October 14, 2025 • 56 mins
In this powerful episode of Just Heal with Dr. J Barnett, Dr. J sits down with Grammy Award–winning gospel artist Kirk Franklin for an intimate and deeply moving conversation about healing, faith, and the complexity of identity. Together, they explore the importance of creating safe spaces for men to express vulnerability, the pressures of public expectation, and the spiritual journey toward self-acceptance and grace. Kirk opens up about his personal evolution, the emotional challenges of navigating fame and faith, and the role of community and accountability in sustaining growth. The dialogue highlights the power of transparency, the necessity of confronting inner pain, and how revelation can lead to true transformation. This episode serves as an inspiring reminder that healing begins with honesty, connection, and compassion—for ourselves and others.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
another episode of Just Here with Doctor J. And I
am your host, Doctor J. Barnett. Listen. Some of you
have been eavesdropping listening to the episodes, but I want
to take this opportunity to invite you to subscribe. To
(00:21):
click that link and come on and stop flirting with us,
and you join this healing community. The thing that we're
doing over here is so phenomenal. We are changing minds,
we're changing lives, but more importantly, we're having impactful conversation
and dialogue not just around mental health, but around healing.
Healing our minds, our bodies, and our spirits is so
(00:44):
important for the time that we're living in. So I
want you to join our community if you can listen
on the Black Effect Podcast Network and also on iHeart
Podcast Network or anywhere that you listen to podcasts. All Right,
so you guys know that the month of September the
month of October that I have been working entirely to
bring some enlightening conversations and some powerful conversation. And one
(01:10):
of the conversations I've been eager to have is with
my brother, Kirk Franklin. You guys know him as a songwriter,
the producer, and all the accolades that you know he
has achieved. But today we get to sit down and
talk to the man and we get to have a
conversation not only with just the artist, but with the
man himself. So I want to welcome my brother, Kirk.
(01:33):
Are you doing King? Are you doing black Man? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
King?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Listen, Man, listen. I don't know what's going on, but brother,
it's like we was in each other's closets.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, well you wasn't in mine because you would have
been your dog show.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So, man, brother, I am so excited to sit with
you today, man and share space. We have an opportunity
to share space on your amazing show. And I just
want to say thank you for what you guys are
doing with the Den of Kings and having these man
it was these raw conversations that men don't get to have.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Nice and that episode had a lot to offer the man.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Brother Man listeners, Yeah, man, And so how did that
come about? You know, the Dead Kings? Then?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, you know, Den was birth out of my fifty
fifth birthday dinner. But Historically, I've always enjoyed sitting around
the table with people and engaging the conversations. I wasn't
raised with family, so I don't know how it is
to be at the table with mom and daddy and
siblings and just having engaging conversations. So when I got
(02:42):
older and started having groups and singers and musicians and
band and we would travel the world together, that kepa
started to be my introduction to table talk and table
conversations and and me being already automatically inquisitive, like I'm
one that's always seeking out information. And sometimes I'll even
(03:02):
be a spark starter, like I'll throw out something knowing
I already know what the answer is going to be,
but I just want to be able to stir the
pot on the table just to get it kate ofgoring,
so that people can jump in and have engaged in conversations.
I love elevating my mind and my my space with
(03:23):
intellectual debate and dialogue to be able to grow and
to be able to just inform others at the table
and just kind of pushed the narratives of just being
to really being informed and being aware and being challenged.
(03:44):
And so for my fifty fifth birthday dinner. I flew
to Atlanta because all of my god friends, majority of
my god friends living in Atlanta on my bros. And
so I had dinner with the bros. And that night
turned into one of those conversations to the point that
a couple of the guys that also produced with they
were like, bro, we think this may be a show. Yeah,
this may be a show. And so it started during January,
(04:06):
and we shot the first one in May. M so
and uh, well, like we shot the first two in May,
and I've been blown away by the reception. Like it's
been crazy, man, crazy.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah. When Phil, when Phil reached out to me man
and told me what he was doing, he was like, Yo, Man,
I'm getting ready to do something with Kirk. Bro, I
think it's gonna be amazing. And when he told me
the concept, I said, bro, it's gonna pop. Well he's like, man,
you think so? I said, Man, you know Phil is
my fraternity brother, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So then so, no matter came by all that. We
could get going wasting our time with all that, and
you know, just yo to the news and listen, Kirk,
did you said so?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Because I know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
People like all right, what what what fraternity here? Cap
Ific f Attorney Corporated.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
He was so happy to do that. He was so
happy to do that. He ain't picked them. No Bible
hit it for no biblist Green hit it for those scriptures.
Just Aiden. He got into it over tom By. So
now we go through that. But but but thank you
for even for seeing that it could be something that.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Because it's something that we don't have, king and it's
also something that is needed. You know what I've seen
over the past three years that I traversed his country
with my tour Just He'll Brou with four of my brothers,
Lemon Rucker, doctor Joel, Doctor O'shan, Lawrence Ajah, and I
(05:38):
called their name because what we did was was was historical.
It was the first mental health tour for black men.
From the book that I wrote, Just He'll bro and
I had a vision of it becoming a tour and
seeing what it could do for men. But it was
in the process that I saw men desired this. For
(06:00):
three years, thirty three cities, eighteen thousand men that we reached,
and one of the things that I was really challenged
with is that when I ended the tour in November
is I was like, man, God, I don't know what
to do with this, but I want to see something
else done where men can continue to see that their
(06:21):
space is created for them. And that's what Den of
Kings is doing. It's creating space for us. Because when
you talk about not having conversation with family and not
having conversation around you know, individuals that made it feel
like home, is a part of what you do on
(06:41):
the Den of Kings. Is that part of your healing journey.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I'm quite sure that there are effects of healing, but
that was not the modus operandi, that that wasn't the
agenda for then. It's more than anything, it was all
about the idea of men coming to other and having
conversations that really really felt like in the moment and
(07:06):
the camera was a spy in the room, that we
were authentic and true to just the moment of conversation
that a camera just happened to catch. Yeah, reversus a
production of a show. Yeah, And so I hope it
looks like that. It translates to that it appears like
it has, and that's a blessing in itself. So now
(07:30):
I'm cursure there's going to be residue of healing moments.
But I think more than anything, it's all about just
curating content and platforms that just speak in spaces that
have not had a chance to amm a voice.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah. I feel that because the tour, we didn't do
a lot of video because I didn't want the men
to ever feel like they were being exploited. And then
there were no women allowed, and we average anywhere from
three to six hundred men. And when I sat at
the table the Den of Kings, I often had men
(08:03):
who weren't able to attend the just He'll row events.
They often was like, man, what is it like? And
I think what you're doing is you allowing other men
to see what it's like that didn't have that experience
of sitting around the table but then not knowing what
it feels like to even have community. Yes, because in
that moment that we're sitting there eating, community is happening.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, yes, yes, And I think that man feed off
of community's I think that we're always looking for connecting points.
I think that's why sports is always such a big unifier,
and it's the thing that has no bias, no prejudice,
no confrontational aspect at the fundamental core of what it
(08:48):
is now. I never played sports, but I can tell you,
even as a grown man, I see the fraternities that
men naturally build through sports that I envy, Like like
when I when I watch men that they either played
sports or then and the sports, there's an unspoken language
and rhythm that men have their reactions to things. They're
(09:12):
engagement with things, where for me, somebody who's a creative,
and I've always been a creative my whole life, I
don't speak that language at all, Like I don't always
know the hype of certain things. So for me is
a man being adopted by a woman. I see the
deficiencies that I have that I envy from communities that
(09:36):
men have had. It's because you know, most men that
have lifelong friends it came through sports. They played sports
together in junior high, high school. So you know, like
you don't see a lot of friends that came up
playing the piano with each other and my dog play violin.
It's sister great. You know, it just doesn't happen. It's
(09:57):
not the same nature of fraternity show. A lot of
that natural matriculation didn't happen in the ecosystem that I
just matured in.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
As a creative. I had the opportunity to play sports
and to be a creative And that was the hardest
thing for me when it was over, which over football?
Is that locker room, man, It's all about the locker room, man.
It was the brotherhood. It was it was knowing that
(10:31):
I may not agree with my brother's view on life
or anything else, but man, when we cross those stripes, man,
I mean you would you would put your life on
the line for this. Dude. Man, we wouldn't have you know,
you weren't gonna drink no beer, you ain't gonna eat
no dinner with all of your teammates. But there was
this common goal and that was this objective that winning
(10:54):
was the outcome that we were working towards. So it
was it was missing, you know, training in the heat.
You know, it was missing you know getting up at
five o'clock, you know, five o'clock in the morning and
working and then trying to outwork each other. You know.
When I played arena ball, I came in as a
rookie an arena league, and there was a guy, most
(11:15):
of the guys that just they had been cut from
the NFL. And so at this time, Arena was his
fundamental lead. And this guy played seven years and he
was twenty seven. I came in at like twenty two
years old. I went undrafted and the coach brought me in.
I got brought in on a two day contract, and
I remember, like yesterday he said, you better come in
(11:38):
and you better do your thing other than that, I'm
sitting your ass home. This is what the coaches said.
He was like, you better come in. I'm sitting you home,
and now you ass home. Yeah, well is different sitting
in you home. I'm spending your asshole. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't feel no love
in that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah. And so it shifted something in me because I
went undrafted and this was my other opportunity that was
still connected to football and still connected to the NFL.
So it's like this is the only way that you
get back that was part of me. Like, man, I'm
not ready to give up what the locker room provided
for me. So I went in there and went crazy.
(12:20):
I ended up they end up signing me and cutting
the guy that because we were playing the same position.
But when I thought about what I was not ready
to give up. I had to ask myself why it
was the only place that I felt accepted. Yeah, and
I don't think we talk enough about men needing to
(12:42):
feel belonging, acceptance. And even with our counterparts women, I
don't think they realized how important that it is.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
They have no idea. And I feel the same way
on stage or in the studio that I am my
most natural self in those states. That it's very it is.
It's very hard for me to learn the rhythm of normalcy.
