July 11, 2023 • 27 mins
Labs shares a significant moment in Steelers training camp and franchise history before he and Tom get into the questions of the day.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Asked and Answered questions with Tom Upferman and
Steelers Digest editor Bob Labriola.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
With training camp just a little over two weeks away,
we thought it would be really nice of us here
on this podcast before we get into the questions of
this week.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
To give you maybe a nice training camp moment or two.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
In this episode in the next episode to kind of
lead you into twenty twenty three training camp and LABS.
I just want to be clear, these are moments that
have to do with the Steelers and players, right, Like,
it can't be my first grilled cheese cheeseburger at Sharky's
that brought us here in my eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
No, right, it's not that it's not your first stuff
bananna pepper pizza either, because those.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Are one two on my list of key moments of
training camp.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm sure you might want.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
A couple others well, And there's a certain you know,
sports director at WDVE who he has a tradition, you know,
of opening training camp with a banana pepper pizza. So
you know he has to, I guess, prepare his stomach
for the abuse that's going to take over the ensuing
(01:09):
days and weeks. But he will be he will remain nameless. No,
these are, in my opinion, franchise defining moments that happened
at a specific training camp practice. Trying to narrow it
down as much as possible, and.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I'm sure that was tough for you to do.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean, there is obviously weightier moments than others. But
with a franchise as historic as this, with a location
as historic as Saint Vincent, I mean, there's a ton
of moments you can choose from.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I don't love to be honest, You're you're correct
about that, But it wasn't that difficult for me to
pick two because they, in my opinion, are significant enough
that really kind of changed the course of the franchise
at that particular moment in time. So we're going to
(01:58):
start all start chronologically. I'm gonna take everyone back to
nineteen sixty nine, and I say this with the you know,
typical disclaimer that while I am old, I was not
old enough to actually be present for this training camp.
But nineteen sixty nine, Chuck noles first year first draft
(02:21):
pick was Joe Green, and Joe Green was a holdout.
He didn't sign his rookie contract, held out for more money.
The way that Joe Green tells the story is that
he was in Pittsburgh at the time. He was He
(02:42):
showed up at the Roosevelt Hotel at the time because
even three Over Stadium was not yet open. He's negotiating
with Dan Rooney. Art Rooney Senior at one point just
said to his son, give him what he wants, and
that was the end of the negotiation. Joe Green signed
his contract. The chief handed him with a cigar, handed
(03:05):
him a cigar. Joe Green said, he still has that cigar,
by the way, never lit it up, never smoked it.
And so Dan Rooney then puts him in his car
and they drive up to Latrobe. The Steelers at obviously
began training camp. So Joe Green shows up. The team
is on the field already, and he goes up and
(03:27):
gets you know, his practice uniform on. And in nineteen
sixty nine, there were no acclamation days, so the first,
you know, the first practice was in pads. Joe Green's
first practice was in pads. As soon as he starts
walking down the hill from the locker room to the field,
(03:50):
Chuck Noll orders a Oklahoma drill and just to give
the listeners a quick explanation of the Oklahoma drill, which
is now illegal according to the collective bargaining agreement. You
put up. You put two tackling dummies on the ground,
lay flat, and it's about I would say, I don't know,
(04:15):
three four feet between them. On the one side of
the tackling dummy is the defensive player. On the other
side of the tackling dummy is an offensive blocker, a quarterback,
and a running back. When the whistle blows, the quarterback
(04:35):
takes the snap if they're you know, because it's not
always a center that's blocking the defensive lineman. But you
need that you know, snapping thing. So the ball is snapped,
the quarterback hands the ball to the running back who
has to run between the two tackling dummies. And that's
where all the action occurs right there. So Joe Green
(04:58):
is immediately put on defense. And the first man in
for the offense was Ray Mansfield, veteran center starter. And
you know, this is Andy Russell, you know, telling this story,
who was a part of the defense at the time.
Andy Russell is saying that the offensive players are all snickering.
(05:24):
You know, Mansfield is going to give this rookie his lunch,
and so Mansfield Chuck blows the whistle. Joe Green just
throws Mansfield to the side and tackles the running back. Okay,
do it again, same thing now, you know, Andy Russell says,
the offensive lineman like start looking around at each other.
(05:46):
You know, what do we what do we got here?
And so then you know, the goes on Mansfield. Bruce
van Dyke, another veteran, longtime veteran NFL player, gets thrown
away by Joe Greenry Gagner. I mean, Joe Green's going
through the entire offensive line one at a time, defeating
everybody next right, making all these plays. Andy Russell, who
(06:10):
wrote a couple of books about you know, the Steelers,
his time there. He's then, he said, in addition to
the offensive lineman like looking at each other, who is
this guy? He said, the defensive lineman started looking at
each other, is thinking who's going to get cut because
of this guy? And it didn't take very long for
that to actually happen. You know, Joe Green, and during
(06:32):
his rookie training camp, he were number seventy two because
number seventy five belonged to a long time veteran defensive
lineman by the name of ken Cordis, who had started
thirty eight games of the previous few seasons for the
Steelers at defensive tackle. So Joe Green, you know, he's
destroying all these people. And as so happened, nineteen sixty
(06:57):
nine was ken Cortis's last season in the NFL, or
not not last season in the NFL, last season for
the Steelers. And then when number seventy five became available
because ken Cordis had worn that, and the procedure at
the time was, you know, veterans got to keep their
jerseys even if number one picks came in and wanted
(07:20):
that number. So ken Cortis gave up his number seventy five.
