June 18, 2023 • 9 mins
Retired San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Deputy Peter Headley worked as an investigator with the department’s Crimes Against Children Unit. He was closely involved in the ongoing case of ‘Lisa’, the girl who was abducted, abused, and victimized by Terry Rasmussen. In the previous episode, #503, Headley gives an overview of Rasmussen’s killing spree across the country, including Southern California. In this bonus episode, Headley talks about forensic science, genealogy, and groundbreaking advancements in DNA that helped to not only identify victims but get some answers to questions asked long ago.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:13):
On any given day in southern California, hundreds of investigators are working more than
ten thousand unsolved cases. That's thousandsof friends and families who have lost loved
ones, thousands of people who gotaway with a crime, and thousands of
murderers who still walk the streets.Killers who may be your neighbor, go
to your church, or could bedating a close friend. This is unsolved
(00:38):
with Steve Gregory. Okay, nowwe're getting to sit down with Pete Headley
from the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department. He's retired from the Crimes against Children's
Unit. Been there, he wasthere, she said, four decades,
(00:58):
right, you were there forty years. On the radio show you you did
this really amazing job of breaking downthe case of this guy that was known
from birth as Terry Rasmussen, butwe learned that he was a Curtis Kimball
and Bob Evans. How many aliasesdo you think this guy had? We're
not sure how many total, becausewe don't guess victims. If you had
(01:21):
to guess, probably once he tooka show on the road full time,
you know, about nineteen eighty.I figure every three years he changed his
name again and then he was finallycaught in two thousand and two. Right,
Yeah, using Larry Vanner for unsonJune's murder. Larry Vanner, Right,
(01:42):
Okay, so um, but youknow what's interesting about all this too,
is that you've been bringing up duringthe radio show. You were bringing
up the genealogy and the you know, the geneological DNA. So tell me
how all that worked, because you'reyou picked it up in twenty twelve.
Of the science and all the activitywas there, but you know, we're
(02:02):
going back to the eighties when DNAwas just starting to become a thing,
So talk about all the science behindthat. Yeah. Law enforcement databases is
quotas, which is a very basicprofile of DNA, and it lets you
do a direct comparison or immediate familymember only with the SNIP profile that the
(02:23):
different DNA sites use from twenty threea family tree DNA. It's more information
and it lets you see extended familyout to fourth fifth cousins, and that's
where we're using to be able toidentify people, whether they're a DOE or
suspect. There's only two databases thatlet law enforcement access it, and that's
(02:47):
Family Tree DNA and JED match.So if you're on Ancestry twenty three am,
etc. Please I plead to everyonetransfer your day to family Tree,
DNA and JED match. It's avery minimal charge for FT DNA to transfer
in and then opt in for lawenforcement matching. So but now critics say,
(03:10):
Pete that you know that's just moreintrusion on someone's personal life. How
do you assure someone that that informationis not going to be used for nefarious
purposes. With a snip profile,it's just showing us how you're related to
other people, And people say,oh, I don't want law enforcement poking
around in my DNA. Also wecan see is what you can see how
(03:32):
you're related to other people in thesite. That's it. There's no medical
information, none of that. Wedon't have access to any of that.
But I mean, in some way, though, aren't you asking someone to
voluntarily give their information on the outsidechance it could help increminate a relative that
may be it? Yeah, andI know some people are against that,
(03:54):
but personally, if one of myrelatives was out raping and murdering, please
use my DNA to catch them.On the other hand, though, it
could also help you find lost relatives. Absolutely, the genetic genealogists that we're
using this for the adoptees laid thegroundwork, so it's just building off of
what they've done already, and theysay, oh, there's all kinds of
(04:18):
rude surprises that can come up.Well, the adoptees when you're identifying them,
they have the same thing happening.There's affairs in the family that turns
out their fathers not their father.So it's nothing new there. And I've
run into that on cases where howis this person related to the family line
(04:41):
on tracking down and it turns outher grandmother had an affair and her father
was a result of that affair,and those can be very delicate conversations,
and so it's it's still there foradoptees. It's been there. It's nothing
new. And another thing that cameout of this case amazing technology With the
(05:08):
Barbrook victims, their DNA was verydegraded, a lot of back refreshing everyone
who those victims are, okay,they were victims of Terry Brasmus and there
were murdered back in New Hampshire andthe bear Brook State Park and dumped in
barrels so they weren't found for years. Right, that's the woman and the
children that were found in the barrelsand his bio child, and the DNA
(05:30):
was very degraded, a lot ofbacterial overgrowth. And Professor Green from UC
Santa Cruz had been working on DNAand Barbara Reinventer, the Tonight Genealogists saw
what he was doing and we contactedhim and said, hey, this is
what's going on. What do youthink And within a year he had it
(05:53):
he can get a DNA profile froma single strand of rootless hair, and
that's how they DNA on the Berrebertvictims for the SNIP profile. And he's
been doing he has his own labnow, Astery Labs, and he's been
doing cases for law enforcement and FBI. After we identified him, I had
(06:16):
a call from Steve Kramer, thatat the time was working out at Elliott
