September 12, 2024 • 53 mins
In this poignant and powerful episode of the MEternal Podcast, we sit down with maternal health advocates Omari Maynard and Bruce McIntyre, featured in the impactful HULU documentary "Aftershock." Both Omari and Bruce faced the devastating loss of their significant others due to birthing complications. Their stories of grief, resilience, and transformation offer profound insights into the challenges of single fatherhood and the urgent need for healthcare reform.
In this episode, we explore:
Personal Stories of Loss: Omari and Bruce share their heartbreaking experiences of losing their partners and the emotional toll it has taken on their lives.
Single Fatherhood: Their journey through parenting alone and the challenges they face as they raise their children without their partners.
Advocacy and Change: How these fathers have channeled their grief into a powerful platform to advocate for families of color, pushing for systemic changes in maternal healthcare.
Building Support Systems: Insights into creating communities and resources to support those affected by similar tragedies and ensuring that their voices are heard.
Join us for a deeply moving conversation that highlights the urgent need for change in maternal health care and the incredible strength found in advocacy and community. This episode is a testament to the power of turning personal loss into a catalyst for broader change.
In this episode, we explore:
Personal Stories of Loss: Omari and Bruce share their heartbreaking experiences of losing their partners and the emotional toll it has taken on their lives.
Single Fatherhood: Their journey through parenting alone and the challenges they face as they raise their children without their partners.
Advocacy and Change: How these fathers have channeled their grief into a powerful platform to advocate for families of color, pushing for systemic changes in maternal healthcare.
Building Support Systems: Insights into creating communities and resources to support those affected by similar tragedies and ensuring that their voices are heard.
Join us for a deeply moving conversation that highlights the urgent need for change in maternal health care and the incredible strength found in advocacy and community. This episode is a testament to the power of turning personal loss into a catalyst for broader change.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, it's been wonderful to connect with you from
the jump of all of this because you know, both
of you and Bruce have had some pretty traumatic experiences
in this space, and this is why we wanted to
have a dedicated platform to be able to tell stories
like yourselves.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Sure, yeah, that storytelling pieces super It's big just for
the simple fact that you know, if you're really telling
your story, then it's super personal, you know, and when
you're doing personal things like that, you're able to I mean,
of course engage in touch and feel people. But at
the same time, like the biggest thing for me, just
for us our relationship is like just being open and
(00:39):
honest with each other and having our personal stories be
the catalyst that allows us to enter in each other's lives. Right, So,
like I did the podcast, but you also came to
the art show, right, you know, we did we did
events together. You know, we see each other in spaces
and like stuff like that makes coming here easier and
makes the work more digestible, you know. And you know,
(01:04):
just knowing that, you know, when I'm out there and
I'm feeling like crap because I don't want to do
this anymore. Same with Bruce called a mile. I'm sure
you know we all have those times. But just to
know that there's other people champion you and wanting you
to win, and you know, and doing the work as
well in their own way, you know, it's super important,
you know, and that it helps.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, it's a movement. It's a movement.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I know we've heard a lot about your story, but
I just for people who have not heard of your
story or not familiar, I want to tap into that
a little quickly before we get to Bruce, because I
know initially we connected off of the documentary and you
were you know, you've gone through a lot of stuff,
you know, and you've been pretty triumphant through your artwork,
through your running, through your family, through your children. So
(01:52):
I want you to share a little bit about your
journey and how you got to this space.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I also didn't know who were rolling We are all right, great.
So my name is Omari Maynard. I am the co
founder of the ARIA Foundation. ARIA stands for the advance
of the Reproductive Innovation through ardustry and Healing. My partner,
Shamani Gibson, she passed away October sixth, twenty nineteen, giving
birth to our second child, and in that time frame,
(02:19):
a lot of things were going on. My birthday was
five days after she passed. We ended up having to
bury her on my birthday. I was going through so
many feelings issues. She was healthy, vibrant, thirty years old.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Young.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
We were planning on having at home birth, having a
v back, which is vaginal birth after C section, and
you know, we recovered, the community, knew what we were doing,
We had a birth plan, we had you know, connections
with the hospital that we ended up having to go to,
you know, so we didn't feel in any way, shape
or form like we were going to be on this
(02:55):
other side of this maternal health story.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Fortunately, you know, through even though we had all the resources,
we had, all the information, we had community, we had
a plan. You know, we still and she still was
not listened to. After she had our child, she ended
up having sharp chest pains, you know, all the signs
of there possibly being a blood clot and this is
(03:20):
what we told them. Doctors didn't listen to us. And again,
thirteen days after you know, she came home and gave
birth to our son, she ended up passing away. I
think that you know, our story just from you know,
my point of view, from a partner's point of view,
is is not a story that's always told, you know. Unfortunately,
(03:43):
the maternal health crisis is something that is an epidemic.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
It's a crisis, is an epidemic.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
You know, women, Black women specifically are four times more
likely to pass away than their white counterparts, you know,
And when we have this conversation, of course, it's devastated,
you know.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But you know, when we think about it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
There's a partner who's left behind with you know, children
hopefully you know, or going through the loss of the
mother and child, because infant mortality is just as bad
as you know, maternal mortality, but it's not necessarily a
story that you really hear about, you know. So having
me up here just thank you so much. Thank you
for always checking in on me, always covering me, always
(04:21):
making sure that I'm well, my children are well, you know,
And it's stuff like that that allows for the space
for me to be able to do this activist work
and create community for men, create artwork around maternal health
and just art work in general to help tell our
with stories and making sure that people understand that these
women who are passing away one are super important to
(04:43):
the community. They're pillars in their own rights, you know.
And also too that you know we are creating as
touching in excuse me, touching as many people as we
can within this maternal health community to bring each other
closer so that we can all move in one accord
to redirect birth and outcomes.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, And it's super important that you know you're the
voices for them now, right. And I think that that's
commendable because there's not a lot of representation of men
in this space.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So I guess my question to both you would be like,
what do you think the future of Black maternal health
looks like through the eyes of a man? Right, Because
it's like, this is happening to women, but at the
same you know, breath, it's it's also happening to you
as a partner.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Definitely.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
I think men have grown to want to educate themselves
on reproductive health. I'm starting to speak to high schoolers,
high school teenage boys who are interested in maternal health
and reproductive health, wanting to be a better, better partner
to their to their spouse. I'm seeing more men be
(05:48):
engaged with like Black Maternal Health Week or anything that's
black manternal health related to show that men have always
been here, men have wanted to be here, but we've
had that stigma that's been played based on us for
such a long time that you know, men don't want
to be around me and don't want to take care
of their kids, when that's not true. The CDC actually
dropped dropped us some statistics that showed that Black men,
(06:12):
whether they live in the household or not, they're the
most engaged with their children more than anybody else. So
I think that speaks, you know, power to to what
men are trying to bring into the maternal health space.
You know, we're wanting to advocate for women. Unfortunately, we
live in a world where where women just aren't being heard,
women aren't being listened to, and for some reason, men
(06:36):
are just being heard more. And I feel like that's
something that we need to change because these women are
screaming to the top of their lungs that we need change,
and we want to make sure that we're here to
support them, support our women, uplift our women, and let them.
Speaker 7 (06:50):
Know that we're here.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Now. You and Omari met through the making of the documentary.
Is that how that worked? Out or you knew each
other before that.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
So we actually met each other right right before the
documentary at the time Omar, I believe he was already filming,
and right after my partner passed away. Of course, I
jumped straight into advocacy work. But you know, I was.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
I was lost. I was really looking for help.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I was really looking for support, and like speaking to
best friends that I grew up with for twenty plus years,
they just didn't understand what I was going through.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
You know, all you hear is, well, you know, we're
sorry for your loss.
Speaker 6 (07:28):
That's really all all that they can give you because
they haven't lived out that experience. And I remember when
o'mary called me and told me his story and his situation.
You know, the first time meeting each other, Me and
Omari were on the phone for like three hours just
talking about everything that happened. You know how we're feeling
really being vulnerable with each other. So we can, you know,
(07:50):
figure out how we can come together to make a change.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
What support systems are in place for men that go
through these type of situations.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Oh yeah, so I'm glad you asked that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So we're creating and innovating, right We are at a
point in this time frame where you know, we're understanding.
Because when me and Bruce both came into this space,
I knew there was an organization, there was something that
men were like, we're doing this and we're charging ourselves
(08:24):
to create this change within the maternal health space. But
there really wasn't at all. It was like a pockets
of men, you know, doing their own kind of separate thing,
you know, and you know, fast forward four or five
years later, I see a lot more men, a lot
more faces, you know, at these conferences.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You know, using their own men's group.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Platforms to have conversations around maternal health. But what I
decided to do was create a virtual experience. So we
I have a collective called the luxe Or Collective, and
the lux Or Collective is basically was basically created because
of Shamani Gibson. You know, it's a space where men
(09:05):
who have suffered loss from maternal health have a chance
to get together virtually every other Thursday, seven thirty to
nine pm just have conversation.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Sometimes it's around you know, healthcare and you know, but
a lot of it is around just issues that we
are dealing with as black men. In America, the traumas,
the griefs and you know, the stigmas, and having a
space to just have a have conversation with other men.
And you know, it's super dope because of the fact
that you know, like so it just kind of rewinds
(09:37):
a little bit. Shaanie Gibson, Shamani's mother, has been in
the maternal health space for decades, so she already has
the established community of midwives, duelers for professionals in the
space who understand the importance of having a men's group.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So the therapist Shamania and I used to go to,
he comes to the men's group with me, Shaany's best friend,
who is also a grief counselor helped me through my
whole you know, traumatic process. He comes to the men's group.
We have men who have our pillars in their own right,
have their own men's organizations. They come with doctor Willie Parker,
(10:12):
who's a black will be gyn located in Texas. He
comes to the men's group, you know, and it's super
It's amazing because it's in a generational conversation. So we
have men who are seventy, we have men who are twenty,
you know, we're really talking to each other on the
same level, but about issues that black men are dealing with,
specifically black men who've suffered from trauma due to whatever
(10:33):
health care issue, whether it be maternal health excuse me,
maternal mortality, infant mortality, releasing pregnancies, you know, abortions, losing
their partner to cancer, any and everything. You know, we
have a space where we are able to fellowship every
other week and just release. And Bruce said, you know,
(10:54):
there's conversations, there are things that you want answers to,
but you don't even know how to act other people sometimes, right,
because it's so sensitive, you know. But in this space,
you know what's open for that, you know. So I
love it. I mean, I'm organizing it. But at the
same time, it's my therapy every other week, you know.
