May 30, 2024 • 50 mins
Dr. Earle Fisher talked with us this morning about the V.O.I.C.E.S. project that analyzes violent crime in Memphis. He also chimed in on the Kendrick Lamar and Drake messy beef and thoughts on viewing the horrendous Cassie and Diddy assault video.
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Episode Transcript
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Mike Evans and the Memphis Morning Show, your double e Ena Esco here,
Mike Evans over there, And todaywe have a special guest in the building
for a second time, one ofmy good friends from the Loamorno and College
and senior pastor at Abyssinian Missionary BaptistChurch and activists in our Memphis community.
We're talking about Pastor Earl Fisher.Welcome, Earl Esco and my dear brother
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Mike. Yes, yes man.Glad to be back. Thank y'all for
having me, and thank you forall that y'all are doing to keep our
people informed and inspire and entertained andentertained you know, we coming with it
every morning. And congress to you, Earl, because I saw you well
presiding over the lantern service. No, yeah, I was the keynote speaker
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at our Alma matera for the backof Lord or lantern service. Yet that
was a wonderful experience. It's alwaysgood to be back at loc you know,
and so I'm back there all thetime. But most people don't know.
Like that was an answer prayer,like I had longed for that opportunity.
Really had to be able to sharesome spiritual perspectives to the graduates.
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And so it was twenty one yearsafter my graduation. One, yeah,
because it's twenty twenty four and Igraduated two thousand and three. You graduated
in two thousand, two thousand,two thousand and one, two thousand and
one. Yeah, so yeah,I mean it was it was a fantastic
experience and encounter, and no wantto offer them some words of affirmation,
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you know, talk to them alittle bit about the tradition of HBCUs in
the tradition of lamonn On in particular, and what it meant to be baptized
in that tradition, and then alsowhat it means to kind of take your
experiences from Lemonne and go out intothe world and try to be a change
agent. So shoot, man,they can invite me back every year.
(01:52):
Okay, I really did. Theyhad, you know, they had a
reunion choir. I saw that stageand Carter was like the director of some
of our class. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep. So
it was. It was wonderful,man, it was wonderful. Reverend Vincent
Jopplin Bennie Benny b Yeah, VinnieVincent. Uh. He offered up the
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invocation and the benediction. Of course, the interim president, Reverend doctor Christopher
B. Davis was there. That'smy brother. So we had a great
time. Yeah. And for thosewho don't know what the lantern service is
what, Yeah, So it's aservice or ceremony. It's a ritual of
sorts that honest to graduates, butalso symbolically describes what it means to carry
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the light. So everybody carries theselights or these lanterns down the street from
La moyn On to Metropolitan Baptist Church, and so that symbolizes like lamorna On
College being an institution or beacon oflightened the people who come through there being
enlightened and then being tasked with theresponsibility of carrying that light over into the
broader community and passing that light ontothe next She's just a wonderful thing.
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You know. Ain't no place likeyou know, I passed the blackest church
in Memphysics. Ain't no question thatjust the blackest institution of higher education,
you know, in the city andin the county. And so I'm always
thrilled to be in partnership with them. I reflect on the transformation that I
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experienced while I was there and whatit has inspired and allowed me to do
and equip me to do like this, and you too, you know what
I'm saying watching you over these years, my dear sister, just salute to
all that you have been able toaccomplish as not just the on air personality,
but you know entrepreneur Mike, andI would teasing you know you you
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the boss around to give beautiful Alot of us like to be controlled.
See that. Wow, Well,pastor earl, let's put your what's your
doctor had? On your scholastic actbecause you are definitely in tuned with the
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city of Memphis, with the communityof Memphis and trying to make efforts of
change here. And you know weoften talk about the crime and Memphis right
and solutions what can we do?And you're working on a project right now
called Voices. Break that down forthe city of Memphis. This new project
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that you're working on, sure,and thank you for giving me an opportunity
to talk about A Voice project isabout vital observations on individuals criminal experiences and
stories. And so what we're tryingto do is get some direct testimony from
people who have been involved in violentcrimes and so a lot of times when
you hear that, people think you'retalking about the victims. We're not turning
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away people's testimony if they've been victimizedby violent crime, but we are trying
to target and focus on people whohave been involved in crimes and who have
committed sh fans and so, havecommitted on robberies, have committed car thefts,
and things of that nature. Becauseif you look at the matrix of
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criminal justice or criminal justice reform,or crime in public safety in Memphis and
Shelby County over the last several years, there have been a lot of speculation
as to why people engage in thesebehaviors. And it took me a couple
of years in conversation with a lotof community stakeholders, some governmental, some
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non governmental, some faith based,some everyday people in the neighborhoods that I
frequent that there was an aspect missing, like as much as people would talk
about what to do in so faras response is concerned, higher, more
police officers, be tough on crime, zero tolerance, change the ball system,
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change the sentencing laws. Nobody hadhad direct conversations that they had documented
from the people who have been involved, and so I felt like that was
a gap, and as a scholar, I wanted to be a social scientist
and try to fill that gap.So I reached out to, you know,
the District Attorney's office. I reachedout to some private lawyers who I
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know, who I know have representedpeople who have engaged in these particular type
of behaviors, and of some ofthe other community organizations that deal with these
types of issues, and started todiscuss what it would mean to put together
some kind of process and some kindof project that would give us access to
the information that we needed to helpfill that gap. And so the Voices
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Project was birth. We discussed itstarting a fall of twenty twenty three.
He tried to launch it in oneform or another in January, and because
of things that was happening with meprofessionally, because I took on another job,
I was doing another things things happened. Okay, busy body, Yeah
right right. I got to learnhow to say no more often. That's
a skill. That's a tough thing. That's a tough thing to do something
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in that Yeah, see when youreferenced this when we talked to you before,
Like you referenced doing this before,right when the first time we talked
it was you kind of alluded toit. Yeah, I might have had
some I might have dropped some breadcrun Yeah, just in terms of you
know, what your concept of becausepeople do think it's a matter of adding
police bail system. But you mentionedthat, you kind of referenced it.
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I don't have the producer here.If that would rewind, can we play
that the producer would happen the pastinterview while I was talking about what I
mean. I mean, Yes,these are common elements of the conversation of
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crime and public safety and criminal justicereform. So any major metropolitan city in
the country, if you start havingthis conversation, Mike, somebody's gonna say
something about the number of police officersor what they would call the compliment,
which is the eye did at acertain number of police officers are enough to
tackle the crime issues in a particularcity or county, right, and so
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in Memphis and Shelby County for thelast several years, especially under the Strictland
administration, there's a lot of conversationabout what that number was, whether the
numbers twenty five hundred police officers,whether there's two thousand police officers, and
what it would take to get tothat point. And I've been arguing for
a long time about the philosophy underneaththat. The philosophy underneath it is that
the way you stop violent crime isby locking people up. Arrest people,
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lock them up, and then you'lldeter other people from engaging in crime and
criminal behavior. Well, there areall manner of studies that show that's not
the case. That if you wantto tackle crime, you got to tackle
poverty. So no matter how muchwe've tried to scream this from the mountaintops,
there have been entities and organizations thatcontinue to parade in front of the
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media and continue to satch rate oursociety with the same subliminal messages of if
you want to stop crime, thenyou need to hire more police officers.
And the more I thought about thatnarrative, not just as a scholar,
but also as a pastor and asa person living in the city feeling some
of the same anxieties that people feelabout what has happened or what might happen,
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And I started to figure out whowe weren't talking to directly, And
of course I know people who haveengaged in these things. Some of these
people who have done the survey,right, and it's an anonymous survey,
so this is not us trying tocompromise anybody's pending lawsuit, right, So
this would be we are aiming atpeople who are in what's called post adjudication,
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so you've already been through the courtsystem, and don't forget now we're
not only dealing with or working withthe district attorney's office. We're working with
private attorneys, people who have defendedsome of the people who have engaged in
these behaviors. And so when Igot all of them to sign on,
people like Alex Wharton, people likeSamuel Christian, people like Carlossa. Shaw,
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when I got them in the BenF. Jones Chapter of the National
Bar Association to sign on, whatI started hearing organizations say who had engaged
in work around this is we wishwe would have thought about it like you
thought about it, doctor Fisher,because people talk to victims rightfully. So
we need to get that documented experienceof how people encounter these instances where they
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have been victimized through car thefts orthrough shootings or through armed robberies. But
we also need to start talking directlyto the people who commit them and stop
the speculation of it all. Wehave so many laws passed in memphisis Shelby
County, proposed in Nashville by statesenators and state representatives without ever really considering
the people who have been directly responsiblefor engaging in this behavior. And so
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this is what this project aims todo. We are taking digital surveys for
now. We're going to do somein person interviews hopefully at the start the
next month, and we want toshare these experiences or this information. Can
we say when you say digital surveys, yeah, so that just means you
can click a link, you couldtake it online, right, And so
we're not we will do if somebodysays, bring me a hard copy survey
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and let me fill it out onpaper, then we will. But we
felt like it would be more efficient, more easily accessible, and it's just
more anonymous when you can take itonline, right, And so you know,
we put together a digital survey sopeople can click a link. If
you want access to the link,all you have to do is email us
at ac SI to ABC at gmaildot com and put voices survey in the
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subject line. That's a c sI to ABC at gmail dot com and
put Voices Service Survey in the subjectline. Or there have been media outlets
that have been producing stories about this, and so you can probably google Voices
Project Memphis or EU Official Voices Pricetoo, Yeah, and you'll see some
of that. Yeah, we're definitelygoing to send you out a link and
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so people can share it that way. But we just want people to feel
confident and comfortable in taking this survey, because we know sometimes there's anxieties associated
with sharing your experience when you havebeen the perpetrator, and so we want
to create a space for them toshare honestly so that we can know.
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We can stop the speculation. Youdon't have to conjure up the reasons why,
right. I have reasons based uponresearch and a study and an anecdotal
experience. But I haven't shot anybody. I hadn't robbed anybody. I hadn't
stolen any cars. So I can'ttell you what prompted me to do that.
But the people who have can tellus, and we can stop speculating.
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We don't need any elected official tospeculate. We don't need any community
member or community organization to speculate.We are talking directly to those people and
starting to get some responses that aretelling I can't share them yet done?
