Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you need wisdom and advice. Seek out a guru
when you need wisdom and advice about remodeling and design.
Lock on and listen right now to Nick the Construction Guru.
Here is award winning remodeling expert Nick Kerzner.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
News Talk eleven thirty to wis End. Good morning, Wisconsin,
Nick the construction Guru on the heels of the Actually,
we just finished The Realtors Show Man. It was a
I always refer to that as a baton death March.
It's a great show, but it goes for so long.
You know, it's so many days, and you know, a
lot of the questions that were coming out of the
people I was talking to were about design and how
(00:44):
different companies operate. So today we're going to do a
two part series. This week and next week I'm going
to have our designer Chris Agner here from Chris Agner Design.
We're going to talk about the importance of design. So
grab a cup of coffee and sit down because there's
going to be some really good information today. Chris, thanks
for coming in on the show. I really appreciate you
taking some time. One of the things, let's define, defind, design, build.
(01:06):
What is a design build company, how do they differ
from from other things?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Sure well, the design build concept versus the typical contractor
who is getting a design from somewhere else, whether it
be an architect or just a homeowner's idea, without any
true design and building that project. In the design build world,
one single company is handling the design of the project
(01:33):
all the way through construction. Some real key advantages to
that number one contractor getting a set of plans from
let's say an architect who might have worked with a
homeowner for a couple of months developing a plan or
a design. The contractor has had no contact directly with
that homeowner through that whole design process, so really his
(01:56):
only understanding of the project is his interpretation of the
arche text plans. In the design build world, the company,
the person, the people that are going to actually build
the project, be in your home doing the work, have
been with you from day one through the design, so
they understand you know, you like this, this is important
(02:18):
to you. This is why we did this, this is
why we chose to do this. That's really important. I've
seen too many times where you know, in the other scenario,
a homeowner all of a sudden comes home from work
and see something that was done that day and says,
what is this exactly? And all of a sudden, it's like, well,
(02:40):
we didn't know or we didn't understand that's what it was.
So that's kind of the overall design build concept. The
other advantage with that is that company that you're working
with from day one, if they're involved from the start
on the design side of thing, they're also involved from
(03:00):
the start on your budget.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Side of things. Boom.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I can't tell you how many times I have been
handed a set of plans that an architect did for
somebody for thirty thousand dollars, yes, thirty thousand dollars or
more for the plan that a was it what they
were looking for or for some reason couldn't be built
because of existing conditions or what have you. And at
(03:24):
that here's standing up on the back of my neck
right now, because I've experience. Please, I'm not knocking architects.
They're brilliant, but again they are only working with the
information they have, maybe directly with the homeowner, not with
the person who's going to end up building it, who
might say that, you know, we can't do it this
way because of XYZ or for whatever reason. But it's
(03:46):
just that disconnect from the people working with you on
a design to the guy swinging the hammer. That disconnect
can be a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, and the disconnect many times, my experience has taught
me through working on mediation and arbitration with other companies
that a lot Let's face it, the architect is getting
paid a lot of money to wow you with the
beautiful design, and I've seen some beautiful designs come through.
You talk about can't be built. One of the things that,
(04:17):
especially with structural things, a lot of times architects will
be taking walls out and things like that, not thinking
about what do we have to put in to support it.
I mean, granted they have the calks and all of that,
but I remember one we couldn't get the micromam in
the house because it was too long and we would
have had to take the side of the neighbor's house out.
So there is a major disconnect with that. And also
the big one, and you hit the nail on the head,
(04:40):
is the budget. You know, they designed a thirty thousand
dollars plan till it's going to cost one hundred thousand
dollars due do you hand it to a general contractor
and it's two hundred and fifty or sixty thousand, what
do you do now? I think one of the things
that you and I work on, well, every single job,
we're always we know the budget up FRONTEP so you're
going to maybe you're going to not show something that
(05:00):
are going to throw it out of the budget. Or
we show the things and we say, hey, here's the
mac Daddy. This is the loaded car with the sunroof
and the leather and all of that. However, it's over
your budget and you may not want the sunroof, but
you might want the leather, right.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So you'll say, I'll add to that. The other side
of it is, you know, an architect is being paid
for his profession, his knowledge and all those things, and
well deserving, but that is what his role is and
his motivation is in the design build world that contractor,
(05:33):
Yes he is charging for design if he's doing this right,
because it does take time and there's but his goal
is not to sell you a set of plans. His
goal is to build your projects. So it is very important,
you know, and this budget thing. That doesn't mean that
that you sit down day one and your contractor, your
design build contractor tells you it's going to cost about
(05:57):
this much, and when it's all done, it's not more.
I mean, you know, as plans develop, we call it
scope creep. We'll get into that later, but in today's world,
I'm sorry, I've been doing this for over thirty years
and I can't tell you next week what stuff is
going to cost the way things fluctuate in prices right now.
But at least we know this is the general area
(06:18):
we want to be. So this would be a cool idea,
but it really isn't going to fit in this budget. However,
mister and missus homeowner, would you like to look at this?
