September 19, 2025 • 51 mins
In an encore presentation, we sit down with Dr. Colleen Hacker, Olympic mental performance consultant and author of Achieving Excellence: Mastering Mindset for Peak Performance in Sport and Life, to unpack the real tools champions use when it counts. No fluff here—just clear methods backed by science and forged in the fire of world-class competition.
We start by redefining confidence as a moving target and show how to build it by fixing your focus. If you’re replaying missed sessions, old results, or an opponent’s best times, your attention is fueling doubt. Dr. Hacker shares a practical reset: direct focus to controllables—race plans, turns, breath patterns, fueling windows—and let confidence follow. From there, we dig into the split most athletes miss: the brain that builds skill is not the brain that unleashes it. Training is analysis; performance is trust. Her race-day cue, “easy speed,” helps you shed tightness, stop micromanaging, and let your timing run.
We also get honest about pain. Instead of treating it like a threat, Dr. Hacker frames discomfort as the separator—the price of entry to personal records. You can make pain go away by backing off, but you’ll also forfeit your best. For masters athletes, we explore how wisdom, intrinsic motivation, and an appetite for science become competitive edges. We break down the four pillars of peak performance and show why you must train all four systematically to avoid leaving potential on the table. Expect actionable tools: breathing and mindfulness to balance arousal, imagery and self-talk to prime performance, and precise recovery strategies around sleep, hydration, and glycogen timing.
We wrap with a clear challenge: mental skills work when you do the work. If you’re ready to move from knowing to doing, this encore will give you the language, the structure, and the daily habits to get there. Follow the show, share this episode with a training partner, and leave a quick review to help more athletes find us. Want more? Grab Kelly’s new book False Cure and stay tuned for our 2026 reboot with fresh weekly conversations to keep your mojo strong.
Kelly's new book www.False-Cure.com
Email us at HELLO@ChampionsMojo.com. Opinions discussed are not medical advice, please seek a medical professional for your own health concerns.
Check out Kelly's Books at www.KellyPalace.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Hello friends, this is Kelly Palace, host of
Champions Mojo.
I'm taking a short break rightnow from recording new episodes
of Champions Mojo for twoexciting reasons.
First, I'm gonna be busylaunching my new book, False
Cure, which I've been writingfor the last year.
It's a whistleblowinginvestigative journalism book
(00:24):
about a denied health epidemic.
If you'd like more informationon that, just check out the show
notes.
But the second and mostcompelling reason I'm on a break
is that here at Champions Mojo,we're preparing for the January
2026 reboot of powerful newweekly episodes with expert
(00:45):
guest interviews, inspiringtopics, and tips to take your
mindset, health, and personalperformance to the next level.
We will be announcing someincredible partnerships, and I
guarantee that what we have instore for you will empower you
to keep your mojo strong in thenew year.
(01:05):
While I'm prepping all thisgreat stuff, I wanted to kick
off our Encore series with someof the most powerful
conversations we've ever had.
Today's episode is with Dr.
Colleen Hacker.
I've personally listened to thisepisode at least five times.
Her mindset tools for bothsports and life change the way I
(01:28):
think and perform.
They will help make you achampion.
My hope is that if this is yoursecond time listening to this
episode, you'll take away evenmore insight and motivation.
Or if it's your first time,you'll love it as much as I do.
So settle in and enjoy thisencore presentation in its
(01:48):
entirety with the brilliant Dr.
Colleen Hacker.
It's truly an honor to have Dr.
Colleen Hacker, who is theauthor of her new book,
Achieving Excellence MasteringMindset for Peak Performance in
Sport and Life.
As a certified mentalperformance consultant and
(02:09):
member of the U.S.
Olympic Committee SportsPsychology Registry, she has
served on six Olympic Gamestaffs, both winter and summer,
and more than a dozen worldchampionships teams working with
Major League Baseball, the NFL,the PGA, the LPGA, Chrome
Soccer, USA swimming, yay, crew,speed skating, track and field,
(02:32):
and tennis, just to name a few.
And in her day job, Dr.
Hacker is a professor in theDepartment of Kinesiology at
Pacific Lutheran University.
Maria, today we're going to getto talk sports psychology, one
of our favorite subjects.
What more can you tell us aboutDr.
Hacker?
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Well, ESPNW named Dr.
Hacker is one of the 30 women inthe country who changed the way
sports are played.
And she's been inducted intoseven different halls of fame,
either as an athlete or coach.
