February 13, 2023 • 24 mins
The world can feel like such a lonely place sometimes. You ever feel like there’s not enough love and support to go around? Like, there’s a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends. To get us into this topic, this week on Here After with Megan Devine, we cover grief comparisons, like whether divorce and death should be compared, or the death of anyone should be compared to the loss of a pet. Of course the short answer is no: grief comparisons are never useful. For the long answer though - listen to the show.
This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It’s my personal favorite episode of season one, brought to you again for this valentine’s day.
In this episode we cover:
- Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
- Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them?
- How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same
- The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it)
- Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make
Notable quote:
“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine
Resources:
Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters
Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.
The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is here After, and I'm your host, Megan Divine,
author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're
Not Okay. This week on Here After, one of my
all time favorite shows on my all time favorite topic love, specifically,
is there enough love in the world for everybody to
have some settle in everybody? We're going to find out
(00:21):
the answer with our new annual Valentine's Day Tradition episode
right after this first break. Before we get started, one
quick note, While I hope you find a lot of
useful information in our time here together, this show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental
(00:43):
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
Hey friends, it is time for Februaries made up holiday.
Whether you celebrate Valentine's Day or not, all that gushy
pink love imagery is pretty inescapable. Now disclosure for me
a bit of a weirdo, but February fourteenth is a
(01:04):
children's holiday. My mom loved any excuse to give us
little presents, and Valentine's Day was no exception. I associated
with childhood bulk packs of cartoon Valentine's Day cards, cupcakes
for class that sort of thing I can totally see,
like those mid eighties cartoon Valentine's school packs. Anyway, dating
myself as I always do as with most commercial holidays,
(01:26):
I honestly wouldn't notice Valentine's Day as a grown up
if it weren't for social media and advertising and my
Netflix queue. But here we are. It's February fourteen. I
do know what day it is. It's a day assigned
to love. And since we've already got this date assigned
as something special, I would personally like to claim February fourteenth,
(01:47):
not for romance, but for all love. Just capitalize on
that love element, A day to claim love wherever and
whenever it can be found. I mean, if we've got
a day dedicated to love already, lets make it a
real sacred occasion, one that helps create the love filled
world we all want. That is a tall order, So
how are we going to do that? I have given
(02:09):
it some thought, and I have a plan. Now. Grief
is part of love, so of course we are going
to talk about grief today. No surprises there. I can
make anything about grief everybody. We're also going to talk
a little bit about navigating clinical concerns as they relate
to love, and we're gonna throw in a little bit
of social justice here too, because what is justice but
(02:30):
love in action? That uh, we have got an episode
suitable for February fourteenth, and we won't even need conversation
hearts to do it. Although I really like conversation hearts,
especially the purple ones, do not at me. The purple
ones are delicious, okay, listener question number one? Everybody to
get us into this big, messy juggernaut of love. So
(02:53):
this listener wrote, I work with a lot of clients
in the middle of divorces and other separations. I also
have a you clients whose partners died, so I get
to hear both kinds of loss, death and divorce. Most
of my divorcing clients have compared their losses to death
at least once, while the widowed people have all complained
that way too many people compare death to divorce, And
(03:14):
I feel like I have this weird split vision going on.
Death isn't the same as divorce. But is it okay
that the people facing divorce think they're the same. They
like talk about them as though they're the same. Should
I be saying something about this to any of my
clients or should I just let it be? Okay? I
love this question. This is an exceptionally sticky and multilayered,
(03:37):
complicated question, and I love questions like that. So comparing
losses happens all the time with all kinds of loss.
If your partner died, it's pretty much guaranteed that somebody
will say, Hey, I got divorced, I know exactly how
you feel. If you're getting divorced, it is pretty much
guaranteed that someone else will have their own divorce story, which,
although it is absolutely nothing like your own experience, will
(03:59):
cause them to say I know just how you feel.
Comparing and conflating losses is so common. If you're a
therapist or a doc or somebody else in a help
a role, you've probably fielded a complaint like this. People
feeling like they're loss gets downgraded in some kind of
weird emotional competitive one upmanship. Unsolicited comparisons happen all the time,
(04:22):
and they turn ugly, really really fast. So for this listener,
they've got clients who are divorcing comparing their divorces to death,
and people who are living through the death of their
partner feeling piste off that people keep comparing their death
to divorce. It's probably not the same people though, right.
I mean, this listener didn't clarify, but I feel like
(04:44):
comparing divorce and death is so common. I'm assuming this
clinicians clients don't all know each other and they're all
just like complaining about each other in their individual sessions.