Would you like to explore this? Maybe you do want
to make that investment. By doing a proper design, we
can explore things in the computer world much less costly
(06:39):
than the soil world, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, Chris, you know, one of the questions that I
was getting is basically, what's separate? I'm going to I'm
going to paraphrase it, what are the elements of a
good design? In other words, when you're looking at a design,
what should be in it? And where what fluff can
can we get rid of? You know, kind of directing
the homeowner into what you're talking about, like a situation. Hey,
(07:02):
we're going to show you the sunroof. If you like it, great,
but understand it's going to be more money. I think
a lot of designers look at a budget and they
don't even show certain products. And that's not fair either,
because if I'm sitting on a ninety degree day and
a Toyota pulls up, same as mind it's got a sunroof,
I'm gonna go, why didn't the salesman talk to me
about a sign? If I would have loved that? Right?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yep, yeah, exactly. And I think so you know that
what is a good design? I mean you could you know,
you could debate that for forever. You know there and
we do some right exactly. And you know, good design
can be esthetics, it can be function, it should be both,
and there's all kinds of other things that go into it,
you know, in the in the in the remodeling world,
(07:40):
you know, we're we're not only looking at designing this project,
but you know, this project, whether it's kitchen, bathroom, edition, whatever,
is fitting into an existing house or we're onto it now.
You know that and that that there are some real
challenges there. You know, Number one, we wanted to blend,
we wanted to look, but where do you stop? In
(08:02):
other words, you know we're going to do this addition
and I like this new look of black windows or
what have you, or I like this new trim molding.
Well does that mean we're replacing all the doors in
the casings, on the windows and the rest of the house.
You know, it's there are all kinds of things that
come into that. But again, you know, knowing as the
(08:23):
contractor who's going to build it and having that experience
of what things do cost, you can guide you know,
your job is there to help that homeowner. We're not
here to sell you something. We're helped to guide you
and our expectese is going to say, you know you
want to do this, what about this, We've done this before,
We've seen this before, this really works well in this situation?
(08:47):
Or what if we did this to be able to
at least see it, explore it and know what that
might cost. Is it going to add to the project
and then be able to make a decision based on
real information as maybe that's a value to me, But
if I don't know as a homeowner that that was
even possible, and my project's all done, and then I
(09:07):
go to my friend's house and they have one of
these and go, why why didn't you tell Why didn't
you tell me about that?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
You know, I think you were touching on it, and
kind of a roundabout way, one of the things that
I think differentiates you and myself and Kurzoner remodeling and
construction is that the designers were actually craftsmen before they
were designers. So you were building, wearing a tool belt,
had hammers, all of that, as was I. So that
(09:33):
gives you kind of an in depth vision of what
can be done. And you know, I don't think a
lot of times with designers more than architects, but designers
they don't realize how long it's going to take to
create what they're doing. And that's where the labor disparagement
comes in. People look at it and they go, well,
they told me it was going to be this much,
(09:53):
and you're telling me it's going to be guess what
we got to build it? Yep. Okay, So whenever you
put curves in drywall, or if you're going to have
niches and showers, that takes time. And to do it right.
And that's what we bring to the table when we
talk about this. So I think, you know, when you
look at the design build world, you really want to
deal with people who are in design that have actually
(10:14):
done the work.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Right, which is hard to find, right, hard to find.
And you know, and that's the word designer. You know,
what is that really mean?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Right? Right?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
So you know, I've heard that that term has kind
of become now the catch all for salesperson. You know,
in other words, this X y Z company doesn't have
salespeople anymore. We're going to send a designer to your house.
Well that's great. Are they a designer or are they
really the salesperson?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well, and you know, Chris, just because you have some
piece of paper from some online university in Guam, okay
that says you're a designer. Here's the bottom line. And
I've been saying this down at the show, and this
is going to be a little bit arrogant, but it's
just the truth. You know, they walk by our booth
and there's a twenty footshelf. I know it's twenty feet
because the booth is twenty feet and there's pieces of
(11:06):
glass seventy five eighty pieces of glass sitting on their
awards of work that we've done that have been judged
by industry peers in the same business and probably many
of them who have projects in the same competitions. So
you look at that and now, does that mean it's
a good designer? I would say yeah, does because you
know you've got industry professionals looking at it, so you
(11:27):
know there is a little bit of arrogance that comes
along with that. And I think that that's what I
think as a homeowner. If I'm going to have my
motorcycle Paine, and I want to go to the guy
who's winning the awards, right, Okay, if you're going to
have your house done, you want to go to the person.
And I said, guy, I shouldn't say that. It just
we're all guys, right, But that's where we're at. Chris,
(11:49):
We're going to take a short break. When we come back.
I want to talk to you about because because you
and I have had some of this as well, risks
of poor design. What are the risks if you don't
have somebody that it is a true design build designer.
And you know you and I have lived through many
of this, both through our roles at NARY and in
our personal business life. So I want to talk about
(12:10):
that because I think it's important. All Right, News Talk
eleven thirty w ISN. We will return after these messages.
News Talk eleven thirty WSN returning from break Nick the
Construction Group. Listen if you're thinking about a project, I
say on every single show, as a matter of fact,
I have people coming up to me at the show, Chris,
(12:32):
and they're going you always say, get three estimates, So
I know they're listening. It's so cool, and I do
because you know it's a relationship business and clearly I'm
not the flavor for everybody, and you want to kind
of talk to the people that are going to be
involved in your house. Keep in mind that your contractor
is going to have access to your home, your pat
your kids, even your wife's longer rage rawers. So it's
(12:52):
a relationship. You have to know who you're dealing with,
and you have to look at a track record. So
Kurzner is the only company in Wisconsin, the only company
in Wisconsin in our industry to win the Better Business
Beer Torch Award for Ethics and Integrity three times. Give
us a call two six two, five six seven are
on the world wide Web at Kurznerinc. Dot com. That's
(13:14):
k E r Z N E r I n C
dot com. If you're just tuning in, we are on.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
It just came off the heels of the Home and
Garden Show, which is a great show. By the way,
They do a great job down there. Loved it was.
