Ed talks with co-authors Randal Pinkett and Jeffrey Robinson about their latest book, Black Faces in High Places: 10 Strategic Actions for Black Professionals to Reach the Top and Stay There.
The book uses examples, including those of Barack and Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey, TV-One founder, Cathy Hughes and Senator Cory Booker to demonstrate challenges they faced and showcases the tools they used to overcame them. Most importantly, the new book illustrates actionable items to help people of color stay successful and make systematic change.
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Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a discussion with co authors Randall Pinkett
and Jeffrey Robinson. Their latest book, Blackfaces in High Places,
Ten strategic Actions for Black professionals to reach the top
and stay there, is a guide to help navigate the
road to becoming successful and making change. Pinkett is CEO
(00:45):
of BCT Partners, a global multimillion dollar research consulting in
tech firm. Robinson is an entrepreneur and professor of business
at Rutgers Business School. The book uses examples including thes
of Barack and Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey, TV one founder
Cathy Hughes, and Senator Corey Booker to demonstrate challenges they
(01:10):
faced and showcases the tools they used to overcome them.
More importantly, the new book illustrates ten strategic actions to
help people of color sustain success and make systematic change.
It's in part of continuation of their first book, Black
Faces in White Places, that was released in Gentlemen and Welcome, Randa.
(01:33):
Let me start with you, why now why did you
all feel um the need to While it's not truly
a sequel, uh a need to do the second book, Yes,
and I call it the remix. And we wrote our
first book together, Black Faces in White Places, twelve years ago,
(01:53):
very different day and time. It was the era of Obama.
We all had this renewed sense of hope for our
society on matters of race. Fast forward ten years after
we released Black Faces in White Places, the Murder of
George Floyd uh in concert with a mod are Very
(02:13):
and Brianna Taylor and Sandra Bland and the list goes
on the COVID nineteen pandemic, which elevated conversations around inequities
and who was getting the virus, who's dying from the virus?
And and Dr Robinson looked at each other and said,
this is the time to weigh in again, because the
(02:34):
conversation about black leadership had elevated so significantly that there
was a moment that we were in the midst of
and we felt it important for us to weigh in
on the why black leadership matters. Hence Black Faces in
High Places. Jeff, let me ask you this, I want
to get into black leadership. But Randall said something interesting,
(02:54):
and and that is that you know, when you looked
at the times, felt the need to kind of visit
where we are. But there are a lot of people
who are suffering fatigue because there were thoughts of hope
and better and even prior to Obama, you know, each
kind of watershed mark of race, relations to equity, et cetera,
(03:15):
where we thought we were getting better, it always seems
that we get pushed back. Was it also a hope
that this was kind of a roadmap, if you will,
to continue that track. Certainly it was. And you talked
about setbacks, you know, the sixteen election was was a setback.
We didn't you know, I guess we could have kind
(03:37):
of predicted because of Randall's experience with with Trump, you know,
how far the country would go back, but it was
shocking how far the country went back eighteen and uh
and so we were we were searching for a way
to make an impact on on the sort of the
(04:01):
next generation, who's who's thinking about how they would chart
their way through corporations and entrepreneurship and and the social
sector and like and for for a lot of us,
there was this moment where we said, what's what's the
right combination of of things that we need to do
(04:22):
to really get to those those high places and then
to be able to change some of the patterns we
see around in our community. So so that was a
lot of what was in our minds as we know
entered in you all use some high profile African Americans
to kind of highlight the experiences of being African American
(04:44):
and in certain places often being um, the old saying
the raisin and the rice and having to deal with,
you know, being the black representation of um, you know
what our experiences are. If one person could do that, Um,
(05:04):
why the need to illustrate it that way, Randall was?
It was? It just an easy way for people to
kind of glean in and and and see that it
really happens to everybody and those who have become monumentally successful.
It's a great guide obviously. Yeah, you know, I'll read
a quote from the book to your question, edit from
(05:26):
President Obama. He says, a lot of times, America is
very quick to embrace some Michael Jordan or an Oprah
Winfrey or a Barack Obama, so long as it's understood
that you don't get too controversial around broader issues of
social justice. And that's the juxtaposition of this book. Uh,
it's not just about getting to the top. And there's
(05:49):
been lots of books about getting to the top. This
book is about getting to the top, staying there, and
pulling the levers of power and influence that are at
your disposal when you're at the top. Four issues to
Barack Obama's point of broader social justice and having the courage,
(06:10):
the intentionality, and being unapologetic about pulling those levers for
the benefit of the black community. In other words, we
don't want black faces and high places for the sake
of having black faces and high places. We want them
to find their voice, have their voice, have a see
the table, and make a difference at that table for
our people. Yeah, if isn't the real journey staying there.
(06:35):
I remember Steve Harvey talking about He told me once um,
and he used this analogy. He said, becoming famous is
getting on the floor and doing tin push ups, and
he said most people can do that. He said, staying
famous is getting on the floor doing a hundred push
(06:58):
ups and then somebody at says to you, when you
get to a hundred, lock your arms and stay there.