Ye, well no, we almostat one hundred now, and so the
reason I can't share it is becauseas a scholar, you don't want to
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share premature findings when you don't havewhat it's called a large enough sample size.
Right, So there are things thatare starting to emerge, there are
trends as we analyze it, butand I don't mind sharing what we have
with everybody when we finish the projectat all. As a number, what's
your goal? So I think thebaseline for the digital surveys is going to
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be about two hundred. If weget to two hundred, but that's not
what we're aiming for, you know, we would like to have five hundred.
And if we get to a thousand, I'm gonna bless the Lord O
myself. I guess there's a degreeof people that would still be suspect of
doing that. You know, regardlessof how anonymous it is and how much
you put it out that it isanonymous, there's always gonna be that element,
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like I know there's something like thisis why you work directly with defense
attorneys because their clients should try usthem so they can direct and some of
them have started directing some of theirclients who are posted judication now, people
who got cases pending, right.And I even had this conversation with Phyllis
Aluko, who is the public defenderand she'll be kind of a public defender's
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office, and so you know,she was interested in the program, but
there were some things that she wantedthat I think would have been more directly
maybe even antatagonistic towards, like theDistrict Attorney's office. And so I'm like,
I'm down to do that for therecord, but it's not on this
particular project, right, So theidea of people feeling skeptical is reasonable.
Here's where I thought you were going, Mike, but you didn't. But
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it makes me think about this.When we present our findings, I'm confident
that there will be people who willbe skeptical of it. And as a
scholar, I'm fine with that.Scholars are accustomed to having our information scrutinized.
It should be, because what we'reafter is the truth. But I
know there's a whole bunch of peopleout there, some in elected office,
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some appointed to positions of high authority, some who have organized organizations and institutions
and they published stuff and we don'tscrutinize it. So I'm saying keep that
same energy. Yes, scrutinize theVoices Project. Also scrutinized the stuff that
comes out of the Memphis Shelby CountyCrime Commission. Okay, scrutinized the stuff
that Senator Brent Taylor pulls out ofhis under arm. He's talking about all
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the time when he's talking about crimeand public safety and using anecdotal experiences and
using information that hasn't been disaggregated.And I'll give you one prime example.
He paraded around the notion that theTennessee Highway Patrol was doing a great job
to stop crime and catch felons.And they presented last fall something before city
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Council, and it had findings fromJanuary to August, the Tennessee Highway Patrol
has had committed seventeen thousand and thenfive hundred traffic stops. Ten thousand times.
Out of that seventeen thousand, fivehundred they let the people go with
just a warning, which means nothinghappened. Seventy five hundred times they rode
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a citation Okay, of those seventyfive hundred times, there was less than
three hundred times where somebody was arrestedfor a misdemeanor and less than fifty times,
less than twenty five times. Ithink it was like thirteen times where
somebody was arrested for a felony.So, now I think about this,
might think about demeaner. Seventeen thousand, five hundred stops. You get less
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than three hundred and fifty arrests.Now, that don't mean somebody's convicted,
because there's a clearance rate in MemphisShelby County of people who are arrested,
and I think less than thirty threepercent of them end up being convicted.
So think about that seventeen thousand trafficstops, and you can't even get five
hundred convictions. You can't even gettwo hundred convictions. But what you did
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do is get seventy five hundred ticketsabout one hundred and thirty dollars a pop.
It's supposed to a million dollars.None of it goes to Memphis and
Shelby County. But the narrative ofthis police in particular, is how you
stop violent crimes and how you catchfeelings has been seared into our minds such
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that if somebody presents us anything thatlooks like that information and confirmation, like
we feel better now because the ratesof the crime rates going down in certain
areas, that that's been Yeah,but that's what I'm saying that, yeah,
that makes you feel good versus yeah, it's some information that you might
pull up that it may not makethe average person feel good, Like we
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don't feel any better. Right.We often talk about this in the morning,
like we question the headlines, thestories, like as you should,
you can. You can look atdata in different ways. It's all about
how you present the data. Yeah, people say stuff like figures don't lie,
but liars do figures, right,But I think what we are discussing
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is was confirmation bias. So theysay, for instance, if you walk
around with a hammer, everything lookslike a nail. So if in our
minds the issue is black criminals,then the answer has to be lock them
up. Now. Notice if westart talking about opioid crisis, right,
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which was drug offenses, all ofa sudden, it's like, how do
you remedy this and how do youcomprehensively address this? It's a public health
crisis, but when it was crackcocaine, lock them up, right,
So you have this notion that massincarceration is the answer. So if you
walk around with a hammer of massincarceration, everything looks like a nail of
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black criminality. It got to beblack criminals that are the problem. And
that's not always or necessarily the case. I would even argue most of the
time it's not the case. Butthat's how we've been taught or conditioned to
see it. What I hope comesout of this project, it's some concrete
data and information that, if nothingelse, gets us closer to the truth.
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Even if the truth is you know, what the issue is, black
folks is acting crazing need to belocked up. Now. I don't think
that that's the case, and Idon't think that the numbers will bear that
out. But if it does,here's what you can guarantee for me.
I'll share what everybody and say,this is what it is, and we
need to make our adjustments accordinate.However, you know, however might if
it doesn't show that, if itshows us that people are saying, for
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instance, what I need is aequitable education, what I needed was easier
access to better opportunities. It seemslike it all comes from poverty. It's
still tying back to poverty. Yeah, I mean, one thing you don't
find in affluent neighborhoods are a abunch of police officers and b a bunch
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of crime and violence. So ifindeed the answer to crime and violence is
more police, show me where crimeis low but police are high. M
That's just that just doesn't seem tobe the case. But you know,
you talk to a lot of people, and you know, you know,
you know everybody when you put allyour information together, how do you feel
that I guess you can't really knowit'll be received. Let's just say,
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uh in terms of implementing some ofthat information and data from your research,
Like, well, Chief David's lookat this, and you know, do
you think that they'll really, youknow, take it into consideration in a
way that's going to be positive forthe community. Like that's a great question.
And here's what I think about that. This is where community organizing comes
in. Right, This would beone thing, brother Mike, if I
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independently started this project and just freelancedit, which was an option, but
that anybody who knows me knows that'snot my mo right. So this is
a group of project at this point, So not a question is who are
the stakeholders in this? And evenif you don't want to hear what I
have to say, you don't wantto hear what the district attorney has to
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say. You don't want to hearwhat the Shelby County Office of re Entry,
the people who come out of ourcorrectional facilities and are trying to integrate
back into society. You don't wantto hear what DeAndre Brown has to say.
You know, you don't want tohear what the president of the Ben
F. Jones Chapter of the NationalBar Association has to say. From a
legal standpoint, So I ain't reallygive a damn whether you care about what
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I have to say. Now,I'm a stand on whatever it is true,
right, Like Malcolm said, I'mfor truth no matter who's speaking it.
I'm for justice, no matter who'sfor or against it. But if
this is a group project, andwe've been able to organize this group of
stakeholders, you mean to tell methe City Council shouldn't listen to the findings,
the County Commission shouldn't consider the findings. Mayor Harris, mayor Young wouldn't
even look at this, then,I think that would say something about where
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they stand. I don't think itwould say nothing about our energy and effort
to try to get to the typeof information that I think can be helpful.
If the Senator in Tennessee don't wantto listen to this, if the
state representatives don't want to consider thisstuff, I think we should question them.
And this is where again community organizingcomes in, because before we share
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it with them, we're gonna besharing it in communities like White Haven in
Westwood and North Memphis and South memphisisconsideration. And because earlier you talked about
how we feel, right, andanybody who has done any type of therapy
learns your feelings ain't always facts.So if I share facts with you and
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the facts are different than your feelings, what should we change? The feelings
are the facts. So sometimes wefeel how we feel because of the information
we've been given. If I giveyou some information, crime is down twenty
percent, right, So at somepoint you might have to say, well,
maybe it's not likely that I'm justgonna walk out my door and be
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shot and killed. Now That doesn'tmean for those of us who live in
the these communities and in these neighborhoodswhere crime and violence are much more prevalent,
that we shouldn't be much more intune or alert. That's not what
I'm saying. What I am sayingis should we be putting together policies and
procedures and laws and legislation based uponfeelings or facts facts? So if and
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when the facts come out because ofqualitative and quantitative research methods, how are
we supposed to respond? And I'mhere and I stand on this, and
I dare anybody you know not thatI can't be proven wrong, but I'm
gonna make you prove it. Whatwe see right now in our legislative and
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political landscape is not people really divingdeep into data, even though we talk
about being data informed a data driven. What we do is take political talking
points that tend to come from thinktanks that are heavily biased in one way
or another again confirmation bias hammer lookingfor a nail, and then we shape
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our legislation based upon what we thinkwe can share to the general public.
As a politician that would increase thelikelihood of me being re elected. It's
not about whether or not I wantto stand on what's true, even if
this is not how the general publicfeels. And then my job becomes to
engage and educate the general public suchthat the facts change their feelings. Instead
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of doing that, it's much easierto just gauge your vice's feelings and then
tell them what you think they wantto hear and what you just said.
That's the way it's always been.This is something that yeah, what you're
doing now, this is something that'snobody's doing. You know what. It's
giving me my past six sigma experiencedvibes because you're definitely looking at it from
a quantitative and qualitative analysis, which, like you said, facts like these
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are the facts. I could definitelysee you presenting this in Nashville as the
capital. I don't think the projectis done, so that's possible. I
definitely wouldn't turn it down, right, but we have to look at the
landscape of Nashville white nationalist congress rightheavily biased towards the GOP way of working,
which is, you know, wedon't really want to engage with black
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folks like that, and so let'sjust go ahead and we know what the
problem is, and it's black criminality. Dismiss them, lock them up,
throw away the key. Right,but let's talk about Memphis and Shelby County,
so locally, right, these shouldbe the people who say, this
is the information we've been looking for. This is the information we want to
hear, and we want to dowhat we can not only to engage the
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information, but when we can proveit to be valid, affirm it,
and implement this information into the broaderstructure of the plans and the processes and
the policies we're trying to pass.And that's not knowing how everything's going to
come out, because you're still inthe world. So yeah, notice I
haven't made any strong claims like Iknow we gonna see this. I know
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you have it because he look,I don't know, right. Do I
have feelings? Of course, I'ma human being. Do I have premonitions,
Absolutely, and I have experiences intimes past from things that I study.