It's difficult, it's diffic It's because normalcy for me, just
(13:15):
normalcy doesn't move enough, like I gotta have movement in normalcy.
A lot of times demands you to be normal all
you talking, you know. And so I find myself in
the the duality of reality, where where who I am
(13:37):
and what I do conflicts with the realities of often where
I'm supposed to be. And I'm fifty five years old
and still have not mastered that space yet. Like I
was in my therapist. I call my therapist yesterday evening
and I said, Hey, I need to come in for
for session this morning. And I was with my therapist
who's been my therapist for many, many, many years, incredible. God,
(13:59):
you know it's it's because I need those checkups. Is
because when I'm in Europe. I just came from Europe,
and you know, every night I'm in front of thousands
of people, and I was in Europe when America was
having this racial moment with Charlie Kirk, you know, And
so I'm in Europe watching America look like it's burning
(14:21):
and having all these conflicting emotions and feelings because I'm
watching the responses and the attitudes and everything of people.
And I wasn't even I wasn't even aware of who
charing to Kirk was until that moment. And so you
know that that's not normal. These these moments are not normal.
And then you know, I'm in five different countries. I'm
(14:42):
standing in front of white European people watching America had
this tension. And then I fly home and I'm supposedly normal.
Slot to ask, Slot to ask, like, can you imagine
and this illustration always yeah, Doc, can you imagine Mike
(15:04):
Tyson at his height when Mike Tyson was knocking his
out right, I'm telling like, you remember how much of
a monster Mike was, like right, right, right, and like
you'll know how much of a just an assassin he was.
Can you imagine him having a fight on a Sunday
knocking heads off, and that next Monday morning he got
(15:24):
to be in a pt ain't beating with his kid.
Can you imagine what type of mental psychological shift from
being an assassin that Monday. But his wife is expecting
him to be in that ptain't meeting and be normal
(15:45):
because he is a father too, So he's got that
responsibility and he's going to be judged on how good
he is in these different worlds. But these worlds are
polarizing spaces, and he's going to be judged and held
accountable to be good at both m.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'm tearing up part on nothing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
When there's a moment that that it's profound, I have
to tear up a card man. So when I tell
you that is the war that I don't think people consider.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Especially women in our lives, especially the women in our lives,
it's because it's a perfect picture, and it is the
perfect picture example of the duality of reality that that
that we are expected to win in at at at
both times. But really those are two different people the
mic that need to be in the ring and the
(16:52):
mic they need to be the pizzaman. Those are not
the same people.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Not the same people, and you can't even think the same.
The thought process is a completely different. Yes, I was
just telling a friend of mine as and it's funny
that you're sharing that that as you were watching the
world from your last night. I flew back from New
York and I was on a boat last night with
(17:17):
three hundred European people talking to them about two of
their close friends and two of the construction owners of
their employees who had took their life and died by suicide. Jeez,
I'm on this boat, Kurt, and I'm feeling a ways
(17:38):
because I said to them that whether you're red or blue,
black or white, mental health is life in motion. But
the challenge is I'm giving life and to people who
don't look like me, people who don't believe like me,
who don't think like me, And in that moment, I
(17:58):
am expected to meet them where they are because there's
an expectation, yes, sir, And the expectation is that Doc
you got to meet us in a buddy of minds
was with me and he said, Jay, I've seen you
speak in a lot of different rooms. I'm interested in
how you're going to work this room.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Which could be unfair to you because it's like, are
you expecting me to fail? Are you expecting me to win? Like?
What is the nature of your expectation?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And when I grabbed that mic, there was a lot
of chatter because at the time, it's like a handful
of black folks and my buddy and a few people
that I know that came to support and they're standing around,
and it was the oddest thing because it's like all
these white folks on the boat. I'm thinking, man, this
cannot be Titanic too. I'm thinking that, But then I'm
(18:51):
also thinking, like, man, how do I engage with them?
And the moment that I grabbed the mic, what I
realized is what humanity is for all of us, the
process of navigating life's trials and tripulation that whether rich
or poor, black or white, gay or straight, no matter
what your belief system or what your social economic life
(19:13):
is going for all of us.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and our species does not give each and every
individual the grace that they may need to figure out
how to do the journey. It's almost like we expect
people to land and automatically know and know that but
but but but but our knowing is also mixed in
with her learning, So I may stumble, I may make mistakes.
(19:37):
So like, one of the biggest challenges I think that
has been even with Western Christianity, is that we expect people.
We expect people to learn a certain level and a
certain acumen of faith where they're learning the faith. Like,
you can't expect for me to be a five a
a what is called a five michelan aim a chef,
(20:01):
my first time in the kitchen, you know, like I'm
going to be in the process. You know, you can't
expect from me to be a super saint just because
I rock with Jesus. It's like and then unfortunately, sometimes
most of us we have to try to grow while
the camera is on, while the spotlight is on. And
that's subjective. I'm not talking about celebrity. Like it could
(20:23):
be the spotlight of your kids, it could be the
spotlight of your mom in law, it could be the
spotlight of of your coworkers. That a lot of us
are expected to win and know automatically while we're being watched,
and the level of performance anxiety that that can create
in humans. So I think what is the biggest addition
to our mental health is the lack of grace for
(20:50):
the human condition. Yes, it is. It is so disappointing,
and especially for us as people of color, the the
the harsh expectation and judgment when we don't get it
right from our own ads to mental health, because my nigga,
(21:13):
everybody trying, We trying. I'm trying to get to Jesus.
I'm trying to get to mintal health. I'm trying to
get to the bag. I'm trying to get to the kids.
I'm trying to get to wifey. I'm trying to get
to my old health. I'm trying to get to the doctors.
So you can put the little glove on. Have me
bend over and made me feel a little comfortable to say, Carl,
I don't want to do it, but I know I
got to do it because my people are dying of that.
(21:34):
You know what I'm saying. It's like I'm trying, and
I think that this lack of grace and not realizing
that we're all trying. Trying.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Man, that's a word.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
How cool to judge somebody in the midst of their tribe.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I'm gonna let that sick king, because I can feel
that in this moment. I was on the plane flying
back and that was my prayer to God and I
text CJ and he could pick up my energy and
he says, what's going on? I said, Bro, I want
to quit this healing stuff. And I said, I feel
(22:15):
this unfair. Yeah, because I'll show up in space is
king and I can't beat J. Doc.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
What is the word for today?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Doc? Can you make me feel better? Doc? Can you
give me some insight? Doc? Can you give me perspective?
And I'm sitting on a plane and I'm saying, God,
I need some insight right now because I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. I have been on planes and I said this
on one podcast on if we saw it on lou
Young's pod, because that's bro. I've been on planes and
people have gotten on planes and will see me and
they will say, oh, I know this plane is gonna crash.
We got God on this plane. And I'm thinking where
he at? Where got at? Christians? Dollar Christians dotald planes.
(23:03):
It's like this, this expectation that this plane is gonna
be it's gonna survive. Bok Up, I'm on it all
that kind of preser you know, you know or or
or or like for people to say that's stopping them. Awn, Yo, man,
will you pray for me? And I'll say yes, I've
been with that too, But I just need for you
to know your prayers are heard just like mine. But
(23:26):
as human and even since the beginning of mankind, we
have always made idols out of those we think are
oracles of God. We always have.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
How does how does that make you feel? Man? When
you when people walk up to you about asking a
prayer as if your prayer is better and and that
God is not hearing them because they're not where you at,
how does it make you feel?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
At times? They can give me anxiety, you know? And
then it just sometimes hurts me for the human condition
that we are naturally wired to believe that before God
we're not good enough, because that's that's really the language.
That's a saying I know I'm not good enough and
I know he is, but I know he is, and
(24:10):
they don't realize that I just got off the same
toilet seat she did. I just finished shaking at the
toilet like you just finished shaking. I just finished burping
a passing gas like you did like just because you
may not see my dirt, do main there ain't none.
And I just wish, I wish there was a way
to free people to know that the God that believes
(24:32):
in them believes in all of them, and that there's
never a time. Listen. I have kids, I have a
son that I don't agree with everything he does, and
he breaks my heart in the hurstry. But guess what,
his last name is still Franklin. That don't change his name.
What he does does not change who he is. He's
(24:54):
still a Franklin. And I just won't. I need for
people to understand that no matter what you do wrong,
God doesn't take back. He created too hm and he
never will. He never will. So at that moment, you're
always good enough when you accept His son as your
personal savior. My nigga, the chop is done. It's done.
(25:14):
It's done. It's done, it's done.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And but you know, the enemy's job, Kurt, is to
pulverize and to get you to not think that you
are enough.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yes, and what.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I see, particularly for people of color, I'm the son
of a pastor. My father's a pastor a Baptist church,
and I can remember as a kid. The amount of
people who because in the South they call you reverend
you or.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Rare you know, or doc god doc he had been
to no school, ain't been to no school, and ain't
been to no school. You can listen and I could
just think, agree up there ridden a crayon, you know what?
(26:06):
Well more? And why don't they ever use their whole
first name? Doctor A. E. Johnson, the doctor C. B. Smith.
It's like you embarrassing your name. But you know it's like,
you know, like, don't nobody use their person and not
better use your first name, the name Craig, Say Craig Craigs,
that are doctor C. B. Jackson? No, my name, your
name Craig, Craig Jackson, any flight Craig.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And so I can remember how he was pulled in
all of these different directions. And I think the most
difficult thing that that I've seen as my father has
age is he had this high level of spirituality but
a very low level of his individuality.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Man, I don't think my father really knew who he
was outside of being a pastor. Like I'm the conversation
that I'm having now with him in his sixties, they're
so spaced out and it's hard for him to even
listen as a father because he only knows how to
respond to rev.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And that's that generation of Black church culture.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And so my question for you is what was the
turning point for you? Or if there was, how did
you navigate on and maybe you still try and how
did you navigate on the performer and the man?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Oh, when I get that right, I'll come back. When
I get that right, I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, Oh no, I love it. Oh no, I don't
know if you ever. It's because they're so intertwined. That said,
they are so much part of the DNA of who
you are are that that when you are passionate and
committed to your craft, that you don't know a lot
of times when the lions are like you. Hear Denzel
(28:12):
talk about how it took months for him to get
the character of Malcolm X outside of his body because
he embodied that character so much. You hear how actors
transform themselves, but sometimes it drives them crazy because they
became so much of that. You hear about Heath legendary
before he was Bedford took his life. How when he
played the Joker, How playing that character almost took him out.