It was crowded, it was well done, So kudos to
Amanda and your and your whole team down there. If
you were at the Home and Garden Show, I thought
it was laid out really well, but a lot of
questions were coming up, and you know, as we go on, Chris,
(13:46):
a lot of the people are starting to ask the
right questions. So the the information is getting out there,
especially about remodeling. Where it all starts is with a
good plan. And we've been talking about design, why it's important,
and now I want to kind of dovetail into this.
We talked about why good design is important, why using
(14:07):
industry experts, What is a designer, what are the qualifications?
I said in the last segment, it's always better to
use somebody who's worn the tool belt and kind of
developed their design. As time goes on. One of the
things I noticed, Chris, because I was doing all the
design for our company before you and I started working
(14:28):
in concert together is it's kind of like Forsache. It's
kind of like Louis Vuitton. Everything starts to look like
it has a flavor to it when you're a designer. Okay,
So I think one of the reasons why I decided
to call on your expertise and work in collaboration with
you is because we needed to put some sprinkles on
(14:50):
the ice cream. We needed to change it a little bit,
because designers tend to have similar subjective ideas. I know,
blue gray is big right now. I've always been an
earth tone guy, so the lion's share of my projects
are done that way. You are able to change some
of that. So when we talk about poor design, because
(15:13):
obviously there's good design and there's bad design, what are
the risks of poor design? What would you say are
some of the risks of that?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Well, that's a broad you know, there's a lot of
things that could be poor design. Poor design could be
something that, you know, as we talked about earlier, that
just simply doesn't work from a construction standpoint, or isn't
the best way to handle something, whether it's structural, whether
it you know, it may be a water issue. In
(15:42):
other words, this design, yeah, we like it, this is great, whatever,
But that roofline of that addition tying into your house
is a real potential there for a leak or a
nice dam or something, especially here in Wisconsin, you know,
and you spoke to this. You know, designers know what
is their background? Have they Do they understand that or
(16:05):
is it just this looks really nice and yes, the
homeowner looks it and goes, yeah, that looks great. Well,
the homeowner it's not their job to know that might
be a potential problem. But in my mind, it is
that designer and that design build firms or whoever's going
to build it.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, you know, I'm laughing. I always like to
I always like to use analogies. As you know. I'm
thinking about like when you're watching the Grammys or the
Oscars and you see some of these dresses that the
women wear and you're looking at it, You're going, it's
a really pretty dress. But if she walks, if she
if she extends her step another two inches, her breast
is going to fall out of the dress, right, and
(16:40):
and and so functionality great point. You know, designers looking
to go we want it to be beautiful, we want
you to go wow, But how is it going to
work in its in its environment? And are you going
to be able to walk down the aisle without the
roof leaking? Right? So it's it's like, I think that's
a great point. I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh no, that's why I was laughing at Yeah, you know,
but you know, so that's one aspect and that you know,
and that that really there's nothing but experience that's going
to get you to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
The other thing you touched on there is you know,
designers might have a style and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I mean people, you know, people.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Go to that dress designer or that whatever because that
is their style and they like it. I've been doing
this a very long time. One of the things I like,
and I think is unique to me, is I like variety.
In other words, I just got done doing a sixty
five hundred square foot super modern custom home. Love it,
(17:39):
but I also love doing you know, the addition to
this eighteen hundred's farmhouse type of thing and everything in between.
So that that really and that's that's a personal thing.
And that's kind of back to your you know, either
get three estimates or talk to three people, because again,
this relationship, we need to find the right person, you know.
And and there may be does that's just awesome at
(18:01):
you know, doing condos downtown, But do I need them
doing my lake house? Maybe not. Maybe that's just not
their niche. And those are things that you'll just find
out early on, so that you know, that's maybe not
bad design, it's just a bad fit.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Then in bad design, you know, again, functional is the
kitchen laid out properly?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Is it going to be easy to work in? Or
is it just pretty?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And some designers have a real problem with with balance,
with balancing you know, traffic patterns and functionality with drama.
I've always been a drama guy, always with when I'm designing,
I want people to walk in and.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Go wow, yep, But why can't we have both exactly right?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But that's what comes with clients, right, That's what comes
with sign and learning.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And that's you know, the it's very easy to make
really pretty pictures in the computer and go wow, that's
that's so cool. I love it. Then to get halfway
into the project and have your contractor come to you
and go, I don't know what they were thinking here,
but this doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you know, and it's.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Going to cost you fifty thousand dollars more to make
it right though, those are the headaches we avoid in
the design build world through experience.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, and you know what in the earlier segment, we
were talking about the disconnect between say, an outside firm
doing the design and another general contractor doing it. You know,
I think that a lot of times people look at
you know, I want to go to this person to
build it, but there's a there's such a huge disconnect
between the people that have to build it then and
(19:32):
the budget. And we talked, we talked a lot about
that when you're dealing with the other thing where I
was going with this is there's also a liability issue.
You know, when that bad roof line starts to leak,
is it the fault of the designer or is it
the fault of the contractor? And I'm not sure, but
I know it's going to take a Philadelphia lawyer to
figure it out. When you're dealing with the design build
(19:53):
firm and you know, cursioners on the blueprints, cursioners on
the contract. The truth is there's only one set of
shoulders to put the liability exactly. And so knowing that
we're not going to do something that you may may
want desperately, but we know isn't going to work. And
we've been in those I've had people, I want a
spiral staircase. Another guy wanted to pull that he could
(20:15):
slide down, and I'm like, this is not We don't
do this kind of stuff. It just doesn't make sense
to us. And I'm sure there's somebody out there that
will yep. But down the line, if something happens, that's it.