But as a researcher, you gotto do the best you can to
be objective and so I'm not tryingto shape this to fit whatever my confirmation
bias is. Hey, I loveto learn prove me wrong. But one
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thing we know for sure and notdare anybody prove me wrong on this.
What we've been doing for the lastseveral years is not working. That's not
find the lie, that's the fact. Find that's the fact. So if
we keep doing the same thing rightand expecting something to change, then the
problem is us. So I'm saying, here's another element to the equation,
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maybe a missing element. It's almostlike when you're working as an engineer or
when you're working as a mechanic,right, sometimes all of the stuff in
the system is fine. Just don'thave a spark club, right, So
nothing's working. So maybe this isthe spark club. Maybe this is the
conveyor belt. You're you're saying,you're the ones saying the world is around
right now, man, the worldis around. Believe me, because you're
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right. Because this you're gonna lookat the numbers, you're gonnaok at look
at the carjackings and assaults, andthat's all the information. You're just using
the incidences that would you know,those things that have happened as your references.
No, well, not just that, because for instance, the Memphis
Police Department uses the things that havehappened. They document violent crimes. Right,
they can tell you the number ofThat's what all we got right now.
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But what they don't share. AndI'm not saying that this is their
responsibility to share it either, becauselaw enforcement have different responsibilities than other researchers.
Right, I'm saying we have notheard from the people who have committed
crimes. How many times have weasked them? Yeah? Right? So
just think about it, think aboutthink about it from a healthcare standpoint,
right, And you could relate tothis. You've had a child before,
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right, two of them, twoboys, Eli and Dallas. Right.
So imagine somebody coming up with healthcare laws for pregnant mothers but has never
talked to a pregnant mother. Wewould say this is crazy, right,
Like, how you gonna come upwith this, Like you don't know what
that experience is? Like, whywould you come up with policies without consulting
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with or interviewing and documenting what apregnant mother says? Now, when we
see all male panels talking about women'shealth care, we say, what,
something's wrong with this? So whywould we be talking about law enforcement strategies?
Why would we be talking about answersto crime and violence without talking to
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criminals. It just doesn't seem toadd up to me. And especially if
we consider something that we said,I think it may have been off air
like these people aren't. Most ofthem, I would argue, aren't like
some demons that cannot be redeemed rightlike they are people who oftentimes end up
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in situations and circumstances where they feellike they have no other choice. Whether
that's true or not, we candiscuss when we get to find it.
But one thing's for sure or twothings for certain. This doesn't mean that
you shouldn't listen to what they haveto say about why they did what they
did and what may have been aremedy for them and others not to do
it again. No, a greatapproach and key stakeholders. I really think
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that you know, once you aredone with the project, in attaining all
of your surveys, you may besurprised that. I just hope it's something
we can continue to hear about whenit's all put together and present them because
clearly it's something that we're not doing. It hasn't been done. And when
everybody sees you see an instance likeand what are they thinking about? Right?
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We are ways say that you don'tknow if you don't ask. You
know what I'm saying. You canyou can lock a kid up or whatever.
Other people come into crime, butyou when you ask yourself and what
were they thinking about when they didthat? You got to ask them to
find out. And wouldn't it beinterested in Michael Ina to hear somebody say,
you know what I did eight years? You know, had I done
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ten, I probably wouldn't ever engagein it anymore. Right, Or they
only made me do forty percent ofmy sentence, right, if I had
to do one hundred, I wouldhave known. Or you know, you
know the death penalty is out there, so that's why I ain't. I
ain't want to do this no moreright or whatever. It is, like
all of the things that people havebeen saying would work. You know,
I'm curious to hear if somebody who'sbeen involved in this says, yes,
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this would work right now, ifthey say it won't. If they say,
man, I wouldn't studying no adeath penalty, I don't care.
I had this issue or so andso shocked my mother or my sister or
my brother. Was nothing gonna stopme from shooting them they put more cops
out on the street. Yeah,all I did was sit and watch what
they rhythm was not And so ifthey tell you, if they tell us
(31:04):
this, I'm not saying that theyhave told us this, saying if they
do, you mean to tell meour answer, from a policy standpoint and
an intervention standpoint is to still dothe same thing. Now, I don't
say it's not that I don't believeI'm intelligent or sharp or smart. Hey,
I went to Lamoy and on Igotta be right, you know,
I came out of Lamore. Iconsider this, Mike, ain't consider this.
(31:30):
You mean to tell me nobody hasthought to do this, nobody prior
to this, And if not,why not? I know, ain't that
smart? The question would be why, Like in any other instance, we
would say, you have to talkdirectly to the people who are most directly
involved, not just the people whoare most directly impacted. And I know
(31:52):
that there are legal barriers here,right, because of course you might hear
this in the court of law duringsomebody's testimony on the stand if they are
on trial, and you know,maybe maybe not. We could just start
reviewing some of those court documents.I hadn't thought to do that until right
now. So let me make anote of it right right there. Yeah,
(32:13):
maybe maybe we could do that rightor maybe somebody has to do that
now. I will say, similarprojects like this have been done in other
cities. That's what I was wondering, But for me, they aren't directly
correlatable. Here's why. So NewYork has done a project similar to this,
but you got to look at thenumber of people in New York.
Now what they did. I thinkthey broke it down to like neighborhood.
(32:35):
I think it was maybe Brooklyn orsomething like that. But the number of
people that are there and some ofthe other dynamics. I'm talking about a
major metropolitan city sixty five percent black, county fifty five percent black. There
are unique nuances that have to befactored in. And so you can't just
take somebody else's day and say,well, this is what they said in
New York, but this is whatthey said in Chicago, and this is
what they said in Detroit, thisis what they say in New Orleans,
(32:58):
and say, hey, I knowthe same is true here in Memphis and
Shelby County. So some of thathas helped to inform how we structured our
project, but we're going to stilllet the data speak for itself. Wow,
what did New York do with theirdata? They, as I understand
that they shared it with law enforcementagencies, some of the community stakeholders.
They develop intervention strategies based upon thoseparticular projects. And so hopefully we can
(33:23):
get Memphics Shelby County do the same. And if they won't, we got
to ask them why not? Right, So some of they acted on that
information they got, and hopefully we'lldo the same here in Memphis. You
know. Yeah, Wow, that'sa lot. You know. I just
hope the ears are there when theinformation you know, is presented. That's
what you you hope. Like yousaid, it's if something's been done the
(33:45):
same way, you can't keep whatYou can't keep doing something the same way
expect different results. We know that, so it's got to be done differently
if we're getting same results than weare. And here's where I say to
y'all, I think is vitally impoorthat y'all's y'all continue to do what y'all
do to amplify this stuff, becauseI think that's when you see the response
(34:07):
from the power brokers and the stakeholderswhen they hear it, and it's not
just the echo chamber in one corridorother community, or it's not just this
radical, rabble rousing black pastor whois unashamed to talk about black issues.
Right. I think the more thaty'all share that stuff, then the more
that it will be amplified. Soif anybody wants to reference some of the
(34:30):
studies that we've referenced, you cangoogle Gotta Make your Own Heaven, which
is Guns Safety and the Edge ofAdulthood in New York City. That's one
of them. And the other onethat we looked at is called two Battlefields
Ops Cops and New York City YouthGun Culture. So that was done by
(34:52):
the Center for Justice Innovation. Right. Last thing I'll say is we've talked
to other similarly situated centers and justiceorganizations here in Memphis and Shelby County,
some of whom have done some wonderfulstudies right around victimization and victimhood things of
that nature. And when we talkedto them, like the Vera Institute for
Justice finis since they was like pastthe Fisher, Doctor Fisher, this is
(35:15):
fantastic and had we thought about itsooner, we would have done it the
way you did. You're trying todo it. Then it shouted all the
folks to work. Were you too, because you mention you're not doing it
alone? Right? Got some stakeholdersabsolutely, and that are making it happen.
So we look for those results andwe look forward to be a positive
thing for Memphis all the time inthis city. Man, you got an
incredible brain there. Man, yougot the incredible brain. Past Fisher,
(35:39):
we appreciate you coming by you man, uh as always so uh thank you,
thank you so much, Pastor Earl. Doctor Earl Fisher said, you
want to talk about Kendred, wecan hit on pop talk real quick because
we will have to. You hadevery bit of our tech know what was
(36:00):
going on with that man about that. I didn't forget about. Okay,
real quick as those pop Talk incorporatedin this discussion with doctor Fisher, Heydd
Drake, who's the winner? Ithink most people who are trying to be
objective are gonna say, Kendrick,I don't think is that what you think?
Absolutely? Yeah, yeah, AndI don't think it's much of a
(36:21):
question, and not simply because ofthe content, right, I think you
have to add content, you haveto add creativity, like how was the
content presented? I think Drake waskind of like true to form and didn't
really diversify as No, I wouldn'tsay. Now, there are people who
make that speculation we're safe, forinstance, like push ups cuts short at
(36:46):
the end and sounds similar to thesecond part of Family Matters, for instance.
