Safety in Numbers

When it comes to crime they say there's safety in numbers. That's why we packed this episode with guests, including Beverly Hills based entertainment lawyer Mitra Ahouraian who gives us a legal perspective into the Johnny Depp / Amber Heard trial as well as insight into the Mike Tyson and A$SAP Rocky incidents. And since we all love playing armchair detectives, we welcome Alex Weresow and Ben Crompton, creators of the new show "Who Do You Believe?" that allows everyone to do, just that.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Crime. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Real
Time Crime. I'm your host Lee Lamar and I have
with me actually back our friends sometimes oftentimes Dmitri and

(00:23):
now I deserve this sometimes because I was not here
last time. So it's true you've been demoted back to sometimes. Well,
I think that sticks. I think that that nickname resonates
with everyone anyway, so I would agree with that and
my little social slukes. Today, we've got a crazy episode
in the store for you. We've got a lot of guests, Like, uh,

(00:44):
there's a lot of guests today, so we're not gonna
do hot topics. We're just gonna talk about a lot
of big cases. Dmitri, how do you feel about this?
Not that you have a say yeah, no, can I answer? Now?
That's cool with you? Um, I like it because listen,
everybody wants to talk crime, right, That's why they're is this.
That's why there's a podcast, and that's why there's you know,
so many shows and stuff age. Everyone wants to talk

(01:05):
about it. Get some other people in here, let's get
some some different views and stuff like that and find
out what's really going on. That's how you solve cases.
So just so everyone knows we're going to be deep
diving into the amber heard Johnny Depp case. Again. We
are all captivated by this case. And if you're not,
I mean, no offense, but you don't really understand good entertainment. Um,

(01:28):
So we're gonna be talking with one of the biggest
entertainment lawyers in Hollywood who's going to tell us what
she thinks is going to happen at the end of
this case. We'll pick her brain about it a little
bit as well, and then we're going to get into
talking with two of the producers of ABC's Who Do
You Believe, which is a new true crime show. And

(01:51):
you guys, this is gonna be a great episode. I'm
very excited. Also, just let everyone know I'm going to
a visa literally right after this. I've never been to Europe.
I don't know how that's possible. Really, yeah, I know. See,
even Demitria surprised. What you look like. Your your world
traveler like you you've you know, so I just assumed

(02:11):
that you had been everywhere. Thank you. I'm actually been
living in a bubble pretty much my whole life, and
I've decided that i need to see the world. So
every episode. I'll be in a different place for the
next almost month. Hey, so, if you happen to be
a fan of the podcast and you live in Dubai,

(02:33):
I'll be there at the very end of my trip
doing a comedy festival. So if you want to come
meet up in person, let me know. And guys, let's
waste no more time. We got to talk about our
first guest, who is absolutely stunning and intelligent and successful
and I'm so excited she's on the podcast today. She's

(02:55):
a Beverly Hills based entertainment attorney. Her name is Mitra
are In. She's represented every type of player in Hollywood,
from actors, every type of player, including my ex Okay,
I mean it's like you knew it was coming, all right.
From actors, musicians, producers, movie studios, book publishers. Her longtime
clients have included Justin Baldoni, Oh I love him, NFL

(03:17):
player Ryan Claudy, the world famous Magic Castle. She just
reps the Magic Castle casually. That's pretty wild. She's done
deals for Larry King, Bill Maher Rain Wilson, Penn Badgeley,
Ja Shetty. Not only does she have firsthand knowledge on
a wide range of issues including intellectual property, copyright infringement, incorporation,

(03:37):
show business contracts, and sexual harassment plates. But she has
been closely following amber Heard's defamation trial. Why do I
say defamation every time? I'm not sure, I think because
after that one story, I'm you're afraid that you're gonna
say defecation. So I think you just kind of tweak
it defamation. It's it's the defamation defication trial. Sadly, it

(04:02):
is the deafamation death vaication trap. We should make a musical.
We should make a musical. Um, Okay, so you guys,
basically moral of the story is she's going to come on,
Mitra is incredible. She's gonna share some insight on the
Johnny Depp amber Heard story, and maybe we can slowly

(04:23):
or very quickly ask her about Mike Tyson and asap Rocky.
Let's see. All right, please, welcome to the show, Mitra.
How's it going. Hello, Oh my gosh, it's nice to
meet you. To me, just so you know, I've already
introduced you. I can just just imagine feeling very loved
with a very big, flattering introduction. We're so exciting, said,

(04:50):
but okay, you know, yeah, only only the best things,
only your biggest credits, all of it. They were Honestly,
I'm still learning how to read. And it was a lot,
so thank you. Um, you know, it was just like intelligent, successful,
gorgeous killing It worked with all the stars, but then
named them all, you know. And then there was a

(05:11):
gas when we got to the Magic Castle. There was
a bit of gasp from both of us. We gasped.
I was like, the whole Magic Castle is your client. Yeah,
I mean that's wild. For people who don't live in
Los Angeles, you don't know how legendary the Magic Castle is,
and that's a you problem. But but it is a

(05:35):
destination where it's worth coming to l A just to
go to the Magic Castle. I actually know it sounds crazy.
Hate magic. I have magic phobia. Well I know, except
for when I go to the Magic Castle because I
get so nervous that they're not going to finish their
trick and it just performers anxiety. It's performers anxiety. And

(05:56):
so every time I even went on a date with
this guy once and he hired a magician. Is a
long story, but I was like this, I mean, you're
not gonna get a second date. Yeah, surprisingly we're not
married anyway, Enough about me, Mitra, let's just jump right in.
Weird you're here? Sorry, go ahead? Do you feel good

(06:18):
about that one? To me? Do you know what? It
came to me? And I was just like, you know what,
that's gotta be seen? Sorry, go ahead? Oh boy, Okay,
he really would have had to pull a rabbit out
of a hat to get a second date. Okay, we're
moving on anyway. All right, Okay, I'm gonna go back
in the waiting room and come back. Guys are done
with whatever this is. Okay, I'm like interview, so sorry,

(06:42):
come on one this morning. Um, Metra, can you tell
us what is the latest with the Johnny Depp and
Amber Heard trial. First of all, this has been the
most amazing case to cover. Um, it's like so many
emotions happening. It's sad. Um, it's hard to see, you know,
a celebrity you know and love kind of airing it

(07:04):
all out like that. Um. There are times when he's
charming and funny and you know, and it's really kind
of hard to imagine that in order to get justice
a celebrity has to go through all of this and really,
Era all his dirty laundry. So as far as the updates. Um.

