April 26, 2023 • 15 mins
Tracey Baptiste is a New York Times bestselling author of seventeen books and several short stories for children. She is best known for The Jumbies series which have been Junior Library Guild selections, We Need Diverse Books "Must Read" titles, New York Public Libraries Staff Picks, and Best Books of the year by Bank Street Books and NPR. Her latest book, MERMAID AND PIRATE is available now
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
No, this is not live.It's completely recorded, broadcasting from one of
the top recording studios in all ofNashville, Tennessee. Yeah, that's not
true at all. I'm probably athome doing this. He's been called one
of the greatest thinkers of his time. Literally, no one has ever called
me that. I knew. Kindof agree with it, though, Right
Right twenty seven teen ressippient to theNobel Peace Prize. That's just a flat
(00:23):
Ali talking politics, community, race, religion, entertainment, sports, and
whatever the fuck else. The WhitePodcast, Episode one hundred and two,
Now The Dola White Podcast. Myguest today, author the new book Mermaid
and Pirate, Tracy Baptist. Thankyou for being there, Thank you,
thank you so much for having me. So. I got your book.
(00:46):
It's great for kids. I readit to my daughter just the other night.
I wanted to know kind of whatgot you started on this path of
Mermaids of all things. I knowyou wrote an op ed in The New
York Times a couple of years agocalled Mermaids have Always been Black? What
was kind of the trigger that sparkedthis journey? For right? So,
the podcast started because you know,people were having reactions to the idea of
(01:10):
Disney casting Hallie Bailey in the roleof Ariel for The Little Mermaid. And
so there were a lot of peoplewho were tagging me in social media posts
because some of the work that Ihad done up to that point included fantasy
characters which also included mermaids and acreature called Mama Jelow who is from Caribbean
(01:34):
folklore and also West African folklore.And because of the kinds of conversations that
we were all having online, Irealized that people really did not understand that
there were mermaids in cultures way beforeHans Christian Anderson wrote The Little Mermaid.
(01:55):
So the op ed kind of camefrom that, from the research that I
had known from, you know,studying folklore from all over the world.
And so in the OpEd I talkabout the very first mermaids that ever exist
in you know, sort of storytellinghistory come from Africa. There are cave
paintings of mermaids in South Africa,and then there are mermaids in ancient stories
(02:23):
from China and India. The Maoripeople from New Zealand have mermaids. There
are mermaids in Brazil. So thereare all these mermaids from all of these
cultures around the world, and peoplejust have not been exposed to any of
these stories. So after the OpEdcame out and people were still talking about
(02:43):
certain things, my editor actually askedme if I would write a story that
centered a black mermaid. So Mermaidand Pirates started with my editor saying,
hey, why don't you write ablack mermaid story since you know this is
something that is familiar to you.And I was like, why did I
think of that myself? What doesit say about us as I guess a
(03:07):
country that we're arguing over the raceof a character in a film, also
a fantasy characters. It's not basedon a you know, an actual person,
right, Yeah, it's playing JillBiden in this film, right,
exactly right. So you know,there's there's a couple of things. There's
(03:30):
one there is the lack of familiaritywith um, the fact that there are
stories of these kinds of creatures allover the world, which is one of
the things that I talk about inmy op ed um. But also just
the concept that Okay, if you'regoing to create a creature that does not
exist, why can't that creature looklike anything? And it really stems from
(03:57):
you know, some people really havea lack of imagination, like they cannot
imagine anything beyond themselves, which isreally unfortunate. It's just such a stunted
imagination to like not be able toexpect and ask, like what's right in
front of you in your mirror.It's like really unfortunate to include the idea
(04:17):
that there might be mermaids that looklike different things. And the thing that
I like the most about the kindof research that I've done is that mermaids
in stories from all over the worldlook very differently than even the mermaids we're
used to, Like their physical traitsare really quite different. So it really
kind of just depends on you know, which mermaid you're talking about from which
(04:42):
culture. It can look like anyrace, but also like their bodies can
be totally different than what we're usedto. Wow, I can't imagine like
gaining knowledge about mermaids the way youhave it. How hard of a subject
is that to research? Not hard? Where would you start, I guess?