M hm y. Yeah, that's a that's a great analogy
and and it's what we what we found and talking
to um. You know a lot of the black professionals
and executives that we had a chance to talk to,
(07:19):
they probably would agree with Steve Harvey on that one there.
And so you have to have something more than you know. Uh,
you can't be, as they could say, a one trick
pom pony, right. You can't just get there and say, Okay,
everything's great. No, So what is it that you're bringing
to the table? Uh? And then what are you going
to do when you're there? Sure, you gotta take care
(07:41):
of whatever the organizational leadership needs are, but there's some
other things that you can do that you should do
that you have to contemplate. Uh. And and if you
get there and you haven't built relationships that you need,
that you don't have the people who are sort of
pouring into you giving you advice even at that level,
(08:02):
you're you're gonna be in trouble when you you face
different challenges. So that's that's part of the of the
understanding the journey, is that getting there is only part
of it. Yeah, Randall, here's what's interesting, um that you
all tackle And I'd love for you to kind of
touch touch on this a bit. The idea of finding
(08:23):
those who can help you navigate uh to the top
and help you navigate those waters when you when you
get there. Too often African Americans UM find it difficult
to find mentors and most importantly what we call sponsors.
Once you're in there and once you you know, get
to a place where um, you're beginning to make a difference,
(08:47):
talk to us about that environment. Absolutely, And it's important
to distinguish between a mentor, a sponsor, and an ally.
We say that a mentor is about your development, a
sponsors about your advancement. An ally is about dismantling the
barriers that impede your development and your advancement. And they're
(09:08):
very distinguished roles. One of the studies we looked at
for the book was by David Thomas, who was former
professor at Harvard not president of Morehouse College, and he
compares black executives to black managers who plateau, who hit
a wall and listen to the numbers of what he
found in his study and it's in the book. In
(09:29):
the early stage of their careers, black executives tend to
have about on average two mentors, black managers one and
a half, so they're close one and a half to two.
Mid career black executives have about two and a half mentors,
Black managers about one, So that's a bigger spread, one
to two and a half on average. Black executives and
(09:49):
their later stage of their career have two and a
half mentors. Black managers have zero point five mentors on average.
So what we're saying is the gap between black managers
who plateau and black executives only grows as their careers progress,
Which gets back to your question about the vital importance
(10:10):
at every stage of your career of seeking out those mentors,
those sponsors, and those allies, because without them, the data
tells us if you aspire to make it to the top,
that's your aspiration. In the absence of having those folks,
you won't make it. Jeff, what do we do? Um?
And I've seen this time and time again when people
reach and and we'll stay with corporate America, but this
(10:32):
is true of many corners. UM. You reach a point
where you're angry because you're not getting the mentorship that
you see the person next to you or behind you
getting UM and therefore you shut down versus trying to
really work at finding a mentor who may not look
like you. Right, Yeah, that was certainly the There is
(10:57):
there is the fatigue factor. You you're you've been fighting.
It feels like everything has been a fight, and then
you get to that point where you're you're, you're just
upset about the whole thing and you shut down. And
you know, certainly, I want to I want to get
to people before they get get to that point where
they they are shutting down, because shutting down does doesn't
help you, doesn't and doesn't help anybody else either. Um.
(11:17):
The point you made is is spot on that, uh,
you gotta think about having um, you know, mentors that
sometimes I'm not gonna look like you. But the problem
that some folks have in thinking about mentorship is they
have an old way of thinking about it. If you
were listening carefully to what Dr Pinker was just talking about, um,
he mentioned having more than one mentor, and that's the
(11:41):
that's the I'll call it the new school thinking. Old
school thinking is that there was one person who is
all knowing giving you all this advice. New school thinking
is you have more than one mentor, you have a
network of mentors. So um, it's okay to have these
mentors playing different roles, and so I mentor who looks
just like you, has a similar experience, whether they're inside
(12:04):
or outside the company, is a valuable asset, a valuable
member of your personal board of directors, and that's the
person who's gonna give you balance and give you some
some some UM mentoring in UM in in ways that
will be specific to you as a as a black professional.
But you may have some other ones who are inside
your company giving you advice about how to specifically navigate
(12:26):
that that company, and so that sometimes pushes it out
of our comfort zone. But there are a lot of
companies who are are being very proactive about this and
telling their executives, who are mostly white and mostly male,
you can't succeed in your bonus this year unless you
are mentoring somebody across difference. Those progressive companies are doing
something that is is exciting in my mind because now
(12:49):
you start to find those executives seeking out UM black
professionals two mentor and that UM you know as a
game change. Companies that are doing those kind of things
are are making a big difference. But is essentially you've
gonna you're gonna have to have more than one mentor
some of those moors are't gonna look like you, but
they're still gonna have some value they can give you. Yeah, Rather,
isn't that at the end of the day, when we're
(13:10):
talking about corporate America, UM, the win or lose I
have found is if the CEO of that company really
is genuine about diversity and their want to move forward.
