June 25, 2023 • 26 mins
This mother and father are dealing with full time jobs, raising four kids, and paying bills. They’re also raising some kids who have adopted an alternative lifestyle which includes a 16 year-old non-binary child, an 11 year-old son, a 7 y/o daughter, and a 7 y/o trans son. Hear how they handle everyday life with all the chaos around them.
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(00:00):
So tell me about your children.We have four kids. Our eldest is
sixteen, a non binary. Thenwe have an eleven year old son,
a seven year old daughter, anda seven year old trans son. At
what point, in what stage ofthese of these children's lives did you discover
that they were someone else or wantedto be someone else. Yeah, our
(00:20):
eldest came to us when they hadjust turned fifteen, just turned fourteen,
fourteen, they had just turned fourteenand said, hey, I have something
to share and came out as nonbinary, saying that they didn't really feel
completely feminine and that some days actuallyfelt kind of masculine, so they felt
(00:41):
kind of in the middle, andso we term yeah, so we talked
it through. Wanted to hear howyou know, they got there, what
does that feel like for them?And so we started talking through, well,
what would they prefer as far aspronouns and referring to their gender,
you know. So, yeah,that was at the beginning of the summer
(01:02):
when they turned fourteen, and thenthroughout the next six months letting in different
pockets of friends and family to beaware of that the preferred pronouns and at
school as well. So it soundedlike that. Well, let me ask,
did you were you caught off guard? Were you surprised by this?
Our eldest had already come out tous as bisexual at that point, soveral
(01:26):
months earlier, which was somewhat ofa surprise to us. And then why
we just hadn't I would say Ihad experienced them having crushes they were assigned
female at births. I experienced themhaving crushes growing up on boys. I
just saw no indication at that point. So we were somewhat surprised. But
(01:48):
as my husband and I were talking, there's this sense of we'd already had
all sorts of those sort of hypotheticalconversations though, of like if any of
our kids were LGBTQ, would thatbe a problem for us? Would And
the answer was just absolutely no.So that when our kid came and wanted
to talk, you know, siton the couch with us and say hey,
I'm by and later I'm trans weare able to just say, wow,
(02:09):
thank you for sharing that with us, like please tell us more,
we love you. And it wasa big deal that they came and shared,
But it wasn't a big dramatic conversation. Yeah, it was almost a
little bit just like the next thingin getting to know them a little bit
more. They're in teenage years.There's a lot of development already happening for
(02:31):
teenagers, and so this just feltlike another way that we get to know
them as they grow into being ateenager. This was just one part of
their life that we got to understandabout them. Did you ever think at
one point that, well, thisis just a phase. They're just going
to go through this phase, andbecause you know, you see it on
social media, you see it inthe media mainstream, this is just a
phase. Maybe they'll be fine.So I would say parents are always going
(02:54):
to wonder that, But it's almostnever a good thing to say to your
kid, right, I mean,because sure, phases happen, but you
want to honor people's trajectory and storyand how they're developing. So what I
remember telling our eldest was that weweren't going to hold them to it in
the sense that or part of acommunity that has quite a few LGBTQ folks
(03:15):
in it, and so I knowthat sometimes people just sort of get to
know themselves and so they sort oftry out like I think this might be
the thing that will help me understandmyself. And then so somebody might come
out as non binary and then latersay, oh, I really realized,
actually I'm lesbian, like and thisactually helps me understand my identity better.
(03:37):
And so basically we just wanted tolet them know it's okay to be in
process. And however, you knowthat your brain is still developing. We
hear you that something is going onthat you're trying to figure out words for
we honor it. We're going tohonor who you tell us that you are.
But also you don't have to feelembarrassed if later on you decide that
(03:57):
there's another descriptor that you've actually realizedhelps you, helps fit and help helps
you understand who you are better.And so I think there's also the idea
of, like, when you considerthat question of oh, it's a phase,
you're focusing on the future and whatyour hopes are. And I think
for us it was we want tolove our child here and now today,
and whatever happens in the future willhappen in the future, and we'll deal
with it then. But the hereand now is this child sitting with us
(04:21):
and looking to be loved and acceptedand cared for and that was for us
the highest and most important of ourpriorities. Yeah, I definitely had to
tell them. I'm not saying I'msecretly hoping you're straight. That was not
the point. It was just thatthey have freedom to continue to develop and
figure out who they are. Okay, So those are the high points.