(07:25):
But so we started with the plaintiff's case, which is
Johnny Depp sued Amber heard right, and then of course
she countersued for the same thing for defamation for what
he alleged in his lawsuit, basically that she was a liar. Um.
And so he sues her for defamation. And defamation we
all know is like something that somebody says about you

(07:46):
that's negative, or somebody puts something in print that's negative. Um.
But for a celebrity, they have to also go beyond
that and show that they did it with malice so
maliciously meaning knowing it was, knowing it was false, or
not caring if those false. Um. So Johnny's lawyers kind
of started by, you know what I like to call

(08:08):
the character development phase of a trial, which is very
much like a movie. You're kind of introducing Johnny Depp
as the character. Um, you know, his childhood. It started
with testimony of his sister talking about when he was
a kid and was abused and also describing kind of
the learned adaptive behaviors that he picked up as a kid,

(08:30):
which is getting you know, kind of escaping from the
abuse or staying out of the line of fire, so
to speak. Um, and then sort of went through the
dynamic of their relationship with Amber being the aggressor and
the one that's constantly sort of poking at him, and
you know, even played some recordings of her admitting to

(08:52):
having hit him. I hit you, I hate you, sort
of stuff like that, and um. And then after that,
you know, they get to cross exam and him on
the other side, and that's when sort of the ugly
stuff comes out. So can I ask you a quick question?
So it's funny because we think that we know somebody,
especially when they're an active you think you know. So
the character set up is always quite fascinating because you

(09:13):
learned so much more about someone that you kind of
even though we know we know don't know them, we
think we do. Um, how do you think his team
did with his character set up? I think they did
a great job. They made him look really vulnerable. Sometimes
celebrities are really larger than life, and so you know,
and it's and like you said, it's really hard to
distinguish what we know about them as characters and what

(09:36):
we also project on celebrities as you know, this is
who we think they are, who we want them to be.
So they presented him as this, you know, this guy
who has had addiction problems but also created empathy around
that with his you know, sort of his abuse and
all of that, um and his struggles to get sober.
And so I think they did a really really good

(09:57):
job of humanizing him, and that's key when you're in
any lawsuit. Yeah. So, I mean I have a million questions,
but you know, I see him as Captain Jack Sparrow

(10:20):
on the stand. You know, he's so charming and he's
without even trying to hilarious. You know, his use of
language is so unique, and the fact that he even
when he's insulting someone, he's like, refers to her as
a slippery whore. It's like, what, you know, do you
think that these elements of charm will and his you know,

(10:41):
humor so to speak. You know, when he's correcting, um,
correcting them when they're asking, oh is that right, and
he's like, no, it's not best of luck, it's best
if luck. Yeah, he's good, but I mean, I mean,
he's a good actor. But I honestly, I'm like, wow,
this feels like they are shooting a movie that we're

(11:02):
all watching in real time, like we're all on the
Truman Show. But do you think that that sort of
element of charm and humor will help him in the
trial or do you think that ultimately people will see
through it or they won't be able to identify that
as as something that would help him in the trial. Yeah,
that's a good question. So you got to think like
a jury, right, so you are going to be here

(11:22):
for six weeks not able to look at anything because
you know, it's a high profile case, so you're not
allowed to really look at anything outside of what's going
on in that courtroom. Some of it's really boring. Some
of it drags out. I mean some of the questions
that lawyers have to ask are really foundational or you
know kind of no one cares in a sense, but

(11:42):
they have to kind of lay things out legally. So
it's you know, hours and hours a day. So if
I were on a jury, I'd be like, oh my god,
thank god somebody made me laugh or thank god I
saw like some emotion or some personality or something, because
you kind of need those moments, you know, of like
comic relief or entertainment. Um, so I can't imagine that
would that would hurt him. You know what's interesting too,

(12:05):
is that when stuff like Lea pointed out like like oh,
he's like, no, it's not of it's if like when
correcting those things, if I'm on a jury, if I'm
just thinking from a differ, from a different perspective, he's
correcting it to make sure that they get the smallest awards, right.
So in my mind, I'm like, oh, this guy's this
guy's a stickler for details. He's telling the truth. He's
making sure that everything's right. So subliminally, subconsciously, as it

(12:26):
goes on, I'm thinking, oh, he's telling me the truth
because he's corrected the Yeah, he's he's come off as
really credible, as authentic. Um as you know you believe him.
Um he was. I mean they really leaned into the
drug abuse and the alcoholism his lawyers did before the

(12:48):
defense even had a chance to bring it up, basically
getting rid of that surprise factor or that sting that
you know they're going to come in and say, well,
he was an addict, and you know, ad ex abuse
people and they block out, they don't know what they
do and all of that, but they leaned into that,
which made him super vulnerable and really credible, and I
think that that was that, I mean, obviously very deliberate,

(13:11):
but like you said, you know, he also senses when
they're trying to catch him in something he said before
and kind of twist and minipulate his words, so instead
of giving them the yes or no that they want,
he sort of is like clarifying, which is really smart. Okay,
so sorry, I just wanted to piggyback on something that
you brought up before, which was that if you're on

(13:34):
the jury, you're not allowed to be watching clips of
the trial online, you know, or check them out. It's
almost like you're in a quarantine again. Yep. But I
remember reading just maybe last week that one of Johnny's witnesses,
Georgina Dooders, was dismissed from the trial because she watched
clips of the trial online allegedly and because Amber Heard's