(28:37):
And I just think that it is very difficult to
want to be committed to a high level of your
craft and turn that off and on. And I think
you see it in athletes. I think that when you
hear Kobe and when you hear Kobe and how he
was so committed and how but at the same time
you hear how he was a butthole, right, you know,
or you hear how Jordan was, you know, an a
(28:59):
hole you know. But these are highly, highly functional men
that succeed at levels that we aspire. So the thing
that we like about them mosto becomes the thing that
we hate about them. Here it is, and I don't
know how, once again, how we manage our expectations. Like
(29:19):
you see how brutal the sport of football is, but
then you give a nineteen twenty yard kid millions of
dollars to play it, his health is not going to
be the first thing on his mind. But then when
something happens, how disposable they are. So you know, it's
I think that we contribute to the asset that people
(29:40):
fall into when it even burns their own skin, is
because we are purveyors of it, and we're warriors of
watching them either succeed or self destruct or both. At
the same time, you were great at your sport, but
now you can hardly walk and all of those cheers
can't fix those needs that are banged up. So you know,
(30:02):
it is a very it is a very difficult conundrum
that can be It can be it can be a
time hypocritical, it can be dysfunctional one at the same
time beautiful.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, it's almost oxymorantic.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Always always, and that's what greatness has always been born at, right,
It has always been in the tension of both. You know,
it's I think that great people live in tension. So
what has to happen is when it comes to mental health,
you have to also be be proactive and understanding that
(30:41):
sometimes the high highs and low lows it exists in
people that are highly functional that we have to have
the tools already going in. Like what I try to
do is because I struggle with highighs and lowers because
I am I'm a dog when it comes to work,
I'm a dog. I'm a dog. A new artist will
(31:03):
never be be being in a student. I'm gonna be
there before you and be there after you. You're not gonna
sign more autographs. You ain't gonna kss more babies. You
ain't gonna shake more heads. You ain't gonna say thank
You're not gonna do more interviews than me. You're not
gonna be in a sessions longer than me. You're not
gonna take as many takes as me because I'm a dog,
because I can't afford to not be liked. I'm driven
(31:25):
by my trauma, but I've learned to drive it there.
I don't drive it into alcohol. I'm driving in the
drug because it's gonna go somewhere. Come and everybody pray
it away. No, my make shure. If you've never had it,
you don't realize it. Some thorings you live with. Some
thorns you can't pray away. Listen, one of my heroes
theologically said, whatever pushes me to my knees is.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Good my God today.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Man.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
When not my God today, c J, I'm out of
call my God today. When I tell you you have
just given me language to be a survivor of two
suicide attempts to know what it's like to look death
(32:22):
in the face. There was a season, and I can
talk this with you because we understand not only just
the hermoneutics, but also biblically and spiritual warfare. I remember
a season king where there were evil spirits that would
(32:43):
circle my bed every night, and I can hear them saying,
we're going to kill them. And this lasted probably about
a year, and I would go to bed terrified, and
I can them when they were coming well, and I
can feel their presence, and I would just pray, just
(33:06):
pray and pray and pray. And to be on this
other side sharing that, because to be on the other side,
why I don't have warfare. That's also the thing that
drives me to pour and to help others heal.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, So when you just said the trauma drives you,
because as a part of me, and I'm just being
so transparent, there's a part of me that's afraid to
be back in that space because it's somewhere, because it's
going to go somewhere. And that is the hardest thing
that even as I stood on that ship last night
and these white men are saying, hey, brother, you touch me,
(33:46):
because it wasn't so much that I looked like them,
it was that I feel what you feel.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, and
the problem is, if most men will admit it, seven
to eighty percent of our time is probably we're afraid.
We're scared scared. We're scared we're not gonna have the money.
We're scared of having a retirement. We're scared we're gonna
get an erection. We're scared, we're not gonna be able
to survive. We we we're scared we're not gonna be
able to We're scared of having a stroke, We're scared
(34:12):
of having a heart attack, We're scared of having cancer.
We're scared our wives are not going to levels at
the end of the real lust that we were, we're
we're we're scared of the secret struggles. We're scared. We
we live our lives in fary privately, and it comes
out in this in this toxic masculinity, because the truth
is inwardly we are scared, and the fear is erased
(34:35):
when you can finally get the microphone and another man
looks at you, dead in the face and say to you,
me too. H. There's something about healing and community when
you know you not alone, sir, That alone is your medicine.
Does healing when you know you not alone, because most
(34:56):
men think they're the only ones going through this, And
especially when you're pregnant with purpose, especially, you ain't never
You ain't never seeing a woman deliver a baby and
she in hospital, smoking cigarettes and just and not eating
for Frido chips and just chilling. She is an agony
pushing giving life to something is always going to be
(35:18):
connected with the death of something else. Ain't nobody chilling
giving babies. They ain't nobody to send around whistling and
having fun. And you ain't never seeing a woman just
comfortable giving a baby. She is in agony, almost facing
death herself. So what a lot of men feel when
they're on the edge of that despair and that emotion
and that anxiety they have given so much of themselves.
(35:39):
Just a me too. It's therapeutic and healing.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Because you just gave me my me too moment, because
I could feel this purpose. I can feel this thing,
and I've ran from it, and I've run from it,
and I know that it's healing. I know that it
is cathartic. I know that it is freeing and liberating
for so many men. But I'm sitting on the plane
and I'm saying to God, what about me? And the
(36:06):
thorn is often that you are healing while bleeding at
the same time, because while I'm free in this, there's
something that still has me bound that I am wrestling
not with letting it go, but it has a hold
on me.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And anybody great does anybody great does it? It is
an insult to greatness the thing that comfort will be included.
It's an insult to greatness. Like you always see the
new people in the gym. You can always tell the
people of the gym that are new. They don't have
(36:43):
the commitment there. There are there the sweats and the
warm ups and a headbance all match. Everything is cool,
the shoes are clean and pretty, and they get on
the treadmill five ten minutes and get out who you
know and and they want to wrong when you go
to the gym and people that hit on the match
and then to look at cute like you know what
I'm saying, like real, you know where, you know where
(37:04):
you care about? No fashion, But people that go to
gym and fashionable are always one that are least in
shape because the external is more important for them than
the internal. But them internal wars. Those are the people
that are giving birth to greatness. If you not struggling,
I would say you're not great. If you're not struggling,
(37:25):
or if you're not struggling, you have not yet tapped
into your greatness. Because the seed of greatness is inside
of every human it's inside of every human being. But
they're not willing to pay the price to lay in
that bed and give delivery and be uncomfortable. That's why
everybody sits on the bench, because nobody wants the price
(37:47):
of being uncomfortable. That's why that's why you can be
afraid of your trauma. You gotta embrace the unrealities. You've
got to be able to embrace the tension and the
problems and the pain is because anybody that has ever
overcome anything has never had a first class ticket to
get there. It is the pain of coach, it's the
(38:10):
pain of spirit of airlines. It's losing your luggage, it's
losing your mouths, it's losing your mind. The insanity. Yeah yeah,
so men, men just need to be comfortable and to
be able to have the village. And we've got to
get rid of the comfort of our own masculinity and
(38:30):
the byble. Say like I was going through something and
one of my mentors, I found out that he was
going through something too, And what hurt me was he
never let me know that he was going through it too,
that he has no idea how healing it could have
been for me. And he got to tell me all this business,
but to just be able to look at me and say, son,
(38:53):
me too, I know how you feel just that alone
because men beat themselves us up. We beat ourselves up,
and we beat ourselves up, and we just need somebody
to be able to say to us. I got like
my therapist, like today when I was in therapy and
(39:13):
I and I was laying all my junk out and
I said, and he's also a Christian, but you know
of course he's PhD. And I said, and when I
when I finished, I said, how am I doing? I
always want to know how am I doing? It's because
I need to know from him how am I doing?
Because I don't want to talk myself well if I'm
still sick. Come on, see what I'm saying, like, because
(39:36):
you know, when you go to therapy you're getting it
all out and I don't want to talk well, but
I'm still sick, So I need somebody to be able
to channel back to me when I'm saying and when
I'm giving back, because I want to know how am
I doing, because I need to know where I'm landing.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
So let me take that moment to excel this. This
is this is therapeutic, this is healing that it's almost
like and I knew that this encounter with you and
this session and discussion would be what it is because
(40:12):
of the way the enemy fought my mind today because
Bro I was on the plane texting CJ and I'm like, Bro,
I quit man well because I can feel God expanding me,
I can feel them stretching me. I can feel him
calling me higher in what I do for men and
for people, and I'm saying to him, I don't want
(40:35):
to go this big. Let me stay here, And not
because I'm afraid of big, but oftentimes I'm afraid of
the responsibility that comes with big.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let me tast I'm kink. If people could really see
and the majority of my career, if they could have
seen my if they could have seen my bank account,
it would be embarrassing. The amount of money that people
don't know I really don't have because I haven't vested
so much into my dreams. You have no idea, You
(41:04):
have no brother, if you if you knew, and then
because we we we're in a culture of fake it
till you make it. I still got a little rob boy.
Wife has still got to be whooped to whoop to whoop.
The kids can't look like they from Ethiopia with the
big ballet. You know what I'm saying. It's like, you know,
everybody's still got to have a little drip. And it's like,
(41:25):
you know, you robbing Peter to pay Paul, You're for
the RS somebody, Hey, hey, hey, I promise I'm gonna
get it to you. Let me get on a payment plan.
Will you know what I'm saying, It's like you you
do man. People have People have no idea what it
costs to even to even not whining, but just to try,
(41:46):
just to try. Whoso Oh I would be embarrassed if
most of my career people sell my bank account. Oh yeah,
I've invested so much money to trying, just trying. Oh money, damn.