So you've been doing it for a year and a
half and it's thriving.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I mean, men grieve much differently than women, right, And
you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel
like men suppress a lot of things, Like you're not
as emotional as we are in terms of like expressing
your feelings and so on and so forth. And which
brings me to you had come to support us at
the Mental Wealth Expo a couple of years ago. You
had brought your children out and we did this kind
(11:35):
of roundtable panel discussion about the after effects of dealing
with loss, and I was so blown away by the
vulnerability that was in the room, especially men were involved
in terms of like sharing their emotions and sharing like
where they were in the emotional space. So I would
love to see that come to the forefront more often
because it's needed right And you know, I think about
(11:58):
stories such as yourself, you know, in terms of your
loss and like what you had to deal with, you know,
as far as you know grieving your partner. Is there
anything now when you look back on that experience that
you would say would have maybe helped you had a
resource been in place to cope better, to to create
(12:18):
a better outlet for yourself. I mean, I know it's unexpected,
but I just be curious to know how you think
anything might have helped you moving forward or had it
been in place.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
I mean, I don't think anything would have really helped
at that time, other than I really wish we would
have sought out a midwife from the very beginning. I
feel like that that really would have would have helped,
and that really would have saved her life.
Speaker 7 (12:48):
But I also wish that.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, like as mentioned there, there's not as many you know,
programs or systems that are out here dedicated for grieving fathers.
After Amber passed away, I was, you know, searching for
a group, searching for counseling, searching to heal. And I
just remember the hospital was trying to the hospital where
my fiance passed away at they were trying to offer
(13:12):
us therapy, and you know, Amber's mother and I were
speaking to this therapist and without even giving us the
proper evaluations, she was so quick to throw drugs in
her face, like xanax another stronger anti depressants. And I
often see that in black and brown communities where these
perpetuated cycles damaged communities. You know, you gain an addiction
(13:37):
to these drugs, you're left incompetent to take care of
your child.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
And that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
You know, how am I supposed to take care of
my newborn son who just left, who just lost his
mother If I'm doped up on drugs and I'm left
incompetent to take care of him. Then you have to
worry about child protective services and that just becomes a
whole other animal that you have to fight. And so
the midwives and doulas that I had been working with
towards the end of Amber's pregnancy or during my advocacy work,
(14:03):
because I jumped into advocacy immediately, they were the ones
who really offered me the support, the guidance and the help,
you know, like they would set me up.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
They set me up with a.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
Grief counselor where I was able to find holistic healing.
I was able to discover different meditations, koreas, breathing exercises
for anxiety, you know, and I always had somebody that
I could talk to and I know that they were listening.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
The doulas.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
You know, Amber was one of the most healthiest people
I've ever known of my life, and she held a
strict pascatarian diet up until she became pregnant, and she
held a vegan diet. So I wanted to I wanted
my son to receive the same vitamins and nutrients that
he was receiving for his mother while he was in
the womb. And you know, speaking to a doula. They
set me up with a lactation consultant. I partnered with
(14:52):
the lactation consultants. They paired me with donors who matched
Amber's dietary restrictions, and so my son Elias was able
to still receive those same vitamins and nutrients. So I
wish we would have we would have seeked out a
midwife and do it at the very beginning, because I
really feel like they would have been attentive to her
(15:13):
needs and tailor her needs and she would be here.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, how are you coping as a dad now? Like,
how are things for you?
Speaker 7 (15:20):
I mean, it's it's one day at a time. You know,
it's tough. It comes in waves.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
But I you know, realize the more busy we are
and the more that we're starting to see, you know,
in these these outcomes, we're starting to see more of
these uncomfortable discussions being had. We're reaching out to millions
of people, and you know, I like to think it
as you know, our our partners are a martyr for
change and they're saving the lives of millions, and that's
(15:49):
what brings me healing. Advocating for others and knowing that
this work and that their names aren't going in.
Speaker 7 (15:56):
Vain is what brings healing to me in the community.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, and it's brought you into this space because I
know you have some birthing centers that you're working on,
and you're working on some real time solutions that are
going to help the community. We have a lot of
conversations on this podcast about maternal health deserts, right and
how vast they are and how there's like no one
size fits all to them. But I was so excited
(16:20):
to hear about like the solution that you're bringing to
the community in terms of solving that.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
So other developed nations around the world, they have midwives
and doulas, and with those midwives and doulas, they are
creating better birthing outcomes. And so that's something that I
truly believe and I do believe in that model of
care where you're being taken care of before, during, after childbirth,
and throughout the postpart and period. I really think that's
(16:46):
how we, you know, curve and preserve mental health. And
you know, so I back back when we were doing
this work, I was trying to switch over to a
midwife while we knew that Amber was being neglected so
long and dealing with incompetent doctors that we didn't want
to deal with anymore. And so I took it upon
(17:07):
myself because Amber made sure I was always included in
the birthing, the birthing journey, the birthing experience, and so
I was the one who actually found our midwife. I
interviewed our midwife, introduced her, and she loved it. She
loved our midwife, and so, you know, of course, we
(17:27):
you know, due to her being so high risk at
that point, we had to go back to the hospital.
We weren't able to attend due to the negligence. Of course,
we weren't able to attend a birth center. We weren't
able to have a home birth, so we had to
go back into the medical system. And so after her passing,
of course, I started to looking to birthing centers and
(17:51):
what birthing centers do, what midwives do, and just realizing
the importance of birthing centers and why it's needed. You know,
I personally don't feel like you should be birthing in
a hospital if you're not high risk. I believe you
should be birthing in a birthing center. Where where these
women are being attentive to your needs and they're taking
care of you.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
And then I.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
Realized at the time, we only had two birthing centers
in New York. We had we had one in Brooklyn,
and then we had another one upstate. So there were,
you know, women who were driving four to five hours
to get upstate just to give birth, and we shouldn't
be doing that.
Speaker 7 (18:30):
It is dangerous.
Speaker 6 (18:31):
We should be so we should definitely have one in
the city. And in the Bronx we are seeing the
highest mortality and morbidity rates as well, So it's we're
in dire need of a birthing censor. And that's so
back in twenty twenty when I was doing this work,
I was partnering with the midwife who helped us. She
introduced me to my La Flores and doctor Carlo Williams
(18:52):
and and was letting me know that they're also fighting
for a birth center in the Bronx. And that's when
we joined our efforts together. And now we're creating this change.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Which is crazy because you think about New York City
and how big it is, and you think about the
Bronx and it's like the fact that you're saying we
had to fight for a birthing center. It's just that
blows my mind.
Speaker 7 (19:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, So we have actually both of these young ladies
here with us today who are your partners, and you know,
I'm excited to hear from you both because I think
what's important to this platform is that people know the
difference between the options and the benefits that a birthing
center offers versus going into the hospital system, right because
I think we're given that narrative that it's safe in
(19:33):
a hospital, which it should be safe in a hospital, right,
But I just I want to educate people on like
the options that they have, like go into a birthing center.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Well, to start off, I think that the unfortunate thing
is is that we're lacking in the options. One of
the things that Bruce had mentioned is there are a
couple of birth centers throughout New York State, and that's
what we're hopefully working to change. One of the things
that I like to point out is that a lot
(20:04):
of the other high populous states throughout the United States
have so many birth centers, thirty to seventy birth centers,
and New York only has a couple and so while
we want that to be an option, we are how
do we say, flying a plane as we build it.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
This is not something.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
That's very accessible to us, and it's not a pathway
that has existed very well. So we had to work
very hard to change legislation, and even in that that
legislation is needs improvement. And so we are, let's say,
in a challenged position where we're working with non ideal legislation.
(20:49):
So but what we do have is a good situation
with the doctor Carla Williams, who's an obgyn who has
herself abowed down to midwiffery, had out of hospital births,
and she'll tell you more about herself. But one of
the things that we're doing is working with the physician
led model while we simultaneously fight to create midware free
(21:13):
lead models for care. So that is in the making.
And so let's just speak in a future tense that
I can visualize because I know it's reach. So the
options that more New Yorkers will have will be hospital
birth if they fall in that category of needing care
in a hospital sent a setting, or wanting care in
(21:36):
a hospital setting. That's a prerogative. It's an option of care,
and people will also have options for care in a
birth center where it's a happy medium between a hospital
setting and a home birth setting. So it's not an
individual's home, it's a center where it's built like a home,
(21:58):
yet we have all of the measures within the center,
like the resuscitation station, like the petocin, like the methogen,
like the oxygen, like all of the things that are
potentially helpful for birth, post birth, excuse me, labor. So
(22:18):
these are what we believe will be a greater option
and that midwives, more midwives of color, let's name, that
will be in these settings and working collaboratively with obgyns.
We're seeing envisioning not just CNMs that are currently licensed
(22:39):
midwives here in New York State, but CPMs, certified professional
midwives who are able to have had the apprenticeship model
of care, who have nurtured their educational process with lots
of experience of out of hospital birth, who are the
experts of out of hospital birth, that they'll also be
(22:59):
licensed here and working in collaboration with the CNMs, with
the obi's and together the birth centers will collaborate with
hospitals and hospitals will ideally be a place where we
can safely transfer, where we can communicate with their attendings
and say, hey, there's a person who wants an epidural,
We're going to send them over, and they will look
(23:22):
at us also as professional, legitimate place that is not
just like lighting a candle and having a baby in
some dark place, Like we're legitimate providers that will also
be integrated into our healthcare system.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, that was you bring up a great point. I
wanted to ask you both your perspective on that. Do
you feel that because where we are statistically with what's
going on with the Black maternal health crisis, that the
provider community is more or less embracing the integration of
doulahs and midwives as part of the system of care.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
So I think that things are maybe slightly getting better
in that department where the reception is a little bit better,
but there's there's so much work that has to be done.
And just like Bruce mentioned and Mala mentioned, that system
where there's that integration, where we're all working together, where
there's that collaboration, it's necessary and it's evident, you know,
(24:19):
because we do have evidence that in other industrialized countries,
this is the model that works. This is the model
that saves people, where saves women, you know, where where
midwives are taking care of you know, low risk pregnant
women which are the majority, and and Obi's obgyns are
stepping in and doing their job, which is much you know,
which is necessary as well, but when it's needed, you know,
(24:41):
when there's when there's an indication for it, and so
definitely the work.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Of the doulas.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
You know, there's there's a lot that needs to be
done in order for the providers in the hospital to
be more open and to understand what the role of
doulas is and how they help. There's evidence on that
as well on how you know, pregnancies are much better
and the outcomes are much better in terms of labor
and delivery and just experience, because that's also so important,
(25:10):
the experience that women are having during their labor and birth.