Right, so people were saying Drakeput this one long distract together and
chopped it up to release it indifferent segments, right, I'm not saying
that he was late. I thinkthere's some bars that he spent that that
had to require some some effort andsome energy and some thought. And I
(37:07):
think the second verse in Family Mattersis probably his best. I think he
misses the mark though, because he'sshooting at so many people. He didn't
target directly at Kendrick. So mostof his most infamous bars are taking that
like asap rocky fans right, likewhy ross why? Well? I think
he probably seen it as as hewould say, twenty verses one and so
(37:30):
he's gonna try to get some ofeverybody, and I think he just underestimates
the magnitude of who Kendrick is andhow Kendrick gets down. So again it's
not just the content or the creator, it's also the creativity, and that's
just the strategy, right, Sofor Kendrick to drop Euphoria, come right
back and drop six sixteen, thenDrake finally drops Family Matters, and within
(37:53):
an hour Kendrick drops again and didcome before that? Right and meet the
grams may have been the most strategicpiece of battle rap in the history of
battle rep because not not just thecuts because some of that stuff might be
speculation and in your window and allof that, but the timing of it
(38:15):
and the texture of it. SoFamily Matters is Drake's true deform pop,
high vibe, witty, you know, a swaggy kind of right, and
Kendrick drops this very dark, soulful, contemplative concept record where you can't even
(38:37):
appreciate Family Matters because you're like,wait a minute, is he talking to
his son? Wait? Is thereanother girl out there? Right? Like
all of that, so he reallyliterally the energy, he sure did,
and then comes out with not likeUs, where I say out Drake,
(38:58):
Drake, So where everybody would havethought that Drake was gonna drop the song
that everybody's gonna be playing in theclub and all of that. No,
not Like Us is the song thatit's the summer anthem, and it is
straight West coast. Like you know, many say that Kendrick has a home,
he has a coast. Where doesDrake belong? Yeah, he's from
(39:21):
Canada. Does Canada have a sound? Most? I think most analysts are
saying no. Most hip bears aresaying no, it doesn't. And that's
why that last verse on not LikeUs is so potent, because it's Kendrick
accusing Drake of not only cultural appropriation, but Atlanta in particular, Like you're
(39:43):
trying to steal Atlanta sound. Sothat's why you went and got with Future,
That's why you got with Little Baby, That's why you got with Two
Chains and all this other stuff.And that ain't gonna work here, right,
And so again, I think it'sthe content, it's the creativity,
and it's also the strategy that givesKendrick the heads up. And I think
Kendrick is more representative of the broaderculture of hip hop music and has been
(40:07):
seen as such for a while.Think about it. At the height of
the George Floyd protests, were gonnabe alright was like the m Man and
that song is still streaming and Ithink it's surpassed a huge record number today.
Like Kendrick is always on the mark. But I don't think it's fair
to kind of paint Drake as someyou know, garbage artists right now.
(40:30):
I think he's meant, He's beenvery instrumental in him, He's meant something
significant to hip hop in the lastfew years, and you know, ghost
writing facts notwithstanding, I think hehas shown that he can rap bar football
with some of the best stuff.But when you start talking about this notion
of goat, you know, thegreatest of all time and who the best
and all of that, I thinksome of these other elements are brought into
(40:52):
the conversation, and so I don'tthink he is rightfully listed as one of
the tops of all time. ButI definitely think he deserves to be listed
as one of the tops of thisgeneration for what he's been able to do.
For sure, And you just mentionedpeople instrumental in hip hop. Diddy
has been very instrumental in hip hop. Probably you know, when we were
(41:13):
in middle school, high school wasreally the playlist for our upbringing, right
with a bad boy they just releasedthe video of him assaulting, beating down
Cassie in a hotel, him comingout with a weak ass apology. In
my opinion, what are your thoughtson this entire situation? And can Diddy
redeem himself? So I think theredemption part remains to be seen. I
(41:37):
know black folks can be forgiven,probably even to a fault. And I
think we suffer because we worship celebritiesso much that we set up these hypocritical
standards sometimes. And that doesn't meanthat I believe, especially as the pastor
that anybody is irredeemable necessarily, ButI think many people say the best apology
(41:58):
is changed behavior, and what wehave seen him do is unacceptable and indefensible,
right, And so I think there'sa level of justice that has to
be brought about, and some ofthat I think you leave up to the
legal procedures in so far as thecourt of public opinion is concerned. You
know, I think this definitely taintshis legacy, and I would say rightfully
(42:23):
so, because there's a certain standard, and I don't think people expect a
standard of perfection as much as theyexpect a standard of authenticity and consistency.
And so when you are out front, you know, kind of talking about
certain issues and even trying to setup some standard whereby you are demonizing the
(42:47):
people who are making accusations against you, only to come with documented evidence that
you knew what you had done andyou knew that it was indefensible. You
know, I think he would havebeen better off up front trying to make
some of these responses then waiting untilafter you know, the obvious was portrayed
(43:09):
before he did that. So Idon't know, and I don't think I'm
in a position to kind of gaugewhether or not he will be redeemed or
even what redemption in that particular contextmight even look like. I think people
are still gonna play bad boy music, and I don't think I'm objecting to
that. I think when you startdealing with black art and the black experience,
it is complicated and convoluted in someways that we need to allow people
(43:32):
to make decisions based upon how theyfeel convicted personally, and not impose our
personal convictions on other people's interpretations orexpectations. So I don't know, man,
Like I'm going to just like ascholar, right kind of wait and
see till some more stuff comes outbefore I draw my final conclusions. But
(43:52):
I know I can say at thispoint what he did was trash. His
apology was what you call weak assapology, right, and he probably should
have kept it. I don't evenknow if it was an apology to be
honest, as much as it seemslike some kind of strategy to kind of
like defend himself strategies on strategies withthis. Yeah. Yeah, you know,
as I guess, that's the wholematrix of entertainment. You know well
(44:14):
better, much better than I do. You know, at some point it
is beyond people trying to be theirauthentic selves and it's them trying to maintain
some manufactured persona. You know,I think anybody is subject to bad days.
But I think when you look atthat video, when you look at
(44:35):
what he was doing to young peopleaspiring to be in the industry and making
the band, I think you seea certain thread of consistency, which is
a particular type of arrogance, insensitivity, uberrisk and maybe a meglomaniac in a
sense. And I'm sure a wholelot of money and fame could do that
(45:00):
to you. And then maybe griefand trauma connected to his his upbringing,
Biggie's death. You know what I'msaying, Like, think about it,
You know, we don't. Idon't think we talk enough about the grief
and the trauma that is embedded withinhip hop culture. Right Like the street
cred that you get, you getbecause you've either killed, had somebody close
(45:22):
to you killed, or done somehard time, right. And I think
that's part and part of the matrixof the black experience. It's not the
totality of it. That's definitely anintegral part of it. And we don't
factor that in and what kind ofbehaviors that not only amplifies and maybe even
glamorizes, but at some point peoplemight feel requires it is required of them
(45:46):
and so and that's not no excusefor him doing that. Right now,
I don't want to do some psychoanalysis of him. I am saying.
I don't think for a second thathis close friend being shot and killed in
the middle of a hip hop beefdid not have some psychological trauma traumatic impact
on him, even as he wasable to rise as a hip hop mogul.
(46:07):
And so I think we we deserveas people, as human beings to
have those nuances added to the equationwhen we're trying to draw our conclusions on
what should and what shouldn't happen.But one thing is for sure, too,
thing is two things are for certain. We need to hear from Cassie,
(46:28):
yes, right, and and bythat I only mean we need to
center her experiences and not sent topuffies or diddies. I think right now,
because he is the more notable,he is the mogul, then I
think we're focusing more on him thanwe are on her when she has been
the victim. Now back to thevoices project. That don't mean we shouldn't
(46:50):
hear from him and the perpetrator,right right, he's the perpetrator. We
should we should hear from him.Let him speak for himself, right,
And this is probably why defense attorneysusually don't let their clients on the stone.
Trump did take the stand in hishush money try. I bet he
wanted to though, yeah, andit's a reason his defense attorneys didn't want
(47:10):
him to. Well, I thinkwe should focus on what it means to
support Cassie in this instance, whois obviously victimized, and so we can
kind of hear from her and allowher to direct the way some of this
conversation and dialogue. I not onlywant to hear from Cassie. I want
to hear from Mary J. Blige, who was there at the inception A
Bad Boy. I want to hearfrom Little Kim. Yeah. I want
(47:32):
to hear from Faith. Like youknow, I know they know where the
bodies are buried. I just Iknow they know things that will never know.
And I don't know if those ladiesfeel empowered at this point to come
out and speak against d D becausefor me, the loyalty has been there
since day one. But did theygo through any experiences that we don't know
(47:55):
about it? And we just don'tknow, right that. I think that's
right. We don't know. Weonly know the glimpses and the snapshots that
we've been given. And I don'tthink our culture right now is ripe for
dealing with complex issues. We oversimplifyeverything, so either you trash or you
(48:16):
treasure, right, But the realityis that human beings, all of us,
have angers and aspects of ourselves thatare unbecoming. And so I don't
know if Mary J. Blige,or Faith or you know, any of
them owe it to us to chimein on this, right, because I
(48:37):
don't think we've created a context andan environment where we can have a honest,
comprehensive and complicated dialogue where you holdpeople accountable for the wrong that they've
done, and you also don't throwaway every angle and aspect of you know,
horrible people could do good stuff.Good people could do horrible stuff,
(48:58):
right, And sometimes I think wecan inflate the two. We say either
if you horrible, if you dohorrible stuff, you're a horrible person,
or if you do good stuff,you're a great person. And I think
all of us got you know,Scripture would say, you know, we
have all been born in sin andshaped in iniquity, and so I think,
you know, all of us havesin. And that doesn't mean in
my mind that all sins are equal, right, Like like if somebody is,
(49:24):
you know, still in a candybar, that ain't the same as
whooping the hell out of a sistertrying to leave your presence in the hotel
and throwing stuff at it and kickingand all of that. Like I don't
condone that, you know, whatI'm saying, ain't signing off on that
that's trash, just trash. Behavior. Does that make him a trash person?
I don't know him, so Idon't know. I know I could
judge that particular instance. But ifwe're gonna start talking about like legacy,
(49:46):
if we want to start talking aboutwhat the whole bad boy movement was and
has been, you know, theytried to get Cameron to commentate on it
on See Any earlier. He didnot like the line of question. Yeah,
he didn't know he was expecting.But and I don't think he had
to do the Black System abbey likethat. But you know, I think
(50:06):
there's a way that could have beenhandled. But I think it's also true
to form to his persona and personality, you know, as we talked about
earlier. So I don't know,it remains to be seen slot to talk
about on that front. I'm muchmore interested in, you know, how
do we nurture and cultivate the typesof artists and entertainers that can be authentic
and true and represent the best lightof black folks and not just when the
(50:30):
camera is on. Yeah, yeah, all right, well, doctor Earl
Fisher, thank you so much forcoming on today on Mike Evans and The
Memphis Morning Show.
Mike Evans and the Memphis Morning Show, your double e Ena Esco here,
Mike Evans over there, And todaywe have a special guest in the building
for a second time, one ofmy good friends from the Loamorno and College
and senior pastor at Abyssinian Missionary BaptistChurch and activists in our Memphis community.