That became Joe Green's number, and the rest is, as
they say history. For a lot of reasons that very
drill I believe changed the course of the Steelers in
the sense that not only was a new sheriff in town,
(07:42):
but the kind of player that Chuck Noll wanted to
turn around a team that had won nothing to that point,
and its its existence not only in talent, attitude, will
to win. All of that was on display in that
(08:03):
very first drill of Joe Green's first training camp, and
I really think that, you know, beyond the what it
meant in terms of the addition of a you know,
a great, great player, it also showed everybody who was
standing around watching, Because everybody was standing around watching, Okay,
(08:25):
this is it now, this is this is how things
are going to go from here.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
And when Chuck Noll had told those players in his
first meeting with them after he was hired, this was
even before training camp, when he said, our goal is
to win the super Bowl, but most of you are
not good enough to be here when that happens. So
that also kind of illustrated that point in pretty graphic
(08:53):
fashion to all those players there for that meeting, and
then there for that first training game practice.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean that moment that you just described it, it
seemed like it was right out of a movie. Like
if Hollywood wanted to make the Joe Green story, they
wouldn't have to dramatize any of what you just said
as far as that first practice was concerned. It sounds
like something Disney would cook up on their.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Own, right. And there is a famous photo, Steeler's photo
of Chuck Noll and Joe Green standing next to each
other during his rookie training camp. Whether it was that
first day or not. You know, I don't know for sure.
Joe Green is not wearing a uniform, He's wearing a
(09:35):
T shirt, but he has obviously just been working out.
Maybe he took off, you know, the pad. Maybe it
was after the first practice, whatever it was, but Joe
Green is obvious. You know, he's sweating and everything, and
he's standing next to Chuck Nole and he has that
Joe Green look on his face, and you know, Nol
has the Chuck Nole look on his face. I mean,
they weren't yucking enough for the camera or anything, but
(09:58):
you know, you could tell that it was all business,
and you know, the business that had changed with his arrival,
both of them, no.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Question about that.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Before next week's episode of Before we get into the questions.
On next week's episode, Labs will show you another key
moment from Steelers' training camp before we start training camp
as the players move in to Wednesdays from now July
twenty six.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
But let's get to today's questions.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Our first one comes from Jim Anderson from Toledo, Ohio,
and he wants to know during training camp does the
depth chart change daily or weekly, and is it posted
for players to see?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, Mike Tomlin is not a big fan of
depth charts. Well, let me put it this way. He's
not a big fan of putting a depth chart on
a piece of paper during training camp or at any really,
at any point. He does do it in conjunction with
NFL rules for such things. And the reason that Tomlin
(10:59):
is not a fan of depth charts on paper is
that he believes that it can change daily, and it
often does change daily. As I mentioned, you know, there
are NFL requirements for depth charts, and the Steelers always
comply with those. But as for posting them for players
to see, you know, I believe that that practice would
(11:25):
maybe have some players, make them complacent guys who are
at the top of the depth chart and guys who
were at the bottom of the depth chart may cause
them to give up. You know, if you're if you
know how many how many wide receivers are there ten
maybe on a training camp roster, so far as a
(11:45):
depth chart, and you're, you know, one of those undrafted
guys or a futures contract guy or something like that.
In your ninth or tenth on the depth chart, maybe
you start looking at that thinking man, then they maybe
keep five or sick some tenth and you kind of
like check out mentally. So there's none of that with
(12:08):
the Steelers under Tomlin. I mean, the competition during training
camp is presented to the players as a marathon, and
the race isn't over or you know, in terms of
winning it or losing it, until the finish line is crossed.
