S2 E21 - Brian Courtney Wilson

Ed talks with singer Brian Courtney Wilson. Since his debut album in 2009, the Chicago native has become one of gospel music’s rising stars. The University of Illinois graduate is seen as a leading “new” voice on the music scene. He is often compared to the likes of Donny Hathaway and Marvin Gaye. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with singer Brian Courtney Wilson.
Since his debut album in two thousand nine, the Chicago
native has become one of gospel music's rising stars. The
University of Illinois graduate is seen as a new leading

(00:43):
voice on the music scene and has been compared to
the likes of Donny Hathaway and Marvin Gae. His latest album, Transitions,
is a live recording scheduled to be released later this month.
I just want to say it's great to meet you,
and I'm gonna make a confession. For years I heard

(01:03):
about you. I heard everybody talking about you, but I
have for some reason, I'm a huge music lover. For
whatever reason, I had not heard your music though I'd
heard everybody talking about you, and recently I said, let
me check this cat out. Man, you are cold blooded.
Let me say that up front. Thank you, Thank you.

(01:27):
That's kind of you to say. And I love stories
like that. I love when stuff is revealed. Yeah, man, truly,
So let's dive into it. Out of the Chicago area
singing in church as a kid, Uh, I read something
that you were singing in the men's choir as a
kid with your dad. Talk to me about how music
hit you. Was it something that was inn eight and

(01:49):
you know you always loved it. Tell me about the
early part of music in your life. First of all,
let me say this, it's an honor to be here.
I feel like I'm when you said old blood, and
I feel like I had to thank you for having me. Man,

(02:10):
It's an honored to be here with you, Mr Gordon. Uh,
what I remember distinctly growing up in Chicago. You know,
we had front porches that the stairs led up to
the front. I remember growing up as a child in
those front porches for me were at the stage, you know,
and that's just how we played. I didn't have any
aspirations of being a star anything. That was just what
I always remember doing. Uh. Our male course there in

(02:34):
town decided that they wanted to add some kids as
for mentorship purposes. And so that's how I got introduced
to the to the male course. And I tell stories
about how I did not like it. It required that
we come in early on Saturday. Uh. It seemed like
they just did a lot of talking, so we could

(02:54):
have been done earlier. Then then prescribed. What I learned
later was that what they were doing is working class
black man in Chicago was not just singing songs. They
were fortifying their community, telling stories about what it takes
to get over, and reminding each other how they needed
each other to do it. And so I'm glad that

(03:17):
I was exposed to that, and prayerfully it informs my
music today. So you go to because you talk about
necessarily not having the dream early on as being a
singer on the stage, a star, etcetera, etcetera, You go
to the University of Illinois graduate pharmaceutical sales. I know
many in pharmaceuticals, and we should say the legal pharmaceutical sales,

(03:39):
because a lot of people say that they mean something.
But yeah, that um, at least the government turned your
head sanctioned pharmaceutical sales, right, But um, I know a
lot of folks in it. So that's that's traveling, decent money,
the whole nine. You could have made a career of
that where but you continue to sing. You know, you're

(04:02):
just singing. Imagine in churches, gigs, maybe around What was it?
What was the draw that says, you know, this is
not for me, My calling is over? Here. I'm gonna
call it a It was a disease I had. I
did not feel. Uh it was comfortable, but I wasn't comfortable.
And I'd like to tell this story. There's a poet

(04:24):
out of Chicago who was invited to a corporate meeting
we had at in uh Nashville. His name is Jackie.
I'll never forget it. He came and he was telling
stories about freedom and telling stories about owning your destiny.
And it was meant to inspire us to salespeople. But

(04:45):
the way I was hearing it was, Man, I have
something pulling that at me, a call pulling at me,
and I do not want to miss the opportunity to
realize it, to walk it out. And every time I
c J, I always try to tell him that. He's like, hiya,
thank you brother, thank you brother, but he don't because
he got to really understand how much it was hitting me.