We're talking about Pastor Earl Fisher.Welcome, Earl Esco and my dear brother
(00:27):
Mike. Yes, yes man.Glad to be back. Thank y'all for
having me, and thank you forall that y'all are doing to keep our
people informed and inspire and entertained andentertained you know, we coming with it
every morning. And congress to you, Earl, because I saw you well
presiding over the lantern service. No, yeah, I was the keynote speaker
(00:48):
at our Alma matera for the backof Lord or lantern service. Yet that
was a wonderful experience. It's alwaysgood to be back at loc you know,
and so I'm back there all thetime. But most people don't know.
Like that was an answer prayer,like I had longed for that opportunity.
Really had to be able to sharesome spiritual perspectives to the graduates.
(01:10):
And so it was twenty one yearsafter my graduation. One, yeah,
because it's twenty twenty four and Igraduated two thousand and three. You graduated
in two thousand, two thousand,two thousand and one, two thousand and
one. Yeah, so yeah,I mean it was it was a fantastic
experience and encounter, and no wantto offer them some words of affirmation,
(01:32):
you know, talk to them alittle bit about the tradition of HBCUs in
the tradition of lamonn On in particular, and what it meant to be baptized
in that tradition, and then alsowhat it means to kind of take your
experiences from Lemonne and go out intothe world and try to be a change
agent. So shoot, man,they can invite me back every year.
(01:52):
Okay, I really did. Theyhad, you know, they had a
reunion choir. I saw that stageand Carter was like the director of some
of our class. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep. So
it was. It was wonderful,man, it was wonderful. Reverend Vincent
Jopplin Bennie Benny b Yeah, VinnieVincent. Uh. He offered up the
(02:17):
invocation and the benediction. Of course, the interim president, Reverend doctor Christopher
B. Davis was there. That'smy brother. So we had a great
time. Yeah. And for thosewho don't know what the lantern service is
what, Yeah, So it's aservice or ceremony. It's a ritual of
sorts that honest to graduates, butalso symbolically describes what it means to carry
(02:38):
the light. So everybody carries theselights or these lanterns down the street from
La moyn On to Metropolitan Baptist Church, and so that symbolizes like lamorna On
College being an institution or beacon oflightened the people who come through there being
enlightened and then being tasked with theresponsibility of carrying that light over into the
broader community and passing that light ontothe next She's just a wonderful thing.
(03:00):
You know. Ain't no place likeyou know, I passed the blackest church
in Memphysics. Ain't no question thatjust the blackest institution of higher education,
you know, in the city andin the county. And so I'm always
thrilled to be in partnership with them. I reflect on the transformation that I
(03:21):
experienced while I was there and whatit has inspired and allowed me to do
and equip me to do like this, and you too, you know what
I'm saying watching you over these years, my dear sister, just salute to
all that you have been able toaccomplish as not just the on air personality,
but you know entrepreneur Mike, andI would teasing you know you you
(03:42):
the boss around to give beautiful Alot of us like to be controlled.
See that. Wow, Well,pastor earl, let's put your what's your
doctor had? On your scholastic actbecause you are definitely in tuned with the
(04:05):
city of Memphis, with the communityof Memphis and trying to make efforts of
change here. And you know weoften talk about the crime and Memphis right
and solutions what can we do?And you're working on a project right now
called Voices. Break that down forthe city of Memphis. This new project
(04:27):
that you're working on, sure,and thank you for giving me an opportunity
to talk about A Voice project isabout vital observations on individuals criminal experiences and
stories. And so what we're tryingto do is get some direct testimony from
people who have been involved in violentcrimes and so a lot of times when
you hear that, people think you'retalking about the victims. We're not turning
(04:48):
away people's testimony if they've been victimizedby violent crime, but we are trying
to target and focus on people whohave been involved in crimes and who have
committed sh fans and so, havecommitted on robberies, have committed car thefts,
and things of that nature. Becauseif you look at the matrix of
(05:08):
criminal justice or criminal justice reform,or crime in public safety in Memphis and
Shelby County over the last several years, there have been a lot of speculation
as to why people engage in thesebehaviors. And it took me a couple
of years in conversation with a lotof community stakeholders, some governmental, some
(05:28):
non governmental, some faith based,some everyday people in the neighborhoods that I
frequent that there was an aspect missing, like as much as people would talk
about what to do in so faras response is concerned, higher, more
police officers, be tough on crime, zero tolerance, change the ball system,
(05:49):
change the sentencing laws. Nobody hadhad direct conversations that they had documented
from the people who have been involved, and so I felt like that was
a gap, and as a scholar, I wanted to be a social scientist
and try to fill that gap.So I reached out to, you know,
the District Attorney's office. I reachedout to some private lawyers who I
(06:13):
know, who I know have representedpeople who have engaged in these particular type
of behaviors, and of some ofthe other community organizations that deal with these
types of issues, and started todiscuss what it would mean to put together
some kind of process and some kindof project that would give us access to
the information that we needed to helpfill that gap. And so the Voices
(06:38):
Project was birth. We discussed itstarting a fall of twenty twenty three.
He tried to launch it in oneform or another in January, and because
of things that was happening with meprofessionally, because I took on another job,
I was doing another things things happened. Okay, busy body, Yeah
right right. I got to learnhow to say no more often. That's
a skill. That's a tough thing. That's a tough thing to do something
(07:00):
in that Yeah, see when youreferenced this when we talked to you before,
Like you referenced doing this before,right when the first time we talked
it was you kind of alluded toit. Yeah, I might have had
some I might have dropped some breadcrun Yeah, just in terms of you
know, what your concept of becausepeople do think it's a matter of adding
police bail system. But you mentionedthat, you kind of referenced it.
(07:23):
I don't have the producer here.If that would rewind, can we play
that the producer would happen the pastinterview while I was talking about what I
mean. I mean, Yes,these are common elements of the conversation of
(07:45):
crime and public safety and criminal justicereform. So any major metropolitan city in
the country, if you start havingthis conversation, Mike, somebody's gonna say
something about the number of police officersor what they would call the compliment,
which is the eye did at acertain number of police officers are enough to
tackle the crime issues in a particularcity or county, right, and so
(08:09):
in Memphis and Shelby County for thelast several years, especially under the Strictland
administration, there's a lot of conversationabout what that number was, whether the
numbers twenty five hundred police officers,whether there's two thousand police officers, and
what it would take to get tothat point. And I've been arguing for
a long time about the philosophy underneaththat. The philosophy underneath it is that
the way you stop violent crime isby locking people up. Arrest people,
(08:33):
lock them up, and then you'lldeter other people from engaging in crime and
criminal behavior. Well, there areall manner of studies that show that's not
the case. That if you wantto tackle crime, you got to tackle
poverty. So no matter how muchwe've tried to scream this from the mountaintops,
there have been entities and organizations thatcontinue to parade in front of the
(08:56):
media and continue to satch rate oursociety with the same subliminal messages of if
you want to stop crime, thenyou need to hire more police officers.
And the more I thought about thatnarrative, not just as a scholar,
but also as a pastor and asa person living in the city feeling some
of the same anxieties that people feelabout what has happened or what might happen,
(09:16):
And I started to figure out whowe weren't talking to directly, And
of course I know people who haveengaged in these things. Some of these
people who have done the survey,right, and it's an anonymous survey,
so this is not us trying tocompromise anybody's pending lawsuit, right, So
this would be we are aiming atpeople who are in what's called post adjudication,
(09:39):
so you've already been through the courtsystem, and don't forget now we're
not only dealing with or working withthe district attorney's office. We're working with
private attorneys, people who have defendedsome of the people who have engaged in
these behaviors. And so when Igot all of them to sign on,
people like Alex Wharton, people likeSamuel Christian, people like Carlossa. Shaw,
(10:01):
when I got them in the BenF. Jones Chapter of the National
Bar Association to sign on, whatI started hearing organizations say who had engaged
in work around this is we wishwe would have thought about it like you
thought about it, doctor Fisher,because people talk to victims rightfully. So
we need to get that documented experienceof how people encounter these instances where they
(10:26):
have been victimized through car thefts orthrough shootings or through armed robberies. But
we also need to start talking directlyto the people who commit them and stop
the speculation of it all. Wehave so many laws passed in memphisis Shelby
County, proposed in Nashville by statesenators and state representatives without ever really considering
the people who have been directly responsiblefor engaging in this behavior. And so
(10:52):
this is what this project aims todo. We are taking digital surveys for
now. We're going to do somein person interviews hopefully at the start the
next month, and we want toshare these experiences or this information. Can
we say when you say digital surveys, yeah, so that just means you
can click a link, you couldtake it online, right, And so
we're not we will do if somebodysays, bring me a hard copy survey
(11:16):
and let me fill it out onpaper, then we will. But we
felt like it would be more efficient, more easily accessible, and it's just
more anonymous when you can take itonline, right, And so you know,
we put together a digital survey sopeople can click a link. If
you want access to the link,all you have to do is email us
at ac SI to ABC at gmaildot com and put voices survey in the
(11:41):
subject line. That's a c sI to ABC at gmail dot com and
put Voices Service Survey in the subjectline. Or there have been media outlets
that have been producing stories about this, and so you can probably google Voices
Project Memphis or EU Official Voices Pricetoo, Yeah, and you'll see some
of that. Yeah, we're definitelygoing to send you out a link and
(12:03):
so people can share it that way. But we just want people to feel
confident and comfortable in taking this survey, because we know sometimes there's anxieties associated
with sharing your experience when you havebeen the perpetrator, and so we want
to create a space for them toshare honestly so that we can know.
(12:24):
We can stop the speculation. Youdon't have to conjure up the reasons why,
right. I have reasons based uponresearch and a study and an anecdotal
experience. But I haven't shot anybody. I hadn't robbed anybody. I hadn't
stolen any cars. So I can'ttell you what prompted me to do that.
But the people who have can tellus, and we can stop speculating.
(12:46):
We don't need any elected official tospeculate. We don't need any community
member or community organization to speculate.We are talking directly to those people and
starting to get some responses that aretelling I can't share them yet done?
Ye, well no, we almostat one hundred now, and so the
reason I can't share it is becauseas a scholar, you don't want to
(13:09):
share premature findings when you don't havewhat it's called a large enough sample size.
