October 28, 2025 • 49 mins
Dr. Jay Barnett sits down with Dr. Joel Tudman for a powerful and transparent conversation about healing, self-discovery, and the importance of community in personal growth. Together, they explore the emotional and psychological challenges of finding one’s identity, the transformative role of therapy, and the impact of friendships and support systems in the healing process.
Dr. Tudman shares his personal journey, reflecting on the struggles of confronting pain, embracing vulnerability, and doing the inner work necessary for growth. The discussion emphasizes that healing is not linear—it’s a continuous process that requires courage, consistency, and self-compassion.
Be reminded that the path to purpose often begins with discomfort, and that true healing happens when we surround ourselves with people who hold us accountable and uplift us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
another episode Just Heal with Doctor J. And I am
your host, Doctor J. Barnett. Listen, some of y'all have
been eavesdropping in this healing community, and I want to
encourage you stop eavedropping. Man, go ahead and subscribe and
(00:22):
join this healing community by subscribing to Just Heal Doctor J.
And you could also listen audibly on Spotify, the Black
Effect Podcast Network, and on iHeart or anywhere you listen
to podcasts. We are doing some amazing things in this
healing community. And you know, my goal is to bring
conversations that's going to bring enlightenment where individuals are sharing
(00:45):
their journey and also sharing their life. You know, I
think it's important that we share our life and pieces
of our life to encourage others to begin healing, going
to therapy, going to coaching, seeking counseling, whatever that looks
like for you. So today I am honored to have
the original good Brother with me. Listen. I've been waiting
(01:07):
on this episode, man, for a long time. We have
been talking about doing it, but I now I think
The timing of it couldn't be more perfect because my brother,
my best friend, got a new book coming out. Listen
the fight to find yourself, bringing to the stage, bringing
to our healing community, the incomparable, the magnetic, the powerful, strong.
(01:31):
The brother can sing, the brother can preach, the brother
can prophesy. As they said in coming to a marriage,
what don't he do, You're about to make me say,
coming to a brother? He terrible the baby. The man
got his own money, got his own money. Man. Welcome man,
doctor Joe Tuckman, my good brother. Man a man, I'm good.
(01:54):
Thank you so beautiful to see you do your element
and so many different facets. So first, before I say anything,
I just want to thank God for you. I want
to thank God for our friendship and to see you
do your thing in so many different ways. It's so encouraging.
So man, I want to say to you, I love you,
I thank God for you, thank God for who you are.
(02:15):
The boy got his own money. The boy got his
own he got his own money. Yees, sir, man, It's beautiful. Man,
do you think? Man? Man? Listen, brother, I mean you
know how I feel about you. Man. I love you
to the moon. And back. Man, I am so proud
of you man. To see this book, to see the
(02:37):
work and the ministry that God is allowing you to
live out in real time. It just blows me away
because I often think back to my friend Nicole when
she first sent me your video you preach it, and
she was like, hey, I found your spirit animal. She's like,
you gotta go listen. We're gonna be real now. This
(02:57):
is the good doctor and the good Bishop, but we're
going be real today. My friend the Cole was like
this Nigga's a beast. Just cur She's like, Jay, you
gotta go watch it. So she sent me your video
and I, you know, started going down this rabbit hole.
And I saw you in the in the in the
gym with the boys at Open Home the State, and man,
(03:18):
I was listening to you. Man, that's when you walking
over pew. Walking over pew was back then, man high stepped. Yeah,
I said, Man, this brother is me and man, it's
just been such a blessing to see God grow our
friendship and just to see God grow us, you know,
collectively as individuals. Man, I want to say this because
(03:40):
I know you. I know he's the host, but we
haven't say. I was at a service not long ago,
and then the you know, you don't have everybody getrough preaching.
They want to have a late night dinner, and that
dinner was actually healthy. But I was sitting in the room,
and all of the preachers have their friends. Now I
knew the people in the room. I didn't have anything
(04:02):
against anybody. Some of those guys are very good associates
of mine. But I didn't have like a dog in
the room, you know what I mean. So when I
was just looking around the room, I said, man, none
of my guys are pastors. And I sat back and
I thought about it, and I said, man, I'm so
blessed that they're not, because there's no competitive no competition,
(04:26):
there's no this is what I got, this is what
you got. We're so different, but yet we're so like.
You're in a completely different feel You are the man
of your field. And you know, we got some other
guys that we run with that are the men in
their fields. And I was sitting in the room, I
was like, man, I wish Jay was here, you know,
(04:47):
But at the same time, I'm like, I'm glad he's
not here because he's killing it. Where he is. He
in New York, he in Washington, he in Baltimore, he's
in the Bahamas, he's in DC. I mean constantly. But
I was just blessed to know that I have a boy,
I have a homie that's doing this thing in a
completely different field. Be for a second almost fell like, dang, man,
(05:08):
I need a homie. But then I thought about, man,
I got a dog. Yeah, I got it. Though he
ain't no preaching, but the reality of it is, he
is a preacher. If you've been to any of his sessions,
you're gonna get prophesied too. Before it's over. He gonna
lay hands on You're gonna put that good brother hand
on you before it's over. But I thank God for
our friendship. It is unique and it's powerful, and I
(05:31):
thank God for it. Man. I wanted to bring it
up because you were talking about friendship and I just
thank God for a friendship. God, I thank God for it.
You can kind of go into that j T because
you weren't open to friendship zero and so zero I
wasn't open to it. Had as an older guy, friendship
(05:53):
went south that I had for twenty plus years. So
I just wasn't open to being hurt again and not
so much being hurt again starting all over again, the
work that it takes to build something like that. I
just wasn't open for that. But I knew months later
(06:14):
that God sent you because you never left, like you
never walked away. You kept saying, mar I, gon'll be here.
Bro I disappeared on you like three or four times.
I was like, you know, but the dude never left,
So I knew it was a God assignment. And so, brothers,
if you are struggling with friendship, and not just brothers, women,
(06:35):
if you're struggling with friendship and you're older, give it
a shot. It's gonna feel uncomfortable. It's not gonna feel normal.
You're gonna feel like you're betraying your own borders, your
own rules of engagement. But it's okay because I remember
when we were on a session, and in that session,
(06:57):
you asked the audience, how does it feel if you're
choosing to be a certain way? How does it feel
to be that way? Being lonely don't feel good. Being
by yourself don't feel good. And you may think that
you're protecting yourself, You're not protecting yourself. You're alone, and
you're isolated, and you're only as good as your own
arms and your own two hands and your own two eyes.
(07:20):
But where you can get a good brother, a good
sister in your life that actually cares, And let me
tell you something is going to take you dropping your
arms to find out if somebody cares about you. You
can't have the knife and the shield in your hand
and think somebody's going to care about you, because you
owe that person is trying to be a friend to you.
(07:41):
You owe them the respect and the honor to let
them show you. And if you keep your defenses up
the entire time, you're going to eventually run away who
God sent to protect you and sent there to not
just protect you, to befriend you, to relate to you.
And man, that's what you've been. You've been that down
through the year, and I mean through the years, and
(08:03):
I wouldn't change it for nothing. I thank God for you, man,
and I pray that I could be to you what
you've been to me. And you have, bro you've been.
You've been an example as a father, as a husband,
as a man, as an oracle. You've just been a
great example. But what I respect about you Jay, You're
so real. Me and Kirk was talking about this and
(08:26):
we were talking about, you know, just real brothers. And
I told Kirk, I said, man, what I love about
j T. As annoying it as he is and as
powerful as he's a real brother, He's a brother's brother.
And that's what I have really embraced and love that
you've been able because you've been the big brother that
I needed. You've been the big brother that has provided perspective,
(08:50):
you know, expanded even my thinking, expanding even my understanding
and things. I think some of my greatest memory is
walking on a treadmill and you preaching a message. This
is how we used to walm up before we work out.
He will he will walk through his sermon and just
to you know, just the way your brain works and
(09:14):
just the way God allows you to dissect that word
and to really break it down, and I would just
be in awe. And also we're able to talk about
life everything, but talking about life piece is kind of
help me process the book. That's actually in the book.
When we start talking about the fight to find Yourself,
(09:36):
I talk about relationships, and I talk about our relationship
having someone in your life that can actually help course
correct you, that can actually be honest with you, that
you can actually be safe with, help you process, help you,
(09:57):
help you strip stinking thinking, but also have the potency
of thought and the potency of mind, the nimbleness of
the mind to be able to pour back into you.
Because I've always been the poorer. And so it's not
like that in our relationship that I can call you
and you're going to pour. I can call you, I'm
going to pour. It's not a one sided relationship. And
(10:20):
in the fight to find myself, our relationship is one
of the chapters making sure that you have someone in
your life that you can actually bounce life off of,
because life is crazy, man, and you've got to have
somebody in your life that can help you see right,
especially when you used to seeing wrong. Man, somebody in
(10:41):
your life to help you to see right when you
are accustomed to see to see and wrong. Man, I
y'all got to see the brother is already cooking. Man.