(05:07):
And uh, but that that was probably the straw that
broke the camel's back, so to speak, and I had
to take a step out. Thankfully, I ran into people
who gave me places to to plan, to plan for
the harvest, and I realized it, Now you find your
way to Houston. One of those people that you run

(05:29):
into along the way is is Beyonce's father, Matthew Knowles.
But before we get into too that, I'm curious, uh
and and much of what I've read it says that
you were born again. And that's an interesting phrase to
me because it means different things to different people. Off, Sir,
give me what it means to you, and and and

(05:50):
what the metamorphosis, if any, was for you. I love
I love that question. I love that you're giving me
a chance to answer it because it gives me a
chance to before we get to Matt talk about the
church and the role of the Black Church in this
about that word metamorphosis. I love that you're acknowledging that

(06:12):
it means different things for different people. I think one
of the things that I want to point to is
how it reorients you to perspective and give you an
opportunity to see yourself differently as it relates to other people,
as it relates to the systems that we are part of,
the ways that you can make money, the ways you
can contribute to society. Um, that's the shortest answer I

(06:36):
could give for what born again means to me? And
then how you walk it out really like a child
like it's kind of spoon fair to you what that means,
and I mean that in the context of the Christian faith,
is spoon fair to you? And after a while, you've
got to kind of own it for yourself. Prayerfully, I'm
at a place now where I'm mature enough to own

(06:58):
it more for myself. With that as in UM and
I am out of place now where I can look
back over my life and see the people that helped
me walk it out, the churches that I was a
part of. We just celebrated two people that were in ministry,
have been in ministry for thirty years. In Houston. We're

(07:19):
needing Rudy Rasmus, and Rudy was a person that invited
me to the table to actually meet Matt because Beyonce
grew up there in that church and so there's no
there's no Matt without a Rudy. But there's no Rudy
there without UM. A pastor named Kirby John Cardwell that
gave him an opportunity to plant the church that he

(07:40):
planted there in Houston downtown. And then they saw the
need to meet UM to uh minister to the homeless
there that were sleeping on the steps of the church,
and that transformed their lives. There's no Rudy without we
need who. He meets Mary's and decides to uh uh.

(08:02):
He meets, he marries and decides to follow to church,
even though he grew up believing that church really wasn't
worth it. So there was a lot of metamorphosis if
you if you will, that will link to people deciding
to engage and and facilitate their transitions, if you will.

(08:27):
So Matthew was one of the early people who see
a talent in you. I've known him for many years,
and you know, he prides himself with the idea of
and we certainly saw it with his daughter and the girls,
you know, being able to kind of identify people who
he believed not only are talented, because talent is really
and I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but
talent is a dime a dozen in that they're just

(08:51):
a whole lot of talented people out here who are
blessed with a gift. It's not the gift, it's what
you do with the gift that really make you successful
or not. And I think he identifies the person he
believes will have the ability to carry that on. Let
me let me do this though. It's interesting how you

(09:12):
showed the dominoes of the people that led to the
next person as the next person. So let me ask
you the question. I'm sure you've been asked a number
of times that I always find it intriguing. Give me
some of the influences musically that created your style the
person you are today. I'm smiling because I'm thinking about

(09:36):
Donnie had to wait. How I was introduced to Donnie
had to weigh in college? Uh, Because I had a
crush on the girl and she said I sounded like
Donnie Hathway, and I didn't really know who that was,
and so I looked him up and the rest is
history in terms of someone who um showed me something

(09:59):
more beautiful than I had ever been held before. And
so that was probably one of the first models. Uh.
I had one of those records clubs, UH deals where
you paid a certain takes in the mail and one
of the taps I would get with the best of
Marvin Gate. And so listening to Marvin Gates thing about
this then lover lover as a boy as a girl,

(10:24):
crazy boy in college hit me a certain way, you know. Uh.
I remember listening to Leyla Hathaway even in school and
getting introduced to that. I was in school at the
time when we were transitioning to hip hop, and so
uh when I looked back on it, what I was

(10:44):
we were learning about being in your face with it
being real honest, you know, uh, giving voice to anger
even Uh. But also I remember it being a lot
more fun too ye popped in. Uh. Not that it's
not fun now, but it's different. It's different to me, Um,

(11:06):
very different. Yeah, yeah, that's that's probably another show too. Yeah.
I'll say this though. Um. Then that's married to my
church up bringing, where you know, I'm thinking about the
Whinings and how they would come on on Sunday morning
exclusively in Chicago. I don't remember us having a gospel station.