I didn't even know why that was moving around. She's like,
(42:08):
we can't afford again. It's because I don't want her
to feel Yeah, it becomes still a man, and I
can't say no if she wants something, because that's what
men do. Men say yes.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Even when the yes hurts.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
When they yet serve. So let me go jump on
another stage. Let me go do something just to make
sure that they don't feel nothing while I'm still drinking,
while I'm still trying. Ain't even one yet, ain't even
it even came to fluition, but just to pay to try,
just to try, Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. It's
(42:45):
all part of mental health. It's all part of the journey.
And God is so good because in that he's with us,
He's with us, he's with us, He's with us. And
when you think you losing your mind, I remember two
years ago, this whole thing came up by my father
and me finding out what God. You know, one nigga
(43:07):
I told my father, ain't the negatives my father. The
other nag was my father, and was like, I don't
mean nothing. Your niggas be my father. You know what
I'm saying. And I remember walk working on that project
and being in the studio and I spent the night
that night, and I have a gun that was on
the side of my bed that I keep on studio
by myself, and it was a night that I was
uncomfortable having that gun by me. I was uncomfortable. I
(43:29):
felt the anxiety and the little depressed, you know, I
was just uncomfortable psychologically. I could feel I was uncomfortable
being by myself with a gun. And I called my
homeboy and I said, hey, man, come to the studio
and come get this gun. Just come get it, keep
it on you for a minute. He came and we
walked outside of the night. I got some bed. You know,
(43:49):
I did my breathing exercises. It's because but but but
all of that is happening in the middle of giving
birth to something. Or you're most vulnerable when you're giving
birth to something, to something. Oh man, I can't tell
how many payment plans I've been with iris, just trying
(44:12):
to keep people paid, just trying to keep money flowing
while you trying. Why are you trying? The Price to Try?
And that's a book, The Price to Try.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I had a book title man.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Man, brother, when I tell you have some better than me,
the weight that has just lifted from me, just from
you sharing. We not only watched your career, but we
(44:51):
just watched like I remember when God's Property came out.
I think I was in high school and and Stump
was out. And just to hear, you know, the criticism
around the sound and around the creativeness and all of
those different things, and to see that you're still here.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
During it at a high level, by the kindness of God,
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
But I just want to say, Man, how proud I
am for you, Man for just continue the journey, because
as a black man, I often tell Bishop Jakes when
we're having our conversation, I said, Bishop, to see men
like yourself and to see men like you to continue
to do it at a high level as you have age.
(45:39):
It's been a blessing. Yeah, to see you do it well.
But what I have appreciated over the years is the
authentic versions that you've allowed us to see and to hear.
Because I didn't get to see who my father was
as a man, so unfortunate. You got to see what
(46:01):
caused the divorce. I got to see the different things
that we found out, but I didn't really get to
see it where he says, Son, these are my struggles, yeah,
and have freeing that would have been man Son, This
is where I went wrong. Son, This is where I
could have done this different. You know, he get to
(46:21):
look at me now and get to share how proud
of he. You know how proud he is, and that's
been great. But what I have longed for for so
long is for a man to do what Jesus did
to the disciple. Show me where the holes are, yet,
let me feel where the hole is. Let me see
the womb, because when I see the womb, I know
(46:42):
it's real. I know you real.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Did you ever hear that song under what you look
at for album? My second I'm so called. Let me
touch you and see if you were real. Even though
my heart I know your hands can heal, but sometimes
I get discouraged and I need your strength and hill, Jesus,
let me touch you and see if you are real.
Sometimes to me you seem so far away, and I
wonder if I could just make it through the day.
(47:05):
But if I can touch the hem of your garment,
your power, I know I can feel. Jesus, let me
touch you and see if you are real. And I
do want to say that all the brothers, even in
that conversation a minute ago, just talking about the financial contribution,
that you're making to yourself. Don't measure the payoff by
(47:26):
the ground, because it's easy to look at the GRAM
and see what other niggas are doing and see what
other niggs are having. Don't judge the payoff of your
the investment in you if it don't look like what
you see on the ground, because I promise you the
GRAM is full of filters. Those are filtered pictures. You
(47:48):
have no idea what's real behind that Pierson. So do
not set yourself up for fare and rejoice in the
little successes, the little winds, the little doves. Man, But
you invest in yourself. Celebrated, celebrate a little dub, celebrate
the beer. Buy yourself some socks, time give to the lord.
(48:10):
Buy yourself some draws you may know, some new draws.
You know your old draws too tight. Now you know
what I'm saying. You know your butt crack showing. You
know what I'm saying. Get you some new draws, you know,
just some little winds, just to be able to encourage
yourself to fight, to keep fighting, see said every now
and then. Come on, If every now and then you
don't do something to just take a time out, you're
gonna have no energy. To fight, but every now and
(48:33):
then and take me what you know, go go go
get a stake, even if you can't even afford it,
do it just to be able to get the energy
to go back there and keep investing. Come on, yeah,
just take a time out to do something, just just
just just for a second. You may not ever to
go to the Bahamas, but but but you can go
to you can go to Lake Austin or something. You know,
(48:53):
just just just something to get the practice of what
the wind gonna look like. Sometimes you need win practice.
That's good. You know what I'm saying. You need some
win practice. You know what I'm saying. Take take twenty bus,
take one hundred dollars, take a thousand, take five hundred,
and just do something. Just give you a taste of
(49:15):
what a win feel like, so that when you get
to the five thousand, it will overdo you and it
will drive you. You know what I'm saying, You'll be comfortable.
Come on, See, you got to be comfortable with the
five hundred, so that five thousand you won't be losing
your mind. So it's like, so the five thousand won't
mean that much, so it won't have you.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
You have it.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Come on, yeah, man, you gotta have that practice. You
know what I'm saying. And these are the good things
because most black men that have dadd is to teach them,
you know what I'm saying. For a lot of us,
this is the first generation of winners, your first generation
of entrepreneurs, first generation of dreamers. Everybody in this room
is dreamers. A lot of people watching us a dreamers.
So you gotta get the practice, you gotta get the person.
(49:55):
One thing that was a demise to my career is
that when you see pictures of a young Beyonce and
she's in her mama's high heels and she got a
mama's brush and she's singing around the house, guess what
they're doing. They're grooming her to be great. But in church,
if you in the mirroring, you're trying to do that.
Oh you out about yourself, stay humble. It ain't about you,
(50:18):
so that if you do get it, you don't know
what to do with it because you never had practice.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
O my god, today, you.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Never had practice. You never had practice.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
And then you'll struggle with self sabotage and success as
it falls.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
It's so good because you never had practice. Never had practice, practice,
practice winning. Practice with your five hundred dollars, practice with
your one hundred dollars, practice with your fably, practice winning,
so that when it comes more it will overdo you.
You'll be familiar with it and it won't be your God.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Brother, listen and see how quiet glory be to God Man,
Glory King came in here and cooked.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Glory be to God Man.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Oh glory, God cook sir dessert. I will tell y'all
get on to die because y'all full glory be to
God Man Man. In closing, always ask this question. Oh
you know, the name of the podcast shows just Heal.
And one of the things that I remember my therapist
(51:35):
asking me was Jay, what does healing mean for you?
And at that time I said emotional freedom, to be
free within my emotions, to express them and to not
be incarcerated. And I want to ask you that question,
what does healing means for you?
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Very quick on my tongue, because I live in it.
I heal as our, I heal as I reveal. Because
you have to participate in your own recovery. You can
go to the best doctor in the world. Every great
doctor has one thing in uniformity, that they say, tell
me where it hurts. Yep, you gotta participate. You gotta participate.
(52:18):
That's so so quick to tell my business. That's what's
so quick to talk about my my my my losses
and my mistakes of my past, because it heals me. See,
you can't use nothing against me that I already gave myself.
I told it, You're to tell it. So I control
my narrative. Man, I control my narrative, and I control
(52:39):
the process of my healing because I'm gonna tell it.
So I heal as I reveal, and it heals me.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
And I say this often, you can't heal what you hide, Yes, sir, yes, sir,
and sir king black man, my brother, when I tell
you you have I don't even have a word to
describe what just happened here. I know this. I needed it,
and I hope that you needed this as well. For
(53:12):
the men that are watching. My hope for you is
that you listen to this over and over and over
and over. I think it's so important for us allow
things to penetrate our spirit and to penetrate our minds. Scientifically,
the heart sends more messages to the brain, more so
(53:33):
than the brains send messages to the heart. And what
am I saying with that a lot of our hearts
have been broken, and when you have a broken heart,
the messages that are sent to your brains are fractured,
and sometimes the messages are distorted. And what I'm hoping
(53:54):
through this episode that you're able to reframe. That's the
word we use in clinical term, and reframe is not
to change, but it's really to change the picture and
to change where the picture is being seen from. Because
I can look at something head on, but if I
change position, it looks different. And one of the things
that I often do with clients and I'll say, I'm
(54:15):
going to reframe this for you. I'm not changing your story,
but I'll change your position in the story, so the
story doesn't necessarily look different, but your view of yourself
in the story shifts. So I'm hoping that there's a
shift that takes place when you listen to this episode
and when you watch it, and even for our women,
(54:36):
because you just got to hear two men openly share
our journeys, our journeys of success, failures, our insecurities, our thoughts,
and as my good brother said, I'll try because We're
all trying. Until next time, Kurt, I just want to say, brother,
(54:58):
thank you. Was me dinner too? Oh well we was
in California. No, but I oh you dinner. But I'm
looking forward to breaking bread man and continue to build
on this friendship. Man, you were gonna have a way
that Louis now yeah? Are you? Yeah? For y'all that
don't know Louise, they used to have this what if
that crusted fish? Yeah? That it's a rectang rectang my god?
(55:22):
Today did you like that? What? Man? That fish was banging? Man? Oh,
that fish was banking. You put a little tart on
the top.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Oh man, it is In general, thank you for tuning
in and I share today. We really appreciate. Please chewing
in next time.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
But man, listen, thank you guys for tuning in to
another episode to just here with doctor J. This has
been phenomenal and I'm being transparent. I needed this today
because the headspace that I was in is that I
didn't know if I wanted to keep trying in this
space and not because I couldn't. But sometime it's heavy
because we can make things look light. Yeah, and doesn't
(56:01):
mean it that it is. And so until next time,
remember healing is a journey and wholeness is the destination.
Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of the Black
Effect podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(56:21):
favorite shows. And you can follow me at King J.
Barnett on Instagram and x and follow us on YouTube.
Just Heal Doctor J.
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
another episode of Just Here with Doctor J. And I
am your host, Doctor J. Barnett. Listen. Some of you
have been eavesdropping listening to the episodes, but I want
to take this opportunity to invite you to subscribe. To
(00:21):
click that link and come on and stop flirting with us,
and you join this healing community. The thing that we're
doing over here is so phenomenal. We are changing minds,
we're changing lives, but more importantly, we're having impactful conversation
and dialogue not just around mental health, but around healing.
Healing our minds, our bodies, and our spirits is so
(00:44):
important for the time that we're living in. So I
want you to join our community if you can listen
on the Black Effect Podcast Network and also on iHeart
Podcast Network or anywhere that you listen to podcasts. All Right,
so you guys know that the month of September the
month of October that I have been working entirely to
bring some enlightening conversations and some powerful conversation. And one
(01:10):
of the conversations I've been eager to have is with
my brother, Kirk Franklin. You guys know him as a songwriter,
the producer, and all the accolades that you know he
has achieved. But today we get to sit down and
talk to the man and we get to have a
conversation not only with just the artist, but with the
man himself. So I want to welcome my brother, Kirk.
(01:33):
Are you doing King? Are you doing black Man? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
King?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Listen, Man, listen. I don't know what's going on, but brother,
it's like we was in each other's closets.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, well you wasn't in mine because you would have
been your dog show.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So, man, brother, I am so excited to sit with
you today, man and share space. We have an opportunity
to share space on your amazing show. And I just
want to say thank you for what you guys are
doing with the Den of Kings and having these man
it was these raw conversations that men don't get to have.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Nice and that episode had a lot to offer the man.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Brother Man listeners, Yeah, man, And so how did that
come about? You know, the Dead Kings? Then?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, you know, Den was birth out of my fifty
fifth birthday dinner. But Historically, I've always enjoyed sitting around
the table with people and engaging the conversations. I wasn't
raised with family, so I don't know how it is
to be at the table with mom and daddy and
siblings and just having engaging conversations. So when I got
(02:42):
older and started having groups and singers and musicians and
band and we would travel the world together, that kepa
started to be my introduction to table talk and table
conversations and and me being already automatically inquisitive, like I'm
one that's always seeking out information. And sometimes I'll even
(03:02):
be a spark starter, like I'll throw out something knowing
I already know what the answer is going to be,
but I just want to be able to stir the
pot on the table just to get it kate ofgoring,
so that people can jump in and have engaged in conversations.
I love elevating my mind and my my space with
(03:23):
intellectual debate and dialogue to be able to grow and
to be able to just inform others at the table
and just kind of pushed the narratives of just being
to really being informed and being aware and being challenged.
(03:44):
And so for my fifty fifth birthday dinner. I flew
to Atlanta because all of my god friends, majority of
my god friends living in Atlanta on my bros. And
so I had dinner with the bros. And that night
turned into one of those conversations to the point that
a couple of the guys that also produced with they
were like, bro, we think this may be a show. Yeah,
this may be a show. And so it started during January,
(04:06):
and we shot the first one in May. M so
and uh, well, like we shot the first two in May,
and I've been blown away by the reception. Like it's
been crazy, man, crazy.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah. When Phil, when Phil reached out to me man
and told me what he was doing, he was like, Yo, Man,
I'm getting ready to do something with Kirk. Bro, I
think it's gonna be amazing. And when he told me
the concept, I said, bro, it's gonna pop. Well he's like, man,
you think so? I said, Man, you know Phil is
my fraternity brother, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So then so, no matter came by all that. We
could get going wasting our time with all that, and
you know, just yo to the news and listen, Kirk,
did you said so?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Because I know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
People like all right, what what what fraternity here? Cap
Ific f Attorney Corporated.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
He was so happy to do that. He was so
happy to do that. He ain't picked them. No Bible
hit it for no biblist Green hit it for those scriptures.
Just Aiden. He got into it over tom By. So
now we go through that. But but but thank you
for even for seeing that it could be something that.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Because it's something that we don't have, king and it's
also something that is needed. You know what I've seen
over the past three years that I traversed his country
with my tour Just He'll Brou with four of my brothers,
Lemon Rucker, doctor Joel, Doctor O'shan, Lawrence Ajah, and I
(05:38):
called their name because what we did was was was historical.
It was the first mental health tour for black men.
From the book that I wrote, Just He'll bro and
I had a vision of it becoming a tour and
seeing what it could do for men. But it was
in the process that I saw men desired this. For
(06:00):
three years, thirty three cities, eighteen thousand men that we reached,
and one of the things that I was really challenged
with is that when I ended the tour in November
is I was like, man, God, I don't know what
to do with this, but I want to see something
else done where men can continue to see that their
(06:21):
space is created for them. And that's what Den of
Kings is doing. It's creating space for us. Because when
you talk about not having conversation with family and not
having conversation around you know, individuals that made it feel
like home, is a part of what you do on
(06:41):
the Den of Kings. Is that part of your healing journey.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I'm quite sure that there are effects of healing, but
that was not the modus operandi, that that wasn't the
agenda for then. It's more than anything, it was all
about the idea of men coming to other and having
conversations that really really felt like in the moment and
(07:06):
the camera was a spy in the room, that we
were authentic and true to just the moment of conversation
that a camera just happened to catch. Yeah, reversus a
production of a show. Yeah, And so I hope it
looks like that. It translates to that it appears like
it has, and that's a blessing in itself. So now
(07:30):
I'm cursure there's going to be residue of healing moments.
But I think more than anything, it's all about just
curating content and platforms that just speak in spaces that
have not had a chance to amm a voice.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah. I feel that because the tour, we didn't do
a lot of video because I didn't want the men
to ever feel like they were being exploited. And then
there were no women allowed, and we average anywhere from
three to six hundred men. And when I sat at
the table the Den of Kings, I often had men
(08:03):
who weren't able to attend the just He'll row events.
They often was like, man, what is it like? And
I think what you're doing is you allowing other men
to see what it's like that didn't have that experience
of sitting around the table but then not knowing what
it feels like to even have community. Yes, because in
that moment that we're sitting there eating, community is happening.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, yes, yes, And I think that man feed off
of community's I think that we're always looking for connecting points.
I think that's why sports is always such a big unifier,
and it's the thing that has no bias, no prejudice,
no confrontational aspect at the fundamental core of what it
(08:48):
is now. I never played sports, but I can tell you,
even as a grown man, I see the fraternities that
men naturally build through sports that I envy, Like like
when I when I watch men that they either played
sports or then and the sports, there's an unspoken language
and rhythm that men have their reactions to things. They're
(09:12):
engagement with things, where for me, somebody who's a creative,
and I've always been a creative my whole life, I
don't speak that language at all, Like I don't always
know the hype of certain things. So for me is
a man being adopted by a woman. I see the
deficiencies that I have that I envy from communities that
(09:36):
men have had. It's because you know, most men that
have lifelong friends it came through sports. They played sports
together in junior high, high school. So you know, like
you don't see a lot of friends that came up
playing the piano with each other and my dog play violin.
It's sister great. You know, it just doesn't happen. It's
(09:57):
not the same nature of fraternity show. A lot of
that natural matriculation didn't happen in the ecosystem that I
just matured in.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
As a creative. I had the opportunity to play sports
and to be a creative And that was the hardest
thing for me when it was over, which over football?
Is that locker room, man, It's all about the locker room, man.
It was the brotherhood. It was it was knowing that
(10:31):
I may not agree with my brother's view on life
or anything else, but man, when we cross those stripes, man,
I mean you would you would put your life on
the line for this. Dude. Man, we wouldn't have you know,
you weren't gonna drink no beer, you ain't gonna eat
no dinner with all of your teammates. But there was
this common goal and that was this objective that winning
(10:54):
was the outcome that we were working towards. So it
was it was missing, you know, training in the heat.
You know, it was missing you know getting up at
five o'clock, you know, five o'clock in the morning and
working and then trying to outwork each other. You know.
When I played arena ball, I came in as a
rookie an arena league, and there was a guy, most
(11:15):
of the guys that just they had been cut from
the NFL. And so at this time, Arena was his
fundamental lead. And this guy played seven years and he
was twenty seven. I came in at like twenty two
years old. I went undrafted and the coach brought me in.
I got brought in on a two day contract, and
I remember, like yesterday he said, you better come in
(11:38):
and you better do your thing other than that, I'm
sitting your ass home. This is what the coaches said.
He was like, you better come in. I'm sitting you home,
and now you ass home. Yeah, well is different sitting
in you home. I'm spending your asshole. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't feel no love
in that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah. And so it shifted something in me because I
went undrafted and this was my other opportunity that was
still connected to football and still connected to the NFL.
So it's like this is the only way that you
get back that was part of me. Like, man, I'm
not ready to give up what the locker room provided
for me. So I went in there and went crazy.
(12:20):
I ended up they end up signing me and cutting
the guy that because we were playing the same position.
But when I thought about what I was not ready
to give up. I had to ask myself why it
was the only place that I felt accepted. Yeah, and
I don't think we talk enough about men needing to
(12:42):
feel belonging, acceptance. And even with our counterparts women, I
don't think they realized how important that it is.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
They have no idea. And I feel the same way
on stage or in the studio that I am my
most natural self in those states. That it's very it is.
It's very hard for me to learn the rhythm of normalcy.
It's difficult, it's diffic It's because normalcy for me, just
(13:15):
normalcy doesn't move enough, like I gotta have movement in normalcy.