And that won't come until, you know, through the three
I almost set four preseason games. Through the three preseason games,
(12:29):
Well that shows y'all oldem I already mentioned that's for us. Okay, yeah,
we don't want extra preseason games. Yeah, but you know
until that's over, and especially now you know there's only
one roster cut. So why would you want to either
inject false hope into some people or dash their hope
(12:53):
in some people by putting up something that by the
time the ink dries on the printer paper, it might
all already be obsolete.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Kent Herbs from Lake Saint Louis, Missouri asks, with JJ
Watt and t J Watt both having great careers, with
TJ's career still in progress, that might put them on
a path to enshrinement in Canton. Are there any brothers
enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
There are not not as yet anyway. You know. There
are a few examples of fathers and sons the maras
Art Rooney Senior and Dan Rooney as examples of fathers
and sons in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but
there are currently no sets of brothers. Now, you know,
(13:41):
some fans may disagree with this. I think that there's
a good chance that the first brothers to go in
will be the Mannings.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, I think you guys gonna get it.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I do too, you know, And whether you know, and
I don't know of another potential, you know, on the
on deck circle, so to speak, brother tandem to go
to have the possibility of being enshrined. But it seems
to me that the first set of brothers will be
the Mannings.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Whenever that happens, it actually might not be far fetched.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I know we're still a ways away with TJ's career,
but that the Watts might be the one on deck,
just because there's not many other options out there.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, you know, I'm not going to.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Argue because getting it right, I mean, we agree with that.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I really don't believe that there's much chance that he
will not, you know, again, with him, it's a question
of when, not if, and you know, trying to predict
the when you know with this it's just difficult for me.
I mean, I would think that, you know, JJ Watt
would be a you know, I don't want to say
(14:50):
first ballot Locke, but I mean he I think that
he has enough credentials to get in you know, very
soon after he is eligible. But a lot of it
sometimes has to do with other guys in the class,
other guys who were eligible at the time, et cetera,
et cetera. So yeah, you could be right that JJ
(15:12):
and TJ maybe in the on deck circle in the
you know brother category, and who knows, I mean, I
don't know, you know, probably how long TJ's career is
gonna last. Does Eli? Is there a lot of anti
Eli bias? You know, I don't know, you hear a
lot of things, but you could be right about that.
(15:34):
It could be the Mannings and then the Watts.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Philip Scarcela from Steven City, Virginia, in your opinion, is
the secondary better than last year?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Going into training camp?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know, the going into training camp category doesn't mean
a whole lot. I mean not to me anyway, because
looking back on twenty twenty two, you know, the team's
issues at cornerback really didn't reveal themselves to me, at
least until the regular season started. You know, when you're
looking at the twenty twenty two training camp depth charted cornerback,
(16:11):
you had Cam Sutton, Levi Wallace, Kello Witherspoon, and Arthur
Mollett among some others. Okay, and it wasn't really until
the team got into the heart of their regular season
that it became apparent that the position of cornerback was
hardly a strength. Okay, So you're looking at cornerback now,
the Steelers have added Patrick Peterson, Joey Porter junior, Corey
(16:35):
Trice Junior as their main additions, and then Cam Sutton,
Kello Witherspoon, and Arthur Molett are no longer with the team.
So labeling one configuration at cornerback better or worse than
the other would just be speculating at this point because
(16:56):
we you know, they haven't even put on pads yet
or we haven't seen how they're going to be deployed utilized,
so you know, it doesn't really matter what I think
at this point, I really and having an opinion now,
you know, is a guess. But what I'm comfortable in
saying is the Steelers were not good enough at cornerback
(17:18):
in twenty twenty two, and they took steps during this
off season to make some changes in an attempt to
rectify that. So that's a plus. And then there's also
the plus who is not a cornerback, and that is
someone named Minka Fitzpatrick, in my opinion, the best free
safety in football. There is no you know, he's signed
(17:44):
to a long term contract, so there's no unknown qualities there.
So you know, he's twenty six going on twenty seven,
he's a three time first team All Pro. He's in
his prime as a player. I'm referring to manke if
it's Patrick, and you know, I would imagine that he
(18:04):
should be a better version of himself in twenty twenty three.
And if he is, then I think that, you know,
that trickles down to the rest of the defensive backfield,
which would be certainly include the cornerbacks. So the secondary
certainly has been set up to be better, whether it
(18:24):
actually you know, manifests itself or comes to fruition. We'll
have to see when the pads go on.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
John Knox from Nashville, Tennessee, do you think having Super
Bowl rings adds to the weight of a person's candidacy
for the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Lyn Swan didn't
have great numbers, but made a lot of highlight reel
catches and had four rings. Louis Lipps had slightly better
numbers but no rings.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, there's no question in my mind that Super Bowl
championships and the people on the Board of Selectors have
told me this. Championships super Bowl rings way in the
consideration when people are discussed in the room to be
(19:13):
elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. So, okay,
using the example John's example, specifically, Lynn Swan for super
Bowl rings and also was the MVP of Super Bowl ten.
So I remember the year that Swan ended up finally
getting elected. Ed Bouchett, who was the representative Pittsburgh representative
(19:40):
at the time, who was pleading his case for Swan,
pleading Swan's case. The thing that he said was Bouchett's
point to them was if all we're going to talk
about are Swan's numbers, then let's not have this anymore.
Let's just stab pablished numbers, and then if they don't
(20:02):
exceed these numbers, they don't get in. And if they
do exceed the numbers, let's put them in. Because if
that's if it's numbers are the thing, then it should
be just about the numbers. And let's not go through
this ten hour you know, debate about all these guys.
And that got through to enough people that it, you know,
flipped the scales a little bit and Swan got in.