When you think about this book and think about the
last five years of your life, what was that? And
(11:03):
I didn't know that? That is so layered and so convoluted,
But what comes to your mind just to think about
what did you have to give up to find yourself.
Let me sum it up like this. I was a
performer and when I and I don't want you to
(11:25):
take the word performer and try to use pretender, it's
not the same thing. My performance defined me. How well
I did on stage, how well I did in any boardroom,
how well I did and any type of previous books
in school. The performance is what defined me. And so
(11:52):
when COVID hit, everybody's performance stopped and you had to
redefine or equip yourself to make sure that you could
stay out there. COVID was tough for me. COVID was
tough for a lot of people, and so I couldn't
perform like I normally perform. And when I couldn't perform,
(12:15):
I felt like I was losing my mind. And it
was at that moment that I realized, Hey, I don't
know myself outside of performing. And so since I didn't
know myself outside of performing, man, I started losing it.
I started eating crazy. All of my relationships went to shambles.
How I processed thought went to shambles. I lost my
(12:39):
son maybe a year later, and I lost my father.
So this avalanche of emotions that I had never acquainted
myself with. Those things were all foreign to me. So
now I don't know myself I got. I have an
avalanche of emotions that I don't even know how to
even describe. I can't paint. The only emotion that I
(13:02):
was good with and I didn't handle it well, So
that's an oxymoron. I just knew it better than others
was anger. The rest nothing had no words to understand me.
But at the same time, when I moved right after COVID,
I'm starting to rise back in my performance again because
(13:23):
I made this big shift. So my performance goes back up,
but the knowledge of self, it never rises. It takes
a back seat. So all of these years, I'm winning
on stage, but I'm dying as a man. I'm dying
as a son, dying as a father, dying as a friend.
(13:43):
Everything about me was going in the opposite direction while
the stage was taken off. Some people will call it fake.
It was me not knowing myself, and it was me
not being able to process. How do you win and
lose at the same time? And who can you tell
that to without them judging you? Who can you tell
(14:04):
I'm losing? But you're teaching in front of thousands of people.
You're going across the country. I got other books. I'm
selling books, I'm selling product, I'm going around the world.
But I'm losing as a man. I lost as a father,
I lost as a son, lost as a spouse, lost
as a friend, but winning on stage. And on Wednesday night,
(14:30):
Bishop Jakes talked about sortship and in the middle of
the conversation, we was all trying to be real proper,
he said, stop that, and man, I just blurted out
to now. I said, Man, I don't know who I
am at the age of forty I think it was
forty four. And I said, remember that night Washington, I said,
I don't know who I am. Tears came down my eyes, man,
and I was just like, I'm tired of this feeling.
(14:52):
I'm tired of the performance, and I'm tired of not
being able to just be me. Well, who is me?
Is it my father that I don't know me? Is
it my daddy's father. I'm too old to say that.
So I had to do the hard work of getting
to know me, and that was hard and it was brutal.
(15:13):
Where did you start therapy? I went to therapy. I
went to therapy. I would say therapy is the second level.
I'm not even gonna say therapy. It actually started when
you invited me to be a part of your tour.
Because when you invited me to be a part of
your tour, if you remember, I didn't even talk to
y'all on the trip. I was still on the back
(15:33):
row of the bus and just I needed to know
the script. Hey, what am I supposed to do? How
am I supposed to do it? And I stayed away
from them. I would laugh at certain jokes, but I
stayed away from y'all. But I was still thankful that
you allowed me to come. But it was difficult for
me to process, and as we went further, I got looser.
(15:54):
But all of that became therapeutic that allowed me to
get closer to you individually and then which made me
embrace therapily collectively holistically. Isn't bad. But it was a
lot of hard work, man, It was a lot of
hard work. And I'm glad I did it. I'm glad
I did. I remember you telling me that this should
wanted you to go. He wanted me to go. He
(16:15):
told me that he said, you let us see the
big old man, he said, but we need to see
the boy. Wow, we need to see the boy, he said.
The big old man ain't he ain't touching nobody. The
big old man on stage ain't touching nobody. The little
boys is gonna touch people if you get them to speak.
But you got to let that little boy out, he said.
(16:37):
Let me tell you something. And that's scary. And I
went to counseling and in therapy, it's in this book.
In therapy, the woman says to me, Joel, where's Joel at?
And I'm like about my daughter. She says, no, you
tell me. Close your eyes and tell me where where
(16:57):
Joel is? And I was like, I'm right here. She says, no,
I want you to go back in your mind and
your childhood and tell me whereas Joel and I saw
him man trembling in a tree. And I tell the
story and the book. I'm not gonna tell you because
that's some crazy stuff happened to me that I had suppressed,
(17:18):
that I didn't even know. I didn't remember because I
had dunked so much stuff on top of it that
I didn't want to remember it. And that's a part
of the hard work of healing, because healing is a
dirty business man. And I know it sounds good at
church when you can get the supernatural miracle, praise God
for it, you know, but all of us don't get
(17:40):
it that way. Some of us got to go dig
for it. And I had to dig past a whole
lot of stuff, and I uncovered some stuff that I
didn't want to see, but I needed to see it
so that I could find myself. Oh, you're making me
get nervous that we just gonna let that breathe Listen,
(18:07):
we probably gonna have a couple of card terror moments
in this episode. Already know I won't let that just
settle or just rest because you just that That's another book.
Healing is a dirty business. When you begin to look
at the things that you didn't want to see, what
(18:28):
was the first thing that you acknowledge about what you
didn't want to look at? What was the first thing
that stood out to you. I realized that that was
one of the first things that created my stands on
my persona toxic masculinity, that I had become something to
(18:51):
protect myself from what I saw. But I didn't know
that till I went and did the dirty business to
dig in to look and see it. I said, well,
maybe I'm like this because of that. And if that
had never happened to me. Now that's a big statement,
but when I looked at it, I realized that my
(19:11):
whole narrative, my anger, my stance, my disposition, my tone,
everything came from that. And if that had never happened,
I wonder what kind of person that would be. And
broke I had to. I had to. I cried. I cried,
I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried
because for years I let myself suffer in silence, not
(19:35):
understanding that if I had got help a long time ago,
maybe I could have fixed all the parts of me
that broke other people because I was broken and didn't
know it. Because I broke a lot of people, I
heard a lot of people. I heard a lot of
people unknowingly because I heard people hurt people and I
didn't even know I was hurt. So there's a lot
(20:00):
that I saw that I didn't want to see. But
I'm grateful that I did the work. I can tell
you that I am grateful that I did the work.
And it took a lot of time. Bro. Yeah, and
I'm just sitting here, man, this is so therapeutic because
I notice it's gonna bless somebody to go grab this
(20:21):
book because to see yourself. It's gonna cost you a fight.
It's gonna come with a fight. Rather, it's going to
come with a fight. And not only is it gonna
come with a fight, you gotta have the You gotta
have the fire to fight. If you don't have the
fire to fight, you won't fight. You'll let what you're
dealing with burn you up, it'll cook you. And so
(20:43):
that's the beauty of having a great relationship. That's the
beauty of having the tools that are necessary to fight.
And that's the beauty of actually, and I talk about
this at the top of the chapter chapter one, realizing
that you are the beloved of God. If you can
realize and I'm not talking church jargon, I'm just talking
about really reading scripture and understanding that you are the
(21:07):
be loved of God, the faster you can recognize that
that it doesn't matter the laundry list of wrong that
you've done and all of the facades a mask that
you've put on to pretend to be somebody else. If
you can recognize man, Yo, he loves me and I'm
jacked up. He loves me and I'm messed up. He
loves me and I don't even know what to do.
(21:29):
He loves me. I don't even know who I am.
If you can get that, then you have the fire
to fight. But it's hard to fight without fire. It's
hard to fight without the fuel to give you what
you need to come out of something that's had you
buried for years. And that's where I've been. Broo, somebody
(21:53):
that is like watching him, says doctor Joe. How do
I find that fire? Well, I can tell you this
right now. Everybody has the fire already in there. The
fire is already in you. You don't know it because
you've allowed stuff, challenges, circumstances, situations to snuff it out,
(22:16):
to blow stuff over it. But it's kindling underneath there.
Because you were built to fight. You were wired to
fight for yourself. But there's so much stuff that we
have that we've allowed to submerge. We've submerged ourselves underneath it.
So the first thing for me, because I'm gonna talk
to a Christian lens, is knowing that God is for you. Okay,
(22:38):
if you can recognize that he's for you, that's one
of the greatest assets, one of your greatest weapons. If
you can get to therapy. Therapy is going to give
you the tangible tools to help you understand what you
don't have words for, all right. If you can find community,
community is going to help you process out what the
therapist is trying to get you to do for yourself.
(23:01):
All right, Those three alone will help you persevere through
the moments where you don't have the phraseology, you don't
have the fire quote unquote to make it happen your circle.