Her strategies for performanceare sought by corporations,
business groups, professional,and Olympic sports team, and
both print and media.
Her works appeared in the NewYork Times, the Washington Post,
(03:14):
CNN, and ESPN, just to name afew.
And we're just delighted.
There's so much to talk about.
Thank you very much for beinghere, Dr.
Hacker.
It's an honor to have you on.
Welcome to Champions Mojo.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Right back at you, Kelly and Maria Champions Mojo.
Like, what a title.
Let's do this.
It really is a privilege to joinyou and your listeners on your
pod.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Thank you.
Yes.
So we do want to ask you somequestions that we know our
listeners will be like, oh mygosh, we have the Olympic
consultant for mental skillshere with us.
What could we ask her?
So before we do those questions,can you just tell us about your
new book, Achieving Excellence: Mastering Mindset for Peak (03:56):
undefined
Performance in Sport and Life?
This is my new Bible.
It is unbelievablycomprehensive.
There is nothing one couldwonder about mindset for sports
and performance in life.
And we always talk about on thisshow, Dr.
Hacker, how sports mimics life.
(04:16):
But tell us about this new book,how it came about, and let's go
from there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
First of all, I have to comment on this little phrase
that you use.
We love to talk about the mentalskills.
We love to talk about sportspsychology.
I would say you love to do thatbecause you cannot compete in
sport without attention to thatpart of the game.
You can talk about Iron Man, youcould talk about distance
(04:43):
swimming, you could talk aboutsprint swims.
And I will argue till my lastbreath that those six inches
between our ears might be themost significant real estate
that we're going to face in thecompetitive cauldron.
So there's a reason you talkabout it because the psychology
of excellence is inextricablylinked to the competitive
(05:05):
environment.
Now, to the new book, thank youfor those kind words.
And I want to assure thelisteners, I didn't write that
promo.
That was extemporaneous fromyou.
And you actually hit on what wetried to do.
This is my second book, 20 yearsin between the two.
But this book really is theculmination of my career in this
(05:29):
sphere.
And it reads that way.
It is written primarily forsport.
There's no question.
But the folks at Human Kinetics,the publishing company, said, we
want it for high-achievingcorporate athletes.
We want it in sport, in anycompetitive domain, whether it's
youth to intercollegiate toOlympic to Masters.
(05:54):
And if you heard that in thepages, like when you read it, if
you hear that attention, we werevery purposeful about that.
And there's tons of books inthis marketplace.
I'm aware of that.
And generally they they are oneor the other.
They're like workbooky kinds ofthings, like here's a worksheet,
(06:14):
do this, work on this, here'squestions to ask.
And you don't have anyunderstanding of what that
recommendation is based on.
Both as a speaker and a writer,everything I do is
scientifically based, it'sevidence-based, it is grounded
in the literature.
And then I try to speak andwrite as though it's not, if
(06:36):
that makes sense.
Like I try to translate thatjargon and that rather esoteric
kind of data and make itaccessible and practical.
We talk about what each topicis, why it's important, examples
in sport, in life, and inbusiness to which they can be
(06:59):
applied.
And then every single chaptercontains elements that say,
okay, make it your own now.
This isn't cookie cutter.
This isn't one size fits all.
This book allows each reader,each athlete, each high
performer to overlay theircareers where they are right now
(07:22):
with the exercises and elementsin the book.
So it's been very intentional.
I'm not going to be all shucksabout it.
I'm I'm proud of what we did.
The reviews and the responsesfrom the folks I care most
about, and that is the athletesand coaches and organizations,
has been remarkably positive.
SPEAKER_02 (07:43):
Yeah, it is a true masterpiece.
And I I have been a collector ofbooks in this genre for my
entire life.
My library is, I've probably got25 books, and I have not read
the entire thing, but I amabsolutely thrilled.
This is just it, it is a truemasterpiece.
So what we wanted to do is whilewe have you here, the guru, the
(08:09):
brain trust of mastering ourmindset, when you deal with the
U.S.
Olympic swimming team, andpre-recording, we talked about
the fact that we've had manyOlympic champions on our show,
and you've probably worked withmany of them.
What would you say is a commonproblem or a common issue that
swimmers tend to have with theirmindset?
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Well, it's a great question.
And just one slight correction.
USA swimming often hires onemental skills coach for the
entire team.
I am hired privately andindividually by Olympic
swimmers.
So they have a team mentalskills coach.