(20:24):
So yes, championships and Super Bowl rings do impact someone's
ability to get elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Glenn Pass event from Tecumsa, Michigan asks a football rules question,
what is the difference between a forward lateral and a
shuttle pass? My understanding is that a shuttle pass is allowed,
but a forward lateral is not.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Okay, first of all, the correct term is shovel pass,
you know, like you use when you dig a hole because.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
The walls mind boggling there in confusion.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Right or mind bobbling, so okay, So a shovel pass.
And my understanding is that that's what it's called because
it's somewhat similar to the way the ball is delivered
you know, the shoveling motion, and usually it's a kind
of an underhanded flip of the football. And the the
(21:27):
other primary difference is, you know, a shovel pass is
delivered from behind the line of scrimmage. The quarterback takes
the snap either under center or in the shotgun, and
he shovels the ball forward to the eligible receiver running back,
tight end, wide receiver, whatever it might be. And all
(21:47):
of that happens behind the line of scrimmage. A forward
lateral Once the person holding the ball crosses the line
of scrimmage, if you throw with forward, flip it forward,
any of that, that's a forward lateral and that is
not legal.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And our final question today comes from Scott Randall from Conway,
South Carolina. After the draft and on paper it seems
as though the Steelers added some amazing draft choices. But
has the team done anything to upgrade our punter? The
important question at the end, Good job laughs, good organization.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, let me just say this to Scott, fans impression
of Presley Harvian the third is not the same as
the Steelers coaches evaluation of him. You know a lot
of fans will criticize Harvin or you know, downgrade him
(22:54):
in their own minds because of what they perceive, you know,
to be inconsistent perform Ormans, or you know, he doesn't
kick the ball far enough or whatever. But what the
Steelers want from their punter primarily is directional kicking. And
directional kicking is important because that's how the coverage is
(23:15):
set up. So if you know in the the fineness
the accuracy that they want with this is so specific,
you know, they may tell Presley Harvin, we want the
ball from the numbers to the sideline. I mean it's
(23:35):
not just kick it to the right of the center
of the field. I mean they want it in a
specific place because that's where the coverage assumes the ball
is going to go, and that's where the coverage flows.
And to show how good ad he hit this, how
good he is at this. Last season, the Steelers punt
(23:57):
team ranked second in the NFL by only allowing twenty
four punts to be returned for an average of five
point seven yards per return. That's second in the NFL.
The Los Angeles Chargers, Just to give you a comparison,
they led the NFL in that category by allowing only
nineteen puns to be returned for an average of three
(24:18):
point yards per return. So, you know, the Steelers were
second in the NFL in a category that the coaching
staff perceives to be probably the most significant punting statistic
that there is. They want where they want the kicks
(24:38):
to go, and the ability of the return team to
put its offense in a good starting field position and
put the Steelers defense, you know, by extension in a
bad starting field position. Okay, now, Presley Harvan, this summer
is going to have to beat back the competition. And
(25:00):
this year it's not just a camp leg I mean,
Braden Man is a guy who the Steelers claimed off waivers.
He is a legitimate NFL punter. So it's not something
that's rubber stamped like a lot of these specialist training
camp battles can end up being. But you know, Harvin
(25:22):
is he's not on it. He doesn't have one foot
out the door. I'm just telling you that the team
thinks way too highly of him. And here's another thing.
People laugh or make fun of me for this. Presley
Harvin is a really good holder. And you know last
year in that game against the Ravens, I believe the
(25:45):
game towards the end of the season in Baltimore, there
were some adverse weather conditions going on there, and Presley
Harvin did a really nice job on the last the
game would turned out to be the game winning field goal,
getting this getting it down for Boswell to kick the
game winning field goal, and do not, do not underestimate
(26:08):
that contribution to the team. I'm not saying that Boswell
is gonna, you know, start kicking and screaming if Presley
Harvin's roster spot turns up to be in danger or
you know, ends up being in danger. But they don't
cut that guy without considering the impact on the placekicker
(26:32):
because they are a tandem snapper bolder placekicker or not
a tandem that's tantem is too. They're a triumvirate that
has to work consistently together and seamlessly together. So I
don't believe that Harvin's job is in danger, especially if
(26:55):
he just continues doing what he has been doing lately.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Here's a quick question wrap up for you for me,
which position do you think most of the civilians think
is the easiest to just plug and play anybody yet
holder or long snapper because it's either one of those two.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
They think anybody can just do that.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, well that's I would probably say long snapper because
the assumption is that if you can snap the ball
in the shotgun formation, why can't.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You long snap. That's a very good answer.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And I saw Mike Webster do that poorly a lot
towards the end of his career. And Mike Webster is
a great, great player center, but that didn't make him
necessarily great at that.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
We will be back again next week.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Get your questions into labs right now, maybe you will
hear them on that episode, and then it will be
training camp.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It is right around the corner and we couldn't be
more excited for that.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
For Bob Labriola, I'm Tom Offerman, and we always appreciate
you guys listening to ask and answered
This is Asked and Answered questions with Tom Upferman and
Steelers Digest editor Bob Labriola.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
With training camp just a little over two weeks away,
we thought it would be really nice of us here
on this podcast before we get into the questions of
this week.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
To give you maybe a nice training camp moment or two.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
In this episode in the next episode to kind of
lead you into twenty twenty three training camp and LABS.
