March 11, 2024 • 29 mins
This episode of MEternal is co-hosted by March of Dimes CEO Dr. Elizabeth Cherot and features Maternal Health Advocate, Filmmaker, and March of Dimes Board Member Tonya Lewis Lee. As a creator, Tonya has used storytelling as an innovative tool to bring the conversation around black maternal health to the mainstream. Tonya continues to create social impact through her synergistic service and work with March of Dimes, by bridging the between access and resources to create more equitable health solutions in communities of color.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
And when you know more and youknow better, you do better, right,
which is why we're here today.So I'm really really excited. We
are going into year or two ofour partnership and I'm here with my co
host today, doctor Elizabeth Chirou withMarch of Dimes. Thanks for having me,
Kenya, so excited to be here. Yeah, I'm so excited for
this partnership. But I've enjoyed thefew podcasts we've done and how you've taken
(00:23):
this. Yeah, and we haveone of our honorary guests, right,
you've been on the podcast a fewtimes I have. Yeah, happy to
be here, excited to have youback. So good to be with you
and Liz today. So nice.Yeah, so we have a lot to
talk about, right, you allboth have been working together. How long
have you been on the board ofdirectors? Who have March of Dimes been
on the board of March of Dimes. I think now I started in twenty
(00:46):
nineteen, So what does that makeit? Five years? Wow? Wow?
Goes fast. It does go gofast, but it's amazing. I
mean, I'm really excited to beon the board of March of Dimes and
support all the work that the organizationis doing. And I'm happy that Liz
is in the position that she's inour CEO and trying to support the strategy
(01:07):
that she's coming up with. Yes, so let's talk a little bit about
some of those strategies going into twentytwenty four and what's on the plate for
you all. Well, we've reallybeen looking at how we can help moms
and babies where they are. Weknow that we have some of the worst
outcomes of you know, industrial nations, of any nation really, and you
start looking at really inequities. Whenyou look at health inequities, it's moms
(01:30):
and babies that are affected. Andlet's go there, Black moms and babies.
And so we've got to solve forthis, and we have to solve
antony and I have had this conversationSolving for black women and black babies is
going to solve for everyone. Andso we've really been looking at the strategy
of where we can talk about access, where we can talk about cardiovascular risk,
(01:51):
and where we can really talk aboutinfant death at pre term birth,
and let's really narrow that across thespectrum of pregnancy. So we know that
an antipartum intrapartum and postpartum, andthen wrap around that full year that we've
been right, that's where neonatal intensivecarrying it and our infant death is measured
at a year, and we wantto impact all of that and specifically moms
(02:15):
and babies. We know that that'swhere we're going to start to target across
those three things. Sure, andTanya, how is your work and what
you're doing kind of folded into themission for a March of Dimes. Well,
you know, I've just been advocatingaround infant and women's health now for
fifteen almost twenty years now, andso joining the board of March of Dimes,
(02:39):
and you know my work as afilmmaker, I've made films about infant
mortality. I've made films about theUS maternal mortality crisis. For me,
it's really about raising awareness about theissues then talking about what the solutions are.
And so being a part of Marchof Dimes is a way for me
to continue that work, to seewhat the solutions are that the March of
(03:02):
Dimes is involved in, to helpamplify the messaging and and just keep the
drum beat going. It's we're allin alignment I mean, it's it's it's
great because Listen and I were talkingearlier about both of our paths to March
of Dimes. You know, we'vehad very different life lived experiences in lives.
(03:23):
She's a doctor, I'm a lawyerby trade, and yet we've both
come to this place to try toprove improve the outcomes for women, for
babies, and for families in thiscountry. And so that's why, that's
why I'm there. That's great,amazing, She's amazing. I know,
well you both are well. Listen, I say that I pinched myself.
I think about where I was fiveyears ago you were talking about. I
(03:45):
was like I was delivering babies,right, I was serving moms and and
you know, handing the babies offright because I'm not a pediatrician. But
I think about where I've gotten toand sort of where right we've now crossed
paths, and I'm inspired. Imean, Aftershock is an incredible film.
You haven't seen it, go seeit on Hulu. I'm gonna plug it,
(04:06):
thank but honestly it is so itis something that it does. It
takes your breath away to watch andsee, and then it also hopefully galvanizes
you to this movement and that amplification, honestly is it's award winning. It's
an incredible and I can't praise Tanyaenough for what she's helped us do within
(04:28):
the March of Dimes and really helpedamplifying us as well. But her journey
is incredible, you know, Iappreciate that and I and I think that
that the overall the point is thatwe all, all of us have a
role to play and improving the outcomes. It's about figuring out where you plug
in. And so for me,it's as a filmmaker, it's as an
advocate, it's at as a boardmember, it's as a friend, it's
(04:50):
as a mom, all of it, yeah, all the things. Yeah.
Yeah, So speaking of movement,you all are really mobile. Now
I want to talk about the Marchof Dimes Mom Baby Mobile Health Center that's
officially launched, right, Can youtell us a little bit more about what's
happening with that. Yeah. Soit's a partnership with New York Presbyterian.
So you have to remember, eventhough I'm a provider, we at the
(05:12):
March of Diamond are not provider.We actually are convenor. So we partner
with New York Presbyterian and we're actuallyseeing patients starting in February. I like
to think of mobile units as popup clinics, right, you think of
pop up and it's a really neatway to get back into the community.
Right. You don't have to cometo the provider. We're coming to you
(05:33):
and we're doing everything from providing inanatalvisits, postpartum visits, mental health screening.
We're also handing out food. We'rehanding out I think it's been fifteen
thousand tons of food. Wow,just in the short term. Tons of
diapers, I think it's I couldlook up the number. But it's amazing
what we're doing boots on in thecommunities to do this work because we know
(05:56):
that it's not just about a doctoror midwife visit. It's really about being
in the community and being where momsare and helping them and what they need.
Yeah, and that full cycle ofcare right exactly. That comes down
to accessibility, which we've talked alot of times about. It's so meaningful.
