Neurodivergence & Being Seen, Not Shamed with Lauren Ober, host of “The Loudest Girl in the World

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, this idea of that there is something to grieve,
would you learn something about yourself or that you learn
I guess the grief comes in like, well, you don't
get to fix this now. There are many times where
I'll be like what why? Why would I want to
fix this? Like I'm great, you know, But then the

(00:21):
parts that you don't like that's not going away, and
no amount of working hard and being the best little
girl is ever going to get rid of it. This
is here After, and I'm your host, Megan Divine, author
of the best selling book It's Okay that You're Not Okay.
This week on here After, Prolific podcast host Lauren Ober

(00:45):
joins me to talk about autism and what it means
to be seen not hidden away. Lauren also learns that
she's an activist even if she hadn't planned to be,
so be sure to listen for that surprise little Jim
that I get to deliver all of that and more
coming up right after the first break. Before we get started,

(01:11):
one quick note. While we cover a lot of brain
wiring territory in this episode, this show is not a
substitute for skilled support or assessment with a licensed mental
health provider. Hey, friends, So I gotta say that I
was a little bit nervous about this week's guest. She's

(01:34):
got a zillion podcasts of her own out in the world,
and she's a veteran of the media business. She even
has an award winning podcast about podcasts called The Big Listen.
So I don't know. I felt a little self conscious
is probably a better descriptor than nervous. But as Glenn
and Doyle says, we can do hard things, or in

(01:55):
my case, slightly daunting things. For years, Lauren Ober wasn't
all that jazzed about herself. She was always getting in trouble.
She had these weird sensory issues, and her anxiety was
off the charts. Plus, as she says, socially, she just
kind of sucked. She said that I didn't say that
at forty two, though. Life just seemed harder for Lauren

(02:17):
than it should have been. And then in the middle
of the pandemic, she found out why all of that
stuff felt so hard for her. She was autistic. Now,
what's cool about this episode and Lauren in general, is
that Lauren's right in the middle of all of this stuff.
It's a new diagnosis for her, so she is figuring

(02:38):
out what it means to be on the autism spectrum
and how to live life as a newly diagnosed autistic person.
Most of our guests this season have been writing about
their trauma or their histories or sharing their stories for
a while now, and they sort of like they have
the story of it down, not like they feel fine
about it, but you know what I mean, Like they're
they're sort of talking about a chapter of their life

(03:01):
that they're used to. That's not true for Lauren, though.
Laurence in the middle of the story, not looking back
on a previous chapter. Her new podcast, The Loudest Girl
in the World, is a real time exploration of her
new diagnosis and what it helps her understand about herself
and her history. And the final episode of that podcast,

(03:23):
The Loudest Girl in the World, comes out tomorrow, so
you can binge the entire thing after you listen to
our conversation here today. Let's get to that one with
my guest Laura Overer. I am so glad that you're
here and now I have been listening to your podcast
for the last couple of days, so I have your
voice in my head and I'm so glad to like

(03:44):
have your face along with your voice here with me.
So you've got a podcast out called The Loudest Girl
in the World about your later in life diagnosis with autism.
And I talked about the show a little bit in
the intro here, and we definitely want people to go
and listen to it because it's rad. But I want
to open our time here together with something that I

(04:06):
am personally curious about. So you have been a podcast
host forever. You have a lot of amazing shows, but
Loudest Girl in the World is different. So my question
is why make this show? And why make this show now?
I feel like because I didn't know what else to do.

(04:29):
I work a lot. I like my job. I'm grateful
to have it. I'm grateful to have found a thing
that really works for me and that that you know,
I like the process, like I enjoy the process of
making audio, you know, for my entire life, I've never
understood why anyone would write a memoir like it seems awful,

(04:52):
Like what a terrible Like why why it's too awful?
And that's basically what I ended up doing. And I
don't know how I ended up doing that. I mean,
I did an audio memoir, and I'm not sure, you know,
I think the sort of the why of it was
that it felt like the only way that I could
really process the change and the diagnosis and the sort

(05:14):
of recalibration of my thinking about myself was to make
it into a job, is to make it work. So
if I went about it in a sort of systematic way,
a process oriented way, you know, I would I would
sort of uncover more than if I just you know,

(05:38):
went to therapy and talk to my therapist and then
and then maybe pretended like I hadn't gotten a diagnosis
or not even really investigated what that meant for me,
because I think that when you get a later in
life diagnosis of autism or really any neurodivergent condition, you know,
you've been bumping along your life okay up until the point,

(06:00):
and so you could just continue carrying on in the
same fashion that you had been. But for me, I
think it made sense to try to make work out
of it. Also, you know, when I was looking around
for resources in the early days of my coming my
my understanding of the diagnosis, I was like, there's nothing

(06:20):
out here that is in my field that I do
Why why not, And nothing really spoke to me. And
there's lots of I mean, there's lots of books and
there's endless you know, autism, TikTok, autism, Twitter, autism, YouTube,
like all of that exists. But all of those people
are like twenty years younger than I am, and God
love them for having a platform. But it's like not

(06:42):
my platform. So I made a thing maybe for me,
maybe as a you know, healing process for me. I
don't know. It's one of those like supposedly fun things
I'll never do again kind of situation, like this is
all what podcasting is, this supposedly fun thing. Know probably
know what to do it again. I love making radio,

(07:03):
I love making audio, I love I love the format.
But doing personal work is really exhausting and terrible. I
think for myself. Other people probably find it really great,
but I found it to be really agonizing. I mean,
I have a very subtle presentation of autism. I don't
need you know, I'm not getting work accommodations. I work