That would be weird and probably have some ethical concerns
to it. But before we talk about whether this listener
should bring this thing up with our clients, we should
really talk about comparing losses in general and why that's
(05:06):
a bad idea. Might not be immediately clear why this
death divorce thing is a problem. I'm going to give
you another example using losses that get compared badly all
the time, animals versus people. So let's say that you
learned that a colleague's baby died at thirty nine weeks
(05:27):
with no known cause, and you want to comfort them.
You want to let them know it's okay to feel sad,
help them feel les alone, all the good supportive person things.
So you say, I know exactly how you feel. My
dog died a few years ago and it was awful. Okay,
So for the person whose baby just died. They don't
hear that comment as supportive. They hear that your dog
(05:50):
is just as important as their child. I will tell
you that dog baby comparisons are never going to turn
out okay. Ever, But if we point that out to
the person whose dog died, like we say something like, hey,
that's not a comparison that really helps here, it's kind
of apples and oranges, the person who's grieving the loss
of their dog gets defensive, like, wait a minute, you're
(06:12):
saying that the loss of my dog isn't as important
as their baby, And my dog was my family. How
dare you say my loss wasn't important? Do you see
how terrible this gets in like less than a minute.
Whenever I describe this, I see that old Bugs Bunny
cartoon where like somebody pulls out a gun, and the
other one pulls out a bigger gun, and then a
bigger gun and a bigger like it just gets bad fast.
(06:34):
The death of a pet is an undervalued, frequently dismissed,
even ridiculed loss. So if we even suggest that maybe
it's not so cool to compare the loss of a
dog with the loss of a child, we are stepping
into battle. And what is that battle over compassion? We
(06:58):
undervalue grief of all kinds in this culture, which means
most people feel like they have to defend their grief.
And by grief here I mean all of it. Everyday stressors, divorces, breakups,
death of humans, death of not humans, job loss, illness, injury,
all of it. Because we undervalue grief and emotional pain
of all kinds, most people feel under supported just on
(07:23):
a regular basis. There's not enough compassion to go around.
Compassion is a scarce resource. And what do we do
with a scarce resource? We fight over it. We fight
over oil, we fight over water, we fight over clean air,
(07:45):
and we fight over compassion. Your divorce can't possibly be
as bad as my death. The death of your dog
isn't as bad as the death of my friend. Your
diagnosis isn't as bad as my diagnosis. You think you're
having a bad day, Mine is so much worse. We
get this almost like, how dare you approach to other
people's pain? You don't get to be sad about this thing,
(08:08):
because if we start allocating support to you, there won't
be enough support left for me, and I already feel
alone in all this. If we have to start talking
about your pain, then we have to stop talking about
my pain. And I already feel like I'm getting by
with scraps from the people I care about. I mean,
that kind of sounds leak, like maybe I'm overreacting here,
But if you think about it, if you really think
(08:30):
about it, we do actually treat compassion like pie, like
a finite resource. You give away too much and you
get nothing. The stakes are a little bit higher here
than they are with your favorite coconut cream pie. But still,
it's not just when somebody compares their loss to our
loss that we freak out like this. It's a general
way of life. A lot of the time we make
(08:53):
fun of the way people react to the death of
a musician or an actor. We get all huffy when
people are stressed out. We're not fitting into their favorite genes.
When there are people starving in the world, how dare
they be upset about something so little? There are important
issues and losses to focus on. We can't waste compassion
on these things that don't count. We've got so little
(09:15):
compassion and tolerance for other people's pain, it's no wonder
we fight over who deserves it. Here's the thing. Compassion
is an abundant resource. We just don't treat it that way.
There's actually plenty of love and compassion to go around
(09:36):
if we just stop hoarding it. There's more than enough
love and acceptance and compassion for everybody. If we treat
compassion like the abundant resource it already is, it's not pie.
We won't run out. And that means getting back to
(09:57):
our theme of the day here, that we have to
start being honor us with love. If you want a
world where there is enough love and compassion for your
losses for your life, you have to start creating that
world by extending love and compassion for all losses, even
the ones you don't understand, even the ones you don't
(10:18):
think are important, even the ones you don't see as valid.
If we're able to offer compassion to everyone without asking
them to prove that their pain is good enough or valid,
then we start to get the world that we all want,
which is a world where there is enough compassion and
love and understanding for everybody. If compassion is freely available,
(10:42):
no one needs to fight over it. That is the
end goal, that is my personal plan for world domination.
No one needs to defend their right to exist and
to feel because there is no shortage of love and
compassion my goofy example, no one fights over tooth pace,
do they. There is toothpaste everywhere, no one fights over it.