I mean, I think sometimes peopleforget it's hard for people to get
(06:16):
somewhere to leave a community. Sometimesthey don't have transportation, Sometimes they have,
they have family members, they haveto look after, they have reasons
why they can't leave their community.So for March of Dimes to have these
multi these mobile units that are inthe community accessible to people, providing the
kind of preventative care that they needas well as actually providing groceries is truly
(06:43):
powerful and I think it can it'sreally impactful in the communities. Yeah,
we've been doing it in Ohio,so I should mention we've been in Appalachia,
We've been in the Inner City inWashingt d C. We're actually launching
in Houston and Arizona, so wow, right, we are. Strategy is
really not to own a fleet ofmobile units, but really to be a
convenior that we can then hand thatback over into the community so that it
(07:08):
continues to run for years at atime that we've been doing this, I
kind of can't believe that only twopercent of all mobile units are in maternal
care. Wow right. We domamigrams, we do blood draws, but
we're not doing what we fundamentally shouldbe doing. And so we feel like
a pioneer in the space. Youare and excited that we're able to do
(07:29):
it. And I think it's greattoo, especially when the March of Dimes
does their annual Maternal Health Desert report. You know, we can't answer every
community that has a maternal health desert, but what you're seeing is the March
of Dimes trying to respond and answerto that, which is fantastic. Yeah,
and it's a great supplementation to whatcan be done in those maternal health
(07:53):
deserts. We might not necessarily beable to build a hospital or build a
health care center, right, butyou can create access to this mobile health
unit, which I think is incredible. Yeah. A maternity care desert absolute
highlights the miles to drive. Soif we're able to get that care right
and able to we know that momsand babies who don't get any kind of
(08:13):
care, they're the worst outcomes.So we know preterm birth for black women
in the maturity care desert much worse. So we all that data. It
drives where we need to be.We need more of them. Yeah,
but it's one of the solutions.Absolutely, it's great. So I kind
of want to go back to yourrole on the board, right. You
know, you've been working with theorganization for five years. Has there any
(08:35):
been any like highlight or pivotal momentfor you that really has been like,
Wow, this is very meaningful tome, and this is why I'm here.
You know that. That's a reallygreat question. I mean, I
think the way March of Jime sortof approaches the issue of maternal health care,
maternal and infant health care, reallyit is fascinating to me. I
(08:58):
mean, they we advocate on thehill. You know, we have a
wonderful avocan and Stacy Brayboy there whoworks to try to get policies in place,
because we can only do this workif we are supported by the policies
out there in our communities. Right, so we've got that. You know,
(09:18):
there are all sorts of different kindsof initiatives that we have. You
know, I don't want to getahead of us on the aspirin low dose
and Liz will clarify exactly what I'msaying, but the protocol for low dose
aspirin when it comes to pre clamshawthese days, we've been taking low dose
aspirin to to prevent pre clamshaw thatwe're coming out with. I think that
(09:43):
for me though, honestly, whatI really get out of Marshal Dimes are
the people on the board, thepeople in the organization who are really doing
the work on the ground day in, day out, are just amazing.
And I feel in inspired by thework that's happening and the commitment that is
there to really improve the outcomes.I think people know March of Dimes.
(10:07):
Some people know March of Dimes fromFDR and solving polio. Some people know
March of Dimes as advocating for premihealth. I came on the board really
when we were talking about health equity, really making sure that March of Dimes
has moved into the space to improveoutcomes for all moms on all babies.
(10:28):
Understanding that we have a health equityproblem in this country, and as Liz
said earlier, if we solve itfor the most vulnerable, which are clearly
black women in black and brown womenin this country, we will solve it
for everyone. And so that's whatreally got me excited was this new iteration
of March of Dimes really focusing inthe health equity issue, which to me
(10:50):
is the thing that we all needto be focusing on right now in this
country because health is everything. Yeah, and if we can get that in
order it. It just power thisforward. Definitely, I love it.
Yeah, No, our advocacy workis huge. I don't think people realize
how much. When I testified onthe hill, it's like what I've got
to do, where I'll go dothis seat section in the hallway more comfortable
(11:11):
than sitting, But it is soimportant and I also think it is it's
frightening it first to do that work. We have an incredible woman who runs
our Office of Government Affairs, Stacybray Boy, and really we have done
some incredible work when it comes tothe Premiact, when it comes to supporting
(11:31):
moms in the workplace in that FairnessAct. We've also been really advocating for
reimbursement for midwives is the same asany other provider physician. Love that,
Yeah, And we're really doing alot of dual work. And we've been
doing a big grant with CBS andFoundation and our dul work in our markets
(11:52):
and really looking at that from areimbursement standpoint. So I love that you
brought up our advocacy because I don'tthink people think of that and they don't
know that that's where the change hasto happen. Absolutely, and we are
bipartisan, which is crazy, Right, We're able to do this in a
bipartisan way, and there's not manyorganizations that are able to do that,
so health equity should be bipartisan.But absolutely so. I I you highlighted
(12:18):
that in such a great way,I think, And yeah, I think
those that are stepping up this isa time for us really have to realize
that we have to find the solutionsthat close the health happening. We're trying
to use that lens with every programwe do so and I love that it's
becoming a main stream conversation, rightbecause it wasn't before, Right, I
(12:39):
don't. I don't even think threeyears ago it was as front and center
as it is now. Right.So, I think we've learned some things.
I think historically we sort of blamedpeople for their health issues, that
it's really their fault. They're notgoing to see the doctor, they're not
eating well, they're they're just livingwild and causing all of their own health
(13:03):
issues. And I think we havewoken up to realize that actually the system,
the systemic issue, is really theproblem. We were just talking earlier
about how black and brown people showup at their doctor's offices and they complain
of symptoms and they are not seenor heard. And that's across the board,
(13:24):
from pregnant women to all people.So I think now we know that
the health equity issue is not anissue of Black people just being negligent when
it comes to their self care.It's that when they actually go to seek
care, they're not getting the treatmentthat they really need and deserve. And
so that's something we can fix rightnow that we know. And so I
(13:48):
think the conversation of health equity isgrowing, and I think what we realize
is that, as I said earlierand I'll keep saying it, if you
solve the problem for the most vulneulnerable, you make it better for everybody else.