The information, the wisdom that comes from it is going
to help you process through that. And as you go
through that, you're gonna have to make sure that you
(23:23):
stay committed to it, because you're gonna have moments where
you wake up when you're ready to go, and then
there's gonna be moments where you want to give into it.
I can't tell you how many times I want to say,
you know, I forget it. This hurts too bad to
fight something that that I'm dealing with that I don't
want to deal with it, forget it. I want it. Man.
(23:46):
There's many times where I was like that and you
called me, and he was like j T and I'm
like what. He was like, man, get up, get up,
and I'm like, Bro, I don't want to get up.
You're like, hey, bro, you're gonna get up. And then
if I didn't get up, this joker would call me
grown men look at him he called me, and be like, Father,
(24:06):
in the name of Jesus, touch my brother, Touch my
brother right now, in the name of Jesus. I don't
know what he's going through right now, but Father, bless
his mind, bless his soul, give him to get up,
touch his family, help him understand who he is. We
need you right now at this moment. And so Father,
I sacrifice my time to stay here and entercede for him.
(24:27):
That the devil is a liar. He can't have my brother.
The way I'm talking to you right now. That's how
the prayer would sound another man's voice praying about another man.
To find the fire to try, you cannot do it
by yourself. It's impossible to do. You have to have
somebody to do it. And all of this fighting to
(24:50):
find yourself is simply trying to align your purpose destiny,
to align the fire to and who you are your perspectives,
all with the right actions and choices so that you
are okay with being who you are, the good and
(25:12):
the bad. All things work together, well, you can get there.
That's what you know. You're there. Oh yeah I did that.
Yeah I messed up. Yeah that was terrible. Yeah, but
I'm so glad I did All of that bad stuff
has allowed me to touch so many men around the
(25:32):
world and say, you know, I'm struggling with the same thing,
me too. It's crazy is so many men need their
me too moments? Me too? Brother, me too? Me too?
I think as you just so eloquently put all of
that man and soundwich that together. Man, I we can't
(25:55):
echo enough how important community is. I think so many
brothers try to do it alone. And what it does
is it actually keeps you in isolation longer than you
anticipated because you're not wanting to be alone. But then
there's this guilt, there's a shame, there's this weight of
(26:16):
like what happens when I say to a brother, me too,
or I'm struggling with this, and what I'm hearing you
say is that if you don't have that you the
fire won't be ignited, won't You're not gonna burn strong
enough to fight. You'll have a little You'll have a
little kindle that when you feel like you got the
strength to beat something, you will fight it. But there
(26:39):
are gonna be moments when something comes upon you that's
burning stronger than the fire that you have. And you're
gonna do two things I'll talk about in the book.
You're gonna break down, are you gonna break through? And
you have to make the decision either you're gonna break
down or you're gonna break through. And I have broke
down so many times. I got tired of breaking down
in the same spot over and over and over again. Breakdown,
(27:02):
go good, break down, go good. Break down. So when
I got the tools that were necessary and the circle
that benefited me every place I broke down, I broke
through every single spot. So now I have a whole
other perspective of what it means to break through something.
And there's nothing that you're going through that you broke
(27:23):
down that you can't break through. You can break through.
When as you were talking about breaking down, break through
one of my I mean, there's a lot of messages,
messages that you preach that I've had the opportunity to
sit on. But the one that just always stands out
to me. And this happened there was at the party,
siuse yeah, my god today trying to feel your way
(27:50):
through life blindly. You talked about the blind man who
was blind, and you talked about coming out of a
dark after ben and his mother's womb in nine months
and coming out and still in the dark. What would
you say to the man that feels like he's in
a dark space right now, that he's in a dark
(28:12):
moment and we're hoping that it doesn't create a dark outcome.
Something very very simple to you. Everything that you need
to work in the light will work in the dark.
And you don't think about it because you see the darkness.
(28:35):
But if you take a look at the baby that's
in the womb, got hands, got as we were made
to see in the dark. We were made, we were
born in water for nine months, we were in a fat,
floating feeling our way through, kicking our way through. Everything works.
(28:57):
You can't let the dark stop you from using what
I gave you. You work in the dark. You can
move through the dark. You can elevate in the dark,
you can process in the dark. You can get a
raise in the dark. You can find a wife in
the dark. You can do everything in the dark, and
when the day hits you can be like, is this
(29:17):
what the day is? Because I've been doing this in
the dark all my life. That's what I have learned
that the dark is not my enemy. Dark is just
the absence of light, and that's all it is. That
when light hits you, and the only light you need
is the light of the Word of God and period.
(29:39):
So don't let the darkness drive you insane. Just burn
in the night. J T them priests about three or folks,
three or four different series over there. The day Man,
the fight to find yourself? How did that title come about?
Because I couldn't find myself and was embarrassing. It was
(30:02):
very embarrassing for me to say I was fighting to
find myself. But when hundreds of men started writing in
said man, I'm forty five, I don't know myself. I'm fifty.
Thank you for saying that. So at that moment, it's
kind of like what you just said about the dark,
I said, Man, why am I hiding this? Let me
(30:24):
fight in the public, let me fight in the dark,
and let me fight myself through and that's what it is,
and I meant every word of it. Fight to find myself.
Had to fight through the fear, had to fight through
the trauma, had to fight through the winds, I had
to fight through the losses, every piece of me. I
(30:48):
had to fight, and I'm gonna call to you probably
the most difficult fight false identities and identity foreclosure. That's
probably the hardest fight because we put on the identity
that we need to put on to make it in
whatever sector that we're in. So I had to fight that.
(31:10):
I had to fight that to dismantle that I needed
to be this way to make it, that I need
to be this to get over there, when in reality
I'm all of that. But I don't have to deny
pieces of myself so that this person will accept me.
On that person, I don't need to be with them.
God has the circle for me. Because I spent a
tremendous amount of time trying to get in certain circles
(31:32):
because I thought that man, if I get in that
circle right there, it's gonna be this I'm gonna be,
I'm gonna make it. And none of them circles accepted me.
I was trying my best to be seen by certain circles.
They ain't care nothing about me. They didn't want me
in those circles. I'll drive hours, fly, spend money, go
to the green room, still didn't get in the circle.
You shook the hands, you pay it. We paid the
(31:54):
fee to get in, sit in the front row, but
you didn't get in. I wasn't supposed to be in,
got it a different path, had a different path of me.
That was the hardest fight, trying to fight off what
I thought was success or what I thought was the identity,
the personification of what he wanted from me. And so
(32:16):
that false narrative, that false identity, and then what I
had foreclosed on myself, my own identity that I had
foreclosed on. So everything that I've come into was what
I thought. I didn't what I was ashamed of. I
didn't want that part of me to come out. I
thought it was stupid to be smart. When I was
(32:39):
in school, I was smart, but I acted stupid because
all of the good athletes was you know, I'm not
saying everybody is stupid, That's not what I'm saying, all right,
But the classroom that I was in, nobody was studying.
So I kind of stuck with that. You know, I
was just a different type of kid. But I foreclosed
on all of that and picked up a whole nother
(32:59):
style of living, a whole nother mode of behavior. And
at the end of the day, I have gone back
to the thing that I foreclosed on. I was a
little kid that would that we had a Kirby vacuum
that probably weigh a hundred pounds. I don't know if
you know about them. I remember them, really heavy vacuums.
Put the big face on. Yeah, we would. We usually
(33:19):
have one of the things that I was a little
kid man and I would I would be a traveling
evangelist in the house preaching. You know, the Christenchian call
was one hundred feet long. So I go through the
whole house running revival, praiase God. And I foreclosed on
all of that because I thought that was corny, thought
it was cornball, and I thought it was you know,
(33:42):
that's not who I am. And then here I am,
all these years later, and what people know me for
is preaching the Gospel. That's what they know me for,
preaching nothing else, preaching the Gospel. But I foreclosed on
all of that because I wanted to sell drugs. I
wanted to be a hero. I wanted to be a
ladies man. I wanted to be all of those things
(34:04):
and foreclosed on I could have been whatever God wanted
me to be when I was twenty, but I didn't
want to be what God wanted me to be. I
wanted to be what I wanted to be, you know,
and I think you know when we think about not
being what God wants us to be, and I as
we both were athletes. Being gifted as an athlete is
(34:26):
one thing, but being gifted spiritually and being gifted in
other ways that it's not celebrated because nobody's praising you
for singing and preaching. You know, when you when you
in your teens and your twenties trying to play ball,
it's like how fast can you run? How high you
can jump? All of those different things. And so I
(34:48):
share those similar sentiments because you know, I can remember
with my sisters, we stay in the house playing church
and I'm playing drums. How boss drums? You preach a
little bit and sing and just to think that God
has brought us back to who we were born to be,
and you can't help but to think about what he
said of Jeremiah. It is so I formed thee come on,
(35:11):
I knew you. Come on, bro, I knew you. And
getting us back to the place because not only is
that is that where we thrive, but it's also where
we get to live, like I mean and truly live,
not just existing, but to really live. And it brings
this question to me in this season in your life,
(35:33):
do you feel like you're really living now? That's a
great question. I think I am on the verge of
living my best life. I don't think I'm there yet,
but I think I'm closer than I've ever been before now.
