Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is What's at Risk with Mike Christian on WBZ
Boston's news radio. Hi, Mike Christian. Here of What's at Risk.
First up on tonight's show, we speak with doctor Kumar Murdy,
a distinguished mathematician and scholar at the University of Toronto
and director of Fields Institute for Research in Mathematical Sciences.
(00:25):
Drawing from his new book, The Science of Human Possibilities,
Doctor Murdy illustrates the interconnectedness of mental acuity and spiritual enlightenment.
And in our second segment, we welcome Matt Murphy, former
Senior Deputy District Attorney in Orange County, California's homicide Unit,
and the author of the book of Murder, A Prosecutor's
(00:48):
Journey through Love and Death. Matt offers an honest account
of what being a homicide prosecutor demands and shares a
deeply personal story of finding fulfillment and peace in this calling.
Kumar Murdy is an Indo Canadian mathematician renowned for his
work in number theory. He serves as a professor at
(01:11):
the University of Toronto and is a director of the
Fields Institute. Doctor Murdy has made pioneering contributions to areas
such as analytical number theory, algebraic number theory, and information security.
His academic journey includes a PhD in mathematics from Harvard
University in nineteen eighty two. Doctor Murdy has been recognized
(01:34):
with numerous accolades, including being elected as a Fellow of
the Royal Society of Canada. Our guest today is distinguished
mathematician and scholar, doctor Kumar Murdy, author of the Science
(01:58):
of Human Possibilities or I'm Murty. Great to have you
on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Hi, Mike, it's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Maybe just to get started, you can tell our listeners
a little bit about your background.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Sure. My field, as you said in the introduction, is
the mathematics. I'm a professor of mathematics at the University
of Toronto. I studied at various places and worked in
Montreal and be for a while, and then I ended
up in Toronto. My field within mathematics is number theory
and algebraic geometry. And nowadays I especially like to see
(02:29):
the way mathematics manifest themselves beyond our traditional boundaries and
in society, and moreover, what we learned from mathematics in
terms of our interpersonal relationships humanistic sides like creativity and
discovery and so on.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
And I know your field of study is fairly complex,
and just for those of us that don't quite know
exactly what you do, maybe just a brief overview of
things like analytic number theory and algebraic number theory, those
types of things that you're working on.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Sure, themetics starts actually from a very natural place about
when we try to understand quantitative concepts, and then we
discover relationships that we didn't expect in the beginning. We find, example,
continuous phenomena affecting discrete phenomena. When we talk about whole
numbers like one, two, three, four, that's a discrete set,
(03:23):
and yet to study them we use aspects of continuous
phenomena like geometry, like a curve, you know, like when
you draw a curve or a surface, it's the continuous object,
and yet that seems to affect this discrete set that
you were initially interested in. So a lot of number
theories about the interplay between these different facets of structures,
(03:44):
in fact, all of mathematics may be the underlying theme
is discovery of structures that, especially hidden structures in quantitative phenomena,
and then using those knowledge of those structures to make
to deepen our knowledge and to make predictions about what
these numbers will do.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Now in your book you start to talk about the
interconnectedness of mental acuity and spiritual enlightenment in that whole
merging of science and spirituality. How did that thought come
to you and how did that evolve for you to
I think see it in perspective the interplay.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I think between something very objective like the mathematics that
we can actually show each other what we do, and
then the other extreme of it will talk about the
spiritual connection and interconnectedness. The intermediate there is the esthetic sense,
the sense of beauty, in the sense of creativity, so
(04:39):
as we do it doesn't have to be mathematics actually
anything that we engage in with the whole desire to well,
not only am I able to do this, this is
just so beautiful in its own and one thatd aesthetic sense,
that sense of beauty, sense of love awakeance. Then you
start seeing it's not restricted to the particular thing you
were working on. You feel it. So the spiritual thing,
(05:02):
while well, that is harder to grasp and more difficult
to define, the bridge between that and the rational and
the objective is our sense of love and the sense
of beauty and the desire to experience that. That, I
think is the bridge.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And part of your philosophy just emanates from I think
Hinduism and reading the Upanishads and the Bagavagita. Was that
something that you grew up with and now have integrated
it into the way you look at the world from
a scientific perspective or how did that all evolve?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yes, you're right, I mean in a way, we were
exposed to it when we were children. But I think
the thing important thing about these kind of deep ideas,
whether it's the Indian tradition or whether it's any other tradition,
is these are profound concepts that are contained in these teachings.
