August 26, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of Just Heal with Dr. Jay, Dr. Jay Barnett sits down with Raymond Santana, one of the exonerated members of the Central Park Five, for a powerful and deeply moving conversation. Together, they explore Santana’s journey from wrongful conviction to becoming a voice for justice and change. They unpack the psychological toll of incarceration, the long path toward healing, and the role of education and advocacy in transforming pain into purpose. Santana reflects on forgiveness, resilience, and the importance of community support, while also sharing his current mission of stepping into public office. The episode underscores the ongoing nature of healing, the necessity of empathy, and the collective responsibility of building understanding within our communities. Tune in and join the conversation in the socials below.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect podcast Network and iHeartRadio. What's Up, Family,
My name is doctor J Bornett, mental health expert and
marriage and family therapist. Listen. I'm excited to welcome you
guys to another episode of the Just Heal with Doctor
J podcasts, brought to you by the Black Effect Network
(00:23):
and iHeartMedia. I'm excited about this guest that I get
to sit down and talk with today. As you know,
the Just Heal is a space for us to foster
healing and to create conversations that will enlighten and enrich
the mind of our listeners and our viewers. Because also
we do have a YouTube channel, Just Heal Doctor J,
(00:46):
so go and subscribe there. And also wherever you listen
to podcasts, please tap in on the Black Effect Network
and iHeartMedia and Apple. Again, wherever you listen to podcasts,
please tap in with us. So I'm excited to bring
this guest. Many of you have seen the story, some
(01:07):
of you had an opportunity to watch the docuseries that
was so beautifully done by the actors, and I'm excited
to have one of the five brothers from the Central
Park five with us today in the studio, my brother
Raymond Santana. Welcome, Man, thank you, thank you for having me.
(01:27):
So I just want to go briefly Man in your bio,
because you are an activist that many may not know,
entrepreneur and of course one of the five EXONERATD five
formerly known as the Central Park five, and in nineteen
eighty nine, Santana was wrongfully convicted along with the four
(01:47):
other black and Latino teenagers in the infamous Central Park
Joggas case, and after serving nearly seven years in prison
for a crime he did not commit, he was exonerated
in two thousand and two when the real perpetrator confessed
and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt. Now, just reading that
(02:11):
evoked some emotions within me internally, because I couldn't imagine
what it's like to not only be considered as a
suspect for a crime that you did not commit, but
to not only be a suspect, but then to go
to convicted and having to serve time in the prison,
(02:35):
and me being in the mental health space, and having
worked with individuals that are in the system, having worked
with individuals that have received a number of years mentally
and psychologically, man, I just I don't know how I
would be able to process that. And here you are today, brother,
(02:57):
you look well. Man, you're looking good, look like you
age and.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Backwards trying man.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Maybe not trying, man, you're doing black man, you're doing.
Always say if you try, you would never start.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's right, That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So no, man, So if you could just you know, man,
just talk to the audience, and of course we're gonna
unpack it a little bit, but just you know, what
has been your journey psychologically, uh since coming home? And
of course it's many years ago, but just even as
you have, even as you have age as a black man.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, for me, I look back at the journey
right thirty plus years and it has been a journey
of continuous growth. Some of it, you know, out of
my hands. I have no you know, no way of
fighting it. Some things I can control. But I looked
at it as a thirty year process of growth. You know,
(03:51):
I was convicted at the age of fourteen, as a
fourteen year kid living in East Harlem. You know, I
never had no runners with the with the law. Didn't
know who Miranda was, right, you know, never had no dealings,
and so when this happens to me at the age
of fourteen, I'm completely blindsided because it was never no
pressure on me to choose a profession as a fourteen
year old kid, right right, you know, I loved this.
(04:13):
I was in my schedule book. I loved to listen
to hip hop music. Right back then, we had vhs,
so my dad would have me record movies for him.
I would record videos and watch videos. So I was
a typical fourteen year old kid. And on the night
of April nineteenth, you know, hanging out with friends, being
a follower, right, you know, the plan was to go
(04:34):
to the Shamberg Houses and there was a party over there,
and it was this nice little young honey that I
used to talk to back then, so I wanted to
go see your you know, going over to Shamberg Houses.
I didn't know the other four guys. I never met Yusuf,
didn't know Corey, didn't know Antroin, didn't know Kevin. All right,
this was a situation that happened because there was mutual
friends in the group. The Shamberg boys hung out, you know,
(04:57):
in front of their building all the time, so their
interest to Central Park was like their playground, right, And
so I went over there with a bunch of friends,
you know, trying to be tough. We you know, we
back then we're going to other neighborhoods. You came in
there with numbers, right, because that's just how things were
back then. And so you know, it was mutual friends
in the group and just hanging out with dudes in
(05:17):
the front of sean Berg led to go into the park.
And another thing was that originally I'm born in Harlem,
raised in the Bronx, and then.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I came back to Harlem. So when I come.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Back, I never really had dealings with Central Park. Wow,
So that was another thing. So here I was being
a follower or following the group into the park of
something that I really had no knowledge of, right, And
so I get arrested that night. And for us, we
you know, we're giving the death of parish ticket. It's
a family caught issue because we're charged with menacing truspassing riot.
(05:53):
So we're given like misdemeaned charges and so we're supposed
to be seeing the judge within two days. So now
we just got way for the family members to come
pick us up. And it's in the wee hours in
the morning, they find this woman who's bounding gagged in
the bloody mavine and she has lost so much, so
much blood that they're thinking it's going to be a
homicide case, right, And so this is how the Homicide
(06:14):
North Detective Square comes in, you know, to interrogate fourteen
and fifteen year old kids. And so the landscape was
un It was never even playing field, was never even
these were these are twenty year plus veterans. This was
the elite of the police force. We were fourteen to
fifteen year old kids who never dealt with the law.
They didn't even know what to expect in those interrogation rooms.
(06:35):
And then it just went hay white from there.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And you know when when when when when you're watching
the film on Netflix and the the interrogation room, Uh
was so emotional, man, And I'll be transparent, I cried
like a baby watching that because I could imagine being
(07:02):
a little black boy fourteen years old and the way
that you were cornered, yes, and you're just like, man,
I just want to go home. I don't know what happened.
I don't know what's going on. And to see to
see a young boy be in such a vulnerable state
and no one not be able to speak up for him.
(07:25):
What was that like if you could step back into
that man, because that scene in the interrogation room, man
carries such weight emotionally because you can feel it coming
off the stream.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, that's the part that we needed people to understand
because a lot of people throughout this whole process, people
always have that question of how do you confess to
something you didn't do? Right, and so everybody gets defensive.
But if it's me, I wouldn't I wouldn't say anything.
But it always comes due to experience.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right. Have you ever?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
You know, have you've been pulled over by the police,
You know you have certain certain expressions, whether you upset
or you afraid, right, because all dude experience. So for
us going into those interrogation rooms, it starts off calm right, Hey, Raymond,
you know you was out last night with some friends.