I just want to be clear, these are moments that
have to do with the Steelers and players, right, Like,
it can't be my first grilled cheese cheeseburger at Sharky's
that brought us here in my eyes.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
No, right, it's not that it's not your first stuff
bananna pepper pizza either, because those.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Are one two on my list of key moments of
training camp.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm sure you might want.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
A couple others well, And there's a certain you know,
sports director at WDVE who he has a tradition, you know,
of opening training camp with a banana pepper pizza. So
you know he has to, I guess, prepare his stomach
for the abuse that's going to take over the ensuing
(01:09):
days and weeks. But he will be he will remain nameless. No,
these are, in my opinion, franchise defining moments that happened
at a specific training camp practice. Trying to narrow it
down as much as possible, and.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I'm sure that was tough for you to do.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean, there is obviously weightier moments than others. But
with a franchise as historic as this, with a location
as historic as Saint Vincent, I mean, there's a ton
of moments you can choose from.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I don't love to be honest, You're you're correct
about that, But it wasn't that difficult for me to
pick two because they, in my opinion, are significant enough
that really kind of changed the course of the franchise
at that particular moment in time. So we're going to
(01:58):
start all start chronologically. I'm gonna take everyone back to
nineteen sixty nine, and I say this with the you know,
typical disclaimer that while I am old, I was not
old enough to actually be present for this training camp.
But nineteen sixty nine, Chuck noles first year first draft
(02:21):
pick was Joe Green, and Joe Green was a holdout.
He didn't sign his rookie contract, held out for more money.
The way that Joe Green tells the story is that
he was in Pittsburgh at the time. He was He
(02:42):
showed up at the Roosevelt Hotel at the time because
even three Over Stadium was not yet open. He's negotiating
with Dan Rooney. Art Rooney Senior at one point just
said to his son, give him what he wants, and
that was the end of the negotiation. Joe Green signed
his contract. The chief handed him with a cigar, handed
(03:05):
him a cigar. Joe Green said, he still has that cigar,
by the way, never lit it up, never smoked it.
And so Dan Rooney then puts him in his car
and they drive up to Latrobe. The Steelers at obviously
began training camp. So Joe Green shows up. The team
is on the field already, and he goes up and
(03:27):
gets you know, his practice uniform on. And in nineteen
sixty nine, there were no acclamation days, so the first,
you know, the first practice was in pads. Joe Green's
first practice was in pads. As soon as he starts
walking down the hill from the locker room to the field,
(03:50):
Chuck Noll orders a Oklahoma drill and just to give
the listeners a quick explanation of the Oklahoma drill, which
is now illegal according to the collective bargaining agreement. You
put up. You put two tackling dummies on the ground,
lay flat, and it's about I would say, I don't know,
(04:15):
three four feet between them. On the one side of
the tackling dummy is the defensive player. On the other
side of the tackling dummy is an offensive blocker, a quarterback,
and a running back. When the whistle blows, the quarterback
(04:35):
takes the snap if they're you know, because it's not
always a center that's blocking the defensive lineman. But you
need that you know, snapping thing. So the ball is snapped,
the quarterback hands the ball to the running back who
has to run between the two tackling dummies. And that's
where all the action occurs right there. So Joe Green
(04:58):
is immediately put on defense. And the first man in
for the offense was Ray Mansfield, veteran center starter. And
you know, this is Andy Russell, you know, telling this story,
who was a part of the defense at the time.
Andy Russell is saying that the offensive players are all snickering.
(05:24):
You know, Mansfield is going to give this rookie his lunch,
and so Mansfield Chuck blows the whistle. Joe Green just
throws Mansfield to the side and tackles the running back. Okay,
do it again, same thing now, you know, Andy Russell says,
the offensive lineman like start looking around at each other.
(05:46):
You know, what do we what do we got here?
And so then you know, the goes on Mansfield. Bruce
van Dyke, another veteran, longtime veteran NFL player, gets thrown
away by Joe Greenry Gagner. I mean, Joe Green's going
through the entire offensive line one at a time, defeating
everybody next right, making all these plays. Andy Russell, who
(06:10):
wrote a couple of books about you know, the Steelers,
his time there. He's then, he said, in addition to
the offensive lineman like looking at each other, who is
this guy? He said, the defensive lineman started looking at
each other, is thinking who's going to get cut because
of this guy? And it didn't take very long for
that to actually happen. You know, Joe Green, and during
(06:32):
his rookie training camp, he were number seventy two because
number seventy five belonged to a long time veteran defensive
lineman by the name of ken Cordis, who had started
thirty eight games of the previous few seasons for the
Steelers at defensive tackle. So Joe Green, you know, he's
destroying all these people. And as so happened, nineteen sixty
(06:57):
nine was ken Cortis's last season in the NFL, or
not not last season in the NFL, last season for
the Steelers. And then when number seventy five became available
because ken Cordis had worn that, and the procedure at
the time was, you know, veterans got to keep their
jerseys even if number one picks came in and wanted
(07:20):
that number. So ken Cortis gave up his number seventy five.