And then when you get at theupper levels, they want their
(08:53):
own person.
I don't know how else to say it.
USA swimming has a great trackrecord, hires wonderful people.
But I have been very fortunateto be hired from Olympic
individual swimmers.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I don't know if I'm going to surprise you two or
not.
And I would love to hear youcomment on this.
When people hear Olympians, whenpeople hear gold medalists, when
people hear the word Olympicchampions, they don't expect
what I'm about to say.
One of the common threads is theissue of confidence.
(09:26):
And they're like, but butthey're world record holders,
but they're Olympic champions,but they're in the top three in
their discipline, in the work.
Confidence?
And there's a wonderful RobertHughes quote that goes something
like this perfect confidence isreserved for the least talented.
It's their consolation for them.
(09:47):
I love that.
There's wisdom in that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Truly greats have exceptionally high standards.
They don't assume because theyswam well in preliminaries or in
Munich that they're going toswim.
So what does that have to dowith the finals?
They understand that each momenttheir training is on the line,
(10:12):
their approach is on the line.
And technically, what theirapproach is in the early prelims
may change when they get to thefinals, right?
In terms of conserving energy,in terms of not giving too much
away in their race strategy.
So the truly greats, not thewannabe greats, not the
(10:32):
hangar-arounders in the engines,I would say to you that the
confidence road is always underconstruction for those folks.
They are either trying to get itback because they've lost it
after a poorer event or a poormeet, or they're trying to
maintain it for a longer periodof time throughout a competition
(10:55):
or in the run-up to a majorevent, or they're trying to just
eat out a little bit more.
Most of us realize that ourswimming changes depending on
our confidence.
I hate to say that bluntly.
Yes, yardage.
Yes, nutrition, yes, sleep, yes,hydration, yes, elite
(11:16):
performance is multifaceted.
But confidence, individualconfidence, which varies from
time to time, from athlete toathlete, from race to race, from
a competition to a competition,from site to site, is incredibly
variable.
I don't know if that surprisesyou.
I would be curious, but I wouldsay confidence is a recurring
(11:38):
thread throughout a quant,throughout a four-year time
period.
What say you, experts?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I am sure you're correct.
And certainly that's been truein my own athletic career and
professional career.
Confidence seems to come and go,and sometimes you feel like a
poser.
But I guess since we work withmasters, our audience is
masters, and we're both mastersathletes, I would ask you: has
that been your experience witholder athletes and older
(12:08):
professionals that they also arestruggling with confidence?
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, that's a great distinction because the
demographics of the athletechanges in the course of our
lifetime.
What we're chasing in terms ofrecords or achievements, what
our approach is to training andto competitions, is not fixed in
stone and it's not linear.
It changes, it can changethroughout the course of a
(12:35):
lifetime.
One of the aspects of master'slevel athletes, and I deal with
master's level athletes in anumber of sports, and I'm
speaking in generalities, whichcarries it its own risk.
There is a wisdom and anappreciation to the process
(12:56):
infinitely more than in, forlack of a better way to say it,
prime of their lives, athletes,they're like, I'm snapping my
fingers now.
They want it now, it'simmediate.
They rise and fall on the lastperformance.
It is a rocket ship of up andcrash and up and crash.
(13:16):
Master's level swimmers, Ireally will stand by that.
There's a wisdom, there's apatience, there's a recognition,
and I would argue, at least inmy master's level athletes, a
real respect and appreciationfor the training and the process
and the experience.
The intrinsic motivation tendsto be consistently higher and a
(13:42):
driving force.
They're not trying to get theirnext endorsement.
They're not trying to rise andfall on the next gig.
This is about somethinggenerally personal, meaningful,
intrinsically valuable.
I want to see if I'm capable ofthis.
(14:03):
I want to see how far I can pushme to my capabilities rather
than getting caught up in thecomparison game of you, me.
I don't mean to indicate thatresults don't matter, they do.
I don't mean to indicate that Idon't know that I'm fourth and
you're third.
I probably do.
(14:24):
But my focus, my primary, andagain, I'm speaking in
generalities, is about theprocess, the value, the goals,
mastering, no pun intended,mastering the craft, trying to
be a little bit better.
And for masters, again, with myclients, for me myself, I'm
(14:46):
still running marathons, havemarathons.
There's a problem in sort of, Idon't know, I'll say it how I
do.
I'm the oldest I've ever been,and I'm busting it out.
There's something you generallysee in the life trajectory.