What did you see happen? Take us to the story, right,
and then you take them through the story of what
(08:17):
I saw, right, because I never seen no assaults and
stuff like that happen. And so then it becomes well,
wait a minute, what about this woman? And you go
what woman, And that's when you become blind sided. And
so you know, for us as fourteen to fifty ye
oh kids, it's estimated that we we are in those
interrogation rooms for fifteen to thirty hours, right yeah, well,
(08:39):
no food, no drink, you know, we're just in there
under pressure. And so for me, my grandmother sat in
the room with me, so a lot of times the
police had to interpret because she spoke. She spoke little English, right,
she knew English curse words, but she couldn't carry a
conversation and the envier so they would have to they
would have to stop and translate, and that became too long.
(09:00):
So now they figured off the way to get HOWD
through them. And then once they got out room is
when they start to work on me man. And that's
how it goes. It's something that happens over a long
period of time, and it gets you to a point
of helplessness so much that you feel like you are
caught it. You feel like there is no other way
around it, and to the point that you feel like
you're not even gonna make it out the priescst alive,
(09:22):
excuse me. And so for me, it's a point in
the film where you know, Detective Arroyal gets mad and
he bangs on the table and he reaches old because
he grabbed you, he wants to grab me, and at
that moment, I feel like he's gonna kill me. I
feel like he's you know, I'm not going to make
it out the precinct. And at that same moment, another
detective comes in and he stops them, right, and I
(09:43):
just felt like, whow he saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Right, and so and this is this is the good
cop backcop that we see on CSI Law in Order.
But back then we didn't understand that as fourteen year old.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
No right and then understand either the psychology on how
they play all of it. They're different questions.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, it didn't even know that there was a retechnique,
which is seven steps on how you get somebody to
confess like this stuff is legal. They can sit here
and lie to you, you know, they can sit here
and lie to you and tell you we have the DNA,
we don't need you. And so for me, when he
kicks that officer out the room and I feel like
he saved my life, here comes the pitch. You know, Raymond,
I know you a good kid. I know you ain't
(10:24):
do these things, but these kids, they are the priests
saying that you did something. And he's like, you know,
I need your help, right, And I don't even know
what to say as a fourteen year old kid, because
I've never been in no situation like this, So how
do you even start to describe it? And so he
pulls out this picture of Kevin Richardson and slides it
to me and says do you know him? And I
say no, and he says, well, you see the scratch
(10:46):
on an aye that came from the woman. Now I
know he going to prison, but I don't want you
to go to prison, so I need your help. And
then he just sat back and you know, in business, right,
the first person who talks is the one that loses.
I'm a fourteen year kid, this is it, right, So
in my mind I'm formulating a lie. How can I
stop this pressure from continuing?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And so then I go, okay, well it was Kevin
and he said okay, but what did Kevin do?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
So now he has to kind of walk me through it.
And this is what he does, even down to where
he says, he says, you know this woman had a
lot of injuries around her face and her eyes. We
didn't know she lost a lot of blood. Something had
to be used, Raimond, A rock, a brick, a pipe, something.
But at that moment, he's giving me options. He's telling me,
(11:36):
pick one. I don't know the injuries. I don't know
the severity of it, you know what I'm saying. I
don't even know what weapon is used. But he gave
me options. A rock, a brick, a pipe, something was used.
And I go, A brick was used, and he says, okay,
who used the brick? So now I gotta place somebody
with the brick, the brick, right and then and so
(11:56):
you go from that too. When you go to trial,
the brick is produced like this is the brick.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
It makes it.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
It makes the front page of the newspaper, you know,
and this is this, This is what we had to
deal with. You know, when you when you're going against
a whole system, a whole city that labels you as
as a wolf pack, as urban terrorists, as a wilding. Right,
(12:23):
what they did was they set they set the stage
so that America can be so mad and hurt by
us that they would turn their backs.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
On us, and which which takes me into this next question.
I've worked with the Latino community for a number of years.
That culture is a very tight knit culture. What was
that impact like with your family when the vertict before.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
The verdict, I mean, within the first two weeks of
this case, it's estimated that over three to four hundred
articles was written about us, dissecting the lives of fourteen
and fifteen year old kids, how we were this, how
we were with these bad app bad apples, Right, So
it set the stage for people to to, you know,
to you know, Donald Trump puts out the eighty five
(13:14):
thousand dollars page ad calling for the death penalty pap
u can and writes an article where he says that Corey,
who's the oldest, needs to be hung in Central Park
and the rest of us need to be horsewhipped. In
eighty nine to ninety, people are calling for our castration,
people calling for us to die. We received numerous death threats,
and so it becomes extra hard on the family, right.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I came from a big family.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
My dad has three brothers on one side, my mama
has five six, and my bill was twenty five thousand.
Nobody wanted to put up the money because they believed
the narrative. The narrative was hit so hard that people
took it hook line and sinker, even their family, even
the family and knowing that you were this fourteen year
old kid that loved music, were making movies for your dad,
(14:01):
and everybody bought into the narrative.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Dad Raymond did it? Yeah, the guilty of something. Man,
how was d.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I mean coming from a strong culture, right, I'm Puerto Rican?
And so the whole family turns their back. Nobody wants
to assist. I go through the system, right, I write
Puerto Rican Defense Fund, I write legal a no answer.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right. For the first ten years of this.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Case, it isn't even documented that I'm a Puerto Rican kid.
Everybody believes that it's five black boys. They don't even
makenowledge them on Puerto Rican. And this is how it goes,
you know. And so it isn't until years later I
meet a psychologist and he says, you Puerto Rican.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I go yeah, and he says, wow, all these years
we never knew this. Wow, I never was documented.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And I'm sitting here, you know, putting myself in the
shoes as a black man and I remember at fourteen
parents are divorced, and I'm thinking about as an adolescent,
when you experience those traumas in those adolescent years, what
it does to you psychologically and physiologically, because now the
(15:14):
brain has been reprogrammed. Yes, and once it's been reprogrammed,
there's such a work that has to be done because
you can't talk your way out of the freedom of
what you've experienced, because not only were you in prison
from a physical perspective, but also mentally and emotionally. And
(15:39):
I know you can't unpack all of this, but that process, man,
just and I want to think about this question because
I want to ask, did you ever forgive your family
or is that still the process?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Later on, once we get to the ken Burns Dock, we're
doing the run with the doc. Some of my family
members and they was in California and they came to visit.
We was at the AI Festival AFI Festival, and they
came to visit and they got to see the doc
and and some of them apologize, wow, you know, and
(16:16):
at that point I accept the apology because you can't
just stay bidter forever right that that, you know, like
Yousuf always said that if you stay btter, then it
eats you from within.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
But what is that when they said that they were sorry,
how did your body respond to that apology?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You know, it's a I told you so, right, It's
one of those moments like I told.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You like you didn't believe me?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, And you gotta let them sit in that for
a little bit, right, They got to feel that fire.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And for those that are listening, it really wasn't the
man that was saying I told you so. It was
a fourteen year old huner that was saying I told
you yeah, he gets to speak. Now listen now now
not not not now, you in my in my I
feel because I don't think we realize that most times
(17:05):
when we have experienced things as adolescents and children, and
when we become adults and when there is a moment
of liberation, though it is the adult speaking, but it's
really the child's voice, or it's the adolescent voice, or
it's the voice of the innocent one, the one that
you know, we were exploited in that moment of vulnerability.
