Rick Gosselin, veteran NFL columnist, joins Wayne & Matt

Wayne and Matt talk about the Super Bowl, Pro Football Hall of Fame and more with veteran NFL columnist Rick Gosselin.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think the officials right now are officiating more to
the league office than the art to the game on
the field. I suggested a couple years back what they
ought to do is at the end of each end
of each regular season, have the thirty two head coaches
vote on which carew should advance. I think you'd get

(00:20):
the best referees and the best cruise that way, and
I think it would also foster a better relationship on
field relationship between the officiating cruise and the head coaches,
because right now the head the officials anchiet to New York,
not to the game on the field. If you let
the thirty two head coaches beet, they would pick the

(00:40):
best cruise, the best referees.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is the Larovian la Peye Podcast, a production of
iHeartRadio Podcasts, with host Swayne Larvie, the voice of the
Green Bay Packers, and Matt Lapey, the voice of Wisconsin
Badgers football and men's basketball. The Laravie la Pey Podcast
guest is presented by UW Credit Union. Here for every U.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
HI, everybody, I'm Wayne Laravie, Ay right, Matt Lapey. On
this episode of the Laravi La Pey Podcast, Our guest
is Rick Gislert, Award winning writer and columnist who has
covered the NFL for the better part of the last
fifty years, much of it with the Dallas Morning News.
He's a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame
and Rick's many credits over the years. His compilation of
special team's ratings is legendary in the NFL. Rick is

(01:30):
also a member of the selection committee at the Hall
of Fame and we have a new class set to
be inducted this summer. Stay tuned, good stuff coming up
on the Leravila Pay podcast. Ready to give fees the
stiff arm uw Credit Union can help because since nineteen
thirty one they've been committed to eliminating fees for members.
Joined today at UWCU dot org. Insured by NCUA. Terms

(01:54):
and conditions apply. We welcome into the Leravila Pay Podcast.
Rick Guisland, longtime NFL new columnists Dallas Morning News. His
website is Rickgislin dot com and it's full of some interesting,
in depth pieces on the NFL over the years and
the people that make this game go. Rick is a
member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee

(02:15):
as well. We got a lot to talk about. But
let's first off, Rick, the Kansas City Chiefs since you
and I covered them in the late seventies to mid eighties,
they've come a long way despite the loss of the
Super Bowl on Sunday.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yeah, but they.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Sunday they looked like the Rick Goisler Chiefs. I covered
the Chiefs of thirteen years and went to one playoff game.
That's what they look like. They have come a long way.
But it's all about the quarterback. I mean, this whole
league is not driven by the quarterback. You look at
every Hall of Fame coach is tied to one half
fam quarterman one and one of Paul Brown, Otto, Graham, Lombardi, Star, Noel, Bradshaw, Walsh,

(02:55):
Montana Johnson, Aateman, Brady Belichick. If you get that guy
should win multi super Bowls in the true franchise guys.
There are maybe four or five franchise quarterbacks in the
NFL right now. There are a lot of teams that
think they have a franchise quarterback and are paying quarterbacks
to be franchise guys. But they are and that's why
the Chiefs have been resurrected. It's all because of the one.

Speaker 5 (03:17):
Guy with that being said, if you're not protecting your guy,
as we saw on Sunday as we were talking before
we started recording, It's still about the trenches, isn't it too, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
It's always been about the trenches. I go back to
having covered the NFC st You know, when Parcels is
winning Super Bowls, the offensive line, defensive line, when Gibbs
when's winning Super Bowls. It was the Hogs in the
depth of defensive line. And the Cowboys had the best
offensive line of football in the nineties, and then they
went eight deep on the defensive line. They were always
rotating fresh bodies in offensive lines. Don't rotate guys in

(03:52):
defensive lines. Can they have fresh legs going against tired legs.
And the Eagles had the best defensive front football and
for whatever reason, has never placed a premium on the
tackle position. He's solid inside the two guards and center.
They had to move Phony out to tackle, and I
think this is a wake up call, Frandy. He's got
a dress tackle position. If you haven't franchised quarterback, your

(04:14):
number one responsibility is to protect him. And they Mahomes
was running for his life. Now, this is a team
that had so many one score games. They were always
asking the quarterback to bail them out, and by a
LARTs he was running for his life most of the season.
Took a lot of hits, and I think after the
six sacks and the other hits he took in the

(04:34):
Super Bowl, I think they've better realize, you know, so
we better address the offense of bat We got to
get this fixed.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, you know, And if a lot of us on
the outside looking and didn't realize how big the problem
was for Kansas City on that offensive line, especially with
the injury at the tackle position, they move an all
pro guard out to tackle and it just wasn't going
to work against this Philadelphia rush.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
The other thing Rick that has.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Come to the four, and we've talked about this in
Green Bay this year, is the need to get pressure
on the quarterback, legitimate pressure without doing the exotic blitzing
and the things that compromise your defense on the second
to third level. The four man pass rush. Talk a
little bit about that. Is that come even more to
the four from what you've seen in the last couple

(05:17):
of years in the NFL.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Think yeah. I think in the Super Bowl they were
able to pressure Mahomes with four guys. That left seven
guys to cover five and Mahomes would need four to
five seconds to weed out the open receiver or elect
receiver find space. And that defensive line was so good
they were going to give it to them. Now, the

(05:39):
tough thing is, how do you assemble four guys like that?
How do you assemble You almost need four number one
draft picks to put that line together. And the Eagles
have done a great job of building the offensive defensive lines.
That's that's historically how you win the NFC East down
like line of scrimmage. It's just tough to get four
guys that can do that. You can get an elite
edge rusher and even la the inside guy, but it's tough.