We may be exposed to them, but you have to
key stay with it. And as we grow, as we mature,
(05:58):
as our experience broadens in as we've become deeper, the
full meaning contained in there will start to sort of
grow within us like a flower, and then you see
the fuller ramifications of these ideas. So funny, I think
that's the way it happened. We were exposed to it
when we're children, but growing up reading more about it,
hearing people explain it, and actually being fortunate enough to
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see a few people manifest it in their own lives,
I think is what developed this point of view within me.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Now with your book The Science of Human Possibilities, you
do get into various areas of I guess I could
use the term self improvement. There's a term you use
lift yourself up by yourself, which I think came from
the Bagha Baghida. And so you touch on different areas.
One of the areas that you speak to is in
one of the early chapters neuroplasticity, which is the brain's
(06:50):
ability to change and adapt. Talk to us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, So while we hear often you know from people
that there is a lot of possibility within us. I
think it's modern science is giving us a real tool
to say this is not just a theory, but actually
something that is real and it can be implemented. Namely,
the brain is a dynamic entity. Going back to the
(07:19):
research of people like Wilder Penfield, you know, who drew
functional maps of the brain. You know, so this part
of the brain does this is for this function and
so on. The subject has evolved to the point where
we realize these functional maps are not static but dynamic,
and therefore, according to the need that we feel, the
desire that we have, the functional map of the brain
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can be redrawn. So where we feel the need to
develop in something, For example, we really want to solve
a problem, we really want to be able to do something,
the brain rewires itself to make it possible for you
to do that. That just knowing that alone gives a
big boost, a good deal of encouragement to people. So
(08:04):
I think it's good to start off by saying that
while we have the aspirations, science packs us up with this,
especially modern neuroscience packs us up with you have the
physiological capability to do what it is you're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So if you think about neuroplasticity, and I'll just use
an example, Let's say I learned to play guitar when
I'm in my seventies. Obviously I have to stretch, I
have to learn new things that I haven't done before.
Once I get some ability to play guitar, does that
have a positive impact on other aspects of my life?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You think it could. I mean, it really depends on
our attitude. How I relate that playing the guitar. For example,
Suppose playing the guitar surprises me and say, I didn't
even realize I was capable of doing that. You know,
it's been a long time since I tried to learn
anything new, and here I am I learned it. Well,
that can have a pillow effect. You know, in other
(09:01):
parts of life, where were challenged with a particular situation,
we might say hold on. My older reaction might have
been to say, I'm sorry, I just don't know anything
about this, but I will just hold on. Just recently,
I did exactly something like that. I did something. I
learned something where I didn't think I had the capability.
(09:21):
So maybe I can do this too. So it does
have a spill over effect in terms of our attitudes
and what we're capable of.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Gives us confidence to yes we might otherwise not have right.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes, yes, yes, right.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
You have another section of the book that I'll interpret
as service to others. I think you term it the
power of good wishes and encouragement. Tell us something about that, well, I.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Mean, it's also important to understand maybe our what is
most valuable about us, what makes us unique, is our humanity.
And so whenever we think in terms of our own potential,
our own talents, and our abilities. We can't do this
in isolation without realizing we're part of a community, we're
(10:07):
part of a world. And so that's the first thing.
The second thing is that if in fact and that
if we in fact pay attention to our context, the
people we live with, the community we work with, the
country we belong to, the world we belong to, not
only is that contextualize what we're trying to do, but
actually it helps us what we're trying to do. Often,
(10:29):
you see, we are people who this personal connection. Personal
relationships are very important. They have a big impact on
the way we think and the way we react to things.
And so the give and take that happens when we
interact with each other and we try to help somebody
when they try to help us. Sometimes it works, sometimes
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it doesn't. All of that goes to making us more alive, stronger,
more avacant to what's actually going on within us and
the world. So I think that those two things cannot
be separated. As I strive to manifest, to discover and
manifest and develop my own potential and possibilities, I have
to help everyone else as well do the same thing,
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and in doing that, my goal, my journey will actually
be accelerated in the process. So the power of good
vicious and thanking people, being appreciative of people, these are
actually very very important even for my own development. And
at the same time, you see it has a flip thing.