(13:58):
friend was watching in the courtroom. Man now she's Eve
Barlow has now since been banned from the courtroom because
of this um and also apparently her dramatic nature and
tweeting and texting from the front row of the courtroom,
which is something that usually people who are just friends
of someone on trial don't really have the privilege of
doing right. Um, but do you think that you know

(14:19):
this will hurt his case? Do you think that? Um?
I mean I read that it seemed like it was
going to be a blow to the case. But do
you think that he'll have enough to go off of
to win. Well, we don't know what her testimony was
going to be, and usually the testimony is like a
big piece of the puzzle, right the way they're going
to tell the story. Um, it didn't hurt them that

(14:39):
she did that, because you know, the judge even said
it was kind of obvious that they didn't know. She said,
I believe you guys that you didn't know that this happened. Um,
So that was okay, didn't kind of get you know,
they didn't get out of the good racist of the judge.
But in terms of storytelling, they're going to have to
find a way to kind of connect the dots without her. Okay. Also,

(15:00):
there is a rumor that Amber's lawyer quit. Is that true?
I didn't hear that. Okay, I don't think so, because
he's still the main there's two main lawyers. Um, and
you're gonna love it when I hit one of them.
His name's Rotten Born. Um, and everyone like you can't
when you're commenting on this and you just can't not
can't make fun of that. But those are the things

(15:24):
that you change. Yeah, does that not get change? Yeah? Yeah?
I mean so yeah, that's you know, he's in a
very public case and people cannot help but bring that up.
But um, but those two are definitely there. They have
obviously a team of lawyers, so there's a lot of
people that are also there that might be, um, you know,
involved kind of behind the scenes. Um, but as far

(15:48):
as I can tell, everyone's still there. Okay. So also,
just on the note of them continually bringing up him
being quote unquote a monster when he's drawn or on drugs,
and that he's an addict and that you know, Elton
John tried to help him get sober and he gets
aggressive when he's drunk and all these different things. I

(16:09):
thought that it was interesting that they were like, oh,
when you do drugs or when you get drunk with
Marilyn Manson. It's like he gets drunk with everyone, not
just Marilyn Manson. So I'm wondering do you think that
they keep trying to align him with Maryland so that
people's perception of him is that he is painted in
a more negative light. Because okay, one, because he was

(16:32):
I think he was convicted of abuse or play guilty too,
amusing a woman too, and just he's I mean, everyone
knows he's like weird, right, no matter, just yeah. Well,
I will say I was at Marilyn Manson's birthday party
five years ago, six five, and Giant Up was there,

(16:55):
Courtney Love was there, and everyone was quote unquote having
a good time. So um, but I would say probably
one of the more magical musical performances I've ever seen.
Not that I'm sure that must have been because you
don't drink, right, so that must have been quite an
event for you to be there with all those heavy
party ers just watching. Well, I mean, this is like

(17:18):
the story of my life. Okay. So so okay, Mitra,
you know, we have photo and video evidence of him
having bruises on his face, of her having bruises on
her on her face, um, of him saying, you know,
she like burst open the bathroom door and bashed his head,
and you know they have a very violent relationship and

(17:43):
it's super intense and filled with drama. I mean, at
this point, I don't know if I feel like I
really can tell who's in the right or the wrong,
because there's a part of me that's like, deep down,
if I look into my self, do I think that
Johnny Depp is just very charismatic and I love him
and so I just believe him more. Um, But then again,

(18:06):
I you know, Amber Heard did ship the bed and
leave it there, so you know, a lot of questions,
but how do you think this will turn out? So
I think a lot of people are sort of struggling
with what you're you know, what you're describing is we
love Johnny Depp. We don't want to believe that he
was the aggressor here. You know, today we have testimony
from a psychologist saying Amber Heard has porterline personality disorder.

(18:29):
And you know, she's clearly from the videos and the
audio that we're hearing, I mean, she's got a lot
of issues too, and she's causing a lot of this.
Their own marriage counselor described them as being mutually abusive.
So I think that's kind of like we recognize, you know,
we either some people have been or they know people

(18:50):
who have just been in these toxic relationships where their
traumas are attracted to each other and they can't get out,
like they are horrible to one another, but they love
each other. And it just sounds like that. So if
there's anyone on the jury that kind of knows people
like that or has been in a relationship like that,
or even is just watching the evidence, is like, you,
guys are both involved in this somehow, you know. So

(19:13):
that's going to make the case really hard for him
to prove. It's so interesting because she keeps filming him
when he doesn't know he's being filmed, and it's like,
are you doing that because you were trying to show
people the abuse because it's happened so many times, or
because you are trying to trap someone and somehow catch
them in a moment out of context, you know? I mean,

(19:37):
I just yeah, So so you don't so do you
feel like you know who will come out on top
in this case? I think that the jury is going
to be kind of tired of hearing all this after
six weeks, and they're gonna be I think there's enough
there to really say that they were both involved in
the abuse and there's different kinds of abuse, right, So

(19:58):
it's not just physical. There's a lot of you know,
emotional abuse and psychological abuse. I mean the kind of
the stuff you hear her saying about, like why would
you or want to work with you? You know, like
they they are a classy brand, like why would they
want why would they want you? Like stuff like that,
you know, or it's like it's super degrading and just

(20:18):
not a healthy, healthy relationships. So I think people are
going to see that and not be able to say, Okay,
this was a one way thing. Do you think there's
any way that she goes and testifies and just ruins
it for herself. You know, it's interesting they have, UM,
they have people like like you know, people study human behavior,

(20:40):
UM sort of watching her. She's been really good about
kind of having this very stoic, like straight face, trying
not to react to too many things. But there's people
that are observing her, you know, especially with the case
like this, when you have millions of dollars being spent
on legal fees, everyone's interpreting and analyzing everything that happens