It's not just having a live baby and a live
mother at the end, but actually having an empowering and
joyous experience.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Mila, you were sharing before we started the podcast about
the scene in the documentary where there was like this
vision or they were showing the land right of projected
birthing center or what the future of birthing centers could
look like could you kind of share a little bit
about that moment in the documentary and like how you
(25:42):
feel now that you've seen a lot of this starting
to come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Sure, Yeah, it's very inspiring. I love living in a
space of envisioning what's possible, and that part of the
documentary was exciting because it was one of the first
times we had actually visited did that prospective place. While
that space is still available to us for a ground
(26:07):
up build, that's a much higher further reach and we
want access now. We have been working way too hard
to be waiting for money to come our way. We
have found ways through our community, through each other, through
(26:27):
different sacrifices, to figure out how do we reach our
community more immediately, and so part of what we did
was we created the Wombbus, which is a mobile wellness
hub that goes to various places throughout the Bronx to
bring some of these resources more closely to individuals who
(26:48):
are seeking them. So that may be education, outreach resources
like re acupuncture, knowing which of our community providers are
willing to be wonderfully generous with their expertise and so
we're excited that now we've because that launched in twenty
twenty two, and just last month we were able to
(27:12):
launch Mariam Reproductive Health and Wellness Clinic in the Norwood
area of the Bronx and we have put together such
a dope group of people who are really invested, deeply invested,
have personal reasons why they want to be a part
of this movement, from pelvic floor therapists, mental health therapist,
(27:35):
lactation consultants all within that vicinity, and we're working together
to be solution oriented, to be innovators, and we can
say we can reach people before we're catching their babies.
We can say, how do we impact their journey? How
do we improve these outcomes and experiences because someone's just
(27:57):
eating better or having somebody to talk talk to. These
are the holistic concepts that we don't get enough of
preparinatal care, and so we're going to provide that now
and we hope to show our impact even though we
know that it's impactful that we imagine will lead to
(28:20):
the more rapid build of the movement that we want,
which is birth centers now.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right, that's great, Doctor Williams, I have a question for
you in terms of that, like the provider patient relationship, right, Like,
where do you see that progressing too? I guess in
a positive space where you know, women feel like they
have more of a connection to their provider and what
that can transition to in terms of having a better
(28:49):
positive outcome in communities of color.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
I think that the first step, at least with the
providers is that they're becoming a little bit more open
to just live, you know, because you can get a
lot from just listening, because many providers are just are
just you know, have been quick to you know, adopt
that that form of you know, I know this, this
is my profession, you know, very paternalistic and just telling
(29:16):
the patient what they believe is, you know, the best
thing for them. But thankfully, I feel like there's been
a softening of that and providers are beginning to understand
that the patient is autonomous. The patient has the right
to express what they desire to Your obligation is to
give them adequate, informed consent. You explain what their options are,
(29:40):
but at the end of the day, you need to
respect the patient's desires and and you know what they're
whatever decision it is that they make, as long as
they're informed, and you provided the correct information. It's up
to them. So I feel like a lot of light
has been shed on in that area. And you know,
thanks to social media and TikTok and all the things,
(30:01):
you know, people are are learning a lot and just
becoming more aware of the need to simply listen.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, and it's evolving into a very connective community. Like
I omri. I see all the stuff that you know
you're doing on social media. I see your recent partnership
with March of Dimes. So can you tell me a
little bit about what you've been doing and how you've
been working with them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Of course, big up to Marshal Dimes. Yes, big up
some Marshal Dimes. We need more money. But you know,
I love them. They they're creating a lot of different
in initiatives for us to be able to tell our
story and and creating space for it to happen.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
March of Dimes obviously is a huge organization. They have
tons of reach, they have millions of people that they service,
you know, So it's just it's you know, humbling to
be able to really co create with them, you know.
So what they did when we created an activation around,
you know, just health equity, and they helped me tell
excuse me. They allowed me to the space to tell
my story of art and and my In Her Honor series.
(31:05):
So the in Her Honor Series was created pretty much
as an old to Shamani. I have a thousand painters
I painted as Shamani, and it was she wanted a
thousand and one, so I created that next one. But
then that started turning into hearing her tell me, all right,
create one of Amber for Bruce, and then create one
of care for Charles, and then create one of Shai
Ajah Washington, and create one a shrip Rockadema. And I
(31:28):
started just painting pictures for family members, not one not
to just do it. The main thing was to make
sure that I created connections with these families because it's
a lot. It's a different experience for me to just say, hey, condolencism,
sorry for your loss. If if you need somebody to
talk to, I'm here, as opposed to actually giving something
(31:50):
that honors there. You know, they're like Bruce said, they're martyrs,
you know, and giving something that they can you know,
hang in their house and look at every day and
really understand then and know that the person who painted
that understands what I'm going through and that there is
a community out there for them. Sure, and they allow
me to marshial doms, allow me to tell that story,
(32:10):
you know. So they took a bunch of my paintings
and you know, we did a whole activation around it,
and it was dope because, you know, it gives a
chance for those women and those men and those families
who don't necessarily have the opportunity to be on platforms
like this, have the opportunity to partner or are just
not because you have to be in a certain I
don't know, we're obviously delusional and crazy to even just
(32:34):
be able to suffer these losses, see this happening on
a daily basis, and still really getting out there and
pushing this initiative because it's a lot, you know, and
some people are just not in that just don't have
that self exactly, just not built for that, you know.
So it gave us an opportunity to be able to
(32:55):
tell their story and making sure that their you know,
mother's daughters, sisters, aunts, you know, are are their names
are being said, you know, and they're being honored and
people know that this is not just number two hundred
and eighty seven and five hundred and thirty three and
six hundred and eighty one who passed away this year.
These are real women with real families, with real you know,
(33:18):
who are pillas in their own community, in their own right,
you know. And March of Dimes, you know, so thank you,
Thank you for that. March adn to look forward to
create co creating things with you in the future. They've
also sponsored a lot of our events too, you know,
so they know that, you know, it's important to really
connect with people who have boots in the ground, who
are really doing work in the community.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That's great, that's great. They've been a great supporter of
this platform as well, and we're able to do the
work because of them. So I appreciate you mentioning that
and them because they're important to the cause.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
That's really so when you take a look at you know,
how someone processes pain and repurposes pain. Right, what it
would you give to a father who might find themselves
recently in the same position that you found yourselves in
not too long ago, I.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
Would say to really not you know, beat yourself up
too much. I found myself really beating myself up, trying
to trying to figure out how things could have went differently,
or yeah, just how things you know, could have ended up,
always wishing that I could have did something else or
(34:32):
paid attention to something else.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
But at the end of the day, you know, that
doesn't really change you.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Because we are left, you know, to put these women's
hands in the hand or put these women in the
hands of the providers where growing up we're.
Speaker 7 (34:45):
Told that that's the safe place.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
And so my my thing to man, I'll tell them
every day like it's it's gonna get hard, it's not easy.
It's something that we're constantly going to have to cope
with and live with throughout the rest of our lives.
But really honoring your partner is the best way that
you can really uplift their name and honor them. You know,
(35:09):
I wake up every day doing everything that I can
to to honor my partner. She had so much to
give to this earth that you know she was she
was cut short from and I tell people all the time,
like Amber, Amber had a had a stronger voice than
I did.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
You know, she was really vocal. She was the one who.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Had, you know, the true power and and I was
lucky enough to experience that and have some of that
power rub duff on me. She was someone who constantly
uplifted me and.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
Empowered me to be my best self.
Speaker 6 (35:40):
So even after her passing, I hear her, you know,
in my ear telling them I could do things I could,
I could do better, or if I'm feeling down, I
know that you know she's she's she's trying to lift
me up in ways. So really, you know, always trying
to keep that in mind. Also, you know, with when
you're when you're left with a child as a widow
as well, you want to do your best to try
(36:01):
to still honor that co parenting method as well, because
the you know, even though they're gone physically, they're still
there spiritually, and you know, you want to instill some
of that those those qualities into your child and just
you know, really keep your head up and keep going
and do everything that you can to honor your partner,
(36:22):
and that's going to make you feel ten times more better.
Speaker 7 (36:27):
I don't know, I don't know where I would be
or what I would be.
Speaker 6 (36:30):
Doing if I if I wasn't uplifting her name and
you know, feeling the power of being vulnerable, turning your
pain into power. Me as a as an introvert, As
an introvert, it was it was difficult for me to
have to transition into an extrovert, you know, speaking and
you know, sure, but but yeah, just just uplifting their
(36:51):
name and making sure that you're you're waking up every day,
you're looking at your child and doing everything that you
can to give them the best life that they can have.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, I'm glad that you started with that, Bruce.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
You know, I was so.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I said this once in my men's group, and because
I said it there, I'm able I can say it now.
But you know, when Shamani passed, you know, we moved together.
When we moved in together, I think she was about
twenty seven or twenty eight, you know, and then she
passed when she was thirty.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
And I was big on my mind in terms of.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Like that, like your mother protected you for twenty eight years,
and then you came and lived with me as a man,
and I didn't do my job, and you know, you
lost your life within the two three years that we
were together, you know, and that really that really hurt me,
and it really sat deep in me. But I made
(37:43):
sure that that wasn't what the focus was because again,
you know, like you said, you know, you put your
you know, then ten in the hands of the provider
because you know, you think that they are their professionals,
and we thought that we would cover, you know. So
I would say also too that you know, for men,
it's a journey at this point, Bruce, I and all
(38:03):
the other men that I've actually spoke to who have
had suffered loss in this way, I've had to change
their whole entire life, change the trajectory.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Of their whole entire life. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So that means that you have to do things differently.
There's no way that you can really be effective as
a father, as somebody who's grieving, as somebody who suffered
through trauma and still think that you're going to be
able to just up and be fine just like that,
you know.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
So it is a journey.
Speaker 7 (38:31):
For me.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's this mental, mental, spiritual and physical journey.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So I get up and I work out every day.