(05:03):
I mean, honestly, there areso many stories about mermaids that you
can find at like your library thatwill tell you all of these things.
It really isn't hard. It isavailable and it is out there. Like
I did not even need to leavemy desk to find out some of the
(05:26):
things that I found out about.But yeah, the thing is that the
stories that get told, and thestories that get centered, and the stories
that get made into like big splashybooks and big, you know, blockbuster
movies tend not to be the storiesfrom other cultures outside of Europe and North
America. And that's really what itis, like, you know, those
(05:47):
stories have not had a chance tobe told yet, and so we are
less familiar with all of the othermermaids that exist. I didn't even know
until recently that there was this rateInuit story UM with with a mermaid um
called Sedna. Like that's the thingthat I recently found out, just as
(06:09):
I was like going through um lookingfor stuff for yet another article. And
that was something that I came acrossthat I had not in all of my
years of like looking at things andlooking at folklorees and stuff like that had
not come across that one. Sothat one was even near to me.
But again that was you know,thank thank you librarians, like just come
(06:31):
and they hand you these books andyou're like, what the is all these
things? Would you say that waskind of the the Inuit story is kind
of them? I always ask authorsthis, especially when they had to do
Most authors have to do some kindof form of research before they write a
book, right, uh. Andwhen you're doing research, you're gonna stumble
upon information that you didn't know,and some of that information is going to
kind of blow your mind and you'regonna be like, oh my god,
(06:53):
Like, how would you say theInuit story? Was that for you?
Or was there something else that youfound out that you were like, oh
my god, that's amazing, LikeI didn't How did I not know this?
How does everybody not know this?I know? Well, I mean
the Semni story definitely was one ofthose. And it's also like one of
the more gruesome mermaid stories. Here'sthe thing about all mermaid stories, Like
all mermaid stories are not cute andsweet, like they're pretty brutal, all
(07:16):
of them. But the one actuallythat kind of got me was one of
the Mayori stories from New Zealand andjust the idea of these mermaids with like
these tongues that are like tubes andthey like basically tail like knock over everybody's
boats. Like their whole thing isjust like sinking boats and killing sailors.
(07:38):
This is all I arias. Wow, kind of remind you of the people
in the last Black Panther film,right, Like that's exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, they're very very much likethat. They're under there, they're vindictive,
they don't care. I wonder ifthat was based on something the Black
Panthers, those people, I think, yeah, they're based on I think
(08:01):
some other South American folklore and thereare and again like there's several of them,
right, So there's so so manyof these kinds of stories that are
out there that haven't had a chanceto be told yet. And this is
why people are like so surprised bythe idea of a black mermaid or you
(08:22):
know, even a black pirate,which that really surprises me when people are
surprised at about black pirates, becauselike the pirates like in their heyday were
you know, the Spanish main wasthe Caribbean, So like, who are
the people who are living in theCaribbean, Like it's not Europeans. I
was going to ask you about aboutpirates because I think in America that that
(08:43):
is kind of the standard. It'sit's like a white, you know guy
with an eyepatch, or even likea Viking type you know, voyager type
person. But obviously that's one facetof history and not a snapshot. So
what do we need to know aboutpirates? Um? The thing to know
(09:05):
about pirates really is that, youknow, um, the sort of the
heyday piracy when people talk about pirates, um, these this was you know,
up and down the Caribbean Sea,UM up into like places like the
Bahamas and into Florida. Like thatwas where pirates were doing all of their
(09:28):
you know, nefarious pirates and privateeringand WHATNOTUM. So when you go to
various islands in the Caribbean, likethere's a lot of these places where like
pirates actually landed. And where Igrew up in Trinidad and Tobago, um,
I think a lot of people probablyknow the story of um Charger Island
(09:50):
from Robinson Crusoe and Tobago, whichis the sister island to Trinidad, which
is where I grew up, wassaid to have been tres your islands.