(11:06):
I want that for compassion and love. Now I realized
I didn't actually answer this listener's question yet. I went
on a rant instead, a compassion and resource guarding love
based rant. So to briefly answer this clinicians question, I
don't think you need to bring all of this up
in session in order to point out the not so
(11:26):
cool conflation of losses. However, it is something to keep
in mind as a possible line of self inquiry for
your clients. Do your clients facing divorce feel like comparing
it to death makes their loss more legitimate somehow? Do
your widowed clients feel like these comparisons take away from
the already scarce resource of love and support they feel
(11:48):
like they have around them. All good questions, not solutions,
but good questions with the side benefit of some subtle
education around the mechanisms underneath these comparisons we make without
really thinking about them. That is kind of my job
here to make you look under the surface of things.
(12:08):
You don't even pay attention to and see what's really
driving the emotional relational bus, so to speak. Love is
a lot. It is not exactly the simplistic, soft focused,
pink pastel thing the marketers use this time of year,
but love is ferocious. Coming up next, everybody, I will
tell you what to do when somebody tries to conflate
(12:30):
their loss with yours. Since you are now all newly
deputized to be less defensive and more inclusive in the
service of a more abundantly compassionate world, We'll be right
back after this break. Welcome back, friends. Hopefully you have
(12:52):
taken a minute to adjust and settle down if you
were personally feeling defensive with all of my talk about
grief comparis and treating compassion as an abundant resource. It's
important to remember here that all loss is valid, all
personal experience is valid, and no matter what the loss is,
(13:14):
everybody gets to have their own loss be the worst
loss in the world because for them it is. If
we're doing this new thing that I've been talking about,
where we seed compassion in the world, you can let
other people's losses be the worst loss in the world
for them because it is actually I have another dog
related metaphor that I just thought up in my head.
(13:37):
So I have the best dog in the world. My
co producer Tanya here also has the best dog in
the world. We are not going to fight about who
is correct because we are both correct. This is what
I'm talking about with all loss being valid. Everybody gets
to have their own loss be the worst loss in
the world because for them it is true. We can
(13:59):
even extend this whole compassion thing to inclusion and social
justice issues. You don't have to understand the experience of
systemic racism if you aren't a person of color in
order to extend love and compassion to others. If you
don't quite get the whole rigamar role around the gender spectrum,
you can extend love and compassion to the trans and
(14:20):
gender fluid communities, supporting them through the challenges of being
alive in different bodies. You see where I'm going with this, Everybody,
if you hoard compassion, you get a world of scarcity
where you are always on the lookout for wasted support,
wasted in air quotes. You're always on the lookout for
inappropriate uses of compassion, just to ensure there's enough left
(14:41):
over for you. There will never be enough in that
kind of world. You'll always end up insisting that somebody
else should be left out. We have to compete like
that when there can only be one winner, one winner
of the Love and Support Prize. That is a small all,
an ungenerous world to live in. Everybody. If you want
(15:05):
a beautiful world where compassion is everywhere and you get
to have enough for your own needs, where your own
compassion cup runneth over, you have to help build that world.
You have to treat compassion like the abundant resource it
is and share it widely. Broadcast that stuff like frog eggs,
like more than enough to ensure the continuation of the species.
(15:27):
You don't have to agree with somebody in order to
believe in their right to love and care. It sounds
pretty woo woo, but compassion actually is an expandable resource.
Practicing inclusion and validation means that people feel heard and
heard people here people, which means the whole culture starts
(15:48):
to change from one of that vindictive how dare you
feel that way? To at worst, I mean worst case
scenario if we start seeding this kind of compassion and love.
Worst case scenario is we get a world built on neutral,
impartial kindness. Best case scenario, being generous like this creates
a world built and sustained by love. Happy Valentine's Day.
(16:11):
I'm not saying you just need to smile and nod
when somebody tells you that their loss is exactly the
same as yours. That conflation of personal experience is never helpful,
not across types of loss, and not even in the
same kind of loss. This whole loss comparison conflation compassion
thing is a frustration point a lot of you share,
(16:32):
So if you need to come back to a grief
comparison of any kind, you can always go with something
like I appreciate the gesture, but comparing losses doesn't feel
useful to me at this time, or whatever. It sounds
like you and not like me. But something clear and
kind to change the subject or and the conversation. Being
compassionate doesn't mean that you still have to participate in
(16:52):
unhelpful comparisons or other rude behavior. My point here with
this little tangent is that you don't need to conflate
compassion with permission for somebody to be shitty. You can
start treating compassion like an abundant resource and have stellar
boundaries at the same time. Just because you understand where
(17:13):
somebody is coming from does not mean you have to
go there with them. Advocate for yourself where your need
to self love self. Advocacy actually increases the amount of
compassion in the world too, And clear boundaries are an
act of love. That's a whole episode for another day.