(06:01):
It's tough to get more than two in Philadelphia. Put
together four and if you've got a great defensive line,
you're going to dominate a lot of games. And they
dominated the best quarterback of the game in that game Sunday.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
It's really good.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
They just played this game a couple of days ago
as you recording this, But do you see the Eagles
as being equipped to, you know, to to make a
bit of a run. Here is this window for them
still there? For the for the next couple of years
where they could realistically get back there.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah, the windows still there because Barkley is still under thirty.
The quarterback is still young. But they've got a lot
of guys that are entering free agency and let's see
how many of them they can keep. And they got
a couple of defensive linemen that are in free t
If you lose those guys, you're gonna waken your team.
It's going to be interesting because Washington is going to
get better, you know. They they they pushed her on

(06:53):
that defense pretty good in the in points they scored.
Washington's going to be a factor. Uh, it depends, you know,
how how does Philadelphia maintain the status qual It's tough
because you're drafting late. You're not going to get the
impact players at the end of each round like you
he could, you know, the middle early art of the round.
So I think it's key for them in freecy to

(07:13):
keep as many of those guys as they can if
they want to maintain this run.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
They've got a chance.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
They got a solid core, maybe the best combination of
offense and defensive line football. They got game breaking receivers,
they got one of the two best running backs in
the game. The quarterbacks seems to me emerging. I mean
they hit with Cooper Jujon on the corner last in
the last draft. They that organization knows how to win,

(07:37):
and I think they'll figure out what needs to be
done to win again in twenty twenty five six.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Rick Kisln is our guest on the larr Vie Lapey podcast.
You know, Rick, the thing that jumped down to me
when you look at at organizations in the way, you know,
Howie Roseman now has built what I don't know, three
teams that have gone to the Super Bowl, two of
which you've won in the last I sick half a
dozen years. You know, how do you look at these

(08:04):
front offices? Is that the premieer front office now in
the NFL? Do you think well that you'd have to
say that. I mean what they've done and going out,
you know, trading Frazy Brown and getting the hitting on
their draft picks. I've said, in the salary cap world,
the most important guy in the building is guy and

(08:25):
finds the players, not the guy who coaches with the
guy who finds the players. And Philadelphia has been a
really good drafting team over well since since how he
got on board. For whatever reason, they're able to pinpoint
talent that a lot of teams don't. I think as
long as they draft well, they can keep it going.

(08:45):
You can't afford to have a mess. And you got
to find starters in rounds four through seven. Maybe not
the first year, but in two or three years. These
guys have to play.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
And when I was doing all the draft I always
thought the most important part of the drafts rounds four
through seven. Anybody can have good draft rounds twenty three,
but the guys who draft well four through seven are
the difference makers. And I think the best seven day drafts,
second day drafter in history was Round Wolf. It's amazing
what he did in rounds fourth through seven, you know,

(09:16):
getting the all those quarterback the Mark brunell Is, the
Matt Hasselbacks, the Donald Drivers, getting all those guys late.
That's why the Packers were a great team, you know,
with with both Fireman Rogers, they were hitting on the drafts.
But I think the Eagles are probably the best because
they're drafting well and they really not a manager money.
Go back into the nineties, Joe Banner showed people how

(09:40):
the salary caps should be done. He was signing guys
at the end of their second years at four year concert,
he was re upping guys at the end of their
second year when it was affordable. If you wait till
the end of his third year, the price jumps and
they Eagles had done a good job over the years
of signing guys earlier than they really should be signing them,
and they maintain a good player and an affordable roster.

(10:03):
So this is a franchise that bigging out of the
nineties and have carried it on through the two thousands
and the twenty tens and now the two thousand fives.
They know how to work the gap.

Speaker 5 (10:12):
So Sik's the question with a with a Packers audience
probably making a large percentage of who tunes into to
this podcast, how far away in your opinion are the
Green Bay Packers.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, the most important thing each team faces every year
is you got to win your division, and right now,
Detroit is a tremendous obstacle in Green Bay's wait. This
is the best team that was a record wise, the
best team in the NFC. Last year, they had the
seventh or eighth most money in free agency. This year,
they got multi picks. I mean, Detroit's in a position

(10:48):
to put together a championship caliber team. They're very close
right now, and they got the money in the draft
picks to make it better. I think they're the team
that looms right now. Is the most farmable obstacle in
Fiadelphia's way, and that's the Packers problem. You've got to
win your division first, and it's gonna be very tough
with what Detroit has going to top to top of
the Packers. Now you can win it as wildcard. The Giants,

(11:11):
you know, did it twice. You got to get anything
abason to get in the playoffs. But right now, I
think Detroit's a team to beat in the NFC North,
and I think the Packers have a way to go
to catch them.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
You know, it's interesting, Rick, I felt this year was
the Lion's year, the culmination of all the things they
had done over the previous three years. I thought this
year was their year, and then you had the plethora
of injuries. I mean, really bad situation with injuries, and
have they been healthy? You know, maybe we're talking about

(11:44):
them as one of the great teams over the course
of NFL history. You know what I mean because they
had that kind of talent on the defensive side.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, with all the injuries, the one Hutcheson. If they
don't lose Hutchison, I think they could have been in
the super Bowl.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know that.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
If I were Detroit at the trade deadline, I would
have paid whatever tough to get Max Crosby out of
them right out of the Vegas I'd give him two
ones in Boro and then you got Crosby for this
year with hutchonon next year. Going forward, can you imagine
Crosby and Hutcheson on the edges in the next two
or three years. I thought the trade should have made
him either with Miles Garrett or Max Crosby to get that.

(12:22):
But they're getting, you know, having Smith to go along
Hutchson's nice, but I Crosby and Garrett would have had
something special. I would think they're going to do something
this offseason on the defensive line to make sure that
if the Hutchinson goes down again, they'll be better better
prepared for. But if Hutchton'd stayed healthy, I think they

(12:42):
could have won the NFC and probably and would have
beaten the Cheets.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
I'm jumping around here. With personnel.