We touched on it a couple of minutes ago. So
there's there's two schools of thought with design build. You know,
people come to my booth and they tell me and again,
because we just we just finished up at the Home
(20:37):
and Garden show, I'm trying to keep this stuff fresh
that that people are asking. They'll say, well, why should
I pay for design one? The other guy's going to
do it for free. Let's talk about that. Okay, don't
you love it? I gotta get back up off the Florida. Yeah, yeah, well,
So one of the things that I tell them is
I look at. I say, look at, there's no such
thing as free design, because somebody's getting paid, somebody getting
(21:00):
on salary, somebody's getting paid per design. Somebody has to
be paid for that, and that goes into the company's overhead.
So when you deal with the company that says they're
doing quotation marks free design, that's going into their overhead,
which means that not only are you paying for your
design when you do business with that company, but you're
paying for everybody's design who didn't do it because it's
(21:22):
in their overhead exactly. And the other thing, and I'm
gonna let you talk in just a minute, but this
is the other thing I love because I say, you
know what, if somebody says they're doing something free for you,
Like if you come over and say, hey, Nick, I'm
gonna cut your grass for you today for free, and
I look out there and there's lines in the grass
and you didn't trim it, right, It's hard for me
to really come and bitch at you about it because
you did it for free when you're paying for design.
And I've had people, the funniest one I've ever had is.
(21:45):
I showed them my design for the kitchen. They looked
at it and a waitf looked at me. She said,
this sucks, and you know what, good for you? Thanks
for telling me, right, because it's subjective, right, Oh? Absolutely,
If I was doing it for free, she's not going
to be able to hold me accountable. So what are
your thoughts on free?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we might need three shows for this.
But as you said, first of all, nothing is free.
But at the same time, you know, what are you
getting with that free design. I've been doing this a
long time. I know what it takes to do design
(22:25):
to the level we do.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
What Okay, let me ask you this. Sorry to interrupt again,
but it's so important. How many hours on the average
kitchen yep? I know averages are scary. I always say
if you if you put two buckets of water on
the floor, one with ice water, one with boiling water,
take your shoes and socks, put your feet in one
of each bucket. On the average you should be comfortable.
It illustrates extreme.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, but.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, a good a good kitchen design could be you know,
probably as little as twenty five hours and as much
as seventy five hours to do that, right, Yes, and
that's that's where I was going. You're right on. It's
you know, free design. Was that Oh my god, I
have a meeting with X y Z client tomorrow. I
(23:11):
better start knocking something out tonight so I can show
them something. Is that the free design? And believe me,
I see stuff. I mean I have homeowners come to
me with we met with so and so, and this
is the design they gave them, and they hand me this,
you know, eight and a half by eleven three page
thing and it's like, what is this? You know? And
(23:32):
then the program the software that we use, that program
that we use to design, you know, that's a five
thousand dollars program. Well you could go to Office People.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
By subscription every year to keep Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At Office People, I can get a thirty five dollars
program that I can make something look like a design,
you know, so that that you know, you get what
you pay for.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Well, I always say you don't always get what you
pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for,
you know. So it's like I will and I hate
to say this because I know there's a lot of
companies doing this, but I always look at free design
as a shield for the next step in the sales program.
So we're going to hand you something to keep you involved. Okay,
I'm way past the time in my career where I
need to hand you something to stay involved. We're way
(24:20):
busier than we have to worry about trying to get
the people and and and creating this unrealistic thing. Chris,
we got about two minutes left. Let's hit on the
three most important things about design, and again we're going
to do this again next week because we're going to
talk about design some more. So what people are looking
for design? Three? What do you think the three biggest Well.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think the first thing is information? You know what
what is this project? Is it to solve a problem?
Is it to enhance a lifestyle? Is it a statics?
Is it all of those things? So knowledge, you know,
knowing exactly what what are we trying to solve, What
are we trying to accomplish? Then you know what what
(24:59):
we're doing, and how is it blend with the existing home?
Is it going to match? Is it going is it
not supposed to match? Is it something that down the
road they're going to be changing siding? So this should
be that what's what's going on there? So all those
things play into good design. But ultimately, at the end
of the day, what is the homeowner after? What are
they trying to accomplish? Is this going to do it?
(25:22):
Is it going to do it for the best value?
Is it going to add value to the home from
a whether it's resale or equity standpoint, All of those
things are part of good design. Did I do something
that is so unique that I better live here untill
they carry me out in a pine box because nobody's
buying this. And if that's your idea, good for you,
(25:46):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No problem.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I've done all kinds of crazy stuff that nobody else
would buy, but that's what they wanted. But knowing that
and designing towards that end, I think it's just a
matter of, you know, getting as much information and from
the homeowner as to what they're really trying to do,
and then letting our expertise and knowledge and experience guide them.
(26:08):
And that's what we're here for. We're not here to sell.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
You what we like.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We're here to guide you to get the most for
your money, the most value, the most aesthetics, the most function,
And that's what we're here. We want to be sitting
side by side with you at the table, not across
the table from you, trying to sell yourself great points.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Listen, we're going to do this again next week. Thanks
for coming in on a Sunday. We're out of time,
so tune in next week. We're going to continue this
all about design on Newstalk eleven thirty To be isn
When you need wisdom and advice. Seek out a guru
when you need wisdom and advice about remodeling and design.