Right, So there are things thatare starting to emerge, there are
trends as we analyze it, butand I don't mind sharing what we have
with everybody when we finish the projectat all. As a number, what's
your goal? So I think thebaseline for the digital surveys is going to
(13:31):
be about two hundred. If weget to two hundred, but that's not
what we're aiming for, you know, we would like to have five hundred.
And if we get to a thousand, I'm gonna bless the Lord O
myself. I guess there's a degreeof people that would still be suspect of
doing that. You know, regardlessof how anonymous it is and how much
you put it out that it isanonymous, there's always gonna be that element,
(13:52):
like I know there's something like thisis why you work directly with defense
attorneys because their clients should try usthem so they can direct and some of
them have started directing some of theirclients who are posted judication now, people
who got cases pending, right.And I even had this conversation with Phyllis
Aluko, who is the public defenderand she'll be kind of a public defender's
(14:18):
office, and so you know,she was interested in the program, but
there were some things that she wantedthat I think would have been more directly
maybe even antatagonistic towards, like theDistrict Attorney's office. And so I'm like,
I'm down to do that for therecord, but it's not on this
particular project, right, So theidea of people feeling skeptical is reasonable.
Here's where I thought you were going, Mike, but you didn't. But
(14:41):
it makes me think about this.When we present our findings, I'm confident
that there will be people who willbe skeptical of it. And as a
scholar, I'm fine with that.Scholars are accustomed to having our information scrutinized.
It should be, because what we'reafter is the truth. But I
know there's a whole bunch of peopleout there, some in elected office,
(15:01):
some appointed to positions of high authority, some who have organized organizations and institutions
and they published stuff and we don'tscrutinize it. So I'm saying keep that
same energy. Yes, scrutinize theVoices Project. Also scrutinized the stuff that
comes out of the Memphis Shelby CountyCrime Commission. Okay, scrutinized the stuff
that Senator Brent Taylor pulls out ofhis under arm. He's talking about all
(15:26):
the time when he's talking about crimeand public safety and using anecdotal experiences and
using information that hasn't been disaggregated.And I'll give you one prime example.
He paraded around the notion that theTennessee Highway Patrol was doing a great job
to stop crime and catch felons.And they presented last fall something before city
(15:50):
Council, and it had findings fromJanuary to August, the Tennessee Highway Patrol
has had committed seventeen thousand and thenfive hundred traffic stops. Ten thousand times.
Out of that seventeen thousand, fivehundred they let the people go with
just a warning, which means nothinghappened. Seventy five hundred times they rode
(16:11):
a citation Okay, of those seventyfive hundred times, there was less than
three hundred times where somebody was arrestedfor a misdemeanor and less than fifty times,
less than twenty five times. Ithink it was like thirteen times where
somebody was arrested for a felony.So, now I think about this,
might think about demeaner. Seventeen thousand, five hundred stops. You get less
(16:36):
than three hundred and fifty arrests.Now, that don't mean somebody's convicted,
because there's a clearance rate in MemphisShelby County of people who are arrested,
and I think less than thirty threepercent of them end up being convicted.
So think about that seventeen thousand trafficstops, and you can't even get five
hundred convictions. You can't even gettwo hundred convictions. But what you did
(16:57):
do is get seventy five hundred ticketsabout one hundred and thirty dollars a pop.
It's supposed to a million dollars.None of it goes to Memphis and
Shelby County. But the narrative ofthis police in particular, is how you
stop violent crimes and how you catchfeelings has been seared into our minds such
(17:17):
that if somebody presents us anything thatlooks like that information and confirmation, like
we feel better now because the ratesof the crime rates going down in certain
areas, that that's been Yeah,but that's what I'm saying that, yeah,
that makes you feel good versus yeah, it's some information that you might
pull up that it may not makethe average person feel good, Like we
(17:37):
don't feel any better. Right.We often talk about this in the morning,
like we question the headlines, thestories, like as you should,
you can. You can look atdata in different ways. It's all about
how you present the data. Yeah, people say stuff like figures don't lie,
but liars do figures, right,But I think what we are discussing
(17:59):
is was confirmation bias. So theysay, for instance, if you walk
around with a hammer, everything lookslike a nail. So if in our
minds the issue is black criminals,then the answer has to be lock them
up. Now. Notice if westart talking about opioid crisis, right,
(18:19):
which was drug offenses, all ofa sudden, it's like, how do
you remedy this and how do youcomprehensively address this? It's a public health
crisis, but when it was crackcocaine, lock them up, right,
So you have this notion that massincarceration is the answer. So if you
walk around with a hammer of massincarceration, everything looks like a nail of
(18:44):
black criminality. It got to beblack criminals that are the problem. And
that's not always or necessarily the case. I would even argue most of the
time it's not the case. Butthat's how we've been taught or conditioned to
see it. What I hope comesout of this project, it's some concrete
data and information that, if nothingelse, gets us closer to the truth.
(19:07):
Even if the truth is you know, what the issue is, black
folks is acting crazing need to belocked up. Now. I don't think
that that's the case, and Idon't think that the numbers will bear that
out. But if it does,here's what you can guarantee for me.
I'll share what everybody and say,this is what it is, and we
need to make our adjustments accordinate.However, you know, however might if
it doesn't show that, if itshows us that people are saying, for
(19:29):
instance, what I need is aequitable education, what I needed was easier
access to better opportunities. It seemslike it all comes from poverty. It's
still tying back to poverty. Yeah, I mean, one thing you don't
find in affluent neighborhoods are a abunch of police officers and b a bunch
(19:52):
of crime and violence. So ifindeed the answer to crime and violence is
more police, show me where crimeis low but police are high. M
That's just that just doesn't seem tobe the case. But you know,
you talk to a lot of people, and you know, you know,
you know everybody when you put allyour information together, how do you feel
that I guess you can't really knowit'll be received. Let's just say,
(20:18):
uh in terms of implementing some ofthat information and data from your research,
Like, well, Chief David's lookat this, and you know, do
you think that they'll really, youknow, take it into consideration in a
way that's going to be positive forthe community. Like that's a great question.
And here's what I think about that. This is where community organizing comes
in. Right, This would beone thing, brother Mike, if I
(20:41):
independently started this project and just freelancedit, which was an option, but
that anybody who knows me knows that'snot my mo right. So this is
a group of project at this point, So not a question is who are
the stakeholders in this? And evenif you don't want to hear what I
have to say, you don't wantto hear what the district attorney has to
(21:03):
say. You don't want to hearwhat the Shelby County Office of re Entry,
the people who come out of ourcorrectional facilities and are trying to integrate
back into society. You don't wantto hear what DeAndre Brown has to say.
You know, you don't want tohear what the president of the Ben
F. Jones Chapter of the NationalBar Association has to say. From a
legal standpoint, So I ain't reallygive a damn whether you care about what
(21:25):
I have to say. Now,I'm a stand on whatever it is true,
right, Like Malcolm said, I'mfor truth no matter who's speaking it.
I'm for justice, no matter who'sfor or against it. But if
this is a group project, andwe've been able to organize this group of
stakeholders, you mean to tell methe City Council shouldn't listen to the findings,
the County Commission shouldn't consider the findings. Mayor Harris, mayor Young wouldn't
even look at this, then,I think that would say something about where
(21:49):
they stand. I don't think itwould say nothing about our energy and effort
to try to get to the typeof information that I think can be helpful.
If the Senator in Tennessee don't wantto listen to this, if the
state representatives don't want to consider thisstuff, I think we should question them.
And this is where again community organizingcomes in, because before we share
(22:10):
it with them, we're gonna besharing it in communities like White Haven in
Westwood and North Memphis and South memphisisconsideration. And because earlier you talked about
how we feel, right, andanybody who has done any type of therapy
learns your feelings ain't always facts.So if I share facts with you and
(22:33):
the facts are different than your feelings, what should we change? The feelings
are the facts. So sometimes wefeel how we feel because of the information
we've been given. If I giveyou some information, crime is down twenty
percent, right, So at somepoint you might have to say, well,
maybe it's not likely that I'm justgonna walk out my door and be
(22:55):
shot and killed. Now That doesn'tmean for those of us who live in
the these communities and in these neighborhoodswhere crime and violence are much more prevalent,
that we shouldn't be much more intune or alert. That's not what
I'm saying. What I am sayingis should we be putting together policies and
procedures and laws and legislation based uponfeelings or facts facts? So if and
(23:23):
when the facts come out because ofqualitative and quantitative research methods, how are
we supposed to respond? And I'mhere and I stand on this, and
I dare anybody you know not thatI can't be proven wrong, but I'm
gonna make you prove it. Whatwe see right now in our legislative and
(23:44):
political landscape is not people really divingdeep into data, even though we talk
about being data informed a data driven. What we do is take political talking
points that tend to come from thinktanks that are heavily biased in one way
or another again confirmation bias hammer lookingfor a nail, and then we shape
(24:07):
our legislation based upon what we thinkwe can share to the general public.
As a politician that would increase thelikelihood of me being re elected. It's
not about whether or not I wantto stand on what's true, even if
this is not how the general publicfeels. And then my job becomes to
engage and educate the general public suchthat the facts change their feelings. Instead
(24:30):
of doing that, it's much easierto just gauge your vice's feelings and then
tell them what you think they wantto hear and what you just said.
That's the way it's always been.This is something that yeah, what you're
doing now, this is something that'snobody's doing. You know what. It's
giving me my past six sigma experiencedvibes because you're definitely looking at it from
a quantitative and qualitative analysis, which, like you said, facts like these
(24:56):
are the facts. I could definitelysee you presenting this in Nashville as the
capital. I don't think the projectis done, so that's possible. I
definitely wouldn't turn it down, right, but we have to look at the
landscape of Nashville white nationalist congress rightheavily biased towards the GOP way of working,
which is, you know, wedon't really want to engage with black
(25:18):
folks like that, and so let'sjust go ahead and we know what the
problem is, and it's black criminality. Dismiss them, lock them up,
throw away the key. Right,but let's talk about Memphis and Shelby County,
so locally, right, these shouldbe the people who say, this
is the information we've been looking for. This is the information we want to
hear, and we want to dowhat we can not only to engage the
(25:44):
information, but when we can proveit to be valid, affirm it,
and implement this information into the broaderstructure of the plans and the processes and
the policies we're trying to pass.And that's not knowing how everything's going to
come out, because you're still inthe world. So yeah, notice I
haven't made any strong claims like Iknow we gonna see this. I know
(26:04):
you have it because he look,I don't know, right. Do I
have feelings? Of course, I'ma human being. Do I have premonitions,
Absolutely, and I have experiences intimes past from things that I study.