I mean the fact that you wereaccepting. But every parent I've ever talked
(04:43):
to had a brief moment that theyare they were in fear, and they
feared for their child because of whatthey just told them. Yeah, I
think there's always going to be youknow, in my field, I've seen
elements of bullying for LGBTQ youth,and so that is a con learn that
you get to have for your child. But the other side of that is
(05:03):
having an LGBTQ community around really providesa lot of safe spaces for our child
to be who they are. Welive in a community that's just so supportive
of the LDDQ rights, and Ijust feel really confident that the teachers and
the friend groups and my child hasreally lowered that any of the anxiety of
(05:26):
what they would experience. I mean, I would say it's it's absolutely not
to say that there isn't a journey. A therapist who when we could see
that our youngest child was likely totransition soon, we started working with a
therapist together just to make sure thatwe were processing well, that we were
you mean together with your child,actually with my husband and I. We
(05:48):
decided that would be most appropriate sinceour child was six at the time,
and the therapist said something that reallystuck with me, which is that parents
go through their own transition. It'syour own emotional journey. Any kind of
change involves grief. Like getting anew job. Somebody gets a new jobs,
there's grief involved with that. Youyou're losing one thing even while you're
(06:11):
getting another great new thing. SoI think for most parents who have kids
transition, there's going to be anelement of grieving the child as you as
you knew them, even while you'resaying, hey, kid, who you
are? I love you and Iwelcome you, and I want to get
to know this version of who youare too, and that's just a part
of the process. Do you though, I mean, being adults, being
(06:36):
professionals, do you think a childthat's six years old really knows what they're
experiencing and what's best for them.I personally think they need their parents to
help guide them absolutely. So withthat, there's a difference. Right,
So we have two kids in verydifferent age categories. So we have our
(06:56):
child who came out and began tosocially transition as a teenager, and that's
a different experience, right, They'reolder, they have more ideas, more
awareness, and then we have achild who the experience with them, I
felt like something was different. Therewas there was something in my head that
said, Hey, if one ofour kids is going to be LGBTQ,
(07:19):
it's going to be this one.From the time that they were two years
old, there was just something therewas. They also were assigned female at
birth, and I would have atthe time said, I don't know what
to tell you except they have avery cheerful, masculine energy, and we
just wanted to make space for Imean, generally speaking, like, there
(07:43):
are communities and we come out ofboth of us, my husband and I
come out of pretty evangelical communities thathave very conservative ideas around gender roles,
very traditional ideas around gender roles.That's not personally how we live, and
so there's just a sense of like, oh, this is interesting, here's
this child who gravitates towards all sortsof things that are traditionally masculine, and
(08:05):
we just want to say that's okay, because there's no one right way to
be female. And yet over theyears we saw more and more that small
child at four, five and six, just expressing more and more emotion anytime
someone suggested, for instance, thatthey put on a dress or even keep
address in the closet just in casethat there were tears there where. It's
(08:28):
just this feeling of just incredible upset, always asking to play on the boys
team. By five or so,beginning to say more and more, I
wish I was a boy. Whycouldn't I be a boy? The other
children in the family saying things likeso and so is basically a boy anyway.
(08:50):
There is just the sense of almostfeeling like we can see it,
we can see who our kid is, and yet we actually don't want to
tell them who they are. Westill want to hold it open, saying
things like, hey, kiddo,when we go to the store to clothes
shop, isn't so silly how theyput the clothes into boys and two girls
(09:11):
close our clothes? You shop?Whatever side of the store you want to,
We just want to hold it openfor you. Right, Hey,
you can be a girl in somany different ways. It's not to leave
it open because it is a bigdeal to transition. We're not saying it
isn't. But finally, what endedup happening with our our child is they
(09:31):
had a playmate who one of theirparents had transitioned. The parent had been
assigned male at birth and has transitionedand is living as the woman that she
is. And so I heard myyoungest two kids, including you know who
I now recognize as my trans son, talking and they were trying to figure
(09:52):
out the transparent because they saw someindicators that kind of made them think daddy.
And they saw some indicators that madethem think mommy. I mean,
they're they're sick. They're just tryingto figure it out. And so I
realized I needed to go help them, like understand, and so I gave
them what I thought was a childappropriate explanation of Hey, so and so's
(10:13):
parent was born in a body thatlooked like a voice. But even as
a kid, because I know thisparent's story, even as a kid,
they always felt like they were reallya girl. And so as an adult.
They realized that on the inside theyhad been a girl the whole time
and they were going to live thatway. And I gave them that explanation.
(10:37):
It worked for them. It madesense. I told them, people
tell us who they are. That'swhy this parent, you know, you
see them wearing dresses and makeup,and you know, has recently changed their
name. And they accepted it noproblem. I walked away wondering, I
wonder what my child is going todo with this new language. This is
(10:58):
kind of going to be a littlebit of a test. Again. I
never wanted to tell them who theyare, But within twenty four hours,
my transon had come back to meand said, Mom, I figured something
out. I realized that just likemy friend's parents, I'm the opposite.
They were born in a body thatlooked like a boy, but on the
inside they were really a girl.And I was born in a body that
(11:22):
looks like a girl, and I'mreally a boy. And I said,
wow, thank you for letting meknow. I really appreciate that. And
that seemed to be enough of aconversation for them at that point, and
over the next few months there weredifferent conversations that we again let them bring
up like, Hey, I've realized, since I'm a boy, can we
(11:43):
change the decorations in my room?I've realized, since I'm really a boy,
Hey, could I start using Isee some people at church who put
their pronouns on their on their nametags. Could I put my pronouns on
my name tag? Short haircut?Can I get a shorter haircut? We
had already started, it had gottenprogressively. The haircut was a big deal.