You know, I speak to a lot of corporations and
you can see very quickly whether the want for a
(13:33):
diverse workforce is earnest um and by means of what
they do without a doubt. We do a lot of
work around diversity, equity and inclusion that at our company,
BCT Partners. And if I had a checklist of absolutely
essential ingredients for d E I success. Top of the
(13:56):
list is not just executive support and buying, but I
want to piggyback off your nuancing of it. It's them
having a real personal vested interest that their authenticity, their transparency,
their willingness to be uncomfortable uh or rather get comfortable
(14:18):
with being uncomfortable, to understanding the experience of those that
are different than them, and having that genuine inquisitiveness. That
is a game changer because it has a ripple effect
for their executive cabinet has a ripple effect for managers,
where we say diversity efforts go to die. Executives have
lofty ideals and managers are like you, I don't know
(14:39):
what you're talking about, and nobody gave me that memo.
So having that real commitment, and I've seen that at
our clients where the CEO showing up and showing out
and almost like the Maynard Jackson approach in Atlanta to
getting black business in the door, like I don't need
(14:59):
a policey, I don't need a procedure. I'm just going
to the pulpit and we're going to get this done,
and it gets done when we come back. The authors
talk about ten strategic actions they say will help you
gain power as you climb the ladder, and how economic
equity is key. The authors wanted to do more than
(15:33):
simply talk about climbing the corporate ladder or finding entrepreneurial success.
They wanted to share actionable ways to sustain being successful.
You all have put together UM ten strategic actions to
assist in in moving this along. Jeff, how did you
guys come up with with the ten and talk to
(15:54):
people about UM? You know an overview of what they
are and what they do through the ten strategic actions
come out of our interviews and and research on UM
these folks who have made it to the top. UM
we we we thought about the lessons we learned from
listening to them and talking to them about how they
(16:14):
progress and UH. The the strategic actions build upon one another,
so we we give some some foundational ones at the beginning.
For example, self determination is strategic action number one. You said, well,
what are you talking about self determination? Sounds like you're
talking about Kwanza. Well that that term self determination is
important because it's it has you have to know who
(16:37):
you are and know where you're going in order to
to make it to the top. You get up there,
and by the time you get up there, you're up
there at the top, and you haven't had those conversations
with yourself and figure that out, you're in trouble. UM
We we progress through a series of actions that build
upon one another, taking folks from building networks UM and
(16:58):
and building power and UH thinking about maximizing mentoring UH
forms of entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship all the way to figuring
it out ways that you can seek significance now and
the combination of the tent. I didn't go through each
each of the ten in that list, but the combination
of the ten really provides a roadmap of things to
(17:20):
do and to think about on your way to the top. Randall.
Part of what the book does is um which I
think we are in need of across the board as
we look at our continued fight for equality, our new narratives.
And one of the things that I find most interesting
is our inability sometimes to call to task those who
(17:43):
have been in place of leadership that maybe either have
fallen asleep at the switch, have no real want because
they have theirs I got mine, you get yours UM,
or who perhaps just don't know any other ways UM
to do in terms of changing the environment and the
(18:04):
game plan simply because they're stymied and they don't know
where to go. How do you see leadership and what
would you like to see differently? I love the question ed,
and you asked an earlier question that reminded me we
we cast a very wide net for those stories, those
new narratives, not just corporate leaders, but entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders,
(18:29):
faith based leaders, folks who run social justice organizations. We
profile a number of different people across a number of
different industries. And this idea of umbuntu, which we highlight
in the book is this African humanist philosophy that says
I am because we are, which really harkens to our roots. Uh.
(18:53):
It's an Afro afrocentric ethos that says I exist only
in a community of others, and I have a responsibility
to that community as well. We contrast that with the
Eurocentric ethos of I think, therefore I am, which is
a more individualistic versus collectivistic ethos that says I am
(19:15):
because I think, and I and responsible to me, and
I do for me, and you go do for you.
And we we play out that contrasting set of philosophies
and strategic actions six, which is called Leverage our Might.
And we open the book open the chapter by saying,
(19:35):
we often hear people say black folk can work together.
That's not the case. We can look across history and
see example after example the challenges. We just don't have
enough people who subscribe to this idea that we are
beholden to one another. And so we're trying to really
shift that paradigm that says no getting to the top
and staying There's not about what you do for yourself.
(19:57):
It's about recognizing that if we stand on the shoulders
of giants, we have an obligation to be giants so
others can stand on our shoulders too. That's what we're arguing.
How do we move it, Jeff, from cliche to reality?