But as a researcher, you gotto do the best you can to
be objective and so I'm not tryingto shape this to fit whatever my confirmation
bias is. Hey, I loveto learn prove me wrong. But one
(26:27):
thing we know for sure and notdare anybody prove me wrong on this.
What we've been doing for the lastseveral years is not working. That's not
find the lie, that's the fact. Find that's the fact. So if
we keep doing the same thing rightand expecting something to change, then the
problem is us. So I'm saying, here's another element to the equation,
(26:51):
maybe a missing element. It's almostlike when you're working as an engineer or
when you're working as a mechanic,right, sometimes all of the stuff in
the system is fine. Just don'thave a spark club, right, So
nothing's working. So maybe this isthe spark club. Maybe this is the
conveyor belt. You're you're saying,you're the ones saying the world is around
right now, man, the worldis around. Believe me, because you're
(27:15):
right. Because this you're gonna lookat the numbers, you're gonnaok at look
at the carjackings and assaults, andthat's all the information. You're just using
the incidences that would you know,those things that have happened as your references.
No, well, not just that, because for instance, the Memphis
Police Department uses the things that havehappened. They document violent crimes. Right,
they can tell you the number ofThat's what all we got right now.
(27:37):
But what they don't share. AndI'm not saying that this is their
responsibility to share it either, becauselaw enforcement have different responsibilities than other researchers.
Right, I'm saying we have notheard from the people who have committed
crimes. How many times have weasked them? Yeah? Right? So
just think about it, think aboutthink about it from a healthcare standpoint,
right, And you could relate tothis. You've had a child before,
(28:00):
right, two of them, twoboys, Eli and Dallas. Right.
So imagine somebody coming up with healthcare laws for pregnant mothers but has never
talked to a pregnant mother. Wewould say this is crazy, right,
Like, how you gonna come upwith this, Like you don't know what
that experience is? Like, whywould you come up with policies without consulting
(28:23):
with or interviewing and documenting what apregnant mother says? Now, when we
see all male panels talking about women'shealth care, we say, what,
something's wrong with this? So whywould we be talking about law enforcement strategies?
Why would we be talking about answersto crime and violence without talking to
(28:45):
criminals. It just doesn't seem toadd up to me. And especially if
we consider something that we said,I think it may have been off air
like these people aren't. Most ofthem, I would argue, aren't like
some demons that cannot be redeemed rightlike they are people who oftentimes end up
(29:07):
in situations and circumstances where they feellike they have no other choice. Whether
that's true or not, we candiscuss when we get to find it.
But one thing's for sure or twothings for certain. This doesn't mean that
you shouldn't listen to what they haveto say about why they did what they
did and what may have been aremedy for them and others not to do
it again. No, a greatapproach and key stakeholders. I really think
(29:36):
that you know, once you aredone with the project, in attaining all
of your surveys, you may besurprised that. I just hope it's something
we can continue to hear about whenit's all put together and present them because
clearly it's something that we're not doing. It hasn't been done. And when
everybody sees you see an instance likeand what are they thinking about? Right?
(29:59):
We are ways say that you don'tknow if you don't ask. You
know what I'm saying. You canyou can lock a kid up or whatever.
Other people come into crime, butyou when you ask yourself and what
were they thinking about when they didthat? You got to ask them to
find out. And wouldn't it beinterested in Michael Ina to hear somebody say,
you know what I did eight years? You know, had I done
(30:21):
ten, I probably wouldn't ever engagein it anymore. Right, Or they
only made me do forty percent ofmy sentence, right, if I had
to do one hundred, I wouldhave known. Or you know, you
know the death penalty is out there, so that's why I ain't. I
ain't want to do this no moreright or whatever. It is, like
all of the things that people havebeen saying would work. You know,
I'm curious to hear if somebody who'sbeen involved in this says, yes,
(30:42):
this would work right now, ifthey say it won't. If they say,
man, I wouldn't studying no adeath penalty, I don't care.
I had this issue or so andso shocked my mother or my sister or
my brother. Was nothing gonna stopme from shooting them they put more cops
out on the street. Yeah,all I did was sit and watch what
they rhythm was not And so ifthey tell you, if they tell us
(31:04):
this, I'm not saying that theyhave told us this, saying if they
do, you mean to tell meour answer, from a policy standpoint and
an intervention standpoint is to still dothe same thing. Now, I don't
say it's not that I don't believeI'm intelligent or sharp or smart. Hey,
I went to Lamoy and on Igotta be right, you know,
I came out of Lamore. Iconsider this, Mike, ain't consider this.
(31:30):
You mean to tell me nobody hasthought to do this, nobody prior
to this, And if not,why not? I know, ain't that
smart? The question would be why, Like in any other instance, we
would say, you have to talkdirectly to the people who are most directly
involved, not just the people whoare most directly impacted. And I know
(31:52):
that there are legal barriers here,right, because of course you might hear
this in the court of law duringsomebody's testimony on the stand if they are
on trial, and you know,maybe maybe not. We could just start
reviewing some of those court documents.I hadn't thought to do that until right
now. So let me make anote of it right right there. Yeah,
(32:13):
maybe maybe we could do that rightor maybe somebody has to do that
now. I will say, similarprojects like this have been done in other
cities. That's what I was wondering, But for me, they aren't directly
correlatable. Here's why. So NewYork has done a project similar to this,
but you got to look at thenumber of people in New York.
Now what they did. I thinkthey broke it down to like neighborhood.
(32:35):
I think it was maybe Brooklyn orsomething like that. But the number of
people that are there and some ofthe other dynamics. I'm talking about a
major metropolitan city sixty five percent black, county fifty five percent black. There
are unique nuances that have to befactored in. And so you can't just
take somebody else's day and say,well, this is what they said in
New York, but this is whatthey said in Chicago, and this is
what they said in Detroit, thisis what they say in New Orleans,
(32:58):
and say, hey, I knowthe same is true here in Memphis and
Shelby County. So some of thathas helped to inform how we structured our
project, but we're going to stilllet the data speak for itself. Wow,
what did New York do with theirdata? They, as I understand
that they shared it with law enforcementagencies, some of the community stakeholders.
They develop intervention strategies based upon thoseparticular projects. And so hopefully we can
(33:23):
get Memphics Shelby County do the same. And if they won't, we got
to ask them why not? Right, So some of they acted on that
information they got, and hopefully we'lldo the same here in Memphis. You
know. Yeah, Wow, that'sa lot. You know. I just
hope the ears are there when theinformation you know, is presented. That's
what you you hope. Like yousaid, it's if something's been done the
(33:45):
same way, you can't keep whatYou can't keep doing something the same way
expect different results. We know that, so it's got to be done differently
if we're getting same results than weare. And here's where I say to
y'all, I think is vitally impoorthat y'all's y'all continue to do what y'all
do to amplify this stuff, becauseI think that's when you see the response
(34:07):
from the power brokers and the stakeholderswhen they hear it, and it's not
just the echo chamber in one corridorother community, or it's not just this
radical, rabble rousing black pastor whois unashamed to talk about black issues.
Right. I think the more thaty'all share that stuff, then the more
that it will be amplified. Soif anybody wants to reference some of the
(34:30):
studies that we've referenced, you cangoogle Gotta Make your Own Heaven, which
is Guns Safety and the Edge ofAdulthood in New York City. That's one
of them. And the other onethat we looked at is called two Battlefields
Ops Cops and New York City YouthGun Culture. So that was done by
(34:52):
the Center for Justice Innovation. Right. Last thing I'll say is we've talked
to other similarly situated centers and justiceorganizations here in Memphis and Shelby County,
some of whom have done some wonderfulstudies right around victimization and victimhood things of
that nature. And when we talkedto them, like the Vera Institute for
Justice finis since they was like pastthe Fisher, Doctor Fisher, this is
(35:15):
fantastic and had we thought about itsooner, we would have done it the
way you did. You're trying todo it. Then it shouted all the
folks to work. Were you too, because you mention you're not doing it
alone? Right? Got some stakeholdersabsolutely, and that are making it happen.
So we look for those results andwe look forward to be a positive
thing for Memphis all the time inthis city. Man, you got an
incredible brain there. Man, yougot the incredible brain. Past Fisher,
(35:39):
we appreciate you coming by you man, uh as always so uh thank you,
thank you so much, Pastor Earl. Doctor Earl Fisher said, you
want to talk about Kendred, wecan hit on pop talk real quick because
we will have to. You hadevery bit of our tech know what was
(36:00):
going on with that man about that. I didn't forget about. Okay,
real quick as those pop Talk incorporatedin this discussion with doctor Fisher, Heydd
Drake, who's the winner? Ithink most people who are trying to be
objective are gonna say, Kendrick,I don't think is that what you think?
Absolutely? Yeah, yeah, AndI don't think it's much of a
(36:21):
question, and not simply because ofthe content, right, I think you
have to add content, you haveto add creativity, like how was the
content presented? I think Drake waskind of like true to form and didn't
really diversify as No, I wouldn'tsay. Now, there are people who
make that speculation we're safe, forinstance, like push ups cuts short at
(36:46):
the end and sounds similar to thesecond part of Family Matters, for instance.