(17:29):
And what I'm loving about this Raymond, is that the
fourteen year old Raymond got a moment to speak for himself.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, No, I knew that. I knew that that was
that was heavy. I knew that that's and he gets
it several times. He doesn't just get that one. Yes, Yes,
it's that moment several times.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Man, No, that's.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Important that he has that moment. It's a several times.
I'm just just so excited to hear because you know,
as a therapist, I've said with you know so many
different clients that that have come from many different walks
of life. But what I'm enjoying about this is I
can feel that your soul is liberated. Yeah, Like I
(18:09):
can feel it because because I don't care when nobody
say you can you can tell when somebody is still
bound by something, yes, And I can tell that your
soul is liberated, uh, and that your spirit is free.
What is that like for you?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
For me going through the process, right, you know, it's
like you're kid not having a voice and then at
some point having a voice, and then understanding what the
voice is supposed to do, right, and then utilizing the voice.
Like I said, it's a constant thing of growth. And
so for me, it's it's a powerful moment, you know,
(18:47):
because it's it's it's it's always it's always a constant.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Level of growth.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Keep calling my phone. There's always a constant level of growth.
And and for me with the motive becomes like it's
like because you have all these downs, up and down,
up and down, but understand that they supposed to happen, right,
understanding that it's a part of the process.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
It's how you view it, right, what you put into it. Right.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I had to learn that in prison, right, because you're
not going anywhere. So when you stuck, but what do
you The work that you put in is hopefully the
growth that you get laiter on, you know what I'm saying.
And that took me a minute to understand that. So
it's it's it's the constant up and downs, but understanding
that you do got to have those ups and downs
in order to build some type of growth.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Man, When when you were incarcerated, did you read any books?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What? What book? I gotta know this what book that
you read that stood out to you and that really
shifted your perspective.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
It's a moment. It's I you know, when I'm in prison,
I wound up going to because at the time they
had the GD program. So I get the gd program
and then there's a college program at that. I mean,
this is before BOTTACKI comes in in ninety five and
he pulls the college program out of prisons. And so
I remember taking this Black studies class and there was
(20:09):
a professor by the name of Latif Islam who was
a Tarwan figure, deep voice. When he spoke, everybody listened, right,
And that kind of sparked me a little bit because
it was an authority figure. And so he gave us
this book for the syllabus, but also on the syllabus
was like five other books. And I remember being a
(20:29):
smart act smart alicant class and saying, why you give
us all these books if we only use it one?
And he says, young brother, you don't understand it right now,
but one day you will. It will be a part
of your arsenal. And I looked at him like a whatever.
And it wasn't until I got through that class.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That kind of sparked something in me to understand what
happened to me and how that plays into you know,
into into into into the modern times. And then I
went and looked at the books, right, and you know,
there's always the Malcolm X right Biography of Malcolm X,
which is like basic, that's the foundation. And then there
(21:09):
was a miseducation or Negro by Carline G. Wilson, People's
History by how It's in right.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
These are great books, great books.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Of conspiracy to destroy Black Boys, Virus one, two, and three.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And so I gave those books to my daughter. My
daughter reads those books now. I still have them to
this day. I don't even know how they've been with
me all these years, but they have survived. And my
daughter they now enjoyed it, so she reads them now.
And so those books started to shape right, the mentality
(21:41):
of wait a minute, something, something happened to us. This
was a sinister plan and it worked. And now I'm
sitting here serving time trying to figure out how right
Because now I'm growing in the system. I don't leave
exit that system until I'm twenty one, so I'd get
(22:01):
to do a lot of effect and a lot of
growth there. And those become the books.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, those become the books.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
And I think is imperative for brothers that are listening
and for the women that love the brothers, it's imperative
to encourage brothers not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
Seek knowledge, not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
(22:28):
And also to seek growth because I run into a
lot of brothers man that have not grown beyond leaving
high school or their greatest moments. And to hear you
because one of my favorite books is The Miseducation of
a Negro by Cartigie Wilson, who is the grandfather of
Black history. You do not have to concern yourself with
(22:49):
what a man do if you can control how a
man thinks. I mean, I'm just like, dude, give me more.
And just to think about your growth today. You're a
healing journey which is continuous. And to think about where
you are now running for office, when you think about
(23:10):
your legacy and you think about your path over the
past thirty years, Man, give me three words that stands
out to you.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I sometimes unbelievable to see how far unthinkable.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Right if somebody sat there and said, hey, you're going
to go through this in thirties from now, you're going
to be here, I would have been like crazy, Wow,
I wouldn't even take the chance. Nah, I'm good, I'll
go to other directions.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Right, But the ups and downs again, the positives that
come out of this process that turned into motivational factors, right,
me having a daughter, me investing in her, right, turning
her to an entrepreneur, and and she listens, right and
(24:07):
for me, even when you get to office, Like I
never thought i'd be ready for office. I knew I
was an activist because I fought against the criminal justice
system for so many years, and I knew that was
my lane, and I knew I had a voice, and
I knew I had a platform, and I knew that
I can help, right, But I never.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Thought public office would be the way.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
But when I looked at it, it became a natural
form of progression. Right, fought against the system for all
these years. One I get to relax for a little bit,
I get to decompress. But then I start to feel
like an old prize fighter who's retired. But I'm not
supposed to be retired, right, I'm supposed to still be
(24:52):
in the mix because I'm still young.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I still got everything.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
God equip me with the tools to say, you can
go out there and still put in work. It ain't over.
And and it's at that point that I start to
look at what's my next battle? And then I start
to look at my neighborhood, right, going through my neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And see.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
The disparities that plague my neighborhood on the daily right,
not enough affordable housing, not of school programs, the mental
health that walks through my neighborhood on a regular basis, right,
the drug power finalia. And so I'm like, if anybody's
going to do it, why not you?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Why not me? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And you know my daughter, you know, she helps in
that because she becomes a mortivating factor for a lot
of things that I do do. And when I talk
to her about it, you know, she's like, you know,
if you're going to do it, be about it, right.