So I grew up knowing that,you know, pirates were part of my
heritage. And what I'm looking aroundthe island that people who live there,
like it's mostly people from the Africancontinent, people from the Indian continent,
(10:16):
you know, the Asian continents.That's really the majority, like ninety nine
percent of the population are black andbrown people. So what I'm thinking about
pirates living there. Of course theylook like all my cousins, right,
look like all my uncles and auntsand whatnot. I would imagine there was
quite a bit of piracy around Africaand around anywhere with a coastline, and
(10:39):
no current has more coastline than Africa, right, Like that's right, Yeah,
you would think there were, yeah, you would. It makes sense
for there to be pirates there too, right, exactly, right, Yeah,
And there were a lot of likeWest African countries and also like internal
because they had a lot of umthere were a lot of rivers, and
they had like whole naval fleets umthat would traverse the rivers because this is
(11:05):
how they were doing trade. Soof course there were people who were like
and you know, like they werefighting with each other all the time because
they were all of these empires inAfrica, and so like one empire you
know, like would send their shipsup you know, like some river or
whatever, and then some other empirewould be like, yeah, we're taking
your stuff. You know. Solike the idea of piracy, you know,
(11:26):
it's quite long. It's been goingon for a really long time.
Uh, and yeah, for surethere has been um you know, yeah,
the idea of pirates just being likeyou know, Johnny Depp is like
that is not a thing. It'sIt's sad though how much history is whitewashed
though, Like even even in folklore, like even things that mystical creatures that
(11:50):
may or may not have actually existed, they're still we're still whitewashing them.
And it's like why why why indeed? And I think really it has a
lot to do with a complete lackof exposure, Like people just have not
been exposed to these other stories andhopefully, you know, like something like
Mermain and Pirate is like helping tolike bring it like here here. It
(12:13):
is like I was about, like, let's let's talk about the book,
so, tell us about the book, tell us the book. So so
in Mermain and Pirate, Um,the thing that I was thinking about really
was, um, you know,what would happen if these two creatures from
these two different places met up andhad to try to communicate with each other.
(12:37):
Obviously they wouldn't speak the same languagebecause they come from two different places.
So Pirate, of course speaks Piratespeak, and everybody knows what that
sounds like. You know, alot of art and a lot of grunting,
and Mermaid speaks. Mermaid speaks,so she talks like it sounds like
water. It's like a lot ofglove, love, lovedy and things like
that. And so they, youknow, they a storm literally washes the
(13:01):
two of them together. They sortof crash into each other and Pirate has
to like get Mermaid out of hisgnats. Her hair is caught in his
nets. And I know a lotof girls are gonna know, but that's
like when you're swimming in the oceanand something gets caught in your hair,
you gotta get it out. That'slike, that's not fun. So that's
their first meeting. They gotta,you know, try to he's got to
(13:22):
try to help her. They're superunhappy, both of them, but like
very quickly they find themselves into theseother difficulties, right Mermaid, Pirates,
sorry, is trying to bury histreasure. Mermaid is like, don't bury
your truth, that's not a goodspot. But you know, they don't
speak the same language, so hedoesn't understand. And then she's got to
(13:43):
get him out of his scrape.And then something else happens and Mermaid finds
herself in trouble and pirates gotta gether out of that scrape. And so,
you know, they find ways tocommunicate with each other even though they
don't speak the same language, andthey really find friendship in that communication between
the two of them. They figureout how to read each other really with
(14:09):
nonverbal communication, and they learn totrust each other. And then they miss
each other when they like you know, have to like go their separate ways,
which I think kids will really understand. I love that. And it's
available now, Craig. Yes,yes, it just came out on Tuesday,
So you can find it anywhere you'reany any bookstore, um, you
(14:30):
know, like a brick and mortarbookstore or online. You can find it
also at your local library. Andum, if it gets optioned by Disney
or Illumination or anything like that andyou're looking for you know, a voice
actor, you got the right.I've been on the air in Nashville,
Tennessee on radio for twenty one yearsnow on the same station. And my
(14:54):
goal in life is for somebody thatgrew up listening to me to be like,
you know, whose voice would beperfect for this character in the any
meeting, and then would be me, and then I would make three movies,
millions of dollars, and I wouldjust all right, you just got
to start practicing your argus. Yes, you're good to go. I'm gonna
go retire somewhere that my may ormay not have pirates or mermaids, somewhere
we're close to the beach. That'sthe goal. Jasey Vetti's the book is
(15:16):
Mermaid and Pirate. Thank you somuch for taking time to do this today.
