March 25, 2021 • 49 mins
What would you do if you went in for a COVID test and walked out with stage 4 lung cancer? Oh, and no symptoms. The unthinkable has happened to author and actress Annabelle Gurwitch. She opens up to Ali about this emotional and life changing rollercoaster. She tells Ali what she has learned about herself, her friends, and her sense of humor throughout the scariest time in any person’s life. //
Annabelle is a New York Times bestselling author. She has published a number of books that include "I See You Made an Effort," and "Wherever You Go, There They Are: Stories About my Family You Might Relate To."
She is a co-host of the podcast “Tiny Victories." Be sure to check out Annabelle's new book, “You’re Leaving When? Adventures in Downward Mobility,” now on Amazon. //
If you have questions or guest suggestions, Ali would love to hear from you. Call or text her at (323) 364-6356. Or email go-ask-ali-podcast-at-gmail.com. (No dashes)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio Hi and Ali
Wentworth And you're listening to Go Ask Alli. Where this
part of the season, I'm asking how do you grow
a healthy relationship with yourself with a spouse, sibling, hell
(00:23):
even your bartender. In this episode, I'm talking about how
to grow relationship with our mortality. My guest is my
friend Annabelle Gerwich, who has an incredible new book out,
You're Leaving When Adventures in Downward Mobility Now. After writing
this book, annabel went to get a COVID test, which
led to a diagnosis of stage four lung cancer. She
(00:45):
has much to say about how she views her life now.
Annabelle is a New York Times bestselling author. She has
published a number of books including I See You Made
An Effort and Wherever You Go, There You Are stories
about my family you might relate to. She's an activist
and actress. She is most recognizable as one of the
original hosts from the previous TBS hit show Dinner in
(01:07):
a Movie. Her other acting credits include Seinfeld, Dexter, Daddy Daycare,
and Melvin Goes to Dinner. Finally, She is a co
host of the podcast Tiny Victories. I've always loved Annabelle's writing,
especially her candor and her ability to find the funding
and even the most serious life altering scenarios. Just don't
expect her to run a marathon. Please enjoy my very
(01:29):
candid conversation with Annabelle Garwich. Let me just start with
this three day podcast because it's people should drink a
lot of coffee because this won't end. But so, you're
divorced and empty nester and a creative person in a pandemic.
You also recently found out that you have staged for
(01:51):
lung cancer, which that's a biggie. Yeah, that's bigger than divorced.
I'm sorry. Yeah. The beginning of this new book of
mine that you're leaving when, which you helped inspire, But
the first line of the book was meant as a satire.
It was the worst of times. It was the worst
(02:11):
of times. That might have been a mistake to write that,
because the thing about the the diagnosis that I got
during COVID was that I don't have symptoms, I don't
feel badly. I just have this terrible, life threatening disease
that I didn't know about which was like when people say, like, oh,
I don't know, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow,
(02:33):
like the bus hit you know, but it's a very
slow moving bus. And it's just something I have to
live with now. So you know, in this season, I'm
dealing with growing relationships and with you, I think it's
about growing a relationship with your mortality, because your whole
book deals with different versions of that of as as
(02:56):
I like to say, the back nine of our lives.
And so I think we're going to start with the
stage four lung cancer because we did and because it
is almost unfathomable to most people. So you had a
consistent cough, am I right? Yeah? But I mean like
it was Ali. It was like, I mean, you, we're
(03:18):
gonna be talking and you're not going to hear me
cough because it's not like I'm coughing all the time.
I mean, I just assumed it was acid reflux. And
Ezra my my college graduate class of COVID kid, they
are a non binary person. Now, I think this is
something that I wrote about in the book about adjusting
(03:40):
when your kid changes gender identification. Just one more adaptation
of of this back nine life. And you know, we
Ezra had come home from college and we had quarantined
and we were just getting a COVID test. And the
really crazy thing is that we went to Okay, now
(04:03):
I'm gonna oh, now you're going to call through the
whole fucking podcast of the whole fucking thing. H we
went through. We we went to Dodger Stadium, our local
like city testing thing. The line was too long. Then
we we were going to go to my g P,
but they weren't doing testing. So the chances of this
(04:23):
even happening, of getting this diagnosis were so slim because
we just ended up at this urgent care where this
doctor talked me into getting an X ray and just
based on the fact that when they before you have
the COVID test, they say do you have any symptoms?
I was like, no, I have a little cough, but
(04:44):
who doesn't you know? And I thought he was you
know when you're at a makeup counter and they give
you the upsell what you really need is the expensive
moisturizer and then they don't stop. So I thought it
was an upsell, and so I agreed to this X
ray just to like, Okay, let's get out of here.
He was just not quitting, you know. I mean we're
(05:06):
at a mini mall next to a trader Joe's. I'm like,
this is I don't I never thought that those people
were actually doctors, like in those urgent cares. I mean,
you know, well, it's l a. They were probably actors too. Well.
Once we went to an urgent care on Halloween for
my kid to like cut their finger, and the doctor
(05:28):
I'm saying that with like air quotes, had a like
a hatchet, like you know, like like a costume with
a hatchet stuck in his head. I mean that's what
I think of urgent care doctors, right. So I mean, anyway,
so get the sex ray. He says, oh, you're fine,
and we go on our way. My car breaks down
on the freeway and then we're in like a zombie
(05:48):
apocalypse movie because Triple A is not coming, and I'm like, wow,
I guess Triple A doesn't come during a pandemic. We're
on the side of the road. The phone rings and
it's the doctor from the urgent care saying I've made
a mistake. You actually have a mass on your lung
(06:11):
Jesus Christ, And on the side of a freeway with
a broken down car and what, well, it depends on
the freeway. What freeway was it? Okay, we're on the
the Foothill Freeway, which is in like it's like we're
on this part where there's nothing. There's just a nothingness there.
(06:32):
So I felt like I was in one of those like, um,
not like a Tarantino movie, like you're something bad's going
to happen at the side of that road. So well
usually it does, by the way, Yes, and luckily that
didn't happen, But no, you just were told you had
a mass on your lungs. Just that. But you know,
then I went through these months of like, maybe it's
(06:53):
a walking pneumonia or something called valley fever, And then
I was convinced and the doctor that I was with
at the time, because we hadn't done a biopsy in
these other further tests, we thought it was maybe that
I was using this facial toner that has castor oil
in it, which can store in your lungs. And I
was like, wouldn't that be just like me, my vanity
(07:14):
has given me an infection. We thought I had an
infection in my But who came up with that ridiculous
aypothesis me, no, but no, but he had said to me,
have you been eating castor oil? And I'm like no.
But then I happened to look at this facial miss
and I saw it had castor oil in it. I mean,
(07:35):
this is this is the thought of a desperate person.
I understand, you're literally clinging, clinging to the vines of life, right,
And so then you know, three months into it, I
get this diagnosis, after this biopsy and all this, and
you know, it's a life changing thing. And I you know, again,
maybe not a good idea in the book. I have
(07:57):
this line and something I've always said, like, oh please,
don't tell me that cancer is a gift or the
universe is doing something for me. But I have taken
this opportunity to ask myself, you know, Okay, how long
am I going to live? So how am I going
to live? How? How am I going to have a
(08:21):
happier life? I mean, just why not? This is just
the way it is. I am alone at home with
cancer and kittens. It's sort of like the worst nightmare
of like Spinster Heaven, you know, And I've embraced it.
I'm like Spinster strong. Yeah, yeah, good, well by the
way your next book should be called Cancer and Kittens
(08:42):
because it's it's dark, but then there's something cute while
kittens are magic. Everybody knows that. Yes, Okay, so what
was the first thing that went through your head? Well,
first of all, it was like the worst of the
worst case of like that phone call was on a
speaker phone in front of Ezra. Right. I never would
(09:04):
have you know, you just want to protect your kid,
and I would have wanted to find a way, but
it was like, oh, just right out there, so that
wasn't a possibility. And then I was, of course just
in this sort of emotional free fall, and I you know,
(09:27):
I was I'm really lucky my sister came out. And
my sister has never seen a problem. She didn't have
a spreadsheet for like, she's a mission driven person and
this is just the kind of mission you know, she
could step into. Because I was just I was a wreck.
I was just going from like course yeah zero to panic.
(09:50):
Meals were falling by that. I just could barely function,
you know. So of course I have to say when
she told me she was coming out, she's said the
three scariest words someone in your family can say to
you you're adopted one way ticket. She had gotten a
(10:13):
one way ticket to come visit that has layers of
well crazy meaning to us. That really scared me because
I'm like, oh, fuck, this this is serious, Like she's
just coming out for possibly forever. But she was like
(10:34):
a Mary Poppins of like my sister's, like a sainted person.
She was getting up at five am, starting running her
business and then cooking for us, and she just gave
this layer, you know, of stability to the household, and
you know, it was life saving and it was hard
for me. And then other friends started helping to of
(10:56):
just calling me, going for a walk with me and
just you know, um, this is really tells you something
about me, Like I don't like to cook, but so
I don't borrow a cup of sugar from my neighbors.