Speaker 5 (12:47):
But obviously Aaron Rodgers is back in the news. Not
that he's ever out of it, I guess, but it
sounds like the Jets are moving on. There's a fear
among Packer fans. I think Wayne, you could confer or
deny that he will land in Minneso. What do you think?

Speaker 3 (13:02):
First?

Speaker 4 (13:02):
How much does he have.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
Left in the tank? And they'll throw this out to
both of you, guys, how much does he have left
in the tank? And if you had to guess here
in the middle of February, where does he end up?

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, I think he's I think he's still in elite quarterback.
He's not the quarterback he was when he was twenty five.
I think he knows he needs to go to the
right situation, and I think he'll be a guy that
picks that situation, much like Drew Brees went to New Orleans.
I knew Drew Brees with his armstack, would have to
go to a warm weather climate, and Peyton Manning went
to Denver because Elway told them that the team was

(13:34):
there to win. I mean, he's wherever he goes next,
it'll be a chance to walk a good enough team
with a chance to win. You know, Minnesota seems logical,
But do you sit McCarthy another year? You know, when
I was covering the Chiefs, they drafted Todd Blacklets in
eighty three and had him sit. He took up a
seventh pick of the draft, over John Elway, over Dan Marino.

(13:56):
He sat for over two years, and when he got
finally got in the field, he had rusted out. He
lost all the mechanics. The question do you do you
have McCarthy sit a second year? You invested money in
this kid. I think they almost have to go with him.
If they're going to let Donald go, I think they
almost have to go with McCarthy, and then it's anybody's
guess where Aaron? You know, Pittsburgh possibly, No. The Steelers

(14:20):
are a good team without a court. You know, they've
gone eighteenth straight winning seasons with seventh straight playoff years,
and they're a quarterback away, and when Roethlisberger left again
franchise quarterback, they stop being a super Bowl contender. If
you've got a franchise quarterback, you are a continent. Without one,
you're not. And I think that would be a more
likely place. But I don't know if Pittsburgh's gonna want

(14:43):
to put up with the baggage. I mean, they put
up with Russell Wilson's baggage this year, and I'm not
sure they want to bring in Aaron Rodgers, but I
think that would be a logical. If you want to
just place where he'd be a good fit, I think
Pittsburgh would be that place.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, and I know also that Aaron has a healthy
respect for Mike Tomlin. He he would you know, I
think he'd love to play for Mike Tomlin. I agree
with you, Rick, I don't know if the Steelers will
take on that much baggage, but i'd be out of
character for you know. But Rogers did show to answer
Mint's question. He did show a little bit. I thought
at the end of the season. I thought he showed

(15:17):
he could still play. The Jets situation was just not
a good one. And you know, there's only so much
a guy can do. But he's not the quarterback he
was in Green Bay.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
No, but no, can he still win?

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Probably?

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
If I'm if I'm the Steelers and I'm signing him,
I say, look, Aaron, you got to get off the podcast.
You got to stop making it about you. You got
to you gotta be a team guy. I think that's
wherever he goes, he's got to make that concession that, Okay,
I'm hundred percent football. It's not about anything else but football.
And I think that's and I think he'd do that.

(15:52):
I think he knows his legacy is at stake here.
You know, if he can win another one, that would
be that would be special. I think he's off him quarterback,
whether he wants or not, but I think he's there's
still a drive in him to play and to win,
and it's a matter of him finding the right situation
and the team finding the right situation that will would
make him a good fit.

Speaker 5 (16:12):
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Speaker 3 (16:27):
Our guest is Rick Guys, Little award winning writer and
columnist who has covered the NFL for the better part
of the last fifty years.

Speaker 5 (16:33):
We talk Hall of Fame class? Can we jump to
that here?

Speaker 4 (16:37):
I was just gonna go there.

Speaker 5 (16:39):
Eric Allen Dared Allen, Antonio gags Sterling Sharp. This is
one of the smaller classes, I guess in the last
twenty years or so. But take us through this rick
with these guys obviously all very deserving your thoughts on
the class here in general, Well, they.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Change the process. You know, once upon a time you'd
vote down to the final we vote yes or no
on the finalist, and it's easier. But now a finalist
of the final seven the members of the class had
to get eighty percent of the vote, which means there
are like forty nine people on the committee. You need
forty votes to get in. And I think because of that,

(17:18):
because this rule change here to see smaller and smaller
classes them all forward. Because the four that the three
that got in, I think the other four split the vote.
I think Tory Holt had had a camp and in
the end had a camp.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
I think.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
It's going to be tough. It's going to be very
difficult to have a five and six member class or
a four and five member class because they're not going
to get eight percent of the vote. And I look
at this at the seniors, I was shopped. Homer didn't
get in. I thought Home Run and Sharp were locks.
Because the committee's gotten so much younger, and there's a
recency bias and home there and sharp or guys who've

(17:59):
been around since nineteen eighty. The three guys Maxie Bond,
Jim Tyre, Ralph hay Or all pre nineteen seventy guys.
And there are people on the committee who'd never seen
him play, who didn't know much about him. And I thought,
I thought Maxie Bond should have been a slam dunk.

(18:20):
He went to nine Pro Bowls in ten years. He
was a Pro Bowl as a rookie. He started on
a as a rookie on a team who won an
NFL championship. George Allen called him one of the best linebackers,
the best outside linebacker he's ever seen. I made the
presentation for Bond, and I pointed out that in surveys

(18:41):
conducted by the Hall, Bill Parcells, Don shul and Mike
Dick all put Maxie Bond in the top three of
guys not in. They're asked to give us five players
think going in. I was in the top three, and
for him to get passed over that herbie. But I
think the problem was he needed eighty percent of the vote.
And again I'm shocked Homer and didn't get in. But

(19:04):
I think Mike had to be closed. But I think
Maxie Bond, Jim Tyre, and Ralph Hayes split the vote
among the rest. I think that knocked them all up.
They were probably all finished five to ten votes short.
Because the Boatman's then split. It's going to be tough
to have big class going forward because you need eighty
percent of the vote, and it's going to be very
difficult to get structure. He's gone down.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Rick. We all think of the Baseball Hall of Fame
and the process there, and baseball is such a game
based on numbers three hundred wins or whatever it is,
X number of home runs, all this other stuff. Football
is a little more subjective in terms of the selection,
is it not.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
It should be, but we've gone to this analytic bent
where you want to judge guys on their stats and
you can't the guys who played in the seventies, the receivers,
it was a different game trying to catch it past
the seventies than it was an in the two thousands.
I mean, they've stripped defenses of the ability to play defense.