Right, so people were saying Drakeput this one long distract together and
chopped it up to release it indifferent segments, right, I'm not saying
that he was late. I thinkthere's some bars that he spent that that
had to require some some effort andsome energy and some thought. And I
(37:07):
think the second verse in Family Mattersis probably his best. I think he
misses the mark though, because he'sshooting at so many people. He didn't
target directly at Kendrick. So mostof his most infamous bars are taking that
like asap rocky fans right, likewhy ross why? Well? I think
he probably seen it as as hewould say, twenty verses one and so
(37:30):
he's gonna try to get some ofeverybody, and I think he just underestimates
the magnitude of who Kendrick is andhow Kendrick gets down. So again it's
not just the content or the creator, it's also the creativity, and that's
just the strategy, right, Sofor Kendrick to drop Euphoria, come right
back and drop six sixteen, thenDrake finally drops Family Matters, and within
(37:53):
an hour Kendrick drops again and didcome before that? Right and meet the
grams may have been the most strategicpiece of battle rap in the history of
battle rep because not not just thecuts because some of that stuff might be
speculation and in your window and allof that, but the timing of it
(38:15):
and the texture of it. SoFamily Matters is Drake's true deform pop,
high vibe, witty, you know, a swaggy kind of right, and
Kendrick drops this very dark, soulful, contemplative concept record where you can't even
(38:37):
appreciate Family Matters because you're like,wait a minute, is he talking to
his son? Wait? Is thereanother girl out there? Right? Like
all of that, so he reallyliterally the energy, he sure did,
and then comes out with not likeUs, where I say out Drake,
(38:58):
Drake, So where everybody would havethought that Drake was gonna drop the song
that everybody's gonna be playing in theclub and all of that. No,
not Like Us is the song thatit's the summer anthem, and it is
straight West coast. Like you know, many say that Kendrick has a home,
he has a coast. Where doesDrake belong? Yeah, he's from
(39:21):
Canada. Does Canada have a sound? Most? I think most analysts are
saying no. Most hip bears aresaying no, it doesn't. And that's
why that last verse on not LikeUs is so potent, because it's Kendrick
accusing Drake of not only cultural appropriation, but Atlanta in particular, Like you're
(39:43):
trying to steal Atlanta sound. Sothat's why you went and got with Future,
That's why you got with Little Baby, That's why you got with Two
Chains and all this other stuff.And that ain't gonna work here, right,
And so again, I think it'sthe content, it's the creativity,
and it's also the strategy that givesKendrick the heads up. And I think
Kendrick is more representative of the broaderculture of hip hop music and has been
(40:07):
seen as such for a while.Think about it. At the height of
the George Floyd protests, were gonnabe alright was like the m Man and
that song is still streaming and Ithink it's surpassed a huge record number today.
Like Kendrick is always on the mark. But I don't think it's fair
to kind of paint Drake as someyou know, garbage artists right now.
(40:30):
I think he's meant, He's beenvery instrumental in him, He's meant something
significant to hip hop in the lastfew years, and you know, ghost
writing facts notwithstanding, I think hehas shown that he can rap bar football
with some of the best stuff.But when you start talking about this notion
of goat, you know, thegreatest of all time and who the best
and all of that, I thinksome of these other elements are brought into
(40:52):
the conversation, and so I don'tthink he is rightfully listed as one of
the tops of all time. ButI definitely think he deserves to be listed
as one of the tops of thisgeneration for what he's been able to do.
For sure, And you just mentionedpeople instrumental in hip hop. Diddy
has been very instrumental in hip hop. Probably you know, when we were
(41:13):
in middle school, high school wasreally the playlist for our upbringing, right
with a bad boy they just releasedthe video of him assaulting, beating down
Cassie in a hotel, him comingout with a weak ass apology. In
my opinion, what are your thoughtson this entire situation? And can Diddy
redeem himself? So I think theredemption part remains to be seen. I
(41:37):
know black folks can be forgiven,probably even to a fault. And I
think we suffer because we worship celebritiesso much that we set up these hypocritical
standards sometimes. And that doesn't meanthat I believe, especially as the pastor
that anybody is irredeemable necessarily, ButI think many people say the best apology
(41:58):
is changed behavior, and what wehave seen him do is unacceptable and indefensible,
right, And so I think there'sa level of justice that has to
be brought about, and some ofthat I think you leave up to the
legal procedures in so far as thecourt of public opinion is concerned. You
know, I think this definitely taintshis legacy, and I would say rightfully
(42:23):
so, because there's a certain standard, and I don't think people expect a
standard of perfection as much as theyexpect a standard of authenticity and consistency.
And so when you are out front, you know, kind of talking about
certain issues and even trying to setup some standard whereby you are demonizing the
(42:47):
people who are making accusations against you, only to come with documented evidence that
you knew what you had done andyou knew that it was indefensible. You
know, I think he would havebeen better off up front trying to make
some of these responses then waiting untilafter you know, the obvious was portrayed
(43:09):
before he did that. So Idon't know, and I don't think I'm
in a position to kind of gaugewhether or not he will be redeemed or
even what redemption in that particular contextmight even look like. I think people
are still gonna play bad boy music, and I don't think I'm objecting to
that. I think when you startdealing with black art and the black experience,
it is complicated and convoluted in someways that we need to allow people
(43:32):
to make decisions based upon how theyfeel convicted personally, and not impose our
personal convictions on other people's interpretations orexpectations. So I don't know, man,
Like I'm going to just like ascholar, right kind of wait and
see till some more stuff comes outbefore I draw my final conclusions. But
(43:52):
I know I can say at thispoint what he did was trash. His
apology was what you call weak assapology, right, and he probably should
have kept it. I don't evenknow if it was an apology to be
honest, as much as it seemslike some kind of strategy to kind of
like defend himself strategies on strategies withthis. Yeah. Yeah, you know,
as I guess, that's the wholematrix of entertainment. You know well
(44:14):
better, much better than I do. You know, at some point it
is beyond people trying to be theirauthentic selves and it's them trying to maintain
some manufactured persona. You know,I think anybody is subject to bad days.
But I think when you look atthat video, when you look at
(44:35):
what he was doing to young peopleaspiring to be in the industry and making
the band, I think you seea certain thread of consistency, which is
a particular type of arrogance, insensitivity, uberrisk and maybe a meglomaniac in a
sense. And I'm sure a wholelot of money and fame could do that
(45:00):
to you. And then maybe griefand trauma connected to his his upbringing,
Biggie's death. You know what I'msaying, Like, think about it,
You know, we don't. Idon't think we talk enough about the grief
and the trauma that is embedded withinhip hop culture. Right Like the street
cred that you get, you getbecause you've either killed, had somebody close
(45:22):
to you killed, or done somehard time, right. And I think
that's part and part of the matrixof the black experience. It's not the
totality of it. That's definitely anintegral part of it. And we don't
factor that in and what kind ofbehaviors that not only amplifies and maybe even
glamorizes, but at some point peoplemight feel requires it is required of them
(45:46):
and so and that's not no excusefor him doing that. Right now,
I don't want to do some psychoanalysis of him. I am saying.
I don't think for a second thathis close friend being shot and killed in
the middle of a hip hop beefdid not have some psychological trauma traumatic impact
on him, even as he wasable to rise as a hip hop mogul.
(46:07):
And so I think we we deserveas people, as human beings to
have those nuances added to the equationwhen we're trying to draw our conclusions on
what should and what shouldn't happen.But one thing is for sure, too,
thing is two things are for certain. We need to hear from Cassie,
(46:28):
yes, right, and and bythat I only mean we need to
center her experiences and not sent topuffies or diddies. I think right now,
because he is the more notable,he is the mogul, then I
think we're focusing more on him thanwe are on her when she has been
the victim. Now back to thevoices project. That don't mean we shouldn't
(46:50):
hear from him and the perpetrator,right right, he's the perpetrator. We
should we should hear from him.Let him speak for himself, right,
And this is probably why defense attorneysusually don't let their clients on the stone.
Trump did take the stand in hishush money try. I bet he
wanted to though, yeah, andit's a reason his defense attorneys didn't want
(47:10):
him to. Well, I thinkwe should focus on what it means to
support Cassie in this instance, whois obviously victimized, and so we can
kind of hear from her and allowher to direct the way some of this
conversation and dialogue. I not onlywant to hear from Cassie. I want
to hear from Mary J. Blige, who was there at the inception A
Bad Boy. I want to hearfrom Little Kim. Yeah. I want
(47:32):
to hear from Faith. Like youknow, I know they know where the
bodies are buried. I just Iknow they know things that will never know.
And I don't know if those ladiesfeel empowered at this point to come
out and speak against d D becausefor me, the loyalty has been there
since day one. But did theygo through any experiences that we don't know
(47:55):
about it? And we just don'tknow, right that. I think that's
right. We don't know. Weonly know the glimpses and the snapshots that
we've been given. And I don'tthink our culture right now is ripe for
dealing with complex issues. We oversimplifyeverything, so either you trash or you
(48:16):
treasure, right, But the realityis that human beings, all of us,
have angers and aspects of ourselves thatare unbecoming. And so I don't
know if Mary J. Blige,or Faith or you know, any of
them owe it to us to chimein on this, right, because I
(48:37):
don't think we've created a context andan environment where we can have a honest,
comprehensive and complicated dialogue where you holdpeople accountable for the wrong that they've
done, and you also don't throwaway every angle and aspect of you know,
horrible people could do good stuff.Good people could do horrible stuff,
(48:58):
right, And sometimes I think wecan inflate the two. We say either
if you horrible, if you dohorrible stuff, you're a horrible person,
or if you do good stuff,you're a great person. And I think
all of us got you know,Scripture would say, you know, we
have all been born in sin andshaped in iniquity, and so I think,
you know, all of us havesin. And that doesn't mean in
my mind that all sins are equal, right, Like like if somebody is,
(49:24):
you know, still in a candybar, that ain't the same as
whooping the hell out of a sistertrying to leave your presence in the hotel
and throwing stuff at it and kickingand all of that. Like I don't
condone that, you know, whatI'm saying, ain't signing off on that
that's trash, just trash. Behavior. Does that make him a trash person?
I don't know him, so Idon't know. I know I could
judge that particular instance. But ifwe're gonna start talking about like legacy,
(49:46):
if we want to start talking aboutwhat the whole bad boy movement was and
has been, you know, theytried to get Cameron to commentate on it
on See Any earlier. He didnot like the line of question. Yeah,
he didn't know he was expecting.But and I don't think he had
to do the Black System abbey likethat. But you know, I think
(50:06):
there's a way that could have beenhandled. But I think it's also true
to form to his persona and personality, you know, as we talked about
earlier. So I don't know,it remains to be seen slot to talk
about on that front. I'm muchmore interested in, you know, how
do we nurture and cultivate the typesof artists and entertainers that can be authentic
and true and represent the best lightof black folks and not just when the
(50:30):
camera is on. Yeah, yeah, all right, well, doctor Earl
Fisher, thank you so much forcoming on today on Mike Evans and The
Memphis Morning Show.
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