And the reason why I say that because I've had
some different fights that I wasn't anticipating. But there are
(35:54):
fights that I found out that as you navigate us life,
you can't fight them. You gotta let God fight your battle.
And those battles morphew into who you are going to be.
And I don't think you're going to get there without them,
(36:16):
those battles that are not yours, but they are the lords.
But you got to go through them. But they're not yours,
but they're the Lord. Those battles help morph you into
who you need to be so that you can live
the life that God intended for you. Because I think
I'm at the verge. I think I'm at the door.
I'm living my best life. You know, you at the precipiceone. Yeah,
(36:36):
like you're right there, because just to see the levels
that you have graduated from, you know, from preaching in
the empty church during COVID and now all over the world.
You know, I remember when we were talking when this
(36:56):
is I think when one of his videos that they
added doctor dre Beat when it went viral. I called him.
I said, Nigga, you going viral? He said, Man, Dog,
that's crazy. I said, Dog, I said, I said, Jat,
you'd have made it. Oh, and that thing has been
reversed rehearse, replayed millions. Man, what was that like? Because
(37:18):
listen y'all to note JT. Bear he ain't with all
this just this, this this celebrity, this this popularity. He's
a country boy. Like like if we talk about this
all the time, when you really called and really God
has chosen you, but we're not running to get on stage.
(37:38):
In fact, you're trying to get away from it. How
to hit away from the stage because of what comes
with it. It's the stage with them lights will burn
you up. You know, everything you do, somebody don't like it. Yeah,
and so you always getting cooked, you know. So I
sometimes I don't want to be cooked. I just want
to just sit out in the audience and just chill,
you know what I mean. Forget that stage. But I
(38:01):
will tell you this, because I know we're getting ready
to wrap up. I want to say this to somebody
that's out there. When you fight to find yourself, there's
one thing that you're going to have to come to
grips with, and this is mess me up. You're going
to have to come to grips with the truth of
who you are. You got to come to grips with
(38:23):
the truth of what you're not, and then you're going
to have to deal with the fractures of the truth.
What I learned is that there's so many types of fractures.
When we play ball, stress fractures, spiral fractures. No matter
what kind of fracture it is, it's a fracture. And
(38:43):
there are things you can still do with fractures until
there's a certain impact that turns that fracture into a break.
And so you can only navigate life fractured so long,
and we don't know yourself. You're fractured when you don't
understand why you do certain things. You're fractured, and all
(39:07):
it takes is just the perfect blow. It could be
a child, it could be the loss of a career,
it could be a divorce, it could be you just
flipping out for a second, and that one blow could
shatter everything. Man, And you don't want to wait until
(39:29):
things shatter to fight, because now you're fighting handicaped. So
if you know you're fractured, and you know your fractured
because you can feel it. You can feel the pains
in the marriage, and you can feel the pains with your children,
you feel the pains on the career. If I were you,
I would get the fractured reset then while you're feeling
the pain, so you don't have to deal with the
(39:50):
severity of the blow when you're not taking care of
yourself when you know you're fractured, So deal with the truth,
deal with what's going on with you so that you
can heal correctly, because if you don't set that bone right,
you're gonna heal in a way that will hurt you
for the rest of your life. Then I don't know
if that's healing. No, no, not at all. And for
(40:17):
those that are watching, you know when I listen to
j T break all of that down. Many of you
are unable to fight because of the trauma, and some
of you may be doc what is trauma. Trauma is
a psychological or physical experience that has taken place in
(40:39):
your life that has negatively impacted you for the rest
of your life. And when he started off by saying,
to know that you are God's beloved, to add from
a clinical lens, you got to know that you can
rewrite the story and God. Here's the thing that God does,
(41:02):
just like Jesus told the man at the pool of
Salam Shalem, is will that be made whole? Come on, man,
you have to ask yourself, do you want to behold?
Do you want to fix the fraction? Wow? Wow? Wow,
you blessed you read this? You do you want to
fix a fraction? And here's the other part of that.
(41:24):
Once they have reset the fraction, you have to participate
in the doctor's order. Last chapter of the book. Wow,
I didn't even notice last chapter of the book. Writing
a new story the last chapter of the book. You
can write a new story. But you have to participate
(41:46):
in the healing process, right. And that's what he just said,
is that you can't keep working handicap. You can't keep working,
Hanney cal If you don't write a new story, you're
gonna keep telling the same story ten years from now,
fifteen years from now, twenty years now, thirty years from now,
(42:07):
and you're gonna be the same guy telling that same story.
And I refuse to be the same man telling the
same story. Someone ran a new story. And that's the
life I'm living now, the story that I want to live,
because he who has the pen can control the narrative. Woo, listen,
(42:32):
I'm gonna let you in here, y'all. Go get this book, man,
go get this book. As I ask every guest about healing,
and we were able to traverss country for three years,
thirty three cited, thirty three cities, reached eighteen thousand men.
(42:56):
And though we talked about healing collectively to men. And
this is a question that I would have loved to
ask all of us when we were on stage, or
I want to ask you, what is healing for you? Wow,
that's a powerful question. Healing from me is a daily process.
(43:19):
It is one step at a time, it is gradual,
and it's me embracing that I may feel what I
felt yesterday, but that doesn't mean that I'm not okay.
It's going to be okay even though I still feel
something that hurt me, and that I can take one
(43:40):
step at a time and ease my way out of
it and don't allow it to pull me back. And
I'm going to be as only as strong as my community.
So for me, it's important that everybody that I'm connected
to is not broken in the same area I'm broken in,
build a trauma bond with somebody and just stay in
(44:03):
the same cycle. So for me, one day at a time,
gradually not allowing my feelings to rule, but yet acknowledging
my feelings truthfully talking to myself and talking to therapy,
to a therapist and making sure that I'm talking to
a circle they can help pull me forward one day
(44:23):
at a time. Need I say more? Need I not
say more? Nothing? This needs to be said. Everything has
been said. Brother. I just want to say to you publicly,
man that I am proud of you, man, proud of
the man that you become, proud of the man that
you were yet becoming, brother, and I couldn't be more
proud of you for this book. We're calling it because
(44:45):
this will be a New York Times bestseller. We need
seven thousands copy Soul of Telling, and we're gonna get
it because I gotta get my brother to this New
York Times bestseller list because I know that this book
is written from a place of lived experience. It's not
written from something you heard, You lived it. And I
(45:09):
just want to say, Man, my mind, my love for
you as a brother, man exceed even what I'm able
to understand, because I'm just in awe in what God
has done through you, and it's just encouraged me that
it's possible if you stay on course. And then I
(45:30):
had to learn that when we're off course, we're on course.
And I know there's been times where you probably felt like, man,
what am I doing? And I thank God that He
is reassured you that you was doing exactly what He
caused you to do. Brother, and so Man, blessing many
blessing brother, thank you for sharing space with my audience.
(45:52):
They love these conversations. I know they love you because
my DM is always blown up with everything he got
going on and so I want to say to the audience,
this book released November four, five days from today. This
book is going to drop the Fight to find Yourself.
Go to the bookstore, go to Amazon, everywhere books are sold,
(46:14):
and go grab this book from doctor Joel Tugman. And
I'm telling you it's gonna bless your life because there's
so many people that are trying to find themselves and
they don't know where to start. They know that they're
in a fight, but they don't have the fire to fight.
And so I'm hoping that you go out and grab
this book to find yourself because it's gonna cost you.
(46:36):
It's gonna as as my old man just says, may
cost you a little, may cost you a life, but
it's gonna cost you. And the Fight to find Yourself
is the book that you need to find yourself. So brother,
thank you man, Love you man, Make you man for
doing this. Man again. Follow doctor Joel Tugman on Instagram, Twitter,
(47:00):
if anybody even use x anymore to it, but he's
on TikTok everywhere. Listen, man, go blow up his page,
Go blow up this book, because we definitely want to
make sure the world get this book. Man, because the
time that we're living in right now, I think we
need this because a lot of people don't know themselves
and they crash it out and we're wanting to challenge
(47:22):
and challenge people to find themselves. Man, Thank you, Doc,
I appreciate you, love you, love you man any last words, brother,
good Again, go out and grab this book, Doctor Joel Tuckman.
And also forward by our mentor and as we call him,
(47:42):
the greatest all time Bishop td Jakes. Listen man, and
what he wrote is killer too. Yeah. Oh, I know
you been the greatest all rate of all time man,
and we're so grateful to share space with him would
be remiss man, because Bishop poising to us man like
no other, and it's just a blessing to be able
to walk alongside him and for him to write this forward. Man,
(48:07):
I'm just blessed man that we're behind our brother, doctor Joel.
So again, go grab this book to fight to find
yourself moving from uncertainty to unstoppable again. Subscribe just here,
doctor j join the healing community. You can listen audibly
(48:28):
on Spotify, The Black Effect and also iHeart Podcasts or
wherever you listen to your podcast. And until next time,
remember healing is a journey and wholeness is the destination.