But my neighbors were doing things like leaving a glass
of wine for me in the shrubbery in front of
my house. My doctor said I could have a glass
(11:17):
of wine, and you were like like on lockdown here.
So I would text my neighbor Barbara and say, hey,
what what do you have open tonight? And she would
like not the bottle. I think they were worried about
me A glass and actual just glass of wine sitting
in the shrubbery. I mean, that's amazing, But it was
hard for me to actually accept help, Like I don't
(11:40):
I don't like to be that person. I want to
be the person to rush in and make things more chaotic,
was as it sometimes it happens. But didn't it feel good?
I mean, didn't you feel love and and warmth and
not so alone? Not at first? Not at first. At first,
I just felt just felt like a failure. And if
I could say to anyone any advice, just yet accept it,
(12:02):
just say thank you. You know. I just felt so embarrassed,
like I had failed that I needed help. And also
people say things to you in order to help you,
and it's hard to hear them. More people don't know
what to say, so that becomes a thing, you know,
And you know, in the New York Times, I wrote
(12:24):
about my friend who was just kept wanting me to
make juice and got me this juicer and its like
the loveliest thing. But like I just didn't want one
more thing to have to do, you know. And I
don't want to be someone's cancer warrior. I have a
very very good friend who I held her hand during
(12:45):
a very scary cancer scare in her stomach, and she's
a survivor, but she was bombarded with all that advice
to It was like every day somebody said something out
of some aspirational calendar that you didn't know what to
do with, or you know, people would send her a
kite and be like fly high, you know, just all
this crap. And I said to her, what is it,
(13:08):
you know, honestly, what do you miss? What do you want?
Because she didn't want to tune a cast role and
she didn't want me, you know, crying at her feet
telling her buck Choy is supposed to you know, none
of it. It's hard, you know, it's hard because you
feel like people are meaning so well, and uh, you
don't want to not except that. Once I got over that.
(13:30):
But there was a point where, um my sister, I
think it was two months in and it was kind
of near the time where we decided I was okay
for her to go back to New York. And this
was maybe a sign. She said, Okay, tonight, I'm making
turkey and zucchini loaf. And I went, I said, oh
(13:54):
my god, I am so sorry. I am so sorry.
Oh my god, I would love that. And she's like,
what I said, listen, I have cancer. Do I really
have to have turkey and zucchini loaf? Because that sounds
like a punishment. Can't we just order in sushi? Like
I just want sushi? She was like, well, of course,
(14:14):
but it's so hard to say what you need. And
you know, actually, one of the things that is, you know,
a strategy of coping with this is I have become
a little bit better at saying no, great, you know,
yes of like things that work for me, things that
(14:35):
don't work for me, How I want to spend my time,
how I don't want to spend my time. I think
that's really hard for women. I think that's really hard,
nearly impossible, and I struggle with it every day. I
say yes to everything. I just want to say that
yesterday I drove my child's roommates cat to the vet.
So as I say this, I am not saying I've
(14:56):
got this day completely full of ship, full of ship.
But you love animals, let's put it in that category. Well,
I also I love my kid. So was there anything
anybody said that actually helped following your diagnosis? I did
get some great advice about the cancer thing and things
that people say to you from Caitlin Flanagin, who writes
(15:17):
for the Atlantic. So, Caitlin has had stage four breast
cancer for like seventeen years. It's you know, she's an
amazing person that she has continued to live her life
and she's a mom of two. Anyway, she I called
her near the very beginning because people were telling me
(15:39):
I had to eat raw foods, I had to eat
this rare vegetable. I should go see a psychic surgeon.
I you know, there was one very close friend of
mine set to me before I got the diagnosis. You know,
you know your body better than anyone else. Do you
think you have cancer? Are you really like I do? What? So? Wow?
(16:04):
Well people, but and she said it out of love,
of course, a total love. So Caitlin said to me,
she said, Annabelle, you don't have to eat raw food,
you don't have to juice, you don't have to think
positive thoughts, you don't have to sacrifice a virgin in
a volcano. Go to your doctor's appointments and take the
fucking pills. Just do what they say. And it's just
(16:26):
like freed me to say I'm gonna do this in
a way that you know works for me. I do
feel like a sense of humor is if saving grace,
because it did kick in for me, this sort of
shifting of the mind thing where I used to say, like, gosh,
(16:47):
you know, if I ever get cancer, I don't want
to be the person who you know, she had cancer
and she ran a marathon. Like I want to be
the person who has cancer and doesn't run a marathon.
Like I just like, do I have to work that hard? No,
it's the best excuse not to run a marathon, you know.
But there's this funny thing about we we reward a
(17:08):
certain kind of behavior that we think is laudable. And
I'm not saying it's not great to run a marathon.
Really it's fantastic. But there's like, you know, you can
see and everyone sent me. There's like Ted Ted talks
and I got I got a thousand links to them.
I had cancer, I ran a marathon, and everyone collapse.
(17:30):
If I ever do the talk, I will do the
I had cancer and I tried to live a normal
life every day and I'm sort of a joke I'm
going to not run. But it's proved to be the
thing that I feel has been the most important thing
to me. And it's one of these coping mechanisms of
(17:50):
how do I get through this cancer, how do I
get through this COVID Which has been something that I've
never really liked in my life, which is to really
invest in my quality of daily living. I'm much more
of a person like I. I get excited about a destination.
I love doing a book tour, I love, you know,
performing and doing just but like I have to try
(18:14):
to make every day work on my daily living, like
the daily strategies of living, making that be valuable because
that's where we're at in COVID. All these things that
I realized, I've learned exactly how much of a social
person I really am. In fact, in the book I
write about this that right at the time that COVID hit,
(18:38):
I was really feeling good about the way I designed
my life post marriage. I have a shared writing office
so I can have water cooler conversations. I was doing
these open houses where I'd invite writers to come to
my house. I'd say that my house is open from
seven to ten. There's tea and snacks if you want it,
(19:01):
and it's a quiet room and we just pick a
spot and write, and which is so lovely. I loved
that idea, you know what. It was like this great
way to get myself to work. And it's just one
of my community things. I volunteer at the high school.
And then of course they all fell away, you know
in COVID. So then I started this writer's writing alone
(19:23):
together community like I had in my living room on zoom.
And this is a really nutty thing, but you know,
every day there'd be like, uh, someone from Florida, someone
from Chicago, and friends were telling friends and people on
social media. There was just one thing you're supposed to
just be writing and it really helped. But it was funny.
(19:44):
There was one person I don't know who she is,
I've never met her. She would write and then fold
laundry and I didn't have the heart to say ron zoom. Yeah.
I just started to think of it like it was comforting.
It was like, oh, look it's Dagas the lawn dress
(20:06):
in my on my zoom screen, Like this was one
of my little adaptations. Well isn't it funny how we
all find our little things. There's a lot more to
come after the short break and we're back with more.
(20:28):
Go ask Alley. There must be things that you've sort
of consciously tried to work on to help you get through.
One of the things I've had to really think about
during this time is becoming more flexible. Like I'm a
person who really likes routine, and I like that because
(20:51):
without it, I just kind of just fall apart. Yeah,
Like I liked being and this was I don't know
if you feel this way, Ali, but being an act
tris worked for me in those years of that career.
I actually loved having people tell me where to go
and what to do and what to say. There was
a part of me that just found that so relaxing. Wow,
(21:15):
I was the opposite. I was. I was the girl
who was and maybe that was the writer of me
that was saying, you know, what would be a funnierline,
You know, it would be better if I popped out
from behind the desk and then a little bit of like,
don't tell me what to do? You sound like my mother.
I mean, I'm just a layer of issues, you know what.
Comedy writers and directors don't always enjoy someone who tells
(21:38):
them how their line is going to be. Funnier. That's
not what they'll tell you. One thing, my husband, George Stephanopolis,
is you know, a brilliant man, not known for his comedy.
And very early in our marriage, I said, this is
what you're never allowed to say to me, you know
what would be funnier. So I will never say to you,
(21:59):
do you know what would be a more interesting question?
For bid laden? Like I'll never say kind of that
kind of stuff? Do you like stay in your land? Yes?
And it was very helpful in our marriage that one
thing to not say, yeah, that's just not happening. But
you know, I started to say something about flexibility and
and and and being a rigid person who likes to
stick to a schedule. That has been something it's been
(22:22):
really interesting to note during this time. Like normally I,
in normal world, I do like to have a very
specific schedule. I have found that this COVID isolation, stay
at home thing has required me to be more flexible
(22:44):
and to say like, oh, you know, things stopped working,
like there's different stages of the pandemic. Like you know,
everyone was like sour dough bread, I'm gonna bake sat
I did not get into that, but you know, most
people did did your garden? Did you make a vegetable garden?
I didn't make a vegetable garden, because that would have
been useful. What I did do was I got and
(23:06):
everyone on my block was doing this. It was like
it swept through. We all started making rock gardens. So
I was this is gonna sound a little nuts. I
was going to these like dumpsters in front of people's houses,
getting in, salvaging broken concrete and then mixing them with
rocks in the front yard. As it was like, Mom,
it's like you're you're in a prison quarry. Because I
(23:30):
would just like work on this for hours a day,
and I just want to say, in retrospect now that
I see it, I'm not sure I have improved the
value of my home. That might appeal to somebody. I'm not.