Right. Yeah, And we've gota lot of data that we're building
up behind it, which helps uskind of show us the markers and like
(14:09):
how we're pushing forward. Absolutely.Yeah. When to me, when I
amplify the data that black babies aretwo times more likely not to make their
first birthday compared to their white counterpart, I don't I get. I have
chills when I think about that.I think about all the children I've delivered,
right and right, right, andthen as a society, how do
(14:31):
we how do we change that andhow do we really get trust back into
the healthcare system. I think that'sa really big thing. It's access and
how do we get the bias outand that that you know, listen,
that's peeling all the onions, onionson the table right, all those layers
there. But but yes, weuse our data to really drive and amplify
(14:56):
and we are continuing to do that. We have another Maturing Care does a
report that'll come out this year,which again it's sort of you know what,
I don't expect it to be inthe right direction. We're going to
actually look to within metro areas sospecific. Really that's a teaser that I'm
really excited that we're going to beputting out there. Also, think our
visualization of our data. If youdon't want to go through the five page
(15:16):
report for every state, if youjust look at the map, you'll be
able to see it. Yeah,and be able to see that. And
i'd also say just to lean intoour report card you know that we put
out in November. The thing thatI find and I have this conversation all
the time looking at moms and babiesin our health outcomes is a window into
our healthcare system. Yes, andit's broken. And you know we're not
(15:39):
talking about you know that we don'thave you know, things like public health,
like we have sanitation, we havevaccines, we have these things in
this country. So when you reallystart thinking about some of the inequities and
other we have to look at ourinside our own country. And again,
you know, I encourage everybody togo to the Market Times website to go
(16:03):
look at the pre term Birth ReportCard as well as the Maturity Care Desert
because I do think visually you cansee it immediately. Sure, they're really
rich documents and really really great use. People put great use to them.
I'm really proud of them and proudof the team that puts that together.
Our Paranatal Data Center is fantastic.And you also have implicit bias training resources
(16:25):
that you put in place to helpwithin the provider networks. Yeah, we
actually have training for trainers. Sowe have a train the trainer model.
We have partnered with healthcare systems,hospitals, private groups to do implicit buas
training. And it's not a oneand done, which I repeat that over
and over again. I've done oneand done, and it's not helpful,
right, You need to continue tohave that follow up and the next iteration
(16:48):
of it because it's it's not somethingthat you just fixed with one training.
So we need the small groups andthe real conversations and the real buy in
to make the change. And we'vegot some quality improvement projects that we're working
in the same vein that I thinkare really exciting that we're coming down coming
out this year actually, and Ithink that's great that March of Dimes is
doing that, and I think it'simportant. But I also say that when
(17:12):
it comes to healthcare providers especially,we need to start that training in med
schools and really that you know,I think med schools need to be really
thinking about how they're raising up doctorsand the biases that show up in the
textbooks that they use and all ofthat. It's all hands on on deck
approach. But what marsh of doing, what March of Dimes is doing and
(17:34):
offering is very valuable. But weneed to go a little bit back far.
No, You're absolutely right, andwe do some with medical schools.
We have a few, not enough, you know, and I think it's
an interesting approach to really look atsome of the testing that we do with
the bias that we have, andthat's kind of the American collegere Ubujuan sort
(17:56):
of surface that a couple of yearsago. And so I love that it's
really getting deep into those conversations.But it's it feels like it's a little
behind. It takes time, itdoes. But so that's why we continue
to talk about it, right,That's why I continue to amplify it and
discuss it because it's it's why wecontinue our implicit bias training. It's good.
(18:18):
Yeah, it's crucial to how wemove forward. Yeah, it is
so from both of your perspectives.I mean, we have training in place,
we have resources in place, wehave policy that's in place. Like
I guess, what does the nextphase of the work look like? Oh,
I guess I have to lean inthere. So really excited that we
(18:38):
are really promoting a lot. Whenyou we really look at access to care,
we're looking at and that access tocare talks about maternal mental health as
well as just access. Right,So it's you know, if you think
about mental health, a lot oftimes it's about that access component. I
talk because I talk a lot aboutthe cardiovascular because we know that something like
(19:02):
aspirin, which is supported by theAmerican College of Obgun, which is supported
by our US Preventative Task Force Societyof MFM A low dose, so that's
a baby aspirin, started it twelveweeks and continue to take daily can prevent
pre clampsia. There's toolkits to reviewto decide does this patient need it?
But we are encouraging that is forproviders, but we are really encouraging patients
(19:26):
to come in to ask that question, should I be on an aspirin?
And we're excited because preclampsia we knowaffects black women more. We know that
it is one of the most preventable. It can happen before, during,
and after pregnancy and can have someof the worst outcomes. One in seven
pregnancy admissions is affected by a cardiovascarevent. Wow, so most of that
(19:52):
is pre clampsia. So this issomething that we when treated and when treated
early, and we know that that'ssomething like six doesn't get treated appropriately can
lead to death. So when Istart saying what are we doing? This
is when we're trying to talk aboutpreventable maternal and infant outcomes return birth.
This is all aligned around getting theword out about aspirin. So we're excited
(20:15):
to elevate that and there's a lotof work being done in preclamc right now.
There are biomarkers to test for whichare predictors for severe outcome. I
mean, I'm so excited about thestuff that's coming, but we want to
be on the forefront of getting themessage out for getting women to ask that
question. Should they be very Yeah? And I would say from my perspective,
(20:36):
I think for me, it's aboutreally turning this conversation around. I
appreciate the doctors who are really outthere trying to make sure that those who
have the higher risk are getting thecare they need. But eighty five percent
of birthing people are healthy and shouldn'thave any issues, And so I think
we need to be thinking about whatis birth and what is birth mean in
(21:00):
general. It is an amazing thingthat women and wombs bring forth life into
this world. I said, Ilove to say, and this has heard
me say it that we women aredivine goddesses who bring forth life and it's
a sacred act and for those ofus who choose to birth, it should
(21:22):
be it's like a rite of passagein life, and we should be able
to experience it from the moment thatwe know that we are pregnant. We
should be on a sacred journey tobringing this child here in the most natural
way possible, experiencing the whole thing. We should not be afraid of birth.