But even then I struggle with that. So even though
I had her blessing, I didn't have the blessing from
the manstairs.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah. Pause, I want you to pause, because I believe
so many men need to hear that Raymond is deserning
when to move and when not to move, and to
think about that. You said, I have my daughter's blessing,
(26:14):
but I don't have the man of stairs blessing.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Now, when you got the man of stairs blessing, what
was your next move or should I say next step?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I jumped on the flight and came here. That was it.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Like the man said, said, this is where you need
to go, So you don't waited for direction.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I waited for that.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
And that's the credibility that I feel I have with God,
is that I.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Knew when to sit and wait for direction.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I'm gonna throw my notes. I'm gonna throw my notes
because so many men need to learn that, because it's
it's wisdom. It is, and it's also knowing when it's
the right season and timing of the thing. And brother,
I like you just bless me, because that's that's how
(27:09):
I move. If I don't feel it and I haven't
gotten clear instructions on it, I gotta sit still.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Even in this process, I threw obstacles on the purpose
and said, no, hand do that. If you want me
to go, hand do that. And then it got handed
it and I was like, oh, okay, you serious about
this one man?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
You sound like prophet where he was just like he
was like, yo, I'm gonna test you guy. I'm gonna
put this wood out here. Let me see what you're
gonna do with it, and and and it wasn't. I
didn't ask no silly questions.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I mean, it was God, if you want me to
go do this, you know where my heart is with
me this child? How do we work that? Because I'm
a father, you know that. You know I'm taking care
of this one. And he says, all right, I got you.
And when he does it, it's like, what's the excuse?
And that all right, Well, you know it's gonna be
(28:02):
a problem for me to go to New York City
and get some housing.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Done.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I went up there in the hotel for four days.
My apartment was ready.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
No, no matter how you put it, there's no way
you got it. All right, this is what we're doing. Okay,
let's go and we announce our run. We've been on
the run now about maybe three weeks. And I mean,
what people don't understand is that they think that I'm
(28:33):
here to get a city council in position. And God
tell me, Na, you here to get the people. The
people are going to give you the city council in position.
You got to get them first while and that becomes
the motivation. That's why we're in the projects, knocking on
the doors talking to people and they're looking at me like,
(28:53):
what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm here to
get your perspective on what you need because I can't
go in there and argue for you if I haven't
talked to.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
You first wisdom all day.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I can't speak up for you if I don't understand
the need that's wisdom, man, Man, Raymond, listen, Man, I
can talk to you all day, brother, because you're blessing me. Man,
because I love men who operate in wisdom. I love
men who operate instructions and in order, because I think
that's what we need more of. And you know, I
(29:27):
wanted to dive into this, but I didn't because just
to think, the person who took out an ad on
you know, you guy's fate, it's the same person who's
running this country now. And I don't even It's just like,
are you kidding me? Man? But you know, and I
don't want to give that too much energy because what
(29:49):
you just shared here today with the audience of just
your journey, man, has not only inspired me, but it's
encouraged me because not only are you reflective of your journey,
but you're reflective of who kept you on your journey.
Because I say that often, man, like if you'd have
(30:12):
told me I would be a therapist and be a
doctor like twenty years ago, I've been like no, because
I I'm an all sports guy, like sitting down talking
to people about mental health, like get out of here.
But just to see how the journey unfolds when we
lean into the process and to see healing is really
(30:33):
tied to surrenderingah, and so in closing, you surrender in closing.
I ask every guest, what does healing means to you? Raymond?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
For me, healing is a continuous process, right, It's the
overcoming of obstacles, of scars. It's just the ability to
do what's right at the end of the day. For me,
I had to overcome that several times, Like once I
(31:06):
learned I had the voice, then I had to use
the voice. Once you started using the voice, it became therapeutic.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I traveled, Me and Yusuf probably did the most traveling
all across the country talking to students, right, And so
that became therapeutic to sit in front of them and
tell them my story and then engage with them. And
then also we did so good in the process, right,
And so for me it always healing has always been
continuous until I get to this point of running for office. Right,
(31:37):
it's at that point because you know, I go through
a divorce, Right, I go through a divorce, highly publicized divorce.
I come back to New York City, and so the
healing it when I get to this point of stepping
(31:57):
into what I can perceive it's my purpose, right, that's
when it becomes like a full fledged surrendering because now
I see it, right, He's showing me, this is what
I have in store for you. You got to step
in because you have no other direction. So it becomes
a surrendering.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yes, alright, God, you know what. You're right, you got me.
We hear.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Now, let's walk through the door. And I think that
once I stepped into that of chasing the purpose, nothing
else because the most important thing to me is my
child is taken care of. Because he said he got her,
I can full just just just fully indulge in just
the glory.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I can be like, yo, we're hear that, Like I
can have these conversations if you converse with God like that. Yes, well,
I'm like, yo, you really want me to do this, right,
But you know my circle is extremely small because I
don't want the outside influences I don't want the negative energy.
Yeah right, because the purpose is that big. If I'm
(33:05):
able to get into office and make some type of
change that the people can see, it can start the
start right. And that's what it's about. That's why I
said I'm not here for the position. I'm here for
the people. The people are gonna give me the position
because they see me worthy of it. And that's my
whole campaign pitch. People go, well, you know, people are
(33:28):
they lost hope, they feel beat down, they feel defeated
through the politics, and I go, I'm not a politician.
I'm just a man who loves his community and I'm
here sent by God. He told me to come.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Here, So it's really up to y'all.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Man, I'm here to do the work if you let me,
if you support me, if you allow me, I asked him.
I say, you know, in politics, me as one person
is going to getst an entity that has been in
power in East Harlem and in South Bronx for twenty
plus years, and I'm coming here to bring some change.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Its clean cut. Either you want the change or you don't.
I'm just here to show you that it can be possible.
It's here.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Listen, I don't know what you took away from this conversation,
but the one thing that I hope that you take
away is what Raymond said is that healing is continual.
It is a continual process. And I'm not sure where
you are on your journey, and you may be just beginning,
you may be in the middle, you may be on
(34:33):
the end, and you may feel like, you know, I'm
taking a break because I think sometimes you have to
take a break from therapy, take a break from anything
that you may feel that is healing or therapeutic, because
sometimes the body just needs a moment to just be.
And I hope that you had an opportunity to experience
what being is and operating in your purpose after experience trauma,
(34:58):
going through something that has probably looked like you would
not come out of it. And today you got to
hear from an example from Raymond, to hear what his
thirty plus year year journey has been navigating life just
from a fourteen year old kid to now being a
(35:20):
man who's running for office, a man who is for
the people. And I love what he said. I cannot
speak for you until I know what you need, and
I don't know about you guys, he has my vote.
And so what I would love to lead the listeners
with is it doesn't matter where you are, you can
(35:44):
always start over. And starting over doesn't mean that you're
starting from scratch, you know, you just pick up with
what you have and maybe what you have is all
that you need to continue the process. And Brother, what
I am praying for you, Raymond, is that this campaign, man,
is seamless. It's encouraging, and it's invigorating to those that
(36:05):
you're going to encounter. And I pray that you know
the team and that those that are supporting you continue
to undergird you, man. And I'm praying for a victory
because we need more brothers like yourself that are representing
the people and not representing themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Man.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And so brother, I want to thank you for having
this conversation man with me on the Just Heal with
Doctor J Podcasts brought to you by The Black Effect
and iHeart Media. Listen, family, this is what we do here.