That became Joe Green's number, and the rest is, as
they say history. For a lot of reasons that very
drill I believe changed the course of the Steelers in
the sense that not only was a new sheriff in town,
(07:42):
but the kind of player that Chuck Noll wanted to
turn around a team that had won nothing to that point,
and its its existence not only in talent, attitude, will
to win. All of that was on display in that
(08:03):
very first drill of Joe Green's first training camp, and
I really think that, you know, beyond the what it
meant in terms of the addition of a you know,
a great, great player, it also showed everybody who was
standing around watching, Because everybody was standing around watching, Okay,
(08:25):
this is it now, this is this is how things
are going to go from here.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
And when Chuck Noll had told those players in his
first meeting with them after he was hired, this was
even before training camp, when he said, our goal is
to win the super Bowl, but most of you are
not good enough to be here when that happens. So
that also kind of illustrated that point in pretty graphic
(08:53):
fashion to all those players there for that meeting, and
then there for that first training game practice.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean that moment that you just described it, it
seemed like it was right out of a movie. Like
if Hollywood wanted to make the Joe Green story, they
wouldn't have to dramatize any of what you just said
as far as that first practice was concerned. It sounds
like something Disney would cook up on their.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Own, right. And there is a famous photo, Steeler's photo
of Chuck Noll and Joe Green standing next to each
other during his rookie training camp. Whether it was that
first day or not. You know, I don't know for sure.
Joe Green is not wearing a uniform, He's wearing a
(09:35):
T shirt, but he has obviously just been working out.
Maybe he took off, you know, the pad. Maybe it
was after the first practice, whatever it was, but Joe
Green is obvious. You know, he's sweating and everything, and
he's standing next to Chuck Nole and he has that
Joe Green look on his face, and you know, Nol
has the Chuck Nole look on his face. I mean,
they weren't yucking enough for the camera or anything, but
(09:58):
you know, you could tell that it was all business,
and you know, the business that had changed with his arrival,
both of them, no.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Question about that.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Before next week's episode of Before we get into the questions.
On next week's episode, Labs will show you another key
moment from Steelers' training camp before we start training camp
as the players move in to Wednesdays from now July
twenty six.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
But let's get to today's questions.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Our first one comes from Jim Anderson from Toledo, Ohio,
and he wants to know during training camp does the
depth chart change daily or weekly, and is it posted
for players to see?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, Mike Tomlin is not a big fan of
depth charts. Well, let me put it this way. He's
not a big fan of putting a depth chart on
a piece of paper during training camp or at any really,
at any point. He does do it in conjunction with
NFL rules for such things. And the reason that Tomlin
(10:59):
is not a fan of depth charts on paper is
that he believes that it can change daily, and it
often does change daily. As I mentioned, you know, there
are NFL requirements for depth charts, and the Steelers always
comply with those. But as for posting them for players
to see, you know, I believe that that practice would
(11:25):
maybe have some players, make them complacent guys who are
at the top of the depth chart and guys who
were at the bottom of the depth chart may cause
them to give up. You know, if you're if you
know how many how many wide receivers are there ten
maybe on a training camp roster, so far as a
(11:45):
depth chart, and you're, you know, one of those undrafted
guys or a futures contract guy or something like that.
In your ninth or tenth on the depth chart, maybe
you start looking at that thinking man, then they maybe
keep five or sick some tenth and you kind of
like check out mentally. So there's none of that with
(12:08):
the Steelers under Tomlin. I mean, the competition during training
camp is presented to the players as a marathon, and
the race isn't over or you know, in terms of
winning it or losing it, until the finish line is crossed.
And that won't come until, you know, through the three
I almost set four preseason games. Through the three preseason games,
(12:29):
Well that shows y'all oldem I already mentioned that's for us. Okay, yeah,
we don't want extra preseason games. Yeah, but you know
until that's over, and especially now you know there's only
one roster cut. So why would you want to either
inject false hope into some people or dash their hope
(12:53):
in some people by putting up something that by the
time the ink dries on the printer paper, it might
all already be obsolete.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Kent Herbs from Lake Saint Louis, Missouri asks, with JJ
Watt and t J Watt both having great careers, with
TJ's career still in progress, that might put them on
a path to enshrinement in Canton. Are there any brothers
enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
There are not not as yet anyway. You know. There
are a few examples of fathers and sons the maras
Art Rooney Senior and Dan Rooney as examples of fathers
and sons in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but
there are currently no sets of brothers. Now, you know,
(13:41):
some fans may disagree with this. I think that there's
a good chance that the first brothers to go in
will be the Mannings.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, I think you guys gonna get it.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I do too, you know, And whether you know, and
I don't know of another potential, you know, on the
on deck circle, so to speak, brother tandem to go
to have the possibility of being enshrined. But it seems
to me that the first set of brothers will be
the Mannings.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Whenever that happens, it actually might not be far fetched.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
I know we're still a ways away with TJ's career,
but that the Watts might be the one on deck,
just because there's not many other options out there.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, you know, I'm not going to.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Argue because getting it right, I mean, we agree with that.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I really don't believe that there's much chance that he
will not, you know, again, with him, it's a question
of when, not if, and you know, trying to predict
the when you know with this it's just difficult for me.