Because part of my push against black leadership current day
(20:19):
is that a lot of what I hear is what
I've heard for twenty thirty plus years now. Uh. And
while I appreciate and salute the fact that they're out
front and doing UM, I sometimes think we've got to
figure out how to do a little bit more or
(20:41):
change that scenario. So what would you like to see? Well,
you know, you know it was interesting, UM. You know,
we if you go back historically, there was a point
in time in which we had as a community, UM,
you know, some choices to make. We we certainly have
use the political and policy system UM as our as
(21:04):
our primary means for for change UM, which was not
the only choice where and we certainly could have been
done doing some things in parallel to to that. I
think what we talk a lot about in the book
UM is about taking hold of the resources UM and
the opportunities and other other sectors and with other approaches,
(21:25):
including business, including entrepreneurship. Now, I don't think that's counter
the others, but I think it's it's it's the piece
that's been lacking in the in the last thirty thirty years.
UM that if we can increase our our economic might UM,
if we can harness the resources of the business community
(21:47):
and an entrepreneurship UM in addition to UH politics UH
and and and the legal and civil rights infrastructure, then
I think that complete package bring something. If we have
more control in the boardrooms and have more black billionaires,
(22:07):
we will see much more change UH in in the future.
And and again, our our you know, our stances is
to be inclusive. And but just to demonstrate that those
other roots UM have UH you know, a set of
set of skills. You got to develop, a set of
set of activities you've got to use, and we certainly
talked about those in the book. Go ahead, Yeah, I'll add.
(22:30):
I mean Jeff often cites this this very compelling statistic
that if we had parody of black CEOs in the
Fortune of five, we would have sixty five black CEOs
of fortune five companies. Imagine the difference it would make
if they are conscious as Black CEO is like the
(22:50):
kenn of Frasers and the Ursula Burns and the Kencinoso
we've cited in the book. And then I contrast that
with the massive we had sixty five Robert F. Smith's
in the entrepreneurial space. Who could say to the graduating
class of some a sp c U, guess what you
got no more debt. I'm just going to take care
of all your debt for Howard and more House and
(23:11):
Spellmen and north Krona a T. I mean, just think
of the transformative power of just those in both spheres.
That alone is powerful. This is I think, and I've
said this for a long time, and it's not anything
that I've come up with that people didn't understand. Certainly
King understood it when he was in the midst of
(23:31):
you know, his Poor People's campaign, um. And it runs
the gamut from the everyday man to the person who
you know runs a Fortune five company. But this has
been the path of most resistance, allowing us in those doors.
How do we fight to make sure that they understand, Uh,
(23:53):
the world will be better if economic equity is better.
It is not the American way. Yeah. So you so
you you said a lot in that question. Uh. You know,
for your first of all, UM, we were talking about
something that has to do with power, UM, power and
(24:14):
influence and resources, you know, the money, the financial resources. UM.
When we start talking about entrepreneurship or corporate America, uh,
and when we talk about philanthropy, foundations or or even uh.
You know, we recently looked at some of the numbers
of UM of black university presidents and you know, there's
(24:36):
different categorizations of universities. The American Association Universities a a
U is the sixties six top UM you know, universities
in the country. And you know this again small numbers,
I think the numbers for former university presidents, but those
four what they're doing on their university campus is amazing.
UM records University hasn't a new president, black man named
(24:59):
Dr Jonathan Holloway just created a new program that's going
to reduce the tuition for for families that are in
certain income categories, completely changing UM sort of the dynamic
about how who's going to school and how they'll be
able to get there. I mean, those are those are
the kinds of things that make way for economic inclusion,
(25:20):
and that is where everybody has a chance to access
the financial and economic levels in this country. It's not
just for a small number of people, is not just
for the middle class, but that everybody has the access
an opportunity. We talk a good game in America about
that's what we say we have, but it's not true
(25:42):
when we look at um all the disparities and inequalities
we see in America. To let me UM close by
asking you the interviewer one oh one book question, and
that is what would you like people to walk away
with after reading the book? And I should note I
I encourage anyone who has a young people entering the
(26:03):
workforce to get this book for them. I think it's
a great guide gives them because often our kids don't
know what they're walking into. And I think that this
is a good guy to say, hey, here are some
of the things that you'll face UM and and here's
some ways people dealt with those same things. So what
would you like people to walk away with? I hope
(26:25):
and it gets back to where we started the interview edit.
I hope people realize that I don't think I'm being
too grandiose in saying this, George Floyd's murderer was our
Rosa Parks moment. I mean Rosa Parks that we have
the benefit of hindsight, sparked the movement for civil rights.
But did people know that it was a moment when
(26:48):
it happened. I don't know. We're in the moment right now.
We're two years into the post George Floyd era and
we've all seen the heightened conversation and awareness of issues
of race. But we are going to look back twenty
years from now and ask the question, what did we do?
Because this is on our watch. This is on our watch.
So I'm hoping people take away from the book an
(27:11):
appreciation for we all find ourselves at some point with
choices of what we can do or not do. This
moment has to become a movement, but it will only
become a movement based on the choices we make today.
And we hope this book equips people with the tools
(27:31):
and the strategies and the roadmap if you're a professional
of how to navigate that and look back on your
career and look back on this moment and say you
made the right choices. Yeah, Well, Let's hope that the
people in the C suites and those in leadership positions
say amen to that. Gentlemen, always good to talk to
(27:52):
you with. Thank you, and appreciate that you put this
book together. Thank you, Thank you. The book, Black Faces
and High Places is available now one hundred is produced
(28:13):
by ed Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media.
Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our
editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at ed L
Gordon and on Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a discussion with co authors Randall Pinkett
and Jeffrey Robinson. Their latest book, Blackfaces in High Places,
Ten strategic Actions for Black professionals to reach the top
and stay there, is a guide to help navigate the
road to becoming successful and making change. Pinkett is CEO
(00:45):
of BCT Partners, a global multimillion dollar research consulting in
tech firm. Robinson is an entrepreneur and professor of business
at Rutgers Business School. The book uses examples including thes
of Barack and Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey, TV one founder
Cathy Hughes, and Senator Corey Booker to demonstrate challenges they
(01:10):
faced and showcases the tools they used to overcome them.
More importantly, the new book illustrates ten strategic actions to
help people of color sustain success and make systematic change.
It's in part of continuation of their first book, Black
Faces in White Places, that was released in Gentlemen and Welcome, Randa.
(01:33):
Let me start with you, why now why did you
all feel um the need to While it's not truly
a sequel, uh a need to do the second book, Yes,
and I call it the remix. And we wrote our
first book together, Black Faces in White Places, twelve years ago,
(01:53):
very different day and time. It was the era of Obama.
We all had this renewed sense of hope for our
society on matters of race. Fast forward ten years after
we released Black Faces in White Places, the Murder of
George Floyd uh in concert with a mod are Very
(02:13):
and Brianna Taylor and Sandra Bland and the list goes
on the COVID nineteen pandemic, which elevated conversations around inequities
and who was getting the virus, who's dying from the virus?
And and Dr Robinson looked at each other and said,
this is the time to weigh in again, because the
(02:34):
conversation about black leadership had elevated so significantly that there
was a moment that we were in the midst of
and we felt it important for us to weigh in
on the why black leadership matters. Hence Black Faces in
High Places. Jeff, let me ask you this, I want
to get into black leadership. But Randall said something interesting,
(02:54):
and and that is that you know, when you looked
at the times, felt the need to kind of visit
where we are. But there are a lot of people
who are suffering fatigue because there were thoughts of hope
and better and even prior to Obama, you know, each
kind of watershed mark of race, relations to equity, et cetera,
(03:15):
where we thought we were getting better, it always seems
that we get pushed back. Was it also a hope
that this was kind of a roadmap, if you will,
to continue that track. Certainly it was. And you talked
about setbacks, you know, the sixteen election was was a setback.
We didn't you know, I guess we could have kind
(03:37):
of predicted because of Randall's experience with with Trump, you know,
how far the country would go back, but it was
shocking how far the country went back eighteen and uh
and so we were we were searching for a way
to make an impact on on the sort of the
(04:01):
next generation, who's who's thinking about how they would chart
their way through corporations and entrepreneurship and and the social
sector and like and for for a lot of us,
there was this moment where we said, what's what's the
right combination of of things that we need to do
(04:22):
to really get to those those high places and then
to be able to change some of the patterns we
see around in our community. So so that was a
lot of what was in our minds as we know
entered in you all use some high profile African Americans
to kind of highlight the experiences of being African American
(04:44):
and in certain places often being um, the old saying
the raisin and the rice and having to deal with,
you know, being the black representation of um, you know
what our experiences are. If one person could do that, Um,
(05:04):
why the need to illustrate it that way, Randall was?
It was? It just an easy way for people to
kind of glean in and and and see that it
really happens to everybody and those who have become monumentally successful.
It's a great guide obviously. Yeah, you know, I'll read
a quote from the book to your question, edit from
(05:26):
President Obama. He says, a lot of times, America is
very quick to embrace some Michael Jordan or an Oprah
Winfrey or a Barack Obama, so long as it's understood
that you don't get too controversial around broader issues of
social justice. And that's the juxtaposition of this book. Uh,
it's not just about getting to the top. And there's
(05:49):
been lots of books about getting to the top. This
book is about getting to the top, staying there, and
pulling the levers of power and influence that are at
your disposal when you're at the top. Four issues to
Barack Obama's point of broader social justice and having the courage,
(06:10):
the intentionality, and being unapologetic about pulling those levers for
the benefit of the black community. In other words, we
don't want black faces and high places for the sake
of having black faces and high places. We want them
to find their voice, have their voice, have a see
the table, and make a difference at that table for
our people. Yeah, if isn't the real journey staying there.
(06:35):
I remember Steve Harvey talking about He told me once um,
and he used this analogy. He said, becoming famous is
getting on the floor and doing tin push ups, and
he said most people can do that. He said, staying
famous is getting on the floor doing a hundred push
(06:58):
ups and then somebody at says to you, when you
get to a hundred, lock your arms and stay there.
M hm y. Yeah, that's a that's a great analogy
and and it's what we what we found and talking
to um. You know a lot of the black professionals
and executives that we had a chance to talk to,
(07:19):
they probably would agree with Steve Harvey on that one there.