But don't conflate compassion with letting somebody just be a jerk.
(17:37):
Those two things are are not the same. Show yourself
some compassion too. That's part of building that world that
we want. So as we start winding down this particular
episode on love, with all of its messiness and it's
combat zones and it's skirmishes over resources, none of that
stuff makes it onto the Hallmark cards. I want to
(17:59):
bring in more love related concept suitable for Valentine's Day
and every day, looking for love in all the right places,
and by right places, I mean all of them, all
of the places. One of my teachers has this core
practice of asking, in any difficulty, is their love available here?
(18:23):
He doesn't ask it like an admonishment like look on
the bright side or look for the like, not that stuff,
But as an actual, true question. Is their love available
here in this moment? If we're talking about compassion as
a force for good in the world, what we're really
talking about is love. Is there love available here in
(18:45):
our own losses, in these conflict zones between humans, in
the impossible things we face every day? Is there love
available here? I mean, I say I'm kind of anti
Valentine's Day, but I'm actually very into love, So maybe
that makes me a romantic. Honestly, I think love is
(19:06):
the only thing big enough to face this world, with
all of its bullshit and stress and difficulty and beauty.
As Carl Sagan said, for small creatures such as we,
the vastness is bearable only through love. I mean, I
make myself cry all the time. How can I not
be a romantic sap about love? Truly? I am a romantic,
(19:29):
and I love quoting cool people, so I can keep
bringing you quotes at questions on love all day long.
Even though I just gave you a new question to
help you lean into love wherever you find yourself that
whole is love available here? Question? I haven't even given
you the official questions to carry with you for this week.
Stay tuned, everybody, those love related questions are coming right
(19:54):
up after this break. Each week I leave you with
some questions to carry with you until we meet again.
It's part of this whole This weird stuff gets easier
with practice thing this week? Where is the love for
(20:15):
your homework this week or your practice if you'd rather
not think about it as homework, you're not getting graded
seed some love in the world. Like, it doesn't always
have to be this grand gesture, this building the whole
world we want thing, even though I just talked that
up for the last twenty five minutes, Like, it doesn't
have to be the grand gesture. What small actions can
(20:37):
you take this week to make the world the kind
of loving, inclusive, supportive place you want to live in.
If you're stuck, think about what you want for yourself
and then go give some of that to the world.
Acknowledge somebody's sadness, Acknowledge somebody's recent accomplishments, hold the door
for the person behind you. Catch yourself when you hear
(20:59):
someone saying they're a set about something you would normally
think is no big deal, and replace that judgment with
a more compassionate, inclusive thought. I'm sticking that one in there,
because that's the really hard one to practice. It means
you have to pay attention to your sort of unconscious,
impulsive judgments. So I'm going to read it to you again,
(21:19):
because that's the real homework assignment. Catch yourself when you
hear someone saying they're upset about something you would normally
think is no big deal, and replace that judgment with
a more compassionate, inclusive thought. Try treating compassion as the
abundant resource it is and see what happens. Be a
good scientist. Run the experiment. You can even play with
(21:42):
that question my teacher asks, is their love available here?
Give it a go. Let me know how it works.
I mean with everything everybody, I am in this experiment
with you. I am asking myself these same questions and
doing these same homework assignments right alongside you. This is
part of why I love this show and part of
(22:05):
why I love Questions. Everyone's going to take something different
from today's show, but I do hope you found something
to hold onto. Hope, like love and compassion really is
a crowdsourced thing. We definitely want to hear from you
on all of these things. What are you holding onto
right now? Check out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or
(22:28):
here after pod on TikTok to see notes from the
show and leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts.
Be sure to tag us on your own social media
accounts that we can find you and use the tashtag
here after pod on all the platforms. We love to
see where the show takes you, and remember to subscribe
and leave a review. That stuff helps more than you know.
(22:50):
If you want to tell us directly how today's show
felt for you, you can send us an email at
Megan Divine dot c O. You'll find the forum right there.
We want to hear from you. I want to hear
from you this show, this world needs your voice. Together,
we can make things better even when they can't be
made right. I want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just
(23:13):
belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
daily life is full of everyday grief that we don't
call grief. Learning how to talk about all that without
cliches or platitudes or simplistic dismissive statements is an important
skill for everyone. Find trainings, professional resources, and my best
selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay. Plus the
guided journal for grief at Megan Divine dot c. O
(23:37):
Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me
Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown. Co produced by
Elizabeth Fassio, with logistical and social media support from Micah.