Lock on and listen right now to Nick the Construction Guru.
Here is award winning remodeling expert Nick Kerzner.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
News Talk eleven thirty to wis End. Good morning, Wisconsin,
Nick the construction Guru on the heels of the Actually,
we just finished The Realtors Show Man. It was a
I always refer to that as a baton death March.
It's a great show, but it goes for so long.
You know, it's so many days, and you know, a
lot of the questions that were coming out of the
people I was talking to were about design and how
(00:44):
different companies operate. So today we're going to do a
two part series. This week and next week I'm going
to have our designer Chris Agner here from Chris Agner Design.
We're going to talk about the importance of design. So
grab a cup of coffee and sit down because there's
going to be some really good information today. Chris, thanks
for coming in on the show. I really appreciate you
taking some time. One of the things, let's define, defind, design, build.
(01:06):
What is a design build company, how do they differ
from from other things?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Sure well, the design build concept versus the typical contractor
who is getting a design from somewhere else, whether it
be an architect or just a homeowner's idea, without any
true design and building that project. In the design build world,
one single company is handling the design of the project
(01:33):
all the way through construction. Some real key advantages to
that number one contractor getting a set of plans from
let's say an architect who might have worked with a
homeowner for a couple of months developing a plan or
a design. The contractor has had no contact directly with
that homeowner through that whole design process, so really his
(01:56):
only understanding of the project is his interpretation of the
arche text plans. In the design build world, the company,
the person, the people that are going to actually build
the project, be in your home doing the work, have
been with you from day one through the design, so
they understand you know, you like this, this is important
(02:18):
to you. This is why we did this, this is
why we chose to do this. That's really important. I've
seen too many times where you know, in the other scenario,
a homeowner all of a sudden comes home from work
and see something that was done that day and says,
what is this exactly? And all of a sudden, it's like, well,
(02:40):
we didn't know or we didn't understand that's what it was.
So that's kind of the overall design build concept. The
other advantage with that is that company that you're working
with from day one, if they're involved from the start
on the design side of thing, they're also involved from
(03:00):
the start on your budget.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Side of things. Boom.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I can't tell you how many times I have been
handed a set of plans that an architect did for
somebody for thirty thousand dollars, yes, thirty thousand dollars or
more for the plan that a was it what they
were looking for or for some reason couldn't be built
because of existing conditions or what have you. And at
(03:24):
that here's standing up on the back of my neck
right now, because I've experience. Please, I'm not knocking architects.
They're brilliant, but again they are only working with the
information they have, maybe directly with the homeowner, not with
the person who's going to end up building it, who
might say that, you know, we can't do it this
way because of XYZ or for whatever reason. But it's
(03:46):
just that disconnect from the people working with you on
a design to the guy swinging the hammer. That disconnect
can be a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, and the disconnect many times, my experience has taught
me through working on mediation and arbitration with other companies
that a lot Let's face it, the architect is getting
paid a lot of money to wow you with the
beautiful design, and I've seen some beautiful designs come through.
You talk about can't be built. One of the things that,
(04:17):
especially with structural things, a lot of times architects will
be taking walls out and things like that, not thinking
about what do we have to put in to support it.
I mean, granted they have the calks and all of that,
but I remember one we couldn't get the micromam in
the house because it was too long and we would
have had to take the side of the neighbor's house out.
So there is a major disconnect with that. And also
the big one, and you hit the nail on the head,
(04:40):
is the budget. You know, they designed a thirty thousand
dollars plan till it's going to cost one hundred thousand
dollars due do you hand it to a general contractor
and it's two hundred and fifty or sixty thousand, what
do you do now? I think one of the things
that you and I work on, well, every single job,
we're always we know the budget up FRONTEP so you're
going to maybe you're going to not show something that
(05:00):
are going to throw it out of the budget. Or
we show the things and we say, hey, here's the
mac Daddy. This is the loaded car with the sunroof
and the leather and all of that. However, it's over
your budget and you may not want the sunroof, but
you might want the leather, right.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So you'll say, I'll add to that. The other side
of it is, you know, an architect is being paid
for his profession, his knowledge and all those things, and
well deserving, but that is what his role is and
his motivation is in the design build world that contractor,
(05:33):
Yes he is charging for design if he's doing this right,
because it does take time and there's but his goal
is not to sell you a set of plans. His
goal is to build your projects. So it is very important,
you know, and this budget thing. That doesn't mean that
that you sit down day one and your contractor, your
design build contractor tells you it's going to cost about
(05:57):
this much, and when it's all done, it's not more.
I mean, you know, as plans develop, we call it
scope creep. We'll get into that later, but in today's world,
I'm sorry, I've been doing this for over thirty years
and I can't tell you next week what stuff is
going to cost the way things fluctuate in prices right now.
But at least we know this is the general area
(06:18):
we want to be. So this would be a cool idea,
but it really isn't going to fit in this budget. However,
mister and missus homeowner, would you like to look at this?