You don't know sure about you don't know it's an aesthetic. Well,
(23:51):
and then I just couldn't stand to see another rock,
like do you know? And then I have this daily
writer zoom, and I was working like ten hours a day,
and I was feeling really productive. And then I hit
a point where and I'm at this point now where
working all day was just depressing me. And so my
new phase of the pandemic that I'm in is I
(24:15):
have to have more playtime. And I really mean like playtimes.
So two of my long time friends I don't want
to say oldest because we're already old enough. We are
taking ukulele lessons on Zoom. They're in New York. Why ukulele? Okay,
(24:35):
we wanted to do something. One of my friends suggest
that we do the accordion. I'm like, that's hard and expensive,
Like accordions are really expensive and it's really hard. So
all three of us like, what can we do? What
do we all have? And we all have kids, so
we all have a ukulele because somehow or another, children
(24:55):
just end up with ukuleles and reporters. I feel like
we have orders, right, So we are okay, we all
have yukes. We meet once a week on Zoom, and
I mean, the thing about it is we suck. We're
never forming a band. By the way, I assumed that, Okay,
I to say anything. I assumed you sucked until you
(25:19):
told me otherwise. At first, we were like we were
just kind of got a little intoxicated, like we're going
to have like a band, We're going to get a band.
We're three Jews and and three Yukes and we're gonna
go out and we're gonna tour. And we were like,
we're gonna learn R E M songs. That was our first.
(25:39):
We're working on You Are My Sunshine and Twinkle Twinkle
It's and that'll take like five years to prob like
it's And you know, one of my friends is that
Jessica heck Too, actually a brilliant actress. She she might
be a little worse than me on this on the Yuk.
I just I don't want to say ay thing you
take pride and saying that publicly. Yes, well, because she's
(26:02):
so accomplished as a performer, and I let's spring her
down a notch. I guess. We just laugh. We laugh,
and we're like the whole world stops. We're playing the youth.
We're together and that you know, because of this diagnosis,
it's really important to catch up with friends, and that's
been a really important thing. There's a sometimes I get
(26:26):
overwhelmed with emotion of like just um, like gratitude of
like oh my god, I love you. We've had all
these memories. I can get very even just talking about it,
like sentimental because you get this kind of diagnosis and
you feel like time is even more precious, right. So, Um,
the thing about the youth class is we're all together,
(26:48):
but we're not talking about our lives. We're not talking
about even just like rehashing the day or things that
are going on. We're just focused on an activity together.
And this focus is relaxing and it's really fun and
it and it doesn't tread into the territory that has
(27:12):
an emotional content to it, So it's just joyful. What
what I'm hearing from you is that, Yeah, what's working
for you right now is to actually do things that
have distraction so that you can actually enjoy life a
little bit and not be in the muck and mire
(27:33):
of of cancer. Yeah, pockets of time that are distinct
from the oh, the issues of the day. And in
some sense, you know, that's that's what's called a liminal space. Right.
And also there are things I can do with people, um,
kinds of engagement that I just really need that. Can
(27:56):
I ask you? You are divorced. You seemed, based on
your book to have a pretty amicable breakup. Has that
changed your relationship with your acts when you got the
cancer diagnosis. I wanna just say in the You're Leaving
When book, it's it's not a divorce book, not at all,
(28:17):
And that's very not at all. Yeah, it's a post,
it's a post, definitely, it's life. And I did that
specifically because first of all, we're not actually divorced yet.
Oh we have been, you know. And the issue was
health insurance. We are still working out are things and
(28:38):
like so many people in this country, it was the
health insurance, uh that has been keeping us together. But
we are we are making this division now. You know.
It's fun in a pandemic go to mediation divorce on
a zoom. It's it's a little nuts. But I didn't
(28:59):
I just didn't want to write about that. I feel
like I need to wait a certain amount of time now.
I wrote about the cancer diagnosis during COVID in the
New York Times because I wanted to do two things.
I wanted to encourage anyone that had any kind of
symptoms to not think of putting off going to the doctor,
which was very smart. And I wanted to also bring
(29:21):
attention to this chronic illness cost in America because there
are going to be long haulers and other people like me.
They've been dealing with these kind of things for a
long time, this issue of how do you afford that?
In America, this is the largest source of bankruptcy is
medical bills. So I wrote that, but I don't usually
(29:41):
write about things for a few years. I want to
process them. And because I'm not actually divorced, and I
just that's actually too emotional for me to write about.
And and it is in some sense. I mean, it
has been as amicable as it can be, but it's hard.
Two decades of marriage. It's really hard. And not just
as you say, as you say in your book, you're
like the show is over. We closed the show, right,
(30:05):
and you know, when this diagnosis came, my X would
would like to be supportive of me. And the interesting
thing I've found is I've had to sort of draw
a line in the sand. Though I don't feel like
it's good for me to be asking too much, really
asking much at all, because that's my past life and
(30:27):
that's not going to be healthy for me. Like, just
that takes a lot of strength. My friend, well, I
just can't. I just can't do it. Are you online
dating at all? Right? Now? That's funny you should mention
that I know, but I went to the online Jewish
(30:48):
virtual speed dating event that's called the Mats of Ball,
And I know there's two kinds of mats of balls.
There's sinkers and floaters. This was definitely a sinker. But
you're open to it. You're open to it, right, you know?
I'm not. I'm not really interested in online dating, so
it's not really for me. But are you open to
(31:10):
pleasure post cancer diagnosis? Can you go there? Can you
be like, you know what, I'm going to take out
the vibrator, I enjoy a little fun today? Or are
you like no, yeah, yeah I I And I wrote
about this because I just felt like and not enough
people were talking about the search for lou Are you
(31:31):
going to vaginal atrophies? Yes, you are, By the way,
I know exactly what you're talking about. And I I
will publicly say that my vagina is still okay and
intact and and getting good use good for you. But
I have friends that complain about pain and dryness and
(31:53):
and so when you talk about the Mona Lisa procedure,
it is something that my gynecologist has tried to push
me on the way every time I get my moulds checked.
They want me to get jubiterm and I'm like, no, no, no,
no no, but you right, so wonderfully visual about issues
(32:15):
with the vagina. But this one procedure, which I think
is supposed to plump it up. So tell me, tell
me about is your vagina awake now, Annabelle, it's right now.
I really don't know how it's doing. I've been thinking
about cancer. But before then, I did do this Mona
Lisa thing, and I'm just gonna trying to find the
(32:36):
right lube at a certain age. That's something I've never
seen in a movie, Like you know, I just love
I mean, I love seeing films with women at a
certain age having sex. But every time I see these movies,
I'm like, where is the moment where they're like, she's
got like an arsenal like I have. Now it's like
(32:58):
I'm preparing for the end of the world loopocalypse. I've
got a stash of lubes, but it wasn't actually working.
So I did sign up for this Mona Lisa thing.
And by the way, wouldn't it be great in an
unmarried woman if Jill Clayburg pulled out a bottle of
coconut oil. Yes, yes, we need to normalize it. Let's
(33:22):
do it. We're yeah, we're gonna We're gonna do it.
We're gonna do well. But part of the thing I,
you know, write about is this like, oh, everybody knows
se alis. You've seen those bathtubs on posters. There's commercials
for a rectile dysfunction, which, by the way, again like, okay,
a rectile dysfunction. It's the butt of jokes Viagra who
(33:45):
came up with the term vaginal atrophy? Like what kind
of punishment is that? It sounds like, you know, my
vagina has fallen and it can't get up. I mean
it's like it's not it's just well worse. Your vagina
is dead. Is it died? Yes, yes, and it's it's horrible.
They could have called it vaginal dysfunction. Would have been better.
(34:07):
Then I'll take. And again, no one had know what
I knew, had talked to me about this, and so
I go, I sign up with my doctor for this.
And in the fertility area there's orchids and couches and families.
I was like they were having picnics. It's like this
happy scene of like beautiful light streaming in and they
(34:32):
I check in for the Mona Lisa, and they send
me to this darkened room with high wingback chairs and
I'm not kidding, black and white photographs of like sand
dunes where the dead vaginas go. And then of course
they call it the Mona Lisa, which is just a
terrible appropriation of great arts. As if Mona Lisa the
(34:55):
only thing she could be sort of smiling about is
that her vagina is working. A again, I mean, it's
all an outrage. It's just talking about it makes me
so angry. And then it was a little uncomfortable, but
you know what, it did work. It did work. It
did work. Are you getting kicked back for this? No? No,
(35:17):
I am not. I should. I should Again, it's expensive
and again it's like it's one of those things that's
so unfair, which is that viagra and sais they have
codes so they can be covered by your insurance. Is
the Mona Lisa covered? Do I even have to ask that?
Of course not. It costs so much more for women.
