie
(12:31):
and his marriage with Jennifer Aniston broke up, and I
remember reading that that triangle sold more magazines in the
history of magazines, and I even remember people were discussing
it like they knew them, you know what I mean,
Like I can't believe he left jan they were perfect
and you know, or of course he left Jen look
at her, you know. And I remember thinking, this is ludicrous.
(12:54):
We're having discussions about people we don't know. But the
next layer of that is is, wait a minute. They
encompass what I thought was the perfect relationship, and so
if they're not together, then what does that say about mine?
Right exactly? It makes sure worried that yours is more fragile.
There's an interesting study done about about that. NT show
(13:15):
that you can conclude positive things or negative things about
a couple that's either doing better or worse than you.
If a couple is doing better than you, if your
state of mind is well, we can aspire to that
we could be even better. Or you could look at
a couple is worse than doing worse than you and think, well,
thank god, we're not them. So it really depends a
lot on your mindset and kind of how you're thinking
about your own relationship and where you want to go
(13:36):
with it. But one of the things I want to
emphasize is that some people just aren't happy with anybody.
I mean, I see this a lot in my practice.
They're just they're not going to be happy with anybody
because they're either to hurt from their own childhood issues,
they've been too disappointed in life their expectations about what
somebody else can reasonably repair from their own childhood hurts
and traumas, and so they end up sending away perfectly
(13:59):
good partners or not valuing all the great ways that
their partner does contribute to their lives. Yes, I have
a few friends like that. Who you know, People say, well,
why don't you set her up? She's beautiful, she's smart,
she's successful, And I go, yeah, that's great on paper,
Yeah exactly. So, I mean the on paper stuff never
(14:20):
never works. In my opinion, No, it doesn't work. And
that's that's the problem with the early part of the infatuation.
As everybody's on best behavior, they're consciously and unconsciously kind
of tailoring their own personalities to what that other person needs.
You know, the person said, oh, my last boyfriend never
communicated about their feelings. The guys probably going to communicate
a lot about his feelings, even if he's not a
(14:43):
great communicator. But once that period of idealization and infatuation
whereas off, then the real self emerges and then it's
a different story. So those are kind of infatuation addicts. Yeah,
as soon as that juice is run out, they kind
of move on to the next thing. Exactly. Yeah, they're done.
And that's why I think many marriages when that that
(15:03):
kind of infatuation phases over, they go, oh, I guess
we're not in love anymore because my arm pits aren't sweating,
my heart isn't beating hard. But that's really just because
it's turning into mature love. If it has all the
scaffolding it needs and it's time for a short break, great,
(15:31):
let's get back to it one of the things, and
tell me what you think about this. One of the
things I've learned in my old age is that women
have a tendency now that we let our guard down,
we're really honest with each other. And I found that
to be incredibly therapeutic, not only for me, but for
the other women. Um so, I I know that you've
(15:53):
talked about when groups of people have gotten together, Like
if you had a bunch of married couples that got
together and started really discussing why they look at other
people and are envious, they start to realize, oh, this
is common. Correct, absolutely, And that's what's valuable about having
close friends that you can confide in. And I heard
(16:14):
my wife the other day on the phone comparing notes
with one of her best friends about who had the
sloppiest husband. I was like, I thought, one, that's therapeutic
for you, dear, but but it actually is good for
the marriage because you know, they can they can kind
of bond around that they can see that they're not
alone in it, and you know, for friends and said, oh,
my husband's just so neat, he's perfect in every way.
(16:35):
I mean, she would have probably come home and been
mad at me. And so having close friends that you
can confide in here with their trials and tribulations are
is really really important and useful. Yeah, because you you
find yourself saying you think that's bad dot dot dot
Yeah exactly. And also I think what you something you
wrote once was that otherwise if everybody puts on this facade,
(16:59):
you come um and weaponize it towards your mate because
you're not connected the way they are or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly,
you're not sexual enough, you're not fun enough, you're not
adventurous enough, if you're not communicative enough like my best
friend's husband or wife is. And if you would only
be like that, I would be happy. And yeah, that
can really be a serious problem. But people do use that,
(17:21):
they do weaponize it. They do. I mean, I'm I'm
guilty of it. I've said to my husband, oh my god,
you know what so and so did. He took her
to Paris for her birthday. That's amazing. Anyway, thank you
for the card. Um. And I actually found that with
my daughters. There was one Mother's Day years ago when
they were young. Um, it was Mother's Day and nothing happened.