(21:42):
It should not be a fear.It should be an exciting opportunity that
you have when we're able to havethe kind of support around us that we
want and need. It gives usthe protection to be able to shut everything
out, drop into that space ofbirthing so that you can touch, be
(22:03):
in touch with your body and dowhat it needs to do to bring forth
this life. So for me,I need to figure out how my messaging,
how we turn this conversation around soit's not about fear. Yes,
if you have an issue, thenyes you need to go and do these
things. But for the eighty fivepercent of us who really should not have
any complications, we should just bereally excited and enjoy all of it and
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not fear pain, and not feardeath or near death, and just enjoy
the experience. Yeah, and behappy, right, Yeah, be happy.
I love the divine Goddess. Ineed to tell them both my children,
I'm a divine godess. You areyou are divine God. Think about
you brought your children here, camethrough you had natural It was it was
(22:53):
hard, right, but it wasa control that I feel so empowered that
I was able to do after deliveringbabies for thirty years. And it's sort
of interesting to be on the otherside. Right. Yeah, there are
some you know, who are terrifiedand there are others I can. I
remember I haven't delivered since twenty twenty, but handing over right onto the chest
(23:15):
onto a mom to say, thankyou for trusting me right to help you.
But you did this, you didand you did all the work.
I just put I just put Catchersmithon right. And like in my film,
there we happen to catch a beautifulbirth, and the woman who birth
in my film says, you know, as she's in the process, it's
(23:36):
like the hardest thing I've ever done. But the thing is when you get
through that, you know, youknow you can do anything. I had
a midwife say to me when womenin birth, you notice I don't use
the word delivery, I say birthing, because women birth they didn't livery They're
not delivering anything. Right, they'rebirthing. But what she said to me
was that when a women birth,she's not just birthing a baby, she's
(23:56):
birthing a mother. So there area few things happening in that moment,
you know, and when you've gonethrough that and you know you can do
anything to help raise this child forthe work of their lives. Yeah.
Yeah, it's powerful, right,Yeah, incredibly powerful when you think about
it, and everybody has a mother, everyone has, and it changes you
(24:17):
as a person for the rest ofyour life. You're never going to be
that same woman you were before thatmoment ever again, right, Yeah,
And that's an amazing, beautiful thing. Yeah, you are goddess. You're
at that point you're a warrior.Yeah, you go, it's a warrior.
I actually think my family would callme that. They would, They
(24:38):
probably would. It's a lot.It's a huge undertaking. Like you think
about it, it's really true.Yeah, I like that very much,
And I wish I knew more aboutlike my birthing story. I don't.
I don't know much. I mean, I know what time I was born,
and my mother calls me the sametime every year on my birthday,
which I love that, but Iwish, you know, we had more
(25:00):
conversations about like what our stories were, right, Yeah, I think often
unfortunately there there's trauma. Uh.So many women have trauma in birthing,
black, white, green, everybodythe way we birth here in this country.
So a lot of people don't wantto talk about it. They don't
want to revisit that trauma. ButI think you're right, we need to
(25:22):
share birth stories. I remember whenI was telling I told my son about
a song that was playing just beforehe was born, and he was like,
why didn't you ever tell me thatbefore? I was like, oh,
I don't know, it just never, it never came up, you
know. Yeah, he was soexcited to hear, like what was happening
in the room even before he gothere. It's funny when my daughter saw
(25:42):
pregnant picture of me, you know, she was like, was I in
your belly at that point? Yes, that would be you in there,
And it was a whole conversation.I just never I don't have that many
pictures, but I have a few, and those that I do, it's
really a celebration of like, yeah, I was yeah, I don't have
many pictures. No, I didn'teither. They're not the greatest, but
(26:04):
it is a conversation. It isa conversation beforehand, I think about it.
Yeah, No, I knew exactlywhere I was. I mean,
my first child was born in Birmingham, Alabama, my second was in New
Jersey, and just sort of thethe whole journey and and what happened.
I mean, I was working inthe craziness of being an obsttrician while you
(26:26):
while you're pregnant and operating and allthose kind of things, and so it's
a it was fun to go through. Yeah. The funniest and I'll tell
this quick story was that my sonlearning in and he'll kill me for telling
you this, but in elementary schoollearning about birth and you know, encouraged
to have that conversation before the filmis shown the next day. And my
(26:48):
son said, are you in thefilm? And I was like, no,
I'm not. And he was likeno, no, no, are
you the doctor either? One.Oh, that's so funny, that's so
good. I think about really quick. A picture that we have of our
wedding. So our wedding was likefive hundred bucks. I'm not even kidding.
(27:12):
We had our reception in my mother'sdining room and it was catered and
so my son is probably maybe sixor seven at the time, and we
had our little cake in the cornerand in my belly was Naya, right.
So it's our first kind of familypicture, like and on our wedding
day. So I do actually havesome pictures now that I think of it
that are like, I'm like thatyou actually, yeah, good picture,
(27:34):
great picture. And it's funny becausea few weeks ago I thought you were
a very cute pregnant not the firsttime around. I was. It was
okay. I tried to be cutethe second time around, but I just
I'm not one of those women thatI just got big all over me too,
me too. So my sister wascute. I didn't get the cute
gene when it came to the pregnantstuff. But but all good, you
(27:57):
got the cute gene period. Thankyou, so do you O. Well,
this has been a great conversation.I appreciate you both being here and
just your authenticity and your commitment tothis cause. Because the work continues,
it doeses and I can't thank Tanyaenough for being a partner and being on
(28:18):
our board and being a voice atthe table that we really need. It's
so powerful. Well, thank youwell, thank you for serving as our
CEO, for serving the organization.It's really meaningful that you were there.
So thanks very much. Well,this is great. So more to come.
Yes, excited about twenty twenty fourand all the things that are coming.
And this is great. So youare listening to me journal on iHeartRadio.
(28:41):
I am Kenya Gibson here with doctorElizabeth Schuau from March of Times.
And can I call you you're adoctor too? No, you're not a
doctor. Not a doctor. Whydo I want to call you a doctor?