(20:06):
They've they've taken away the hitt and get taken away
the content receivers. You get a free run. You beat
the defensive back off the line, you got a free run.
It can't touch you. So it's to become a game
of pitch and catch. All these passing numbers and receiving
numbers are inflated. And you know the big argument on
Eli Manning, he's top ten all time passing yards, you know, touchdowns.

(20:29):
But it's a different game, bart Stowers playing a different
game than what Eli Manning was. I didn't think Manning
would be in in the first ballot because I gotta
I think I got a higher stand. I think there
are maybe fifteen to twenty first ballot Hall.

Speaker 5 (20:44):
Of famers in history.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Now we see to be letting everybody in first ballot
of late, but I think if you know Jim Brown, Unitas,
Lawrence Taylor, Jerry Rice, Deacon Jones, those are first ballot
Hall of famers. Those guys put out the description for
all the positions should be played, and to put guys

(21:06):
in because of their statistics. And if you look at
this class, every one of the guys had a statistic.
Sharp of course, I think was the first receiver with
two two hundred yard or a hundred catch seasons. Jared
Allen top ten all time in sacks. Mister Wilson is

(21:27):
in the class Eric Allen fifty four interceptions. Everybody has
a stat. The class is going in now. They have
a stat. Offensive linement don't have a stat, so sometimes
sometimes they slide. You know, Marshall Leander went to six
Pro Bowls All decade, but I thought one of the
cleanest resumes I'd ever seen was Will Shields. He went

(21:49):
to eleven Pull Bowls in twelve years. He was All decade.
It took him four years to get him. Why because
he was an offensive lineman. He didn't have the stat.
Darren Woodson didn't make it this year. I think Darren
Woodson is a Hall of Fame player. I think he
got shorted on the All Decade team. They put ronniey
Lott on the All Decade and no question, Ronnie law
was an All Decade player in the eighties, but he

(22:11):
was not in the nineties. He got Darren Woodson spot.
Darren Woodson doesn't have a stat. He doesn't have fifty interceptions,
he doesn't have forty sacks, and that's working against him.
The other thing I'll make the point I'll make when
I talk about All Decade seventy five percent of every
player in can made an All Decade team. If you

(22:33):
didn't make an All Decade team and you didn't win
a championship, you are a long shot at best to
get in. Butler was all decade, won a championship. It's
easier for him to progress than it is for Darren Woodson,
who won three Super Bowls but wasn't all decade. It's
just it's tough for if you're a defensive player, especially,

(22:55):
it's tough to get in. It's still almost two to
one offensive players defensive players in the Hall. But you
to get in now you almost need a stat because
the whole thing is become stat run steat generated. And
I think that's wrong. And I've always been an eye test.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Gush kind of a guy.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
I know what a Hall of Famer looks like. I
thought Sterling Sharp and it went on from eighty eight
to ninety one was as good as Jerry Rice. They
were one A and one B. And there are a
couple of seasons or Sharp was one A and Rice
was one B. That he I could see the greatness
in Sharp despite the shorter career. It's only surprising that

(23:32):
he went into the senior pool. But the reason he's
in is because we've now changed I guess our outlook
at short careers. We put Kenny Easily in was a
short career guy. Then Terrell Bay was a short career
Kurt Warren was a bit of a short career guy.
Tony Boselli's short career guy Sterling Sharp. We're letting in

(23:54):
guys with shorter careers now went in the past they
would never do.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
That was was Schef obviously made it, and you mentioned
the short window. Was there any were there were concerns
with any of the voters because it was a shorter career,
because he wasn't media friendly here, all this stuff was
that was that talked about at all in the midst
of coming up with the four not wrong. Didn't think

(24:19):
I didn't think so that was didn't think so the.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Guy he was on the same step, same plateaus, Jerry Riights. No.
I think we've been waiting a long time for Surep
to get to the process. I thought he'd be a
fairly easy guy to get in once he got in,
and clearly if there was any pushback, he got at
least forty of the forty nine votes, So there wasn't
a whole lot of pushback during the discussion, and he

(24:42):
went out on skates.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
You know, when you look at coaches, Rick, so much
of it is about longevity. But how much of a
prerequisite is it for a head coach to win at
least one and probably two World Championships before there really
considered you look at it.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Shanahan, Coughlin, Seaffert have all won two and they haven't
been discussed yet. You know, Mike won one and went
to another. Winning is is crucial, uh for a coach.
You know, if you win like next year, belichicks out,
he'll be He'll be a slam dunk. You know, you

(25:25):
win that many Super Bowls. Winning percentage is nice, But
the more rings you have, the better your chance you Mike,
Mike has the one ring and he had he jumped
the Q one Shanahan, Seaffert in Coughlin, I'm I'm not
sure if the committee, I'm not on the on the
contributor coach committee, I'm not sure if you bring Mike

(25:46):
back a second year in a row, or if you
give somebody else a chance. You know, I'm on the
senior committee. And as much as I thought Barne was
a Hall of Famer. I've got a list of one
hundred players that I think need to be discussed as seniors.
And you can't just keep bringing one guy back year
after year because that's slighting the other ninety nine that