A lot of times demands you to be normal all
you talking, you know. And so I find myself in
the the duality of reality, where where who I am
(13:37):
and what I do conflicts with the realities of often where
I'm supposed to be. And I'm fifty five years old
and still have not mastered that space yet. Like I
was in my therapist. I call my therapist yesterday evening
and I said, Hey, I need to come in for
for session this morning. And I was with my therapist
who's been my therapist for many, many, many years, incredible. God,
(13:59):
you know it's it's because I need those checkups. Is
because when I'm in Europe. I just came from Europe,
and you know, every night I'm in front of thousands
of people, and I was in Europe when America was
having this racial moment with Charlie Kirk, you know, And
so I'm in Europe watching America look like it's burning
(14:21):
and having all these conflicting emotions and feelings because I'm
watching the responses and the attitudes and everything of people.
And I wasn't even I wasn't even aware of who
charing to Kirk was until that moment. And so you
know that that's not normal. These these moments are not normal.
And then you know, I'm in five different countries. I'm
(14:42):
standing in front of white European people watching America had
this tension. And then I fly home and I'm supposedly normal.
Slot to ask, Slot to ask, like, can you imagine
and this illustration always yeah, Doc, can you imagine Mike
(15:04):
Tyson at his height when Mike Tyson was knocking his
out right, I'm telling like, you remember how much of
a monster Mike was, like right, right, right, and like
you'll know how much of a just an assassin he was.
Can you imagine him having a fight on a Sunday
knocking heads off, and that next Monday morning he got
(15:24):
to be in a pt ain't beating with his kid.
Can you imagine what type of mental psychological shift from
being an assassin that Monday. But his wife is expecting
him to be in that ptain't meeting and be normal
(15:45):
because he is a father too, So he's got that
responsibility and he's going to be judged on how good
he is in these different worlds. But these worlds are
polarizing spaces, and he's going to be judged and held
accountable to be good at both m.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'm tearing up part on nothing.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I don't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
When there's a moment that that it's profound, I have
to tear up a card man. So when I tell
you that is the war that I don't think people consider.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Especially women in our lives, especially the women in our lives,
it's because it's a perfect picture, and it is the
perfect picture example of the duality of reality that that
that we are expected to win in at at at
both times. But really those are two different people the
mic that need to be in the ring and the
(16:52):
mic they need to be the pizzaman. Those are not
the same people.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Not the same people, and you can't even think the same.
The thought process is a completely different. Yes, I was
just telling a friend of mine as and it's funny
that you're sharing that that as you were watching the
world from your last night. I flew back from New
York and I was on a boat last night with
(17:17):
three hundred European people talking to them about two of
their close friends and two of the construction owners of
their employees who had took their life and died by suicide. Jeez,
I'm on this boat, Kurt, and I'm feeling a ways
(17:38):
because I said to them that whether you're red or blue,
black or white, mental health is life in motion. But
the challenge is I'm giving life and to people who
don't look like me, people who don't believe like me,
who don't think like me, And in that moment, I
(17:58):
am expected to meet them where they are because there's
an expectation, yes, sir, And the expectation is that Doc
you got to meet us in a buddy of minds
was with me and he said, Jay, I've seen you
speak in a lot of different rooms. I'm interested in
how you're going to work this room.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Which could be unfair to you because it's like, are
you expecting me to fail? Are you expecting me to win? Like?
What is the nature of your expectation?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And when I grabbed that mic, there was a lot
of chatter because at the time, it's like a handful
of black folks and my buddy and a few people
that I know that came to support and they're standing around,
and it was the oddest thing because it's like all
these white folks on the boat. I'm thinking, man, this
cannot be Titanic too. I'm thinking that, But then I'm
(18:51):
also thinking, like, man, how do I engage with them?
And the moment that I grabbed the mic, what I
realized is what humanity is for all of us, the
process of navigating life's trials and tripulation that whether rich
or poor, black or white, gay or straight, no matter
what your belief system or what your social economic life
(19:13):
is going for all of us.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and our species does not give each and every
individual the grace that they may need to figure out
how to do the journey. It's almost like we expect
people to land and automatically know and know that but
but but but but our knowing is also mixed in
with her learning, So I may stumble, I may make mistakes.
(19:37):
So like, one of the biggest challenges I think that
has been even with Western Christianity, is that we expect people.
We expect people to learn a certain level and a
certain acumen of faith where they're learning the faith. Like,
you can't expect for me to be a five a
a what is called a five michelan aim a chef,
(20:01):
my first time in the kitchen, you know, like I'm
going to be in the process. You know, you can't
expect from me to be a super saint just because
I rock with Jesus. It's like and then unfortunately, sometimes
most of us we have to try to grow while
the camera is on, while the spotlight is on. And
that's subjective. I'm not talking about celebrity. Like it could
(20:23):
be the spotlight of your kids, it could be the
spotlight of your mom in law, it could be the
spotlight of of your coworkers. That a lot of us
are expected to win and know automatically while we're being watched,
and the level of performance anxiety that that can create
in humans. So I think what is the biggest addition
to our mental health is the lack of grace for
(20:50):
the human condition. Yes, it is. It is so disappointing,
and especially for us as people of color, the the
the harsh expectation and judgment when we don't get it
right from our own ads to mental health, because my nigga,
(21:13):
everybody trying, We trying. I'm trying to get to Jesus.
I'm trying to get to mintal health. I'm trying to
get to the bag. I'm trying to get to the kids.
I'm trying to get to wifey. I'm trying to get
to my old health. I'm trying to get to the doctors.
So you can put the little glove on. Have me
bend over and made me feel a little comfortable to say, Carl,
I don't want to do it, but I know I
got to do it because my people are dying of that.
(21:34):
You know what I'm saying. It's like I'm trying, and
I think that this lack of grace and not realizing
that we're all trying. Trying.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Man, that's a word.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
How cool to judge somebody in the midst of their tribe.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I'm gonna let that sick king, because I can feel
that in this moment. I was on the plane flying
back and that was my prayer to God and I
text CJ and he could pick up my energy and
he says, what's going on? I said, Bro, I want
to quit this healing stuff. And I said, I feel
(22:15):
this unfair. Yeah, because I'll show up in space is
king and I can't beat J. Doc.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
What is the word for today?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Doc? Can you make me feel better? Doc? Can you
give me some insight? Doc? Can you give me perspective?
And I'm sitting on a plane and I'm saying, God,
I need some insight right now because I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. I have been on planes and I said this
on one podcast on if we saw it on lou
Young's pod, because that's bro. I've been on planes and
people have gotten on planes and will see me and
they will say, oh, I know this plane is gonna crash.
We got God on this plane. And I'm thinking where
he at? Where got at? Christians? Dollar Christians dotald planes.
(23:03):
It's like this, this expectation that this plane is gonna
be it's gonna survive. Bok Up, I'm on it all
that kind of preser you know, you know or or
or or like for people to say that's stopping them. Awn, Yo, man,
will you pray for me? And I'll say yes, I've
been with that too, But I just need for you
to know your prayers are heard just like mine. But
(23:26):
as human and even since the beginning of mankind, we
have always made idols out of those we think are
oracles of God. We always have.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
How does how does that make you feel? Man? When
you when people walk up to you about asking a
prayer as if your prayer is better and and that
God is not hearing them because they're not where you at,
how does it make you feel?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
At times? They can give me anxiety, you know? And
then it just sometimes hurts me for the human condition
that we are naturally wired to believe that before God
we're not good enough, because that's that's really the language.
That's a saying I know I'm not good enough and
I know he is, but I know he is, and
(24:10):
they don't realize that I just got off the same
toilet seat she did. I just finished shaking at the
toilet like you just finished shaking. I just finished burping
a passing gas like you did like just because you
may not see my dirt, do main there ain't none.
And I just wish, I wish there was a way
to free people to know that the God that believes
(24:32):
in them believes in all of them, and that there's
never a time. Listen. I have kids, I have a
son that I don't agree with everything he does, and
he breaks my heart in the hurstry. But guess what,
his last name is still Franklin. That don't change his name.
What he does does not change who he is. He's
(24:54):
still a Franklin. And I just won't. I need for
people to understand that no matter what you do wrong,
God doesn't take back. He created too hm and he
never will. He never will. So at that moment, you're
always good enough when you accept His son as your
personal savior. My nigga, the chop is done. It's done.
(25:14):
It's done. It's done, it's done.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And but you know, the enemy's job, Kurt, is to
pulverize and to get you to not think that you
are enough.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yes, and what.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I see, particularly for people of color, I'm the son
of a pastor. My father's a pastor a Baptist church,
and I can remember as a kid. The amount of
people who because in the South they call you reverend
you or.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Rare you know, or doc god doc he had been
to no school, ain't been to no school, and ain't
been to no school. You can listen and I could
just think, agree up there ridden a crayon, you know what?
(26:06):
Well more? And why don't they ever use their whole
first name? Doctor A. E. Johnson, the doctor C. B. Smith.
It's like you embarrassing your name. But you know it's like,
you know, like, don't nobody use their person and not
better use your first name, the name Craig, Say Craig Craigs,
that are doctor C. B. Jackson? No, my name, your
name Craig, Craig Jackson, any flight Craig.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And so I can remember how he was pulled in
all of these different directions. And I think the most
difficult thing that that I've seen as my father has
age is he had this high level of spirituality but
a very low level of his individuality.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Man, I don't think my father really knew who he
was outside of being a pastor. Like I'm the conversation
that I'm having now with him in his sixties, they're
so spaced out and it's hard for him to even
listen as a father because he only knows how to
respond to rev.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And that's that generation of Black church culture.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And so my question for you is what was the
turning point for you? Or if there was, how did
you navigate on and maybe you still try and how
did you navigate on the performer and the man?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Oh, when I get that right, I'll come back. When
I get that right, I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, Oh no, I love it. Oh no, I don't
know if you ever. It's because they're so intertwined. That said,
they are so much part of the DNA of who
you are are that that when you are passionate and
committed to your craft, that you don't know a lot
of times when the lions are like you. Hear Denzel
(28:12):
talk about how it took months for him to get
the character of Malcolm X outside of his body because
he embodied that character so much. You hear how actors
transform themselves, but sometimes it drives them crazy because they
became so much of that. You hear about Heath legendary
before he was Bedford took his life. How when he
played the Joker, How playing that character almost took him out.