Not because it's the summertime and I want to look
good for the summer, that's not it. I want to
look good for my sixties.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
It's some vanity, but at the same time, what it
really is is the understanding that as my body changes,
my mind changes. As my mind changes, my emotional capacity
has changed, you know, and I'm able to now be
able to have those conversations with myself first, to really
be able to figure out how am I going to
get through this day, even though I am upset, and
(39:05):
even though I wish my partner was here, and even
though I don't want to cook the dinner, do the dishes,
do the laundry, break the kids up, put them to bed.
I don't want to do that though by myself, you know.
But at the same time, it's needed, and it's purpose driven,
and I'm physically, mentally and spiritually making sure that I
can do this on a daily basis. So I think
(39:26):
that one that's like a shift that really needs to
happen for men at this but also to double down
that you have to have a community, you have to
have to have There's no way in heck that any
of us could do this without the support of the
people that are around us to allow us to be
in this space to know that my children are find
and I can go out and speak, or I can
go out and do the things that I need to
(39:47):
as a provider and bring what I need to bring
home to my family. There's no, no, no way you
can do it without community. And then to even triple
down on that, to have a community of men to
have this conversation with, to be able to have that
support system with.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I know too many.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Men who don't have elders in their life, who don't
understand the importance of having conversations with elders or the youth,
you know, so they're out here. I don't want to
say headless, but doing things as an individual. You cannot
create a life of fulfillment without people around you. And
a man cannot learn how to become a man without
(40:24):
men who have had the experiences of going through this
world as a man, as an adult man, you know.
So I think that all of those things kind of
rolled into one is something that you know, men really
need to start seeking out.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, you make a valid point in terms of that
protective provider mentality that men have. How you automatically take
that on right regardless of what happens to us, Like
you're innate to automatically take that on, which is I
think it's God given right. But also being able to
process in that way where you not living in a
(41:01):
state of blame and condemnation, because there are certain things
that are just out of our control, right and that
that we can't we can't always manage. Right. So in closing,
if I had to ask you both to articulate the
legacy of Amber and Shamani, what would you say?
Speaker 6 (41:23):
I mean, Amber was of course shut, you know, cut
short of you know, her life. So a month, a
month after she passed away. As omar I mentioned before too,
how he had to bury Shamani on his birthday, I
also had to bury Amber on my birthday and that
was the only available date that was there, and that's
(41:45):
how we actually ended up connecting. But a month after
she passed away, she should have been walking on stage
with my son in arms receiving her master's degree.
Speaker 7 (41:57):
You know, she wanted to. She was earning her master's
in business development.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Worked really hard for that throughout her pregnancy. You know,
she was a very strong, motivated, goal oriented person. I
have so much love and respect for her and everything
that she's accomplished and was set to accomplish. And but yeah,
she should have been walking with my son in arms
earning her master's degree.
Speaker 7 (42:20):
We're talking about a woman who wanted.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
To create extracurriculum activities for for children. She had a
strong passion for the youth, and she also wanted to
help out the community, the fathers, the mothers of the
of the community. She eventually wanted to open her own school.
So she just had so much to bring the community.
And and what I think the legacy of Amber is
(42:45):
she She's already out here saving millions of lives just
by you know, telling her story and uplifting her name,
but also these tangible changes that are that are being done,
like such as the birthing sense.
Speaker 7 (43:01):
I think that would be the biggest way that we.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
Can honor Amber is by creating this birthing center so
we can create better birthing outcomes for everyone else, because
I don't want, you know, what happened to me to
happen to anybody else, especially if it's one hundred preventable, right,
And yeah, So just creating that that legacy for her,
I think has been the major goal for me. I
(43:24):
think once the birthing center is up and we have
everything for the set for that, I'll be able to
like sit down and really breathe and really sit back
and say that we did it in the name of Amber.
But that's you know, what keeps me going every day,
what wakes me up, keeps me motivated. Knowing that we're
creating these tangible changes in her honor and knowing that
(43:45):
that legacy is going to be forever.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Yeah for me.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
You know, Shamani, we were like any other couple.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
We had our problems. You had our issues in our relationships.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
She got on my nerves all the time, you know,
and I think that that's how I'm gonna make sure
I honor her. She's always in my ear about stuff
that I need to do better and I shouldn't be
doing or could be doing this, or not thinking about
this person. And you know, that is always ringing in
my ear with her, and it shows up not just
with me, but throughout the entire family. You know, Shamani
(44:17):
was an artist. So she was a dancer, she was
a hairstylist, she was an entrepreneur. She had her own
business when she was fourteen.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
So we created our full living together and Aria Foundation
is essentially our full living two point zero.
Speaker 4 (44:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I bring that up because for me, the only reason
why she told me that she wanted to be with
me is because I created art and because of she
saw how I.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Treated my son.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
You know, we used to work together, so we had
that experience together. So you know, I'm just making sure
that again I'm always doing that. I'm making sure that
one with this business that we co created together is
gonna thrive. These children that we co created together are.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Gonna thrive, you know.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
And I'm gonna make sure that I do my part
in this maternal health space to honor her as well
as making sure that because I know she's in her
mother and her sister's there all the time as well,
making sure that we're all three of us specifically are
covered in order to and I'm supporting them in the
best way that i can in order to help redirect
(45:16):
birthing outcomes. Because just the same way that she's orchestrating
stuff down here, I know that she's connecting with all
the other women who have suffered losses in the same
way up in the spiritual realm to make sure that
we are all covered and we're able to do this
and nothing is going to block the initiatives that we
all have set for and intentions excuse me intentions that
(45:36):
we all have set for each other, you know, So
I'm just running the play, that's all.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, So anything coming up that we should know about
that you're working on in the space that you would
like to promote or in how can people connect with
you and get in contact with you if they want
to work with you?
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 6 (45:54):
So we can be connected with at www Dot Savor
rules Foundation dot org where you can reach out to
me directly at Bruce dot McIntyre at Save Rohsfoundation dot org.
Also a thing that we have been actually been working
on is I do a lot in policy work as well,
and right now we're still trying to pass the Grieving
Families Act. And the Grieving Families Act actually passed twice
(46:18):
unanimously through the Senate.
Speaker 7 (46:21):
However, it's been vetoed by Governor Hockel twice.
Speaker 6 (46:24):
And so what the Grieving Family Act does is it
creates what I think, you know, accountability for the hospitals
and a safety net for families. So whenever your you know, spouse,
your partner passes away, the system likes to just think
of them they're as good as their last job, versus
with you know, the grieving Families Act. It allows you
(46:46):
to sue for grief and anguish as well. And so
this this bill has actually been in place for one
hundred and seventy seven years. It has not kept black
people in mind at all, and so we're trying to
you know, it's very important that we try to get
this this Grieving Families Act passed so we can really
(47:08):
create accountability, create accountability exactly. And also if you haven't already,
please download the Earth app, which is a Yelp like
review where women, fathers, supporting partners can leave reviews on hospitals,
can leave reviews on their doctors, their obgu i ns
and it's you know, it's also very important that we
(47:29):
collect and build that data where you know, it's a
space where black women are feeling feel hurt, where they
can you know, leave these reviews on these hospitals. And
there's also a feature on there as well called Amber's Rose.
So anytime or mortality happens in a hospital, a little
purple roles indication will pop up for Amber's Rose, indicating
that there was a maternal loss in the hospital.
Speaker 7 (47:53):
So please download the Earth app. It's I R T H.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
We dropped the b for bias the Earth app Please
down low that at your at your playstory.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
Big up to Kimberly Seals. Definitely, big up to.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
Kimberly Steals dollars.
Speaker 6 (48:05):
There was actually she was actually awarded in the proclamation
that April eleventh will now be noticed in New York
as Earth Day.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So for us, you can reach us at ww dot
Theria Foundation dot org. On Instagram, It's the Aria Foundation
my Instagram. You can just find me O Mari Maynard.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
What we have.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Coming up is, well, we just finished a series. What
we basically did was did it in Bongie and then
in Bongie is it's very basically a virtual trial and
dramatization to put doctor j Marin Sims on trial for
the atrocities that he did to the mothers of gynecology.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
And that was super dope. It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
We had over five hundred people in virtual space attend
to attend it. The next thing that we have coming
up is the week before Mother's Day, which is called
the Postpartum Awareness Week. Now, we lose most of our mothers,
our children in the postpartum period, you know, so we
want to make sure that you know people understand that
and they understand all the things that you know are
(49:13):
needed in order for the postpartum experience to be what
it is, you know. So we're doing covering everything postpartum.
It's a virtual session. It's absolutely free. You can attend
by registering up at our website or you can again
go to our IG page and find that information there.
And you know, we're using again the tools ways to
(49:34):
innovate in order to make sure that you know, people
understand the information so that we can all redirect birthing
outcomes collectively.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
So please please please.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Postpartum Awareness Week register today and watch our documentary on
Hulu called Aftershock.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yes, yes, ladies or anything you want to add places
people can connect with you more about the birthing centers.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Yeah, thank you for asking. I would say follow us
on IG as well Birthing Place BX, welcome to marry them.
These are our two IG handles and we definitely hope
people can contribute whatever they can towards our capital campaign
we are launching in this next couple weeks and want
(50:23):
people to be involved spreading the word, also hosting whatever gathering.
They're already planning to host a dinner a Mother's Day
dinner is something coming up for somebody. But whatever spheres
of influence people have that they may be willing to
spend a few minutes sharing about the issue. We have
(50:43):
informational handout that people can share with links to support
us and to just get involved. So that's one thing,
and another is we are working in partnership with Birth Fund.
They just launched a really great program where it's a
(51:06):
family oriented solution where families are sponsoring other families to
get care that they wouldn't otherwise receive. And so we've
become a trusted partner here in New York with this
wonderful organization and we see it becoming very impactful, and
we would love people to just know about them, support
what's happening there, because that has not just the potential
(51:29):
to impact the individuals who are going to receive care
that they wouldn't otherwise be able to, but it has
a lot of opportunity for policy change as well and
shift how insurance works where people can't access some of
the care even if they want it and seek it
and have the option within their state, which that in
(51:50):
and of itself needs to improve, But even when it's
accessible it has a lot of out of pocket costs
and that's not fair, right, So follow birth fund is well, wonderful, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Anything you want to add, No.
Speaker 5 (52:04):
We're just excited about this chapter where you know, we've
already described how we you know, met several years ago.