(35:37):
But it did actually plump it up. And I mean
that's the problem is the vaginal walls get thinner as
you get older, and if you have sex regularly, then
it maintains its tone or it's like working out, you know,
or isn't it like driving an Alfa Romeo, Like if
(35:58):
you leave it in the garage for too long, it
won't start up. But if you drive it a lot, right,
very you know, it requires attention, right, so maintenance, maintenance.
So yeah, so but it actually worked. And so your
your vagina is alive, now alive, and well it's alive,
it's you know, it's yes, yes, it has been resuscitated. Good.
(36:24):
Let's take a quick break. Welcome back with more go
ask Alley. Well, I'm always happy to know that your
vagina is intact. But how is your care been? I
mean what it's what has it been like dealing with
(36:45):
doctors and needing serious care? You know? Uh yeah. One
of the you know, odd things about and the kind
of amazing things about where science is at is um
there's the the medication that I'm taking for the most
part don't have side effects that you can see, and
(37:07):
so like I have my hair. There's a little bit
of hair loss, but I have my hair, and I
have energy. There's some just some odd things about like
some like little rashes or sometimes a little bit of nausea,
but it's really amazing. But there have been moments when
I've found myself saying, well, I'm I'm sorry I don't
look sick enough for you. It's I mean, Jesus, people
(37:31):
have an expectation of how a person with cancer or
a disease looks. There's saying and I'm going to get
it wrong about like you don't know what path someone
has been walking, you know, And that's sort of a
call to empathy, right because when you when you see
a stranger, where you see someone having a hard time,
(37:52):
you don't actually know the circumstances of their life. And
this is what a person living with a chronic disease
can look like. And that's me So people's appearances really
belie what they're going through. And it's also one of
those things of like during COVID people look like they're healthy,
(38:14):
but we don't know and you know, like you can
be asymptomatic. It's it's not a bad thing to remember
on a on a on a level of health that
we don't know what people are going through as also
just you know, emotionally, we don't know what people are
going through. It's going to say mental health too. Yes,
(38:36):
And I've taken that to heart, you know, and I'm
writing about really serious issues, and I take those issues seriously,
you know. Um, I feel like it has been a
saving grace for me, and I want to share those
other people that you know, a sense of humor can
even sustain you. So, like, how how you use your humor?
(39:01):
Like this, you want to hear how I chose my oncologist. Uh,
here's what I did. The first doctor was, on the
face of it, like a very compassionate person, like a
very kind face with kind eyes. And what he said
to me was the exact same diagnosis as the second
(39:26):
doctor and the same protocol, but the way he said it,
he said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry what you have.
We're going to do the best we can for you
for as long as we can. There's no cure for this.
We're just going to do the best we can. And
my sister was there because you know, like I said,
(39:47):
she makes a spreadsheet. She had gone through my medical records,
and she said, my sister is behind in her mammogram
at her call on oscar piece. Should should she be
catching up that right now? And that doctor said, I
don't think we have to worry about that now, oh
my And I'm like, oh my god. And I know
(40:10):
he meant that in a kind way, like why put
her through that? Like what he was saying was we
know the cancer that's going to kill her, and she
was like, oh my god. But he was very kind
about it. So I thought, you know, everyone suggested me
I get a second opinion, and I said, well, why
should I do that, because this is generally known what
(40:34):
I've got and what the you know, situation is. But
people suggested it. So I went to see this doctor
that I heard had the bedside manner of, as someone
put it, an open grave. What this doctor said to
me was, first of all, he gave me the history
of lung cancer like I was writing a science paper
(40:55):
about it. I immediately like, oh, a project. I love
a project, and take notes. I'm a I'm a writer.
And yes, there is no cure for this right now.
Same information, very cut and dried. And then my sister says, well,
my sister is behind in her maverigram nicolinoscopy. What do
you think? And he thought, took a pause, and he said, well,
(41:18):
I want your sister. I'm sitting right there by the way.
I want your sister to be one of my patients,
who is you know, who gets cured of this, so
that she could have the possibility of one day getting
breast cancer. I thought, you know what, that's my guy.
(41:39):
I want the guy who wants me to live long
enough to maybe get breast cancer. Yeah. I just thought, okay,
you know, I mean and like I thought, this is
this is you know, this is pretty funny amidst the
horrible nous of this. And that's when I know my
brain is working. That's when I know that, like, okay,
(41:59):
you know that's a coping mechanism for me. Absolutely. Yeah,
So that was that was how I picked that. Yeah, Annabelle,
I want to we've we've been going since December on
this podcast. I do, but I do want to end
on something that I'm sort of obsessed with from your book,
(42:21):
which is you you became obsessed with this fluffy poof
that you saw in the window of a furniture store
well by the way, which has led to you basically,
what are you lying around naked on like white shag rugs?
And so take us through this journey that gives you
so much pleasure that has ended with you becoming Linus
(42:42):
from Peanuts. Yes, I have a blank ee. Well, okay,
that's a lie. I have a lot of blank ease
now and I fucking love my blank ease And if that,
if I'm lioness, that's that's what I need. And I
recommend it. I highly recommend a blankie. You don't need
to get your chart done, just get a blanket. It's
(43:03):
so comforting. I have a blanket, and George has a blanket,
and we're not allowed to share blankets, but that blankets
pulled up over me the majority of the day and
it's it's so helpful. So the thing was I, you know,
I writing in that chapter about growing up in the
cow gone generation, that cow gone take me away, like
the idea that we were sold that there's something in
(43:25):
that case the bath that will change everything, right, I've
always tried to resist that. And then I step found
myself standing in front of a rochebou Bois showroom and
that's you know, that's that very expensive furniture retailer. And
there's this like iridescent poof and it was like the
(43:48):
color of a marshmallow, but it was glowing, and I
just got obsessed with the idea that that poof could
change my life. If I had that poof, I could
sort of rest my head on it and everything would
be could I just got obsessed. I was visiting it
in that store like a like a petting zoo. I
would go and touch it, But meanwhile it was just
(44:10):
like thousands of dollars, And so I went down the
rabbit hole of going online and ordering lesser, cheap versions
of that of like fluffy pillows. I just decided I
needed softness. I called this like a softness spree, and
I ended up with enough fluffy pillows and soft fuzzy blankets.
(44:32):
It's like there's a herd of alpaca raising in my
living room. The irony is is that during COVID it
has been so comforting, like I need my blankie. I
get it now. Why Lioness was dragging that like we
need comfort like and you know what if that's what
(44:57):
it takes, And then you know, when I got this diagnosis,
I wrote it in New York Times that what I
wanted more than a juicer was a fleecy bathrobe. I
have quite a few now. Fleecy bathrobe started arriving at
my door. And you know what, It's not a cure
(45:21):
for lung cancer, but it really helps. Actually, it really helps.
I believe it. All right, So are you telling me
not to send you a fleece bathrobe? No, sending up
too many Okay, I just want to make I want
to make it clear as we sit here, I'm wearing
hard pants. I'm actually in hard pants. I'm wearing clothes.
(45:42):
I do not wear the bathrobe all day because I could,
and that would that would be the end, you know.
But I really think one of the things I hope
people take from this book is kindness and is accepting
the kindness of strangers. I always thought that was the
worst thing, you know. I read Tennessee Williams blanched terrible
(46:05):
fear of my life to accept the kindness of strangers.
But not only you know, being kind to other people.
But I mean I can be very unkind to myself
and the way that I speak to myself. I can
be very hard and punishing to myself. And kindness to
the self. I think it's really important at this moment
(46:27):
to lower your expectations of yourself just and and if
if you need a blank ee, get it blanky get
to Yeah, Annabelle Growich, I love you so much. I
really thank you for taking this time. Your book is
unbelievably fantastic. I'm going to buy a thousand on Amazon.
(46:49):
Everybody should read it. It is but but you really,
you really walk the line of important issues. But you
do it with comedy, which is, you know, incredibly hard,
and but you do it so well. You are a
master of it. So thank you. Oh it really means
(47:10):
so much, really, does you know? Maybe it's because I'm
fifty and change that I think about mortality so much,
But it is the thing that keeps me up at night.
(47:30):
I really do lie in bed and I think I
don't have that much time left? How how am I
going to spend it? What am I going to do?
How how do I live the best version of my life?
And reading Annabelle's book and speaking to her, it does
make you think you could be going along in your life.
Maybe you're just binge watching Hulu all day and you
(47:52):
get a serious diagnosis, or you find out that your
life is being cut shorter than you expected and you
can't help it. Rack your brain and go, oh my god,
have I done everything I wanted to do? Have I
loved everybody I wanted to love to have. I said
everything I wanted to say. So, you know, as much
as you've read this on every feel good calendar or
(48:13):
heard it from Oprah, you kind of do have to
live your best life every day because you never know
when you're going to get that diagnosis or you'll be
faced by that taxi that's going too fast. Um and
now that I'm so depressed, I suggest everybody go have
a big glass of red wine. Thank you for listening
(48:41):
to Go Ask Ali next week and go ask Ali.