I mean, I would think that, you know, JJ Watt
would be a you know, I don't want to say
(14:50):
first ballot Locke, but I mean he I think that
he has enough credentials to get in you know, very
soon after he is eligible. But a lot of it
sometimes has to do with other guys in the class,
other guys who were eligible at the time, et cetera,
et cetera. So yeah, you could be right that JJ
(15:12):
and TJ maybe in the on deck circle in the
you know brother category, and who knows, I mean, I
don't know, you know, probably how long TJ's career is
gonna last. Does Eli? Is there a lot of anti
Eli bias? You know, I don't know, you hear a
lot of things, but you could be right about that.
(15:34):
It could be the Mannings and then the Watts.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Philip Scarcela from Steven City, Virginia, in your opinion, is
the secondary better than last year?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Going into training camp?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know, the going into training camp category doesn't mean
a whole lot. I mean not to me anyway, because
looking back on twenty twenty two, you know, the team's
issues at cornerback really didn't reveal themselves to me, at
least until the regular season started. You know, when you're
looking at the twenty twenty two training camp depth charted cornerback,
(16:11):
you had Cam Sutton, Levi Wallace, Kello Witherspoon, and Arthur
Mollett among some others. Okay, and it wasn't really until
the team got into the heart of their regular season
that it became apparent that the position of cornerback was
hardly a strength. Okay, So you're looking at cornerback now,
the Steelers have added Patrick Peterson, Joey Porter junior, Corey
(16:35):
Trice Junior as their main additions, and then Cam Sutton,
Kello Witherspoon, and Arthur Molett are no longer with the team.
So labeling one configuration at cornerback better or worse than
the other would just be speculating at this point because
(16:56):
we you know, they haven't even put on pads yet
or we haven't seen how they're going to be deployed utilized,
so you know, it doesn't really matter what I think
at this point, I really and having an opinion now,
you know, is a guess. But what I'm comfortable in
saying is the Steelers were not good enough at cornerback
(17:18):
in twenty twenty two, and they took steps during this
off season to make some changes in an attempt to
rectify that. So that's a plus. And then there's also
the plus who is not a cornerback, and that is
someone named Minka Fitzpatrick, in my opinion, the best free
safety in football. There is no you know, he's signed
(17:44):
to a long term contract, so there's no unknown qualities there.
So you know, he's twenty six going on twenty seven,
he's a three time first team All Pro. He's in
his prime as a player. I'm referring to manke if
it's Patrick, and you know, I would imagine that he
(18:04):
should be a better version of himself in twenty twenty three.
And if he is, then I think that, you know,
that trickles down to the rest of the defensive backfield,
which would be certainly include the cornerbacks. So the secondary
certainly has been set up to be better, whether it
(18:24):
actually you know, manifests itself or comes to fruition. We'll
have to see when the pads go on.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
John Knox from Nashville, Tennessee, do you think having Super
Bowl rings adds to the weight of a person's candidacy
for the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Lyn Swan didn't
have great numbers, but made a lot of highlight reel
catches and had four rings. Louis Lipps had slightly better
numbers but no rings.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, there's no question in my mind that Super Bowl
championships and the people on the Board of Selectors have
told me this. Championships super Bowl rings way in the
consideration when people are discussed in the room to be
(19:13):
elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. So, okay,
using the example John's example, specifically, Lynn Swan for super
Bowl rings and also was the MVP of Super Bowl ten.
So I remember the year that Swan ended up finally
getting elected. Ed Bouchett, who was the representative Pittsburgh representative
(19:40):
at the time, who was pleading his case for Swan,
pleading Swan's case. The thing that he said was Bouchett's
point to them was if all we're going to talk
about are Swan's numbers, then let's not have this anymore.
Let's just stab pablished numbers, and then if they don't
(20:02):
exceed these numbers, they don't get in. And if they
do exceed the numbers, let's put them in. Because if
that's if it's numbers are the thing, then it should
be just about the numbers. And let's not go through
this ten hour you know, debate about all these guys.
And that got through to enough people that it, you know,
flipped the scales a little bit and Swan got in.