You go one way or another, youdon't just stay on a plateau.
And so there's again thisintrinsic pride of, I just had
(15:08):
another birthday and I'm fast.
I just birthday and I justcranked it out.
It is so powerful andcompelling.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
So I love master's level athletes.
It's it's the same, but it'sdifferent.
That's how I'd say it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
And I do too.
SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
I want to give you my response to confidence for a
master's athlete.
So yeah, I feel like that whatyou've said as a master's
athlete, many masters athleteshave different pedigree.
I was an Olympic trialsqualifier as a young swimmer,
went to college on a fullscholarship, continued swimming
masters, now swim at a highlevel where I go to a meet, I'm
(15:49):
trying to win a national title,get a number one time, set a
world record or a nationalrecord.
That's my trajectory.
I swim with the range of peoplewho are swimming in their first
meet.
They're afraid to dive off ablock.
So we all have different levelsof confidence.
But I, as this master's athletethat's trying to achieve
(16:10):
something special for my agegroup, for like all the history
that we talk about it.
And the wisdom, it doesn't seemto make me any more confident.
Maybe it's just a work inprogress, like you said.
You doubt that you're ready, youdoubt that you've had the best.
So I love that confidence iswhether you're swimming at a
(16:33):
high level, whether you're abrand new swimmer, whether
you're an Olympic level.
So let's talk about thatconfidence.
And do you think that it appliesto comparison?
So when I'm lacking confidence,I might stand up and say, ooh,
I'm swimming against swimmer Aand swimmer B.
And oh my gosh, they've had toptimes above me this season, and
(16:56):
I'm scared of them.
How do you find that comparisonhas to do with confidence?
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (17:03):
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
And let me willfully choose to be repetitive.
I want to come back and say theconfidence road is always under
construction.
And that might sound like somecute little phrase, but there's
power in understanding thatbecause I find that people are
continually frustrated by howthey're cop, you know, I'm
(17:25):
confident wines and my cop.
It's this nagging issue.
And it's like we don't mow thelawn and go, I mowed the lawn,
that's it for the rest of mylife.
We expect to mow the lawn again.
We don't wash the dishes onMonday and go, whoa, thank God
those dishes are done forever.
We normalize repetitiveness andthat important things need to be
(17:48):
done and done again and doneagain.
And then all of a sudden we getto confidence.
Not only is our confidencefalling, but then we're
frustrated over that fact.
And what I'm trying to do isnormalize it by saying the
confidence road is always underconstruction.
So I want to say that.
Secondly, and all of theserequire some explanation.
(18:10):
I'll try to do it in the mostpithy way that I can, but
confidence follows focus.
I'm going to say that again andthen explain it.
Confidence follows focus.
Athletes want to know how do Iget confident?
How do I keep confidence?
How do I stay there longer?
And what I say to them, thebeginning is to understand that
(18:32):
confidence follows focus.
So that when we are, I'm puttingin air quotes, when we're
lacking confidence, you knowwhat we're thinking about?
We're thinking about the setsthat we didn't get in.
We're thinking about the days wehad to skip because we had a
cold or we had, oh, thatshoulder injury that's flaring
up again.
Do I train?
Do I take a day off?
(18:52):
And then that messes with her.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Is when you lack confidence, Ican't say it's 100% of the time,
but it's up there.
It's an overwhelming majority.
What did I want to do is peelback the layers and say, what
are you focusing on?
What are you thinking about?
And chances are when yourconfidence dips, you're thinking
(19:13):
about how you haven't swung wellin that city before, or in that
pool before, or at that time ofthe year before.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Or at that meet, or you didn'tmatch up well against that
particular swimmer before.
Well, that was then.
This is now.
Do now well.
And we carry that baggage,literally baggage.
(19:39):
Imagine if I put a 10-poundweighted vest on your body and
say, go get them, tiger.
That's what you're swimming inright now.
And you'd go, Why on earth wouldI swim in a weighted vest?
But we do that psychologicallyand emotionally by carrying test
baggage into the presentperformance.
(20:00):
And then my phrase is we tend toswim heavy.
We tend to swim heavy.
I want to say another commonissue that is related to
confidence and related to focus.
Athletes don't realize, andagain, I struggle with do these
phrases make sense withoutexplanation or how much
explanation?
(20:21):
But athletes, by and large, amajority of their time in their
sport, they benefit the processof putting skill in, the process
of putting speed in, the processof putting technique in,
whatever it might be, stroke,turn, start, finish.