(17:46):
It was a non day. And I finally told my
husband aside, and I said, it's Mother's Day, but you're
the one that has to show them. And I don't
care about Mother's Day. What I want to teach them
is to think about others to give, you know, And
I said they should write me a card or paint
me a picture or something, and he didn't realize it
(18:07):
was sort of his responsibility, and they ran to CBS.
I got a carnation and some post it's that said
I love you, mommy, and you're golden. Yeah, And I
realized that I had two choices. I could be really
angry at him and the kids and mope around and
say like, you know, it's Mother's Day and you know
Sarah got two dozen roses and and her kids brought
(18:31):
her breakfast in bed. Or I can say, hey, this
has been a big family fail, and I'm going to
explain to you why so that next Mother's Day we're
not gonna have this problem. And it was very effective.
That's good, and I think it's a good way to
use kind of these um comparisons. Is a teachable moment
and sort of assume good intentions in your partner and
not treated as some huge character flower character fail and
(18:54):
their parton show them that what's meaningful to you about
it and using non critical language. And it sounds like
you did a good job of of doing that. And
he was able to respond. I mean, he didn't go
all the way, but he went far enough for you
to feel like he was taking it seriously. He went
to CBS, which was nice, that's pretty far. Well, it's
a mile. Um. But I found that in my marriage
(19:17):
it is the communication because I found many times that
my husband would say I didn't know what to do.
I was scared, you know. So every year now my birthday,
he'll say, what do you want for your birthday? Because
I don't want to make a mistake, so just tell me.
And I don't say, what do you mean, I don't
want anything? Stop it. He goes, you do want stuff?
And please don't make me guess, Please don't put me
(19:39):
through this. But um, I want to go back to
the talking with the friends because he is not my
best friend. And I think in marriage it's okay to
say my mate is not my best friend, because I
used to see it in movies like oh my god,
he's my best we're best friends. And I was like,
I don't I think we're best friends, you know. And
(20:02):
I realized that because a lot of the stuff that
me and my girlfriends like to chew on, my husband doesn't.
If somebody's getting a divorce, I want to talk about
that for three days straight. Why why are they get
a divorced whereas my husband's like, oh, that's so sad,
and that's it. So I realized, oh, why put that
pressure on my partner when there are people that will
(20:24):
chew on this for three days with me. You know,
my female and male friends are providing such a great service.
And so a lot of times people say what kind
of marital advice do you have, and I say, don't
go into marriage thinking oh, this is my everything. I
don't need anybody else, because you're really setting them up
for a fall. Yeah. I think this idea that that
(20:46):
one partner should be able to fulfill all of your needs,
your intellectual needs, you need for humor, for play, for adventure,
for venting, for compassion. It really Britain's marriage and that's
why people who have more friends tend to do that
are in marriage. You're not expecting that person to fulfill
every need. The interesting thing that is that for most
and men, their wives or romantic partners are their best friend,
(21:09):
if not their only friend. And so sometimes I hear
women complaining about the fact that kind of like, you know,
can you kind of get some other friends and I'm
not the only person that you're talking to or leaning on.
But women do tend to have many more friends, and
I think it's really important for both men and women
to talk about their relationships with other people. That is
a common thing. I hear that the men don't have
(21:31):
enough friends. It is, Yeah, it's it's interesting. I once
said to my husband, if you came home and caught
me in bed with anybody, what would your first reaction be, Like?
Who would you call? Meaning who do you consider your
best friend? He said, I would call one of your
friends and say, what the hell is going on? And
I said, okay. So I do notice that a lot
(21:52):
like my friends will say, you know, can't you do
something with somebody else, male or female just to get
some friends? Right? Yeah, just don't lean on me so much.
So much I think for a minute has to do
with ideals around masculinity that I think a lot of
men still sadly have a problem being vulnerable and talking
to their friends about their fears or their anxieties, the
(22:15):
ways they feel like they're failing in life or you know,
things aren't going well, and so they feel like their
wives are going to be more sensitive to it, so
they were inclined to confide in them. But I think
men who can do that. UM, just they're just happier,
They just feel more resilient because they just get more support.
And they also see again the same thing that we're
talking about, that these issues are just part of human nature.
(22:36):
There is no perfect person in perfect marriage out there,
and aspiring to that's going to really make for an
unhappy life. I'm gonna turn the page now and talk
about sex because I want to, um, because I think
obviously it's an integral part of a relationship, but I
think there's sex envy too when it comes to a couple, definitely.