(28:37):
And I just think that it is very difficult to
want to be committed to a high level of your
craft and turn that off and on. And I think
you see it in athletes. I think that when you
hear Kobe and when you hear Kobe and how he
was so committed and how but at the same time
you hear how he was a butthole, right, you know,
or you hear how Jordan was, you know, an a
(28:59):
hole you know. But these are highly, highly functional men
that succeed at levels that we aspire. So the thing
that we like about them mosto becomes the thing that
we hate about them. Here it is, and I don't
know how, once again, how we manage our expectations. Like
(29:19):
you see how brutal the sport of football is, but
then you give a nineteen twenty yard kid millions of
dollars to play it, his health is not going to
be the first thing on his mind. But then when
something happens, how disposable they are. So you know, it's
I think that we contribute to the asset that people
(29:40):
fall into when it even burns their own skin, is
because we are purveyors of it, and we're warriors of
watching them either succeed or self destruct or both. At
the same time, you were great at your sport, but
now you can hardly walk and all of those cheers
can't fix those needs that are banged up. So you know,
(30:02):
it is a very it is a very difficult conundrum
that can be It can be it can be a
time hypocritical, it can be dysfunctional one at the same
time beautiful.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, it's almost oxymorantic.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Always always, and that's what greatness has always been born at, right,
It has always been in the tension of both. You know,
it's I think that great people live in tension. So
what has to happen is when it comes to mental health,
you have to also be be proactive and understanding that
(30:41):
sometimes the high highs and low lows it exists in
people that are highly functional that we have to have
the tools already going in. Like what I try to
do is because I struggle with highighs and lowers because
I am I'm a dog when it comes to work,
I'm a dog. I'm a dog. A new artist will
(31:03):
never be be being in a student. I'm gonna be
there before you and be there after you. You're not gonna
sign more autographs. You ain't gonna kss more babies. You
ain't gonna shake more heads. You ain't gonna say thank
You're not gonna do more interviews than me. You're not
gonna be in a sessions longer than me. You're not
gonna take as many takes as me because I'm a dog,
because I can't afford to not be liked. I'm driven
(31:25):
by my trauma, but I've learned to drive it there.
I don't drive it into alcohol. I'm driving in the
drug because it's gonna go somewhere. Come and everybody pray
it away. No, my make shure. If you've never had it,
you don't realize it. Some thorings you live with. Some
thorns you can't pray away. Listen, one of my heroes
theologically said, whatever pushes me to my knees is.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Good my God today.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Man.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
When not my God today, c J, I'm out of
call my God today. When I tell you you have
just given me language to be a survivor of two
suicide attempts to know what it's like to look death
(32:22):
in the face. There was a season, and I can
talk this with you because we understand not only just
the hermoneutics, but also biblically and spiritual warfare. I remember
a season king where there were evil spirits that would
(32:43):
circle my bed every night, and I can hear them saying,
we're going to kill them. And this lasted probably about
a year, and I would go to bed terrified, and
I can them when they were coming well, and I
can feel their presence, and I would just pray, just
(33:06):
pray and pray and pray. And to be on this
other side sharing that, because to be on the other side,
why I don't have warfare. That's also the thing that
drives me to pour and to help others heal.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, So when you just said the trauma drives you,
because as a part of me, and I'm just being
so transparent, there's a part of me that's afraid to
be back in that space because it's somewhere, because it's
going to go somewhere. And that is the hardest thing
that even as I stood on that ship last night
and these white men are saying, hey, brother, you touch me,
(33:46):
because it wasn't so much that I looked like them,
it was that I feel what you feel.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, and
the problem is, if most men will admit it, seven
to eighty percent of our time is probably we're afraid.
We're scared scared. We're scared we're not gonna have the money.
We're scared of having a retirement. We're scared we're gonna
get an erection. We're scared, we're not gonna be able
to survive. We we we're scared we're not gonna be
able to We're scared of having a stroke, We're scared
(34:12):
of having a heart attack, We're scared of having cancer.
We're scared our wives are not going to levels at
the end of the real lust that we were, we're
we're we're scared of the secret struggles. We're scared. We
we live our lives in fary privately, and it comes
out in this in this toxic masculinity, because the truth
is inwardly we are scared, and the fear is erased
(34:35):
when you can finally get the microphone and another man
looks at you, dead in the face and say to you,
me too. H. There's something about healing and community when
you know you not alone, sir, That alone is your medicine.
Does healing when you know you not alone, because most
(34:56):
men think they're the only ones going through this, And
especially when you're pregnant with purpose, especially, you ain't never
You ain't never seeing a woman deliver a baby and
she in hospital, smoking cigarettes and just and not eating
for Frido chips and just chilling. She is an agony
pushing giving life to something is always going to be
(35:18):
connected with the death of something else. Ain't nobody chilling
giving babies. They ain't nobody to send around whistling and
having fun. And you ain't never seeing a woman just
comfortable giving a baby. She is in agony, almost facing
death herself. So what a lot of men feel when
they're on the edge of that despair and that emotion
and that anxiety they have given so much of themselves.
(35:39):
Just a me too. It's therapeutic and healing.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Because you just gave me my me too moment, because
I could feel this purpose. I can feel this thing,
and I've ran from it, and I've run from it,
and I know that it's healing. I know that it
is cathartic. I know that it is freeing and liberating
for so many men. But I'm sitting on the plane
and I'm saying to God, what about me? And the
(36:06):
thorn is often that you are healing while bleeding at
the same time, because while I'm free in this, there's
something that still has me bound that I am wrestling
not with letting it go, but it has a hold
on me.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And anybody great does anybody great does it? It is
an insult to greatness the thing that comfort will be included.
It's an insult to greatness. Like you always see the
new people in the gym. You can always tell the
people of the gym that are new. They don't have
(36:43):
the commitment there. There are there the sweats and the
warm ups and a headbance all match. Everything is cool,
the shoes are clean and pretty, and they get on
the treadmill five ten minutes and get out who you
know and and they want to wrong when you go
to the gym and people that hit on the match
and then to look at cute like you know what
I'm saying, like real, you know where, you know where
(37:04):
you care about? No fashion, But people that go to
gym and fashionable are always one that are least in
shape because the external is more important for them than
the internal. But them internal wars. Those are the people
that are giving birth to greatness. If you not struggling,
I would say you're not great. If you're not struggling,
(37:25):
or if you're not struggling, you have not yet tapped
into your greatness. Because the seed of greatness is inside
of every human it's inside of every human being. But
they're not willing to pay the price to lay in
that bed and give delivery and be uncomfortable. That's why
everybody sits on the bench, because nobody wants the price
(37:47):
of being uncomfortable. That's why that's why you can be
afraid of your trauma. You gotta embrace the unrealities. You've
got to be able to embrace the tension and the
problems and the pain is because anybody that has ever
overcome anything has never had a first class ticket to
get there. It is the pain of coach, it's the
(38:10):
pain of spirit of airlines. It's losing your luggage, it's
losing your mouths, it's losing your mind. The insanity. Yeah yeah,
so men, men just need to be comfortable and to
be able to have the village. And we've got to
get rid of the comfort of our own masculinity and
(38:30):
the byble. Say like I was going through something and
one of my mentors, I found out that he was
going through something too, And what hurt me was he
never let me know that he was going through it too,
that he has no idea how healing it could have
been for me. And he got to tell me all this business,
but to just be able to look at me and say, son,
(38:53):
me too, I know how you feel just that alone
because men beat themselves us up. We beat ourselves up,
and we beat ourselves up, and we just need somebody
to be able to say to us. I got like
my therapist, like today when I was in therapy and
(39:13):
I and I was laying all my junk out and
I said, and he's also a Christian, but you know
of course he's PhD. And I said, and when I
when I finished, I said, how am I doing? I
always want to know how am I doing? It's because
I need to know from him how am I doing?
Because I don't want to talk myself well if I'm
still sick. Come on, see what I'm saying, like, because
(39:36):
you know, when you go to therapy you're getting it
all out and I don't want to talk well, but
I'm still sick, So I need somebody to be able
to channel back to me when I'm saying and when
I'm giving back, because I want to know how am
I doing, because I need to know where I'm landing.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
So let me take that moment to excel this. This
is this is therapeutic, this is healing that it's almost
like and I knew that this encounter with you and
this session and discussion would be what it is because
(40:12):
of the way the enemy fought my mind today because
Bro I was on the plane texting CJ and I'm like, Bro,
I quit man well because I can feel God expanding me,
I can feel them stretching me. I can feel him
calling me higher in what I do for men and
for people, and I'm saying to him, I don't want
(40:35):
to go this big. Let me stay here, And not
because I'm afraid of big, but oftentimes I'm afraid of
the responsibility that comes with big.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let me tast I'm kink. If people could really see
and the majority of my career, if they could have
seen my if they could have seen my bank account,
it would be embarrassing. The amount of money that people
don't know I really don't have because I haven't vested
so much into my dreams. You have no idea, You
(41:04):
have no brother, if you if you knew, and then
because we we we're in a culture of fake it
till you make it. I still got a little rob boy.
Wife has still got to be whooped to whoop to whoop.
The kids can't look like they from Ethiopia with the
big ballet. You know what I'm saying. It's like, you know,
everybody's still got to have a little drip. And it's like,
(41:25):
you know, you robbing Peter to pay Paul, You're for
the RS somebody, Hey, hey, hey, I promise I'm gonna
get it to you. Let me get on a payment plan.
Will you know what I'm saying, It's like you you
do man. People have People have no idea what it
costs to even to even not whining, but just to try,
(41:46):
just to try. Whoso Oh I would be embarrassed if
most of my career people sell my bank account. Oh yeah,
I've invested so much money to trying, just trying. Oh money, damn.
I didn't even know why that was moving around. She's like,
(42:08):
we can't afford again. It's because I don't want her
to feel Yeah, it becomes still a man, and I
can't say no if she wants something, because that's what
men do. Men say yes.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Even when the yes hurts.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
When they yet serve. So let me go jump on
another stage. Let me go do something just to make
sure that they don't feel nothing while I'm still drinking,
while I'm still trying. Ain't even one yet, ain't even
it even came to fluition, but just to pay to try,
just to try, Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. It's
(42:45):
all part of mental health. It's all part of the journey.