I talked to meditation teacher, author, radio and podcast host
Bob Roth who tries to talk me into calming my brain. Well,
good luck to that, Bob. Be sure to subscribe, rate
and review the podcast and follow me on social media
on Twitter, Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram the Real
(49:04):
Ali Wentworth And if you have questions or guests you'd
like to hear from, I'd love to hear from you.
Call or texted me at three to three four six
three five six or email me Go Ask Gali podcast
at gmail dot com. Go Ask Gali is a production
(49:28):
of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio Hi and Ali
Wentworth And you're listening to Go Ask Alli. Where this
part of the season, I'm asking how do you grow
a healthy relationship with yourself with a spouse, sibling, hell
(00:23):
even your bartender. In this episode, I'm talking about how
to grow relationship with our mortality. My guest is my
friend Annabelle Gerwich, who has an incredible new book out,
You're Leaving When Adventures in Downward Mobility Now. After writing
this book, annabel went to get a COVID test, which
led to a diagnosis of stage four lung cancer. She
(00:45):
has much to say about how she views her life now.
Annabelle is a New York Times bestselling author. She has
published a number of books including I See You Made
An Effort and Wherever You Go, There You Are stories
about my family you might relate to. She's an activist
and actress. She is most recognizable as one of the
original hosts from the previous TBS hit show Dinner in
(01:07):
a Movie. Her other acting credits include Seinfeld, Dexter, Daddy Daycare,
and Melvin Goes to Dinner. Finally, She is a co
host of the podcast Tiny Victories. I've always loved Annabelle's writing,
especially her candor and her ability to find the funding
and even the most serious life altering scenarios. Just don't
expect her to run a marathon. Please enjoy my very
(01:29):
candid conversation with Annabelle Garwich. Let me just start with
this three day podcast because it's people should drink a
lot of coffee because this won't end. But so, you're
divorced and empty nester and a creative person in a pandemic.
You also recently found out that you have staged for
(01:51):
lung cancer, which that's a biggie. Yeah, that's bigger than divorced.
I'm sorry. Yeah. The beginning of this new book of
mine that you're leaving when, which you helped inspire, But
the first line of the book was meant as a satire.
It was the worst of times. It was the worst
(02:11):
of times. That might have been a mistake to write that,
because the thing about the the diagnosis that I got
during COVID was that I don't have symptoms, I don't
feel badly. I just have this terrible, life threatening disease
that I didn't know about which was like when people say, like, oh,
I don't know, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow,
(02:33):
like the bus hit you know, but it's a very
slow moving bus. And it's just something I have to
live with now. So you know, in this season, I'm
dealing with growing relationships and with you, I think it's
about growing a relationship with your mortality, because your whole
book deals with different versions of that of as as
(02:56):
I like to say, the back nine of our lives.
And so I think we're going to start with the
stage four lung cancer because we did and because it
is almost unfathomable to most people. So you had a
consistent cough, am I right? Yeah? But I mean like
it was Ali. It was like, I mean, you, we're
(03:18):
gonna be talking and you're not going to hear me
cough because it's not like I'm coughing all the time.
I mean, I just assumed it was acid reflux. And
Ezra my my college graduate class of COVID kid, they
are a non binary person. Now, I think this is
something that I wrote about in the book about adjusting
(03:40):
when your kid changes gender identification. Just one more adaptation
of of this back nine life. And you know, we
Ezra had come home from college and we had quarantined
and we were just getting a COVID test. And the
really crazy thing is that we went to Okay, now
(04:03):
I'm gonna oh, now you're going to call through the
whole fucking podcast of the whole fucking thing. H we
went through. We we went to Dodger Stadium, our local
like city testing thing. The line was too long. Then
we we were going to go to my g P,
but they weren't doing testing. So the chances of this
(04:23):
even happening, of getting this diagnosis were so slim because
we just ended up at this urgent care where this
doctor talked me into getting an X ray and just
based on the fact that when they before you have
the COVID test, they say do you have any symptoms?
I was like, no, I have a little cough, but
(04:44):
who doesn't you know? And I thought he was you
know when you're at a makeup counter and they give
you the upsell what you really need is the expensive
moisturizer and then they don't stop. So I thought it
was an upsell, and so I agreed to this X
ray just to like, Okay, let's get out of here.
He was just not quitting, you know. I mean we're
(05:06):
at a mini mall next to a trader Joe's. I'm like,
this is I don't I never thought that those people
were actually doctors, like in those urgent cares. I mean,
you know, well, it's l a. They were probably actors too. Well.
Once we went to an urgent care on Halloween for
my kid to like cut their finger, and the doctor
(05:28):
I'm saying that with like air quotes, had a like
a hatchet, like you know, like like a costume with
a hatchet stuck in his head. I mean that's what
I think of urgent care doctors, right. So I mean, anyway,
so get the sex ray. He says, oh, you're fine,
and we go on our way. My car breaks down
on the freeway and then we're in like a zombie
(05:48):
apocalypse movie because Triple A is not coming, and I'm like, wow,
I guess Triple A doesn't come during a pandemic. We're
on the side of the road. The phone rings and
it's the doctor from the urgent care saying I've made
a mistake. You actually have a mass on your lung
(06:11):
Jesus Christ, And on the side of a freeway with
a broken down car and what, well, it depends on
the freeway. What freeway was it? Okay, we're on the
the Foothill Freeway, which is in like it's like we're
on this part where there's nothing. There's just a nothingness there.
(06:32):
So I felt like I was in one of those like, um,
not like a Tarantino movie, like you're something bad's going
to happen at the side of that road. So well
usually it does, by the way, Yes, and luckily that
didn't happen, But no, you just were told you had
a mass on your lungs. Just that. But you know,
then I went through these months of like, maybe it's
(06:53):
a walking pneumonia or something called valley fever, And then
I was convinced and the doctor that I was with
at the time, because we hadn't done a biopsy in
these other further tests, we thought it was maybe that
I was using this facial toner that has castor oil
in it, which can store in your lungs. And I
was like, wouldn't that be just like me, my vanity
(07:14):
has given me an infection. We thought I had an
infection in my But who came up with that ridiculous
aypothesis me, no, but no, but he had said to me,
have you been eating castor oil? And I'm like no.
But then I happened to look at this facial miss
and I saw it had castor oil in it. I mean,
(07:35):
this is this is the thought of a desperate person.
I understand, you're literally clinging, clinging to the vines of life, right,
And so then you know, three months into it, I
get this diagnosis, after this biopsy and all this, and
you know, it's a life changing thing. And I you know, again,
maybe not a good idea in the book. I have
(07:57):
this line and something I've always said, like, oh please,
don't tell me that cancer is a gift or the
universe is doing something for me. But I have taken
this opportunity to ask myself, you know, Okay, how long
am I going to live? So how am I going
to live? How? How am I going to have a
(08:21):
happier life? I mean, just why not? This is just
the way it is. I am alone at home with
cancer and kittens. It's sort of like the worst nightmare
of like Spinster Heaven, you know, And I've embraced it.
I'm like Spinster strong. Yeah, yeah, good, well by the
way your next book should be called Cancer and Kittens
(08:42):
because it's it's dark, but then there's something cute while
kittens are magic. Everybody knows that. Yes, Okay, so what
was the first thing that went through your head? Well,
first of all, it was like the worst of the
worst case of like that phone call was on a
speaker phone in front of Ezra. Right. I never would
(09:04):
have you know, you just want to protect your kid,
and I would have wanted to find a way, but
it was like, oh, just right out there, so that
wasn't a possibility. And then I was, of course just
in this sort of emotional free fall, and I you know,
(09:27):
I was I'm really lucky my sister came out. And
my sister has never seen a problem. She didn't have
a spreadsheet for like, she's a mission driven person and
this is just the kind of mission you know, she
could step into. Because I was just I was a wreck.
I was just going from like course yeah zero to panic.
(09:50):
Meals were falling by that. I just could barely function,
you know. So of course I have to say when
she told me she was coming out, she's said the
three scariest words someone in your family can say to
you you're adopted one way ticket. She had gotten a
(10:13):
one way ticket to come visit that has layers of
well crazy meaning to us. That really scared me because
I'm like, oh, fuck, this this is serious, Like she's
just coming out for possibly forever. But she was like
(10:34):
a Mary Poppins of like my sister's, like a sainted person.
She was getting up at five am, starting running her
business and then cooking for us, and she just gave
this layer, you know, of stability to the household, and
you know, it was life saving and it was hard
for me. And then other friends started helping to of
(10:56):
just calling me, going for a walk with me and
just you know, um, this is really tells you something
about me, Like I don't like to cook, but so
I don't borrow a cup of sugar from my neighbors.
But my neighbors were doing things like leaving a glass
of wine for me in the shrubbery in front of
my house. My doctor said I could have a glass
(11:17):
of wine, and you were like like on lockdown here.
So I would text my neighbor Barbara and say, hey,
what what do you have open tonight? And she would
like not the bottle. I think they were worried about
me A glass and actual just glass of wine sitting
in the shrubbery. I mean, that's amazing, But it was
hard for me to actually accept help, Like I don't
(11:40):
I don't like to be that person. I want to
be the person to rush in and make things more chaotic,
was as it sometimes it happens. But didn't it feel good?