(22:58):
And I experienced something years ago. I was with a
bunch of people having dinner and somebody said, how often
do you and your husband have sex? And I thought
about it and I said, I don't like four times
a week, maybe more for on vacation. And this was
women I was with. They all kind of gasped and
(23:19):
they got they did, and they got really angry at me.
It wasn't like, oh my god, amazing, It was like
are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And I
was like, no, why is that is that good? And
I thought, oh god, I shouldn't talk about this, you
know what I mean? And I was not bragging. And
from that day on we still get teased by these people,
(23:40):
are you gonna go up sex? You know? And I mean,
I mean borderline bullied, And I thought, wow, what are
they imagining? I'm like, it doesn't mean that we're strapped
to a swing with a bowl of frosting and some feathers,
but it But it was interesting to me that I
saw how angry people got at the idea that they
were not having as much sex. So what do you
(24:02):
see with couples when it comes to sex envy? Yeah,
I think you're absolutely right. I think good question I
often get from couples is are we having enough sex?
We only have sex once a month? Is that bad?
You know, we used to have a lot in the beginning,
we're not having it a lot now. Does that mean
we're on a bad path? That are romances ending? And
you know, my opinion about it as a couple of
(24:22):
therapists is that it's really an issue of how happy
are you. I don't think that there's really any ideal.
I worked with couples and have friends who are couples
who hardly ever have sex, but they have a great
marriages and they're both perfectly happy with that, and that's
not an issue that's probably not as common. I think
more commonly, one person really wants to have it, the
other one doesn't, and so they kind of accommodate that
(24:42):
or accept it. Um. But I think most people have
no idea how much sex other people are having, so
they have these often I think inflated ideas of how
much sex other couples are having, and it can be
something that's really weaponized and it's a problem. Yeah, it's yeah,
we're not it's not fifty shades of gray over here.
But um, and so what what what do you say
(25:06):
to the couples that sort of complain about that If
they're both in sync, it works, right? Is it? Is
it a question of there's one person that feels like
they're not getting enough or they're getting too much? You know?
I always think of the Woody Allen movie Annie Hall,
when there's a split screen and the therapist say to
each of them, how much sex are you having? And
she says all the time, and he says hardly. Ever,
(25:27):
so it was three times a week exactly. Um. Well,
I mean if if the couple is talking about it,
then the issue is sort of For the person who
is feeling rejected sexually or frustrated, Do they worry that
they're unattractive? Do they feel unlove? Do they feel hurt?
How do they translate those feelings into the marriage? Do
(25:49):
they get angry? Do they get critical? Do they withdraw?
For the person who's not being sexual. Is it an
expression of a desire for more distance or boundaries or
maybe it's just ang and hormones and of writing are
the ways that low sexual desire can manifest, So it
has to be part of an overall approach that's kind
of comprehensive to what's going on in the sexual life
(26:11):
of the couple. I think um, I think in movies
and television and books, particular comedies, when you get to
be a certain age, the joke is, you know, we're
in like long night shirts and night hats, you know,
and like there's no sex anymore. But you know, now
we're living much longer, so our sex lives need to
sustain themselves. So would you ever advise any of your
(26:35):
couple of patients if somebody is feeling like they're not
getting as much sexual satisfaction as they like, do you
ever say to the other person, do you just got
to step it up. You may not be in the mood,
but you'll end up having it okay time. Um, I
mean it's harder as a male therapist. Typically it's more
of the woman in the couple that has a lower
(26:57):
sexual desire than the guides. So we're cominly, I see
that there's an issue. So it's it's I have to
be sort of more mindful and thoughtful as a male
therapists to say, well, just do it, you know, yeah, no,
it's it's but yes, I yes, so so it's more
alike helping her think about what kind of the advantages
(27:18):
and the disadvantages. I mean, once it's clear that it's
not an expression of some other underlying complaint about the person,
it's clear that it's not and it's just a matter
of desire. Sometimes it's a matter of education that for
women in particular, kind of the ambient desire that a
lot of men continue to have, uh you know, well
into their forties and fifties, a lot of women describe
(27:40):
not particularly having that and actually needing to have sex
to restimulate that desire. SAW sometimes talk about some of
that research and some of those ideas and see if
there's ways to to think about it in a more
to your point and more kind of a practical strategic point, Like,
you know, if your partner is that much happier if
you do have sex with that much uny happier if
(28:00):
you don't, maybe you can think about it in a
more kind of strategic way rather than purely making it
about win of desire. Right, we'll be right back, and
(28:21):
we're back. I'm going to now turn the page two.