The haircut was a big deal.Yeah, I was a happy kid,
(12:07):
was a very when he got hisshort haircut. Yeah, the term
would be gender euphoria. Him lookingin the mirror and singing his boy haircut
for the first time. And youknow, it's funny because I look back
at when I was young and wehad even my sister wanted to always play
on the boys team and always wantedto do this too, but we just
wrote it off as her being atomboy and that. Yeah, I mean,
(12:31):
I want to say there's no people. Gender is a spectrum. It's
not all one way or the other, right, but just to say people
may have different levels of sort ofgender nonconformity, the sense of and obviously
the more rigid your your box ofwhat you think it is to be male
or female. The more people maylook gender nonconforming to me. Since my
(12:52):
child has come out, I've hadpeople tell me that I'm gender nonconforming,
and clearly that's why they're trans.For other people who have a larger box,
they wouldn't look at me and saythat. So you know, your
your sister, maybe you know itkind of depends. I have so many
women friends now in their forties whowill get together and laugh and say,
man, if we had had theterm non binary in her twenties, man,
(13:15):
that would have been interesting. Huh, what would we have done with
that? But for many of usnow we're in our forties and it doesn't
feel, you know, like anecessary identity to explore. Necessarily. Of
course, then I know other fortyyear forty year olds who it's absolutely a
necessary identity to explore and is incrediblyfree and liberating. You already talked about
(13:35):
the fact that you're you're fortunate enoughto be in a community that's very accepting,
and in some ways you have alot of LGBTQ plus people in that
community. So what happens though,when your children go outside of this bubble
are what are you doing to helpprepare them for that? Yeah, I
think a lot of what we wantto do is know where they're headed,
(13:58):
right, whether is it at school, who are they hanging out with,
what are those spaces looking like weprepare spaces for them. I think we
had put together a letter for likethe After School Wreck Center to explain,
hey, here's kind of where ourchild is at, just giving the adults
in the program at heads up ofwhere that was where our child was,
(14:20):
so that you know, if thepronoun issue came up. I pausitive because
I'm curious. So when you senda letter like that to another organization that's
going to be in the charge ofyour children, how did they accept that
they were they willing to go alongwith what your wishes were at least the
heads up, Or have you runinto organizations or groups and it's like,
(14:43):
you know what, that's your issueat home, We're going to do it
this way. Our experience locally hasbeen that people are very accepting and even
if you know they may not havethose particular beliefs personally, like they understand
their responsibility from making sure our childis safe. So talk about when you're
preparing your children for the outside worldand looking at how that space looks.
What are your desires for your kidsat this point, What do they want
(15:05):
to do with any idea where theywant to go? And if they're this
sure about their identities, are theysure about everything else in their future?
Again, I think I'm going togo back to what I said before,
is like, we want to lookat just the hearing now, right.
We don't always want to have toproject too far in the future because that
builds expectations. And when you buildtoo many expectations for what that might look
(15:26):
like, you know, you mightbe disappointed because that we want to look
at what kind of person are they? Kind? Are they caring for their
fellow human beings? I think thosecharacter aspects we really want to focus on
for our kids at this point.Can I see too? I just I
think about you know, I'm imaginingconversations that parents throughout the ages have had
(15:48):
to have with their daughters, rightwhere you have to like talk with them
about the realities of going to partiesand going to bars, and you have
to prepare them for the fact thatit is a cold, cruel world.
And yet there's this this irony right, because you want to say, but
it's I'm so sad for you thatyou have to prepare for this, because
you should be able to go toa party, you should be able to
go to a bar. I kindof want to prepare the world for my
(16:12):
kids too. And so when Ithink about even those letters that we sent
to programs and teachers, one ofthe paragraphs that we always included was basically
saying, Hey, we've tried toanticipate as many of the potential obstacles or
objections or you know, just thosethose things that we're going to come up
(16:34):
that we could just Hey, let'slay it all out on the table.
We all know that there there arethings that you're concerned about. We always
included a part even to say like, hey, you may have some sort
of religious or moral objection. Hey, we're people of faith as well.
We get it. We'd be happyto have more of a conversation. But
what we're asking is that even ifyou imagine that you would do this differently
(16:56):
as a parent, if our kidswere your kids, you think you would
do this differently, could you treatus with compassion and respect. Could you
acknowledge that this is a complicated situationand we're doing our best. I think
that would go a long ways ifpeople could just say, yeah, maybe
I don't get it, Maybe Icould ask some questions, but maybe in
(17:18):
the meantime I could just credit parentsfor doing the best they can to love
their kids. Well that said,look what's going on right now in the
media. Parents are showing up toprotest school board school board meetings, They're
showing up to protest books and phrasesand sayings, and people are confused about
(17:38):
the pronouns and what to do.What do you attribute all of this too?
I think throughout a good part ofthe twenty century now, schools are
always being a flashpoint for various controversies, whether it's teaching evolution and creationism,
whether it's going to be integration.Schools have always been a piece because we
have so much value into our childrenlives. So I think, yes,
(18:00):
this is a really this is actuallyone that's kidding us pretty close to home.
We understand that. But I thinklooking at this in a broader sense
of there's going to always be controversiesbecause education and schooling and children are such
a high priority and value in theAmerican life. And so I think a
lot about the people that are motivatedand what motivates them, and really wanting
(18:22):
to understand why those those things aresuch a big deal for them. At
the same time, we want tojust let our kids understand what our important
values as a family are of careand compassion and kindness, and so that
we can as much as we cancontrol what's within our own home. I
think there's always going to be varioustypes of controversies. At the educational level,
it's really preparing them for how togo out and care for others and
(18:45):
listen and have good conversations. Butwhat about where do you think this comes
from? This fact that the parentsare showing up and violence is erupting,
and people are so adamant about theirchildren not being exposed to any alternative lifestyles.
They don't want it in the schools. They don't want their children learning
(19:07):
about this, and they want itto be only in the privacy of their
home that they learned about this kindof thing. Yeah, to me,
I'll be honest, it feels abit like our trans kids are being set
up as scapegoats. That it's oneof those issues that it brings out a
lot of emotion and yet in anygiven school there are so few trans kids.
(19:32):
It's a vulnerable population population that isat risk in all sorts of ways.