We were so happy to just have the wound us
then move on to our clinic that's opened now in
the Bronx and working uh hard towards building the birth center.
So we appreciate everyone's support.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Awesome, Well, thank you all for being here. I'm maternal,
sharing your stories and just supporting the space and just
being a great resource, right you know, that's one of
the things that's super important for us, for this platform
in general. It's just that we continue to build this
community and we continue to support and build one another up.
So I appreciate you all for coming here today and
(52:44):
sharing your insight.
Speaker 7 (52:45):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
We appreciate you so much for creating this space and
making sure that this conversation is happening on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.
I appreciate you, and you'll hopefully come back and continue
to update us on all your good work, okay, awesome, good,
Or you're listening to Me Eternal on iHeartRadio home to
access to information for mothers of color, and I'm Kenya Gibson.
Until next time,
You know, it's been wonderful to connect with you from
the jump of all of this because you know, both
of you and Bruce have had some pretty traumatic experiences
in this space, and this is why we wanted to
have a dedicated platform to be able to tell stories
like yourselves.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Sure, yeah, that storytelling pieces super It's big just for
the simple fact that you know, if you're really telling
your story, then it's super personal, you know, and when
you're doing personal things like that, you're able to I mean,
of course engage in touch and feel people. But at
the same time, like the biggest thing for me, just
for us our relationship is like just being open and
(00:39):
honest with each other and having our personal stories be
the catalyst that allows us to enter in each other's lives. Right, So,
like I did the podcast, but you also came to
the art show, right, you know, we did we did
events together. You know, we see each other in spaces
and like stuff like that makes coming here easier and
makes the work more digestible, you know. And you know,
(01:04):
just knowing that, you know, when I'm out there and
I'm feeling like crap because I don't want to do
this anymore. Same with Bruce called a mile. I'm sure
you know we all have those times. But just to
know that there's other people champion you and wanting you
to win, and you know, and doing the work as
well in their own way, you know, it's super important,
you know, and that it helps.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, it's a movement. It's a movement.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I know we've heard a lot about your story, but
I just for people who have not heard of your
story or not familiar, I want to tap into that
a little quickly before we get to Bruce, because I
know initially we connected off of the documentary and you
were you know, you've gone through a lot of stuff,
you know, and you've been pretty triumphant through your artwork,
through your running, through your family, through your children. So
(01:52):
I want you to share a little bit about your
journey and how you got to this space.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I also didn't know who were rolling We are all right, great.
So my name is Omari Maynard. I am the co
founder of the ARIA Foundation. ARIA stands for the advance
of the Reproductive Innovation through ardustry and Healing. My partner,
Shamani Gibson, she passed away October sixth, twenty nineteen, giving
birth to our second child, and in that time frame,
(02:19):
a lot of things were going on. My birthday was
five days after she passed. We ended up having to
bury her on my birthday. I was going through so
many feelings issues. She was healthy, vibrant, thirty years old.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Young.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
We were planning on having at home birth, having a
v back, which is vaginal birth after C section, and
you know, we recovered, the community, knew what we were doing,
We had a birth plan, we had you know, connections
with the hospital that we ended up having to go to,
you know, so we didn't feel in any way, shape
or form like we were going to be on this
(02:55):
other side of this maternal health story.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Fortunately, you know, through even though we had all the resources,
we had, all the information, we had community, we had
a plan. You know, we still and she still was
not listened to. After she had our child, she ended
up having sharp chest pains, you know, all the signs
of there possibly being a blood clot and this is
(03:20):
what we told them. Doctors didn't listen to us. And again,
thirteen days after you know, she came home and gave
birth to our son, she ended up passing away. I
think that you know, our story just from you know,
my point of view, from a partner's point of view,
is is not a story that's always told, you know. Unfortunately,
(03:43):
the maternal health crisis is something that is an epidemic.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
It's a crisis, is an epidemic.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
You know, women, Black women specifically are four times more
likely to pass away than their white counterparts, you know,
And when we have this conversation, of course, it's devastated,
you know.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But you know, when we think about it.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
There's a partner who's left behind with you know, children
hopefully you know, or going through the loss of the
mother and child, because infant mortality is just as bad
as you know, maternal mortality, but it's not necessarily a
story that you really hear about, you know. So having
me up here just thank you so much. Thank you
for always checking in on me, always covering me, always
(04:21):
making sure that I'm well, my children are well, you know,
And it's stuff like that that allows for the space
for me to be able to do this activist work
and create community for men, create artwork around maternal health
and just art work in general to help tell our
with stories and making sure that people understand that these
women who are passing away one are super important to
(04:43):
the community. They're pillars in their own rights, you know.
And also too that you know we are creating as
touching in excuse me, touching as many people as we
can within this maternal health community to bring each other
closer so that we can all move in one accord
to redirect birth and outcomes.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, And it's super important that you know you're the
voices for them now, right. And I think that that's
commendable because there's not a lot of representation of men
in this space.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
So I guess my question to both you would be like,
what do you think the future of Black maternal health
looks like through the eyes of a man? Right, Because
it's like, this is happening to women, but at the
same you know, breath, it's it's also happening to you
as a partner.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Definitely.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
I think men have grown to want to educate themselves
on reproductive health. I'm starting to speak to high schoolers,
high school teenage boys who are interested in maternal health
and reproductive health, wanting to be a better, better partner
to their to their spouse. I'm seeing more men be
(05:48):
engaged with like Black Maternal Health Week or anything that's
black manternal health related to show that men have always
been here, men have wanted to be here, but we've
had that stigma that's been played based on us for
such a long time that you know, men don't want
to be around me and don't want to take care
of their kids, when that's not true. The CDC actually
dropped dropped us some statistics that showed that Black men,
(06:12):
whether they live in the household or not, they're the
most engaged with their children more than anybody else. So
I think that speaks, you know, power to to what
men are trying to bring into the maternal health space.
You know, we're wanting to advocate for women. Unfortunately, we
live in a world where where women just aren't being heard,
women aren't being listened to, and for some reason, men
(06:36):
are just being heard more. And I feel like that's
something that we need to change because these women are
screaming to the top of their lungs that we need change,
and we want to make sure that we're here to
support them, support our women, uplift our women, and let them.
Speaker 7 (06:50):
Know that we're here.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Now. You and Omari met through the making of the documentary.
Is that how that worked? Out or you knew each
other before that.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
So we actually met each other right right before the
documentary at the time Omar, I believe he was already filming,
and right after my partner passed away. Of course, I
jumped straight into advocacy work. But you know, I was.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
I was lost. I was really looking for help.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I was really looking for support, and like speaking to
best friends that I grew up with for twenty plus years,
they just didn't understand what I was going through.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
You know, all you hear is, well, you know, we're
sorry for your loss.
Speaker 6 (07:28):
That's really all all that they can give you because
they haven't lived out that experience. And I remember when
o'mary called me and told me his story and his situation.
You know, the first time meeting each other, Me and
Omari were on the phone for like three hours just
talking about everything that happened. You know how we're feeling
really being vulnerable with each other. So we can, you know,
(07:50):
figure out how we can come together to make a change.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
What support systems are in place for men that go
through these type of situations.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Oh yeah, so I'm glad you asked that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So we're creating and innovating, right We are at a
point in this time frame where you know, we're understanding.
Because when me and Bruce both came into this space,
I knew there was an organization, there was something that
men were like, we're doing this and we're charging ourselves
(08:24):
to create this change within the maternal health space. But
there really wasn't at all. It was like a pockets
of men, you know, doing their own kind of separate thing,
you know, and you know, fast forward four or five
years later, I see a lot more men, a lot
more faces, you know, at these conferences.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You know, using their own men's group.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Platforms to have conversations around maternal health. But what I
decided to do was create a virtual experience. So we
I have a collective called the luxe Or Collective, and
the lux Or Collective is basically was basically created because
of Shamani Gibson. You know, it's a space where men
(09:05):
who have suffered loss from maternal health have a chance
to get together virtually every other Thursday, seven thirty to
nine pm just have conversation.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Sometimes it's around you know, healthcare and you know, but
a lot of it is around just issues that we
are dealing with as black men. In America, the traumas,
the griefs and you know, the stigmas, and having a
space to just have a have conversation with other men.
And you know, it's super dope because of the fact
that you know, like so it just kind of rewinds
(09:37):
a little bit. Shaanie Gibson, Shamani's mother, has been in
the maternal health space for decades, so she already has
the established community of midwives, duelers for professionals in the
space who understand the importance of having a men's group.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So the therapist Shamania and I used to go to,
he comes to the men's group with me, Shaany's best friend,
who is also a grief counselor helped me through my
whole you know, traumatic process. He comes to the men's group.
We have men who have our pillars in their own right,
have their own men's organizations. They come with doctor Willie Parker,
(10:12):
who's a black will be gyn located in Texas. He
comes to the men's group, you know, and it's super
It's amazing because it's in a generational conversation. So we
have men who are seventy, we have men who are twenty,
you know, we're really talking to each other on the
same level, but about issues that black men are dealing with,
specifically black men who've suffered from trauma due to whatever
(10:33):
health care issue, whether it be maternal health excuse me,
maternal mortality, infant mortality, releasing pregnancies, you know, abortions, losing
their partner to cancer, any and everything. You know, we
have a space where we are able to fellowship every
other week and just release. And Bruce said, you know,
(10:54):
there's conversations, there are things that you want answers to,
but you don't even know how to act other people sometimes, right,
because it's so sensitive, you know. But in this space,
you know what's open for that, you know. So I
love it. I mean, I'm organizing it. But at the
same time, it's my therapy every other week, you know.
So you've been doing it for a year and a
half and it's thriving.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I mean, men grieve much differently than women, right, And
you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel
like men suppress a lot of things, Like you're not
as emotional as we are in terms of like expressing
your feelings and so on and so forth. And which
brings me to you had come to support us at
the Mental Wealth Expo a couple of years ago. You
had brought your children out and we did this kind
(11:35):
of roundtable panel discussion about the after effects of dealing
with loss, and I was so blown away by the
vulnerability that was in the room, especially men were involved
in terms of like sharing their emotions and sharing like
where they were in the emotional space. So I would
love to see that come to the forefront more often
because it's needed right And you know, I think about
(11:58):
stories such as yourself, you know, in terms of your
loss and like what you had to deal with, you know,
as far as you know grieving your partner. Is there
anything now when you look back on that experience that
you would say would have maybe helped you had a
resource been in place to cope better, to to create
(12:18):
a better outlet for yourself. I mean, I know it's unexpected,
but I just be curious to know how you think
anything might have helped you moving forward or had it
been in place.