(07:24):
from home. There's no one to accommodate me but me,
and I think that, you know, the hard thing is
the is the going back in time, going back in
history and start thinking about yourself in the past, or
thinking about difficulties that you've had and thinking about the
ways that all that could have been eased possibly if
you had more information about yourself and if the world

(07:48):
were better equipped to handle difference, and so at least,
like with a word, with a diagnosis, at least you know,
I can keep my side of the street clean. Right.
The world isn't necessarily going to bend to me or
other people with needs at the rate that people need
change to happen. But you know, at least I can

(08:11):
be an advocate for myself because I have a word.
But sort of understanding all of that and going through
that whole, you know, like let me, let me dive
into the last forty years of my life is like
very unfun you know. Yeah, I think that there's a
there's a lot of grief tied into that, right, Like
I know a lot of people in their forties and

(08:32):
their fifties who are just now getting diagnoses, right like
with myself with a d h D and with discalcula
Like this makes everything makes so much more sense. And
a lot of people working through gender issues and identity
and like there's so much of what you just described
so much grief in looking back grief my word, not

(08:54):
your word, but looking back at my life could have
been so much different if this had existed back then.
Where does grief intersect with all of this for you?
Or does it? It's funny because when I knew I
was going to be talking to you, I was just
sort of the word grief was floating in my head,
which I'm sure you love, like when people think about
you the thing about grief. But I was thinking, sort

(09:17):
of what does it mean? Because I think we have
a very rigid, or at least I have always historically
had a very rigid understanding of what grief is. And
grief is like something dies and then you know and
then you get to grieve right or something is lost
and then you get to grieve it. But it has
to be a particular type of thing. Like I was
sitting in therapy, like I was doing like zoom therapy,

(09:39):
and then all of a sudden I got an email
or a text that came through and the dearest restaurant
I've ever like, it's like a place that I went
to for more than a decade. There's a menu item
named after me. I know, everybody works there. I know
the owners. They've invited me over for holidays. It's where
I met my ex partner who I dear, who is

(10:00):
dear to me now, And I got to note that
they're closing, and immediately, like in the middle of my
therapy session, I just started crying and I was like,
I'm sorry. My therapist is like, are you okay, and
I'm like, I'm sorry. This is so stupid, Like this
is so stupid. I just got this text about and
I mentioned all of this because it's like there's a
particular type of thing that you're allowed to grieve, you know,

(10:22):
and you're allowed to grieve your cat dying, but you're
not allowed to grieve like the restaurant that is the
most dear to you, in a place where that was
filled with joy and delight. You're like, that would be stupid,
Like why are you crying over that? That's dumb. So
that's all to say that, like my sort of working
definition of grief is is sort of it's just narrow,

(10:44):
I think. But I've had to think about this, you know,
this idea of that there is something to grieve when
you learn something about yourself or that you learn I
guess the grief comes in like, well, you don't get
to fix this. Now, there are many times where'll be like,
what what do I Why would I want to fix this?

(11:06):
Like I'm great, you know, but then the parts that
you don't like that's not going away, and no amount
of working hard and being the best little girl is
ever going to get rid of it. And so I
think that can be hard and just sort of thinking
about well, what now you know and this sort of

(11:27):
like what what are you left with once you learn this?
And and how much then how much work it takes
to process that to think about that, Like it is
you know, Okay, now I know this about myself, and
now I know X, Y and Z are not going away,
nor are they my fault. They're not going away, So
now how do I live with this? Or how do

(11:48):
I advocate for myself for whatever? But it's you know,
it's a much more sort of abstract notion I think
of grief than than we tend to think of Yeah,
we have such a narrow definition of what counts as
a loss or what you get to have emotions about, right,
which is I mean, that's one of the main reasons
for this show is to talk about all the ways

(12:11):
that grief shows up or presents or any of those things,
and that all of them are valid. And I'm sorry
your restaurant is closing. Like the loss of those secondary places,
that's a huge touchstone, well, right, and especially like for me,
it's very important to feel like if you have felt
othered in your life, my sort of people closest to you,

(12:31):
or just sort of society in general, having those places
and feeling like you're part of something are are very important.
And you know, I was thinking about this also, like
you know, my my partner Hannah experienced this. You know,
she she's in the show and and and we we
you know, I I very much think that we made
this together, although she had no editorial input. Um so

(12:54):
it wasn't really a together project, but you know, I
think that there was I do want to say a
grieving period for her, but I think that like a
period where she had to then think about what it
means for her to have a neurodivergent partner. And you know,
I mean, she loves me very much. But the things

(13:14):
that might be frustrating or the problems that we keep
running into, like they're not going to magically go away.
There are a lot of workarounds, and you know, couples
therapy is great for this. But like I think that
she experienced a period. You know, I can't speak for her,
and I wouldn't necessarily frame a discrief, but it is

(13:35):
definitely an adjustment. I would just leave it an adjustment. Yeah,
I mean, I think adjustment is a good a good
almost almost synonym here for grief, Like something you wanted
or something you were expecting or something that you relied
on isn't that way and can't be that way, and
that there is an emotional adjustment there and it's not

(13:58):
good or bad, it's kind of neutral. Right. Here's this reality.
Here are the ways that we need to adapt and
support and change and maneuver to make this the best,
the best thing we can given the reality on at hand. Right,
it's so easy, I think, to get into diagnoses bad right,
like you you mentioned this just briefly, like that that

(14:20):
othering that we do, like oh, I'm so sorry you
got diagnosed as being autistic, like what's up? No, See,
this is just a descriptor of how brains work. Differently,
like I think we we automatically consider neuro divergence as
bad news. Yeah, I mean it's not. Look, it's not