I mean the risks of suicide andother things when they don't feel support,
particularly from their families. And soI'm honestly I feel a bit confused
about what the parents are so afraidof. Being trans is not catching,
(19:56):
It's not we We've had such wonderfulexperiences with the other kids around our children,
including so our you know, ourseven year olds. Sometimes families are
able to manage a child's transition,and they sometimes purposely do it in a
way where they might change a child'sschool all of their different activities so that
(20:18):
their child is able to enter intoa space as a completely new person,
so that nobody knows that they usedto use a different set of pronouns.
We have not done that with ourkids. It just hasn't been the situation,
and it hasn't seemed needful. Kidsare actually pretty flexible, and so
I would just encourage any parent who'sfeeling stressed. One you can always go
(20:41):
talk to your teacher, you know, talk to your child's teacher, ask,
you know, what types of thingsthey talk about, how they talk
about it, be curious. Ifthere is at actually a trans child that
you're aware of in your child's class, maybe you actually want to get to
know that family. It could bethat we're actually pretty normal. We go
camping and our kids do gymnastics,and it's just not that scary. And
(21:04):
most of the time we don't talka lot about our kids being trans.
They're just who they are. They'rejust human. Are they in public school?
Are they all in public school?House at work? Our eldest two
are in public school, so ournon binary child who's in high school,
and then our youngest two. Weactually shifted to a kind of a hybrid
(21:25):
homeschooling through a public charter a coupleof years ago for unrelated reasons. Nothing
about the transition because what I wasgetting at in the public school system.
Then, have your kids had anyproblems at all? None that I can
think of. I mean, oursixteen year old will occasionally talk about,
you know, kids who are less, you know, adept with the pronouns,
(21:51):
more resistant to trying occasionally. Butthere's there's a large group of queer
kids and they're involved in a bunchof activities, you know, so they
certainly have straight friends as well.Who are you know, just part of
cross country with them or the differentbands they're part of. They're just a
normal kid. You bring this upa few times pronouns. You know.
(22:11):
Part of a lot of this consternationamong the public too, is now they're
I think they believe they are beingforced into this pronoun situation where now and
then they don't understand and they're sofraid to even speak up anymore. They're
fraid they're going to say the wrongthing. What would be your recommendation or
your suggestion for people like that?I love to tell people, and I
(22:33):
try to take a coaching moment wheneverI'm talking with one of my kids coaches,
I try to actually coach my kidsand how they might coach people around
them, because I do think themore people feel stressed about that, it
seems to heighten the tension. Maybewe're all a society perfectionists. I don't
know. But we're gonna mess upwith each other. That's okay, Like
we're we're going to offend each other. Those are learning opportunities. So what
(22:55):
I how many times have we messedup today? We probably? Yeah,
in our family, we still messup on the pronouns probably ten times a
day. I mean there are sixof us, so you know, we've
all had plenty of opportunities. Sothis magic phrase, we just say,
oops, I'm sorry, and thenwe move on. Yeah, you might
you repeat it right like, youcorrect yourself and you move on. And
so anytime I'm talking with the teachers, say hey, don't worry about it.
(23:17):
They're going to correct you. You'regoing to say, oh, I'm
sorry, correct yourself, move on. It's okay. I mean, there
are so many things in life we'regoing to accidentally. You know, it
turns out there's going to be aword that we didn't know was offensive because
it has a history of zone.So when somebody tells you, and we
don't actually have to get all flustered. We can just say, wow,
thank you for letting me know.Oops, I won't say that again.
(23:41):
Let's move on. Right. Youreally are the new modern family, I
guess. I mean again, everyas a country, we always are changing
and growing and expanding the circle ofwho's in and who's accepted a part of
the American family. And so wefor this generation, I guess this gets
to be in it. I mean, it's you know, when you've got
one child who's going through this,but you've got what three children of the
(24:07):
four or all two of the fourare going through some sort of a transition
or have already gone through a transitionor some sort So half of your children,
I mean, what are the odds. I guess we're special, We're
lucky. I mean that they're no. I say that facetiously, but I
mean you get the kids you get, and they're great kids. We have
amazing kids. Yeah, pretty awesome. So to put a kind of a
(24:32):
cap on this, what are yourbiggest fears now with respect to your kids
things moving forward to society? Whatare your biggest fears? I really that's
funny because I just really don't thinka lot about my fears. I think
about how great our kids are andhow they're going to go do great things
in the world. It's hard toreally think about fears. We don't spend
a lot of time fearing things,do you do? So I'll say a
(24:55):
fear if I can say a hopetoo, because I'd rather end on a
hopeful note. Fear I mean someof the laws or proposals in other states,
not ours, around potentially taking kidsaway from their parents who are trying
to find medical care. And bythe way, that whole discussion, the
way people talk about it, that'sjust it's not how it works. Again,
(25:18):
we're talking about our children socially transitioning, not medically transitioning. But yeah,
that's that's incredibly I mean, eventhat people are talking about it,
I find that just frightening and awful. Again, this is a this is
a population. These are kids whoneed care. They need parents who get
them, understand them, love them, and do their best. I don't
see how a bunch of state lawmakersare going to be able to decide that
(25:41):
for us. And then man,a hope would be that people would just
get to know some trans folks,listen to some trans stories, and just
these are human people, these arekids, These are wonderful neighbors. We
don't have to be so fearful.He said, She said, They said.