Speaker 6 (12:29):
I mean, I don't think anything would have really helped
at that time, other than I really wish we would
have sought out a midwife from the very beginning. I
feel like that that really would have would have helped,
and that really would have saved her life.
Speaker 7 (12:48):
But I also wish that.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, like as mentioned there, there's not as many you know,
programs or systems that are out here dedicated for grieving fathers.
After Amber passed away, I was, you know, searching for
a group, searching for counseling, searching to heal. And I
just remember the hospital was trying to the hospital where
my fiance passed away at they were trying to offer
(13:12):
us therapy, and you know, Amber's mother and I were
speaking to this therapist and without even giving us the
proper evaluations, she was so quick to throw drugs in
her face, like xanax another stronger anti depressants. And I
often see that in black and brown communities where these
perpetuated cycles damaged communities. You know, you gain an addiction
(13:37):
to these drugs, you're left incompetent to take care of
your child.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
And that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
You know, how am I supposed to take care of
my newborn son who just left, who just lost his
mother If I'm doped up on drugs and I'm left
incompetent to take care of him. Then you have to
worry about child protective services and that just becomes a
whole other animal that you have to fight. And so
the midwives and doulas that I had been working with
towards the end of Amber's pregnancy or during my advocacy work,
(14:03):
because I jumped into advocacy immediately, they were the ones
who really offered me the support, the guidance and the help,
you know, like they would set me up.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
They set me up with a.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
Grief counselor where I was able to find holistic healing.
I was able to discover different meditations, koreas, breathing exercises
for anxiety, you know, and I always had somebody that
I could talk to and I know that they were listening.
Speaker 7 (14:29):
The doulas.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
You know, Amber was one of the most healthiest people
I've ever known of my life, and she held a
strict pascatarian diet up until she became pregnant, and she
held a vegan diet. So I wanted to I wanted
my son to receive the same vitamins and nutrients that
he was receiving for his mother while he was in
the womb. And you know, speaking to a doula. They
set me up with a lactation consultant. I partnered with
(14:52):
the lactation consultants. They paired me with donors who matched
Amber's dietary restrictions, and so my son Elias was able
to still receive those same vitamins and nutrients. So I
wish we would have we would have seeked out a
midwife and do it at the very beginning, because I
really feel like they would have been attentive to her
(15:13):
needs and tailor her needs and she would be here.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, how are you coping as a dad now? Like,
how are things for you?
Speaker 7 (15:20):
I mean, it's it's one day at a time. You know,
it's tough. It comes in waves.
Speaker 6 (15:26):
But I you know, realize the more busy we are
and the more that we're starting to see, you know,
in these these outcomes, we're starting to see more of
these uncomfortable discussions being had. We're reaching out to millions
of people, and you know, I like to think it
as you know, our our partners are a martyr for
change and they're saving the lives of millions, and that's
(15:49):
what brings me healing. Advocating for others and knowing that
this work and that their names aren't going in.
Speaker 7 (15:56):
Vain is what brings healing to me in the community.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, and it's brought you into this space because I
know you have some birthing centers that you're working on,
and you're working on some real time solutions that are
going to help the community. We have a lot of
conversations on this podcast about maternal health deserts, right and
how vast they are and how there's like no one
size fits all to them. But I was so excited
(16:20):
to hear about like the solution that you're bringing to
the community in terms of solving that.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
So other developed nations around the world, they have midwives
and doulas, and with those midwives and doulas, they are
creating better birthing outcomes. And so that's something that I
truly believe and I do believe in that model of
care where you're being taken care of before, during, after childbirth,
and throughout the postpart and period. I really think that's
(16:46):
how we, you know, curve and preserve mental health. And
you know, so I back back when we were doing
this work, I was trying to switch over to a
midwife while we knew that Amber was being neglected so
long and dealing with incompetent doctors that we didn't want
to deal with anymore. And so I took it upon
(17:07):
myself because Amber made sure I was always included in
the birthing, the birthing journey, the birthing experience, and so
I was the one who actually found our midwife. I
interviewed our midwife, introduced her, and she loved it. She
loved our midwife, and so, you know, of course, we
(17:27):
you know, due to her being so high risk at
that point, we had to go back to the hospital.
We weren't able to attend due to the negligence. Of course,
we weren't able to attend a birth center. We weren't
able to have a home birth, so we had to
go back into the medical system. And so after her passing,
of course, I started to looking to birthing centers and
(17:51):
what birthing centers do, what midwives do, and just realizing
the importance of birthing centers and why it's needed. You know,
I personally don't feel like you should be birthing in
a hospital if you're not high risk. I believe you
should be birthing in a birthing center. Where where these
women are being attentive to your needs and they're taking
care of you.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
And then I.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
Realized at the time, we only had two birthing centers
in New York. We had we had one in Brooklyn,
and then we had another one upstate. So there were,
you know, women who were driving four to five hours
to get upstate just to give birth, and we shouldn't
be doing that.
Speaker 7 (18:30):
It is dangerous.
Speaker 6 (18:31):
We should be so we should definitely have one in
the city. And in the Bronx we are seeing the
highest mortality and morbidity rates as well, So it's we're
in dire need of a birthing censor. And that's so
back in twenty twenty when I was doing this work,
I was partnering with the midwife who helped us. She
introduced me to my La Flores and doctor Carlo Williams
(18:52):
and and was letting me know that they're also fighting
for a birth center in the Bronx. And that's when
we joined our efforts together. And now we're creating this change.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Which is crazy because you think about New York City
and how big it is, and you think about the
Bronx and it's like the fact that you're saying we
had to fight for a birthing center. It's just that
blows my mind.
Speaker 7 (19:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, So we have actually both of these young ladies
here with us today who are your partners, and you know,
I'm excited to hear from you both because I think
what's important to this platform is that people know the
difference between the options and the benefits that a birthing
center offers versus going into the hospital system, right because
I think we're given that narrative that it's safe in
(19:33):
a hospital, which it should be safe in a hospital, right,
But I just I want to educate people on like
the options that they have, like go into a birthing center.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Well, to start off, I think that the unfortunate thing
is is that we're lacking in the options. One of
the things that Bruce had mentioned is there are a
couple of birth centers throughout New York State, and that's
what we're hopefully working to change. One of the things
that I like to point out is that a lot
(20:04):
of the other high populous states throughout the United States
have so many birth centers, thirty to seventy birth centers,
and New York only has a couple and so while
we want that to be an option, we are how
do we say, flying a plane as we build it.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
This is not something.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
That's very accessible to us, and it's not a pathway
that has existed very well. So we had to work
very hard to change legislation, and even in that that
legislation is needs improvement. And so we are, let's say,
in a challenged position where we're working with non ideal legislation.
(20:49):
So but what we do have is a good situation
with the doctor Carla Williams, who's an obgyn who has
herself abowed down to midwiffery, had out of hospital births,
and she'll tell you more about herself. But one of
the things that we're doing is working with the physician
led model while we simultaneously fight to create midware free
(21:13):
lead models for care. So that is in the making.
And so let's just speak in a future tense that
I can visualize because I know it's reach. So the
options that more New Yorkers will have will be hospital
birth if they fall in that category of needing care
in a hospital sent a setting, or wanting care in
(21:36):
a hospital setting. That's a prerogative. It's an option of care,
and people will also have options for care in a
birth center where it's a happy medium between a hospital
setting and a home birth setting. So it's not an
individual's home, it's a center where it's built like a home,
(21:58):
yet we have all of the measures within the center,
like the resuscitation station, like the petocin, like the methogen,
like the oxygen, like all of the things that are
potentially helpful for birth, post birth, excuse me, labor. So
(22:18):
these are what we believe will be a greater option
and that midwives, more midwives of color, let's name, that
will be in these settings and working collaboratively with obgyns.
We're seeing envisioning not just CNMs that are currently licensed
(22:39):
midwives here in New York State, but CPMs, certified professional
midwives who are able to have had the apprenticeship model
of care, who have nurtured their educational process with lots
of experience of out of hospital birth, who are the
experts of out of hospital birth, that they'll also be
(22:59):
licensed here and working in collaboration with the CNMs, with
the obi's and together the birth centers will collaborate with
hospitals and hospitals will ideally be a place where we
can safely transfer, where we can communicate with their attendings
and say, hey, there's a person who wants an epidural,
We're going to send them over, and they will look
(23:22):
at us also as professional, legitimate place that is not
just like lighting a candle and having a baby in
some dark place, Like we're legitimate providers that will also
be integrated into our healthcare system.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, that was you bring up a great point. I
wanted to ask you both your perspective on that. Do
you feel that because where we are statistically with what's
going on with the Black maternal health crisis, that the
provider community is more or less embracing the integration of
doulahs and midwives as part of the system of care.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
So I think that things are maybe slightly getting better
in that department where the reception is a little bit better,
but there's there's so much work that has to be done.
And just like Bruce mentioned and Mala mentioned, that system
where there's that integration, where we're all working together, where
there's that collaboration, it's necessary and it's evident, you know,
(24:19):
because we do have evidence that in other industrialized countries,
this is the model that works. This is the model
that saves people, where saves women, you know, where where
midwives are taking care of you know, low risk pregnant
women which are the majority, and and Obi's obgyns are
stepping in and doing their job, which is much you know,
which is necessary as well, but when it's needed, you know,
(24:41):
when there's when there's an indication for it, and so
definitely the work.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Of the doulas.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
You know, there's there's a lot that needs to be
done in order for the providers in the hospital to
be more open and to understand what the role of
doulas is and how they help. There's evidence on that
as well on how you know, pregnancies are much better
and the outcomes are much better in terms of labor
and delivery and just experience, because that's also so important,
(25:10):
the experience that women are having during their labor and birth.