(11:27):
We had an R and B station that went gospel
on Sunday. So you were here Shirley Sees, and you
were here to clarc Sisters. You were here the Whinings
and to the point where you could almost take it
for granted until now I'm in this industry and realize
how much their voices raised me. It's remarkable because when

(11:48):
I started listening to your music. Obviously, here echoes of
Donnie and Marvin, but I also hear Marvin Whinings. I
grew up in Detroit with the Whinings. I also hear
Fred Hammond. You know. I I hear little echoes here
and I go, that's uh, that's Marvin we Um. I

(12:11):
asked this of many who I remember the first time
I felt like, Okay, you're kind of in the game now, ed,
you're off the bench. When I met my heroes, right, so,
I met it Ed Bradley, I met Briant Gumbala, and
they knew who I was. You know, talk to me
about when you started meeting the people you heard on
that radio on Sunday mornings in Chicago, and you knew

(12:34):
now that not only have I met them, but I'm
up here. What is that like? Thank you, thank you
for the question. I remember when I answered the industry.
One of the things I was most grateful for was
the opportunity to meet some of these people and just
say thank you, Just say thank you. You know, um.
And one of the things I learned to a man

(12:57):
is the truth that you were alluding to earlier about
allan Um and again, we shouldn't be dismissing about it.
It's from the Lord releast according to my faith. But
the people that have made it, the people who have
served as heroes, kept going and they're not quit And
at the end of the day, even they had to

(13:20):
believe it more than anything, and there would deserts of
loneliness if they had to walk through to get to
a place where they could bear some fruit that someone
like me could benefit from. And so though that was
the other thing that was like very gratifying to me
to see. So you're saying all I gotta do is
not quick, I gotta keep going. Um, of course you

(13:44):
you you developed skill sets that make you seem exceptional.
But that comes with continuing to apply your trade and
apply your craft and risk failure and not let failure
keep you on the ground. You gotta get back up
again and try again. You gotta reorient to your why.

(14:04):
Why are you doing this? What what is really motivating?
Is it fame, fortune or is it something deep inside colony?
And I got the chance to see people up front
who fought the good fight to hold onto their why

(14:27):
and let it keep them going with godless of circumstances.
Let me ask you two things that I've asked others
in your in your position, and I'm curious to to
your answers to it. One of them is the idea
of what is always asked of people who start out
in gospel. You know, the first person I remember hearing about,

(14:48):
and I'm sure it was you know, long before him,
was the pull of the secular world to to Sam Cook. Yes. Um,
I've had this discussion with myriad of artists, and I
remember Marvin Weinan's telling me, you know, his decision because
they were really pulling Marvin to stay in this lane

(15:11):
you have, you know, Kim Burrell. I mean we can
go down the list of people who record companies were saying, look,
you need to go on this side, you make more money.
Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. I'm curious for someone
who has done And I thought your cover of Inner
City Blues was spectacular, man um, even though Inner City

(15:33):
Blues had some of the tenants that you could quickly
married to gospel and religion if you needed to. Um,
is there a poll? Is there something in your head
that says, look, why can I do both? Where do
you sit on that fence. Do you do you have
even a want? Because Yolanda Adams said to me, interestingly enough,

(15:53):
she said, everybody thinks that you want to go secular.
Some of us don't want it. It's not a dream
of ours. So where are you on that? I love
that question, and I thought a lot about it. And
you asked me earlier my influences, and you heard me

(16:14):
say a lot of them were were where we were
deemed secular. M You know, those labels a lot of
times are used to leverage profits, so like we could
determine who we're going to sell to and why um
and I humbly submit one of the things I've been