Would you like to explore this? Maybe you do want
to make that investment. By doing a proper design, we
can explore things in the computer world much less costly
(06:39):
than the soil world, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So, Chris, you know, one of the questions that I
was getting is basically, what's separate? I'm going to I'm
going to paraphrase it, what are the elements of a
good design? In other words, when you're looking at a design,
what should be in it? And where what fluff can
can we get rid of? You know, kind of directing
the homeowner into what you're talking about, like a situation. Hey,
(07:02):
we're going to show you the sunroof. If you like it, great,
but understand it's going to be more money. I think
a lot of designers look at a budget and they
don't even show certain products. And that's not fair either,
because if I'm sitting on a ninety degree day and
a Toyota pulls up, same as mind it's got a sunroof,
I'm gonna go, why didn't the salesman talk to me
about a sign? If I would have loved that? Right?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yep, yeah, exactly. And I think so you know that
what is a good design? I mean you could you know,
you could debate that for forever. You know there and
we do some right exactly. And you know, good design
can be esthetics, it can be function, it should be both,
and there's all kinds of other things that go into it,
you know, in the in the in the remodeling world,
(07:40):
you know, we're we're not only looking at designing this project,
but you know, this project, whether it's kitchen, bathroom, edition, whatever,
is fitting into an existing house or we're onto it now.
You know that and that that there are some real
challenges there. You know, Number one, we wanted to blend,
we wanted to look, but where do you stop? In
(08:02):
other words, you know we're going to do this addition
and I like this new look of black windows or
what have you, or I like this new trim molding.
Well does that mean we're replacing all the doors in
the casings, on the windows and the rest of the house.
You know, it's there are all kinds of things that
come into that. But again, you know, knowing as the
(08:23):
contractor who's going to build it and having that experience
of what things do cost, you can guide you know,
your job is there to help that homeowner. We're not
here to sell you something. We're helped to guide you
and our expectese is going to say, you know you
want to do this, what about this, We've done this before,
We've seen this before, this really works well in this situation?
(08:47):
Or what if we did this to be able to
at least see it, explore it and know what that
might cost. Is it going to add to the project
and then be able to make a decision based on
real information as maybe that's a value to me, But
if I don't know as a homeowner that that was
even possible, and my project's all done, and then I
(09:07):
go to my friend's house and they have one of
these and go, why why didn't you tell Why didn't
you tell me about that?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
You know, I think you were touching on it, and
kind of a roundabout way, one of the things that
I think differentiates you and myself and Kurzoner remodeling and
construction is that the designers were actually craftsmen before they
were designers. So you were building, wearing a tool belt,
had hammers, all of that, as was I. So that
(09:33):
gives you kind of an in depth vision of what
can be done. And you know, I don't think a
lot of times with designers more than architects, but designers
they don't realize how long it's going to take to
create what they're doing. And that's where the labor disparagement
comes in. People look at it and they go, well,
they told me it was going to be this much,
(09:53):
and you're telling me it's going to be guess what
we got to build it? Yep. Okay, So whenever you
put curves in drywall, or if you're going to have
niches and showers, that takes time. And to do it right.
And that's what we bring to the table when we
talk about this. So I think, you know, when you
look at the design build world, you really want to
deal with people who are in design that have actually
(10:14):
done the work.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Right, which is hard to find, right, hard to find.
And you know, and that's the word designer. You know,
what is that really mean?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Right? Right?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
So you know, I've heard that that term has kind
of become now the catch all for salesperson. You know,
in other words, this X y Z company doesn't have
salespeople anymore. We're going to send a designer to your house.
Well that's great. Are they a designer or are they
really the salesperson?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well, and you know, Chris, just because you have some
piece of paper from some online university in Guam, okay
that says you're a designer. Here's the bottom line. And
I've been saying this down at the show, and this
is going to be a little bit arrogant, but it's
just the truth. You know, they walk by our booth
and there's a twenty footshelf. I know it's twenty feet
because the booth is twenty feet and there's pieces of
(11:06):
glass seventy five eighty pieces of glass sitting on their
awards of work that we've done that have been judged
by industry peers in the same business and probably many
of them who have projects in the same competitions. So
you look at that and now, does that mean it's
a good designer? I would say yeah, does because you
know you've got industry professionals looking at it, so you
(11:27):
know there is a little bit of arrogance that comes
along with that. And I think that that's what I
think as a homeowner. If I'm going to have my
motorcycle Paine, and I want to go to the guy
who's winning the awards, right, Okay, if you're going to
have your house done, you want to go to the person.
And I said, guy, I shouldn't say that. It just
we're all guys, right, But that's where we're at. Chris,
(11:49):
We're going to take a short break. When we come back.
I want to talk to you about because because you
and I have had some of this as well, risks
of poor design. What are the risks if you don't
have somebody that it is a true design build designer.
And you know you and I have lived through many
of this, both through our roles at NARY and in
our personal business life. So I want to talk about
(12:10):
that because I think it's important. All Right, News Talk
eleven thirty w ISN. We will return after these messages.
News Talk eleven thirty WSN returning from break Nick the
Construction Group. Listen if you're thinking about a project, I
say on every single show, as a matter of fact,
I have people coming up to me at the show, Chris,
(12:32):
and they're going you always say, get three estimates, So
I know they're listening. It's so cool, and I do
because you know it's a relationship business and clearly I'm
not the flavor for everybody, and you want to kind
of talk to the people that are going to be
involved in your house. Keep in mind that your contractor
is going to have access to your home, your pat
your kids, even your wife's longer rage rawers. So it's
(12:52):
a relationship. You have to know who you're dealing with,
and you have to look at a track record. So
Kurzner is the only company in Wisconsin, the only company
in Wisconsin in our industry to win the Better Business
Beer Torch Award for Ethics and Integrity three times. Give
us a call two six two, five six seven are
on the world wide Web at Kurznerinc. Dot com. That's
(13:14):
k E r Z N E r I n C
dot com. If you're just tuning in, we are on.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
It just came off the heels of the Home and
Garden Show, which is a great show. By the way,
They do a great job down there. Loved it was.