It's not just having a live baby and a live
mother at the end, but actually having an empowering and
joyous experience.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Mila, you were sharing before we started the podcast about
the scene in the documentary where there was like this
vision or they were showing the land right of projected
birthing center or what the future of birthing centers could
look like could you kind of share a little bit
about that moment in the documentary and like how you
(25:42):
feel now that you've seen a lot of this starting
to come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Sure, Yeah, it's very inspiring. I love living in a
space of envisioning what's possible, and that part of the
documentary was exciting because it was one of the first
times we had actually visited did that prospective place. While
that space is still available to us for a ground
(26:07):
up build, that's a much higher further reach and we
want access now. We have been working way too hard
to be waiting for money to come our way. We
have found ways through our community, through each other, through
(26:27):
different sacrifices, to figure out how do we reach our
community more immediately, and so part of what we did
was we created the Wombbus, which is a mobile wellness
hub that goes to various places throughout the Bronx to
bring some of these resources more closely to individuals who
(26:48):
are seeking them. So that may be education, outreach resources
like re acupuncture, knowing which of our community providers are
willing to be wonderfully generous with their expertise and so
we're excited that now we've because that launched in twenty
twenty two, and just last month we were able to
(27:12):
launch Mariam Reproductive Health and Wellness Clinic in the Norwood
area of the Bronx and we have put together such
a dope group of people who are really invested, deeply invested,
have personal reasons why they want to be a part
of this movement, from pelvic floor therapists, mental health therapist,
(27:35):
lactation consultants all within that vicinity, and we're working together
to be solution oriented, to be innovators, and we can
say we can reach people before we're catching their babies.
We can say, how do we impact their journey? How
do we improve these outcomes and experiences because someone's just
(27:57):
eating better or having somebody to talk talk to. These
are the holistic concepts that we don't get enough of
preparinatal care, and so we're going to provide that now
and we hope to show our impact even though we
know that it's impactful that we imagine will lead to
(28:20):
the more rapid build of the movement that we want,
which is birth centers now.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right, that's great, Doctor Williams, I have a question for
you in terms of that, like the provider patient relationship, right, Like,
where do you see that progressing too? I guess in
a positive space where you know, women feel like they
have more of a connection to their provider and what
that can transition to in terms of having a better
(28:49):
positive outcome in communities of color.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
I think that the first step, at least with the
providers is that they're becoming a little bit more open
to just live, you know, because you can get a
lot from just listening, because many providers are just are
just you know, have been quick to you know, adopt
that that form of you know, I know this, this
is my profession, you know, very paternalistic and just telling
(29:16):
the patient what they believe is, you know, the best
thing for them. But thankfully, I feel like there's been
a softening of that and providers are beginning to understand
that the patient is autonomous. The patient has the right
to express what they desire to Your obligation is to
give them adequate, informed consent. You explain what their options are,
(29:40):
but at the end of the day, you need to
respect the patient's desires and and you know what they're
whatever decision it is that they make, as long as
they're informed, and you provided the correct information. It's up
to them. So I feel like a lot of light
has been shed on in that area. And you know,
thanks to social media and TikTok and all the things,
(30:01):
you know, people are are learning a lot and just
becoming more aware of the need to simply listen.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, and it's evolving into a very connective community. Like
I omri. I see all the stuff that you know
you're doing on social media. I see your recent partnership
with March of Dimes. So can you tell me a
little bit about what you've been doing and how you've
been working with them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Of course, big up to Marshal Dimes. Yes, big up
some Marshal Dimes. We need more money. But you know,
I love them. They they're creating a lot of different
in initiatives for us to be able to tell our
story and and creating space for it to happen.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
March of Dimes obviously is a huge organization. They have
tons of reach, they have millions of people that they service,
you know, So it's just it's you know, humbling to
be able to really co create with them, you know.
So what they did when we created an activation around,
you know, just health equity, and they helped me tell
excuse me. They allowed me to the space to tell
my story of art and and my In Her Honor series.
(31:05):
So the in Her Honor Series was created pretty much
as an old to Shamani. I have a thousand painters
I painted as Shamani, and it was she wanted a
thousand and one, so I created that next one. But
then that started turning into hearing her tell me, all right,
create one of Amber for Bruce, and then create one
of care for Charles, and then create one of Shai
Ajah Washington, and create one a shrip Rockadema. And I
(31:28):
started just painting pictures for family members, not one not
to just do it. The main thing was to make
sure that I created connections with these families because it's
a lot. It's a different experience for me to just say, hey, condolencism,
sorry for your loss. If if you need somebody to
talk to, I'm here, as opposed to actually giving something
(31:50):
that honors there. You know, they're like Bruce said, they're martyrs,
you know, and giving something that they can you know,
hang in their house and look at every day and
really understand then and know that the person who painted
that understands what I'm going through and that there is
a community out there for them. Sure, and they allow
me to marshial doms, allow me to tell that story,
(32:10):
you know. So they took a bunch of my paintings
and you know, we did a whole activation around it,
and it was dope because, you know, it gives a
chance for those women and those men and those families
who don't necessarily have the opportunity to be on platforms
like this, have the opportunity to partner or are just
not because you have to be in a certain I
don't know, we're obviously delusional and crazy to even just
(32:34):
be able to suffer these losses, see this happening on
a daily basis, and still really getting out there and
pushing this initiative because it's a lot, you know, and
some people are just not in that just don't have
that self exactly, just not built for that, you know.
So it gave us an opportunity to be able to
(32:55):
tell their story and making sure that their you know,
mother's daughters, sisters, aunts, you know, are are their names
are being said, you know, and they're being honored and
people know that this is not just number two hundred
and eighty seven and five hundred and thirty three and
six hundred and eighty one who passed away this year.
These are real women with real families, with real you know,
(33:18):
who are pillas in their own community, in their own right,
you know. And March of Dimes, you know, so thank you,
Thank you for that. March adn to look forward to
create co creating things with you in the future. They've
also sponsored a lot of our events too, you know,
so they know that, you know, it's important to really
connect with people who have boots in the ground, who
are really doing work in the community.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That's great, that's great. They've been a great supporter of
this platform as well, and we're able to do the
work because of them. So I appreciate you mentioning that
and them because they're important to the cause.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
That's really so when you take a look at you know,
how someone processes pain and repurposes pain. Right, what it
would you give to a father who might find themselves
recently in the same position that you found yourselves in
not too long ago, I.
Speaker 6 (34:11):
Would say to really not you know, beat yourself up
too much. I found myself really beating myself up, trying
to trying to figure out how things could have went differently,
or yeah, just how things you know, could have ended up,
always wishing that I could have did something else or
(34:32):
paid attention to something else.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
But at the end of the day, you know, that
doesn't really change you.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Because we are left, you know, to put these women's
hands in the hand or put these women in the
hands of the providers where growing up we're.
Speaker 7 (34:45):
Told that that's the safe place.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
And so my my thing to man, I'll tell them
every day like it's it's gonna get hard, it's not easy.
It's something that we're constantly going to have to cope
with and live with throughout the rest of our lives.
But really honoring your partner is the best way that
you can really uplift their name and honor them. You know,
(35:09):
I wake up every day doing everything that I can
to to honor my partner. She had so much to
give to this earth that you know she was she
was cut short from and I tell people all the time,
like Amber, Amber had a had a stronger voice than
I did.
Speaker 7 (35:23):
You know, she was really vocal. She was the one who.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Had, you know, the true power and and I was
lucky enough to experience that and have some of that
power rub duff on me. She was someone who constantly
uplifted me and.
Speaker 7 (35:38):
Empowered me to be my best self.
Speaker 6 (35:40):
So even after her passing, I hear her, you know,
in my ear telling them I could do things I could,
I could do better, or if I'm feeling down, I
know that you know she's she's she's trying to lift
me up in ways. So really, you know, always trying
to keep that in mind. Also, you know, with when
you're when you're left with a child as a widow
as well, you want to do your best to try
(36:01):
to still honor that co parenting method as well, because
the you know, even though they're gone physically, they're still
there spiritually, and you know, you want to instill some
of that those those qualities into your child and just
you know, really keep your head up and keep going
and do everything that you can to honor your partner,
(36:22):
and that's going to make you feel ten times more better.
Speaker 7 (36:27):
I don't know, I don't know where I would be
or what I would be.
Speaker 6 (36:30):
Doing if I if I wasn't uplifting her name and
you know, feeling the power of being vulnerable, turning your
pain into power. Me as a as an introvert, As
an introvert, it was it was difficult for me to
have to transition into an extrovert, you know, speaking and
you know, sure, but but yeah, just just uplifting their
(36:51):
name and making sure that you're you're waking up every day,
you're looking at your child and doing everything that you
can to give them the best life that they can have.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, I'm glad that you started with that, Bruce.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
You know, I was so.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I said this once in my men's group, and because
I said it there, I'm able I can say it now.
But you know, when Shamani passed, you know, we moved together.
When we moved in together, I think she was about
twenty seven or twenty eight, you know, and then she
passed when she was thirty.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
And I was big on my mind in terms of.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Like that, like your mother protected you for twenty eight years,
and then you came and lived with me as a man,
and I didn't do my job, and you know, you
lost your life within the two three years that we
were together, you know, and that really that really hurt me,
and it really sat deep in me. But I made
(37:43):
sure that that wasn't what the focus was because again,
you know, like you said, you know, you put your
you know, then ten in the hands of the provider
because you know, you think that they are their professionals,
and we thought that we would cover, you know. So
I would say also too that you know, for men,
it's a journey at this point, Bruce, I and all
(38:03):
the other men that I've actually spoke to who have
had suffered loss in this way, I've had to change
their whole entire life, change the trajectory.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Of their whole entire life. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So that means that you have to do things differently.
There's no way that you can really be effective as
a father, as somebody who's grieving, as somebody who suffered
through trauma and still think that you're going to be
able to just up and be fine just like that,
you know.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
So it is a journey.
Speaker 7 (38:31):
For me.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's this mental, mental, spiritual and physical journey.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So I get up and I work out every day.
Not because it's the summertime and I want to look
good for the summer, that's not it. I want to
look good for my sixties.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
It's some vanity, but at the same time, what it
really is is the understanding that as my body changes,
my mind changes. As my mind changes, my emotional capacity
has changed, you know, and I'm able to now be
able to have those conversations with myself first, to really
be able to figure out how am I going to
get through this day, even though I am upset, and
(39:05):
even though I wish my partner was here, and even
though I don't want to cook the dinner, do the dishes,
do the laundry, break the kids up, put them to bed.
I don't want to do that though by myself, you know.