(21:01):
in that courtroom, from every single juror you know, to her.
And I was watching this thing. Um it was actually
on air with this woman who was um like observing
her microbe expressions, and there was a moment where she
was expressing like contempt because just like one side of

(21:21):
her cheek was up like you couldn't even notice it.
So I think that if people, and I think people
kind of feel those things like they don't realize what's
happening necessarily, but that's how we kind of gauge people,
is like body language. So I think there's a lot
of ways where she can she can hurt herself, and
I think it's going to be an uphill battle for

(21:43):
her just because she's going second. We've heard so much
about her. Mm hmm. Okay, Tom too. Do you have
any final questions or can we move on? We have
a couple of moments with Mitra and I want to
slide in a couple of Mike Tyson questions, a couple
of eyes after hockey questions. Yeah, no, I want to
as well. Okay, awesome, Semitra. I know because we don't

(22:06):
have that much time with you, we also just want
to ask you quickly, what do you think is going
to happen with the Mike Tyson incident? You know, do
you see I mean, like, do you think he'll get
charged for punching the other passenger even though he was
the one being provoked? I think so. I mean, I
think physical is a whole another level. You know, that's
that's sort of you know, it's there's a separate line

(22:29):
for physical um, and that's that's battery. Um. And so
I think there's a criminal element. There's also federal like
federal laws when in the in an airplane. Um. And
so there's those kinds of laws that are specific to
being on board with a plane where people can't really
escape and you're you know, threatening the lives of other people. UM.

(22:52):
So there's an issue with that, and people take that
really seriously because of not only terrorism, but because of
the stuff we've seen with the mask bandate and people
getting kind of aggressive with flight attendants. UM. And then
of course, you know, the guy that got beat up
is going to sue Mike Tyson and get a lot
of money. M hmm. Do you think Mike Tyson will

(23:15):
have will be eligible to counter sue. I don't know.
I mean, I think I'll certainly try because a lot
of times these things happen, things people countersuit to kind
of protect their image. But it's probably something that's going
to settle that we might not even hear about. Mm hmm.
And do you think that this will get Mike Tyson

(23:36):
on some sort of like no fly list or does
hee kind of walk around scotfree after this? I mean
this also is really interesting. Yeah, I mean this also
feels reminiscent of Will Smith and Chris Rock. It's like,
even though Chris Rock didn't press any charges, Will Smith
did face a lot of consequences and he's not allowed
back at the OSCARS for ten years. Yeah. So with

(24:01):
Mike Tyson, I mean, no finalists. I don't know what
the rules are around that specifically, but definitely not whatever
that airline was. And also Mike Tyson should be flying
private anyway because he's Mike Tyson. Don't shots fired? Shots fired? Yeah?
You know what his thought when he punched the guy
in the face is probably like, why am I still

(24:22):
flying commercial? Right? How did it here? Yeah? Let me
make sure I never have to fly commercial again. I
know a way. I'm only one row away from a
guy like this commander right, dear lord, that Mike Tyson.
It's just it's weird because when you're that famous, I
didn't even know you could fly commercial. How do you

(24:45):
walk through the airport? It's rough, Yeah, it is rough.
I mean I have a lot of clients obviously who
you know, are flying because the projects that they work
on are not paying for private planes. They're typically paying
for it for class trouble, and so they're all Most celebrities,
unless they're arranging or going through something other than work,

(25:07):
you might catch them in an airport at some point.
So that's why you see people with bodyguards. I guess
my cousin doesn't need a bodyguard, right hilarious is an
extra fee for being his own bodyguard, right, Yeah. So
if you wanna catch a celebrity, just hang out at
L a X all day you might see one. Yeah.

(25:27):
And lastly, just real quick, so we want to ask
about the asap Rocky arrest. Do you think that he
knew or that we knew that this was coming when
he landed back in the States after all the drama
with him in Rihanna and their little vacation after the
whole cheating incident. I don't think so. Um, because usually

(25:49):
when something like that happens, people call the cops. You know,
people do something right away. Why didn't Why weren't the
cops called in that moment, especially if there was an injury? Right, So,
now we're months later, months down the line, which always
makes the cop, the police's case a lot harder anyway,
because you don't really have the evidence that you had before.

(26:10):
You're not right there on the scene where people are
fresh with their memories. Um. So, I mean, and I
also think anytime you have someone in the press living
their best life and someone's like, now you're out there
living your best life and you try to shoot me, No,
it's a little damper on things. Yeah, that's a good

(26:31):
way of putting it. Yeah, boy, I mean all right, well, Dmitri,
do you have any final questions? Real quick? Is there
any has there ever been in a case where you're
representing somebody and you're like, I cannot touch this. I'm
not doing this for either moral reason or you and
you don't have to tell us what it was. But
is the one where you're just like, I'm out of here.

(26:53):
I've I've actually had to let go of clients because
I felt like they were they were the problem. Um
in a lot of situations. Yeah, it was. It just
kind of became clear that like, this is you. This
is not right now, It's not me, it's you. Um.