Edited by Houstontility. Music provided by Wave Crush, background noise
as always provided by Luna and the Leafblowers
This is here After, and I'm your host, Megan Divine,
author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're
Not Okay. This week on Here After, one of my
all time favorite shows on my all time favorite topic love, specifically,
is there enough love in the world for everybody to
have some settle in everybody? We're going to find out
(00:21):
the answer with our new annual Valentine's Day Tradition episode
right after this first break. Before we get started, one
quick note, While I hope you find a lot of
useful information in our time here together, this show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental
(00:43):
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
Hey friends, it is time for Februaries made up holiday.
Whether you celebrate Valentine's Day or not, all that gushy
pink love imagery is pretty inescapable. Now disclosure for me
a bit of a weirdo, but February fourteenth is a
(01:04):
children's holiday. My mom loved any excuse to give us
little presents, and Valentine's Day was no exception. I associated
with childhood bulk packs of cartoon Valentine's Day cards, cupcakes
for class that sort of thing I can totally see,
like those mid eighties cartoon Valentine's school packs. Anyway, dating
myself as I always do as with most commercial holidays,
(01:26):
I honestly wouldn't notice Valentine's Day as a grown up
if it weren't for social media and advertising and my
Netflix queue. But here we are. It's February fourteen. I
do know what day it is. It's a day assigned
to love. And since we've already got this date assigned
as something special, I would personally like to claim February fourteenth,
(01:47):
not for romance, but for all love. Just capitalize on
that love element, A day to claim love wherever and
whenever it can be found. I mean, if we've got
a day dedicated to love already, lets make it a
real sacred occasion, one that helps create the love filled
world we all want. That is a tall order, So
how are we going to do that? I have given
(02:09):
it some thought, and I have a plan. Now. Grief
is part of love, so of course we are going
to talk about grief today. No surprises there. I can
make anything about grief everybody. We're also going to talk
a little bit about navigating clinical concerns as they relate
to love, and we're gonna throw in a little bit
of social justice here too, because what is justice but
(02:30):
love in action? That uh, we have got an episode
suitable for February fourteenth, and we won't even need conversation
hearts to do it. Although I really like conversation hearts,
especially the purple ones, do not at me. The purple
ones are delicious, okay, listener question number one? Everybody to
get us into this big, messy juggernaut of love. So
(02:53):
this listener wrote, I work with a lot of clients
in the middle of divorces and other separations. I also
have a you clients whose partners died, so I get
to hear both kinds of loss, death and divorce. Most
of my divorcing clients have compared their losses to death
at least once, while the widowed people have all complained
that way too many people compare death to divorce, And
(03:14):
I feel like I have this weird split vision going on.
Death isn't the same as divorce. But is it okay
that the people facing divorce think they're the same. They
like talk about them as though they're the same. Should
I be saying something about this to any of my
clients or should I just let it be? Okay? I
love this question. This is an exceptionally sticky and multilayered,
(03:37):
complicated question, and I love questions like that. So comparing
losses happens all the time with all kinds of loss.
If your partner died, it's pretty much guaranteed that somebody
will say, Hey, I got divorced, I know exactly how
you feel. If you're getting divorced, it is pretty much
guaranteed that someone else will have their own divorce story, which,
although it is absolutely nothing like your own experience, will
(03:59):
cause them to say I know just how you feel.
Comparing and conflating losses is so common. If you're a
therapist or a doc or somebody else in a help
a role, you've probably fielded a complaint like this. People
feeling like they're loss gets downgraded in some kind of
weird emotional competitive one upmanship. Unsolicited comparisons happen all the time,
(04:22):
and they turn ugly, really really fast. So for this listener,
they've got clients who are divorcing comparing their divorces to death,
and people who are living through the death of their
partner feeling piste off that people keep comparing their death
to divorce. It's probably not the same people though, right.
I mean, this listener didn't clarify, but I feel like
(04:44):
comparing divorce and death is so common. I'm assuming this
clinicians clients don't all know each other and they're all
just like complaining about each other in their individual sessions.
That would be weird and probably have some ethical concerns
to it. But before we talk about whether this listener
should bring this thing up with our clients, we should
really talk about comparing losses in general and why that's
(05:06):
a bad idea. Might not be immediately clear why this
death divorce thing is a problem. I'm going to give
you another example using losses that get compared badly all
the time, animals versus people. So let's say that you
learned that a colleague's baby died at thirty nine weeks
(05:27):
with no known cause, and you want to comfort them.