God bless Just here with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(48:51):
to your favorite shows. And you can follow me at
King J. Barnett on Instagram and x and follow us
on YouTube. Just Heal Doctor J.
Welcome to Just Heal with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
another episode Just Heal with Doctor J. And I am
your host, Doctor J. Barnett. Listen, some of y'all have
been eavesdropping in this healing community, and I want to
encourage you stop eavedropping. Man, go ahead and subscribe and
(00:22):
join this healing community by subscribing to Just Heal Doctor J.
And you could also listen audibly on Spotify, the Black
Effect Podcast Network, and on iHeart or anywhere you listen
to podcasts. We are doing some amazing things in this
healing community. And you know, my goal is to bring
conversations that's going to bring enlightenment where individuals are sharing
(00:45):
their journey and also sharing their life. You know, I
think it's important that we share our life and pieces
of our life to encourage others to begin healing, going
to therapy, going to coaching, seeking counseling, whatever that looks
like for you. So today I am honored to have
the original good Brother with me. Listen. I've been waiting
(01:07):
on this episode, man, for a long time. We have
been talking about doing it, but I now I think
The timing of it couldn't be more perfect because my brother,
my best friend, got a new book coming out. Listen
the fight to find yourself, bringing to the stage, bringing
to our healing community, the incomparable, the magnetic, the powerful, strong.
(01:31):
The brother can sing, the brother can preach, the brother
can prophesy. As they said in coming to a marriage,
what don't he do, You're about to make me say,
coming to a brother? He terrible the baby. The man
got his own money, got his own money. Man. Welcome man,
doctor Joe Tuckman, my good brother. Man a man, I'm good.
(01:54):
Thank you so beautiful to see you do your element
and so many different facets. So first, before I say anything,
I just want to thank God for you. I want
to thank God for our friendship and to see you
do your thing in so many different ways. It's so encouraging.
So man, I want to say to you, I love you,
I thank God for you, thank God for who you are.
(02:15):
The boy got his own money. The boy got his
own he got his own money. Yees, sir, man, It's beautiful. Man,
do you think? Man? Man? Listen, brother, I mean you
know how I feel about you. Man. I love you
to the moon. And back. Man, I am so proud
of you man. To see this book, to see the
(02:37):
work and the ministry that God is allowing you to
live out in real time. It just blows me away
because I often think back to my friend Nicole when
she first sent me your video you preach it, and
she was like, hey, I found your spirit animal. She's like,
you gotta go listen. We're gonna be real now. This
(02:57):
is the good doctor and the good Bishop, but we're
going be real today. My friend the Cole was like
this Nigga's a beast. Just cur She's like, Jay, you
gotta go watch it. So she sent me your video
and I, you know, started going down this rabbit hole.
And I saw you in the in the in the
gym with the boys at Open Home the State, and man,
(03:18):
I was listening to you. Man, that's when you walking
over pew. Walking over pew was back then, man high stepped. Yeah,
I said, Man, this brother is me and man, it's
just been such a blessing to see God grow our
friendship and just to see God grow us, you know,
collectively as individuals. Man, I want to say this because
(03:40):
I know you. I know he's the host, but we
haven't say. I was at a service not long ago,
and then the you know, you don't have everybody getrough preaching.
They want to have a late night dinner, and that
dinner was actually healthy. But I was sitting in the room,
and all of the preachers have their friends. Now I
knew the people in the room. I didn't have anything
(04:02):
against anybody. Some of those guys are very good associates
of mine. But I didn't have like a dog in
the room, you know what I mean. So when I
was just looking around the room, I said, man, none
of my guys are pastors. And I sat back and
I thought about it, and I said, man, I'm so
blessed that they're not, because there's no competitive no competition,
(04:26):
there's no this is what I got, this is what
you got. We're so different, but yet we're so like.
You're in a completely different feel You are the man
of your field. And you know, we got some other
guys that we run with that are the men in
their fields. And I was sitting in the room, I
was like, man, I wish Jay was here, you know,
(04:47):
But at the same time, I'm like, I'm glad he's
not here because he's killing it. Where he is. He
in New York, he in Washington, he in Baltimore, he's
in the Bahamas, he's in DC. I mean constantly. But
I was just blessed to know that I have a boy,
I have a homie that's doing this thing in a
completely different field. Be for a second almost fell like, dang, man,
(05:08):
I need a homie. But then I thought about, man,
I got a dog. Yeah, I got it. Though he
ain't no preaching, but the reality of it is, he
is a preacher. If you've been to any of his sessions,
you're gonna get prophesied too. Before it's over. He gonna
lay hands on You're gonna put that good brother hand
on you before it's over. But I thank God for
our friendship. It is unique and it's powerful, and I
(05:31):
thank God for it. Man. I wanted to bring it
up because you were talking about friendship and I just
thank God for a friendship. God, I thank God for it.
You can kind of go into that j T because
you weren't open to friendship zero and so zero I
wasn't open to it. Had as an older guy, friendship
(05:53):
went south that I had for twenty plus years. So
I just wasn't open to being hurt again and not
so much being hurt again starting all over again, the
work that it takes to build something like that. I
just wasn't open for that. But I knew months later
(06:14):
that God sent you because you never left, like you
never walked away. You kept saying, mar I, gon'll be here.
Bro I disappeared on you like three or four times.
I was like, you know, but the dude never left,
So I knew it was a God assignment. And so, brothers,
if you are struggling with friendship, and not just brothers, women,
(06:35):
if you're struggling with friendship and you're older, give it
a shot. It's gonna feel uncomfortable. It's not gonna feel normal.
You're gonna feel like you're betraying your own borders, your
own rules of engagement. But it's okay because I remember
when we were on a session, and in that session,
(06:57):
you asked the audience, how does it feel if you're
choosing to be a certain way? How does it feel
to be that way? Being lonely don't feel good. Being
by yourself don't feel good. And you may think that
you're protecting yourself, You're not protecting yourself. You're alone, and
you're isolated, and you're only as good as your own
arms and your own two hands and your own two eyes.
(07:20):
But where you can get a good brother, a good
sister in your life that actually cares, And let me
tell you something is going to take you dropping your
arms to find out if somebody cares about you. You
can't have the knife and the shield in your hand
and think somebody's going to care about you, because you
owe that person is trying to be a friend to you.
(07:41):
You owe them the respect and the honor to let
them show you. And if you keep your defenses up
the entire time, you're going to eventually run away who
God sent to protect you and sent there to not
just protect you, to befriend you, to relate to you.
And man, that's what you've been. You've been that down
through the year, and I mean through the years, and
(08:03):
I wouldn't change it for nothing. I thank God for you, man,
and I pray that I could be to you what
you've been to me. And you have, bro you've been.
You've been an example as a father, as a husband,
as a man, as an oracle. You've just been a
great example. But what I respect about you Jay, You're
so real. Me and Kirk was talking about this and
(08:26):
we were talking about, you know, just real brothers. And
I told Kirk, I said, man, what I love about
j T. As annoying it as he is and as
powerful as he's a real brother, He's a brother's brother.
And that's what I have really embraced and love that
you've been able because you've been the big brother that
I needed. You've been the big brother that has provided perspective,
(08:50):
you know, expanded even my thinking, expanding even my understanding
and things. I think some of my greatest memory is
walking on a treadmill and you preaching a message. This
is how we used to walm up before we work out.
He will he will walk through his sermon and just
to you know, just the way your brain works and
(09:14):
just the way God allows you to dissect that word
and to really break it down, and I would just
be in awe. And also we're able to talk about
life everything, but talking about life piece is kind of
help me process the book. That's actually in the book.
When we start talking about the fight to find Yourself,
(09:36):
I talk about relationships, and I talk about our relationship
having someone in your life that can actually help course
correct you, that can actually be honest with you, that
you can actually be safe with, help you process, help you,
(09:57):
help you strip stinking thinking, but also have the potency
of thought and the potency of mind, the nimbleness of
the mind to be able to pour back into you.
Because I've always been the poorer. And so it's not
like that in our relationship that I can call you
and you're going to pour. I can call you, I'm
going to pour. It's not a one sided relationship. And
(10:20):
in the fight to find myself, our relationship is one
of the chapters making sure that you have someone in
your life that you can actually bounce life off of,
because life is crazy, man, and you've got to have
somebody in your life that can help you see right,
especially when you used to seeing wrong. Man, somebody in
(10:41):
your life to help you to see right when you
are accustomed to see to see and wrong. Man, I
y'all got to see the brother is already cooking. Man.
When you think about this book and think about the
last five years of your life, what was that? And
(11:03):
I didn't know that? That is so layered and so convoluted,
But what comes to your mind just to think about
what did you have to give up to find yourself.