(27:14):
But yeah, and you know, I'm really lucky. I have
my own firm and I started it because I want
to work with people I love and I believe in.
I work with a lot of artists and um and
producers who want to change the world, and there for
the most part, really good people. So I kinda I'm
I'm lucky to be able to sort of pass on
people that that I'm like, yeah, you're not. Like. There

(27:35):
was one guy. Remember I can say this because he's
not a client, but I just remember like the first
phone call we had, he was just going like he
had a temper problem. He was just kind of like
it was it was bad, And I was like, I'm
I can see what I'm going to be dealing with
for months and no, thank you. It's really cool. Yeah,

(27:57):
no one could pay you enough. They're just people. No
one can pay be enough. Yeah, well I don't have
a law degree, but you could pay me enough to
do nothing for you. Mitro, will you wrap me? You're
so cool? I love it. I love comedians. I have
a couple of comedian clients and you guys, you guys
are awesome. Oh my god, Well we could talk offline

(28:18):
about that, but are you planning crimes? I mean you
know me? Yeah, Mitra, this has been incredible. Thank you
so much for bringing your expertise, your insight, and your
humor today to the podcast. We appreciate you so much.
And is there anything you want the audience to know
or if you want them to follow you online or
anything like that? Um My Instagram and Twitter Metra e

(28:40):
s Q, so if you want to follow me there.
I also do a lot of analysis on the Johnny
Depp case like on TV, so I post that stuff. Um,
if you want to follow that more then yeah? Would
you rather represent Johnny or Amber? God? I mean, come on,
no brainer. Johnny Depp who want to be working with

(29:01):
every single day and like you know, for months and months.
So yeahing. Well, thank you so much for coming on
the podcast. You are amazing and we so appreciate your
insights today than anytime. Guys, be careful what you wish for.

(29:22):
You know, my favorite part of the Amber heard Johnny
Depp trial is listening to him how oh like you
know she threw a bottle at his finger and the
tip cut off, and then he mixed you with blood
and pain and then started like drawing on the walls
penis and then then like I love you. Hey, whatever
right because it doesn't no, But I'm like this sounds

(29:43):
like some Billy Bob Thornton, Angelina Jolie bullshit where they're like,
we're having vials of blood with each other's names on
them and a piece of rice and the necklace and
I threw it in the backyard and now it doesn't
know where it is. And then when you look up
what happened. Billy Bob Thornton and Amber Heard were shooting
a movie together, and that is what calls the drama.
And I'm like, see, I knew it. Billy Bobb is

(30:04):
somehow Billy Bob is the problem. Why isn't he testifying? Yeah, alright, guys,
I think let's take a little quick break before we
bring on our next guests. What do you think? Dmitri agree?
I love that for us, guys, don't commit any crimes.
See in a minute. Hey, hello everyone, and welcome back

(30:35):
to Real Time Crime. I'm your host Lee Lamar, and
I have with me sometimes Dmitri what's up. Wow. Dmitri
is thrilled to be here today. I just want to
get to the next guest. I'm excited. Okay, okay. Our
next guests are Ben Crompton and Alex where So. So.
They're both producers on this new incredible show called ABC's

(30:58):
Who Do You Believe, which comes out May third. That's
when it airs. Okay, So, Who Do You Believe is
a new series that features simultaneous storytelling to take viewers
through compelling true crime cases from dual perspectives, and in
each episode, the audience steps into the shoes of two
contrasting narratives to hear the recounts directly from the victims
and criminals with never before revealed details. Then the viewer

(31:22):
plays armchair detective to deduce and piece together different versions
of the truth. This sounds almost like a comedy, but
it's not. This is real, okay, So, because we all
know that there are always two sides to every story,
and there's no telling how far one would go for
their marriage, child, their way of life. Within this unique

(31:43):
storytelling format, every episode culminates by revealing key details from
the adjudicated cases, leaving you to question, who do you
Believe and it's being produced by Line Pictures and in
association with Walt Disney and and Ben Crompton is one
of the executive producers, and Alex Wereso is the showrunner

(32:05):
and EPs, and we have them both with us here
today and I'm really excited to chat with them. Hello,
how are you, Alex? I'm fantastic And I think Ben, Hello, Ben,
Oh my gosh, nice to meet you. Very nice to
meet that accent. Okay, so, gentlemen, we've already introduced you,

(32:30):
so we're going to go right into it because we're
so excited to hear more about who do you believe
and about your careers in general. And for those who
may not be as familiar with you both, can you
tell us a little bit about how you got excited
about the true crime genre? M M yeah, I mean

(32:50):
it's a good question. I think truth crime is is
a really exciting space and has been for the last
decade right on all platforms. And what I think we
particularly liked it at Lime when we were looking at
the genres as with the development team, was like, we
love stories. When we were really trying to put ourselves

(33:10):
into people's heads, not necessarily in you know, interested in
the the facts or the intricacies of the evidence, but
more like how how these people went through their experiences,
like what was actually going through their head when something
crazy happens or something bad happens, and you know, how
did they rationalize what was happening and then also how

(33:30):
did they experience it versus how the other side experienced it.
So we love true crying, but I think we felt
like we really wanted to get inside people's heads more
than what we're finding on on you know, lots of
shows that were involved in um so that's what kind
of led to the development of this show. That's how
we kind of started the process on it. We wanted
to actually speak to people on both sides of a

(33:51):
crime and find out what what their experiences was in full,
without being influenced by what the verdict was. I think
that's that's brilliant because um, well, everybody wants to play
arms to our quarterback, but it's brilliant to to bring
up both sides. Because we were just talking about the
Johnny Depp and for heard thing and people said, oh,
you know, people have many have said, oh, they're both

(34:12):
at fault, they're both crazy and they're both this, but
what it's what's interesting is to sit there and look
at Okay, well, yes they both did this, but did
this happen first? And then you gotta put yourself in
their shoes. If this was happening to me, how would
I react? Would I then do something crazy? Because you're
just so it's it's interesting to see how things unfold
and look at it that way. So I think that's
a great idea, and that's kind of what our show

(34:33):
is too. But putting those two perspective side by side.
So when Johnny Depp makes an accusation about what happened
that one night, we then play Amber heard right up
against him and she responds exactly, and we do them separately.
All our interviews are done separately. But I don't know
if you've had a chance to to look at the show,
but we had this device where all of our master

(34:54):
wide shots they kind of make up a half of
a room, so symmetrically, when you piece them together, looks
like they're in the same room, which creates this interesting
effect of having them in the same room but they're not.
But you get these outsized reactions, you know, as if
the other person wasn't listening to them, but for the
audience subconsciously, it kind of puts them together. And I
like playing with with that device. Um and I think