You want to let them know it's okay to feel sad,
help them feel les alone, all the good supportive person things.
So you say, I know exactly how you feel. My
dog died a few years ago and it was awful. Okay,
So for the person whose baby just died. They don't
hear that comment as supportive. They hear that your dog
(05:50):
is just as important as their child. I will tell
you that dog baby comparisons are never going to turn
out okay. Ever, But if we point that out to
the person whose dog died, like we say something like, hey,
that's not a comparison that really helps here, it's kind
of apples and oranges, the person who's grieving the loss
of their dog gets defensive, like, wait a minute, you're
(06:12):
saying that the loss of my dog isn't as important
as their baby, And my dog was my family. How
dare you say my loss wasn't important? Do you see
how terrible this gets in like less than a minute.
Whenever I describe this, I see that old Bugs Bunny
cartoon where like somebody pulls out a gun, and the
other one pulls out a bigger gun, and then a
bigger gun and a bigger like it just gets bad fast.
(06:34):
The death of a pet is an undervalued, frequently dismissed,
even ridiculed loss. So if we even suggest that maybe
it's not so cool to compare the loss of a
dog with the loss of a child, we are stepping
into battle. And what is that battle over compassion? We
(06:58):
undervalue grief of all kinds in this culture, which means
most people feel like they have to defend their grief.
And by grief here I mean all of it. Everyday stressors, divorces, breakups,
death of humans, death of not humans, job loss, illness, injury,
all of it. Because we undervalue grief and emotional pain
of all kinds, most people feel under supported just on
(07:23):
a regular basis. There's not enough compassion to go around.
Compassion is a scarce resource. And what do we do
with a scarce resource? We fight over it. We fight
over oil, we fight over water, we fight over clean air,
(07:45):
and we fight over compassion. Your divorce can't possibly be
as bad as my death. The death of your dog
isn't as bad as the death of my friend. Your
diagnosis isn't as bad as my diagnosis. You think you're
having a bad day, Mine is so much worse. We
get this almost like, how dare you approach to other
people's pain? You don't get to be sad about this thing,
(08:08):
because if we start allocating support to you, there won't
be enough support left for me, and I already feel
alone in all this. If we have to start talking
about your pain, then we have to stop talking about
my pain. And I already feel like I'm getting by
with scraps from the people I care about. I mean,
that kind of sounds leak, like maybe I'm overreacting here,
But if you think about it, if you really think
(08:30):
about it, we do actually treat compassion like pie, like
a finite resource. You give away too much and you
get nothing. The stakes are a little bit higher here
than they are with your favorite coconut cream pie. But still,
it's not just when somebody compares their loss to our
loss that we freak out like this. It's a general
way of life. A lot of the time we make
(08:53):
fun of the way people react to the death of
a musician or an actor. We get all huffy when
people are stressed out. We're not fitting into their favorite genes.
When there are people starving in the world, how dare
they be upset about something so little? There are important
issues and losses to focus on. We can't waste compassion
on these things that don't count. We've got so little
(09:15):
compassion and tolerance for other people's pain, it's no wonder
we fight over who deserves it. Here's the thing. Compassion
is an abundant resource. We just don't treat it that way.
There's actually plenty of love and compassion to go around
(09:36):
if we just stop hoarding it. There's more than enough
love and acceptance and compassion for everybody. If we treat
compassion like the abundant resource it already is, it's not pie.
We won't run out. And that means getting back to
(09:57):
our theme of the day here, that we have to
start being honor us with love. If you want a
world where there is enough love and compassion for your
losses for your life, you have to start creating that
world by extending love and compassion for all losses, even
the ones you don't understand, even the ones you don't
(10:18):
think are important, even the ones you don't see as valid.
If we're able to offer compassion to everyone without asking
them to prove that their pain is good enough or valid,
then we start to get the world that we all want,
which is a world where there is enough compassion and
love and understanding for everybody. If compassion is freely available,
(10:42):
no one needs to fight over it. That is the
end goal, that is my personal plan for world domination.
No one needs to defend their right to exist and
to feel because there is no shortage of love and
compassion my goofy example, no one fights over tooth pace,
do they. There is toothpaste everywhere, no one fights over it.