(20:24):
So yes, championships and Super Bowl rings do impact someone's
ability to get elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Glenn Pass event from Tecumsa, Michigan asks a football rules question,
what is the difference between a forward lateral and a
shuttle pass? My understanding is that a shuttle pass is allowed,
but a forward lateral is not.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Okay, first of all, the correct term is shovel pass,
you know, like you use when you dig a hole because.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
The walls mind boggling there in confusion.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Right or mind bobbling, so okay, So a shovel pass.
And my understanding is that that's what it's called because
it's somewhat similar to the way the ball is delivered
you know, the shoveling motion, and usually it's a kind
of an underhanded flip of the football. And the the
(21:27):
other primary difference is, you know, a shovel pass is
delivered from behind the line of scrimmage. The quarterback takes
the snap either under center or in the shotgun, and
he shovels the ball forward to the eligible receiver running back,
tight end, wide receiver, whatever it might be. And all
(21:47):
of that happens behind the line of scrimmage. A forward
lateral Once the person holding the ball crosses the line
of scrimmage, if you throw with forward, flip it forward,
any of that, that's a forward lateral and that is
not legal.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And our final question today comes from Scott Randall from Conway,
South Carolina. After the draft and on paper it seems
as though the Steelers added some amazing draft choices. But
has the team done anything to upgrade our punter? The
important question at the end, Good job laughs, good organization.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, let me just say this to Scott, fans impression
of Presley Harvian the third is not the same as
the Steelers coaches evaluation of him. You know a lot
of fans will criticize Harvin or you know, downgrade him
(22:54):
in their own minds because of what they perceive, you know,
to be inconsistent perform Ormans, or you know, he doesn't
kick the ball far enough or whatever. But what the
Steelers want from their punter primarily is directional kicking. And
directional kicking is important because that's how the coverage is
(23:15):
set up. So if you know in the the fineness
the accuracy that they want with this is so specific,
you know, they may tell Presley Harvin, we want the
ball from the numbers to the sideline. I mean it's
(23:35):
not just kick it to the right of the center
of the field. I mean they want it in a
specific place because that's where the coverage assumes the ball
is going to go, and that's where the coverage flows.
And to show how good ad he hit this, how
good he is at this. Last season, the Steelers punt
(23:57):
team ranked second in the NFL by only allowing twenty
four punts to be returned for an average of five
point seven yards per return. That's second in the NFL.
The Los Angeles Chargers, Just to give you a comparison,
they led the NFL in that category by allowing only
nineteen puns to be returned for an average of three
(24:18):
point yards per return. So, you know, the Steelers were
second in the NFL in a category that the coaching
staff perceives to be probably the most significant punting statistic
that there is. They want where they want the kicks
(24:38):
to go, and the ability of the return team to
put its offense in a good starting field position and
put the Steelers defense, you know, by extension in a
bad starting field position. Okay, now, Presley Harvan, this summer
is going to have to beat back the competition. And
(25:00):
this year it's not just a camp leg I mean,
Braden Man is a guy who the Steelers claimed off waivers.
He is a legitimate NFL punter. So it's not something
that's rubber stamped like a lot of these specialist training
camp battles can end up being. But you know, Harvin
(25:22):
is he's not on it. He doesn't have one foot
out the door. I'm just telling you that the team
thinks way too highly of him. And here's another thing.
People laugh or make fun of me for this. Presley
Harvin is a really good holder. And you know last
year in that game against the Ravens, I believe the
(25:45):
game towards the end of the season in Baltimore, there
were some adverse weather conditions going on there, and Presley
Harvin did a really nice job on the last the
game would turned out to be the game winning field goal,
getting this getting it down for Boswell to kick the
game winning field goal, and do not, do not underestimate
(26:08):
that contribution to the team. I'm not saying that Boswell
is gonna, you know, start kicking and screaming if Presley
Harvin's roster spot turns up to be in danger or
you know, ends up being in danger. But they don't
cut that guy without considering the impact on the placekicker
(26:32):
because they are a tandem snapper bolder placekicker or not
a tandem that's tantem is too. They're a triumvirate that
has to work consistently together and seamlessly together. So I
don't believe that Harvin's job is in danger, especially if
(26:55):
he just continues doing what he has been doing lately.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Here's a quick question wrap up for you for me,
which position do you think most of the civilians think
is the easiest to just plug and play anybody yet
holder or long snapper because it's either one of those two.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
They think anybody can just do that.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, well that's I would probably say long snapper because
the assumption is that if you can snap the ball
in the shotgun formation, why can't.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You long snap. That's a very good answer.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And I saw Mike Webster do that poorly a lot
towards the end of his career. And Mike Webster is
a great, great player center, but that didn't make him
necessarily great at that.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
We will be back again next week.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Get your questions into labs right now, maybe you will
hear them on that episode, and then it will be
training camp.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It is right around the corner and we couldn't be
more excited for that.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
For Bob Labriola, I'm Tom Offerman, and we always appreciate
you guys listening to ask and answered
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