(14:41):
like it. I mean I didn't become a different person.
It's like now I have a word, and the words
very helpful. But if I lived in an accommodating world,
I wouldn't need a word, and you wouldn't need a word.
There was a d h D. And like, I mean,
I've talked about this with my friend Catherine May who
wrote the book Wintering, and she wrote a book called
The Electricity of Every Living Thing, which is about her

(15:05):
sort of understanding of her own neurodivergence and autism and
and that like you need a shorthand, which is like
the word, because people cannot understand difference if it is
not sort of pathologized. I think that, like, you can't
just understand that people come in a million different shapes

(15:29):
and sizes and their brains work differently and different people
need different things, you know, so you need like, oh,
well this kid is like X, so they need why,
and or this kid has you know X, and they
need why. And you know, part of that is practical.
I mean in a school like schools as they are
now are not equipped to deal with every single kids

(15:53):
unique needs. Public schools, I would say, are not equipped
to deal with every unique child and all of are
unique learning styles, and that is a real shame because
a lot of kids get left behind, you know. So
we give a word and we're like, okay, well if
you have this word, then you need x things, and
it's like okay, yes. And also there's a lot of
other stuff that goes that goes with that. But if

(16:15):
we were all working from a place of expansion or
you know, expansive thought around all of this, like, it
would be a munch easier and we wouldn't necessarily need,
you know, a lot of labels because people would just
like have a much easier time moving through the world
being somewhat a typical. Yeah, well the whole typical A

(16:37):
typical thing irks me linguistically anyway. But like a lot
of a lot of diagnostic history, a lot of like labels,
all of those things, they're at their root, they're about
identifying a problem so that we can cure it or
fix it. There's a normal, typical way and then there's
a divergent way. And when we clearly do this in Greek, right, like,

(17:00):
there are certain things that you get to grieve, and
you have to do it in this specific way and
emote in this specific way and then be done by
this timetable. And if you don't, then you are a
typical and you're clearly doing it wrong. People are so
good at coping, especially folks are in their forties and
fifties and up. Like, we have lived through eras where
none of our relational or educational challenges were on anybody's radar,

(17:26):
and so we learned to adapt and develop coping mechanisms.
And sometimes that's called masking, right, masking what's actually happening
so that you can fit in and adapt. So if
we really think about how many people have had to
learn to adapt to a world that doesn't naturally suit them,
how can we say anything is typical? So what does

(17:46):
neurotypical even mean in a world that doesn't have any
curiosity about variation at all? This is year after and
I'm Megan Divine. We've been talking to podcast host Lauren Ober.
Let's get back to it. So what does neurotypical even

(18:10):
mean in a world that doesn't have any curiosity about
variation at all? Right? Right, when you get into the
semantics of things, like for me, it feels like a
dangerous territory because because people do feel very attached to
an identity, like a neurodivergent identity, to an autistic identity,
to a you know, non binary identity, like people are

(18:33):
attached to their identities for lots of reasons. For me, again,
I think it's it's less like thinking about well, there's
there's one pervasive way that people are thinking about things,
and then there's this way there's sort of much more rare,
and that's why it's more just a shorthand for me.

(18:55):
You know, look like, like, I'm a straight up weirdo
in a lot of ways, and I have a lot
of behavior that is not typical or you know that
would not be seen as normal. That's fine, I don't care.
I don't necessarily want to be, you know, the standard
bearer of the average uh, And I'm fine with that.

(19:15):
I think that what I would like, like you can
say I'm weird, and also you can still be like
I love her, like she's cool. It's not in spite
of it's because of her brain works differently than perhaps
we have been taught the brains work, you know. I mean,
looks a number of people who after doing the show

(19:35):
have been like, you know, well I'm a little autistic,
and I'm like, well, not quite, but yeah, we all
have we all have traits that make us feel weird
and that's great And I think that that allows people
to be more open and empathetic because they can be like, oh, well,
I have a lot of food sensitivities too, Am I autistic?

(19:58):
It's like, well, no, oh, it's a spectrum and you're
a little bit and so hopefully it's just like you know,
it's like, uh, well everyone's a little bit gay. I'm like,
we'll prove it, you know, like go like you dude,
make out with that dude, Like, go do it now? Um,
But but is it a continuum and can you say
like sure, I'm you know, I am female. I do

(20:22):
not want to have an emotional or sexual relationship with
that woman, but I find her deeply attractive. Yes, does
that mean you're gay? No? But like, does it mean
you can empathize with with people who are in a
sexual minority? Yes? You know, Look, however you want to identify,
I'm cool with I'm gay, I'm lesbian, I'm queer, I'm
a dike like whatever, it's it's all the same to me,

(20:45):
I'm just straight. Just don't call me just don't do
not call me straight or not. But this, like this
goes back to what we were just talking about, is
that the categories, categories themselves are neutral, right, And the
way that those categories is get used is sometimes to
further shame and other eyes people, And sometimes those categories

(21:07):
are used as a way to find your people, right,
to find the places like that that place that you
feel like you belong and you're seen and you're validated,
which being seen and validated is such a powerful act. Yeah, no,
of course, I mean I don't know what I expected
in making this show. I think that's one thing if

(21:29):
you have an autistic brain, is like you're not doing
a whole lot of future thinking. You're you're doing a
lot of present work, but you're not necessarily thinking about
like well, how does this impact you down the road,
and how are you going to think about it and
how are you going to feel? And it's like, no,
I'm really enjoying this work right now, Like I'm really
enjoying like writing, and I'm really enjoying talking to all