(26:04):
Is a production of the KFIE NewsDepartment for iHeartMedia, Los Angeles,
and is produced by Steve Gregory andJacob Gonzalez. The associate producer is Nick
Pagaliocchini and the field engineer is TonySorrentino.
So tell me about your children.We have four kids. Our eldest is
sixteen, a non binary. Thenwe have an eleven year old son,
a seven year old daughter, anda seven year old trans son. At
what point, in what stage ofthese of these children's lives did you discover
that they were someone else or wantedto be someone else. Yeah, our
(00:20):
eldest came to us when they hadjust turned fifteen, just turned fourteen,
fourteen, they had just turned fourteenand said, hey, I have something
to share and came out as nonbinary, saying that they didn't really feel
completely feminine and that some days actuallyfelt kind of masculine, so they felt
(00:41):
kind of in the middle, andso we term yeah, so we talked
it through. Wanted to hear howyou know, they got there, what
does that feel like for them?And so we started talking through, well,
what would they prefer as far aspronouns and referring to their gender,
you know. So, yeah,that was at the beginning of the summer
(01:02):
when they turned fourteen, and thenthroughout the next six months letting in different
pockets of friends and family to beaware of that the preferred pronouns and at
school as well. So it soundedlike that. Well, let me ask,
did you were you caught off guard? Were you surprised by this?
Our eldest had already come out tous as bisexual at that point, soveral
(01:26):
months earlier, which was somewhat ofa surprise to us. And then why
we just hadn't I would say Ihad experienced them having crushes they were assigned
female at births. I experienced themhaving crushes growing up on boys. I
just saw no indication at that point. So we were somewhat surprised. But
(01:48):
as my husband and I were talking, there's this sense of we'd already had
all sorts of those sort of hypotheticalconversations though, of like if any of
our kids were LGBTQ, would thatbe a problem for us? Would And
the answer was just absolutely no.So that when our kid came and wanted
to talk, you know, siton the couch with us and say hey,
I'm by and later I'm trans weare able to just say, wow,
(02:09):
thank you for sharing that with us, like please tell us more,
we love you. And it wasa big deal that they came and shared,
But it wasn't a big dramatic conversation. Yeah, it was almost a
little bit just like the next thingin getting to know them a little bit
more. They're in teenage years.There's a lot of development already happening for
(02:31):
teenagers, and so this just feltlike another way that we get to know
them as they grow into being ateenager. This was just one part of
their life that we got to understandabout them. Did you ever think at
one point that, well, thisis just a phase. They're just going
to go through this phase, andbecause you know, you see it on
social media, you see it inthe media mainstream, this is just a
phase. Maybe they'll be fine.So I would say parents are always going
(02:54):
to wonder that, But it's almostnever a good thing to say to your
kid, right, I mean,because sure, phases happen, but you
want to honor people's trajectory and storyand how they're developing. So what I
remember telling our eldest was that weweren't going to hold them to it in
the sense that or part of acommunity that has quite a few LGBTQ folks
(03:15):
in it, and so I knowthat sometimes people just sort of get to
know themselves and so they sort oftry out like I think this might be
the thing that will help me understandmyself. And then so somebody might come
out as non binary and then latersay, oh, I really realized,
actually I'm lesbian, like and thisactually helps me understand my identity better.
(03:37):
And so basically we just wanted tolet them know it's okay to be in
process. And however, you knowthat your brain is still developing. We
hear you that something is going onthat you're trying to figure out words for
we honor it. We're going tohonor who you tell us that you are.
But also you don't have to feelembarrassed if later on you decide that
(03:57):
there's another descriptor that you've actually realizedhelps you, helps fit and help helps
you understand who you are better.And so I think there's also the idea
of, like, when you considerthat question of oh, it's a phase,
you're focusing on the future and whatyour hopes are. And I think
for us it was we want tolove our child here and now today,
and whatever happens in the future willhappen in the future, and we'll deal
with it then. But the hereand now is this child sitting with us
(04:21):
and looking to be loved and acceptedand cared for and that was for us
the highest and most important of ourpriorities. Yeah, I definitely had to
tell them. I'm not saying I'msecretly hoping you're straight. That was not
the point. It was just thatthey have freedom to continue to develop and
figure out who they are. Okay, So those are the high points.