It was crowded, it was well done, So kudos to
Amanda and your and your whole team down there. If
you were at the Home and Garden Show, I thought
it was laid out really well, but a lot of
questions were coming up, and you know, as we go on, Chris,
(13:46):
a lot of the people are starting to ask the
right questions. So the the information is getting out there,
especially about remodeling. Where it all starts is with a
good plan. And we've been talking about design, why it's important,
and now I want to kind of dovetail into this.
We talked about why good design is important, why using
(14:07):
industry experts, What is a designer, what are the qualifications?
I said in the last segment, it's always better to
use somebody who's worn the tool belt and kind of
developed their design. As time goes on. One of the
things I noticed, Chris, because I was doing all the
design for our company before you and I started working
(14:28):
in concert together is it's kind of like Forsache. It's
kind of like Louis Vuitton. Everything starts to look like
it has a flavor to it when you're a designer. Okay,
So I think one of the reasons why I decided
to call on your expertise and work in collaboration with
you is because we needed to put some sprinkles on
(14:50):
the ice cream. We needed to change it a little bit,
because designers tend to have similar subjective ideas. I know,
blue gray is big right now. I've always been an
earth tone guy, so the lion's share of my projects
are done that way. You are able to change some
of that. So when we talk about poor design, because
(15:13):
obviously there's good design and there's bad design, what are
the risks of poor design? What would you say are
some of the risks of that?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Well, that's a broad you know, there's a lot of
things that could be poor design. Poor design could be
something that, you know, as we talked about earlier, that
just simply doesn't work from a construction standpoint, or isn't
the best way to handle something, whether it's structural, whether
it you know, it may be a water issue. In
(15:42):
other words, this design, yeah, we like it, this is great, whatever,
But that roofline of that addition tying into your house
is a real potential there for a leak or a
nice dam or something, especially here in Wisconsin, you know,
and you spoke to this. You know, designers know what
is their background? Have they Do they understand that or
(16:05):
is it just this looks really nice and yes, the
homeowner looks it and goes, yeah, that looks great. Well,
the homeowner it's not their job to know that might
be a potential problem. But in my mind, it is
that designer and that design build firms or whoever's going
to build it.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know, you know, I'm laughing. I always like to
I always like to use analogies. As you know. I'm
thinking about like when you're watching the Grammys or the
Oscars and you see some of these dresses that the
women wear and you're looking at it, You're going, it's
a really pretty dress. But if she walks, if she
if she extends her step another two inches, her breast
is going to fall out of the dress, right, and
(16:40):
and and so functionality great point. You know, designers looking
to go we want it to be beautiful, we want
you to go wow, But how is it going to
work in its in its environment? And are you going
to be able to walk down the aisle without the
roof leaking? Right? So it's it's like, I think that's
a great point. I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Oh no, that's why I was laughing at Yeah, you know,
but you know, so that's one aspect and that you know,
and that that really there's nothing but experience that's going
to get you to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
The other thing you touched on there is you know,
designers might have a style and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I mean people, you know, people.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Go to that dress designer or that whatever because that
is their style and they like it. I've been doing
this a very long time. One of the things I like,
and I think is unique to me, is I like variety.
In other words, I just got done doing a sixty
five hundred square foot super modern custom home. Love it,
(17:39):
but I also love doing you know, the addition to
this eighteen hundred's farmhouse type of thing and everything in between.
So that that really and that's that's a personal thing.
And that's kind of back to your you know, either
get three estimates or talk to three people, because again,
this relationship, we need to find the right person, you know.
And and there may be does that's just awesome at
(18:01):
you know, doing condos downtown, But do I need them
doing my lake house? Maybe not. Maybe that's just not
their niche. And those are things that you'll just find
out early on, so that you know, that's maybe not
bad design, it's just a bad fit.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Then in bad design, you know, again, functional is the
kitchen laid out properly?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Is it going to be easy to work in? Or
is it just pretty?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And some designers have a real problem with with balance,
with balancing you know, traffic patterns and functionality with drama.
I've always been a drama guy, always with when I'm designing,
I want people to walk in and.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Go wow, yep, But why can't we have both exactly right?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But that's what comes with clients, right, That's what comes
with sign and learning.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And that's you know, the it's very easy to make
really pretty pictures in the computer and go wow, that's
that's so cool. I love it. Then to get halfway
into the project and have your contractor come to you
and go, I don't know what they were thinking here,
but this doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you know, and it's.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Going to cost you fifty thousand dollars more to make
it right though, those are the headaches we avoid in
the design build world through experience.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, and you know what in the earlier segment, we
were talking about the disconnect between say, an outside firm
doing the design and another general contractor doing it. You know,
I think that a lot of times people look at
you know, I want to go to this person to
build it, but there's a there's such a huge disconnect
between the people that have to build it then and
(19:32):
the budget. And we talked, we talked a lot about
that when you're dealing with the other thing where I
was going with this is there's also a liability issue.
You know, when that bad roof line starts to leak,
is it the fault of the designer or is it
the fault of the contractor? And I'm not sure, but
I know it's going to take a Philadelphia lawyer to
figure it out. When you're dealing with the design build
(19:53):
firm and you know, cursioners on the blueprints, cursioners on
the contract. The truth is there's only one set of
shoulders to put the liability exactly. And so knowing that
we're not going to do something that you may may
want desperately, but we know isn't going to work. And
we've been in those I've had people, I want a
spiral staircase. Another guy wanted to pull that he could
(20:15):
slide down, and I'm like, this is not We don't
do this kind of stuff. It just doesn't make sense
to us. And I'm sure there's somebody out there that
will yep. But down the line, if something happens, that's it.