I mean, didn't you feel love and and warmth and
not so alone? Not at first? Not at first. At first,
I just felt just felt like a failure. And if
I could say to anyone any advice, just yet accept it,
(12:02):
just say thank you. You know. I just felt so embarrassed,
like I had failed that I needed help. And also
people say things to you in order to help you,
and it's hard to hear them. More people don't know
what to say, so that becomes a thing, you know,
And you know, in the New York Times, I wrote
(12:24):
about my friend who was just kept wanting me to
make juice and got me this juicer and its like
the loveliest thing. But like I just didn't want one
more thing to have to do, you know. And I
don't want to be someone's cancer warrior. I have a
very very good friend who I held her hand during
(12:45):
a very scary cancer scare in her stomach, and she's
a survivor, but she was bombarded with all that advice
to It was like every day somebody said something out
of some aspirational calendar that you didn't know what to
do with, or you know, people would send her a
kite and be like fly high, you know, just all
this crap. And I said to her, what is it,
(13:08):
you know, honestly, what do you miss? What do you want?
Because she didn't want to tune a cast role and
she didn't want me, you know, crying at her feet
telling her buck Choy is supposed to you know, none
of it. It's hard, you know, it's hard because you
feel like people are meaning so well, and uh, you
don't want to not except that. Once I got over that.
(13:30):
But there was a point where, um my sister, I
think it was two months in and it was kind
of near the time where we decided I was okay
for her to go back to New York. And this
was maybe a sign. She said, Okay, tonight, I'm making
turkey and zucchini loaf. And I went, I said, oh
(13:54):
my god, I am so sorry. I am so sorry.
Oh my god, I would love that. And she's like,
what I said, listen, I have cancer. Do I really
have to have turkey and zucchini loaf? Because that sounds
like a punishment. Can't we just order in sushi? Like
I just want sushi? She was like, well, of course,
(14:14):
but it's so hard to say what you need. And
you know, actually, one of the things that is, you know,
a strategy of coping with this is I have become
a little bit better at saying no, great, you know,
yes of like things that work for me, things that
(14:35):
don't work for me, How I want to spend my time,
how I don't want to spend my time. I think
that's really hard for women. I think that's really hard,
nearly impossible, and I struggle with it every day. I
say yes to everything. I just want to say that
yesterday I drove my child's roommates cat to the vet.
So as I say this, I am not saying I've
(14:56):
got this day completely full of ship, full of ship.
But you love animals, let's put it in that category. Well,
I also I love my kid. So was there anything
anybody said that actually helped following your diagnosis? I did
get some great advice about the cancer thing and things
that people say to you from Caitlin Flanagin, who writes
(15:17):
for the Atlantic. So, Caitlin has had stage four breast
cancer for like seventeen years. It's you know, she's an
amazing person that she has continued to live her life
and she's a mom of two. Anyway, she I called
her near the very beginning because people were telling me
(15:39):
I had to eat raw foods, I had to eat
this rare vegetable. I should go see a psychic surgeon.
I you know, there was one very close friend of
mine set to me before I got the diagnosis. You know,
you know your body better than anyone else. Do you
think you have cancer? Are you really like I do? What? So? Wow?
(16:04):
Well people, but and she said it out of love,
of course, a total love. So Caitlin said to me,
she said, Annabelle, you don't have to eat raw food,
you don't have to juice, you don't have to think
positive thoughts, you don't have to sacrifice a virgin in
a volcano. Go to your doctor's appointments and take the
fucking pills. Just do what they say. And it's just
(16:26):
like freed me to say I'm gonna do this in
a way that you know works for me. I do
feel like a sense of humor is if saving grace,
because it did kick in for me, this sort of
shifting of the mind thing where I used to say, like, gosh,
(16:47):
you know, if I ever get cancer, I don't want
to be the person who you know, she had cancer
and she ran a marathon. Like I want to be
the person who has cancer and doesn't run a marathon.
Like I just like, do I have to work that hard? No,
it's the best excuse not to run a marathon, you know.
But there's this funny thing about we we reward a
(17:08):
certain kind of behavior that we think is laudable. And
I'm not saying it's not great to run a marathon.
Really it's fantastic. But there's like, you know, you can
see and everyone sent me. There's like Ted Ted talks
and I got I got a thousand links to them.
I had cancer, I ran a marathon, and everyone collapse.
(17:30):
If I ever do the talk, I will do the
I had cancer and I tried to live a normal
life every day and I'm sort of a joke I'm
going to not run. But it's proved to be the
thing that I feel has been the most important thing
to me. And it's one of these coping mechanisms of
(17:50):
how do I get through this cancer, how do I
get through this COVID Which has been something that I've
never really liked in my life, which is to really
invest in my quality of daily living. I'm much more
of a person like I. I get excited about a destination.
I love doing a book tour, I love, you know,
performing and doing just but like I have to try
(18:14):
to make every day work on my daily living, like
the daily strategies of living, making that be valuable because
that's where we're at in COVID. All these things that
I realized, I've learned exactly how much of a social
person I really am. In fact, in the book I
write about this that right at the time that COVID hit,
(18:38):
I was really feeling good about the way I designed
my life post marriage. I have a shared writing office
so I can have water cooler conversations. I was doing
these open houses where I'd invite writers to come to
my house. I'd say that my house is open from
seven to ten. There's tea and snacks if you want it,
(19:01):
and it's a quiet room and we just pick a
spot and write, and which is so lovely. I loved
that idea, you know what. It was like this great
way to get myself to work. And it's just one
of my community things. I volunteer at the high school.
And then of course they all fell away, you know
in COVID. So then I started this writer's writing alone
(19:23):
together community like I had in my living room on zoom.
And this is a really nutty thing, but you know,
every day there'd be like, uh, someone from Florida, someone
from Chicago, and friends were telling friends and people on
social media. There was just one thing you're supposed to
just be writing and it really helped. But it was funny.
(19:44):
There was one person I don't know who she is,
I've never met her. She would write and then fold
laundry and I didn't have the heart to say ron zoom. Yeah.
I just started to think of it like it was comforting.
It was like, oh, look it's Dagas the lawn dress
(20:06):
in my on my zoom screen, Like this was one
of my little adaptations. Well isn't it funny how we
all find our little things. There's a lot more to
come after the short break and we're back with more.
(20:28):
Go ask Alley. There must be things that you've sort
of consciously tried to work on to help you get through.
One of the things I've had to really think about
during this time is becoming more flexible. Like I'm a
person who really likes routine, and I like that because
(20:51):
without it, I just kind of just fall apart. Yeah,
Like I liked being and this was I don't know
if you feel this way, Ali, but being an act
tris worked for me in those years of that career.
I actually loved having people tell me where to go
and what to do and what to say. There was
a part of me that just found that so relaxing. Wow,
(21:15):
I was the opposite. I was. I was the girl
who was and maybe that was the writer of me
that was saying, you know, what would be a funnierline,
You know, it would be better if I popped out
from behind the desk and then a little bit of like,
don't tell me what to do? You sound like my mother.
I mean, I'm just a layer of issues, you know what.
Comedy writers and directors don't always enjoy someone who tells
(21:38):
them how their line is going to be. Funnier. That's
not what they'll tell you. One thing, my husband, George Stephanopolis,
is you know, a brilliant man, not known for his comedy.
And very early in our marriage, I said, this is
what you're never allowed to say to me, you know
what would be funnier. So I will never say to you,
(21:59):
do you know what would be a more interesting question?
For bid laden? Like I'll never say kind of that
kind of stuff? Do you like stay in your land? Yes?
And it was very helpful in our marriage that one
thing to not say, yeah, that's just not happening. But
you know, I started to say something about flexibility and
and and and being a rigid person who likes to
stick to a schedule. That has been something it's been
(22:22):
really interesting to note during this time. Like normally I,
in normal world, I do like to have a very
specific schedule. I have found that this COVID isolation, stay
at home thing has required me to be more flexible
(22:44):
and to say like, oh, you know, things stopped working,
like there's different stages of the pandemic. Like you know,
everyone was like sour dough bread, I'm gonna bake sat
I did not get into that, but you know, most
people did did your garden? Did you make a vegetable garden?
I didn't make a vegetable garden, because that would have
been useful. What I did do was I got and
(23:06):
everyone on my block was doing this. It was like
it swept through. We all started making rock gardens. So
I was this is gonna sound a little nuts. I
was going to these like dumpsters in front of people's houses,
getting in, salvaging broken concrete and then mixing them with
rocks in the front yard. As it was like, Mom,
it's like you're you're in a prison quarry. Because I
(23:30):
would just like work on this for hours a day,
and I just want to say, in retrospect now that
I see it, I'm not sure I have improved the
value of my home. That might appeal to somebody. I'm not.