Let me sum it up like this. I was a
performer and when I and I don't want you to
(11:25):
take the word performer and try to use pretender, it's
not the same thing. My performance defined me. How well
I did on stage, how well I did in any boardroom,
how well I did and any type of previous books
in school. The performance is what defined me. And so
(11:52):
when COVID hit, everybody's performance stopped and you had to
redefine or equip yourself to make sure that you could
stay out there. COVID was tough for me. COVID was
tough for a lot of people, and so I couldn't
perform like I normally perform. And when I couldn't perform,
(12:15):
I felt like I was losing my mind. And it
was at that moment that I realized, Hey, I don't
know myself outside of performing. And so since I didn't
know myself outside of performing, man, I started losing it.
I started eating crazy. All of my relationships went to shambles.
How I processed thought went to shambles. I lost my
(12:39):
son maybe a year later, and I lost my father.
So this avalanche of emotions that I had never acquainted
myself with. Those things were all foreign to me. So
now I don't know myself I got. I have an
avalanche of emotions that I don't even know how to
even describe. I can't paint. The only emotion that I
(13:02):
was good with and I didn't handle it well, So
that's an oxymoron. I just knew it better than others
was anger. The rest nothing had no words to understand me.
But at the same time, when I moved right after COVID,
I'm starting to rise back in my performance again because
(13:23):
I made this big shift. So my performance goes back up,
but the knowledge of self, it never rises. It takes
a back seat. So all of these years, I'm winning
on stage, but I'm dying as a man. I'm dying
as a son, dying as a father, dying as a friend.
(13:43):
Everything about me was going in the opposite direction while
the stage was taken off. Some people will call it fake.
It was me not knowing myself, and it was me
not being able to process. How do you win and
lose at the same time? And who can you tell
that to without them judging you? Who can you tell
(14:04):
I'm losing? But you're teaching in front of thousands of people.
You're going across the country. I got other books. I'm
selling books, I'm selling product, I'm going around the world.
But I'm losing as a man. I lost as a father,
I lost as a son, lost as a spouse, lost
as a friend, but winning on stage. And on Wednesday night,
(14:30):
Bishop Jakes talked about sortship and in the middle of
the conversation, we was all trying to be real proper,
he said, stop that, and man, I just blurted out
to now. I said, Man, I don't know who I
am at the age of forty I think it was
forty four. And I said, remember that night Washington, I said,
I don't know who I am. Tears came down my eyes, man,
and I was just like, I'm tired of this feeling.
(14:52):
I'm tired of the performance, and I'm tired of not
being able to just be me. Well, who is me?
Is it my father that I don't know me? Is
it my daddy's father. I'm too old to say that.
So I had to do the hard work of getting
to know me, and that was hard and it was brutal.
(15:13):
Where did you start therapy? I went to therapy. I
went to therapy. I would say therapy is the second level.
I'm not even gonna say therapy. It actually started when
you invited me to be a part of your tour.
Because when you invited me to be a part of
your tour, if you remember, I didn't even talk to
y'all on the trip. I was still on the back
(15:33):
row of the bus and just I needed to know
the script. Hey, what am I supposed to do? How
am I supposed to do it? And I stayed away
from them. I would laugh at certain jokes, but I
stayed away from y'all. But I was still thankful that
you allowed me to come. But it was difficult for
me to process, and as we went further, I got looser.
(15:54):
But all of that became therapeutic that allowed me to
get closer to you individually and then which made me
embrace therapily collectively holistically. Isn't bad. But it was a
lot of hard work, man, It was a lot of
hard work. And I'm glad I did it. I'm glad
I did. I remember you telling me that this should
wanted you to go. He wanted me to go. He
(16:15):
told me that he said, you let us see the
big old man, he said, but we need to see
the boy. Wow, we need to see the boy, he said.
The big old man ain't he ain't touching nobody. The
big old man on stage ain't touching nobody. The little
boys is gonna touch people if you get them to speak.
But you got to let that little boy out, he said.
(16:37):
Let me tell you something. And that's scary. And I
went to counseling and in therapy, it's in this book.
In therapy, the woman says to me, Joel, where's Joel at?
And I'm like about my daughter. She says, no, you
tell me. Close your eyes and tell me where where
(16:57):
Joel is? And I was like, I'm right here. She says, no,
I want you to go back in your mind and
your childhood and tell me whereas Joel and I saw
him man trembling in a tree. And I tell the
story and the book. I'm not gonna tell you because
that's some crazy stuff happened to me that I had suppressed,
(17:18):
that I didn't even know. I didn't remember because I
had dunked so much stuff on top of it that
I didn't want to remember it. And that's a part
of the hard work of healing, because healing is a
dirty business man. And I know it sounds good at
church when you can get the supernatural miracle, praise God
for it, you know, but all of us don't get
(17:40):
it that way. Some of us got to go dig
for it. And I had to dig past a whole
lot of stuff, and I uncovered some stuff that I
didn't want to see, but I needed to see it
so that I could find myself. Oh, you're making me
get nervous that we just gonna let that breathe Listen,
(18:07):
we probably gonna have a couple of card terror moments
in this episode. Already know I won't let that just
settle or just rest because you just that That's another book.
Healing is a dirty business. When you begin to look
at the things that you didn't want to see, what
(18:28):
was the first thing that you acknowledge about what you
didn't want to look at? What was the first thing
that stood out to you. I realized that that was
one of the first things that created my stands on
my persona toxic masculinity, that I had become something to
(18:51):
protect myself from what I saw. But I didn't know
that till I went and did the dirty business to
dig in to look and see it. I said, well,
maybe I'm like this because of that. And if that
had never happened to me. Now that's a big statement,
but when I looked at it, I realized that my
(19:11):
whole narrative, my anger, my stance, my disposition, my tone,
everything came from that. And if that had never happened,
I wonder what kind of person that would be. And
broke I had to. I had to. I cried. I cried,
I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried
because for years I let myself suffer in silence, not
(19:35):
understanding that if I had got help a long time ago,
maybe I could have fixed all the parts of me
that broke other people because I was broken and didn't
know it. Because I broke a lot of people, I
heard a lot of people. I heard a lot of
people unknowingly because I heard people hurt people and I
didn't even know I was hurt. So there's a lot
(20:00):
that I saw that I didn't want to see. But
I'm grateful that I did the work. I can tell
you that I am grateful that I did the work.
And it took a lot of time. Bro. Yeah, and
I'm just sitting here, man, this is so therapeutic because
I notice it's gonna bless somebody to go grab this
(20:21):
book because to see yourself. It's gonna cost you a fight.
It's gonna come with a fight. Rather, it's going to
come with a fight. And not only is it gonna
come with a fight, you gotta have the You gotta
have the fire to fight. If you don't have the
fire to fight, you won't fight. You'll let what you're
dealing with burn you up, it'll cook you. And so
(20:43):
that's the beauty of having a great relationship. That's the
beauty of having the tools that are necessary to fight.
And that's the beauty of actually, and I talk about
this at the top of the chapter chapter one, realizing
that you are the beloved of God. If you can
realize and I'm not talking church jargon, I'm just talking
about really reading scripture and understanding that you are the
(21:07):
be loved of God, the faster you can recognize that
that it doesn't matter the laundry list of wrong that
you've done and all of the facades a mask that
you've put on to pretend to be somebody else. If
you can recognize man, Yo, he loves me and I'm
jacked up. He loves me and I'm messed up. He
loves me and I don't even know what to do.
(21:29):
He loves me. I don't even know who I am.
If you can get that, then you have the fire
to fight. But it's hard to fight without fire. It's
hard to fight without the fuel to give you what
you need to come out of something that's had you
buried for years. And that's where I've been. Broo, somebody
(21:53):
that is like watching him, says doctor Joe. How do
I find that fire? Well, I can tell you this
right now. Everybody has the fire already in there. The
fire is already in you. You don't know it because
you've allowed stuff, challenges, circumstances, situations to snuff it out,
(22:16):
to blow stuff over it. But it's kindling underneath there.
Because you were built to fight. You were wired to
fight for yourself. But there's so much stuff that we
have that we've allowed to submerge. We've submerged ourselves underneath it.
So the first thing for me, because I'm gonna talk
to a Christian lens, is knowing that God is for you. Okay,
(22:38):
if you can recognize that he's for you, that's one
of the greatest assets, one of your greatest weapons. If
you can get to therapy. Therapy is going to give
you the tangible tools to help you understand what you
don't have words for, all right. If you can find community,
community is going to help you process out what the
therapist is trying to get you to do for yourself.
(23:01):
All right, Those three alone will help you persevere through
the moments where you don't have the phraseology, you don't
have the fire quote unquote to make it happen your circle.
The information, the wisdom that comes from it is going
to help you process through that. And as you go
through that, you're gonna have to make sure that you
(23:23):
stay committed to it, because you're gonna have moments where
you wake up when you're ready to go, and then
there's gonna be moments where you want to give into it.
I can't tell you how many times I want to say,
you know, I forget it. This hurts too bad to
fight something that that I'm dealing with that I don't
want to deal with it, forget it. I want it. Man.