And so you have to have something more than you know. Uh,
you can't be, as they could say, a one trick
pom pony, right. You can't just get there and say, Okay,
everything's great. No, So what is it that you're bringing
to the table? Uh? And then what are you going
to do when you're there? Sure, you gotta take care
(07:41):
of whatever the organizational leadership needs are, but there's some
other things that you can do that you should do
that you have to contemplate. Uh. And and if you
get there and you haven't built relationships that you need,
that you don't have the people who are sort of
pouring into you giving you advice even at that level,
(08:02):
you're you're gonna be in trouble when you you face
different challenges. So that's that's part of the of the
understanding the journey, is that getting there is only part
of it. Yeah, Randall, here's what's interesting, um that you
all tackle And I'd love for you to kind of
touch touch on this a bit. The idea of finding
(08:23):
those who can help you navigate uh to the top
and help you navigate those waters when you when you
get there. Too often African Americans UM find it difficult
to find mentors and most importantly what we call sponsors.
Once you're in there and once you you know, get
to a place where um, you're beginning to make a difference,
(08:47):
talk to us about that environment. Absolutely, And it's important
to distinguish between a mentor, a sponsor, and an ally.
We say that a mentor is about your development, a
sponsors about your advancement. An ally is about dismantling the
barriers that impede your development and your advancement. And they're
(09:08):
very distinguished roles. One of the studies we looked at
for the book was by David Thomas, who was former
professor at Harvard not president of Morehouse College, and he
compares black executives to black managers who plateau, who hit
a wall and listen to the numbers of what he
found in his study and it's in the book. In
(09:29):
the early stage of their careers, black executives tend to
have about on average two mentors, black managers one and
a half, so they're close one and a half to two.
Mid career black executives have about two and a half mentors,
Black managers about one, So that's a bigger spread, one
to two and a half on average. Black executives and
(09:49):
their later stage of their career have two and a
half mentors. Black managers have zero point five mentors on average.
So what we're saying is the gap between black managers
who plateau and black executives only grows as their careers progress,
Which gets back to your question about the vital importance
(10:10):
at every stage of your career of seeking out those mentors,
those sponsors, and those allies, because without them, the data
tells us if you aspire to make it to the top,
that's your aspiration. In the absence of having those folks,
you won't make it. Jeff, what do we do? Um?
And I've seen this time and time again when people
reach and and we'll stay with corporate America, but this
(10:32):
is true of many corners. UM. You reach a point
where you're angry because you're not getting the mentorship that
you see the person next to you or behind you
getting UM and therefore you shut down versus trying to
really work at finding a mentor who may not look
like you. Right, Yeah, that was certainly the There is
(10:57):
there is the fatigue factor. You you're you've been fighting.
It feels like everything has been a fight, and then
you get to that point where you're you're, you're just
upset about the whole thing and you shut down. And
you know, certainly, I want to I want to get
to people before they get get to that point where
they they are shutting down, because shutting down does doesn't
help you, doesn't and doesn't help anybody else either. Um.
(11:17):
The point you made is is spot on that, uh,
you gotta think about having um, you know, mentors that
sometimes I'm not gonna look like you. But the problem
that some folks have in thinking about mentorship is they
have an old way of thinking about it. If you
were listening carefully to what Dr Pinker was just talking about, um,
he mentioned having more than one mentor, and that's the
(11:41):
that's the I'll call it the new school thinking. Old
school thinking is that there was one person who is
all knowing giving you all this advice. New school thinking
is you have more than one mentor, you have a
network of mentors. So um, it's okay to have these
mentors playing different roles, and so I mentor who looks
just like you, has a similar experience, whether they're inside
(12:04):
or outside the company, is a valuable asset, a valuable
member of your personal board of directors, and that's the
person who's gonna give you balance and give you some
some some UM mentoring in UM in in ways that
will be specific to you as a as a black professional.
But you may have some other ones who are inside
your company giving you advice about how to specifically navigate
(12:26):
that that company, and so that sometimes pushes it out
of our comfort zone. But there are a lot of
companies who are are being very proactive about this and
telling their executives, who are mostly white and mostly male,
you can't succeed in your bonus this year unless you
are mentoring somebody across difference. Those progressive companies are doing
something that is is exciting in my mind because now
(12:49):
you start to find those executives seeking out UM black
professionals two mentor and that UM you know as a
game change. Companies that are doing those kind of things
are are making a big difference. But is essentially you've
gonna you're gonna have to have more than one mentor
some of those moors are't gonna look like you, but
they're still gonna have some value they can give you. Yeah, Rather,
isn't that at the end of the day, when we're
(13:10):
talking about corporate America, UM, the win or lose I
have found is if the CEO of that company really
is genuine about diversity and their want to move forward.