You don't know sure about you don't know it's an aesthetic. Well,
(23:51):
and then I just couldn't stand to see another rock,
like do you know? And then I have this daily
writer zoom, and I was working like ten hours a day,
and I was feeling really productive. And then I hit
a point where and I'm at this point now where
working all day was just depressing me. And so my
new phase of the pandemic that I'm in is I
(24:15):
have to have more playtime. And I really mean like playtimes.
So two of my long time friends I don't want
to say oldest because we're already old enough. We are
taking ukulele lessons on Zoom. They're in New York. Why ukulele? Okay,
(24:35):
we wanted to do something. One of my friends suggest
that we do the accordion. I'm like, that's hard and expensive,
Like accordions are really expensive and it's really hard. So
all three of us like, what can we do? What
do we all have? And we all have kids, so
we all have a ukulele because somehow or another, children
(24:55):
just end up with ukuleles and reporters. I feel like
we have orders, right, So we are okay, we all
have yukes. We meet once a week on Zoom, and
I mean, the thing about it is we suck. We're
never forming a band. By the way, I assumed that, Okay,
I to say anything. I assumed you sucked until you
(25:19):
told me otherwise. At first, we were like we were
just kind of got a little intoxicated, like we're going
to have like a band, We're going to get a band.
We're three Jews and and three Yukes and we're gonna
go out and we're gonna tour. And we were like,
we're gonna learn R E M songs. That was our first.
(25:39):
We're working on You Are My Sunshine and Twinkle Twinkle
It's and that'll take like five years to prob like
it's And you know, one of my friends is that
Jessica heck Too, actually a brilliant actress. She she might
be a little worse than me on this on the Yuk.
I just I don't want to say ay thing you
take pride and saying that publicly. Yes, well, because she's
(26:02):
so accomplished as a performer, and I let's spring her
down a notch. I guess. We just laugh. We laugh,
and we're like the whole world stops. We're playing the youth.
We're together and that you know, because of this diagnosis,
it's really important to catch up with friends, and that's
been a really important thing. There's a sometimes I get
(26:26):
overwhelmed with emotion of like just um, like gratitude of
like oh my god, I love you. We've had all
these memories. I can get very even just talking about it,
like sentimental because you get this kind of diagnosis and
you feel like time is even more precious, right. So, Um,
the thing about the youth class is we're all together,
(26:48):
but we're not talking about our lives. We're not talking
about even just like rehashing the day or things that
are going on. We're just focused on an activity together.
And this focus is relaxing and it's really fun and
it and it doesn't tread into the territory that has
(27:12):
an emotional content to it, So it's just joyful. What
what I'm hearing from you is that, Yeah, what's working
for you right now is to actually do things that
have distraction so that you can actually enjoy life a
little bit and not be in the muck and mire
(27:33):
of of cancer. Yeah, pockets of time that are distinct
from the oh, the issues of the day. And in
some sense, you know, that's that's what's called a liminal space. Right.
And also there are things I can do with people, um,
kinds of engagement that I just really need that. Can
(27:56):
I ask you? You are divorced. You seemed, based on
your book to have a pretty amicable breakup. Has that
changed your relationship with your acts when you got the
cancer diagnosis. I wanna just say in the You're Leaving
When book, it's it's not a divorce book, not at all,
(28:17):
And that's very not at all. Yeah, it's a post,
it's a post, definitely, it's life. And I did that
specifically because first of all, we're not actually divorced yet.
Oh we have been, you know. And the issue was
health insurance. We are still working out are things and
(28:38):
like so many people in this country, it was the
health insurance, uh that has been keeping us together. But
we are we are making this division now. You know.
It's fun in a pandemic go to mediation divorce on
a zoom. It's it's a little nuts. But I didn't
(28:59):
I just didn't want to write about that. I feel
like I need to wait a certain amount of time now.
I wrote about the cancer diagnosis during COVID in the
New York Times because I wanted to do two things.
I wanted to encourage anyone that had any kind of
symptoms to not think of putting off going to the doctor,
which was very smart. And I wanted to also bring
(29:21):
attention to this chronic illness cost in America because there
are going to be long haulers and other people like me.
They've been dealing with these kind of things for a
long time, this issue of how do you afford that?
In America, this is the largest source of bankruptcy is
medical bills. So I wrote that, but I don't usually
(29:41):
write about things for a few years. I want to
process them. And because I'm not actually divorced, and I
just that's actually too emotional for me to write about.
And and it is in some sense. I mean, it
has been as amicable as it can be, but it's hard.
Two decades of marriage. It's really hard. And not just
as you say, as you say in your book, you're
like the show is over. We closed the show, right,
(30:05):
and you know, when this diagnosis came, my X would
would like to be supportive of me. And the interesting
thing I've found is I've had to sort of draw
a line in the sand. Though I don't feel like
it's good for me to be asking too much, really
asking much at all, because that's my past life and
(30:27):
that's not going to be healthy for me. Like, just
that takes a lot of strength. My friend, well, I
just can't. I just can't do it. Are you online
dating at all? Right? Now? That's funny you should mention
that I know, but I went to the online Jewish
(30:48):
virtual speed dating event that's called the Mats of Ball,
And I know there's two kinds of mats of balls.
There's sinkers and floaters. This was definitely a sinker. But
you're open to it. You're open to it, right, you know?
I'm not. I'm not really interested in online dating, so
it's not really for me. But are you open to
(31:10):
pleasure post cancer diagnosis? Can you go there? Can you
be like, you know what, I'm going to take out
the vibrator, I enjoy a little fun today? Or are
you like no, yeah, yeah I I And I wrote
about this because I just felt like and not enough
people were talking about the search for lou Are you
(31:31):
going to vaginal atrophies? Yes, you are, By the way,
I know exactly what you're talking about. And I I
will publicly say that my vagina is still okay and
intact and and getting good use good for you. But
I have friends that complain about pain and dryness and
(31:53):
and so when you talk about the Mona Lisa procedure,
it is something that my gynecologist has tried to push
me on the way every time I get my moulds checked.
They want me to get jubiterm and I'm like, no, no, no,
no no, but you right, so wonderfully visual about issues
(32:15):
with the vagina. But this one procedure, which I think
is supposed to plump it up. So tell me, tell
me about is your vagina awake now, Annabelle, it's right now.
I really don't know how it's doing. I've been thinking
about cancer. But before then, I did do this Mona
Lisa thing, and I'm just gonna trying to find the
(32:36):
right lube at a certain age. That's something I've never
seen in a movie, Like you know, I just love
I mean, I love seeing films with women at a
certain age having sex. But every time I see these movies,
I'm like, where is the moment where they're like, she's
got like an arsenal like I have. Now it's like
(32:58):
I'm preparing for the end of the world loopocalypse. I've
got a stash of lubes, but it wasn't actually working.
So I did sign up for this Mona Lisa thing.
And by the way, wouldn't it be great in an
unmarried woman if Jill Clayburg pulled out a bottle of
coconut oil. Yes, yes, we need to normalize it. Let's
(33:22):
do it. We're yeah, we're gonna We're gonna do it.
We're gonna do well. But part of the thing I,
you know, write about is this like, oh, everybody knows
se alis. You've seen those bathtubs on posters. There's commercials
for a rectile dysfunction, which, by the way, again like, okay,
a rectile dysfunction. It's the butt of jokes Viagra who
(33:45):
came up with the term vaginal atrophy? Like what kind
of punishment is that? It sounds like, you know, my
vagina has fallen and it can't get up. I mean
it's like it's not it's just well worse. Your vagina
is dead. Is it died? Yes, yes, and it's it's horrible.
They could have called it vaginal dysfunction. Would have been better.
(34:07):
Then I'll take. And again, no one had know what
I knew, had talked to me about this, and so
I go, I sign up with my doctor for this.
And in the fertility area there's orchids and couches and families.
I was like they were having picnics. It's like this
happy scene of like beautiful light streaming in and they
(34:32):
I check in for the Mona Lisa, and they send
me to this darkened room with high wingback chairs and
I'm not kidding, black and white photographs of like sand
dunes where the dead vaginas go. And then of course
they call it the Mona Lisa, which is just a
terrible appropriation of great arts. As if Mona Lisa the
(34:55):
only thing she could be sort of smiling about is
that her vagina is working. A again, I mean, it's
all an outrage. It's just talking about it makes me
so angry. And then it was a little uncomfortable, but
you know what, it did work. It did work. It
did work. Are you getting kicked back for this? No? No,
(35:17):
I am not. I should. I should Again, it's expensive
and again it's like it's one of those things that's
so unfair, which is that viagra and sais they have
codes so they can be covered by your insurance. Is
the Mona Lisa covered? Do I even have to ask that?
Of course not. It costs so much more for women.
(35:37):
But it did actually plump it up. And I mean
that's the problem is the vaginal walls get thinner as
you get older, and if you have sex regularly, then
it maintains its tone or it's like working out, you know,
or isn't it like driving an Alfa Romeo, Like if
(35:58):
you leave it in the garage for too long, it
won't start up. But if you drive it a lot, right,
very you know, it requires attention, right, so maintenance, maintenance.
So yeah, so but it actually worked. And so your
your vagina is alive, now alive, and well it's alive,
it's you know, it's yes, yes, it has been resuscitated. Good.