(11:06):
I want that for compassion and love. Now I realized
I didn't actually answer this listener's question yet. I went
on a rant instead, a compassion and resource guarding love
based rant. So to briefly answer this clinicians question, I
don't think you need to bring all of this up
in session in order to point out the not so
(11:26):
cool conflation of losses. However, it is something to keep
in mind as a possible line of self inquiry for
your clients. Do your clients facing divorce feel like comparing
it to death makes their loss more legitimate somehow? Do
your widowed clients feel like these comparisons take away from
the already scarce resource of love and support they feel
(11:48):
like they have around them. All good questions, not solutions,
but good questions with the side benefit of some subtle
education around the mechanisms underneath these comparisons we make without
really thinking about them. That is kind of my job
here to make you look under the surface of things.
(12:08):
You don't even pay attention to and see what's really
driving the emotional relational bus, so to speak. Love is
a lot. It is not exactly the simplistic, soft focused,
pink pastel thing the marketers use this time of year,
but love is ferocious. Coming up next, everybody, I will
tell you what to do when somebody tries to conflate
(12:30):
their loss with yours. Since you are now all newly
deputized to be less defensive and more inclusive in the
service of a more abundantly compassionate world, We'll be right
back after this break. Welcome back, friends. Hopefully you have
(12:52):
taken a minute to adjust and settle down if you
were personally feeling defensive with all of my talk about
grief comparis and treating compassion as an abundant resource. It's
important to remember here that all loss is valid, all
personal experience is valid, and no matter what the loss is,
(13:14):
everybody gets to have their own loss be the worst
loss in the world because for them it is. If
we're doing this new thing that I've been talking about,
where we seed compassion in the world, you can let
other people's losses be the worst loss in the world
for them because it is actually I have another dog
related metaphor that I just thought up in my head.
(13:37):
So I have the best dog in the world. My
co producer Tanya here also has the best dog in
the world. We are not going to fight about who
is correct because we are both correct. This is what
I'm talking about with all loss being valid. Everybody gets
to have their own loss be the worst loss in
the world because for them it is true. We can
(13:59):
even extend this whole compassion thing to inclusion and social
justice issues. You don't have to understand the experience of
systemic racism if you aren't a person of color in
order to extend love and compassion to others. If you
don't quite get the whole rigamar role around the gender spectrum,
you can extend love and compassion to the trans and
(14:20):
gender fluid communities, supporting them through the challenges of being
alive in different bodies. You see where I'm going with this, Everybody,
if you hoard compassion, you get a world of scarcity
where you are always on the lookout for wasted support,
wasted in air quotes. You're always on the lookout for
inappropriate uses of compassion, just to ensure there's enough left
(14:41):
over for you. There will never be enough in that
kind of world. You'll always end up insisting that somebody
else should be left out. We have to compete like
that when there can only be one winner, one winner
of the Love and Support Prize. That is a small all,
an ungenerous world to live in. Everybody. If you want
(15:05):
a beautiful world where compassion is everywhere and you get
to have enough for your own needs, where your own
compassion cup runneth over, you have to help build that world.
You have to treat compassion like the abundant resource it
is and share it widely. Broadcast that stuff like frog eggs,
like more than enough to ensure the continuation of the species.
(15:27):
You don't have to agree with somebody in order to
believe in their right to love and care. It sounds
pretty woo woo, but compassion actually is an expandable resource.
Practicing inclusion and validation means that people feel heard and
heard people here people, which means the whole culture starts
(15:48):
to change from one of that vindictive how dare you
feel that way? To at worst, I mean worst case
scenario if we start seeding this kind of compassion and love.
Worst case scenario is we get a world built on neutral,
impartial kindness. Best case scenario, being generous like this creates
a world built and sustained by love. Happy Valentine's Day.
(16:11):
I'm not saying you just need to smile and nod
when somebody tells you that their loss is exactly the
same as yours. That conflation of personal experience is never helpful,
not across types of loss, and not even in the
same kind of loss. This whole loss comparison conflation compassion
thing is a frustration point a lot of you share,
(16:32):
So if you need to come back to a grief
comparison of any kind, you can always go with something
like I appreciate the gesture, but comparing losses doesn't feel
useful to me at this time, or whatever. It sounds
like you and not like me. But something clear and
kind to change the subject or and the conversation. Being
compassionate doesn't mean that you still have to participate in
(16:52):
unhelpful comparisons or other rude behavior. My point here with
this little tangent is that you don't need to conflate
compassion with permission for somebody to be shitty. You can
start treating compassion like an abundant resource and have stellar
boundaries at the same time. Just because you understand where
(17:13):
somebody is coming from does not mean you have to
go there with them. Advocate for yourself where your need
to self love self. Advocacy actually increases the amount of
compassion in the world too, And clear boundaries are an
act of love. That's a whole episode for another day.
But don't conflate compassion with letting somebody just be a jerk.