You know, I speak to a lot of corporations and
you can see very quickly whether the want for a
(13:33):
diverse workforce is earnest um and by means of what
they do without a doubt. We do a lot of
work around diversity, equity and inclusion that at our company,
BCT Partners. And if I had a checklist of absolutely
essential ingredients for d E I success. Top of the
(13:56):
list is not just executive support and buying, but I
want to piggyback off your nuancing of it. It's them
having a real personal vested interest that their authenticity, their transparency,
their willingness to be uncomfortable uh or rather get comfortable
(14:18):
with being uncomfortable, to understanding the experience of those that
are different than them, and having that genuine inquisitiveness. That
is a game changer because it has a ripple effect
for their executive cabinet has a ripple effect for managers,
where we say diversity efforts go to die. Executives have
lofty ideals and managers are like you, I don't know
(14:39):
what you're talking about, and nobody gave me that memo.
So having that real commitment, and I've seen that at
our clients where the CEO showing up and showing out
and almost like the Maynard Jackson approach in Atlanta to
getting black business in the door, like I don't need
(14:59):
a policey, I don't need a procedure. I'm just going
to the pulpit and we're going to get this done,
and it gets done when we come back. The authors
talk about ten strategic actions they say will help you
gain power as you climb the ladder, and how economic
equity is key. The authors wanted to do more than
(15:33):
simply talk about climbing the corporate ladder or finding entrepreneurial success.
They wanted to share actionable ways to sustain being successful.
You all have put together UM ten strategic actions to
assist in in moving this along. Jeff, how did you
guys come up with with the ten and talk to
(15:54):
people about UM? You know an overview of what they
are and what they do through the ten strategic actions
come out of our interviews and and research on UM
these folks who have made it to the top. UM
we we we thought about the lessons we learned from
listening to them and talking to them about how they
(16:14):
progress and UH. The the strategic actions build upon one another,
so we we give some some foundational ones at the beginning.
For example, self determination is strategic action number one. You said, well,
what are you talking about self determination? Sounds like you're
talking about Kwanza. Well that that term self determination is
important because it's it has you have to know who
(16:37):
you are and know where you're going in order to
to make it to the top. You get up there,
and by the time you get up there, you're up
there at the top, and you haven't had those conversations
with yourself and figure that out, you're in trouble. UM
We we progress through a series of actions that build
upon one another, taking folks from building networks UM and
(16:58):
and building power and UH thinking about maximizing mentoring UH
forms of entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship all the way to figuring
it out ways that you can seek significance now and
the combination of the tent. I didn't go through each
each of the ten in that list, but the combination
of the ten really provides a roadmap of things to
(17:20):
do and to think about on your way to the top. Randall.
Part of what the book does is um which I
think we are in need of across the board as
we look at our continued fight for equality, our new narratives.
And one of the things that I find most interesting
is our inability sometimes to call to task those who
(17:43):
have been in place of leadership that maybe either have
fallen asleep at the switch, have no real want because
they have theirs I got mine, you get yours UM,
or who perhaps just don't know any other ways UM
to do in terms of changing the environment and the
(18:04):
game plan simply because they're stymied and they don't know
where to go. How do you see leadership and what
would you like to see differently? I love the question ed,
and you asked an earlier question that reminded me we
we cast a very wide net for those stories, those
new narratives, not just corporate leaders, but entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders,
(18:29):
faith based leaders, folks who run social justice organizations. We
profile a number of different people across a number of
different industries. And this idea of umbuntu, which we highlight
in the book is this African humanist philosophy that says
I am because we are, which really harkens to our roots. Uh.
(18:53):
It's an Afro afrocentric ethos that says I exist only
in a community of others, and I have a responsibility
to that community as well. We contrast that with the
Eurocentric ethos of I think, therefore I am, which is
a more individualistic versus collectivistic ethos that says I am
(19:15):
because I think, and I and responsible to me, and
I do for me, and you go do for you.
And we we play out that contrasting set of philosophies
and strategic actions six, which is called Leverage our Might.
And we open the book open the chapter by saying,
(19:35):
we often hear people say black folk can work together.
That's not the case. We can look across history and
see example after example the challenges. We just don't have
enough people who subscribe to this idea that we are
beholden to one another. And so we're trying to really
shift that paradigm that says no getting to the top
and staying There's not about what you do for yourself.
(19:57):
It's about recognizing that if we stand on the shoulders
of giants, we have an obligation to be giants so
others can stand on our shoulders too. That's what we're arguing.
How do we move it, Jeff, from cliche to reality?
Because part of my push against black leadership current day
(20:19):
is that a lot of what I hear is what
I've heard for twenty thirty plus years now. Uh. And
while I appreciate and salute the fact that they're out
front and doing UM, I sometimes think we've got to
figure out how to do a little bit more or
(20:41):
change that scenario. So what would you like to see? Well,
you know, you know it was interesting, UM. You know,
we if you go back historically, there was a point
in time in which we had as a community, UM,
you know, some choices to make. We we certainly have
use the political and policy system UM as our as
(21:04):
our primary means for for change UM, which was not
the only choice where and we certainly could have been
done doing some things in parallel to to that. I
think what we talk a lot about in the book
UM is about taking hold of the resources UM and
the opportunities and other other sectors and with other approaches,
(21:25):
including business, including entrepreneurship. Now, I don't think that's counter
the others, but I think it's it's it's the piece
that's been lacking in the in the last thirty thirty years.