(26:06):
had been waiting years and years and years for their chance.
So there's a couple of Packers. Ron Kramer and Boy
Dollar were picked to the fiftieth anniversary team. They've never
been discussed. I think both Ron Kramer and Boy Dollar
deserve a discussion at some point. Will they get one.
I don't know. It's they're long shot and out, but
I think at some point, if you made the if

(26:29):
you were picked as the best tight end in one
of the best two receivers on the All half century team,
you deserved discussed and they weren't. So there's some flaw
in a process. A lot of guys have sub through
the cracks. Every franchise has i'd say two to four
guys they think has been shortened by this process. There
are thirty there or twenty six established teams, but that's

(26:50):
eighty guys right there that need to be discussed and
may never get discussed. So Mike, I think Mike was close.
I think Mike is worthy of bringing back, but it's
gonna be tough to jump over Shanny and Coughlin and
see if you haven't had their their day yet.

Speaker 5 (27:07):
Yeah, every sport deals with that. I just think, you know,
Jerry Kramer got in a few years ago, but it
was it took forever, right, Sometimes being a great team
almost works against you, like, well, we got this guy,
this guy, this guy.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (27:21):
I'm not in the room there, but I always wonder that,
no matter the sport, if you already have five or
six and your and your great teams who get in,
you could be perfectly deserving. But I well, how many
guys are we going to put in for are young?

Speaker 1 (27:35):
There's that, And I think that's working against ELC Greenwio
at Pittsburgh and here's a guy who won six Pro Bowls,
he's one of, you know, one of the top players,
and that that steel curtain defense. And I think there's
Pittsford fatigue there, and I think it was packer fatigue
for Kramer.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
It took him.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
You know, the senior I made to commit the presentation
for Jerry, and I pointed out that for twenty years
we didn't put any guards in. I mean, Upshot was
only guard we pulled in. And so it wasn't just
Kramler was being slight it was all guards who were
being slighted. And I think I thought. I thought Jerry
Kramer when I got on the Senior committee in two

(28:12):
thousand and four, I thought Jerry Kramer was the guy
most deserving in the senior pool that need to be in.
He was the best player in the senior pool in
Mountain Hall of Fame. And then when he got in,
I thought Johnny Robinson was the best player in senior pool.
Then he got in. Ay, right now, I think Maxie
Baughn is that guy, and I'm not sure he'll ever
get in.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
M Rick Guyslin, pro Football Hall of Fame writer is
our guest on the Leevie Lapey podcast. Rick, when you
look at the the NFL game today and you're one
of the guys that has been the watch watchman over
officiating in this game, and you and I have had
this discussion before. The rule book is way too big.

(28:52):
It's very hard to arbitrate an NFL game. We just
seem to have too many rules. Yet it's still hasn't
bogged down the popularity of pro football. But bring us
up to day. Where's your thinking on officiating in the
NFL today?

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I think they're twoty flags. And I think the problem
is that the officials are great each week in the
NFL by the Officiant Committee, and you're great at based
on how you perform that game. And I think when
in doubt in the minds of the officials, throw the flag,
don't get cited for missing a call. I think that's

(29:33):
led to more flags. I think the officials right now
are officiating more to the league office than the art
to the game on the field. I suggested a couple
of years back what they are to do is at
the end of each year, end of each regular season,
have the thirty two head coaches vote on which carew

(29:53):
should advance. I think you'd get the best referees and
the best cruise that way, and I think it would
also foster a better relationship on field relationship between the
officiating crews and the head coaches, because right now the
officials answered to New York, not to the game on

(30:14):
the field. If you let the thirty two head coaches,
they would pick the best crews. The best referees. The
problem I had this year is at three two of
the top crews had called the most their referee, coach
or officiated title games, and the guy who finished fourth

(30:34):
penalties did the Super Bowl. So you're telling the officials
we are rewarding the high penalty referees, the high penalty crews.
I don't want more flags. The less flags, in my opinion,
the better the game. Let the guys on the field
decide it. There are way too many calls. And the
other problem I've got is these all star crews are

(30:55):
putting together for these games, these guys that never worked together.
You know, I want to that that everybody and a
crew knows the strength and weaknesses of that crew. I
go back to the Buffalo kans City game Josh Allen
fork down. One referee comes running if the sideline marking
almost a yard short and the other referees marking them

(31:16):
almost a yard ahead. I think there'd be eye contact
if these guys had worked together in the past. But
these guys had never worked together. I just think that
the referee to the officiating is is the biggest problem
I've got win the game today. There's there are too
many penalties and this all star crew thing I would
that'd be out the door in second if I was
calling shots.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Was this I see that on your website.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Is the most penalties called?

Speaker 5 (31:37):
So so five?

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Ye have to see yep again they're too many flives
they are officiating or to try to get the good
grades in New York and not to make it a
better game. And the other thing i'd do if I
was running the show, I'd make these guys be full
time officials. You know these guys, this is a part
time job. They're making big money for a part time job.

(31:58):
What I would do, I would base the officials either
in scarwboord downs and I'd have them do the game
on Sunday, fly home, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. I'd
have all the crews in an auditorium going through all
the calls and get some kind of continuity. This is
what passed interferences. This is where offensive holding is because

(32:20):
right now these crews never discuss what's going on. Some
cruise call offensive holding, some cruise call defensive fastest afference,
some cruise call offensive fasting afference. There's no continuity. If
you got all these guys in a room together, and
they watched all the calls. They maybe have a better
idea of what a penalty is. So they Monday through
Thursday or Tuesday through Thursday, they're watching film off Friday,

(32:44):
fly Saturday, do the game Sunday, fly back Monday, Tuesday
through Thursday, and just get them all together and let
them discuss. Let them discuss with themselves why penalties are called.
What did you see that? The nahou call that? But
these crews never get together discuss that, and you never know.
And that's the big problem coaches. Yet, you never know

(33:07):
one week to the next what you're getting. If you're
getting a guy who calls holding on every third pass
play or a guy that calls offensive pass interferance, they
never know what game they're getting one week to the next.
And I think that's wrong. I think again, I love
a game with their four penn leaves for fifty twelve yarns.