I mean the fact that you wereaccepting. But every parent I've ever talked
(04:43):
to had a brief moment that theyare they were in fear, and they
feared for their child because of whatthey just told them. Yeah, I
think there's always going to be youknow, in my field, I've seen
elements of bullying for LGBTQ youth,and so that is a con learn that
you get to have for your child. But the other side of that is
(05:03):
having an LGBTQ community around really providesa lot of safe spaces for our child
to be who they are. Welive in a community that's just so supportive
of the LDDQ rights, and Ijust feel really confident that the teachers and
the friend groups and my child hasreally lowered that any of the anxiety of
(05:26):
what they would experience. I mean, I would say it's it's absolutely not
to say that there isn't a journey. A therapist who when we could see
that our youngest child was likely totransition soon, we started working with a
therapist together just to make sure thatwe were processing well, that we were
you mean together with your child,actually with my husband and I. We
(05:48):
decided that would be most appropriate sinceour child was six at the time,
and the therapist said something that reallystuck with me, which is that parents
go through their own transition. It'syour own emotional journey. Any kind of
change involves grief. Like getting anew job. Somebody gets a new jobs,
there's grief involved with that. Youyou're losing one thing even while you're
(06:11):
getting another great new thing. SoI think for most parents who have kids
transition, there's going to be anelement of grieving the child as you as
you knew them, even while you'resaying, hey, kid, who you
are? I love you and Iwelcome you, and I want to get
to know this version of who youare too, and that's just a part
of the process. Do you though, I mean, being adults, being
(06:36):
professionals, do you think a childthat's six years old really knows what they're
experiencing and what's best for them.I personally think they need their parents to
help guide them absolutely. So withthat, there's a difference. Right,
So we have two kids in verydifferent age categories. So we have our
(06:56):
child who came out and began tosocially transition as a teenager, and that's
a different experience, right, They'reolder, they have more ideas, more
awareness, and then we have achild who the experience with them, I
felt like something was different. Therewas there was something in my head that
said, Hey, if one ofour kids is going to be LGBTQ,
(07:19):
it's going to be this one.From the time that they were two years
old, there was just something therewas. They also were assigned female at
birth, and I would have atthe time said, I don't know what
to tell you except they have avery cheerful, masculine energy, and we
just wanted to make space for Imean, generally speaking, like, there
(07:43):
are communities and we come out ofboth of us, my husband and I
come out of pretty evangelical communities thathave very conservative ideas around gender roles,
very traditional ideas around gender roles.That's not personally how we live, and
so there's just a sense of like, oh, this is interesting, here's
this child who gravitates towards all sortsof things that are traditionally masculine, and
(08:05):
we just want to say that's okay, because there's no one right way to
be female. And yet over theyears we saw more and more that small
child at four, five and six, just expressing more and more emotion anytime
someone suggested, for instance, thatthey put on a dress or even keep
address in the closet just in casethat there were tears there where. It's
(08:28):
just this feeling of just incredible upset, always asking to play on the boys
team. By five or so,beginning to say more and more, I
wish I was a boy. Whycouldn't I be a boy? The other
children in the family saying things likeso and so is basically a boy anyway.
(08:50):
There is just the sense of almostfeeling like we can see it,
we can see who our kid is, and yet we actually don't want to
tell them who they are. Westill want to hold it open, saying
things like, hey, kiddo,when we go to the store to clothes
shop, isn't so silly how theyput the clothes into boys and two girls
(09:11):
close our clothes? You shop?Whatever side of the store you want to,
We just want to hold it openfor you. Right, Hey,
you can be a girl in somany different ways. It's not to leave
it open because it is a bigdeal to transition. We're not saying it
isn't. But finally, what endedup happening with our our child is they
(09:31):
had a playmate who one of theirparents had transitioned. The parent had been
assigned male at birth and has transitionedand is living as the woman that she
is. And so I heard myyoungest two kids, including you know who
I now recognize as my trans son, talking and they were trying to figure
(09:52):
out the transparent because they saw someindicators that kind of made them think daddy.
And they saw some indicators that madethem think mommy. I mean,
they're they're sick. They're just tryingto figure it out. And so I
realized I needed to go help them, like understand, and so I gave
them what I thought was a childappropriate explanation of Hey, so and so's
(10:13):
parent was born in a body thatlooked like a voice. But even as
a kid, because I know thisparent's story, even as a kid,
they always felt like they were reallya girl. And so as an adult.
They realized that on the inside theyhad been a girl the whole time
and they were going to live thatway. And I gave them that explanation.
(10:37):
It worked for them. It madesense. I told them, people
tell us who they are. That'swhy this parent, you know, you
see them wearing dresses and makeup,and you know, has recently changed their
name. And they accepted it noproblem. I walked away wondering, I
wonder what my child is going todo with this new language. This is
(10:58):
kind of going to be a littlebit of a test. Again. I
never wanted to tell them who theyare, But within twenty four hours,
my transon had come back to meand said, Mom, I figured something
out. I realized that just likemy friend's parents, I'm the opposite.
They were born in a body thatlooked like a boy, but on the
inside they were really a girl.And I was born in a body that
(11:22):
looks like a girl, and I'mreally a boy. And I said,
wow, thank you for letting meknow. I really appreciate that. And
that seemed to be enough of aconversation for them at that point, and
over the next few months there weredifferent conversations that we again let them bring
up like, Hey, I've realized, since I'm a boy, can we
(11:43):
change the decorations in my room?I've realized, since I'm really a boy,
Hey, could I start using Isee some people at church who put
their pronouns on their on their nametags. Could I put my pronouns on
my name tag? Short haircut?Can I get a shorter haircut? We
had already started, it had gottenprogressively. The haircut was a big deal.