You're going to give you doctor TanyaLuis okay, so Tanya Lewis Lee,
everyone, thank you, thank youso much for being here. And
until next time. Thank you.Kenya. You're welcome. Why do I
(29:04):
think I don't know? Maybe it'scoming. I know, you never know.
And when you know more and youknow better, you do better, right,
which is why we're here today.So I'm really really excited. We
are going into year or two ofour partnership and I'm here with my co
host today, doctor Elizabeth Chirou withMarch of Dimes. Thanks for having me,
Kenya, so excited to be here. Yeah, I'm so excited for
this partnership. But I've enjoyed thefew podcasts we've done and how you've taken
(00:23):
this. Yeah, and we haveone of our honorary guests, right,
you've been on the podcast a fewtimes I have. Yeah, happy to
be here, excited to have youback. So good to be with you
and Liz today. So nice.Yeah, so we have a lot to
talk about, right, you allboth have been working together. How long
have you been on the board ofdirectors? Who have March of Dimes been
on the board of March of Dimes. I think now I started in twenty
(00:46):
nineteen, So what does that makeit? Five years? Wow? Wow?
Goes fast. It does go gofast, but it's amazing. I
mean, I'm really excited to beon the board of March of Dimes and
support all the work that the organizationis doing. And I'm happy that Liz
is in the position that she's inour CEO and trying to support the strategy
(01:07):
that she's coming up with. Yes, so let's talk a little bit about
some of those strategies going into twentytwenty four and what's on the plate for
you all. Well, we've reallybeen looking at how we can help moms
and babies where they are. Weknow that we have some of the worst
outcomes of you know, industrial nations, of any nation really, and you
start looking at really inequities. Whenyou look at health inequities, it's moms
(01:30):
and babies that are affected. Andlet's go there, Black moms and babies.
And so we've got to solve forthis, and we have to solve
antony and I have had this conversationSolving for black women and black babies is
going to solve for everyone. Andso we've really been looking at the strategy
of where we can talk about access, where we can talk about cardiovascular risk,
(01:51):
and where we can really talk aboutinfant death at pre term birth,
and let's really narrow that across thespectrum of pregnancy. So we know that
an antipartum intrapartum and postpartum, andthen wrap around that full year that we've
been right, that's where neonatal intensivecarrying it and our infant death is measured
at a year, and we wantto impact all of that and specifically moms
(02:15):
and babies. We know that that'swhere we're going to start to target across
those three things. Sure, andTanya, how is your work and what
you're doing kind of folded into themission for a March of Dimes. Well,
you know, I've just been advocatingaround infant and women's health now for
fifteen almost twenty years now, andso joining the board of March of Dimes,
(02:39):
and you know my work as afilmmaker, I've made films about infant
mortality. I've made films about theUS maternal mortality crisis. For me,
it's really about raising awareness about theissues then talking about what the solutions are.
And so being a part of Marchof Dimes is a way for me
to continue that work, to seewhat the solutions are that the March of
(03:02):
Dimes is involved in, to helpamplify the messaging and and just keep the
drum beat going. It's we're allin alignment I mean, it's it's it's
great because Listen and I were talkingearlier about both of our paths to March
of Dimes. You know, we'vehad very different life lived experiences in lives.
(03:23):
She's a doctor, I'm a lawyerby trade, and yet we've both
come to this place to try toprove improve the outcomes for women, for
babies, and for families in thiscountry. And so that's why, that's
why I'm there. That's great,amazing, She's amazing. I know,
well you both are well. Listen, I say that I pinched myself.
I think about where I was fiveyears ago you were talking about. I
(03:45):
was like I was delivering babies,right, I was serving moms and and
you know, handing the babies offright because I'm not a pediatrician. But
I think about where I've gotten toand sort of where right we've now crossed
paths, and I'm inspired. Imean, Aftershock is an incredible film.
You haven't seen it, go seeit on Hulu. I'm gonna plug it,
(04:06):
thank but honestly it is so itis something that it does. It
takes your breath away to watch andsee, and then it also hopefully galvanizes
you to this movement and that amplification, honestly is it's award winning. It's
an incredible and I can't praise Tanyaenough for what she's helped us do within
(04:28):
the March of Dimes and really helpedamplifying us as well. But her journey
is incredible, you know, Iappreciate that and I and I think that
that the overall the point is thatwe all, all of us have a
role to play and improving the outcomes. It's about figuring out where you plug
in. And so for me,it's as a filmmaker, it's as an
advocate, it's at as a boardmember, it's as a friend, it's
(04:50):
as a mom, all of it, yeah, all the things. Yeah.
Yeah, So speaking of movement,you all are really mobile. Now
I want to talk about the Marchof Dimes Mom Baby Mobile Health Center that's
officially launched, right, Can youtell us a little bit more about what's
happening with that. Yeah. Soit's a partnership with New York Presbyterian.
So you have to remember, eventhough I'm a provider, we at the
(05:12):
March of Diamond are not provider.We actually are convenor. So we partner
with New York Presbyterian and we're actuallyseeing patients starting in February. I like
to think of mobile units as popup clinics, right, you think of
pop up and it's a really neatway to get back into the community.
Right. You don't have to cometo the provider. We're coming to you
(05:33):
and we're doing everything from providing inanatalvisits, postpartum visits, mental health screening.
We're also handing out food. We'rehanding out I think it's been fifteen
thousand tons of food. Wow,just in the short term. Tons of
diapers, I think it's I couldlook up the number. But it's amazing
what we're doing boots on in thecommunities to do this work because we know
(05:56):
that it's not just about a doctoror midwife visit. It's really about being
in the community and being where momsare and helping them and what they need.
Yeah, and that full cycle ofcare right exactly. That comes down
to accessibility, which we've talked alot of times about. It's so meaningful.