(17:37):
Those two things are are not the same. Show yourself
some compassion too. That's part of building that world that
we want. So as we start winding down this particular
episode on love, with all of its messiness and it's
combat zones and it's skirmishes over resources, none of that
stuff makes it onto the Hallmark cards. I want to
(17:59):
bring in more love related concept suitable for Valentine's Day
and every day, looking for love in all the right places,
and by right places, I mean all of them, all
of the places. One of my teachers has this core
practice of asking, in any difficulty, is their love available here?
(18:23):
He doesn't ask it like an admonishment like look on
the bright side or look for the like, not that stuff,
But as an actual, true question. Is their love available
here in this moment? If we're talking about compassion as
a force for good in the world, what we're really
talking about is love. Is there love available here in
(18:45):
our own losses, in these conflict zones between humans, in
the impossible things we face every day? Is there love
available here? I mean, I say I'm kind of anti
Valentine's Day, but I'm actually very into love, So maybe
that makes me a romantic. Honestly, I think love is
(19:06):
the only thing big enough to face this world, with
all of its bullshit and stress and difficulty and beauty.
As Carl Sagan said, for small creatures such as we,
the vastness is bearable only through love. I mean, I
make myself cry all the time. How can I not
be a romantic sap about love? Truly? I am a romantic,
(19:29):
and I love quoting cool people, so I can keep
bringing you quotes at questions on love all day long.
Even though I just gave you a new question to
help you lean into love wherever you find yourself that
whole is love available here? Question? I haven't even given
you the official questions to carry with you for this week.
Stay tuned, everybody, those love related questions are coming right
(19:54):
up after this break. Each week I leave you with
some questions to carry with you until we meet again.
It's part of this whole This weird stuff gets easier
with practice thing this week? Where is the love for
(20:15):
your homework this week or your practice if you'd rather
not think about it as homework, you're not getting graded
seed some love in the world. Like, it doesn't always
have to be this grand gesture, this building the whole
world we want thing, even though I just talked that
up for the last twenty five minutes, Like, it doesn't
have to be the grand gesture. What small actions can
(20:37):
you take this week to make the world the kind
of loving, inclusive, supportive place you want to live in.
If you're stuck, think about what you want for yourself
and then go give some of that to the world.
Acknowledge somebody's sadness, Acknowledge somebody's recent accomplishments, hold the door
for the person behind you. Catch yourself when you hear
(20:59):
someone saying they're a set about something you would normally
think is no big deal, and replace that judgment with
a more compassionate, inclusive thought. I'm sticking that one in there,
because that's the really hard one to practice. It means
you have to pay attention to your sort of unconscious,
impulsive judgments. So I'm going to read it to you again,
(21:19):
because that's the real homework assignment. Catch yourself when you
hear someone saying they're upset about something you would normally
think is no big deal, and replace that judgment with
a more compassionate, inclusive thought. Try treating compassion as the
abundant resource it is and see what happens. Be a
good scientist. Run the experiment. You can even play with
(21:42):
that question my teacher asks, is their love available here?
Give it a go. Let me know how it works.
I mean with everything everybody, I am in this experiment
with you. I am asking myself these same questions and
doing these same homework assignments right alongside you. This is
part of why I love this show and part of
(22:05):
why I love Questions. Everyone's going to take something different
from today's show, but I do hope you found something
to hold onto. Hope, like love and compassion really is
a crowdsourced thing. We definitely want to hear from you
on all of these things. What are you holding onto
right now? Check out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or
(22:28):
here after pod on TikTok to see notes from the
show and leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts.
Be sure to tag us on your own social media
accounts that we can find you and use the tashtag
here after pod on all the platforms. We love to
see where the show takes you, and remember to subscribe
and leave a review. That stuff helps more than you know.
(22:50):
If you want to tell us directly how today's show
felt for you, you can send us an email at
Megan Divine dot c O. You'll find the forum right there.
We want to hear from you. I want to hear
from you this show, this world needs your voice. Together,
we can make things better even when they can't be
made right. I want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just
(23:13):
belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
daily life is full of everyday grief that we don't
call grief. Learning how to talk about all that without
cliches or platitudes or simplistic dismissive statements is an important
skill for everyone. Find trainings, professional resources, and my best
selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay. Plus the
guided journal for grief at Megan Divine dot c. O
(23:37):
Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me
Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown. Co produced by
Elizabeth Fassio, with logistical and social media support from Micah.
Edited by Houstontility. Music provided by Wave Crush, background noise
as always provided by Luna and the Leafblowers
Host
Megan Devine
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