The haircut was a big deal.Yeah, I was a happy kid,
(12:07):
was a very when he got hisshort haircut. Yeah, the term
would be gender euphoria. Him lookingin the mirror and singing his boy haircut
for the first time. And youknow, it's funny because I look back
at when I was young and wehad even my sister wanted to always play
on the boys team and always wantedto do this too, but we just
wrote it off as her being atomboy and that. Yeah, I mean,
(12:31):
I want to say there's no people. Gender is a spectrum. It's
not all one way or the other, right, but just to say people
may have different levels of sort ofgender nonconformity, the sense of and obviously
the more rigid your your box ofwhat you think it is to be male
or female. The more people maylook gender nonconforming to me. Since my
(12:52):
child has come out, I've hadpeople tell me that I'm gender nonconforming,
and clearly that's why they're trans.For other people who have a larger box,
they wouldn't look at me and saythat. So you know, your
your sister, maybe you know itkind of depends. I have so many
women friends now in their forties whowill get together and laugh and say,
man, if we had had theterm non binary in her twenties, man,
(13:15):
that would have been interesting. Huh, what would we have done with
that? But for many of usnow we're in our forties and it doesn't
feel, you know, like anecessary identity to explore. Necessarily. Of
course, then I know other fortyyear forty year olds who it's absolutely a
necessary identity to explore and is incrediblyfree and liberating. You already talked about
(13:35):
the fact that you're you're fortunate enoughto be in a community that's very accepting,
and in some ways you have alot of LGBTQ plus people in that
community. So what happens though,when your children go outside of this bubble
are what are you doing to helpprepare them for that? Yeah, I
think a lot of what we wantto do is know where they're headed,
(13:58):
right, whether is it at school, who are they hanging out with,
what are those spaces looking like weprepare spaces for them. I think we
had put together a letter for likethe After School Wreck Center to explain,
hey, here's kind of where ourchild is at, just giving the adults
in the program at heads up ofwhere that was where our child was,
(14:20):
so that you know, if thepronoun issue came up. I pausitive because
I'm curious. So when you senda letter like that to another organization that's
going to be in the charge ofyour children, how did they accept that
they were they willing to go alongwith what your wishes were at least the
heads up, Or have you runinto organizations or groups and it's like,
(14:43):
you know what, that's your issueat home, We're going to do it
this way. Our experience locally hasbeen that people are very accepting and even
if you know they may not havethose particular beliefs personally, like they understand
their responsibility from making sure our childis safe. So talk about when you're
preparing your children for the outside worldand looking at how that space looks.
What are your desires for your kidsat this point, What do they want
(15:05):
to do with any idea where theywant to go? And if they're this
sure about their identities, are theysure about everything else in their future?
Again, I think I'm going togo back to what I said before,
is like, we want to lookat just the hearing now, right.
We don't always want to have toproject too far in the future because that
builds expectations. And when you buildtoo many expectations for what that might look
(15:26):
like, you know, you mightbe disappointed because that we want to look
at what kind of person are they? Kind? Are they caring for their
fellow human beings? I think thosecharacter aspects we really want to focus on
for our kids at this point.Can I see too? I just I
think about you know, I'm imaginingconversations that parents throughout the ages have had
(15:48):
to have with their daughters, rightwhere you have to like talk with them
about the realities of going to partiesand going to bars, and you have
to prepare them for the fact thatit is a cold, cruel world.
And yet there's this this irony right, because you want to say, but
it's I'm so sad for you thatyou have to prepare for this, because
you should be able to go toa party, you should be able to
go to a bar. I kindof want to prepare the world for my
(16:12):
kids too. And so when Ithink about even those letters that we sent
to programs and teachers, one ofthe paragraphs that we always included was basically
saying, Hey, we've tried toanticipate as many of the potential obstacles or
objections or you know, just thosethose things that we're going to come up
(16:34):
that we could just Hey, let'slay it all out on the table.
We all know that there there arethings that you're concerned about. We always
included a part even to say like, hey, you may have some sort
of religious or moral objection. Hey, we're people of faith as well.
We get it. We'd be happyto have more of a conversation. But
what we're asking is that even ifyou imagine that you would do this differently
(16:56):
as a parent, if our kidswere your kids, you think you would
do this differently, could you treatus with compassion and respect. Could you
acknowledge that this is a complicated situationand we're doing our best. I think
that would go a long ways ifpeople could just say, yeah, maybe
I don't get it, Maybe Icould ask some questions, but maybe in
(17:18):
the meantime I could just credit parentsfor doing the best they can to love
their kids. Well that said,look what's going on right now in the
media. Parents are showing up toprotest school board school board meetings, They're
showing up to protest books and phrasesand sayings, and people are confused about
(17:38):
the pronouns and what to do.What do you attribute all of this too?
I think throughout a good part ofthe twenty century now, schools are
always being a flashpoint for various controversies, whether it's teaching evolution and creationism,
whether it's going to be integration.Schools have always been a piece because we
have so much value into our childrenlives. So I think, yes,
(18:00):
this is a really this is actuallyone that's kidding us pretty close to home.
We understand that. But I thinklooking at this in a broader sense
of there's going to always be controversiesbecause education and schooling and children are such
a high priority and value in theAmerican life. And so I think a
lot about the people that are motivatedand what motivates them, and really wanting
(18:22):
to understand why those those things aresuch a big deal for them. At
the same time, we want tojust let our kids understand what our important
values as a family are of careand compassion and kindness, and so that
we can as much as we cancontrol what's within our own home. I
think there's always going to be varioustypes of controversies. At the educational level,
it's really preparing them for how togo out and care for others and
(18:45):
listen and have good conversations. Butwhat about where do you think this comes
from? This fact that the parentsare showing up and violence is erupting,
and people are so adamant about theirchildren not being exposed to any alternative lifestyles.
They don't want it in the schools. They don't want their children learning
(19:07):
about this, and they want itto be only in the privacy of their
home that they learned about this kindof thing. Yeah, to me,
I'll be honest, it feels abit like our trans kids are being set
up as scapegoats. That it's oneof those issues that it brings out a
lot of emotion and yet in anygiven school there are so few trans kids.
(19:32):
It's a vulnerable population population that isat risk in all sorts of ways.