We heal, we have healing conversations. And so please wherever
you listen to podcasts, please tap into the Black Effect
(36:46):
podcast Network and iHeart Media and Apple wherever you listen
to podcasts, and also subscribe to Just Heal Doctor J,
where you could watch us live and watch the playback
of our interviews. Until next time, Remember healing is a
journey and wholeness is the destination. Just Here with Doctor
(37:07):
J a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. And you
can follow me at King J. Barnett on Instagram and
x and follow us on YouTube. Just Here, Doctor J.
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect podcast Network and iHeartRadio. What's Up, Family,
My name is doctor J Bornett, mental health expert and
marriage and family therapist. Listen. I'm excited to welcome you
guys to another episode of the Just Heal with Doctor
J podcasts, brought to you by the Black Effect Network
(00:23):
and iHeartMedia. I'm excited about this guest that I get
to sit down and talk with today. As you know,
the Just Heal is a space for us to foster
healing and to create conversations that will enlighten and enrich
the mind of our listeners and our viewers. Because also
we do have a YouTube channel, Just Heal Doctor J,
(00:46):
so go and subscribe there. And also wherever you listen
to podcasts, please tap in on the Black Effect Network
and iHeartMedia and Apple. Again, wherever you listen to podcasts,
please tap in with us. So I'm excited to bring
this guest. Many of you have seen the story, some
(01:07):
of you had an opportunity to watch the docuseries that
was so beautifully done by the actors, and I'm excited
to have one of the five brothers from the Central
Park five with us today in the studio, my brother
Raymond Santana. Welcome, Man, thank you, thank you for having me.
(01:27):
So I just want to go briefly Man in your bio,
because you are an activist that many may not know,
entrepreneur and of course one of the five EXONERATD five
formerly known as the Central Park five, and in nineteen
eighty nine, Santana was wrongfully convicted along with the four
(01:47):
other black and Latino teenagers in the infamous Central Park
Joggas case, and after serving nearly seven years in prison
for a crime he did not commit, he was exonerated
in two thousand and two when the real perpetrator confessed
and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt. Now, just reading that
(02:11):
evoked some emotions within me internally, because I couldn't imagine
what it's like to not only be considered as a
suspect for a crime that you did not commit, but
to not only be a suspect, but then to go
to convicted and having to serve time in the prison,
(02:35):
and me being in the mental health space, and having
worked with individuals that are in the system, having worked
with individuals that have received a number of years mentally
and psychologically, man, I just I don't know how I
would be able to process that. And here you are today, brother,
(02:57):
you look well. Man, you're looking good, look like you
age and.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Backwards trying man.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Maybe not trying, man, you're doing black man, you're doing.
Always say if you try, you would never start.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
That's right, That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So no, man, So if you could just you know, man,
just talk to the audience, and of course we're gonna
unpack it a little bit, but just you know, what
has been your journey psychologically, uh since coming home? And
of course it's many years ago, but just even as
you have, even as you have age as a black man.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, for me, I look back at the journey
right thirty plus years and it has been a journey
of continuous growth. Some of it, you know, out of
my hands. I have no you know, no way of
fighting it. Some things I can control. But I looked
at it as a thirty year process of growth. You know,
(03:51):
I was convicted at the age of fourteen, as a
fourteen year kid living in East Harlem. You know, I
never had no runners with the with the law. Didn't
know who Miranda was, right, you know, never had no dealings,
and so when this happens to me at the age
of fourteen, I'm completely blindsided because it was never no
pressure on me to choose a profession as a fourteen
year old kid, right right, you know, I loved this.
(04:13):
I was in my schedule book. I loved to listen
to hip hop music. Right back then, we had vhs,
so my dad would have me record movies for him.
I would record videos and watch videos. So I was
a typical fourteen year old kid. And on the night
of April nineteenth, you know, hanging out with friends, being
a follower, right, you know, the plan was to go
(04:34):
to the Shamberg Houses and there was a party over there,
and it was this nice little young honey that I
used to talk to back then, so I wanted to
go see your you know, going over to Shamberg Houses.
I didn't know the other four guys. I never met Yusuf,
didn't know Corey, didn't know Antroin, didn't know Kevin. All right,
this was a situation that happened because there was mutual
friends in the group. The Shamberg boys hung out, you know,
(04:57):
in front of their building all the time, so their
interest to Central Park was like their playground, right, And
so I went over there with a bunch of friends,
you know, trying to be tough. We you know, we
back then we're going to other neighborhoods. You came in
there with numbers, right, because that's just how things were
back then. And so you know, it was mutual friends
in the group and just hanging out with dudes in
(05:17):
the front of sean Berg led to go into the park.
And another thing was that originally I'm born in Harlem,
raised in the Bronx, and then.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I came back to Harlem. So when I come.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Back, I never really had dealings with Central Park. Wow,
So that was another thing. So here I was being
a follower or following the group into the park of
something that I really had no knowledge of, right, And
so I get arrested that night. And for us, we
you know, we're giving the death of parish ticket. It's
a family caught issue because we're charged with menacing truspassing riot.
(05:53):
So we're given like misdemeaned charges and so we're supposed
to be seeing the judge within two days. So now
we just got way for the family members to come
pick us up. And it's in the wee hours in
the morning, they find this woman who's bounding gagged in
the bloody mavine and she has lost so much, so
much blood that they're thinking it's going to be a
homicide case, right, And so this is how the Homicide
(06:14):
North Detective Square comes in, you know, to interrogate fourteen
and fifteen year old kids. And so the landscape was
un It was never even playing field, was never even
these were these are twenty year plus veterans. This was
the elite of the police force. We were fourteen to
fifteen year old kids who never dealt with the law.
They didn't even know what to expect in those interrogation rooms.
(06:35):
And then it just went hay white from there.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And you know when when when when when you're watching
the film on Netflix and the the interrogation room, Uh
was so emotional, man, And I'll be transparent, I cried
like a baby watching that because I could imagine being
(07:02):
a little black boy fourteen years old and the way
that you were cornered, yes, and you're just like, man,
I just want to go home. I don't know what happened.
I don't know what's going on. And to see to
see a young boy be in such a vulnerable state
and no one not be able to speak up for him.
(07:25):
What was that like if you could step back into
that man, because that scene in the interrogation room, man
carries such weight emotionally because you can feel it coming
off the stream.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, that's the part that we needed people to understand
because a lot of people throughout this whole process, people
always have that question of how do you confess to
something you didn't do? Right, and so everybody gets defensive.
But if it's me, I wouldn't I wouldn't say anything.
But it always comes due to experience.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right. Have you ever?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
You know, have you've been pulled over by the police,
You know you have certain certain expressions, whether you upset
or you afraid, right, because all dude experience. So for
us going into those interrogation rooms, it starts off calm right, Hey, Raymond,
you know you was out last night with some friends.
What did you see happen? Take us to the story, right,
and then you take them through the story of what
(08:17):
I saw, right, because I never seen no assaults and
stuff like that happen. And so then it becomes well,
wait a minute, what about this woman? And you go
what woman, And that's when you become blind sided. And
so you know, for us as fourteen to fifty ye
oh kids, it's estimated that we we are in those
interrogation rooms for fifteen to thirty hours, right yeah, well,
(08:39):
no food, no drink, you know, we're just in there
under pressure. And so for me, my grandmother sat in
the room with me, so a lot of times the
police had to interpret because she spoke. She spoke little English, right,
she knew English curse words, but she couldn't carry a
conversation and the envier so they would have to they
would have to stop and translate, and that became too long.