I mean, I think sometimes peopleforget it's hard for people to get
(06:16):
somewhere to leave a community. Sometimesthey don't have transportation, Sometimes they have,
they have family members, they haveto look after, they have reasons
why they can't leave their community.So for March of Dimes to have these
multi these mobile units that are inthe community accessible to people, providing the
kind of preventative care that they needas well as actually providing groceries is truly
(06:43):
powerful and I think it can it'sreally impactful in the communities. Yeah,
we've been doing it in Ohio,so I should mention we've been in Appalachia,
We've been in the Inner City inWashingt d C. We're actually launching
in Houston and Arizona, so wow, right, we are. Strategy is
really not to own a fleet ofmobile units, but really to be a
convenior that we can then hand thatback over into the community so that it
(07:08):
continues to run for years at atime that we've been doing this, I
kind of can't believe that only twopercent of all mobile units are in maternal
care. Wow right. We domamigrams, we do blood draws, but
we're not doing what we fundamentally shouldbe doing. And so we feel like
a pioneer in the space. Youare and excited that we're able to do
(07:29):
it. And I think it's greattoo, especially when the March of Dimes
does their annual Maternal Health Desert report. You know, we can't answer every
community that has a maternal health desert, but what you're seeing is the March
of Dimes trying to respond and answerto that, which is fantastic. Yeah,
and it's a great supplementation to whatcan be done in those maternal health
(07:53):
deserts. We might not necessarily beable to build a hospital or build a
health care center, right, butyou can create access to this mobile health
unit, which I think is incredible. Yeah. A maternity care desert absolute
highlights the miles to drive. Soif we're able to get that care right
and able to we know that momsand babies who don't get any kind of
(08:13):
care, they're the worst outcomes.So we know preterm birth for black women
in the maturity care desert much worse. So we all that data. It
drives where we need to be.We need more of them. Yeah,
but it's one of the solutions.Absolutely, it's great. So I kind
of want to go back to yourrole on the board, right. You
know, you've been working with theorganization for five years. Has there any
(08:35):
been any like highlight or pivotal momentfor you that really has been like,
Wow, this is very meaningful tome, and this is why I'm here.
You know that. That's a reallygreat question. I mean, I
think the way March of Jime sortof approaches the issue of maternal health care,
maternal and infant health care, reallyit is fascinating to me. I
(08:58):
mean, they we advocate on thehill. You know, we have a
wonderful avocan and Stacy Brayboy there whoworks to try to get policies in place,
because we can only do this workif we are supported by the policies
out there in our communities. Right, so we've got that. You know,
(09:18):
there are all sorts of different kindsof initiatives that we have. You
know, I don't want to getahead of us on the aspirin low dose
and Liz will clarify exactly what I'msaying, but the protocol for low dose
aspirin when it comes to pre clamshawthese days, we've been taking low dose
aspirin to to prevent pre clamshaw thatwe're coming out with. I think that
(09:43):
for me though, honestly, whatI really get out of Marshal Dimes are
the people on the board, thepeople in the organization who are really doing
the work on the ground day in, day out, are just amazing.
And I feel in inspired by thework that's happening and the commitment that is
there to really improve the outcomes.I think people know March of Dimes.
(10:07):
Some people know March of Dimes fromFDR and solving polio. Some people know
March of Dimes as advocating for premihealth. I came on the board really
when we were talking about health equity, really making sure that March of Dimes
has moved into the space to improveoutcomes for all moms on all babies.
(10:28):
Understanding that we have a health equityproblem in this country, and as Liz
said earlier, if we solve itfor the most vulnerable, which are clearly
black women in black and brown womenin this country, we will solve it
for everyone. And so that's whatreally got me excited was this new iteration
of March of Dimes really focusing inthe health equity issue, which to me
(10:50):
is the thing that we all needto be focusing on right now in this
country because health is everything. Yeah, and if we can get that in
order it. It just power thisforward. Definitely, I love it.
Yeah, No, our advocacy workis huge. I don't think people realize
how much. When I testified onthe hill, it's like what I've got
to do, where I'll go dothis seat section in the hallway more comfortable
(11:11):
than sitting, But it is soimportant and I also think it is it's
frightening it first to do that work. We have an incredible woman who runs
our Office of Government Affairs, Stacybray Boy, and really we have done
some incredible work when it comes tothe Premiact, when it comes to supporting
(11:31):
moms in the workplace in that FairnessAct. We've also been really advocating for
reimbursement for midwives is the same asany other provider physician. Love that,
Yeah, And we're really doing alot of dual work. And we've been
doing a big grant with CBS andFoundation and our dul work in our markets
(11:52):
and really looking at that from areimbursement standpoint. So I love that you
brought up our advocacy because I don'tthink people think of that and they don't
know that that's where the change hasto happen. Absolutely, and we are
bipartisan, which is crazy, Right, We're able to do this in a
bipartisan way, and there's not manyorganizations that are able to do that,
so health equity should be bipartisan.But absolutely so. I I you highlighted
(12:18):
that in such a great way,I think, And yeah, I think
those that are stepping up this isa time for us really have to realize
that we have to find the solutionsthat close the health happening. We're trying
to use that lens with every programwe do so and I love that it's
becoming a main stream conversation, rightbecause it wasn't before, Right, I
(12:39):
don't. I don't even think threeyears ago it was as front and center
as it is now. Right.So, I think we've learned some things.
I think historically we sort of blamedpeople for their health issues, that
it's really their fault. They're notgoing to see the doctor, they're not
eating well, they're they're just livingwild and causing all of their own health
(13:03):
issues. And I think we havewoken up to realize that actually the system,
the systemic issue, is really theproblem. We were just talking earlier
about how black and brown people showup at their doctor's offices and they complain
of symptoms and they are not seenor heard. And that's across the board,
(13:24):
from pregnant women to all people.So I think now we know that
the health equity issue is not anissue of Black people just being negligent when
it comes to their self care.It's that when they actually go to seek
care, they're not getting the treatmentthat they really need and deserve. And
so that's something we can fix rightnow that we know. And so I
(13:48):
think the conversation of health equity isgrowing, and I think what we realize
is that, as I said earlierand I'll keep saying it, if you
solve the problem for the most vulneulnerable, you make it better for everybody else.