(36:24):
Let's take a quick break. Welcome back with more go
ask Alley. Well, I'm always happy to know that your
vagina is intact. But how is your care been? I
mean what it's what has it been like dealing with
(36:45):
doctors and needing serious care? You know? Uh yeah. One
of the you know, odd things about and the kind
of amazing things about where science is at is um
there's the the medication that I'm taking for the most
part don't have side effects that you can see, and
(37:07):
so like I have my hair. There's a little bit
of hair loss, but I have my hair, and I
have energy. There's some just some odd things about like
some like little rashes or sometimes a little bit of nausea,
but it's really amazing. But there have been moments when
I've found myself saying, well, I'm I'm sorry I don't
look sick enough for you. It's I mean, Jesus, people
(37:31):
have an expectation of how a person with cancer or
a disease looks. There's saying and I'm going to get
it wrong about like you don't know what path someone
has been walking, you know, And that's sort of a
call to empathy, right because when you when you see
a stranger, where you see someone having a hard time,
(37:52):
you don't actually know the circumstances of their life. And
this is what a person living with a chronic disease
can look like. And that's me So people's appearances really
belie what they're going through. And it's also one of
those things of like during COVID people look like they're healthy,
(38:14):
but we don't know and you know, like you can
be asymptomatic. It's it's not a bad thing to remember
on a on a on a level of health that
we don't know what people are going through as also
just you know, emotionally, we don't know what people are
going through. It's going to say mental health too. Yes,
(38:36):
And I've taken that to heart, you know, and I'm
writing about really serious issues, and I take those issues seriously,
you know. Um, I feel like it has been a
saving grace for me, and I want to share those
other people that you know, a sense of humor can
even sustain you. So, like, how how you use your humor?
(39:01):
Like this, you want to hear how I chose my oncologist. Uh,
here's what I did. The first doctor was, on the
face of it, like a very compassionate person, like a
very kind face with kind eyes. And what he said
to me was the exact same diagnosis as the second
(39:26):
doctor and the same protocol, but the way he said it,
he said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry what you have.
We're going to do the best we can for you
for as long as we can. There's no cure for this.
We're just going to do the best we can. And
my sister was there because you know, like I said,
(39:47):
she makes a spreadsheet. She had gone through my medical records,
and she said, my sister is behind in her mammogram
at her call on oscar piece. Should should she be
catching up that right now? And that doctor said, I
don't think we have to worry about that now, oh
my And I'm like, oh my god. And I know
(40:10):
he meant that in a kind way, like why put
her through that? Like what he was saying was we
know the cancer that's going to kill her, and she
was like, oh my god. But he was very kind
about it. So I thought, you know, everyone suggested me
I get a second opinion, and I said, well, why
should I do that, because this is generally known what
(40:34):
I've got and what the you know, situation is. But
people suggested it. So I went to see this doctor
that I heard had the bedside manner of, as someone
put it, an open grave. What this doctor said to
me was, first of all, he gave me the history
of lung cancer like I was writing a science paper
(40:55):
about it. I immediately like, oh, a project. I love
a project, and take notes. I'm a I'm a writer.
And yes, there is no cure for this right now.
Same information, very cut and dried. And then my sister says, well,
my sister is behind in her maverigram nicolinoscopy. What do
you think? And he thought, took a pause, and he said, well,
(41:18):
I want your sister. I'm sitting right there by the way.
I want your sister to be one of my patients,
who is you know, who gets cured of this, so
that she could have the possibility of one day getting
breast cancer. I thought, you know what, that's my guy.
(41:39):
I want the guy who wants me to live long
enough to maybe get breast cancer. Yeah. I just thought, okay,
you know, I mean and like I thought, this is
this is you know, this is pretty funny amidst the
horrible nous of this. And that's when I know my
brain is working. That's when I know that, like, okay,
(41:59):
you know that's a coping mechanism for me. Absolutely. Yeah,
So that was that was how I picked that. Yeah, Annabelle,
I want to we've we've been going since December on
this podcast. I do, but I do want to end
on something that I'm sort of obsessed with from your book,
(42:21):
which is you you became obsessed with this fluffy poof
that you saw in the window of a furniture store
well by the way, which has led to you basically,
what are you lying around naked on like white shag rugs?
And so take us through this journey that gives you
so much pleasure that has ended with you becoming Linus
(42:42):
from Peanuts. Yes, I have a blank ee. Well, okay,
that's a lie. I have a lot of blank ease
now and I fucking love my blank ease And if that,
if I'm lioness, that's that's what I need. And I
recommend it. I highly recommend a blankie. You don't need
to get your chart done, just get a blanket. It's
(43:03):
so comforting. I have a blanket, and George has a blanket,
and we're not allowed to share blankets, but that blankets
pulled up over me the majority of the day and
it's it's so helpful. So the thing was I, you know,
I writing in that chapter about growing up in the
cow gone generation, that cow gone take me away, like
the idea that we were sold that there's something in
(43:25):
that case the bath that will change everything, right, I've
always tried to resist that. And then I step found
myself standing in front of a rochebou Bois showroom and
that's you know, that's that very expensive furniture retailer. And
there's this like iridescent poof and it was like the
(43:48):
color of a marshmallow, but it was glowing, and I
just got obsessed with the idea that that poof could
change my life. If I had that poof, I could
sort of rest my head on it and everything would
be could I just got obsessed. I was visiting it
in that store like a like a petting zoo. I
would go and touch it, But meanwhile it was just
(44:10):
like thousands of dollars, And so I went down the
rabbit hole of going online and ordering lesser, cheap versions
of that of like fluffy pillows. I just decided I
needed softness. I called this like a softness spree, and
I ended up with enough fluffy pillows and soft fuzzy blankets.
(44:32):
It's like there's a herd of alpaca raising in my
living room. The irony is is that during COVID it
has been so comforting, like I need my blankie. I
get it now. Why Lioness was dragging that like we
need comfort like and you know what if that's what
(44:57):
it takes, And then you know, when I got this diagnosis,
I wrote it in New York Times that what I
wanted more than a juicer was a fleecy bathrobe. I
have quite a few now. Fleecy bathrobe started arriving at
my door. And you know what, It's not a cure
(45:21):
for lung cancer, but it really helps. Actually, it really helps.
I believe it. All right, So are you telling me
not to send you a fleece bathrobe? No, sending up
too many Okay, I just want to make I want
to make it clear as we sit here, I'm wearing
hard pants. I'm actually in hard pants. I'm wearing clothes.
(45:42):
I do not wear the bathrobe all day because I could,
and that would that would be the end, you know.
But I really think one of the things I hope
people take from this book is kindness and is accepting
the kindness of strangers. I always thought that was the
worst thing, you know. I read Tennessee Williams blanched terrible
(46:05):
fear of my life to accept the kindness of strangers.
But not only you know, being kind to other people.
But I mean I can be very unkind to myself
and the way that I speak to myself. I can
be very hard and punishing to myself. And kindness to
the self. I think it's really important at this moment
(46:27):
to lower your expectations of yourself just and and if
if you need a blank ee, get it blanky get
to Yeah, Annabelle Growich, I love you so much. I
really thank you for taking this time. Your book is
unbelievably fantastic. I'm going to buy a thousand on Amazon.
(46:49):
Everybody should read it. It is but but you really,
you really walk the line of important issues. But you
do it with comedy, which is, you know, incredibly hard,
and but you do it so well. You are a
master of it. So thank you. Oh it really means
(47:10):
so much, really, does you know? Maybe it's because I'm
fifty and change that I think about mortality so much,
But it is the thing that keeps me up at night.
(47:30):
I really do lie in bed and I think I
don't have that much time left? How how am I
going to spend it? What am I going to do?
How how do I live the best version of my life?
And reading Annabelle's book and speaking to her, it does
make you think you could be going along in your life.
Maybe you're just binge watching Hulu all day and you
(47:52):
get a serious diagnosis, or you find out that your
life is being cut shorter than you expected and you
can't help it. Rack your brain and go, oh my god,
have I done everything I wanted to do? Have I
loved everybody I wanted to love to have. I said
everything I wanted to say. So, you know, as much
as you've read this on every feel good calendar or
(48:13):
heard it from Oprah, you kind of do have to
live your best life every day because you never know
when you're going to get that diagnosis or you'll be
faced by that taxi that's going too fast. Um and
now that I'm so depressed, I suggest everybody go have
a big glass of red wine. Thank you for listening
(48:41):
to Go Ask Ali next week and go ask Ali.
I talked to meditation teacher, author, radio and podcast host
Bob Roth who tries to talk me into calming my brain. Well,
good luck to that, Bob. Be sure to subscribe, rate
and review the podcast and follow me on social media
on Twitter, Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram the Real
(49:04):
Ali Wentworth And if you have questions or guests you'd
like to hear from, I'd love to hear from you.
Call or texted me at three to three four six
three five six or email me Go Ask Gali podcast
at gmail dot com. Go Ask Gali is a production
(49:28):
of Shonda Land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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