(21:50):
the people, and I'm really enjoying the construction of it,
and then you're like, oh wait, like I'm gonna end
up getting a lot of email from people, and I'm
gonna end up getting a lot of d MS from people,
and I'm going to end up getting a lot of
you know, just people being like, you know, you're also
have a d h D or somebody being like and
I'm like okay, thanks, thanks, thanks dr Internet, or or

(22:14):
like people being like you don't have to just be
your diagnosis and I'm like I'm not. I'm good. Then
the you know, that's just a couple of people. But then,
like I have had so many people feel exactly the
way that I did, which is that like, oh yeah,
sure you found you found your people on that like

(22:36):
you got married, you have kids, you have a job
that you love, you know, but you hadn't never seen
your experience reflected back at you this very particular experience
and so you know, am I going to be best
friends with those folks? No? But they know then that
they are not, you know, like one of one. So

(22:56):
there is that solidarity there, whether or not we're in
a you know, in our in a tribe of people,
or or whether it's just like some person who made
a show that you connect with and you're like, okay,
like maybe now I'm one of two, you know, or
that like you know, I don't know. I find that

(23:17):
very gratifying because you know, for some people, like Okay,
you come out as X, or you decide that you're
X or whatever, and then you're like, I just want
to be around all those people. And it's like I
have a pretty full life. And you know, although I
do have an episode called will You Be My Autistic Friend?
Where I'm like, I probably should make some autistic friends
if I'm going to be this neurotype. But yeah, I

(23:42):
probably lost the throat in your original comment or question,
but so excuse me spending out, but you didn't. Actually
you stuck right to it, which is more than I
can often do. But this is this is actually this
leads me to a place that I wanted to go
in the beginning, but we we took off in another direction.
So this this idea of being seen versus not seen

(24:02):
right other verses accepted. And there's a there's an experience
that you had as a kid that you talked about
early on in the podcast, as a talkative kid in
a school system that really does not like talkative children.
You tell a story in the podcast about being put
in a box on Halloween, basically cut off from seeing
or being seen during a Halloween school party. Can you

(24:25):
tell me about that? Yeah, sure, just a little background.
I mean, it was constantly being punished in school for
talking too much. And my report card always said, you know,
Lauren has a failure to maintain self control, which, like,
wouldn't that beyond any elementary schools elementary schoolers report card?
But anyway, you know, I mean my I was often

(24:46):
sent out of the classroom to sit in the hall
by myself on the floor, or one time, not one time,
a couple of times my desk was put out in
the hall. I don't know how you learn from a hallway,
but that's where my desk was, or was next to
the teacher, or was at the back of the classroom.
So I was fairly known, you know, as as a
kid who was in trouble. But I never thought of

(25:08):
myself as a bad kid, and my parents didn't think
of me as a bad kid. It was just like
a kid who talked too much and it was up
to the teachers to deal with it. And so one
day and like my sixth grade year, and my teacher
had basically taken what amounted to like a refrigerator box
and cut one side off of it and cut the

(25:28):
top off of it and sort of made this partition
or or like a screen, like a cardboard screen around
my desk and put my desk in the back of
the classroom so that I can't couldn't see any of
my classmates and they couldn't see me. I couldn't see
the board or anything like that. And I remember this,
it's sort of burned into my brain because one of

(25:49):
the days that that I was in this box was
Halloween when we had our Halloween party, and I had
dressed up as Peppy long Stalking and and you can't see,
but I have Ginger Hay Aaron when I was younger.
It was very very bright red. My mom had braided
copper wire into it, and I really had just the
sort of the most best costume. And you know, at

(26:10):
a time, like on a day, a day of all days,
when you're supposed to be seen, you're like back in
the back of the classroom, like with this box around you.
I mean, the teacher might have taken it down for
like the Halloween party, but for the most part, like
I was just hidden. And it's humiliating. It's humiliating because
there's deep shame in your parents experiencing your punishment or

(26:34):
you know, now I'm taking on their emotions and I
don't know what they felt at the time. But for me,
I remember, like like I said before, burned into my
brain as this, you know, the shame, this deep shame.
And you know, I don't think that I in my
sort of high school or college years, I've ever given
any thought. And then you know, when you become an adult,

(26:57):
a responsible adult, and go therapy, you know, you're trying
to understand why you feel like garbage about yourself for
your entire life, and there has to be a root somewhere,
you know. So this image kept popping up for me,
and I thought, wow, like actually actually sort of doing
that type of separation is really damaging to a child.

(27:21):
And when I tell teacher friends now, they're like, what
excuse me? What, like what happened to you? And I
also understand that like I have never been a teacher,
like in a classroom where I had to manage you know,
a bunch of you know, screaming like ten year olds.
I imagine it's very difficult. And if you have one
child who's disruptive like that throws your whole system off.

(27:45):
So I don't want to like punch the teacher in
the face. But I'm also like, you know, get like,
I'm glad, I'm glad. I'm glad. Classroom management has uh
come some way since the eighties, some some ways in
some classroom. Yeah, I mean there's a there's a reality
in there that you just mentioned that the US educational
public educational system is a management issue and that if

(28:09):
there is somebody who is doing something that is difficult
to manage in a group, you have to address it, right. So, like,
what I hope has changed is that management addressing those
things that make hordes of ten year olds challenging to
manage has has sort of evolved, passed that into more
support services and support for educators and all of these things.

(28:32):
But like when I heard that story on your podcast,
this is exposing some nursery here, but it made it
made me think about shunning as a social control practice.
And whenever I think about shunning, I think about an
episode of Star Trek where I believe Warf was shunned
by his Klingon brethren wore so far out of my realm.