(20:42):
That process requires effort,thinking, repetition, attention
to detail.
Not yet, do it again, not yet,do it again, not yet, do it
again.
And loving that process.
But the process of pulling outthat talent, pulling out that
(21:03):
work is entirely different.
That's when we don't want tothink, we don't want to analyze,
we don't want to critique momentby moment.
And so there's this trickylittle dichotomy that I have
benefited.
I'm as good as I am because ofmy attention to detail and I
(21:24):
sweat everything and nothing'sever good enough.
And I'd say, good on you.
Exactly.
So put excellence in, itrequires that.
But to bring excellence, thenyou have to trust your training.
You have to let go and trustyour training.
Okay, so let me give you anexample.
And I won't tell you who.
(21:45):
I hope that our listeners won'tbe able to guess who because I
want to protect this.
This is a multiple gold medalswimmer that I worked with prior
to a particular Olympic Games.
Remember, I said the process ofbringing skill out, the
performance element is almostthe opposite of what went into
it.
And so she's swimming.
(22:06):
And so we try harder when wetrain.
We try harder.
When you try harder when you'reswimming, you're tighter.
Timing is off.
So the phrase that we use forher is easy speed.
We didn't want her to swim at ahundred percent.
Do you guys get what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Let's not swim at a hundred.
(22:28):
Absolutely.
Tight shoulders make slow times.
So we wanted her to have thisfeeling of easy speed.
And again, now I'm whispering.
Not because we didn't want towin a gold medal, not because
she didn't want to swim fast,not because she didn't want to
get a PR.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
But running for it, minutelymonitoring her stroke, her turn,
(22:55):
her split.
That's not the process ofbringing skill out.
That's the time to let go andtrust your training.
This is a great point to askabout pain.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
So yeah.
Love, love, love.
And easy speed is a term inswimming and tapering that we
always talk about.
When you taper and you'reproperly prepared and you're in
the right place, you just easyspeed come.
So that is a term that I thinkmany elite swimmers know and I
love.
And that's a good trigger forwhen you dive in.
(23:28):
Easy speed.
But for those of us like Mariaand I, and this would be one of
the questions that we'relistening to that we talk about
a lot because we do have a lotof triathletes, so endurance
athletes.
The thing that freaks me outmore than lack of confidence,
more than anything, is when I'mstanding behind the block, and I
know many people do it, andMaria's on her bike, ready to go
(23:50):
for 12 hours, and I'm about toswim a mile, I am afraid of the
pain.
I literally fear that painbecause I know, yes, I can have
easy speed on the first 800 of a1500, but when I hit the halfway
point, it's a different story.
If I'm on the threshold of thataerobic anaerobic threshold, I
(24:14):
have to maintain that pace tohold the pace to set the record.
It's just excruciating.
What strategies could you sharewith us that those of us that
are afraid of the pain coulduse?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Respectfully, I would argue that without the
pain, you would not be amaster's level swimmer at the
highest level.
I would respectfully argue thatyou love the pain and you hate
the pain.
True.
That which we achieve tooeasily, we esteem too lightly.
(24:50):
You guys feel me on this?
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Oh yes.
So there's lots of differentways.
You understand phraseology, butlove the wind, love the rain,
love the hills.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
You can't go in fearing the hills, fearing I
need it to be perfect, right?
It the weather and the course orwhatever it is, whether it's
cycling or running, swimming, Iguess it would be open water
versus a controlled environment.
But love the wind, love therain, love the hills.
That's a metaphor for the painis coming.
(25:23):
And the pain is the separator.
The pain is the separator,right?
Are you willing to endure?
And now I'm gonna go back.
This is what I love about trulyauthentic conversations.
In my mind, we come back to oneof my earlier answers.
It's personal, it's intrinsic.
(25:43):
Nobody's making you do that.
I'll tell you how to stop thepain, Kelly.
Here's how you make the painstop.
Go slower, choose shorter races.
I was a national level inlineskater, like where you're down
low, all quads.
You guys with me on this?
Yeah.
Here's how I can make the paingo away in a billionth of a
(26:05):
second.
Stand up.
I have goosebumps right nowbecause I would argue that pain
is a hook for you.
That pain is a hook.
You hate it and you love it.
You know that it's a separator.
And you're saying, yes, I'mwilling to go there.
And I would argue to be at thelevel that you guys are, not
(26:27):
only are you saying, yes, I'mwilling to go there, I'm willing
to endure longer and deeper thanyou.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
I wish everybody could see Dr.