Thank you so much for having me
No, this is not live.It's completely recorded, broadcasting from one of
the top recording studios in all ofNashville, Tennessee. Yeah, that's not
true at all. I'm probably athome doing this. He's been called one
of the greatest thinkers of his time. Literally, no one has ever called
me that. I knew. Kindof agree with it, though, Right
Right twenty seven teen ressippient to theNobel Peace Prize. That's just a flat
(00:23):
Ali talking politics, community, race, religion, entertainment, sports, and
whatever the fuck else. The WhitePodcast, Episode one hundred and two,
Now The Dola White Podcast. Myguest today, author the new book Mermaid
and Pirate, Tracy Baptist. Thankyou for being there, Thank you,
thank you so much for having me. So. I got your book.
(00:46):
It's great for kids. I readit to my daughter just the other night.
I wanted to know kind of whatgot you started on this path of
Mermaids of all things. I knowyou wrote an op ed in The New
York Times a couple of years agocalled Mermaids have Always been Black? What
was kind of the trigger that sparkedthis journey? For right? So,
the podcast started because you know,people were having reactions to the idea of
(01:10):
Disney casting Hallie Bailey in the roleof Ariel for The Little Mermaid. And
so there were a lot of peoplewho were tagging me in social media posts
because some of the work that Ihad done up to that point included fantasy
characters which also included mermaids and acreature called Mama Jelow who is from Caribbean
(01:34):
folklore and also West African folklore.And because of the kinds of conversations that
we were all having online, Irealized that people really did not understand that
there were mermaids in cultures way beforeHans Christian Anderson wrote The Little Mermaid.
(01:55):
So the op ed kind of camefrom that, from the research that I
had known from, you know,studying folklore from all over the world.
And so in the OpEd I talkabout the very first mermaids that ever exist
in you know, sort of storytellinghistory come from Africa. There are cave
paintings of mermaids in South Africa,and then there are mermaids in ancient stories
(02:23):
from China and India. The Maoripeople from New Zealand have mermaids. There
are mermaids in Brazil. So thereare all these mermaids from all of these
cultures around the world, and peoplejust have not been exposed to any of
these stories. So after the OpEdcame out and people were still talking about
(02:43):
certain things, my editor actually askedme if I would write a story that
centered a black mermaid. So Mermaidand Pirates started with my editor saying,
hey, why don't you write ablack mermaid story since you know this is
something that is familiar to you.And I was like, why did I
think of that myself? What doesit say about us as I guess a
(03:07):
country that we're arguing over the raceof a character in a film, also
a fantasy characters. It's not basedon a you know, an actual person,
right, Yeah, it's playing JillBiden in this film, right,
exactly right. So you know,there's there's a couple of things. There's
(03:30):
one there is the lack of familiaritywith um, the fact that there are
stories of these kinds of creatures allover the world, which is one of
the things that I talk about inmy op ed um. But also just
the concept that Okay, if you'regoing to create a creature that does not
exist, why can't that creature looklike anything? And it really stems from
(03:57):
you know, some people really havea lack of imagination, like they cannot
imagine anything beyond themselves, which isreally unfortunate. It's just such a stunted
imagination to like not be able toexpect and ask, like what's right in
front of you in your mirror.It's like really unfortunate to include the idea
(04:17):
that there might be mermaids that looklike different things. And the thing that
I like the most about the kindof research that I've done is that mermaids
in stories from all over the worldlook very differently than even the mermaids we're
used to, Like their physical traitsare really quite different. So it really
kind of just depends on you know, which mermaid you're talking about from which
(04:42):
culture. It can look like anyrace, but also like their bodies can
be totally different than what we're usedto. Wow, I can't imagine like
gaining knowledge about mermaids the way youhave it. How hard of a subject
is that to research? Not hard? Where would you start, I guess?
(05:03):
I mean, honestly, there areso many stories about mermaids that you
can find at like your library thatwill tell you all of these things.