Couples and positivity, meaning you know, we're living longer, so
our marriages are going to be longer. So from your
experience as a couple therapists, what are some of the
things that you not only say to your patients, but
you would say to me here on the podcast. These
(28:42):
are things that I think are helpful for any couple
to sustain a relationship. I think knowing your own character
flaws is important and to work on them. So, for example,
one of my character flaws is I tend to be
kind of more impatient and quick to anger, and so
over the years had to really learn how to manage
that to not say the first thing that comes to
(29:04):
to my mind, my wife does something that was really
irritating or are frustrating, and to learn how to communicate
in a productive, non critical, non blaming, non shaming language.
You know. The marital researcher John Gottman talks about the
importance of avoiding harsh startups, so conversations in the way
that they begin. So if you want to talk to
your partner about something that's really important to you, do
(29:25):
it when you're in an emotional place where you can
say it in a kindly, loving, affectionate way. That's hugely
important being appreciative. It's so easy and long term relationships
to lose sight of all the ways that your partner
is contributing to your life in a positive way. So
I think daily appreciations they don't have to be anything
to do amazing, just daily things that you like, love, admire,
(29:49):
or appreciate in your partner an others. To know their psychology.
If your partners somebody who's very easily rejected or really
easily feels criticized or guilt tripped, to be mindful of that.
That doesn't mean that you say things that bother you. Yes,
So for example, if your partners really sensitive, very fearful
of rechection, you can't necessarily completely protect them from that. Like,
(30:10):
let's say every time you go out with your friends
your partner feels rejected. It doesn't mean you have to
stop going out with your friends, in fact, it would
probably be a mistake to do it, but it may
mean that you have to spend a little bit of
extra time empathizing with why your partner feels that way,
either when you're leaving or when you're coming back, and
not suggesting that somebody engage in some super long drawn
(30:32):
out thing, because that would be unfair to ask a
one's partner, but to just be mindful of how your
behavior really impacts that person. Similarly, if your partner really
feels easily criticized, that doesn't mean that you can't have
any complaints, but it may mean that you have to
to preface your complainants with a bunch of positives that
you know. I think you're a great partner, I think
you're a great parent. However, this is something that's been
(30:54):
bothering me. Put it into eye statements. You know, when
you do X, I feel why rather than you're such
a selfish, terrible person. I think that's a very it's
an important point, but I think some couples are too
conflict avoidant, and marriages can end, and long term relationships
can end from a death by a thousand cuts by
(31:15):
people not saying enough of what bothers them. So I
really encourage part of what I do is a couple
of therapists. Let's just get it all out on the table.
I will help you say it attack the way, but
I want you to be as bluntly honest as you
can possibly be, because those are usually the reasons that
marriages end. Is because people aren't being direct enough about
what they dislike or want the other partner to change.
(31:37):
That doesn't mean that the partner is going to change,
but at least it's out into the open. It provides
an opportunity. And finally, and related to that, is that
I think good relationships require fifty self interest or self
centeredness and total dedication to their partner. And if you're
too self centered, then you'll burn out your partner. But
(31:58):
if you're too selfless, bring yourself out. So I think
a good balance at both of those are critically important.
You know, I remember a few years ago the New
York Times ran a piece about what you were saying
about appreciation and they said for seven days. Each day,
you know, do this thing, and one was hold your
partner's hand. The second day was say one nice thing
(32:20):
to them. And my husband and I did it just
for fun. I mean it was the smallest things, but
it actually worked. And you forget when you've been married
for a long time to take your partner's hand or
to kiss them for no reason, right, And so sometimes
it comes down to the smallest, most fundamental things that
you lose sight of over time. So absolutely, yeah, the
(32:41):
smallest seemingly inconsequential things can actually have a lot of
power and a lot of value and a lot of meaning.
And yeah, you might think, oh, they well, they know
they know I love them, they know I think I'm attractive, whatever,
but they actually might not. And even if they do know,
it still feels good. It's just an expression of affection,
which who doesn't want that some level. Yeah, I mean
even sexually. Again, we're not going to bring back the
(33:03):
swing and the feathers, but there is something to even
mixing that up in in a tiniest way, you know.