(28:57):
It's all right, I can bring this. I can bring
it back to this bidding. I'm I'm very excited for
this to get wheeled back in. Yeah, oh, I can
do it. I can weel most things back in. That's
one of my special things. But this is also a
practice in the Amish community, although they don't according to Wikipedia,
it's rare that they use it. Now. The Jehovah's witnesses
do this. But this public relational shunning thing, like the

(29:19):
your experience of being put in a box where you
can't see anyone and nobody is allowed to see you.
First of all, what kind of message does that send
to the observer kids in that room, like anybody who
is different, we must make them disappear. Don't talk to them,
don't look at them. They're a terrible person. So we're
actually you know, the punishment isn't just on the child

(29:41):
in the box. The punishment is also for the rest
of the community there, and how we have warped their
little minds to experience difference as a thing to be
ashamed of. Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, I grew up
Catholic like, you know, you don't have communication munic you know,
is like excommunicated from the students. Um, I didn't go

(30:04):
to I went to a bullbook school. I did not
go to Catholic school. But sort of, yeah, I mean
that concept of like, I mean, that's how you keep
the majority being the majority, Like, that's how you keep
the control. That's how you show everyone this is how
we do it, like we need we need a critical
massive people to be doing the right thing at all times,
otherwise the system falls apart. And it's like, well, what

(30:25):
if you just gave people the tools to do the
things that were good for them? You know. Look, I
mean they're probably some very creative ways. I'm not an educator,
so I don't know, you know, but there are probably
some very creative ways where you get the chattiest kid
in class to get all their chatting out at a

(30:46):
particular time and then bargain, make deals whatever. Okay, you
get your time to do this here, and when we
were in this situation, you do X, and maybe you
can't do X for an hour, but maybe you can
do it for half an hour without talking. So what
are the ways? I mean? You know, I'm two minds

(31:07):
of this because when I'm like, what was wrong with
that teacher? And then also I'm like, there just weren't
a lot of resources, and there aren't a lot of
resources for teachers, and and at the time there were
no resources really for parents, and there are more resources
for parents now. So I'm not like, I'm not like, oh,
you know, jeez, like my parents relation should have taken

(31:27):
me to get help, because what helped was there? Right,
especially when you know they you know, they know so
little about neuro divergence in women and girls and people
who are not men are boys, So what were you what?
You know, you can be upset that it happened, but
also know that there weren't a whole lot of options.

(31:49):
There were cultures and systems, and cluelessness is in place
and there still are, right, Like, our our goal here
is to become more and more where and more adaptive
and more inclusive, and to to start adopting practices that
help people who don't fit into those must be managed

(32:10):
situations cope with a situation that is discordant to the
way that they work, right, Like that that is a thing, right,
Like I understand that the way that you interact with
the world is to talk talk talk talk talk, talk talk,
and we have a place for that. This right here
is not the place for that. So how can you
help yourself keep your words to yourself at this time?

(32:31):
That is a very different approach, and like get into
this box totally, totally, and you know, approaching people with
sort of grace and kindness and accommodation a lot of
times takes so much overriding of the things that you've
learned and the thing the ways that you have been
parented or taught or whatever, or you know, it doesn't
take into account your own trauma or the own your

(32:53):
own things that you're bringing into it. If you have
all the tools and you still don't do the right things,
like get out of here, you know. But if you
don't have the tools, how can anybody be expected to
like be doing the right thing? And I mean I think,
like thank God for therapy, and thank God that I've

(33:13):
had the resources to be able to go to therapy
and to have some really great therapists. I mean, not
in an insubstantial cost, but like if I'm working on
the tools and I still fall to pieces, well then
that's that's on me. Yeah, it's an interesting collaborative way
of looking at being human. Here, I want to go

(33:35):
back to just one thing and then go into my
into our discussion about like the collaborative act of being human.
But like you mentioned it to when we were talking
about your experience as a child, how do you not
come out of an experience like that thinking that this
is your fault? Right? You mentioned that earlier that you
know so much of your adult life was like internalized

(33:57):
shame and I'm bad and why are things easier for me?
And basically where am I failing? And I feel like
that's a narrative that so many of us have, like
an interior monologue of you're the one who's screwy, so
you know, buck up and try harder. And that's certainly
a message that we give people across Okay, spectrum is

(34:19):
maybe the wrong word to use here, but like, because
I mean the spectrum of humanity, right, Why why are
you failing the cultural storyline of happy, resilient, communicative in
a happy relationship? Like we have this idea that any
time we're failing that cultural ideal, it's because of our
own personal failings, and that really gets cemented in the

(34:39):
ways that we talk about any kind of human difference
or human difficulty. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm I'm
reading them right now. Um My buddy Alice Wong, who's
an amazing disability justice warrior, has this fantastic new memoir
out called The Year of the Tiger, and in it,
you know, this is sort of an idea that she

(35:01):
talks a lot about. It's like, first of all, it's
sort of deeply capitalist and ablest to be, like, this
is the one way of doing things, and if you're
not doing it this way, then you're failing and you're
not productive, and you're not a good little citizen, you know,
making widgets for your nation, you know. And I think that,

(35:23):
you know, in reading her book, it's very inspiring because
it's like, no, I get to be how I want
to be in the world, and there should be ways
that I can do that that are humane and that
that accommodate for me and for other people, and that like,
you know, I don't have to think of myself as

(35:43):
bad or lesser than because I'm not doing the exact
thing that everybody else is doing. And also I have
my own way of doing things and their systems in
place that allow me to do that and and take
into account, you know, the things that I need. I mean,
it's weird this sort of one size fits all American approach,
especially given how the breadth and depth of of the