Hacker's face.
I just gave the most You look tothe left and to her right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Adorable look to the left, look to the right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:49):
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
If you remove the pain, my hunch is that you'd
find a different achievementdomain.
I think it's inextricably linkedto the pride and the challenge
and the difficulty of theevents.
Because frankly, you could makeit go away instantly.
You're choosing not to.
(27:11):
Embrace that.
That's your superpower.
That's your superpower.
I know in advance that this isgonna push me to my limit, and
I'm gonna want to quit.
And I know I won't.
And I know I have trained sothat I don't.
You understand what I'm saying?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
That's beautiful.
I want to build on that fearquestion with a different, maybe
kind of fear for mastersathletes, which is as we
continue to challenge ourselves,my family is always saying,
Stop.
You're gonna hurt yourself.
And sure enough, I do hurtmyself.
I overdo it or I try somethingnew.
I'm challenging myself to learnnew swimming skills right now,
(27:53):
also trying to learn some newbalance skills as I'm in my 60s.
And yet there's risk associatedwith that.
There's risk of injury, there'srisk of maybe long-term
disability.
What do you say about that?
Like, how do we walk that lineof the real fear of hurting
myself, I suppose, is thesimplest way to put it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
But I want to add embarrassment to that.
And embarrassment.
And embarrassment because that'swhat I hear from people.
I'm embarrassed to go to a meetand dive off the block funny, or
hurt myself, or be laughed at,or get last.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
What those two questions have in common is
fear, but the origins and thesolutions are, I would go two
different directions with that.
So I don't have a one answer forboth of your questions.
But one of the things, it's it'sa little bit like what I said
about achieving excellence.
You cannot know about science,but it doesn't make it go away.
(28:50):
You cannot know aboutphysiology, but it doesn't make
it go away.
You cannot know about musclerepair and the different timing
of nerve repair versus musclerepair versus joint repair.
You cannot know any of thatstuff, and it doesn't mean it
goes away.
And so I'm gonna go back to whatI said earlier.
(29:12):
To me, and again, do I deal witha ton of masters athletes?
No.
Who are my clients?
I'm just owning it.
They tend to be the best of thebest in their craft, right?
So I have to own that.
But these folks, as a result,intrinsic, personal, now they're
studying the science ofrefueling, of hydration, of
(29:36):
listen, I have a meet in twoweeks, but this muscle is going
to repair on its own time.
And so what I'm saying is, mostmasters athletes that I'm
working with, the breadth oftheir knowledge about
psychology, about physiology,about their own body.
(30:00):
The folks that can stay in itand in it at high levels for a
long time, they are tuned intothe science.
They are tuned into the science.
Where younger folks, for lack ofa better way to say it, they
have handlers.
They have handlers that tellthem what to do.
They moderate the load.
They've just got an entourage ofsports scientists.
(30:23):
Most masters athletes are theirown entourage.
And so, Maria, to your point,there's a joke, show me an elite
athlete and I'll show you aninjured athlete.
Well, there's some truth tothat.
Love that.
And our ligaments don't have thesame elasticity, the same
recovery speed in our 21s.
(30:46):
Now, I might be a 70-year-oldmaster's athlete who has the
physiology of a 25-year-old, butnot an 18-year-old.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, in other words, I'm anoutlier in my age cohort, but at
some point, physiology wins.
It's science.
We don't live forever, right?
(31:06):
And so I go back to earliercomments.
There's a wisdom and a patienceand a personal control and
personal agency that I see inmaster swimmers, masters
athletes that I don't see in theyounger cohort.
They go to somebody and say, fixit.
Here's the event.
(31:28):
This is what I have to havehappen.
And they're willing to doshort-term fixes and they're
willing to cede power toexternal sources.
So, Maria, what I would say toyou is, and I get it, I don't
know this, but if I actuallyasked you to talk about your
physiological knowledge journey,I would suspect you'd say you
(31:51):
started here and you're here.
Like you know things now that 20years ago you didn't attend to.
And I would argue that thescience is changing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Right, it is.
SPEAKER_00 (32:02):
So what was recommended?
I've had ACL surgery.
I have a really dear friend whowas on the Canadian national
basketball team.
Her ACL was career-ending.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Now, this is decades ago.
Right.
But I've run marathons and 50half marathons since my ACL.
She's not running across thestreet to get the mail.