La FBI office and asking me aboutthe LESA case. So I briefed him
on it and I was like,this is amazing. If you're dead ended,
you still got a shot at itnow, and told him if you've
got something you're working on, you'vegot to talk to Barbara Venner. I
couldn't have done it without her tobuild the family trees at all. And
(06:42):
he did. And the team thatwas working on the Golden State Killer brought
Barbara in and she's the one thatidentified the Golden State Killer. You know,
once I publicly announced that that wasIgG investigative genetic genealogy, it's just
exploded. Now it's grown a crossthe country. Everybody's using it. And
again, I know there's an asayersaying it's a privacy issue, but I
(07:08):
just don't see where they're going withit, because again I can't see your
medical information or anything else, justhow you're related to other people. I
think it just goes back to peoplewho don't trust the government. Yeah,
and really is what it boils downto. But so when you go back,
you think about the Golden State Killercase and how far back that goes
(07:29):
also, Oh yeah, and youknow they were able to do this,
you know the science. So nowthe professor Green, was he working in
like investigative forensics. Was he inthat field? No? No, he
was working on dinosaur DNA, youknow, ancient DNA, and then he'd
started working with hair. So thebarrels and when the woman and the three
(07:53):
children found in the barrels. Werethe barrels buried, No, they were
on they were film. Um,some of the lids had popped open a
little bit water had gotten in,so you know, and then the barrels
had tipped over. And it wasin a park, right, you said,
yeah, it's out in a foreston a forest. And so then
that then that had been degraded overthe time. And this guy was able
(08:18):
to figure that out. Huh.Yeah, it took him a year or
though, you said, right,Yeah, and he's got it dialed in
now and from one hair, andhe's helped on a lot of cases.
Now he has his own lab.Wow. So this one case you stumbled
on back in twenty twelve become thebasis of science that's being used all around
(08:41):
the country now that it's exploding everywhere. Yeah, maybe there's gonna be closure
for more and more people. Ohyeah, and that's what it's about.
It's for the victims. Give themclosure, the victims. Families. Um,
Marlesa's family, the woman in thebarrel, and you know, they
they've been wondering for years and yearstrying to find her, their sister and
(09:01):
find out what happened to her.Is that everything? Yeah, do we
cover everything? Okay? Good,doesn't make sure? Okay, well then
Pete, thanks for thanks for allof the history lesson too. I mean,
this is all fascinating stuff, andthis is this is the wave of
the future for policing. I thinkfor absolutely, I think it is this
family, the familial DNA, andI think this is all the future of
(09:24):
policing and I appreciate you bringing itto our attention. Okay, thank you.
On any given day in southern California, hundreds of investigators are working more than
ten thousand unsolved cases. That's thousandsof friends and families who have lost loved
ones, thousands of people who gotaway with a crime, and thousands of
murderers who still walk the streets.Killers who may be your neighbor, go
to your church, or could bedating a close friend. This is unsolved
(00:38):
with Steve Gregory. Okay, nowwe're getting to sit down with Pete Headley
from the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department. He's retired from the Crimes against Children's
Unit. Been there, he wasthere, she said, four decades,
(00:58):
right, you were there forty years. On the radio show you you did
this really amazing job of breaking downthe case of this guy that was known
from birth as Terry Rasmussen, butwe learned that he was a Curtis Kimball
and Bob Evans. How many aliasesdo you think this guy had? We're
not sure how many total, becausewe don't guess victims. If you had
(01:21):
to guess, probably once he tooka show on the road full time,
you know, about nineteen eighty.I figure every three years he changed his
name again and then he was finallycaught in two thousand and two. Right,
Yeah, using Larry Vanner for unsonJune's murder. Larry Vanner, Right,
(01:42):
Okay, so um, but youknow what's interesting about all this too,
is that you've been bringing up duringthe radio show. You were bringing
up the genealogy and the you know, the geneological DNA. So tell me
how all that worked, because you'reyou picked it up in twenty twelve.
Of the science and all the activitywas there, but you know, we're
(02:02):
going back to the eighties when DNAwas just starting to become a thing,
So talk about all the science behindthat. Yeah. Law enforcement databases is
quotas, which is a very basicprofile of DNA, and it lets you
do a direct comparison or immediate familymember only with the SNIP profile that the
(02:23):
different DNA sites use from twenty threea family tree DNA. It's more information
and it lets you see extended familyout to fourth fifth cousins, and that's
where we're using to be able toidentify people, whether they're a DOE or
suspect. There's only two databases thatlet law enforcement access it, and that's
(02:47):
Family Tree DNA and JED match.So if you're on Ancestry twenty three am,
etc. Please I plead to everyonetransfer your day to family Tree,
DNA and JED match. It's avery minimal charge for FT DNA to transfer
in and then opt in for lawenforcement matching. So but now critics say,
(03:10):
Pete that you know that's just moreintrusion on someone's personal life. How
do you assure someone that that informationis not going to be used for nefarious
purposes. With a snip profile,it's just showing us how you're related to
other people, And people say,oh, I don't want law enforcement poking
around in my DNA. Also wecan see is what you can see how
(03:32):
you're related to other people in thesite. That's it. There's no medical
information, none of that. Wedon't have access to any of that.