(33:27):
I'm tired of the twenty penn leaves for hundred and
ninety yard games.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Just how about replay, Rick, where do you stand on that?
What kind of impact has that made over the years
and what you've seen.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
I've never been a fan of replay in any sport.
I think human error belongs in the game. You make
human errors on offense, on defense, and I think it
slows the game down. And it appears that a lot
of times they don't get the call right. Anyway, for
whatever reason, there'll be a play or two that could

(34:01):
turn the game around. When I think buying large the
stoppages it's not worth it. And some of the petty
petty calls, well, ball spots on a second quarter of
a game, and what are we doing? What are you
doing again? I've ever been I've never been a fan
of replaying. So I like the human error aspect of
it because the players make mistakes, the coaches make mistakes,

(34:22):
any officials make mistakes. That's all part of the game.

Speaker 5 (34:25):
So you just answered my next question because there's the
talk now, and maybe it's just talk about the whole
spotting of the football some kind of whatever. It is
a chip of device where you're not just eyeballing it
with the chain gang there, you're.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
Good with it as is right now?

Speaker 1 (34:41):
I take it, well, no, because that's not efficient call.
It's like tennis. You know, you're not asking the line
judge to make the call. If they could do that,
I've you all for that because that would knock out
about five or six different challenges in times where you
got to try it out with the change the chains.
What are we doing it's just in the nineteen fifties anymore. Now.

(35:03):
If they could find a way to accurately spot the
ball in the first down mark, I think I'm all
for that because that would take that would take Dapertari
call out of the hands of the referees, and I
think anything you can take off the referees plate, we'll
make for a better game.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Well, I've said this many of the times on the air. Uh,
spotting of the football is not a science. It's munching ard.
I remember remember the index card?

Speaker 4 (35:29):
What do we do? Barriers or series?

Speaker 3 (35:31):
Is this league?

Speaker 4 (35:33):
This is what we do?

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Oh my gosh, No, you're right, And you know the
the one thing that would have been I think back
to the Kansas City Buffalo game this January. You know
where Josh Allen Is he over the line? Is he not?
It's a crucial fourth down play that swings the game.
You know. I guess if you have the camera capability

(35:57):
spotting the ball like that would be But I don't
know if it wouldn't solve all instances, I don't think,
and we'd still be debating I think a little bit.
But uh that that just is the thing that comes
to mind. Could they have corrected that? Did he get
over the line? Was their video evidence? It suggested that
he was over the line to gain for a first

(36:18):
down in that crucial moment of the AFC title game.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
After after the last week's game, a lot of people
wish Buffalo had that down the first though.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
I'm playing with Super Bowl Oh my gosh, yeah, hey, listen,
are we ever going to see a three peat winner? Oh?
That's tough.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's tough to do because of the way the game
is structured with the salary cap. The more you win,
the more players you lose, the lower you draft. It's
it's tough.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
You know it won.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
The Packers won three in a row back in the
you know, the first Super Bowl. You know they were
they were running out of gas. I think that's one
of the reasons the party left. All those players had
gotten old, and then that they won the last one
on fields and I think that's one of the reasons
been left. It's so tough. It is so tough because
now you got twenty or thirty one teams. They're all
pointed you, and they're all draft and higher, and they

(37:09):
all got more money. And then you look at the Eagles.
They're gonna lose your offensive coordinator. You know, you lose,
You lose coaches when you win Detroit, Detroit has a
great year, a loser two coordinates. It's it's tough because
you lose continuity. The more you win, the more continuity
it gets disrupted. Coaching personnel. You know, the salary cap,

(37:31):
three guys leaving free agency, you know, it's tough.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
It's tough.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
I think two in a row is probably unless you
got Tom Brady. And Tom Brady went ten consecutive years
without winning a Super Bowl. As great a quarterback as
he was, he went ten straight years without winning. So
even even if Tom Brady couldn't So I don't know
that any I don't think we're going to see another
three peat.

Speaker 4 (37:55):
Where we let you go.

Speaker 5 (37:55):
I see the Michigan State banner behind you, So you
obviously still have college feelings.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Well where you got what's out?

Speaker 5 (38:02):
We're the same area right now. Wis Consin's kind of
scuffling too.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
What do you got on Sparty moving forward.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Here I was. I was on Camus last week. I saw,
I went back. I saw two hockey games and a
basketball game. Hockey hockey. Hockey's pretty good. They're number two
in country. They beat Michigan six to one in Detroit,
and then on earlier in day I once saw the
Oregon game. Oregon's up by fourteen and a half and

(38:29):
they mose by twelve. Oregon hit ten threes in the
first half, none in the second half. They got all
scored fifty to twenty four in the second half. Both
the basketball and hockeyam Saprika.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah they are, Yes, they are footballball team. Not solid.

Speaker 5 (38:43):
Yeah, another topic for another day.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
I got you, I got you. You never know, Rick.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
I mean, with all this nil stuff in the portal
and all that other stuff we're talking about. I was
watching the North Carolina game line and they're talking about
how Hubert David's finally admitted North Carolina's way of winning
no longer works. We need a general manager, we need
a scouting staff, we need a.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Cap out of it.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Just like wow, See, I think I'm not a fan
of what's going on, you know, college basketball football, because
I think they're rich, are gonna get richer and the
poor are gonna get poorer. You look at Marshall, Marshall
has a nice year and they get a bowl. They
lose to what twenty six players in the portal way
after the seasons, they can't go to the bowl game
because they lost all their players. Texas, I think finished

(39:30):
six and six, went to a was invited to a
ball They lost their quarterback, wide receiver, left hack, a
ledge rusher, and linebacker. And you're not the lesser teams
are going to lose all their players and they're all
going to go to the Oregons. They're probably six to
ten upper class teams and everybody else is in the

(39:52):
middle class. My school's in middle class. I think Wisconsin,
iowand at Rasca their middles class schools. They're not gonna
be able to compete with Mission, Ohio State, Oregon with
the Nike money, and even Penn State is on is
kind of on the edge of that. But I think
they're rich. You're gonna get richer and the po're gonna
get poor, and it's gonna hurt the game games.