(09:00):
So now they figured off the way to get HOWD
through them. And then once they got out room is
when they start to work on me man. And that's
how it goes. It's something that happens over a long
period of time, and it gets you to a point
of helplessness so much that you feel like you are
caught it. You feel like there is no other way
around it, and to the point that you feel like
you're not even gonna make it out the priescst alive,
(09:22):
excuse me. And so for me, it's a point in
the film where you know, Detective Arroyal gets mad and
he bangs on the table and he reaches old because
he grabbed you, he wants to grab me, and at
that moment, I feel like he's gonna kill me. I
feel like he's you know, I'm not going to make
it out the precinct. And at that same moment, another
detective comes in and he stops them, right, and I
(09:43):
just felt like, whow he saved my life.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Right, and so and this is this is the good
cop backcop that we see on CSI Law in Order.
But back then we didn't understand that as fourteen year old.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
No right and then understand either the psychology on how
they play all of it. They're different questions.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yeah, it didn't even know that there was a retechnique,
which is seven steps on how you get somebody to
confess like this stuff is legal. They can sit here
and lie to you, you know, they can sit here
and lie to you and tell you we have the DNA,
we don't need you. And so for me, when he
kicks that officer out the room and I feel like
he saved my life, here comes the pitch. You know, Raymond,
I know you a good kid. I know you ain't
(10:24):
do these things, but these kids, they are the priests
saying that you did something. And he's like, you know,
I need your help, right, And I don't even know
what to say as a fourteen year old kid, because
I've never been in no situation like this, So how
do you even start to describe it? And so he
pulls out this picture of Kevin Richardson and slides it
to me and says do you know him? And I
say no, and he says, well, you see the scratch
(10:46):
on an aye that came from the woman. Now I
know he going to prison, but I don't want you
to go to prison, so I need your help. And
then he just sat back and you know, in business, right,
the first person who talks is the one that loses.
I'm a fourteen year kid, this is it, right, So
in my mind I'm formulating a lie. How can I
stop this pressure from continuing?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
And so then I go, okay, well it was Kevin
and he said okay, but what did Kevin do?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
So now he has to kind of walk me through it.
And this is what he does, even down to where
he says, he says, you know this woman had a
lot of injuries around her face and her eyes. We
didn't know she lost a lot of blood. Something had
to be used, Raimond, A rock, a brick, a pipe, something.
But at that moment, he's giving me options. He's telling me,
(11:36):
pick one. I don't know the injuries. I don't know
the severity of it, you know what I'm saying. I
don't even know what weapon is used. But he gave
me options. A rock, a brick, a pipe, something was used.
And I go, A brick was used, and he says, okay,
who used the brick? So now I gotta place somebody
with the brick, the brick, right and then and so
(11:56):
you go from that too. When you go to trial,
the brick is produced like this is the brick.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
It makes it.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
It makes the front page of the newspaper, you know,
and this is this, This is what we had to
deal with. You know, when you when you're going against
a whole system, a whole city that labels you as
as a wolf pack, as urban terrorists, as a wilding. Right,
(12:23):
what they did was they set they set the stage
so that America can be so mad and hurt by
us that they would turn their backs.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
On us, and which which takes me into this next question.
I've worked with the Latino community for a number of years.
That culture is a very tight knit culture. What was
that impact like with your family when the vertict before.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
The verdict, I mean, within the first two weeks of
this case, it's estimated that over three to four hundred
articles was written about us, dissecting the lives of fourteen
and fifteen year old kids, how we were this, how
we were with these bad app bad apples, Right, So
it set the stage for people to to, you know,
to you know, Donald Trump puts out the eighty five
(13:14):
thousand dollars page ad calling for the death penalty pap
u can and writes an article where he says that Corey,
who's the oldest, needs to be hung in Central Park
and the rest of us need to be horsewhipped. In
eighty nine to ninety, people are calling for our castration,
people calling for us to die. We received numerous death threats,
and so it becomes extra hard on the family, right.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I came from a big family.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
My dad has three brothers on one side, my mama
has five six, and my bill was twenty five thousand.
Nobody wanted to put up the money because they believed
the narrative. The narrative was hit so hard that people
took it hook line and sinker, even their family, even
the family and knowing that you were this fourteen year
old kid that loved music, were making movies for your dad,
(14:01):
and everybody bought into the narrative.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Dad Raymond did it? Yeah, the guilty of something. Man,
how was d.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I mean coming from a strong culture, right, I'm Puerto Rican?
And so the whole family turns their back. Nobody wants
to assist. I go through the system, right, I write
Puerto Rican Defense Fund, I write legal a no answer.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right. For the first ten years of this.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Case, it isn't even documented that I'm a Puerto Rican kid.
Everybody believes that it's five black boys. They don't even
makenowledge them on Puerto Rican. And this is how it goes,
you know. And so it isn't until years later I
meet a psychologist and he says, you Puerto Rican.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I go yeah, and he says, wow, all these years
we never knew this. Wow, I never was documented.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And I'm sitting here, you know, putting myself in the
shoes as a black man and I remember at fourteen
parents are divorced, and I'm thinking about as an adolescent,
when you experience those traumas in those adolescent years, what
it does to you psychologically and physiologically, because now the
(15:14):
brain has been reprogrammed. Yes, and once it's been reprogrammed,
there's such a work that has to be done because
you can't talk your way out of the freedom of
what you've experienced, because not only were you in prison
from a physical perspective, but also mentally and emotionally. And
(15:39):
I know you can't unpack all of this, but that process, man,
just and I want to think about this question because
I want to ask, did you ever forgive your family
or is that still the process?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Later on, once we get to the ken Burns Dock, we're
doing the run with the doc. Some of my family
members and they was in California and they came to visit.
We was at the AI Festival AFI Festival, and they
came to visit and they got to see the doc
and and some of them apologize, wow, you know, and
(16:16):
at that point I accept the apology because you can't
just stay bidter forever right that that, you know, like
Yousuf always said that if you stay btter, then it
eats you from within.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
But what is that when they said that they were sorry,
how did your body respond to that apology?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You know, it's a I told you so, right, It's
one of those moments like I told.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
You like you didn't believe me?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, And you gotta let them sit in that for
a little bit, right, They got to feel that fire.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And for those that are listening, it really wasn't the
man that was saying I told you so. It was
a fourteen year old huner that was saying I told
you yeah, he gets to speak. Now listen now now
not not not now, you in my in my I
feel because I don't think we realize that most times
(17:05):
when we have experienced things as adolescents and children, and
when we become adults and when there is a moment
of liberation, though it is the adult speaking, but it's
really the child's voice, or it's the adolescent voice, or
it's the voice of the innocent one, the one that
you know, we were exploited in that moment of vulnerability.