But I mean, in some way, though, aren't you asking someone to
voluntarily give their information on the outsidechance it could help increminate a relative that
may be it? Yeah, andI know some people are against that,
(03:54):
but personally, if one of myrelatives was out raping and murdering, please
use my DNA to catch them.On the other hand, though, it
could also help you find lost relatives. Absolutely, the genetic genealogists that we're
using this for the adoptees laid thegroundwork, so it's just building off of
what they've done already, and theysay, oh, there's all kinds of
(04:18):
rude surprises that can come up.Well, the adoptees when you're identifying them,
they have the same thing happening.There's affairs in the family that turns
out their fathers not their father.So it's nothing new there. And I've
run into that on cases where howis this person related to the family line
(04:41):
on tracking down and it turns outher grandmother had an affair and her father
was a result of that affair,and those can be very delicate conversations,
and so it's it's still there foradoptees. It's been there. It's nothing
new. And another thing that cameout of this case amazing technology With the
(05:08):
Barbrook victims, their DNA was verydegraded, a lot of back refreshing everyone
who those victims are, okay,they were victims of Terry Brasmus and there
were murdered back in New Hampshire andthe bear Brook State Park and dumped in
barrels so they weren't found for years. Right, that's the woman and the
children that were found in the barrelsand his bio child, and the DNA
(05:30):
was very degraded, a lot ofbacterial overgrowth. And Professor Green from UC
Santa Cruz had been working on DNAand Barbara Reinventer, the Tonight Genealogists saw
what he was doing and we contactedhim and said, hey, this is
what's going on. What do youthink And within a year he had it
(05:53):
he can get a DNA profile froma single strand of rootless hair, and
that's how they DNA on the Berrebertvictims for the SNIP profile. And he's
been doing he has his own labnow, Astery Labs, and he's been
doing cases for law enforcement and FBI. After we identified him, I had
(06:16):
a call from Steve Kramer, thatat the time was working out at Elliott
La FBI office and asking me aboutthe LESA case. So I briefed him
on it and I was like,this is amazing. If you're dead ended,
you still got a shot at itnow, and told him if you've
got something you're working on, you'vegot to talk to Barbara Venner. I
couldn't have done it without her tobuild the family trees at all. And
(06:42):
he did. And the team thatwas working on the Golden State Killer brought
Barbara in and she's the one thatidentified the Golden State Killer. You know,
once I publicly announced that that wasIgG investigative genetic genealogy, it's just
exploded. Now it's grown a crossthe country. Everybody's using it. And
again, I know there's an asayersaying it's a privacy issue, but I
(07:08):
just don't see where they're going withit, because again I can't see your
medical information or anything else, justhow you're related to other people. I
think it just goes back to peoplewho don't trust the government. Yeah,
and really is what it boils downto. But so when you go back,
you think about the Golden State Killercase and how far back that goes
(07:29):
also, Oh yeah, and youknow they were able to do this,
you know the science. So nowthe professor Green, was he working in
like investigative forensics. Was he inthat field? No? No, he
was working on dinosaur DNA, youknow, ancient DNA, and then he'd
started working with hair. So thebarrels and when the woman and the three
(07:53):
children found in the barrels. Werethe barrels buried, No, they were
on they were film. Um,some of the lids had popped open a
little bit water had gotten in,so you know, and then the barrels
had tipped over. And it wasin a park, right, you said,
yeah, it's out in a foreston a forest. And so then
that then that had been degraded overthe time. And this guy was able
(08:18):
to figure that out. Huh.Yeah, it took him a year or
though, you said, right,Yeah, and he's got it dialed in
now and from one hair, andhe's helped on a lot of cases.
Now he has his own lab.Wow. So this one case you stumbled
on back in twenty twelve become thebasis of science that's being used all around
(08:41):
the country now that it's exploding everywhere. Yeah, maybe there's gonna be closure
for more and more people. Ohyeah, and that's what it's about.
It's for the victims. Give themclosure, the victims. Families. Um,
Marlesa's family, the woman in thebarrel, and you know, they
they've been wondering for years and yearstrying to find her, their sister and
(09:01):
find out what happened to her.Is that everything? Yeah, do we
cover everything? Okay? Good,doesn't make sure? Okay, well then
Pete, thanks for thanks for allof the history lesson too. I mean,
this is all fascinating stuff, andthis is this is the wave of
the future for policing. I thinkfor absolutely, I think it is this
family, the familial DNA, andI think this is all the future of
(09:24):
policing and I appreciate you bringing itto our attention. Okay, thank you.
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