(35:17):
that's kind of what's going on in a lot of
these criminal cases. And you know, who do you actually
believe is at the root of what you're thinking? But
we're bringing that in the forefront and kind of simplifying
the format. Two, it's not you know, detectives with cops
and this and that. It's two voices primarily for most
of these episodes, and it's just their opinions, and it's

(35:38):
bringing their sides of the story to life. Um. And
we have dual perspective p o vs in recreation that
we're playing around. Split screen is as well. UM. So
the split screen thing is is imperative to our show
and um kind of takes from that those court trial
things you know. Um yeah, scream scenes very metaverse. But okay,

(36:03):
So has there been anything that has surprised you about
the show, anything that you learned you you thought you
might not, for example, where you actually decided that you
really were citing with the criminal instead of the victim,
or are all these cases very um equally matched in
a sense or does it feel like there are some

(36:23):
that are very lops We tried to make them all
equally matched, and that was one of the criteria for
picking a story. You know, can I actually believe this person?
If somebody's story was so unbelievable or they didn't believe
in their own story, they did not make the cut
for our show. Um, that was very important that you
actually could go along for that ride. You know, in
one act you're believing that Charity is correct, and the

(36:47):
next act you're like, oh, now she's a liar. It's
definitely Marcus who's telling the truth. And I love going
back and forth, right what kind of crimes? It properly
pinballs back and forth, And that's what we willed to
really play with. And it's also not just who you believe,
it's also who do you relate to the most? And
who's who's a response to a certain situation, did you

(37:10):
did you understand the most? I think viewers go on
a real journey in there. It's not just their allegiances
tested as they try to decide who is right and wrong.
You know that it is their allegiance, you know, tested
as to who they like the most. At certain scenarios
and and whose head they can get in the most.
So you know, it's it's been fascinating. It is a
proper journey, and it does feel completely different and unexpected

(37:32):
pre each episode. And what types of primes do you feature?
Lots of different times. I don't want to tell you
all of them, but some of them are more domestic disputes.
I don't want to give away the endings. There are
a good share of murders, but nothing's too like gruesome.
A good share of murders, good share of murders. You know,
we're aiming for like fifty umme party. But it's it's

(37:55):
ABC prime time, you know, so we don't want to
get to too gory to you heavy you know. Um,
I'm not saying that murder is not heavy. It's always
pretty heavy. Um what else can I say? There's a
conservatorship battle in episode to all of the um Britney
Spears case. This one is with Michelle Nichols, who was

(38:18):
the first African American UM actress on Star Trek the
original series with Robert Chattner, Robert Chatner, Richard what's his name,
Willie chat Robber or somebody else. Yeah, Um, so there's
a conservator ship. Um, a couple of murders. I don't
want to give away the first one, I think, I think,

(38:42):
I mean what the reason why we don't want to
give anything away is the kind of whole point of
this show is we want everything to be reset at
the top of the episode and you meet two parties,
and then over the course of that episode, the story
will unfold and your legences will be tested, and you know,
we really do want it to feel unexpected. And you know,

(39:03):
is that it's saying we do explore murder from two sides.
We explore conservative ship, we have some theft in there,
we have some interesting black moil for us. It's a
really interesting way to kind of fit different crime and
crime adjacent stories into this format framework and see how
it pays out. Do you struggle at all putting that together? So,

(39:25):
for instance, like a lawyer would say, I'm a public
defending I'm defending this person, but in their head they
know they're guilty. Do you have trouble putting these together
and maybe thinking I'm gonna make this person look too
good or I don't want them to look as good
because they're clearly the ones obviously you're trying to go
down the middle because you want people to to kind of,
you know, like you said, play armature quarterback and make
their own decisions. But do you struggle with that and

(39:46):
putting it together? A do, And it's something we get
a lot of development on before we got to the
stage of pitching it actually, because you know, there are
many shades are right or wrong. Clearly some people are
right and some people are wrong, but we're not we're
not cast as versions on that. When we're not as
producers pointing out what is right right and what is wrong,
we are allowing them to air their truth, the truth

(40:08):
that they experienced it, how they experienced it, and eventually
the truth, the truth will catch up with them. And
you know, in the later part of the episodes, we
have the verdict and we have the you know, the
results of the adjudication. So you know, we're not really
were What we really want to explore is that people's
own perspectives and logical experiences, they skew their own version

(40:28):
of the truth, but that's their version of the truth.
You know, they fully believe that, and then it's down
to the viewers to deduce whether they believe any part
of that. Really, it's down to them. I have a
million more questions, right, but I mean I want to
ask you more about true crime, obviously, but I just

(40:50):
want to quickly pivot and ask a very selfish question. Um, Alex,
I know that you were an EP and showrunner on
Lea Remini Scientology in the Aftermath Soil series. I'm wondering
where did you guys receive any threats from Scientology? Um?

(41:11):
A lot of letters, Um, a lot of letters telling
us not to But did I I never myself felt
physically threatened. Um. There was a couple occasions where there
may have been somebody outside of my house and going
through my trash and things like that, but UM, you know, nothing,
nothing too intense of what some of those people on

(41:32):
that show have experienced. The amount of fair game that
Scientology has opposed on these people is brutal when ripped
those families apart. So I'm very grateful that none of
that has happened to me and they haven't come after
me full force. But it was the original showrunner on
that show, and yeah, it was a it was a
tough decision. One season was was enough for me. Um.