(16:37):
defining myself as is someone that's the product of the
black music tradition, the gospel music that I've been exposed to.
I see as in conversation with other people in the
black music tradition, your Bill Withers, You're Luther ban Drosi,
Whitney Houston. The list goes on. And Aretha Franklin, who,

(17:00):
to your point earlier, is one of those people that
was able to bridge that gap. So I don't know
that I have a secular pool. I don't know I
don't really have a label that's been pulling me in
that direction, but they have not hindered hindered my choices
when I want to try to bridge it. For instance,
we did a cover of the classic classic to Me

(17:25):
be Real Black for Me with Lettuce and Uh, I
don't know. If you know anything about my label, it's
it's predominantly CCM, to be honest when you look at it.
So I'm sure they were challenged when I did it,
but they let me do it, and they resourced us
to do it. And that's what I want to continue

(17:47):
to do. I want to continue to do it that
defies label but helps me message my audience carefully, expand
my audience and ways where this message resonates. Umm. Despite
the labels, despite the reasons why people have put those
labels there, you do have one of those voices that

(18:09):
could easily go commercial. Um. And I just wonder where
we sit as not just the record label labeling things,
but as consumers. You know, we should be able to
do what Aretha was able to do masterfully. You know,
she can go do rock study and then go kill

(18:32):
the amazing Grace album and nobody thought anything of it.
You know, and you can go between the two worlds. Well,
my main thing with that has been being able to
do it with integrity and do it in a way
that doesn't cause too much, for lack of a better word, disruption.
You know. To me, it's very important that people be

(18:54):
able to lean in and trust what I'm saying, especially
given the messages I'm trying to deliver, and I don't
want to do anything that disrupts that. Sometimes you can't
help it, though, as an artist, when you're sharing all
of us in your heart, sometimes people are, oh, I
didn't know that was you too. You know, it's not
that it's not true, it's just that was a part

(19:15):
of me that you didn't know. So um from your
mouth to God's ears. As I topped my head a
little bit more. Given the compliment you just gave. Right
before I get to the new project, I want to
ask you about your inspiration as a writer, not a singer,

(19:39):
but a writer of music. Give me a sense of
you know, what brings the word and the song to you.
I want to esteem my listener. I want to encourage
my listener. I want to empower my listeners to do
the same for their neighbor. Do you see your writing
and your were um, your songs as something you right

(20:03):
or many that I've talked to you over the year
said I didn't write this, God wrote this. It's a
vessel for me. And I don't mean just gospel artists.
I've heard many artists said now that song was given
to me. I love that you said it. One of
my one of my favorite people in music who I
just did not just for his music, just for his

(20:24):
presence is Warren Campbell. We just had this conversation. He
founded Mary Mary that's you know, he worked with Heaven
d uh um m c Light. He is an example
of someone who's bridged this gap. I love that. I
love that and been successful. And we said the same thing.

(20:44):
These songs are revealed. They're revealed, and the onus is
to put your heart, put your skill set in a
place where you can you can see it and catch
it and h and prayerfully package it in a way
where it helps people. Yeah. I mean, and I think
some projects, Um, if you have any sense of faith

(21:06):
in you, you can tell our annoyance it. I remember
Marvin Gay talking about he and Ronaldo Benson, who co
wrote some of the songs he's I didn't write What's
going on? And if you listen to What's going on,
you do think maybe there was some divine intervention in
that it's such a masterpiece, you know, it's hard to

(21:26):
think otherwise. Um. Let's let's talk about the new album
Transitions and in what they sent me the pr information
that says celebration of live music and uh a jam
session like way um, and then it says the theme
is of change and how consistent and constant change is

(21:48):
and I I believe should be bless us with mercy
and and maybe we always find room room there is

(22:18):
compete restaurant. There's a difference to me in a live
recording and a church recording. There's a difference in performing
live and performing in church. For those of us who
have gone to particularly black churches and understand the difference
I'm talking about. Give me a sense of a why

(22:38):
you wanted to do the live piece of it, and
you know what you want listeners to take away, if anything?
You know, I think sometimes those of us who interview
used that question and maybe they're in an answer. Maybe
you just want people to take whatever it is for them. Well,
this is my my vision. I wanted to capture and exchange,