I mean the risks of suicide andother things when they don't feel support,
particularly from their families. And soI'm honestly I feel a bit confused
about what the parents are so afraidof. Being trans is not catching,
(19:56):
It's not we We've had such wonderfulexperiences with the other kids around our children,
including so our you know, ourseven year olds. Sometimes families are
able to manage a child's transition,and they sometimes purposely do it in a
way where they might change a child'sschool all of their different activities so that
(20:18):
their child is able to enter intoa space as a completely new person,
so that nobody knows that they usedto use a different set of pronouns.
We have not done that with ourkids. It just hasn't been the situation,
and it hasn't seemed needful. Kidsare actually pretty flexible, and so
I would just encourage any parent who'sfeeling stressed. One you can always go
(20:41):
talk to your teacher, you know, talk to your child's teacher, ask,
you know, what types of thingsthey talk about, how they talk
about it, be curious. Ifthere is at actually a trans child that
you're aware of in your child's class, maybe you actually want to get to
know that family. It could bethat we're actually pretty normal. We go
camping and our kids do gymnastics,and it's just not that scary. And
(21:04):
most of the time we don't talka lot about our kids being trans.
They're just who they are. They'rejust human. Are they in public school?
Are they all in public school?House at work? Our eldest two
are in public school, so ournon binary child who's in high school,
and then our youngest two. Weactually shifted to a kind of a hybrid
(21:25):
homeschooling through a public charter a coupleof years ago for unrelated reasons. Nothing
about the transition because what I wasgetting at in the public school system.
Then, have your kids had anyproblems at all? None that I can
think of. I mean, oursixteen year old will occasionally talk about,
you know, kids who are less, you know, adept with the pronouns,
(21:51):
more resistant to trying occasionally. Butthere's there's a large group of queer
kids and they're involved in a bunchof activities, you know, so they
certainly have straight friends as well.Who are you know, just part of
cross country with them or the differentbands they're part of. They're just a
normal kid. You bring this upa few times pronouns. You know.
(22:11):
Part of a lot of this consternationamong the public too, is now they're
I think they believe they are beingforced into this pronoun situation where now and
then they don't understand and they're sofraid to even speak up anymore. They're
fraid they're going to say the wrongthing. What would be your recommendation or
your suggestion for people like that?I love to tell people, and I
(22:33):
try to take a coaching moment wheneverI'm talking with one of my kids coaches,
I try to actually coach my kidsand how they might coach people around
them, because I do think themore people feel stressed about that, it
seems to heighten the tension. Maybewe're all a society perfectionists. I don't
know. But we're gonna mess upwith each other. That's okay, Like
we're we're going to offend each other. Those are learning opportunities. So what
(22:55):
I how many times have we messedup today? We probably? Yeah,
in our family, we still messup on the pronouns probably ten times a
day. I mean there are sixof us, so you know, we've
all had plenty of opportunities. Sothis magic phrase, we just say,
oops, I'm sorry, and thenwe move on. Yeah, you might
you repeat it right like, youcorrect yourself and you move on. And
so anytime I'm talking with the teachers, say hey, don't worry about it.
(23:17):
They're going to correct you. You'regoing to say, oh, I'm
sorry, correct yourself, move on. It's okay. I mean, there
are so many things in life we'regoing to accidentally. You know, it
turns out there's going to be aword that we didn't know was offensive because
it has a history of zone.So when somebody tells you, and we
don't actually have to get all flustered. We can just say, wow,
thank you for letting me know.Oops, I won't say that again.
(23:41):
Let's move on. Right. Youreally are the new modern family, I
guess. I mean again, everyas a country, we always are changing
and growing and expanding the circle ofwho's in and who's accepted a part of
the American family. And so wefor this generation, I guess this gets
to be in it. I mean, it's you know, when you've got
one child who's going through this,but you've got what three children of the
(24:07):
four or all two of the fourare going through some sort of a transition
or have already gone through a transitionor some sort So half of your children,
I mean, what are the odds. I guess we're special, We're
lucky. I mean that they're no. I say that facetiously, but I
mean you get the kids you get, and they're great kids. We have
amazing kids. Yeah, pretty awesome. So to put a kind of a
(24:32):
cap on this, what are yourbiggest fears now with respect to your kids
things moving forward to society? Whatare your biggest fears? I really that's
funny because I just really don't thinka lot about my fears. I think
about how great our kids are andhow they're going to go do great things
in the world. It's hard toreally think about fears. We don't spend
a lot of time fearing things,do you do? So I'll say a
(24:55):
fear if I can say a hopetoo, because I'd rather end on a
hopeful note. Fear I mean someof the laws or proposals in other states,
not ours, around potentially taking kidsaway from their parents who are trying
to find medical care. And bythe way, that whole discussion, the
way people talk about it, that'sjust it's not how it works. Again,
(25:18):
we're talking about our children socially transitioning, not medically transitioning. But yeah,
that's that's incredibly I mean, eventhat people are talking about it,
I find that just frightening and awful. Again, this is a this is
a population. These are kids whoneed care. They need parents who get
them, understand them, love them, and do their best. I don't
see how a bunch of state lawmakersare going to be able to decide that
(25:41):
for us. And then man,a hope would be that people would just
get to know some trans folks,listen to some trans stories, and just
these are human people, these arekids, These are wonderful neighbors. We
don't have to be so fearful.He said, She said, They said.
(26:04):
Is a production of the KFIE NewsDepartment for iHeartMedia, Los Angeles,
and is produced by Steve Gregory andJacob Gonzalez. The associate producer is Nick
Pagaliocchini and the field engineer is TonySorrentino.
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