That flip side to it is that you're actually to
use the world the phrase you're actually doing good to
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the world. Rather you're actually benefiting those around us. And
that's an important theme that serving people is not different
from serving ourselves. Those two things go together.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
From big think. In a striking tribute to the mathematician
Emmyother upon her death in nineteen thirty five, Albert Einstein
penned on New York Times Appreciation, lauding her discoveries while
at the same time drawing larger life life lessons about
the unselfish work of thinkers like her who illuminate human understanding. Mathematics,
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he says, is the poetry of logical ideas. Hinting at
mother's success, he explains, in this effort toward logical beauty,
spiritual formulae are discovered necessary for the deeper penetration into
the laws of nature. The word spiritual is a surprising
adjective for formulae, isn't it. Elegant might have been a
(12:30):
more conventional word choice, and yet Einstein chose his words
to underscore a more profound level of mathematical beauty. Mathematical
pursuits and religious pursuits are alike in many ways and
evokes similar feelings and responses in their devotees. And if,
as Einstein did, one sees the transcendent importance of the
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mathematical formulae to human progress and understanding the laws of nature,
then indeed, perhaps it is a appropriate to call such
insights spiritual. And there's another area that you talk about,
just the dynamics of cultural interaction, and I think that
service component. How does that relate to our view of
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other cultures and our interactions with other cultures, because it's
so important today and with all the negative.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Things, absolutely important. I mean that in every interaction that
we have, we have to see what's the impact on us,
And if we pay attention to this, the impact is
that we are learning new things, We are growing, both
not only in terms of information, but even in terms
of sensitivity, in terms of understanding in certain terms of communication.
(13:43):
I think many people would have had something some similar
kind of experience. A homeless person was in the subway
station or somewhere asking for a handout. So I was
passing by. I reached in my pocket. I had a quarter,
so I gave him the quarter. He looked at the
quarter and threw it away. You know, how dared you
give me a quarter? You should give me at least
(14:04):
a dollar. That shocked me at first. It shocked me
at first, but then reflecting on that, I understand. You know,
it's not I've thought I was helping the person. But
if what does help really mean? You know it, we
have to understand it from the other person's point of
view too. So I think this whole business of interacting
with people is the best teacher we have if we
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are open to those lessons. And the more the cultural
diversity the better, The more the even religious diversity. The
more more diversity in general, the greater the chance that
we're going to learn something new. Take here in Canada,
and I think the situation must be similar in America.
You know, with the indigenous population. People point to all
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sorts of issues there, But how are we going to
ever deal with that. If we don't understand, if we
don't take the trouble to understand, you know, we go
in with our own ideas of this is what's going
to make things better, and they were completely wrong. So
I think the the diversity setting is really a boon
for us. It makes it possible for me to learn
from many different angles. Only thing is I have to
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be open to it. The thing that resists that within
us is our own ego.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
So with that point, you did reference the ego and
being mindful of understanding other people's perspectives. But what are
some ways that we all can maybe be more proactive
about understanding others perspectives?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, I mean there's the simplest one. If I was
in that situation, how would I like to be treated?
Try to understand why a certain person reacted in the
way they did. And then the second thing is a
little bit of philosophy helps too. You see you ask, yes,
culturally they're different, I'm learning something. But as human beings
were united, So even just reflecting a little bit philosophically
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on yes, there are differences, and I'm going to try
to learn actually from those differences. But there are things
something that also connects us. So I would say those
are the two things that would that would help us
in the first instance, one to see how how would
we want to be treated, and secondly to realize that
what are the commonalities that we have?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And going back to that first phrase we talked about
a little while ago, lift yourself up by yourself? What
is the importance of discipline and reflection and the interaction
between personal discipline and then reflection.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
So this is a really really good point, very important
point is first, this phrase that occurs in the geta
lift yourself by yourself means that don't wait for somebody
to lift you up, don't wait for somebody to help you,
whether it's you know, whatever form you you want to
give that, whether if it's your concept of God, whether
it's the concept of our friend. You have within yourself
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the means by which you can better your situation, and
so do that. Now the question is so once we well,
we suppose we hear that, and we say, okay, that's
why I believe, I accept that I have the means
to improve my situation. What should I do? Well, we
actually it's an interesting question. What should I do? Often
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when if that's the first time we're asking this and
we're facing this, we will come up with something unrealistic
or some maybe it's not quite quite the right thing
to do. So that's why we need a little bit
of reflection. Also, I mean it doesn't mean that we
need to wait for the perfect answer. We can get
going with what we're trying to do, but we need
then to take stock. We need to just take a
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step back and say, Okay, I think this is how
I can improve my situation. I took an action, this
is what happened. Now let me reflect on it, and
through that reflection I can fine tune. I can correct course,
correct if necessary, so that my efforts are more effective.