UM that if we can increase our our economic might UM,
if we can harness the resources of the business community
(21:47):
and an entrepreneurship UM in addition to UH politics UH
and and and the legal and civil rights infrastructure, then
I think that complete package bring something. If we have
more control in the boardrooms and have more black billionaires,
(22:07):
we will see much more change UH in in the future.
And and again, our our you know, our stances is
to be inclusive. And but just to demonstrate that those
other roots UM have UH you know, a set of
set of skills. You got to develop, a set of
set of activities you've got to use, and we certainly
talked about those in the book. Go ahead, Yeah, I'll add.
(22:30):
I mean Jeff often cites this this very compelling statistic
that if we had parody of black CEOs in the
Fortune of five, we would have sixty five black CEOs
of fortune five companies. Imagine the difference it would make
if they are conscious as Black CEO is like the
(22:50):
kenn of Frasers and the Ursula Burns and the Kencinoso
we've cited in the book. And then I contrast that
with the massive we had sixty five Robert F. Smith's
in the entrepreneurial space. Who could say to the graduating
class of some a sp c U, guess what you
got no more debt. I'm just going to take care
of all your debt for Howard and more House and
(23:11):
Spellmen and north Krona a T. I mean, just think
of the transformative power of just those in both spheres.
That alone is powerful. This is I think, and I've
said this for a long time, and it's not anything
that I've come up with that people didn't understand. Certainly
King understood it when he was in the midst of
(23:31):
you know, his Poor People's campaign, um. And it runs
the gamut from the everyday man to the person who
you know runs a Fortune five company. But this has
been the path of most resistance, allowing us in those doors.
How do we fight to make sure that they understand, Uh,
(23:53):
the world will be better if economic equity is better.
It is not the American way. Yeah. So you so
you you said a lot in that question. Uh. You know,
for your first of all, UM, we were talking about
something that has to do with power, UM, power and
(24:14):
influence and resources, you know, the money, the financial resources. UM.
When we start talking about entrepreneurship or corporate America, uh,
and when we talk about philanthropy, foundations or or even uh.
You know, we recently looked at some of the numbers
of UM of black university presidents and you know, there's
(24:36):
different categorizations of universities. The American Association Universities a a
U is the sixties six top UM you know, universities
in the country. And you know this again small numbers,
I think the numbers for former university presidents, but those
four what they're doing on their university campus is amazing.
UM records University hasn't a new president, black man named
(24:59):
Dr Jonathan Holloway just created a new program that's going
to reduce the tuition for for families that are in
certain income categories, completely changing UM sort of the dynamic
about how who's going to school and how they'll be
able to get there. I mean, those are those are
the kinds of things that make way for economic inclusion,
(25:20):
and that is where everybody has a chance to access
the financial and economic levels in this country. It's not
just for a small number of people, is not just
for the middle class, but that everybody has the access
an opportunity. We talk a good game in America about
that's what we say we have, but it's not true
(25:42):
when we look at um all the disparities and inequalities
we see in America. To let me UM close by
asking you the interviewer one oh one book question, and
that is what would you like people to walk away
with after reading the book? And I should note I
I encourage anyone who has a young people entering the
(26:03):
workforce to get this book for them. I think it's
a great guide gives them because often our kids don't
know what they're walking into. And I think that this
is a good guy to say, hey, here are some
of the things that you'll face UM and and here's
some ways people dealt with those same things. So what
would you like people to walk away with? I hope
(26:25):
and it gets back to where we started the interview edit.
I hope people realize that I don't think I'm being
too grandiose in saying this, George Floyd's murderer was our
Rosa Parks moment. I mean Rosa Parks that we have
the benefit of hindsight, sparked the movement for civil rights.
But did people know that it was a moment when
(26:48):
it happened. I don't know. We're in the moment right now.
We're two years into the post George Floyd era and
we've all seen the heightened conversation and awareness of issues
of race. But we are going to look back twenty
years from now and ask the question, what did we do?
Because this is on our watch. This is on our watch.
So I'm hoping people take away from the book an
(27:11):
appreciation for we all find ourselves at some point with
choices of what we can do or not do. This
moment has to become a movement, but it will only
become a movement based on the choices we make today.
And we hope this book equips people with the tools
(27:31):
and the strategies and the roadmap if you're a professional
of how to navigate that and look back on your
career and look back on this moment and say you
made the right choices. Yeah, Well, Let's hope that the
people in the C suites and those in leadership positions
say amen to that. Gentlemen, always good to talk to
(27:52):
you with. Thank you, and appreciate that you put this
book together. Thank you, Thank you. The book, Black Faces
and High Places is available now one hundred is produced
(28:13):
by ed Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media.
Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our
editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at ed L
Gordon and on Facebook at ed Gordon Media.
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