(17:29):
And what I'm loving about this Raymond, is that the
fourteen year old Raymond got a moment to speak for himself.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, No, I knew that. I knew that that was
that was heavy. I knew that that's and he gets
it several times. He doesn't just get that one. Yes, Yes,
it's that moment several times.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Man, No, that's.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Important that he has that moment. It's a several times.
I'm just just so excited to hear because you know,
as a therapist, I've said with you know so many
different clients that that have come from many different walks
of life. But what I'm enjoying about this is I
can feel that your soul is liberated. Yeah, Like I
(18:09):
can feel it because because I don't care when nobody
say you can you can tell when somebody is still
bound by something, yes, And I can tell that your
soul is liberated, uh, and that your spirit is free.
What is that like for you?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
For me going through the process, right, you know, it's
like you're kid not having a voice and then at
some point having a voice, and then understanding what the
voice is supposed to do, right, and then utilizing the voice.
Like I said, it's a constant thing of growth. And
so for me, it's it's a powerful moment, you know,
(18:47):
because it's it's it's it's always it's always a constant.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Level of growth.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Keep calling my phone. There's always a constant level of growth.
And and for me with the motive becomes like it's
like because you have all these downs, up and down,
up and down, but understand that they supposed to happen, right,
understanding that it's a part of the process.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
It's how you view it, right, what you put into it. Right.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I had to learn that in prison, right, because you're
not going anywhere. So when you stuck, but what do
you The work that you put in is hopefully the
growth that you get laiter on, you know what I'm saying.
And that took me a minute to understand that. So
it's it's it's the constant up and downs, but understanding
that you do got to have those ups and downs
in order to build some type of growth.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
You know, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Man, When when you were incarcerated, did you read any books?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What? What book? I gotta know this what book that
you read that stood out to you and that really
shifted your perspective.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
It's a moment. It's I you know, when I'm in prison,
I wound up going to because at the time they
had the GD program. So I get the gd program
and then there's a college program at that. I mean,
this is before BOTTACKI comes in in ninety five and
he pulls the college program out of prisons. And so
I remember taking this Black studies class and there was
(20:09):
a professor by the name of Latif Islam who was
a Tarwan figure, deep voice. When he spoke, everybody listened, right,
And that kind of sparked me a little bit because
it was an authority figure. And so he gave us
this book for the syllabus, but also on the syllabus
was like five other books. And I remember being a
(20:29):
smart act smart alicant class and saying, why you give
us all these books if we only use it one?
And he says, young brother, you don't understand it right now,
but one day you will. It will be a part
of your arsenal. And I looked at him like a whatever.
And it wasn't until I got through that class.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That kind of sparked something in me to understand what
happened to me and how that plays into you know,
into into into into the modern times. And then I
went and looked at the books, right, and you know,
there's always the Malcolm X right Biography of Malcolm X,
which is like basic, that's the foundation. And then there
(21:09):
was a miseducation or Negro by Carline G. Wilson, People's
History by how It's in right.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
These are great books, great books.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Of conspiracy to destroy Black Boys, Virus one, two, and three.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And so I gave those books to my daughter. My
daughter reads those books now. I still have them to
this day. I don't even know how they've been with
me all these years, but they have survived. And my
daughter they now enjoyed it, so she reads them now.
And so those books started to shape right, the mentality
(21:41):
of wait a minute, something, something happened to us. This
was a sinister plan and it worked. And now I'm
sitting here serving time trying to figure out how right
Because now I'm growing in the system. I don't leave
exit that system until I'm twenty one, so I'd get
(22:01):
to do a lot of effect and a lot of
growth there. And those become the books.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, those become the books.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
And I think is imperative for brothers that are listening
and for the women that love the brothers, it's imperative
to encourage brothers not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
Seek knowledge, not to just read, but to seek knowledge.
(22:28):
And also to seek growth because I run into a
lot of brothers man that have not grown beyond leaving
high school or their greatest moments. And to hear you
because one of my favorite books is The Miseducation of
a Negro by Cartigie Wilson, who is the grandfather of
Black history. You do not have to concern yourself with
(22:49):
what a man do if you can control how a
man thinks. I mean, I'm just like, dude, give me more.
And just to think about your growth today. You're a
healing journey which is continuous. And to think about where
you are now running for office, when you think about
(23:10):
your legacy and you think about your path over the
past thirty years, Man, give me three words that stands
out to you.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I sometimes unbelievable to see how far unthinkable.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Right if somebody sat there and said, hey, you're going
to go through this in thirties from now, you're going
to be here, I would have been like crazy, Wow,
I wouldn't even take the chance. Nah, I'm good, I'll
go to other directions.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Right, But the ups and downs again, the positives that
come out of this process that turned into motivational factors, right,
me having a daughter, me investing in her, right, turning
her to an entrepreneur, and and she listens, right and
(24:07):
for me, even when you get to office, Like I
never thought i'd be ready for office. I knew I
was an activist because I fought against the criminal justice
system for so many years, and I knew that was
my lane, and I knew I had a voice, and
I knew I had a platform, and I knew that
I can help, right, But I never.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Thought public office would be the way.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
But when I looked at it, it became a natural
form of progression. Right, fought against the system for all
these years. One I get to relax for a little bit,
I get to decompress. But then I start to feel
like an old prize fighter who's retired. But I'm not
supposed to be retired, right, I'm supposed to still be
(24:52):
in the mix because I'm still young.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I still got everything.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
God equip me with the tools to say, you can
go out there and still put in work. It ain't over.
And and it's at that point that I start to
look at what's my next battle? And then I start
to look at my neighborhood, right, going through my neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And see.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
The disparities that plague my neighborhood on the daily right,
not enough affordable housing, not of school programs, the mental
health that walks through my neighborhood on a regular basis, right,
the drug power finalia. And so I'm like, if anybody's
going to do it, why not you?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Why not me? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And you know my daughter, you know, she helps in
that because she becomes a mortivating factor for a lot
of things that I do do. And when I talk
to her about it, you know, she's like, you know,
if you're going to do it, be about it, right.
But even then I struggle with that. So even though
I had her blessing, I didn't have the blessing from
the manstairs.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah. Pause, I want you to pause, because I believe
so many men need to hear that Raymond is deserning
when to move and when not to move, and to
think about that. You said, I have my daughter's blessing,
(26:14):
but I don't have the man of stairs blessing.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Now, when you got the man of stairs blessing, what
was your next move or should I say next step?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I jumped on the flight and came here. That was it.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Like the man said, said, this is where you need
to go, So you don't waited for direction.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I waited for that.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
And that's the credibility that I feel I have with God,
is that I.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Knew when to sit and wait for direction.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I'm gonna throw my notes. I'm gonna throw my notes
because so many men need to learn that, because it's
it's wisdom. It is, and it's also knowing when it's
the right season and timing of the thing. And brother,
I like you just bless me, because that's that's how
(27:09):
I move. If I don't feel it and I haven't
gotten clear instructions on it, I gotta sit still.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Even in this process, I threw obstacles on the purpose
and said, no, hand do that. If you want me
to go, hand do that. And then it got handed
it and I was like, oh, okay, you serious about
this one man?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
You sound like prophet where he was just like he
was like, yo, I'm gonna test you guy. I'm gonna
put this wood out here. Let me see what you're
gonna do with it, and and and it wasn't. I
didn't ask no silly questions.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I mean, it was God, if you want me to
go do this, you know where my heart is with
me this child? How do we work that? Because I'm
a father, you know that. You know I'm taking care
of this one. And he says, all right, I got you.