So everything has a method on an approach. You can
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take your own approach. You can take it, you know,
you can create your own approach. But the point is
it's clear to all of us that in anything we do,
some efforts are more effective than others. We can discover
that for ourselves. I just said, you don't have to
know in advance. You do something and then you evaluate
it and you see something it's not as effective, then
I change it. By that efforts at trial and error,
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we can sort of hone in on the way that
is the most effective. But that's what I mean by discipline.
Discipline means I sort of analyze this and then figure
out what is the most effective, and then I stick
to it. Remember, things aren't done in a day. As
eager as we are to get to our goal, it's
not going to happen in a day. If we changed
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our course every day, then we won't get to our goal.
So we need to have a little bit of faith
and patience that daily effort. I'm reflecting in my approach.
I'm observing and making any corrections I might need, and
now let it happen in the fullness of time. So
those kind of being patient, I think these are the.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Steps that's good advice. How with your mathematics background, how
do mathematics, science and technology play a part in all
of this, that all the things that you've been talking
about in terms of looking at ourselves and really creating
change through a variety of different ways.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
So the first thing about math is the special feature
of the mathematical language. It's very precise, but it's also abstract.
You try to see what is what problem is really
being asked. Sometimes people will come to you with a
problem by a problem. I mean, so let's say you're
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given a problem that can be formulated mathematically, but the person,
because of what they're interested in, has added all sorts
of things that we realize are actually not relevant, not
relevant for this. You know, I could strip the problem
down to its bare minimum, and when I solve that problem,
I will I will have solved actually a more abstract
problem than that was given. So that's a way of
(20:02):
mathematical style of thinking, and I think it works well
in life as well. Where we make, we take an action,
it's either a success or somewhere in between, and then
we realize just it's not just this particular event, but
I can abstract it what was behind, what was my
attitude maybe the action, and realize that's the attitude that
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I'm getting a feedback on. And technology, I think the
great thing about technology is it's made many things possible
that were nearly impossible some time ago. I mean, just think,
for example, right now, suppose I hear a word that
I don't know about. All I need to do is
check up, take out my phone or top and type
that word in and I get the meaning right away.
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I suppose somebody makes reference to a news item that
I had not heard about if I had right away.
So technology is possible gathering of information really FASTI gives
us even other ways of rearranging that information or searching
for that information more more efficient. But all these uticles
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for me that I will now have to sort of
digest and reflect on and turn into things that can
help me forward it towards my goal.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Now, you mentioned AI, are you Are you bullish about
the future of AI and and how it can impact
us the climate.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So so my attitude about AI is it doesn't really
matter whether we like it or we don't like it.
It's here, the genie is out of the bottle, and
so we're going to have to deal with it. And
if I, if I take a step back, actually it's
not the first time we were in this kind of situation.
We were here before, and humanity as a whole has
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learned more or less perfectly or imperfectly to deal with
it in some way. I think, for example, let's go
back to the time when television was first discovered or
invented and people could afford a television set in their house.
People call it it the idiot box. You know, it's
a place where you just sit there with a way,
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looking vacantly at something and not realizing what's going into
your head. It may be the case, but that television
is also an instrument by which a lot of people
are able to get instruction, you know where that they
weren't able to before. Some people thought that the invention
of television meant the end of cinema, because why would
anyone go to the cinema you can see it on
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your screen. But actually cinema got better. So every time
technology is invented, it's up to us how we take
advantage of it. And so I don't think we need
to be apprehensive, but we do need to be proactive.
So from my point of view, AI is a tool.
It's basically glorified search. Frankly, if you want to dumb
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it all, AI is just glorified search. It I can
do a Star Trek type of communication with a computer.
You know, it's a computer, tell me and it analyzes
many records and tells me. That's what it does. So
now the question is how can I use that to
go even further. I'm already using it in a way
whenever I want to analyze more complicated things. Than just
(23:18):
a simple search. But at the end of the day,
it gives me. It's one factor, one input. The person
who's thinking, the person who's making the effort is still
me and so that's I think the way we have
to look at it in terms of the future.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Those all are great points I think for looking at
AI and the future with a perspective of from a
positive perspective as opposed to taking over the world. Well,
our guest today is being doctor Kamara Murti, the author
of the Science of Human Possibilities. Doctor Murty, thanks so
much for joining us. Great insights. I appreciate you being
(23:56):
on the show.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Thanks Mike, I enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We'll be right back after the news at the bottom
of the hour.