Speaker 5 (40:12):
Yeah, I think a lot of people think the same thing.
Then there's some kind of a model out there that,
you know, NFL light, you know, to try to create
something that resembles competitive balance. You'll never truly have it.
But it's too much like MLB right now.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Where Yeah, I think in the end you're gonna have
You're gonna have the Big ten, the SEC. Then everybody
else is going to be in another conference and they're
gonna buy it for one or two spots in the
playoff and the Big ten is gonna get five and
the SEC is five, and it's the power is going
to be all in the Big ten, which is good
for us and the SEC, but it's not it's not
good for for our schools. I mean, it's gonna be

(40:46):
Son and Cal will get back Oregon, Ohio State, Michigan,
Penn State. That's that's your your upper group and rest
you're trying to trying to catch up, and it's gonna
be very difficult with the portal in n i OL money.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Yeah, well, hey, Rick, you'll just have to contribute more
too that Michigan State's party fund, you know, come on,
step it up.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Hell, heycross of those tickets over the weekend. I gave
my contribution.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
All the days we read it is a scud, Hey, Rick,
Thank you so much for taking time out with us.
It's just always great to talk with you and catch up.
It's just great. Thank you for taking time.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Always my pleasure. Guys appreciate it. Thanks very appreciate it.
Take care of.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Well.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Wayne.

Speaker 5 (41:30):
We talked about you did the Chief's ability to win
these close games time after time after time with Patrick
Mahomes and his cast of characters. Just well, we wasn't
a close game. It was an absolute blowout. Where were
you as surprised as many that the that the Eagles
were able I know, you know Rick Tuck touched on
a little bit, But were you surprised as many that

(41:52):
the Eagles were able to get pressure without bothering the
blitz they could get home with four over and over again.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah. Many. I was surprised from the standpoint of I
didn't realize how acute the Kansas City offensive line problems were.
With the injury that tackle. They moved Joe Tooney as
we talked about, out to tackle. He's an All Pro
guard and they really struggled, you know time. It was
reministion of what three or four years ago when they

(42:21):
played Tampa after the twenty twenty season in the Super
Bowl and got blown out of their offensive lineman was
destroyed by that Tampa front very similar, eerily similar to
what happened against the Eagles on Sunday. I was a
little surprised in that regard, But you know what was interesting,
Matt and I think we don't see these things in

(42:42):
the regular season, but Kansas City obviously had some wards
in their winning games. And everyone's saying, well, look at
the point differential, this, that and the other thing, and
all of us are saying, yeah, but it's Mahomes magic,
and the Chiefs defense will keep it close and Mahomes
will win the game of the end. Well, what you
saw in the Super Bowl, and sometimes it takes the
bright of lights to expose the different chinks in the armor.

(43:04):
Here's Kampas City team. Okay, we just talked about the
offensive line issues, all right, But aside from that, they
had one playmaker, a wide receiver. He's a rookie. The
Worthy kid had a nice Super Bowl and caught us
some passes in junk time and made a touchdown catch.
That's all great, but that's all they had. Their running
game nothing special, their receivers nothing special. They're tight ends.

(43:26):
Travis Kelcey. I think a lot of us have seen
over the course of the year. If he's not at
the end, he's real close to it, you know what
I mean. He's not the factor he used to be.
And then you've got Patrick Mahomes. He's still Mahomes, but
under duress without these other components around him. I think
the Chiefs are exposed. There's no doubt about that. And
everybody who was concerned about the Chiefs winning close games

(43:47):
and a lot of us were saying, well, they just
know how to win. I think what we saw in
the Super Bowl were the reasons why they were in
so many close games.

Speaker 5 (43:55):
A good story for the Eagles, you know, had ten
and one start last year and then everything went sideways
and you're wondering and Nick Sirianni is working with fans
and all of that, and in the end he's smoking
cigars and hoisting up a trophy and a very deserving
Super Bowl champion. So my question for you, with the
draft in Green Bay being too much in change away,
do you.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
Take a break, do you exhale?

Speaker 5 (44:16):
Or when is Wayne Larvi start his deep dive getting
all the intel on the draftable players.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
This April I'm.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Gonna wait till I get my basketball stuff done, and
I've got a couple of big ten games I need
to talk to you about. But I'm gonna wait for
that a little bit, and I'm gonna start putting things
together as we start here early on. But the combine
is coming up in late February, and so I'll pay
attention a little bit to that and start getting an

(44:45):
idea of who might be available and all that. The
Draft in Green Bay is gonna be. Wow, that's gonna
be unique, Matt to see it in the way they
set it up a Green Bay and everything around lambeau
Field and all that. I think it's going to be
incredible for the state of Wisconsin. It really is in
a great showcase for the Packers and obviously the NFL.

(45:07):
What is going to be interesting I'm looking forward to
most is free agency, and I think there are going
to be some opportunities for the Packers to add to
their football team. And I think they're in a unique
position in a couple of ways if they want.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
To go this way.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
All right, there are two difference makers who might be
available for trade on the defensive line, you know, Miles
Garrett in Cleveland, Max Crosby in Las Vegas. You get
one of those two guys in the Packers defensive line,
Matt It changes everything. It changes everything. So if they
could do that, now that's a long shot. How are

(45:43):
you going to make the right package and that and
the other thing. And people say, well, the Packers will
never give up a couple of first rund draft choices.
But you know what, they've been the youngest team in
the NFL the last two years. They've had good drafts
the last couple of years. Maybe now is the time
you say, Okay, we can afford to give up a
draft pick here. The other thing is free agency. You know,

(46:03):
maybe they have more money, they have more resources from
a free agent standpoint now. And here's the other factor
in they're in a window here. You and I have
talked about it. I've explained to you my three year
window for the Packers. Year three coming up. They are
exactly where I thought they'd be. Everybody got distorted when
they made that playoff run a year ago. Everything got distorted.