And God is so good because in that he's with us,
He's with us, he's with us, He's with us. And
when you think you losing your mind, I remember two
years ago, this whole thing came up by my father
and me finding out what God. You know, one nigga
(43:07):
I told my father, ain't the negatives my father. The
other nag was my father, and was like, I don't
mean nothing. Your niggas be my father. You know what
I'm saying. And I remember walk working on that project
and being in the studio and I spent the night
that night, and I have a gun that was on
the side of my bed that I keep on studio
by myself, and it was a night that I was
uncomfortable having that gun by me. I was uncomfortable. I
(43:29):
felt the anxiety and the little depressed, you know, I
was just uncomfortable psychologically. I could feel I was uncomfortable
being by myself with a gun. And I called my
homeboy and I said, hey, man, come to the studio
and come get this gun. Just come get it, keep
it on you for a minute. He came and we
walked outside of the night. I got some bed. You know,
(43:49):
I did my breathing exercises. It's because but but but
all of that is happening in the middle of giving
birth to something. Or you're most vulnerable when you're giving
birth to something, to something. Oh man, I can't tell
how many payment plans I've been with iris, just trying
(44:12):
to keep people paid, just trying to keep money flowing
while you trying. Why are you trying? The Price to Try?
And that's a book, The Price to Try.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I had a book title man.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Man, brother, when I tell you have some better than me,
the weight that has just lifted from me, just from
you sharing. We not only watched your career, but we
(44:51):
just watched like I remember when God's Property came out.
I think I was in high school and and Stump
was out. And just to hear, you know, the criticism
around the sound and around the creativeness and all of
those different things, and to see that you're still here.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
During it at a high level, by the kindness of God,
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
But I just want to say, Man, how proud I
am for you, Man for just continue the journey, because
as a black man, I often tell Bishop Jakes when
we're having our conversation, I said, Bishop, to see men
like yourself and to see men like you to continue
to do it at a high level as you have age.
(45:39):
It's been a blessing. Yeah, to see you do it well.
But what I have appreciated over the years is the
authentic versions that you've allowed us to see and to hear.
Because I didn't get to see who my father was
as a man, so unfortunate. You got to see what
(46:01):
caused the divorce. I got to see the different things
that we found out, but I didn't really get to
see it where he says, Son, these are my struggles, yeah,
and have freeing that would have been man Son, This
is where I went wrong. Son, This is where I
could have done this different. You know, he get to
(46:21):
look at me now and get to share how proud
of he. You know how proud he is, and that's
been great. But what I have longed for for so
long is for a man to do what Jesus did
to the disciple. Show me where the holes are, yet,
let me feel where the hole is. Let me see
the womb, because when I see the womb, I know
(46:42):
it's real. I know you real.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Did you ever hear that song under what you look
at for album? My second I'm so called. Let me
touch you and see if you were real. Even though
my heart I know your hands can heal, but sometimes
I get discouraged and I need your strength and hill, Jesus,
let me touch you and see if you are real.
Sometimes to me you seem so far away, and I
wonder if I could just make it through the day.
(47:05):
But if I can touch the hem of your garment,
your power, I know I can feel. Jesus, let me
touch you and see if you are real. And I
do want to say that all the brothers, even in
that conversation a minute ago, just talking about the financial contribution,
that you're making to yourself. Don't measure the payoff by
(47:26):
the ground, because it's easy to look at the GRAM
and see what other niggas are doing and see what
other niggs are having. Don't judge the payoff of your
the investment in you if it don't look like what
you see on the ground, because I promise you the
GRAM is full of filters. Those are filtered pictures. You
(47:48):
have no idea what's real behind that Pierson. So do
not set yourself up for fare and rejoice in the
little successes, the little winds, the little doves. Man, But
you invest in yourself. Celebrated, celebrate a little dub, celebrate
the beer. Buy yourself some socks, time give to the lord.
(48:10):
Buy yourself some draws you may know, some new draws.
You know your old draws too tight. Now you know
what I'm saying. You know your butt crack showing. You
know what I'm saying. Get you some new draws, you know,
just some little winds, just to be able to encourage
yourself to fight, to keep fighting, see said every now
and then. Come on, If every now and then you
don't do something to just take a time out, you're
gonna have no energy. To fight, but every now and
(48:33):
then and take me what you know, go go go
get a stake, even if you can't even afford it,
do it just to be able to get the energy
to go back there and keep investing. Come on, yeah,
just take a time out to do something, just just
just just for a second. You may not ever to
go to the Bahamas, but but but you can go
to you can go to Lake Austin or something. You know,
(48:53):
just just just something to get the practice of what
the wind gonna look like. Sometimes you need win practice.
That's good. You know what I'm saying. You need some
win practice. You know what I'm saying. Take take twenty bus,
take one hundred dollars, take a thousand, take five hundred,
and just do something. Just give you a taste of
(49:15):
what a win feel like, so that when you get
to the five thousand, it will overdo you and it
will drive you. You know what I'm saying, You'll be comfortable.
Come on, See, you got to be comfortable with the
five hundred, so that five thousand you won't be losing
your mind. So it's like, so the five thousand won't
mean that much, so it won't have you.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
You have it.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Come on, yeah, man, you gotta have that practice. You
know what I'm saying. And these are the good things
because most black men that have dadd is to teach them,
you know what I'm saying. For a lot of us,
this is the first generation of winners, your first generation
of entrepreneurs, first generation of dreamers. Everybody in this room
is dreamers. A lot of people watching us a dreamers.
So you gotta get the practice, you gotta get the person.
(49:55):
One thing that was a demise to my career is
that when you see pictures of a young Beyonce and
she's in her mama's high heels and she got a
mama's brush and she's singing around the house, guess what
they're doing. They're grooming her to be great. But in church,
if you in the mirroring, you're trying to do that.
Oh you out about yourself, stay humble. It ain't about you,
(50:18):
so that if you do get it, you don't know
what to do with it because you never had practice.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
O my god, today, you.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Never had practice. You never had practice.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
And then you'll struggle with self sabotage and success as
it falls.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
It's so good because you never had practice. Never had practice, practice,
practice winning. Practice with your five hundred dollars, practice with
your one hundred dollars, practice with your fably, practice winning,
so that when it comes more it will overdo you.
You'll be familiar with it and it won't be your God.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Brother, listen and see how quiet glory be to God Man,
Glory King came in here and cooked.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Glory be to God Man.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Oh glory, God cook sir dessert. I will tell y'all
get on to die because y'all full glory be to
God Man Man. In closing, always ask this question. Oh
you know, the name of the podcast shows just Heal.
And one of the things that I remember my therapist
(51:35):
asking me was Jay, what does healing mean for you?
And at that time I said emotional freedom, to be
free within my emotions, to express them and to not
be incarcerated. And I want to ask you that question,
what does healing means for you?
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Very quick on my tongue, because I live in it.
I heal as our, I heal as I reveal. Because
you have to participate in your own recovery. You can
go to the best doctor in the world. Every great
doctor has one thing in uniformity, that they say, tell
me where it hurts. Yep, you gotta participate. You gotta participate.
(52:18):
That's so so quick to tell my business. That's what's
so quick to talk about my my my my losses
and my mistakes of my past, because it heals me. See,
you can't use nothing against me that I already gave myself.
I told it, You're to tell it. So I control
my narrative. Man, I control my narrative, and I control
(52:39):
the process of my healing because I'm gonna tell it.
So I heal as I reveal, and it heals me.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
And I say this often, you can't heal what you hide, Yes, sir, yes, sir,
and sir king black man, my brother, when I tell
you you have I don't even have a word to
describe what just happened here. I know this. I needed it,
and I hope that you needed this as well. For
(53:12):
the men that are watching. My hope for you is
that you listen to this over and over and over
and over. I think it's so important for us allow
things to penetrate our spirit and to penetrate our minds. Scientifically,
the heart sends more messages to the brain, more so
(53:33):
than the brains send messages to the heart. And what
am I saying with that a lot of our hearts
have been broken, and when you have a broken heart,
the messages that are sent to your brains are fractured,
and sometimes the messages are distorted. And what I'm hoping
(53:54):
through this episode that you're able to reframe. That's the
word we use in clinical term, and reframe is not
to change, but it's really to change the picture and
to change where the picture is being seen from. Because
I can look at something head on, but if I
change position, it looks different. And one of the things
that I often do with clients and I'll say, I'm
(54:15):
going to reframe this for you. I'm not changing your story,
but I'll change your position in the story, so the
story doesn't necessarily look different, but your view of yourself
in the story shifts. So I'm hoping that there's a
shift that takes place when you listen to this episode
and when you watch it, and even for our women,
(54:36):
because you just got to hear two men openly share
our journeys, our journeys of success, failures, our insecurities, our thoughts,
and as my good brother said, I'll try because We're
all trying. Until next time, Kurt, I just want to say, brother,
(54:58):
thank you. Was me dinner too? Oh well we was
in California. No, but I oh you dinner. But I'm
looking forward to breaking bread man and continue to build
on this friendship. Man, you were gonna have a way
that Louis now yeah? Are you? Yeah? For y'all that
don't know Louise, they used to have this what if
that crusted fish? Yeah? That it's a rectang rectang my god?
(55:22):
Today did you like that? What? Man? That fish was banging? Man? Oh,
that fish was banking. You put a little tart on
the top.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Oh man, it is In general, thank you for tuning
in and I share today. We really appreciate. Please chewing
in next time.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
But man, listen, thank you guys for tuning in to
another episode to just here with doctor J. This has
been phenomenal and I'm being transparent. I needed this today
because the headspace that I was in is that I
didn't know if I wanted to keep trying in this
space and not because I couldn't. But sometime it's heavy
because we can make things look light. Yeah, and doesn't
(56:01):
mean it that it is. And so until next time,
remember healing is a journey and wholeness is the destination.
Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of the Black
Effect podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(56:21):
favorite shows. And you can follow me at King J.
Barnett on Instagram and x and follow us on YouTube.
Just Heal Doctor J.
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