(36:07):
population in this country. It's like, why do we think
that there's like one way to work, one way to
go to school, you know, one way to show up
in the world as a friend, as a partner, as
a this as that's like it's so limiting, but so
much of it. I don't know if it's like fear
or the lack of creativity or curiosity that like puts

(36:30):
us all like everybody has to be on the same
track and if you're not, you're this you know, you're
bad like it, But it's so I don't know, it's
just like a really tiny way to live, I think.
But then that's another thing to like feel bad about him,
Like why do I feel shame about feeling shame? You know?
It's like oh boy and the endless thoughts cycles. Yeah,

(36:54):
but this, I mean, this is a really important point
here that we do sort of pop psychology the A
p A like we have this there is one correct way,
and the messaging that so many of us got and
get is if you are not that one correct, accepted way,
then you're the problem, right, And we see this. We

(37:17):
see this anytime somebody is like upset about something or
having feelings about something, it's like, well, no, you know,
look on the bright side and cheer yourself up, or
or even like in the disability community, in lots of
different ways, it's like have you tried broccoli? Right? Or
like if you just use these coping skills that I
learned about on Google, then you could be normal like

(37:37):
me like this like undercurrent of yes, we celebrate diversity,
but if you would just try x, y and z,
you could be a lot more like the masses. Whoever,
the masses are right right? Yeah? I mean analysis book,
you know. She she she cites some research about, you know,
serving people with physical disabilities, like do you want to

(38:00):
be different? And a lot of people are like, no,
I'm good, I'm not the problem. The society is the
problem and culture is the problem. And then accessibility is
the problem. It's not the person who has a different
need than you as the problem, but it's also a
thinking that like people want to be able to set
themselves apart from people who are not like them and

(38:21):
being able to, you know, look at anyone with a
disability and be like, oh, their lives are so hard,
like oh, they must be struggling so much, and they
must like hate themselves or thank god, I'm not like that,
you know. And it's like, what do you know of
those people? You don't know anything about anyone like you
know about yourself, you know about your own community, Like
everyone's got a sack of rocks and you can only

(38:41):
see into yours. Like and look, I mean I'm talking
as if like I'm some saying here I am not
like I'm a deeply judgmental asshole a lot of the time,
and you hear it. But also it's it's been it's
learned behavior in a lot of ways. You know, it's
a lot of learned behavior. It's a lot of how
you've been treated and you turn it on other people.
It's like such basic, you know, human psychology. It's almost

(39:05):
embarrassing to mention we're doing the best that we can,
you know, so at least I recognize that is the thing, right,
Like that is the thing. It's not about not being judgmental,
like our brains are meant to assess which is another
word for judge. Right, it's are you aware of how
you're using your instinctual judgment? Are you catching those things

(39:29):
that that being a human in this culture has taught you, right,
that this is the wrong way to be, or that
this is something to be ashamed of. Like can you
interrupt that sort of subconscious process and say, oh wait
a second, I'm making an assessment or a judgment here, Um,
is that really warranted? Is that really accurate? Can I
be curious about the person in front of me or

(39:50):
curious about my own experience instead of making a judgment
about it based on soaking up this culture that does
not like any nuance. Yeah, I mean there are certain
things that like I will be immovable on in my judgment,
like you cannot where white socks straight men with a
suit like you can't. You can't. So diving into this

(40:13):
stuff and talking about how we as a culture as
a society handled difference, looking at your own history of
you know, being another person, and then learning things that
make you think about that in different ways or understand
it in different ways. Like that's it's a lot of
stuff to absorb any sort of self reflection, self analysis,

(40:35):
like that's a lot to absorb. And then you start reading,
like you know, other writing by folks with disabilities, and
like just start to see how okay, this is totally
me talking here, but like you start to see how
mean the world is or how mean the world can feel.
So two questions. One has the world felt mean to

(40:57):
you to read this work? Because sometimes the world feels
I mean to me, not mean to me personally, but
the world does mean and too. Regardless of your answer
to question one, what does hope look like for you?
If hope exists at all? So question one, okay, let
me let me do because I can only handle one
question attack Is the world mean? You know? I think

(41:19):
that like like mean implies intent, right, Like there's an
intention to be cruel, and I think there are a
lot of ways in which individual people exist in a
state of cruelty, But I don't know that it comes
from nothing, you know. Is the world a mean place?

(41:40):
Is the state a mean place? Like? I think in
some ways? Sure, I mean, I looked at so many
videos of autistic people and other people with neurodevelopmental differences
who are institutionalized, like in the fifties, and that's like
as mean and brutal as it gets. It's really hard

(42:03):
because there are a lot of people who probably worked
in those facilities and thought that they were doing the
best that they could with folks, and then you look
at the ways in which people were experimented on against
their will or against their knowledge or all that stuff,
and you're like, that seems like cruel and devious and evil,

(42:25):
you know, So I don't know, I mean, it's hard. Like,
since I've done this project in my own life, like
I've been met with mostly very warm feelings from my
friends or people who I've you know, I knew in
a former life, for you know, I used to work
with a million years ago or something who have sort

(42:46):
of come out the would work and been very kind
and very understanding and very interested and curious. I don't
want to dwell a lot in sort of how things
were or how things I mean, even though you're like,
I'm literally a podcast that starts with like, you know,
sixth grade, I'm like, still holding on. I guess it's
my desire to not hold onto those things in my

(43:08):
personal life. And I can only really speak to my
own life. I can't speak to how people sort of
feel systemically about certain things, you know. But for me,
I'm like, I just want to find a way to
be like an okay person now, you know, And how
can I be okay with the people who are around me?