(32:25):
So science is changing,technology is changing, our
knowledge, our scientificknowledge base is exploding.
And I would argue that master'slevel more than others are
availing themselves of thatknowledge.
These are aware, these arevoracious readers, these are
(32:47):
consumers of quality.
And to me, that's the ideal.
Most people would say, I wish Iwas who I was now when I was in
my 20s.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like, oh my gosh, if I hadthis, all of the this is that I
just enumerated, right?
The tactical awareness, thetechnical expertise, the
(33:09):
physiological awareness.
There's four pillars ofswimming, right?
The technical, the tactical,physiological, psychological.
Master swimmers, by and large,are tuned into all four pillars.
Younger, super talented people,they think the answer is go
fast.
Go fast and win.
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Yeah.
So what you're, I think I hearyou saying it to mitigate the
risks as you age, just learnwhat you gotta learn.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Learn, learn, learn.
Not knowing the science doesn'tmake it go away.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Correct, correct, right?
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
There's a reason Kelly said I have 25 mental
skills training.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Because she's emblematic of what I'm talking
about.
I'm a voracious reader.
Look at how you're adding.
Uh if I'm hearing you, you'readding either new elements to
your swimming or new technicalchanges, whether it's hand
position or kick or bodyposition or entry.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
Frankly, I'm learning to swim.
I'm learning to swim the wholething.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
This far into your life and your career.
That's the beauty of master'slevel.
I have a phrase that says, ifyou're green, you're growing,
and if you're ripe, you'rerotting.
I I heard you say that before.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
I'd love that.
I totally love that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
I want to be green and growing, and I want to work
with athletes who are green andgrowing.
And don't get me wrong.
Look, I wish you well, butthere's champions that are ripe
and rotting.
I don't know if you know thisabout me, but I have 12 world
records.
I don't know if you know thisabout me, but I got 10 gold
medals.
I don't know if you know.
Like I'm good.
I'm riping and rotting, greenand growing.
(34:46):
The edge.
I want people who love itbecause of its uncertainty,
because of its pain, because Idon't know if I can, but I'm
here for it.
There's something about thathook that keeps us coming back.
If we knew it, I think it wouldlose some of its shine.
(35:07):
If it was guaranteed andpredictable, I think it would
lose some of its shine to thebest.
Some best can quite predictable.
Right?
They tricked knowing.
It's comfortable, it's familiar.
Nothing like that.
I'm not disparaging that.
I'm just saying, unless we'rewilling to go to the edge of our
(35:31):
capabilities, we literally don'tknow what's possible.
And there's some people thatrevel in that unknown.
I love, love, love that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
And before we go to the last question, can you break
down a little bit for MasterSummer's technique, tactical
physiology, and psychology?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Yeah, I take that for granted.
And Kelly, you're so wise and agood listener to follow up.
I would say this about cycling,I would say this about running,
any sport, but let's keep it toswimming.
What I'm about to say applies toevery sport at every level, but
the details are different.
But now I'm just going to useswimming as the model.
(36:17):
Swimming is comprised of what Iwould call four pillars of
swimming.
And before I get into each oneof them, unless you are
consistently, systemically, andappropriately training all four
pillars concurrently, what Iwill tell you, athletes, is
(36:38):
you're leaving some of yourpotential on the table.
You will never know.
It has to be all four pillars,scientifically, systemically,
and consistently.
It's not one and done.
It's not this month, it's notearly in the season.
You get what I'm saying.
Okay, so what are the fourpillars?
Swimming is comprised of thetechnical aspects of swimming.
(36:59):
And I kind of alluded to those.
That's how, so broadly, how isbreaststroke different from
freestyle?
How is butterfly different frombackstroke?
But then if we looked withinfreestyle, it's how high I bring
my elbow out of the water, myentry point, my finger
placement, my kick speed, uh, myrhythm, my body position in the
(37:23):
water, my breathing patterns,when I breathe, the side that I
right, the technical aspectsthat make swimming swimming and
not basketball.
Okay, tactics.
Now we're getting into atactical approach to training
and a tactical approach tocompetition.
(37:44):
Let me make it simple andswimming, just so this is a
tactical example of swimming.
Do I go out fast and try to holdon?
Or do I go out consistent andthen kick you out of the finish
at the end?
You have to worry about me.
Oh, she's right on my heels andI know she's a fast finisher.
(38:05):
Oh crap.
I mean, I would love to do thatto my opponent, right?