For instance, like you were saying, if you're a woman
making the first move that night unexpectedly in a different room,
or you know, if the kids aren't hard, whatever it is,
those things actually can go a long way. Yeah. No,
(33:24):
I think you're reising an important point that some degree
of variation and variety really can be the specify. But
it doesn't mean that every single night or what are
we going to do differently for having yeah? Oh god, yeah,
the exhausting Yeah, yeah, I'm out. Yeah, but I think
you're earlier point that a lot of it's just kind
(33:44):
of mundane and every day and you know, it's not
like every time is going to be amazing and incredibly
exciting and world transforming. It's just sometimes you just have
sex and it's over and you probably feel closer and great.
So what I'm hearing is connection, connection, exactly in all
its various forms. Yes, exactly. I think that's that's a
really great way of summarizing all of this. Yeah, because
(34:07):
disconnection can really feel hurtful and alienating. I mean, some
people people have very different appetites for connection. It's the
other part. Some people love it and thrive on it.
Other people want more distance, f more isolation and the like.
So that's also has to be something that's worked out
in a couple. But if you disconnect, you lose battery
and then you've got no power. Okay, So I've asked
(34:39):
you a million questions. Now it is your time, Dr
Coleman to ask me anything you want. Okay, you already
know how many times I have sex a week, so
you don't can ask that question. And I am impressed
beyond words. I'm not angry. I'm just impressed. Well, I'm
curious if you have any kind of a daily habit
that you do the it maintains your happiness or well
(35:01):
being or mental health or that kind of thing. That's
a great question. Um. I have a recent one which
I discovered during COVID, which was I wasn't really exercising
on a regular basis. In fact, I was that huge
statistic that was eating and baking bread every day during COVID. Yeah. Yeah.
(35:24):
The funny thing is that most men worked out during COVID.
They used that time to get in shape. And most women,
this is real data, just ate themselves today, you know,
they were just like anyway, So I have this hound dog,
this rescue dog, and I started walking with him during COVID,
like two and a half hour walks, which I never
(35:46):
had that kind of time before, and I found it
to be so therapeutic, Like for my head, it didn't
even matter to me that I was maybe losing weight
or and getting in better shape. I started writing in
the notes of my iPhone because I would have ideas
for a TV show or thought or oh I haven't
touched based with this person. And now I've made it
(36:08):
part of my routine. I have to get up really early,
but I do it every day, and when I miss it,
um it has to be severe weather or I have
to be somewhere early. I really miss it. And I
don't miss it again for any kind of in an
ego way, like oh my god, my ass is getting flabby.
I miss it because it's the one time a day
(36:28):
that my head can really breathe, you know, and I'm
not bombarded by emails and people and kids and everything else.
So that has been a huge thing. What about for you, No,
it's the exact same. Yeah, well yeah, I got on
a daily run for thirty minutes rain of shine, and
it's the one thing that if I do it, I
can check the box that you know that that's gonna
(36:50):
maximize my probability of a good day. It's not going
to guarantee it, but it's definitely going to increase the
probability of it. So it's interesting that you have the
same discovery. Yeah, at least it will start. Well, whatever
happens to the rest of the day, you know, fate.
Thank you so much, Dr Coleman. This has been such
a pleasure to talk to you about all of this. Oh,
thank you for me too. So I think I'm going
(37:14):
to quit couple envy to social media because I think
that when we see a couple and we think, wow,
they really have it all, it is very curated, just
like social media, because we are seeing that couple in
magazines maybe or if we know them, we're seeing them
at a gathering where they're maybe holding hands or they're
(37:37):
displaying their quote unquote happy situation. We're not getting to
see them in a fight. We're not seeing her sleeping
on the couch because he's snoring. We are not seeing
her bleaching his underwear for obvious reasons. We're not seeing
him having to take a walk because she's nagging him consistently.
We're only seeing this picture perfect scene. So the next
(38:00):
time you see a couple and you think, oh, hashtag
couple goals, just remember you are only seeing the beauty,
you are not seeing the beast. Thank you for listening
to Go Ask Alli. As always, check out our show notes,
(38:23):
be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and
follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e
Wentworth and on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Now.
If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest
a guest or a topic to dig into, I'd love
to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways
to do it. You can call or text me at
three to three three six four six three five six,
(38:44):
or you can email a voice memo right from your
phone to Go Ask Alli podcast at gmail dot com.
If you leave a question, you just might hear it.
I'm Go Ask Alli. Go Ask Gali is a production
of Shondaland Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. For
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