(43:29):
Like how can I be okay with my partner and
my friends and my family? Like how can I just
show up in a way that makes me feel good
about me? Because I can't control, you know, I can't
control what else is going on, you know, and so
like I can't control the world beyond you know, my
little house. So for me, it's important to like have

(43:53):
tools where I can both you know that can they
can help me manage, but that can also help me
advocate for the things that I need. Like if I
need to leave a party because I can't handle the
noise or the stress or whatever, I both put it
out there, you know, two people, Like this is how
I am. Like if I'm gonna irish goodbye, I'm gonna

(44:14):
irish goodby you, and like it's not you, it's me,
And that's fine. I can know in that, But also
you can be empathetic. You know. My partner and I
went to a wedding recently, and like we literally like
said to the people like we're probably gonna Irish gouldby
you and they're like no, and we're like yeah, yeah,
Like we'll pretend like we're gonna come. Like I can
say I'm gonna say a boy to you, but I'm not.

(44:35):
I'm just gonna leaves right right. And I think like
managing expectations and letting people know, you know, but it's
a two way street, I think, you know. And so
I hope that that's what this podcast does to people
who are not autistic or neurodivergent listen to it, is
like they're like, oh right, like just one more way

(44:55):
of being in the world. And I can respect that.
If somebody said is that they need something different, or
they need something less loud, or they need something you know,
with without any egg plant in it, like that's me,
that's I'm sorry, that's just no egg plant. No egg
plant for me, no egg plant for you. Noted you

(45:16):
kind of did answer both questions in a way I
forgot there was a second question about hope. Yeah, and
I'm going to let you answer it even more if
you want to. Also, where I heard you go with
what you just said was like I can control my
sphere of things and what I want in my sphere
of things is for people to have some empathy and

(45:38):
some interest and some curiosity in learning who I am
and what I need for myself, and that we can
sort of co co build these relationship systems, these ecosystems
where we're curious about differences and we respect the needs
of others and ourselves. Yeah. I mean, look, when I
first got the diagnosis and was like really just steeping

(46:01):
in it, I was like I need a wide berth,
like I need a very wide birth, Like everyone around
me just need to like accept everything, and like you
just need to understand because now I understand this about myself,
and like, if I show up late to your dinner party,
it's not because I don't like you, it's just I
can't deal with time management. I mean, my partner and
I ended up having a lot of conflict around that

(46:21):
time because I was just like, like I can't be
accountable for anything, Like I just need to be me,
you know, and that's not how a partnership works. But
also I think it was just a real desire to like, oh,
now that I know this thing about myself, I need
everybody else to like get with the program. And it's like, okay, well,
people aren't going to just get with the program. You know,

(46:43):
as much as I like, I have a real, like
extreme anxiety slash phobia of sitting in a window seat
in an airplane. And it's a relatively new anxiety that
I learned one time where I was sat in the
window seat and had a panic attack such that I
told the flight attendant that I needed to be taken
off a plane unless I got my seat change. Like
I was fully in panic mode, and luckily some very

(47:06):
nice gentleman next to me was like, it's okay, Like
I'll just switch with you. It's no big deal. And
so as much as I would like to be able
to just say if my ticket says you're in the window,
I could just say the flight attendant, hey, I'm autistic.
I can't really manage window seats, and they'd be like
super like, we'll switch you at the end and have
it be like a very frictionless interaction. That would be

(47:27):
my dream. But it isn't my dream. I mean, it's
not a reality. I feel like you did answer the
question about hope, even if the word hope is a
strange package, and I honestly This is why hope is
a theme for this season, because I think that the
word hope is a strange package. And uh, you know,
the things that you want for yourself, the things that
you describe that you want for yourself and for the

(47:49):
people you care about, sounds very hopeful, right, like something
to move into. Yeah, I feel very much like I'm
a closet optimist, Like don't tell anyone but am And
so you know, I really do have that that, you know,
sort of ridiculous maxim of you know, as I live,
I hope kind of in my brain. To me, what

(48:11):
that is is resilience, and it's grit, and it's like
clawing towards something better. And look, I'm not I'm never
going to be an activist, Like I'm not going to
be an activist like my friend Alice Wong. And I'm
not going to be an activist like so many like
amazing people who you know, blaze trails and and and

(48:31):
and made our world a better place. But like I
feel like as showing up as a person who can
articulate a particular way of being and hopefully people will
see that, like these words that we have aren't that
scary or the things that we think about ability or disability,

(48:52):
they aren't necessarily true, you know. And I always live
in hope that like I be, you know, I personally
like have a less stressful a life with less friction, uh,
you know, and that things are just easier, and a
lot of that work is me and a lot of
it is sort of is the world. You know. What

(49:13):
I can do is like I can manage my little house,
I can manage my little friendships, I can manage my
little neighborhood interactions, like I can manage how I show
up in the world. I want to treat people in
his sort of Pollyanna's as it sounds like how I
would like to you know, be treated and model that
behavior to the extent that I can and my you know,

(49:34):
my personal professional relationships. But you know, it's a process.
That's why we that's why we pay therapists, and the
therapist thank you. But this this is also like this
is actually a good closing point here because we were
sort of came back around to the beginning where we
were talking about what it means to be seen and
what it means to be mothered. Right, So paying attention

(49:57):
to the things that are under your control, looking at
who you are and how you are in the world,
and navigating that with the sort of spheres of social
connection that are around you, your most intimate people in
your community, and your whatever we call them the secondary contacts,
like making that world as supportive and frictionless and kind