But at the same time, it's needed, and it's purpose driven,
and I'm physically, mentally and spiritually making sure that I
can do this on a daily basis. So I think
(39:26):
that one that's like a shift that really needs to
happen for men at this but also to double down
that you have to have a community, you have to
have to have There's no way in heck that any
of us could do this without the support of the
people that are around us to allow us to be
in this space to know that my children are find
and I can go out and speak, or I can
go out and do the things that I need to
(39:47):
as a provider and bring what I need to bring
home to my family. There's no, no, no way you
can do it without community. And then to even triple
down on that, to have a community of men to
have this conversation with, to be able to have that
support system with.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I know too many.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Men who don't have elders in their life, who don't
understand the importance of having conversations with elders or the youth,
you know, so they're out here. I don't want to
say headless, but doing things as an individual. You cannot
create a life of fulfillment without people around you. And
a man cannot learn how to become a man without
(40:24):
men who have had the experiences of going through this
world as a man, as an adult man, you know.
So I think that all of those things kind of
rolled into one is something that you know, men really
need to start seeking out.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, you make a valid point in terms of that
protective provider mentality that men have. How you automatically take
that on right regardless of what happens to us, Like
you're innate to automatically take that on, which is I
think it's God given right. But also being able to
process in that way where you not living in a
(41:01):
state of blame and condemnation, because there are certain things
that are just out of our control, right and that
that we can't we can't always manage. Right. So in closing,
if I had to ask you both to articulate the
legacy of Amber and Shamani, what would you say?
Speaker 6 (41:23):
I mean, Amber was of course shut, you know, cut
short of you know, her life. So a month, a
month after she passed away. As omar I mentioned before too,
how he had to bury Shamani on his birthday, I
also had to bury Amber on my birthday and that
was the only available date that was there, and that's
(41:45):
how we actually ended up connecting. But a month after
she passed away, she should have been walking on stage
with my son in arms receiving her master's degree.
Speaker 7 (41:57):
You know, she wanted to. She was earning her master's
in business development.
Speaker 6 (42:02):
Worked really hard for that throughout her pregnancy. You know,
she was a very strong, motivated, goal oriented person. I
have so much love and respect for her and everything
that she's accomplished and was set to accomplish. And but yeah,
she should have been walking with my son in arms
earning her master's degree.
Speaker 7 (42:20):
We're talking about a woman who wanted.
Speaker 6 (42:21):
To create extracurriculum activities for for children. She had a
strong passion for the youth, and she also wanted to
help out the community, the fathers, the mothers of the
of the community. She eventually wanted to open her own school.
So she just had so much to bring the community.
And and what I think the legacy of Amber is
(42:45):
she She's already out here saving millions of lives just
by you know, telling her story and uplifting her name,
but also these tangible changes that are that are being done,
like such as the birthing sense.
Speaker 7 (43:01):
I think that would be the biggest way that we.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
Can honor Amber is by creating this birthing center so
we can create better birthing outcomes for everyone else, because
I don't want, you know, what happened to me to
happen to anybody else, especially if it's one hundred preventable, right,
And yeah, So just creating that that legacy for her,
I think has been the major goal for me. I
(43:24):
think once the birthing center is up and we have
everything for the set for that, I'll be able to
like sit down and really breathe and really sit back
and say that we did it in the name of Amber.
But that's you know, what keeps me going every day,
what wakes me up, keeps me motivated. Knowing that we're
creating these tangible changes in her honor and knowing that
(43:45):
that legacy is going to be forever.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
Yeah for me.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
You know, Shamani, we were like any other couple.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
We had our problems. You had our issues in our relationships.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
She got on my nerves all the time, you know,
and I think that that's how I'm gonna make sure
I honor her. She's always in my ear about stuff
that I need to do better and I shouldn't be
doing or could be doing this, or not thinking about
this person. And you know, that is always ringing in
my ear with her, and it shows up not just
with me, but throughout the entire family. You know, Shamani
(44:17):
was an artist. So she was a dancer, she was
a hairstylist, she was an entrepreneur. She had her own
business when she was fourteen.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
So we created our full living together and Aria Foundation
is essentially our full living two point zero.
Speaker 4 (44:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I bring that up because for me, the only reason
why she told me that she wanted to be with
me is because I created art and because of she
saw how I.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Treated my son.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
You know, we used to work together, so we had
that experience together. So you know, I'm just making sure
that again I'm always doing that. I'm making sure that
one with this business that we co created together is
gonna thrive. These children that we co created together are.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Gonna thrive, you know.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
And I'm gonna make sure that I do my part
in this maternal health space to honor her as well
as making sure that because I know she's in her
mother and her sister's there all the time as well,
making sure that we're all three of us specifically are
covered in order to and I'm supporting them in the
best way that i can in order to help redirect
(45:16):
birthing outcomes. Because just the same way that she's orchestrating
stuff down here, I know that she's connecting with all
the other women who have suffered losses in the same
way up in the spiritual realm to make sure that
we are all covered and we're able to do this
and nothing is going to block the initiatives that we
all have set for and intentions excuse me intentions that
(45:36):
we all have set for each other, you know, So
I'm just running the play, that's all.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, So anything coming up that we should know about
that you're working on in the space that you would
like to promote or in how can people connect with
you and get in contact with you if they want
to work with you?
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 6 (45:54):
So we can be connected with at www Dot Savor
rules Foundation dot org where you can reach out to
me directly at Bruce dot McIntyre at Save Rohsfoundation dot org.
Also a thing that we have been actually been working
on is I do a lot in policy work as well,
and right now we're still trying to pass the Grieving
Families Act. And the Grieving Families Act actually passed twice
(46:18):
unanimously through the Senate.
Speaker 7 (46:21):
However, it's been vetoed by Governor Hockel twice.
Speaker 6 (46:24):
And so what the Grieving Family Act does is it
creates what I think, you know, accountability for the hospitals
and a safety net for families. So whenever your you know, spouse,
your partner passes away, the system likes to just think
of them they're as good as their last job, versus
with you know, the grieving Families Act. It allows you
(46:46):
to sue for grief and anguish as well. And so
this this bill has actually been in place for one
hundred and seventy seven years. It has not kept black
people in mind at all, and so we're trying to
you know, it's very important that we try to get
this this Grieving Families Act passed so we can really
(47:08):
create accountability, create accountability exactly. And also if you haven't already,
please download the Earth app, which is a Yelp like
review where women, fathers, supporting partners can leave reviews on hospitals,
can leave reviews on their doctors, their obgu i ns
and it's you know, it's also very important that we
(47:29):
collect and build that data where you know, it's a
space where black women are feeling feel hurt, where they
can you know, leave these reviews on these hospitals. And
there's also a feature on there as well called Amber's Rose.
So anytime or mortality happens in a hospital, a little
purple roles indication will pop up for Amber's Rose, indicating
that there was a maternal loss in the hospital.
Speaker 7 (47:53):
So please download the Earth app. It's I R T H.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
We dropped the b for bias the Earth app Please
down low that at your at your playstory.
Speaker 4 (48:02):
Big up to Kimberly Seals. Definitely, big up to.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
Kimberly Steals dollars.
Speaker 6 (48:05):
There was actually she was actually awarded in the proclamation
that April eleventh will now be noticed in New York
as Earth Day.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
So for us, you can reach us at ww dot
Theria Foundation dot org. On Instagram, It's the Aria Foundation
my Instagram. You can just find me O Mari Maynard.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
What we have.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Coming up is, well, we just finished a series. What
we basically did was did it in Bongie and then
in Bongie is it's very basically a virtual trial and
dramatization to put doctor j Marin Sims on trial for
the atrocities that he did to the mothers of gynecology.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
And that was super dope. It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
We had over five hundred people in virtual space attend
to attend it. The next thing that we have coming
up is the week before Mother's Day, which is called
the Postpartum Awareness Week. Now, we lose most of our mothers,
our children in the postpartum period, you know, so we
want to make sure that you know people understand that
and they understand all the things that you know are
(49:13):
needed in order for the postpartum experience to be what
it is, you know. So we're doing covering everything postpartum.
It's a virtual session. It's absolutely free. You can attend
by registering up at our website or you can again
go to our IG page and find that information there.
And you know, we're using again the tools ways to
(49:34):
innovate in order to make sure that you know, people
understand the information so that we can all redirect birthing
outcomes collectively.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
So please please please.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Postpartum Awareness Week register today and watch our documentary on
Hulu called Aftershock.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yes, yes, ladies or anything you want to add places
people can connect with you more about the birthing centers.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Yeah, thank you for asking. I would say follow us
on IG as well Birthing Place BX, welcome to marry them.
These are our two IG handles and we definitely hope
people can contribute whatever they can towards our capital campaign
we are launching in this next couple weeks and want
(50:23):
people to be involved spreading the word, also hosting whatever gathering.
They're already planning to host a dinner a Mother's Day
dinner is something coming up for somebody. But whatever spheres
of influence people have that they may be willing to
spend a few minutes sharing about the issue. We have
(50:43):
informational handout that people can share with links to support
us and to just get involved. So that's one thing,
and another is we are working in partnership with Birth Fund.
They just launched a really great program where it's a
(51:06):
family oriented solution where families are sponsoring other families to
get care that they wouldn't otherwise receive. And so we've
become a trusted partner here in New York with this
wonderful organization and we see it becoming very impactful, and
we would love people to just know about them, support
what's happening there, because that has not just the potential
(51:29):
to impact the individuals who are going to receive care
that they wouldn't otherwise be able to, but it has
a lot of opportunity for policy change as well and
shift how insurance works where people can't access some of
the care even if they want it and seek it
and have the option within their state, which that in
(51:50):
and of itself needs to improve, But even when it's
accessible it has a lot of out of pocket costs
and that's not fair, right, So follow birth fund is well, wonderful, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Anything you want to add, No.
Speaker 5 (52:04):
We're just excited about this chapter where you know, we've
already described how we you know, met several years ago.
We were so happy to just have the wound us
then move on to our clinic that's opened now in
the Bronx and working uh hard towards building the birth center.
So we appreciate everyone's support.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
Awesome, Well, thank you all for being here. I'm maternal,
sharing your stories and just supporting the space and just
being a great resource, right you know, that's one of
the things that's super important for us, for this platform
in general. It's just that we continue to build this
community and we continue to support and build one another up.
So I appreciate you all for coming here today and
(52:44):
sharing your insight.
Speaker 7 (52:45):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
We appreciate you so much for creating this space and
making sure that this conversation is happening on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.
I appreciate you, and you'll hopefully come back and continue
to update us on all your good work, okay, awesome, good,
Or you're listening to Me Eternal on iHeartRadio home to
access to information for mothers of color, and I'm Kenya Gibson.
Until next time,
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