We touched on it a couple of minutes ago. So
there's there's two schools of thought with design build. You know,
people come to my booth and they tell me and again,
because we just we just finished up at the Home
(20:37):
and Garden show, I'm trying to keep this stuff fresh
that that people are asking. They'll say, well, why should
I pay for design one? The other guy's going to
do it for free. Let's talk about that. Okay, don't
you love it? I gotta get back up off the Florida. Yeah, yeah, well,
So one of the things that I tell them is
I look at. I say, look at, there's no such
thing as free design, because somebody's getting paid, somebody getting
(21:00):
on salary, somebody's getting paid per design. Somebody has to
be paid for that, and that goes into the company's overhead.
So when you deal with the company that says they're
doing quotation marks free design, that's going into their overhead,
which means that not only are you paying for your
design when you do business with that company, but you're
paying for everybody's design who didn't do it because it's
(21:22):
in their overhead exactly. And the other thing, and I'm
gonna let you talk in just a minute, but this
is the other thing I love because I say, you
know what, if somebody says they're doing something free for you,
Like if you come over and say, hey, Nick, I'm
gonna cut your grass for you today for free, and
I look out there and there's lines in the grass
and you didn't trim it, right, It's hard for me
to really come and bitch at you about it because
you did it for free when you're paying for design.
And I've had people, the funniest one I've ever had is.
(21:45):
I showed them my design for the kitchen. They looked
at it and a waitf looked at me. She said,
this sucks, and you know what, good for you? Thanks
for telling me, right, because it's subjective, right, Oh? Absolutely,
If I was doing it for free, she's not going
to be able to hold me accountable. So what are
your thoughts on free?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we might need three shows for this.
But as you said, first of all, nothing is free.
But at the same time, you know, what are you
getting with that free design. I've been doing this a
long time. I know what it takes to do design
(22:25):
to the level we do.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
What Okay, let me ask you this. Sorry to interrupt again,
but it's so important. How many hours on the average
kitchen yep? I know averages are scary. I always say
if you if you put two buckets of water on
the floor, one with ice water, one with boiling water,
take your shoes and socks, put your feet in one
of each bucket. On the average you should be comfortable.
It illustrates extreme.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, but.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, a good a good kitchen design could be you know,
probably as little as twenty five hours and as much
as seventy five hours to do that, right, Yes, and
that's that's where I was going. You're right on. It's
you know, free design. Was that Oh my god, I
have a meeting with X y Z client tomorrow. I
(23:11):
better start knocking something out tonight so I can show
them something. Is that the free design? And believe me,
I see stuff. I mean I have homeowners come to
me with we met with so and so, and this
is the design they gave them, and they hand me this,
you know, eight and a half by eleven three page
thing and it's like, what is this? You know? And
(23:32):
then the program the software that we use, that program
that we use to design, you know, that's a five
thousand dollars program. Well you could go to Office People.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
By subscription every year to keep Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At Office People, I can get a thirty five dollars
program that I can make something look like a design,
you know, so that that you know, you get what
you pay for.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Well, I always say you don't always get what you
pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for,
you know. So it's like I will and I hate
to say this because I know there's a lot of
companies doing this, but I always look at free design
as a shield for the next step in the sales program.
So we're going to hand you something to keep you involved. Okay,
I'm way past the time in my career where I
need to hand you something to stay involved. We're way
(24:20):
busier than we have to worry about trying to get
the people and and and creating this unrealistic thing. Chris,
we got about two minutes left. Let's hit on the
three most important things about design, and again we're going
to do this again next week because we're going to
talk about design some more. So what people are looking
for design? Three? What do you think the three biggest Well.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think the first thing is information? You know what
what is this project? Is it to solve a problem?
Is it to enhance a lifestyle? Is it a statics?
Is it all of those things? So knowledge, you know,
knowing exactly what what are we trying to solve, What
are we trying to accomplish? Then you know what what
(24:59):
we're doing, and how is it blend with the existing home?
Is it going to match? Is it going is it
not supposed to match? Is it something that down the
road they're going to be changing siding? So this should
be that what's what's going on there? So all those
things play into good design. But ultimately, at the end
of the day, what is the homeowner after? What are
they trying to accomplish? Is this going to do it?
(25:22):
Is it going to do it for the best value?
Is it going to add value to the home from
a whether it's resale or equity standpoint, All of those
things are part of good design. Did I do something
that is so unique that I better live here untill
they carry me out in a pine box because nobody's
buying this. And if that's your idea, good for you,
(25:46):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No problem.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I've done all kinds of crazy stuff that nobody else
would buy, but that's what they wanted. But knowing that
and designing towards that end, I think it's just a
matter of, you know, getting as much information and from
the homeowner as to what they're really trying to do,
and then letting our expertise and knowledge and experience guide them.
(26:08):
And that's what we're here for. We're not here to sell.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
You what we like.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We're here to guide you to get the most for
your money, the most value, the most aesthetics, the most function,
And that's what we're here. We want to be sitting
side by side with you at the table, not across
the table from you, trying to sell yourself great points.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Listen, we're going to do this again next week. Thanks
for coming in on a Sunday. We're out of time,
so tune in next week. We're going to continue this
all about design on Newstalk eleven thirty To be isn
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