It really isn't hard. It isavailable and it is out there. Like
I did not even need to leavemy desk to find out some of the
(05:26):
things that I found out about.But yeah, the thing is that the
stories that get told, and thestories that get centered, and the stories
that get made into like big splashybooks and big, you know, blockbuster
movies tend not to be the storiesfrom other cultures outside of Europe and North
America. And that's really what itis, like, you know, those
(05:47):
stories have not had a chance tobe told yet, and so we are
less familiar with all of the othermermaids that exist. I didn't even know
until recently that there was this rateInuit story UM with with a mermaid um
called Sedna. Like that's the thingthat I recently found out, just as
(06:09):
I was like going through um lookingfor stuff for yet another article. And
that was something that I came acrossthat I had not in all of my
years of like looking at things andlooking at folklorees and stuff like that had
not come across that one. Sothat one was even near to me.
But again that was you know,thank thank you librarians, like just come
(06:31):
and they hand you these books andyou're like, what the is all these
things? Would you say that waskind of the the Inuit story is kind
of them? I always ask authorsthis, especially when they had to do
Most authors have to do some kindof form of research before they write a
book, right, uh. Andwhen you're doing research, you're gonna stumble
upon information that you didn't know,and some of that information is going to
kind of blow your mind and you'regonna be like, oh my god,
(06:53):
Like, how would you say theInuit story? Was that for you?
Or was there something else that youfound out that you were like, oh
my god, that's amazing, LikeI didn't How did I not know this?
How does everybody not know this?I know? Well, I mean
the Semni story definitely was one ofthose. And it's also like one of
the more gruesome mermaid stories. Here'sthe thing about all mermaid stories, Like
all mermaid stories are not cute andsweet, like they're pretty brutal, all
(07:16):
of them. But the one actuallythat kind of got me was one of
the Mayori stories from New Zealand andjust the idea of these mermaids with like
these tongues that are like tubes andthey like basically tail like knock over everybody's
boats. Like their whole thing isjust like sinking boats and killing sailors.
(07:38):
This is all I arias. Wow, kind of remind you of the people
in the last Black Panther film,right, Like that's exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, they're very very much likethat. They're under there, they're vindictive,
they don't care. I wonder ifthat was based on something the Black
Panthers, those people, I think, yeah, they're based on I think
(08:01):
some other South American folklore and thereare and again like there's several of them,
right, So there's so so manyof these kinds of stories that are
out there that haven't had a chanceto be told yet. And this is
why people are like so surprised bythe idea of a black mermaid or you
(08:22):
know, even a black pirate,which that really surprises me when people are
surprised at about black pirates, becauselike the pirates like in their heyday were
you know, the Spanish main wasthe Caribbean, So like, who are
the people who are living in theCaribbean, Like it's not Europeans. I
was going to ask you about aboutpirates because I think in America that that
(08:43):
is kind of the standard. It'sit's like a white, you know guy
with an eyepatch, or even likea Viking type you know, voyager type
person. But obviously that's one facetof history and not a snapshot. So
what do we need to know aboutpirates? Um? The thing to know
(09:05):
about pirates really is that, youknow, um, the sort of the
heyday piracy when people talk about pirates, um, these this was you know,
up and down the Caribbean Sea,UM up into like places like the
Bahamas and into Florida. Like thatwas where pirates were doing all of their
(09:28):
you know, nefarious pirates and privateeringand WHATNOTUM. So when you go to
various islands in the Caribbean, likethere's a lot of these places where like
pirates actually landed. And where Igrew up in Trinidad and Tobago, um,
I think a lot of people probablyknow the story of um Charger Island
(09:50):
from Robinson Crusoe and Tobago, whichis the sister island to Trinidad, which
is where I grew up, wassaid to have been tres your islands.