(46:27):
I understand people's expectations change, but the Packers are right
where they should be in this process. Now, it's can
they add the couple of pieces that take them to
the next level. And if those pieces are they the
right pieces that come available, and that's what Goodakoots and
his staff will go over. But defensive line get a
difference maker. There need a cover corner, no doubt about it.

(46:51):
Probably need a receiver who can become a number one receiver.
Do you have that guy in your stable? I maintain
they do. His name is Christian Watson. He has the
three a's. There's ability which he has, Accountability which he has,
is a great kid. Availability, the greatest of the three
a's he has not had, and he's going to be

(47:14):
compromised this year coming off of devastating a knee injury
late in the season. So maybe the Packers have to
go outside to the organization to get that number one receiver,
at least for a time being.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
In a division that you figure.

Speaker 5 (47:27):
We've talked about the Detroit Lions. We don't think they're
going away. The Minnesota Vikings obviously have a really good year,
flamed out early, we know, but the division looks like
it could be really good once again. The Bears, who knows,
until proven otherwise, probably not all that close yet, but
we'll see.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
And in the NFC.

Speaker 5 (47:46):
The Eagles probably aren't going away. The Washington Commanders look
like they're going to be around here for a little bit,
so it'll be fun. He'll be here soon soon before
you know it, you say, get here again, before you know.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
It's interesting that it's unfortunate for Detroit because they had
the roster if they were anywhere healthy on defense, they
had the roster to win it all they really did.
It was their year, and the coordinators were all in place,
everything and all that. I understand the Lions are going
to be formidable. They're going to have great talent coming
back to health and all that, and they do have

(48:20):
resources and everything else. I just wonder, though, when you
know it's your year and it was their year and
you miss it, it's not as easy to put it
back together again. And boy, I just go back to
the twenty eleven Green Bay Packers, the most the deepest
team I've ever been around. From a standpoint of the Packers,

(48:43):
the twenty six years I've done the Packers, that was
their deepest team. They won the Super Bowl. They had
a bunch of injuries in twenty ten, it won the
Super Bowl. Everybody back healthy, deepest team and yet it
just didn't happen. So there's no guarantee. You know, you
missed that window. They took advantage, they won their Super Bowl,
but that next year when they should have won another
one or had the talent to do so, unable to

(49:05):
get it done. There's something about boy, if you don't
do it in your window. I mean, that's the forty
nine ers this past year. You know, two years ago
that was their year to win the championship and they
got beat by Mahomes in overtime in the Super Bowl.
And look what happened this past year. So there are
no givens. You know, the problem is, is Jared Goff

(49:26):
going to be as good as he's been again? I suppose,
I guess, but he's not a machine. He's flash in blood.
I mean, you know, will Hutchison be the same player
when he comes back from that injury? Will they be
able to you know, will the guys that are coming
back from injury be as good as they were before
they were injured. That's those are big question marks. And

(49:46):
we just take for granted, Okay, this guy's the first team,
first team Pro Bowl or whatever, that he's going to
be the same. The next year. That's not the case.
And you and I know this. Back of the teams
we've covered, especially on the pro level, you know, putting
back to back career years together ain't easy on any
level in any sport.

Speaker 5 (50:07):
Yeah, you need every you need great management, great personnel,
great coaching, and luck.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
You have to have all of that.

Speaker 5 (50:15):
I've seen it at the college level that was constant,
some teams that were close to his talented as most,
if not all, in basketball or football, and it comes
down to a couple of things, a key injury and
off night, the crazy bounce. I mean, it's just you know,
the twenty eleven Wisconsint football team lost on a hail
mary and next to a hail mary the following week.

(50:38):
Otherwise you know they might be playing for the national championship.
Who knows.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
But it's just that's all.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
That's all that goes into this.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
And that's what makes it. That's why we watch.

Speaker 5 (50:48):
Because you just you don't know. As soon as you
think you have it figured out, something crazy happens. But
enjoyed it. It was good, good to catch up with Rick.
No special teams rankings from him. For those who were wondering,
He's fine. Stepped away from that after a lot of
years of doing it and doing it really well.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
And there are a lot of coaches across the league
who are glad he did definitive rankings. They were definitive
and they were not subjective like so many of these
ratings are as somebody. You know, we talk about Pro
Football Focus, which I love and in his great tool
for us in analyzing games and players. But you know,

(51:27):
there was no this was as hardcore a rankings of
special teams. It's based on all these categories where you
rank and that's your grade. And you know, I know
some coaches loved it, some coaches did not so much.
But you know, it was the definitive for many years,
and it was a system put together by Rick and

(51:49):
the legendary Frank Gans, one of the great special teams
coaches of the seventies and eighties and nineties. He really
was something else. Anyway, that'll do it for us. On
the Larva Lapay Podcast, Yes special thanks to our guest
Rick Goislin NFL Hall of Famer. Our engineer producer is
Dave McCann. Our executive producer is Jeff Tyler. For math,
this is Wayne, Thank you very much for listening to

(52:10):
the Lerreovie La Pey podcast.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
The Lreavi La Pay podcast is a production of iHeartRadio
podcasts with hosts Way Laravy and Matt Lapey, with production
engineering by Dave McCann. The Lerovian La pay podcast is
presented by UW Credit Union. Here for every you listen to.
Other episodes available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.