(23:46):
There's many times where I was like that and you
called me, and he was like j T and I'm
like what. He was like, man, get up, get up,
and I'm like, Bro, I don't want to get up.
You're like, hey, bro, you're gonna get up. And then
if I didn't get up, this joker would call me
grown men look at him he called me, and be like, Father,
(24:06):
in the name of Jesus, touch my brother, Touch my
brother right now, in the name of Jesus. I don't
know what he's going through right now, but Father, bless
his mind, bless his soul, give him to get up,
touch his family, help him understand who he is. We
need you right now at this moment. And so Father,
I sacrifice my time to stay here and entercede for him.
(24:27):
That the devil is a liar. He can't have my brother.
The way I'm talking to you right now. That's how
the prayer would sound another man's voice praying about another man.
To find the fire to try, you cannot do it
by yourself. It's impossible to do. You have to have
somebody to do it. And all of this fighting to
(24:50):
find yourself is simply trying to align your purpose destiny,
to align the fire to and who you are your perspectives,
all with the right actions and choices so that you
are okay with being who you are, the good and
(25:12):
the bad. All things work together, well, you can get there.
That's what you know. You're there. Oh yeah I did that.
Yeah I messed up. Yeah that was terrible. Yeah, but
I'm so glad I did All of that bad stuff
has allowed me to touch so many men around the
(25:32):
world and say, you know, I'm struggling with the same thing,
me too. It's crazy is so many men need their
me too moments? Me too? Brother, me too? Me too?
I think as you just so eloquently put all of
that man and soundwich that together. Man, I we can't
(25:55):
echo enough how important community is. I think so many
brothers try to do it alone. And what it does
is it actually keeps you in isolation longer than you
anticipated because you're not wanting to be alone. But then
there's this guilt, there's a shame, there's this weight of
(26:16):
like what happens when I say to a brother, me too,
or I'm struggling with this, and what I'm hearing you
say is that if you don't have that you the
fire won't be ignited, won't You're not gonna burn strong
enough to fight. You'll have a little You'll have a
little kindle that when you feel like you got the
strength to beat something, you will fight it. But there
(26:39):
are gonna be moments when something comes upon you that's
burning stronger than the fire that you have. And you're
gonna do two things I'll talk about in the book.
You're gonna break down, are you gonna break through? And
you have to make the decision either you're gonna break
down or you're gonna break through. And I have broke
down so many times. I got tired of breaking down
in the same spot over and over and over again. Breakdown,
(27:02):
go good, break down, go good. Break down. So when
I got the tools that were necessary and the circle
that benefited me every place I broke down, I broke
through every single spot. So now I have a whole
other perspective of what it means to break through something.
And there's nothing that you're going through that you broke
(27:23):
down that you can't break through. You can break through.
When as you were talking about breaking down, break through
one of my I mean, there's a lot of messages,
messages that you preach that I've had the opportunity to
sit on. But the one that just always stands out
to me. And this happened there was at the party,
siuse yeah, my god today trying to feel your way
(27:50):
through life blindly. You talked about the blind man who
was blind, and you talked about coming out of a
dark after ben and his mother's womb in nine months
and coming out and still in the dark. What would
you say to the man that feels like he's in
a dark space right now, that he's in a dark
(28:12):
moment and we're hoping that it doesn't create a dark outcome.
Something very very simple to you. Everything that you need
to work in the light will work in the dark.
And you don't think about it because you see the darkness.
(28:35):
But if you take a look at the baby that's
in the womb, got hands, got as we were made
to see in the dark. We were made, we were
born in water for nine months, we were in a fat,
floating feeling our way through, kicking our way through. Everything works.
(28:57):
You can't let the dark stop you from using what
I gave you. You work in the dark. You can
move through the dark. You can elevate in the dark,
you can process in the dark. You can get a
raise in the dark. You can find a wife in
the dark. You can do everything in the dark, and
when the day hits you can be like, is this
(29:17):
what the day is? Because I've been doing this in
the dark all my life. That's what I have learned
that the dark is not my enemy. Dark is just
the absence of light, and that's all it is. That
when light hits you, and the only light you need
is the light of the Word of God and period.
(29:39):
So don't let the darkness drive you insane. Just burn
in the night. J T them priests about three or folks,
three or four different series over there. The day Man,
the fight to find yourself? How did that title come about?
Because I couldn't find myself and was embarrassing. It was
(30:02):
very embarrassing for me to say I was fighting to
find myself. But when hundreds of men started writing in
said man, I'm forty five, I don't know myself. I'm fifty.
Thank you for saying that. So at that moment, it's
kind of like what you just said about the dark,
I said, Man, why am I hiding this? Let me
(30:24):
fight in the public, let me fight in the dark,
and let me fight myself through and that's what it is,
and I meant every word of it. Fight to find myself.
Had to fight through the fear, had to fight through
the trauma, had to fight through the winds, I had
to fight through the losses, every piece of me. I
(30:48):
had to fight, and I'm gonna call to you probably
the most difficult fight false identities and identity foreclosure. That's
probably the hardest fight because we put on the identity
that we need to put on to make it in
whatever sector that we're in. So I had to fight that.
(31:10):
I had to fight that to dismantle that I needed
to be this way to make it, that I need
to be this to get over there, when in reality
I'm all of that. But I don't have to deny
pieces of myself so that this person will accept me.
On that person, I don't need to be with them.
God has the circle for me. Because I spent a
tremendous amount of time trying to get in certain circles
(31:32):
because I thought that man, if I get in that
circle right there, it's gonna be this I'm gonna be,
I'm gonna make it. And none of them circles accepted me.
I was trying my best to be seen by certain circles.
They ain't care nothing about me. They didn't want me
in those circles. I'll drive hours, fly, spend money, go
to the green room, still didn't get in the circle.
You shook the hands, you pay it. We paid the
(31:54):
fee to get in, sit in the front row, but
you didn't get in. I wasn't supposed to be in,
got it a different path, had a different path of me.
That was the hardest fight, trying to fight off what
I thought was success or what I thought was the identity,
the personification of what he wanted from me. And so
(32:16):
that false narrative, that false identity, and then what I
had foreclosed on myself, my own identity that I had
foreclosed on. So everything that I've come into was what
I thought. I didn't what I was ashamed of. I
didn't want that part of me to come out. I
thought it was stupid to be smart. When I was
(32:39):
in school, I was smart, but I acted stupid because
all of the good athletes was you know, I'm not
saying everybody is stupid, That's not what I'm saying, all right,
But the classroom that I was in, nobody was studying.
So I kind of stuck with that. You know, I
was just a different type of kid. But I foreclosed
on all of that and picked up a whole nother
(32:59):
style of living, a whole nother mode of behavior. And
at the end of the day, I have gone back
to the thing that I foreclosed on. I was a
little kid that would that we had a Kirby vacuum
that probably weigh a hundred pounds. I don't know if
you know about them. I remember them, really heavy vacuums.
Put the big face on. Yeah, we would. We usually
(33:19):
have one of the things that I was a little
kid man and I would I would be a traveling
evangelist in the house preaching. You know, the Christenchian call
was one hundred feet long. So I go through the
whole house running revival, praiase God. And I foreclosed on
all of that because I thought that was corny, thought
it was cornball, and I thought it was you know,
(33:42):
that's not who I am. And then here I am,
all these years later, and what people know me for
is preaching the Gospel. That's what they know me for,
preaching nothing else, preaching the Gospel. But I foreclosed on
all of that because I wanted to sell drugs. I
wanted to be a hero. I wanted to be a
ladies man. I wanted to be all of those things
(34:04):
and foreclosed on I could have been whatever God wanted
me to be when I was twenty, but I didn't
want to be what God wanted me to be. I
wanted to be what I wanted to be, you know,
and I think you know when we think about not
being what God wants us to be, and I as
we both were athletes. Being gifted as an athlete is
(34:26):
one thing, but being gifted spiritually and being gifted in
other ways that it's not celebrated because nobody's praising you
for singing and preaching. You know, when you when you
in your teens and your twenties trying to play ball,
it's like how fast can you run? How high you
can jump? All of those different things. And so I
(34:48):
share those similar sentiments because you know, I can remember
with my sisters, we stay in the house playing church
and I'm playing drums. How boss drums? You preach a
little bit and sing and just to think that God
has brought us back to who we were born to be,
and you can't help but to think about what he
said of Jeremiah. It is so I formed thee come on,
(35:11):
I knew you. Come on, bro, I knew you. And
getting us back to the place because not only is
that is that where we thrive, but it's also where
we get to live, like I mean and truly live,
not just existing, but to really live. And it brings
this question to me in this season in your life,
(35:33):
do you feel like you're really living now? That's a
great question. I think I am on the verge of
living my best life. I don't think I'm there yet,
but I think I'm closer than I've ever been before now.
And the reason why I say that because I've had
some different fights that I wasn't anticipating. But there are
(35:54):
fights that I found out that as you navigate us life,
you can't fight them. You gotta let God fight your battle.