So I grew up knowing that,you know, pirates were part of my
heritage. And what I'm looking aroundthe island that people who live there,
like it's mostly people from the Africancontinent, people from the Indian continent,
(10:16):
you know, the Asian continents.That's really the majority, like ninety nine
percent of the population are black andbrown people. So what I'm thinking about
pirates living there. Of course theylook like all my cousins, right,
look like all my uncles and auntsand whatnot. I would imagine there was
quite a bit of piracy around Africaand around anywhere with a coastline, and
(10:39):
no current has more coastline than Africa, right, Like that's right, Yeah,
you would think there were, yeah, you would. It makes sense
for there to be pirates there too, right, exactly, right, Yeah,
And there were a lot of likeWest African countries and also like internal
because they had a lot of umthere were a lot of rivers, and
they had like whole naval fleets umthat would traverse the rivers because this is
(11:05):
how they were doing trade. Soof course there were people who were like
and you know, like they werefighting with each other all the time because
they were all of these empires inAfrica, and so like one empire you
know, like would send their shipsup you know, like some river or
whatever, and then some other empirewould be like, yeah, we're taking
your stuff. You know. Solike the idea of piracy, you know,
(11:26):
it's quite long. It's been goingon for a really long time.
Uh, and yeah, for surethere has been um you know, yeah,
the idea of pirates just being likeyou know, Johnny Depp is like
that is not a thing. It'sIt's sad though how much history is whitewashed
though, Like even even in folklore, like even things that mystical creatures that
(11:50):
may or may not have actually existed, they're still we're still whitewashing them.
And it's like why why why indeed? And I think really it has a
lot to do with a complete lackof exposure, Like people just have not
been exposed to these other stories andhopefully, you know, like something like
Mermain and Pirate is like helping tolike bring it like here here. It
(12:13):
is like I was about, like, let's let's talk about the book,
so, tell us about the book, tell us the book. So so
in Mermain and Pirate, Um,the thing that I was thinking about really
was, um, you know,what would happen if these two creatures from
these two different places met up andhad to try to communicate with each other.
(12:37):
Obviously they wouldn't speak the same languagebecause they come from two different places.
So Pirate, of course speaks Piratespeak, and everybody knows what that
sounds like. You know, alot of art and a lot of grunting,
and Mermaid speaks. Mermaid speaks,so she talks like it sounds like
water. It's like a lot ofglove, love, lovedy and things like
that. And so they, youknow, they a storm literally washes the
(13:01):
two of them together. They sortof crash into each other and Pirate has
to like get Mermaid out of hisgnats. Her hair is caught in his
nets. And I know a lotof girls are gonna know, but that's
like when you're swimming in the oceanand something gets caught in your hair,
you gotta get it out. That'slike, that's not fun. So that's
their first meeting. They gotta,you know, try to he's got to
(13:22):
try to help her. They're superunhappy, both of them, but like
very quickly they find themselves into theseother difficulties, right Mermaid, Pirates,
sorry, is trying to bury histreasure. Mermaid is like, don't bury
your truth, that's not a goodspot. But you know, they don't
speak the same language, so hedoesn't understand. And then she's got to
(13:43):
get him out of his scrape.And then something else happens and Mermaid finds
herself in trouble and pirates gotta gether out of that scrape. And so,
you know, they find ways tocommunicate with each other even though they
don't speak the same language, andthey really find friendship in that communication between
the two of them. They figureout how to read each other really with
(14:09):
nonverbal communication, and they learn totrust each other. And then they miss
each other when they like you know, have to like go their separate ways,
which I think kids will really understand. I love that. And it's
available now, Craig. Yes,yes, it just came out on Tuesday,
So you can find it anywhere you'reany any bookstore, um, you
(14:30):
know, like a brick and mortarbookstore or online. You can find it
also at your local library. Andum, if it gets optioned by Disney
or Illumination or anything like that andyou're looking for you know, a voice
actor, you got the right.I've been on the air in Nashville,
Tennessee on radio for twenty one yearsnow on the same station. And my
(14:54):
goal in life is for somebody thatgrew up listening to me to be like,
you know, whose voice would beperfect for this character in the any
meeting, and then would be me, and then I would make three movies,
millions of dollars, and I wouldjust all right, you just got
to start practicing your argus. Yes, you're good to go. I'm gonna
go retire somewhere that my may ormay not have pirates or mermaids, somewhere
we're close to the beach. That'sthe goal. Jasey Vetti's the book is
(15:16):
Mermaid and Pirate. Thank you somuch for taking time to do this today.
Thank you so much for having me
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.