Right. Yeah, And we've gota lot of data that we're building
up behind it, which helps uskind of show us the markers and like
(14:09):
how we're pushing forward. Absolutely.Yeah. When to me, when I
amplify the data that black babies aretwo times more likely not to make their
first birthday compared to their white counterpart, I don't I get. I have
chills when I think about that.I think about all the children I've delivered,
right and right, right, andthen as a society, how do
(14:31):
we how do we change that andhow do we really get trust back into
the healthcare system. I think that'sa really big thing. It's access and
how do we get the bias outand that that you know, listen,
that's peeling all the onions, onionson the table right, all those layers
there. But but yes, weuse our data to really drive and amplify
(14:56):
and we are continuing to do that. We have another Maturing Care does a
report that'll come out this year,which again it's sort of you know what,
I don't expect it to be inthe right direction. We're going to
actually look to within metro areas sospecific. Really that's a teaser that I'm
really excited that we're going to beputting out there. Also, think our
visualization of our data. If youdon't want to go through the five page
(15:16):
report for every state, if youjust look at the map, you'll be
able to see it. Yeah,and be able to see that. And
i'd also say just to lean intoour report card you know that we put
out in November. The thing thatI find and I have this conversation all
the time looking at moms and babiesin our health outcomes is a window into
our healthcare system. Yes, andit's broken. And you know we're not
(15:39):
talking about you know that we don'thave you know, things like public health,
like we have sanitation, we havevaccines, we have these things in
this country. So when you reallystart thinking about some of the inequities and
other we have to look at ourinside our own country. And again,
you know, I encourage everybody togo to the Market Times website to go
(16:03):
look at the pre term Birth ReportCard as well as the Maturity Care Desert
because I do think visually you cansee it immediately. Sure, they're really
rich documents and really really great use. People put great use to them.
I'm really proud of them and proudof the team that puts that together.
Our Paranatal Data Center is fantastic.And you also have implicit bias training resources
(16:25):
that you put in place to helpwithin the provider networks. Yeah, we
actually have training for trainers. Sowe have a train the trainer model.
We have partnered with healthcare systems,hospitals, private groups to do implicit buas
training. And it's not a oneand done, which I repeat that over
and over again. I've done oneand done, and it's not helpful,
right, You need to continue tohave that follow up and the next iteration
(16:48):
of it because it's it's not somethingthat you just fixed with one training.
So we need the small groups andthe real conversations and the real buy in
to make the change. And we'vegot some quality improvement projects that we're working
in the same vein that I thinkare really exciting that we're coming down coming
out this year actually, and Ithink that's great that March of Dimes is
doing that, and I think it'simportant. But I also say that when
(17:12):
it comes to healthcare providers especially,we need to start that training in med
schools and really that you know,I think med schools need to be really
thinking about how they're raising up doctorsand the biases that show up in the
textbooks that they use and all ofthat. It's all hands on on deck
approach. But what marsh of doing, what March of Dimes is doing and
(17:34):
offering is very valuable. But weneed to go a little bit back far.
No, You're absolutely right, andwe do some with medical schools.
We have a few, not enough, you know, and I think it's
an interesting approach to really look atsome of the testing that we do with
the bias that we have, andthat's kind of the American collegere Ubujuan sort
(17:56):
of surface that a couple of yearsago. And so I love that it's
really getting deep into those conversations.But it's it feels like it's a little
behind. It takes time, itdoes. But so that's why we continue
to talk about it, right,That's why I continue to amplify it and
discuss it because it's it's why wecontinue our implicit bias training. It's good.
(18:18):
Yeah, it's crucial to how wemove forward. Yeah, it is
so from both of your perspectives.I mean, we have training in place,
we have resources in place, wehave policy that's in place. Like
I guess, what does the nextphase of the work look like? Oh,
I guess I have to lean inthere. So really excited that we
(18:38):
are really promoting a lot. Whenyou we really look at access to care,
we're looking at and that access tocare talks about maternal mental health as
well as just access. Right,So it's you know, if you think
about mental health, a lot oftimes it's about that access component. I
talk because I talk a lot aboutthe cardiovascular because we know that something like
(19:02):
aspirin, which is supported by theAmerican College of Obgun, which is supported
by our US Preventative Task Force Societyof MFM A low dose, so that's
a baby aspirin, started it twelveweeks and continue to take daily can prevent
pre clampsia. There's toolkits to reviewto decide does this patient need it?
But we are encouraging that is forproviders, but we are really encouraging patients
(19:26):
to come in to ask that question, should I be on an aspirin?
And we're excited because preclampsia we knowaffects black women more. We know that
it is one of the most preventable. It can happen before, during,
and after pregnancy and can have someof the worst outcomes. One in seven
pregnancy admissions is affected by a cardiovascarevent. Wow, so most of that
(19:52):
is pre clampsia. So this issomething that we when treated and when treated
early, and we know that that'ssomething like six doesn't get treated appropriately can
lead to death. So when Istart saying what are we doing? This
is when we're trying to talk aboutpreventable maternal and infant outcomes return birth.
This is all aligned around getting theword out about aspirin. So we're excited
(20:15):
to elevate that and there's a lotof work being done in preclamc right now.
There are biomarkers to test for whichare predictors for severe outcome. I
mean, I'm so excited about thestuff that's coming, but we want to
be on the forefront of getting themessage out for getting women to ask that
question. Should they be very Yeah? And I would say from my perspective,
(20:36):
I think for me, it's aboutreally turning this conversation around. I
appreciate the doctors who are really outthere trying to make sure that those who
have the higher risk are getting thecare they need. But eighty five percent
of birthing people are healthy and shouldn'thave any issues, And so I think
we need to be thinking about whatis birth and what is birth mean in
(21:00):
general. It is an amazing thingthat women and wombs bring forth life into
this world. I said, Ilove to say, and this has heard
me say it that we women aredivine goddesses who bring forth life and it's
a sacred act and for those ofus who choose to birth, it should
(21:22):
be it's like a rite of passagein life, and we should be able
to experience it from the moment thatwe know that we are pregnant. We
should be on a sacred journey tobringing this child here in the most natural
way possible, experiencing the whole thing. We should not be afraid of birth.