(23:03):
and I wanted to have people in the room who
could contribute to an exchange. And I think we did
that to a man. We had some beautiful musicians and singers.
The singers in particularly all are skilled enough to have
stood in my spot and let it. Um dankis Terray
was producer, helped us pull together uh the band members

(23:27):
who again, to a man, again could contribute in a
discipline way to an exchange. I didn't want to a
large audience in there because I wanted to really just
kind of focus on, UM, getting these getting the music out,
and then see if anything else could percolate. But yeah,

(23:47):
what we're playing and UM, I believe we touched on it.
To your question about what do you hope people take away,
I've kind of learned down through the years that what
I hope they take away is kind of immaterial. You know,
they're gonna they're gonna see it. You you want you

(24:09):
want that, you want it to live in the eyes,
in the hearts and the minds of the people that
see it, and that's gonna make it even more beautiful.
That's how you manifest miracle signs and wanders with that's it.
I do want to talk about transition, and I always
get stuck because the stuff means so much to me.

(24:30):
But one of the things I'm hoping people take away
is the fact that we may need to take more
time in the way we see one another. Uh, because
as we change, and as our neighbor changes, the you
can't make assumptions that they're the saints what you saw

(24:51):
even a second ago, even a minute ago. Add to
that the swift transitions of life, you know, to to
pull a phrase from my faith tradition, things change, and
I think we could stand to have a little more grace,
a little more mercy, um a little more intention around

(25:13):
making sure we generate peace when we encounter one another.
And So these glasses I have on, they told me
they're called transition lenses. And I had to tell you.
I had to tell you, Mr Gordon, I I had.
I was fighting getting these lenses right, and what that

(25:33):
meant as I was looking at my phone and realized
I can't really see what I want to see until
I got these lenses that, depending on my perspective, helped
me see better and give me a sense of peace
and sense of rest about what I'm looking at. I
think we need to allow for the fact that some

(25:53):
of our filters, some of the things we've used to see,
have to be changed as well, so we can encounter
one another in the right way and again according to
my faith tradition, so I can see the God in you,
because if I see the God in you, it may
help me deal with you in a in a better way.
Help me deal with you in a way that helps

(26:15):
us both build for the future that we want to see.
That's one that is mutually beneficial and devoid of exploitation.
I'm gonna in this question, um, count myself in this.
So twenty nine, two thousand nine, your debut album drops,

(26:35):
you have seen tremendous popularity, a tremendous popularity growth since then,
so a little over a decade. Uh, you really have
grown in the audience of faithful fans, which now you
can count me as one now a middle of that.
I came late to the party, bro, but I'm here. Now.

(26:57):
Give me a sense of how you're dealing with that.
I'm that can be heavy stuff, you know, Um, I
know you see it as a blessing. I know that's
what those of us who create want, but what what's
it been for you personally? It's got to be gratifying.
It is gratifying. Um. I think it comes with more

(27:17):
responsibility to you know you you're in places and people
don't always tell you they know you, you know, and
they know who you are and they know what you represent.
And so you have to you have to really be
aware of that. You know, um, not that you two

(27:37):
face that you're doing something different, but your actions bear
more consequence good and bad, and so you have there's
a responsibility that comes with it. Yes, sir, you have
to really discipline yourself in that regard. And but it's
I will say this though, I really think fame is

(27:59):
over rated. That's overrated. I would I would pray to
be fruitful, and I would pray that you could be
fruitful and have the resources to keep being fruitful. And
sometimes we are sold that fame is the way to
do that. And I believe to court, I believe Thomas

(28:23):
Dorsey wrote this song Nothing Between that that can be
a delusive dream where you're just striving for fame, thinking
that that's gonna make you fruitful, that's gonna continue to
give you the resource to to be fruitful. So that's
that's one caution I will give to people along the way,
one caution I give myself even what would you say