And those battles morphew into who you are going to be.
And I don't think you're going to get there without them,
(36:16):
those battles that are not yours, but they are the lords.
But you got to go through them. But they're not yours,
but they're the Lord. Those battles help morph you into
who you need to be so that you can live
the life that God intended for you. Because I think
I'm at the verge. I think I'm at the door.
I'm living my best life. You know, you at the precipiceone. Yeah,
(36:36):
like you're right there, because just to see the levels
that you have graduated from, you know, from preaching in
the empty church during COVID and now all over the world.
You know, I remember when we were talking when this
(36:56):
is I think when one of his videos that they
added doctor dre Beat when it went viral. I called him.
I said, Nigga, you going viral? He said, Man, Dog,
that's crazy. I said, Dog, I said, I said, Jat,
you'd have made it. Oh, and that thing has been
reversed rehearse, replayed millions. Man, what was that like? Because
(37:18):
listen y'all to note JT. Bear he ain't with all
this just this, this this celebrity, this this popularity. He's
a country boy. Like like if we talk about this
all the time, when you really called and really God
has chosen you, but we're not running to get on stage.
(37:38):
In fact, you're trying to get away from it. How
to hit away from the stage because of what comes
with it. It's the stage with them lights will burn
you up. You know, everything you do, somebody don't like it. Yeah,
and so you always getting cooked, you know. So I
sometimes I don't want to be cooked. I just want
to just sit out in the audience and just chill,
you know what I mean. Forget that stage. But I
(38:01):
will tell you this, because I know we're getting ready
to wrap up. I want to say this to somebody
that's out there. When you fight to find yourself, there's
one thing that you're going to have to come to
grips with, and this is mess me up. You're going
to have to come to grips with the truth of
who you are. You got to come to grips with
(38:23):
the truth of what you're not, and then you're going
to have to deal with the fractures of the truth.
What I learned is that there's so many types of fractures.
When we play ball, stress fractures, spiral fractures. No matter
what kind of fracture it is, it's a fracture. And
(38:43):
there are things you can still do with fractures until
there's a certain impact that turns that fracture into a break.
And so you can only navigate life fractured so long,
and we don't know yourself. You're fractured when you don't
understand why you do certain things. You're fractured, and all
(39:07):
it takes is just the perfect blow. It could be
a child, it could be the loss of a career,
it could be a divorce, it could be you just
flipping out for a second, and that one blow could
shatter everything. Man, And you don't want to wait until
(39:29):
things shatter to fight, because now you're fighting handicaped. So
if you know you're fractured, and you know your fractured
because you can feel it. You can feel the pains
in the marriage, and you can feel the pains with your children,
you feel the pains on the career. If I were you,
I would get the fractured reset then while you're feeling
the pain, so you don't have to deal with the
(39:50):
severity of the blow when you're not taking care of
yourself when you know you're fractured, So deal with the truth,
deal with what's going on with you so that you
can heal correctly, because if you don't set that bone right,
you're gonna heal in a way that will hurt you
for the rest of your life. Then I don't know
if that's healing. No, no, not at all. And for
(40:17):
those that are watching, you know when I listen to
j T break all of that down. Many of you
are unable to fight because of the trauma, and some
of you may be doc what is trauma. Trauma is
a psychological or physical experience that has taken place in
(40:39):
your life that has negatively impacted you for the rest
of your life. And when he started off by saying,
to know that you are God's beloved, to add from
a clinical lens, you got to know that you can
rewrite the story and God. Here's the thing that God does,
(41:02):
just like Jesus told the man at the pool of
Salam Shalem, is will that be made whole? Come on, man,
you have to ask yourself, do you want to behold?
Do you want to fix the fraction? Wow? Wow? Wow,
you blessed you read this? You do you want to
fix a fraction? And here's the other part of that.
(41:24):
Once they have reset the fraction, you have to participate
in the doctor's order. Last chapter of the book. Wow,
I didn't even notice last chapter of the book. Writing
a new story the last chapter of the book. You
can write a new story. But you have to participate
(41:46):
in the healing process, right. And that's what he just said,
is that you can't keep working handicap. You can't keep working,
Hanney cal If you don't write a new story, you're
gonna keep telling the same story ten years from now,
fifteen years from now, twenty years now, thirty years from now,
(42:07):
and you're gonna be the same guy telling that same story.
And I refuse to be the same man telling the
same story. Someone ran a new story. And that's the
life I'm living now, the story that I want to live,
because he who has the pen can control the narrative. Woo, listen,
(42:32):
I'm gonna let you in here, y'all. Go get this book, man,
go get this book. As I ask every guest about healing,
and we were able to traverss country for three years,
thirty three cited, thirty three cities, reached eighteen thousand men.
(42:56):
And though we talked about healing collectively to men. And
this is a question that I would have loved to
ask all of us when we were on stage, or
I want to ask you, what is healing for you? Wow,
that's a powerful question. Healing from me is a daily process.
(43:19):
It is one step at a time, it is gradual,
and it's me embracing that I may feel what I
felt yesterday, but that doesn't mean that I'm not okay.
It's going to be okay even though I still feel
something that hurt me, and that I can take one
(43:40):
step at a time and ease my way out of
it and don't allow it to pull me back. And
I'm going to be as only as strong as my community.
So for me, it's important that everybody that I'm connected
to is not broken in the same area I'm broken in,
build a trauma bond with somebody and just stay in
(44:03):
the same cycle. So for me, one day at a time,
gradually not allowing my feelings to rule, but yet acknowledging
my feelings truthfully talking to myself and talking to therapy,
to a therapist and making sure that I'm talking to
a circle they can help pull me forward one day
(44:23):
at a time. Need I say more? Need I not
say more? Nothing? This needs to be said. Everything has
been said. Brother. I just want to say to you publicly,
man that I am proud of you, man, proud of
the man that you become, proud of the man that
you were yet becoming, brother, and I couldn't be more
proud of you for this book. We're calling it because
(44:45):
this will be a New York Times bestseller. We need
seven thousands copy Soul of Telling, and we're gonna get
it because I gotta get my brother to this New
York Times bestseller list because I know that this book
is written from a place of lived experience. It's not
written from something you heard, You lived it. And I
(45:09):
just want to say, Man, my mind, my love for
you as a brother, man exceed even what I'm able
to understand, because I'm just in awe in what God
has done through you, and it's just encouraged me that
it's possible if you stay on course. And then I
(45:30):
had to learn that when we're off course, we're on course.
And I know there's been times where you probably felt like, man,
what am I doing? And I thank God that He
is reassured you that you was doing exactly what He
caused you to do. Brother, and so Man, blessing many
blessing brother, thank you for sharing space with my audience.
(45:52):
They love these conversations. I know they love you because
my DM is always blown up with everything he got
going on and so I want to say to the audience,
this book released November four, five days from today. This
book is going to drop the Fight to find Yourself.
Go to the bookstore, go to Amazon, everywhere books are sold,
(46:14):
and go grab this book from doctor Joel Tugman. And
I'm telling you it's gonna bless your life because there's
so many people that are trying to find themselves and
they don't know where to start. They know that they're
in a fight, but they don't have the fire to fight.
And so I'm hoping that you go out and grab
this book to find yourself because it's gonna cost you.
(46:36):
It's gonna as as my old man just says, may
cost you a little, may cost you a life, but
it's gonna cost you. And the Fight to find Yourself
is the book that you need to find yourself. So brother,
thank you man, Love you man, Make you man for
doing this. Man again. Follow doctor Joel Tugman on Instagram, Twitter,
(47:00):
if anybody even use x anymore to it, but he's
on TikTok everywhere. Listen, man, go blow up his page,
Go blow up this book, because we definitely want to
make sure the world get this book. Man, because the
time that we're living in right now, I think we
need this because a lot of people don't know themselves
and they crash it out and we're wanting to challenge
(47:22):
and challenge people to find themselves. Man, Thank you, Doc,
I appreciate you, love you, love you man any last words, brother,
good Again, go out and grab this book, Doctor Joel Tuckman.
And also forward by our mentor and as we call him,
(47:42):
the greatest all time Bishop td Jakes. Listen man, and
what he wrote is killer too. Yeah. Oh, I know
you been the greatest all rate of all time man,
and we're so grateful to share space with him would
be remiss man, because Bishop poising to us man like
no other, and it's just a blessing to be able
to walk alongside him and for him to write this forward. Man,
(48:07):
I'm just blessed man that we're behind our brother, doctor Joel.
So again, go grab this book to fight to find
yourself moving from uncertainty to unstoppable again. Subscribe just here,
doctor j join the healing community. You can listen audibly
(48:28):
on Spotify, The Black Effect and also iHeart Podcasts or
wherever you listen to your podcast. And until next time,
remember healing is a journey and wholeness is the destination.
God bless Just here with Doctor J, a production of
the Black Effect podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(48:51):
to your favorite shows. And you can follow me at
King J. Barnett on Instagram and x and follow us
on YouTube. Just Heal Doctor J.
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