(21:42):
It should not be a fear.It should be an exciting opportunity that
you have when we're able to havethe kind of support around us that we
want and need. It gives usthe protection to be able to shut everything
out, drop into that space ofbirthing so that you can touch, be
(22:03):
in touch with your body and dowhat it needs to do to bring forth
this life. So for me,I need to figure out how my messaging,
how we turn this conversation around soit's not about fear. Yes,
if you have an issue, thenyes you need to go and do these
things. But for the eighty fivepercent of us who really should not have
any complications, we should just bereally excited and enjoy all of it and
(22:30):
not fear pain, and not feardeath or near death, and just enjoy
the experience. Yeah, and behappy, right, Yeah, be happy.
I love the divine Goddess. Ineed to tell them both my children,
I'm a divine godess. You areyou are divine God. Think about
you brought your children here, camethrough you had natural It was it was
(22:53):
hard, right, but it wasa control that I feel so empowered that
I was able to do after deliveringbabies for thirty years. And it's sort
of interesting to be on the otherside. Right. Yeah, there are
some you know, who are terrifiedand there are others I can. I
remember I haven't delivered since twenty twenty, but handing over right onto the chest
(23:15):
onto a mom to say, thankyou for trusting me right to help you.
But you did this, you didand you did all the work.
I just put I just put Catchersmithon right. And like in my film,
there we happen to catch a beautifulbirth, and the woman who birth
in my film says, you know, as she's in the process, it's
(23:36):
like the hardest thing I've ever done. But the thing is when you get
through that, you know, youknow you can do anything. I had
a midwife say to me when womenin birth, you notice I don't use
the word delivery, I say birthing, because women birth they didn't livery They're
not delivering anything. Right, they'rebirthing. But what she said to me
was that when a women birth,she's not just birthing a baby, she's
(23:56):
birthing a mother. So there area few things happening in that moment,
you know, and when you've gonethrough that and you know you can do
anything to help raise this child forthe work of their lives. Yeah.
Yeah, it's powerful, right,Yeah, incredibly powerful when you think about
it, and everybody has a mother, everyone has, and it changes you
(24:17):
as a person for the rest ofyour life. You're never going to be
that same woman you were before thatmoment ever again, right, Yeah,
And that's an amazing, beautiful thing. Yeah, you are goddess. You're
at that point you're a warrior.Yeah, you go, it's a warrior.
I actually think my family would callme that. They would, They
(24:38):
probably would. It's a lot.It's a huge undertaking. Like you think
about it, it's really true.Yeah, I like that very much,
And I wish I knew more aboutlike my birthing story. I don't.
I don't know much. I mean, I know what time I was born,
and my mother calls me the sametime every year on my birthday,
which I love that, but Iwish, you know, we had more
(25:00):
conversations about like what our stories were, right, Yeah, I think often
unfortunately there there's trauma. Uh.So many women have trauma in birthing,
black, white, green, everybodythe way we birth here in this country.
So a lot of people don't wantto talk about it. They don't
want to revisit that trauma. ButI think you're right, we need to
(25:22):
share birth stories. I remember whenI was telling I told my son about
a song that was playing just beforehe was born, and he was like,
why didn't you ever tell me thatbefore? I was like, oh,
I don't know, it just never, it never came up, you
know. Yeah, he was soexcited to hear, like what was happening
in the room even before he gothere. It's funny when my daughter saw
(25:42):
pregnant picture of me, you know, she was like, was I in
your belly at that point? Yes, that would be you in there,
And it was a whole conversation.I just never I don't have that many
pictures, but I have a few, and those that I do, it's
really a celebration of like, yeah, I was yeah, I don't have
many pictures. No, I didn'teither. They're not the greatest, but
(26:04):
it is a conversation. It isa conversation beforehand, I think about it.
Yeah, No, I knew exactlywhere I was. I mean,
my first child was born in Birmingham, Alabama, my second was in New
Jersey, and just sort of thethe whole journey and and what happened.
I mean, I was working inthe craziness of being an obsttrician while you
(26:26):
while you're pregnant and operating and allthose kind of things, and so it's
a it was fun to go through. Yeah. The funniest and I'll tell
this quick story was that my sonlearning in and he'll kill me for telling
you this, but in elementary schoollearning about birth and you know, encouraged
to have that conversation before the filmis shown the next day. And my
(26:48):
son said, are you in thefilm? And I was like, no,
I'm not. And he was likeno, no, no, are
you the doctor either? One.Oh, that's so funny, that's so
good. I think about really quick. A picture that we have of our
wedding. So our wedding was likefive hundred bucks. I'm not even kidding.
(27:12):
We had our reception in my mother'sdining room and it was catered and
so my son is probably maybe sixor seven at the time, and we
had our little cake in the cornerand in my belly was Naya, right.
So it's our first kind of familypicture, like and on our wedding
day. So I do actually havesome pictures now that I think of it
that are like, I'm like thatyou actually, yeah, good picture,
(27:34):
great picture. And it's funny becausea few weeks ago I thought you were
a very cute pregnant not the firsttime around. I was. It was
okay. I tried to be cutethe second time around, but I just
I'm not one of those women thatI just got big all over me too,
me too. So my sister wascute. I didn't get the cute
gene when it came to the pregnantstuff. But but all good, you
(27:57):
got the cute gene period. Thankyou, so do you O. Well,
this has been a great conversation.I appreciate you both being here and
just your authenticity and your commitment tothis cause. Because the work continues,
it doeses and I can't thank Tanyaenough for being a partner and being on
(28:18):
our board and being a voice atthe table that we really need. It's
so powerful. Well, thank youwell, thank you for serving as our
CEO, for serving the organization.It's really meaningful that you were there.
So thanks very much. Well,this is great. So more to come.
Yes, excited about twenty twenty fourand all the things that are coming.
And this is great. So youare listening to me journal on iHeartRadio.
(28:41):
I am Kenya Gibson here with doctorElizabeth Schuau from March of Times.
And can I call you you're adoctor too? No, you're not a
doctor. Not a doctor. Whydo I want to call you a doctor?
You're going to give you doctor TanyaLuis okay, so Tanya Lewis Lee,
everyone, thank you, thank youso much for being here. And
until next time. Thank you.Kenya. You're welcome. Why do I
(29:04):
think I don't know? Maybe it'scoming. I know, you never know.
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