(28:46):
about it? Though, I would because I would consider you
much more prominent than me. I don't know about that,
but I would. I would say this, man, I think
there is a certain responsibility that um, the higher up
the ladder you go, UM, that you need to understand
that that responsibility climbs as you climb. And I think

(29:09):
that has been lost along the way. Quite frankly, you know,
I see some who have been given a platform, been given, service,
been given and I think that they either don't care
or don't understand that there needs to be internal growth
as you climb that ladder, not just your talent, not
just your numbers on. I g that, but you have

(29:31):
to grow along with that. And so I think that
is um, the real rub in fame. And uh, I
don't believe petition. You're there, so I don't know your
faith with tradition, but I do believe in the power
of intention, in the word and thought towards a person,
especially when that is coming from someone that's been there

(29:53):
and done that and seen it. I would ask you too,
to call my name to Heaven in that regardments to
go if you think about me, to help me to
uh to grow with it. I put it like that.
Will you do that? Absolutely? Brother, I've been doing that
ever since I've been introduced to you. Didn't even have
to ask. Man, you didn't even have to ask. Let

(30:15):
me ask you this in closing, and it kind of
speaks to where we were in this anyway, with all
that I see around us. And I'm not a doomsayer,
I'm not, but I also know that we have to
be realistic about what surrounds us. Yes, I don't. I
don't like what I see. I'm not talking about just

(30:35):
in Black America. I'm talking about the world, but most specifically,
I'm talking about Black America because that's what I love,
right That's where I live, that's where my family is,
That's where And so I'm wondering, how you see your
gift of song and your abilities, how would you like
that to impact us? I love the question. So there's

(31:02):
a story of my faith tradition about uh Jesus feeding
five thousand and it starts with a little boy in
his lunch to fish and five loads of bread, and
it was just as lunch. He wasn't coming out there
say hey, we're gonna get this in Jesus as we're
gonna feed everybody. But someone came and got it. He

(31:26):
was willing to give it away or forced to give
it away. And you know, he was a kid. They
could tell him whatever. But it turned into a miracle
that you and I are talking about today. That's what
I'm hoping is happening with my music. I'm praying that
it is put in the hands of our creator in
a way that feeds people, in a way to manifest

(31:51):
signs the miraculous, the wonderful, and leads us and nourishes
us towards great and marvelous things, not just for ourselves
before our neighbor. That's what I pray it's happening with you. Well,
I will say that um And this does not involve me.
I will say as I said, even before I knew

(32:12):
your music, I spoke of you with others who knew
your music. And I will tell you what Cecy and
I talked about when she was on UM And that
is that I will tell you that I have heard
those uh speak the idea that your music brought them
joy or got them through a hard time, or you know,

(32:35):
answer to prayer or whatever they were looking for in
a darker time, or even just brought joy in a
good time. So I think that what you are seeking
in that you are on that road. So you just
keep doing what you do. Uh. And as we are now,
I would hope at least acquaintances, if not getting to

(32:56):
the road to friendship. Please, though, I appreciate the rever
and call me Ed. You know you used to call me,
and you know you know, please feel free to call me.
And I will say that as a as a newfound fan, bro,
I already pulled it up and look, you made some

(33:16):
sales in the last two weeks. I've been buying this
stuff on Apple that encourage those who are listening to
go get the new piece. It is on the way man,
and uh, it's it's something that as I said, in
times of joy and sadness, you know, we need those
who bring not only the word, but just you know,

(33:38):
joy within their music. So Transitions is on the way.
A couple of the songs are available now and we're
gonna encourage everybody and push them that way. Man. It's
it's it's wonderful to meet you virtually, and I hope
very soon that we'll do this face to face. Yes, sir,
thank you so much for making room for me this morning.
It's an honored to meet talk to you and uh

(34:00):
us as a favorite of your man. I hope it
overwhelms you makes you cramp public. Another big thanks to
Brian Courtney Wilson. His new album Transitions drops October, but
you can stream a couple of the songs from the
album and preorder it right now. One hundred is produced

(34:27):
by ed Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media.
Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our
editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at ed L
Gordon and on Facebook at ed Gordon Media. Five