(41:55):
They didn't, you know, make an attack page attacking me?
Thankfully knock on wood, there's still time. Um. Yeah, I
was kind of putty. Would you be hesitant there? I
was in a bunch of that that first season, and
they were kind of following us around and they would
show up at airports when we were there and they'd
have the p I s waiting for us, and you know,

(42:15):
they would a lot of It's just intimidation, but not
a lot of bite behind the park. Would you be
hesitant to do something like that again? Yeah, I feel
like I've already done that. I have a family now,
and I feel like I escaped unscathed, and I think
that's a good thing. Um, I've done that. I've told
those stories to tell other stories, but my heart is

(42:37):
still with those those victims. Wow. Okay, well we won't
press too much on that and we'll just pivot real fast,
Ben Alex, do you guys have a favorite true crime story?
And I put favorite in air quotes because it's like,
you know, how can you have a favorite story about murder?
But do you have a case that you are super

(42:58):
passionate about or something that really threw you into true
crime in the first place. Mmm, I notice. I mean
the lead remedy thing is what kind of got me
in that space, and it's kind of true crime adjacent.
I had never done true crime before. I did more
kind of British experimental social experiment shows like Undercover Boss
and Wife Swap, more more formatted kind of stuff. Um,

(43:21):
but I always wanted to do more serious stuff. I mean,
I saw that Alex give Me Going Clear thing and
it seemed like a incredible new world to discover. And
that's that's one of my favorite parts about producing, is
just learning about new world and immersing yourself in that.
And true crime offers a lot of that. You know, um,
people from all different kinds of socio economic backgrounds, and

(43:43):
to get to know those people in their circumstances and
tell their stories is an interesting part for me. But
now there's no one that really sticks out. I guess
the Natalie Holloway case. I did a series on Natalie
Holloway when Oxygen first launched into true crime, and I
got to know they've all the way pretty well, spent
a year with him as he searched for his daughter,

(44:04):
so that one kind of emotionally unattached to Ben. Do
you know what I'm I'm less of a true crime
fanatic in the sense that I you know, I don't
track stories. I watch good great docks. You know, I
love the stuff that raw do. I love in The Swindler.
You know, I love going back to the Impostor, which
is like a decade ago. You know, I love a

(44:25):
great version of storytelling. Um, you know, true crime story.
I mean, I'm I'm raptured by all of the stories
that everyone else are talking about. I've been watching a
hell of a lot of Johnny Depp and versus Amber Heard.
I find it just fascinating and kind of you know,
um interesting, how he is enacting himself and court and

(44:47):
how that process is all working out. But you know,
I'm really drawn. I what I really like is that
the way that the production community are telling true crime
stories and the way that they're telling them. So I'm
a big fan more of the format behind a lot
of that. You know. What I find is maddening is
um which is nice that you guys are doing this
with your show and showing different things, but stuff like

(45:08):
the the just laying Maxwell because Ley Maxwell and stuff. No,
there's no cameras, isn't We're just left out here to
speculate what's happening, right, Johnny Depp and never heard we're
getting full on, like all this stuff. It's maddening that
there's stuff that's not not to put one crime over another,
but one of them, in my opinion, is more serious
because it affects a lot of people, that affects children

(45:30):
as underage, and yet we we can't know and I
understand that that's part of that, but we don't know
enough about what's going on, and it just kind of
fades away. But this Johnny Depp, we're getting six weeks
straight up of a bad marriage. Yeah. I'm starting to
think there's a merged store outside the courtroom. Yeah. I
also think, you know, so much of it is about

(45:51):
the process of court. So much of it is just
an answer to, uh, you know, a defense question. It
doesn't I'm not really I'm getting snippets of responsive. I'm
not really able to build a full picture. And you know,
it kind of goes back to what I like about
some great crime docs and what we're trying to do
with our show as well. There's like I want to

(46:11):
hear the full story. I don't want to keep being
interrupted by a lawyer saying, let's hearsay, you know, just
let me just hear it, let me understand it and
get inside their head and what they experienced. Um. And
I also think it's it's more accessible to the Johnny
Depp amber heard stuff even have you know, domestic violence
is and a like subject, But compared to the um

(46:32):
Giselle Maxwell stuff, that stuff gets really dark and really
heavy and that stuff. You know, I don't know how
much time you can emotionally invest in that kind of
stuff day after day, you know. In being producing a
lot of true crime stuff, it wears on you. I
don't know if anybody talks about that, but it's it's
hard to to shake some of these stories when you
come home and you want something a little bit lighter.
So I think most people that I know who actually

(46:53):
make true crime don't like to watch it when they
go home. Um, it's it's it's a lot so that stuff,
like what you too, It's just it's more entertainment, you know.
And I think our show kind of falls in that
line to where, yeah, it's it's still murder and stuff,
but it's not as intense, all encompassing. I can't go

(47:13):
to sleep that night, you know, Yeah, what do you
do when you go home? Like, if you've had a
long day of producing something that's super heavy and and
you feel so you said you'd like to kind of
move away from it. What do you do when you
go home? Do you watch a certain show? Do you
what do you do to kind of get that feel
kiss off of you to spend some of your kiss
my little baby girl. And that's what I do. I

(47:36):
spend time with my family and try not to think
or discuss work and stuff. My wife also works in
the business, because she's always interested about what I'm doing.
But the last thing I want to do sometimes is
is talking about murder again when I've been talking about
it all day long. Um, so funny, I'm the opposite.
But I also don't have a family or anyone who

(47:56):
loves me here, so it doesn't really matter. It's just
me talking to me, So she's just talking about murder,
whether someone's in the room or not. It's basically where
that comes down to. Yeah, and Ben, do you have
a routine for watching selling Sunset? I do have a
lovely family, and I kissed them on the foreheads as well,
and then I watched Selling sunset for maybe an hour.