And when he does it, it's like, what's the excuse?
And that all right, Well, you know it's gonna be
(28:02):
a problem for me to go to New York City
and get some housing.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Done.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I went up there in the hotel for four days.
My apartment was ready.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
No, no matter how you put it, there's no way
you got it. All right, this is what we're doing. Okay,
let's go and we announce our run. We've been on
the run now about maybe three weeks. And I mean,
what people don't understand is that they think that I'm
(28:33):
here to get a city council in position. And God
tell me, Na, you here to get the people. The
people are going to give you the city council in position.
You got to get them first while and that becomes
the motivation. That's why we're in the projects, knocking on
the doors talking to people and they're looking at me like,
(28:53):
what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm here to
get your perspective on what you need because I can't
go in there and argue for you if I haven't
talked to.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
You first wisdom all day.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I can't speak up for you if I don't understand
the need that's wisdom, man, Man, Raymond, listen, Man, I
can talk to you all day, brother, because you're blessing me. Man,
because I love men who operate in wisdom. I love
men who operate instructions and in order, because I think
that's what we need more of. And you know, I
(29:27):
wanted to dive into this, but I didn't because just
to think, the person who took out an ad on
you know, you guy's fate, it's the same person who's
running this country now. And I don't even It's just like,
are you kidding me? Man? But you know, and I
don't want to give that too much energy because what
(29:49):
you just shared here today with the audience of just
your journey, man, has not only inspired me, but it's
encouraged me because not only are you reflective of your journey,
but you're reflective of who kept you on your journey.
Because I say that often, man, like if you'd have
(30:12):
told me I would be a therapist and be a
doctor like twenty years ago, I've been like no, because
I I'm an all sports guy, like sitting down talking
to people about mental health, like get out of here.
But just to see how the journey unfolds when we
lean into the process and to see healing is really
(30:33):
tied to surrenderingah, and so in closing, you surrender in closing.
I ask every guest, what does healing means to you? Raymond?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
For me, healing is a continuous process, right, It's the
overcoming of obstacles, of scars. It's just the ability to
do what's right at the end of the day. For me,
I had to overcome that several times, Like once I
(31:06):
learned I had the voice, then I had to use
the voice. Once you started using the voice, it became therapeutic.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I traveled, Me and Yusuf probably did the most traveling
all across the country talking to students, right, And so
that became therapeutic to sit in front of them and
tell them my story and then engage with them. And
then also we did so good in the process, right,
And so for me it always healing has always been
continuous until I get to this point of running for office. Right,
(31:37):
it's at that point because you know, I go through
a divorce, Right, I go through a divorce, highly publicized divorce.
I come back to New York City, and so the
healing it when I get to this point of stepping
(31:57):
into what I can perceive it's my purpose, right, that's
when it becomes like a full fledged surrendering because now
I see it, right, He's showing me, this is what
I have in store for you. You got to step
in because you have no other direction. So it becomes
a surrendering.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yes, alright, God, you know what. You're right, you got me.
We hear.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Now, let's walk through the door. And I think that
once I stepped into that of chasing the purpose, nothing
else because the most important thing to me is my
child is taken care of. Because he said he got her,
I can full just just just fully indulge in just
the glory.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I can be like, yo, we're hear that, Like I
can have these conversations if you converse with God like that. Yes, well,
I'm like, yo, you really want me to do this, right,
But you know my circle is extremely small because I
don't want the outside influences I don't want the negative energy.
Yeah right, because the purpose is that big. If I'm
(33:05):
able to get into office and make some type of
change that the people can see, it can start the
start right. And that's what it's about. That's why I
said I'm not here for the position. I'm here for
the people. The people are gonna give me the position
because they see me worthy of it. And that's my
whole campaign pitch. People go, well, you know, people are
(33:28):
they lost hope, they feel beat down, they feel defeated
through the politics, and I go, I'm not a politician.
I'm just a man who loves his community and I'm
here sent by God. He told me to come.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Here, So it's really up to y'all.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Man, I'm here to do the work if you let me,
if you support me, if you allow me, I asked him.
I say, you know, in politics, me as one person
is going to getst an entity that has been in
power in East Harlem and in South Bronx for twenty
plus years, and I'm coming here to bring some change.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Its clean cut. Either you want the change or you don't.
I'm just here to show you that it can be possible.
It's here.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Listen, I don't know what you took away from this conversation,
but the one thing that I hope that you take
away is what Raymond said is that healing is continual.
It is a continual process. And I'm not sure where
you are on your journey, and you may be just beginning,
you may be in the middle, you may be on
(34:33):
the end, and you may feel like, you know, I'm
taking a break because I think sometimes you have to
take a break from therapy, take a break from anything
that you may feel that is healing or therapeutic, because
sometimes the body just needs a moment to just be.
And I hope that you had an opportunity to experience
what being is and operating in your purpose after experience trauma,
(34:58):
going through something that has probably looked like you would
not come out of it. And today you got to
hear from an example from Raymond, to hear what his
thirty plus year year journey has been navigating life just
from a fourteen year old kid to now being a
(35:20):
man who's running for office, a man who is for
the people. And I love what he said. I cannot
speak for you until I know what you need, and
I don't know about you guys, he has my vote.
And so what I would love to lead the listeners
with is it doesn't matter where you are, you can
(35:44):
always start over. And starting over doesn't mean that you're
starting from scratch, you know, you just pick up with
what you have and maybe what you have is all
that you need to continue the process. And Brother, what
I am praying for you, Raymond, is that this campaign, man,
is seamless. It's encouraging, and it's invigorating to those that
(36:05):
you're going to encounter. And I pray that you know
the team and that those that are supporting you continue
to undergird you, man. And I'm praying for a victory
because we need more brothers like yourself that are representing
the people and not representing themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Man.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And so brother, I want to thank you for having
this conversation man with me on the Just Heal with
Doctor J Podcasts brought to you by The Black Effect
and iHeart Media. Listen, family, this is what we do here.
We heal, we have healing conversations. And so please wherever
you listen to podcasts, please tap into the Black Effect
(36:46):
podcast Network and iHeart Media and Apple wherever you listen
to podcasts, and also subscribe to Just Heal Doctor J,
where you could watch us live and watch the playback
of our interviews. Until next time, Remember healing is a
journey and wholeness is the destination. Just Here with Doctor
(37:07):
J a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. And you
can follow me at King J. Barnett on Instagram and
x and follow us on YouTube. Just Here, Doctor J.
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