(50:20):
as you possibly can and letting that be seen. Right,
I mean, we know, we know what modeling is for
human the human brain. Like we we watch and we
learn things and we learn how to be human by
watching other humans. So in that way, I hate to
break it to you, but you are an activist. You

(50:44):
are you are, But it doesn't mean you have to
do anything else that It's not a mantle of responsibility
that you then need to pick up. But the point
here is that telling the story makes something visible that
isn't always visible. And when we make something visible, it
allows other people to be curious about it and to
try it on for themselves, and that to me is

(51:05):
a really hopeful thing. Yeah, thank you. I I appreciate that.
I mean, I think you know. And we did start
by talking about how why you know to make this project,
and I think one thing I did think it was
like I have access, I have a platform. I've done
this before. I know the right people, and like that
is a huge barrier for for people getting their own

(51:28):
sort of stories out. And it's like, in some way,
it's like the very least I could do. It's a
thing that I knew how to do, right, Like I
don't know how to be an activist like a rabble rouser,
but I do know how to tell stories, and I
do know how to create space for you know, difference,

(51:52):
I think, and I could do that for my own
story and hopefully some people are like, yeah, right on,
like that's that's my experience, too cool, and then they
like forget about and move on to another podcast because
that's what we do. So that is what we do.
It has been so good to talk to you. So
I'm going to link to everything that you mentioned, including

(52:14):
Alice's book in the show notes. But let people know
where to find your show and where to find you
and whatever else you want them to know. Yeah, our
show is the Loudest Girl in the World. It is
available on all of your favorite podcast platforms. It is
a production of Pushkin Industries and I Heart Media. I
am on all social platforms at Ober and out drop

(52:37):
my line let me know what you think of the
show or whatever dumb things I said here because they're playing.
We'll tag you when we put up our our media
things so that you know if people have comments they
can get you. Oh. I thought that you were going
to say, we're going to tag you when you say
something dumb and then people can have just like a
really easy pipeline to get to you about that would
be completely out of character meanness for me. All Right,

(53:00):
stay tuned. Everybody will be right back for your questions
to carry with you after this break. Hey, before we
get to your questions to carry with you this week,
I want to tell you about a new clinical training
starting this December. If you have ever felt like a

(53:21):
deer in the headlights when a client or a patient
starts talking about grief or some other intense, immovable experience, well, okay, one,
you are definitely not alone in feeling like you don't
know how to handle it and to this intensive training
will give you the skills you need to support people
when their life goes horribly wrong, whether that's in big
ways or in smaller ones. All of the information about

(53:45):
this training with me is at Megan Divine dot c
O registration is open right now, and for real, this
is not a market employ but class size is really limited.
It's open to only forty eight people, and I know
that more than half of those spots are already gone.
So if you want and check it out now, Megan
Divine dot CEO, all right now to your questions to

(54:06):
carry with you until we meet again. This season has
a running theme, and it is more obvious in some
episodes than others. This season is all about hope, finding it,
losing it, redefining it, and fighting for it. And you
know what I really loved in this episode, Lauren couldn't
really get into the concept of hope. It wasn't really

(54:29):
a thing that she understood or that she felt like
was sort of available to her. What she did say
is she is quote clawing towards something better. Clawing towards
something better. I think that's often the best thing available
to us, right with everything going on, with all of
the friction points and the hardships and the small beautiful

(54:50):
things going away, like the favorite restaurant that Laurel mentioned.
Clawing towards something better for yourself and the people in
your life. I think that's the most radical hope option.
We have to want something better and a fight for it.
What's stuck with you from this episode today? What parts

(55:12):
made you think about your own childhood, the places of
friction in your life, or your own brain wiring in
new or different ways. Everybody's going to take something different
from today's show, but I do hope you found something
to hold onto. Hope really is a crowdsourced thing. Talking
about all of this stuff helps, So I hope this

(55:32):
conversation encourages you to have your own conversations about difficult
things in your own life. If it does, I want
to hear about it. Check out Refuge in Grief on
Instagram or here after Pod on TikTok to see video
clips from this show and leave your thoughts in the
comments on those posts. That's a good way to be
in touch with me. Also, be sure to tag me

(55:52):
in your conversation starting posts on your own social accounts.
Use the hashtag here after Pod on all the platforms.
That's how I can find you. The whole team loves
to see where this show takes you. If you want
to tell us how today's show felt for you, or
you have a request or a question for upcoming explorations
of difficult things. Give us a call at three to

(56:14):
three six four three three seven six eight and leave
a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find the
number in the show notes or visit Megan Divine dot
c O. If you'd rather send an email, you can
do that too. Write on the website Megan Divine dot co.
We want to hear from you. I want to hear
from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together

(56:39):
we can make things better even when they can't be
made right. If you like the show, please remember to
subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Leave a review so
other people take a chance on the show and listen
and tell your friends, tell everybody. It's gonna take all
of us to make this a much more beautiful and

(57:00):
communicative world. Want more hereafter. Grief education doesn't just belong
to end of life issues. As my dad says, daily
life is full of everyday grief that we don't call grief.
Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or
platitudes or dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone,
especially if you're in any of the helping professions. If

(57:23):
you are in the helping professions. You can join me
for a six month training intensive to learn ways to
be truly helpful to your clients and your patients and
your colleagues. There are only a handful of spots left,
so check out Megan Divine dot ce for details. Hereafter
With Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine.

(57:44):
Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fossio.
Logistical and social media support from Micah, Edited by Houston
Tilly and music provided by Wave Crush. Background noise Today
provided by children playingly er tag outside my window

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Host

Megan Devine

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Neurodivergence & Being Seen, Not Shamed with Lauren Ober, host of “The Loudest Girl in the World