(48:16):
And that's my that's my general's fisher. We we produce
a lot of reality as well a lot of entertainment format.
So luckily I'm not one buried in the true crime world. Um,
and so I have other events, which is great, and
a family. Yeah, so if you guys could bring up
your families one more time. Yeah, hey you guys, I'm married,

(48:42):
I have four kids, so yeah, alright, alright, guys, I
got it. Okay, But as soon as we're done here,
I'm gonna go kiss my kids and you know, tell
him I love you. So but Leah's going to a visa,
so don't don't make it seem like she doesn't have
anything going on. She's going to Europe for like a month.
Oh I know. Well because they don't have a family,
so yeah, um, you know the trade offs. But okay,

(49:04):
So your show airs on May third on ABC. It's
called Who Do You Believe? And do either of you
have anything you want to share about the show that
we may not have covered, or anything that might surprise
viewers or excite them that we didn't get to talk
about today, or anything anything any final notes about the show.
I think every every episode is different. You know, every

(49:26):
episode there's one special two part of but every every
episode is its own true crime story or dispute um.
You know, it is told from the two central perspectives involved,
and it's fascinating and we can't wait to hear what
people think about it. You know what. I like the
idea that debates will continue after they have watched the episode.
You know, people will still have questions after they've seen

(49:48):
the verdict and after they've heard both sides um. The
other thing I will say is that it's incredibly brave
for both sides to, you know, appear on something like this.
We found from responses from the been involved that it's
also a really cathartic experience for them. Is they're able
to fully air their perspective and get a right to
apply to some of those opposing, contrasting perspectives that they

(50:10):
didn't get a chance to do before. So I think
I'll be interested to hear what they think. That's one
of the most challenging parts of actually getting people to
participate in the show. We're up front that the other
side is going to have their equal airing, and oftentimes
this is their mortal enemy in life and knowing that
they're going to have the rights to reply scares a
lot of people away and they don't want the other

(50:31):
side to have their opinion aired. So that's been a
challenge with the people, to de Ben's point who have
agreed to do it, have been been brave and I
feel like we're we're giving them each a fair shakes
as much as we can. Yeah, I can see that,
and I can see that. Do you have problems with
lawyers wanting stuff out? No? No, yeah, um, but so

(50:54):
but you what you're saying about in the courtroom, you
were saying that, you know, you're always being interrupted and
there is here say that. But that's they've got to
feel good about that, because that's gotta be frustrating for
them as well when they understand, oh I didn't say correctly,
oh this person so they can just sit down and
tell their side of the story. So I can see
how there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind
the scenes to corroborate, you know, the things that they're saying,

(51:16):
and in legal documents and in other ways. Um, but yeah,
there are certainly as any true crunch, there's lots of
legal landlines to navigate through. Yeah, but you're right though,
it's that and it's not just went that what went
down in court, it's also you know, how the case
was reported, and you know what their family or their
community that the kind of the nuggets of the case

(51:38):
that they've held onto that they want to finally have
a chance to kind of rebuff or they want to
have a chance to respond to something that's kind of
been a shadow over them for a long time. So
it is it isn't you know, fascinating to see how
their story has evolved and how good they feel after
they've been able to fully air in. Can I just
say Legal land Mines is the best name for show

(52:00):
for lawyers who've had difficult cases, Alex, I mean, I'd
love to come on as a creative story producer. Just
let me know I'm available for hire, And I will say, also, Ben,
you know, I noticed that you were one of the
EPs on Ease Dating No Filter. If you haven't noticed,

(52:22):
I don't have a family, I'm very lonely and I
have no filter. So if there's a season to just
let me know. We cast like it was really fun,
you know, having a comedic commentary on top of dates
dates always funny, you know. So yeah, it's a very
different show to this, but they're funny when you're married
and have a family. That's all I'll say. Dating is

(52:44):
no longer fun. I'm not having fun. No one's having fun.
Are you think? I love how I've convinced three men
that I'm not? Okay? All right, Um, gentlemen, this has
been such an honor, unemploy sure having you here today.
I guess I just want to give you both the
floor for any final thoughts that you may have or

(53:05):
anything you want to share with the audience or where
we can find you on the internet. Yeah, Internet that
We want as many true crime fans to watch it
as possible. ABC have been just wonderful partners of this,
you know, really are benchmark raising and you know exciting
home for True Crime on on Hulu as well. So um, yeah,

(53:27):
we're excited to see how it how it pans out
and let us know what you're thinking. Thank you, thank
you for the time. I appreciate it, Thank you. I'm
so excited to watch the show. This is a really
novel idea and both of you have worked on such
a wide gamut of genres and all the shows you
worked on have been super successful, so I don't doubt
that this will be just another hit for both of you.

(53:50):
Very excited to watch it. So that's May third on ABC.
Who do you Believe? And you know we're gonna be
talking about it, so make sure you watch it. Yeah, brilliant.
We look forward to that. Yeah, thanks guys, having thank you,
And then there were two there. It is. That's the
tough thing about guests is when they leave, then there's
that that's silence in the house. Yeah. See when guests

(54:14):
usually leave my house, I'm like, thank god, now I
can fart. You're not doing that now though, right M.
I like those guys. I loved every guest we had today.
Every guest we had today was x Yeah. I felt
bad when um when Ben said that he had a family,

(54:35):
because I know it's a little twinkle in your eye.
When he first came on, You're like, oh, I'd like
to welcome your accent and your handsome face. Hello. Yes,
Alex is here too, Hello, Ben, tell me about yourself.
I don't know what made you think that I would
like to go adithan Acentum. That was Australian by the way. Okay,
you guys please DM me at Leo lamar l e

(54:56):
A H l A m A r R. You already
know this. Let me know if you think Amber Heard
will win the trial or Johnny Depp. Also, we're going
to post a clip, so just post on the clip,
post on the reel. I want to know who you
think is going to win this trial. And as always,
call in live baby, leave us a voice smail if
you've got a hot tip for us, or if there's

(55:18):
a case you think that we should be looking into,
or a bit of information that we didn't know, let
us know. It is an open forum calling it eight
that's eight six six twenty one crimes. Normally there's someone
eight six six two two seven four six three. Al Right,

(55:41):
social sleuths, I love you very much. I'll see you
from across the world next week, and stay safe, don't
commit any crimes as usual. Love you very much. Bye bye.
It's real time gra real time gro I mean, is
it actually real time crime when I'm solving anything or

(56:02):
is that just the thing we say, it's a thing
we say, got it? Okay, see you next week for
more real time crime only on I Heart Radio.