So tactics are your racestrategy, your race plan.
Tactics are what I alluded toearlier without using that
terminology.
How will I approach thepreliminaries, the semifinals,
the finals?
How will I approach the Munichtry or the Munich versus
(38:28):
nationals versus worlds, right?
You have different tacticalapproaches to different events
at different times.
Tactics and training are when doI go high mileage, high yardage?
When do I build on strength?
How am I weaving in flexibility?
I know that sounds likephysiological, but I'm talking
about when and amount andtiming.
(38:50):
Those are all tactical aspectsof swimming.
Physiological, again, withoutusing the term, I've already
commented on them.
So I want the listener to say,oh yeah, that's what she was
talking about.
What are physiological elements?
People think right away,physiology, they think strength,
anaerobic power, aerobic power.
(39:12):
Okay, the obvious, right?
Strength, fitness, flexibility,anaerobic, aerobic max VO2,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I shouldn't say blah, blah,blah.
Let me backtrack.
That's the low-hanging fruit.
But let's expand physiology,sleep, wake patterns, napping,
not napping, how long to nap,hydration, what to drink, when
(39:38):
to drink, the timing, right?
When are we restoring ourglycogen stores?
You know, there's a window whenour muscles are going, gimme,
gimme, gimme.
Allow me some food.
You missed that window.
You missed your window.
So in between preliminaries andsemifinals and right?
So it's hydration, fuel,nutrient dense, the right
(39:59):
nutrients at the right time inthe right proportion.
And Yohoo, there's generalguidelines, but those are
individual, we're biochemicallyunique.
And our biochemical needs in our70s are different from our 50s
and are different from our 20s.
So here we go.
We have people doing at allphases of their life what they
(40:22):
used to do because it used to besuccessful.
You see what I'm saying?
So sleep, hydration, fuel, allthe fitness, that's
physiological.
Mental skills are just likephysical skills.
You're not born with them.
There's no DNA like blue eyes,brown eyes.
There's no DNA for height.
(40:42):
There's no DNA for fat storagelocations called, thank you, who
contributed the DNA to my body,right?
Genes will out, physiology willsout.
But psychological skills are, weknow them, we know how they
affect performance.
And no matter where you are onthe spectrum of mental skills,
(41:06):
whatever you have, the goal isto develop more or greater
control.
So it's issues like what we didbefore the podcast, somebatic
control, breathing, mindfulness,getting sympathetic and
parasympathetic systems inbalance and recognizing when one
is out of balance.
(41:27):
It's self-talk, it's cognitiverestructuring, it's imagery,
it's goal setting, it'sconfidence.
Just like I could say bicepcurls, tricep extensions, leg
extensions, leg curls, gastro,toe raises, right?
We have all these different bodyparts.
That's the same thing.
(41:47):
Mental skills are just likephysical skills.
Yes, each of us are born at at acertain baseline, but can we get
stronger?
The answer is yes.
Each of us have a baselinespeed, but can we get faster?
Yes.
Same thing with mental skills.
They are skills.
(42:09):
So if you want to improve anyskill, what do you do?
You identify it, you target it,you practice it appropriately.
It's that simple.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
Love it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
So to put a bow and wrap it around this whole
conversation, I think three ofus sitting here as elite
athletes would say that even ifwe had a hundred percent
tactical, technical, andphysiological, if we were zero
on the mind, none of thosemattered.
(42:40):
None of those mattered.
If you were A plus in yourtraining, your tactics and your
technique, and you were zero inyour mind.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
Okay, that's we will never know how good you could
be, and you will never know howgood you can be.
Well, what do we act out likewhen I'm on site with athletes?
Like I'm sitting on afour-legged chair right now.
I don't know, you guys areprobably on wheels or whatever.
But just think of this.
And and I'm not trying to beclever, just literally do this.
(43:11):
There's four legs on my chair.
Can I balance?
And you can tell the listenersthat I'm trying to.
I'm balancing on three of thoselegs right now.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
Am I comfortable?
Is this good posture?
Can I maintain this position forhours at a time?
So the chair has four legs for areason.
That's what provides thefoundation, the platform.
Can you swim without attentionto the psychological dimension?
Yeah, you could swim, but not atyour best, not at the edges of
(43:43):
your capability.
And I will tell you, you willnever know how good you could be
unless you have an equal andconcomitant investment in the
psychological skills.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
Great.
SPEAKER_02 (43:55):
Yeah, that is a great place to wrap this, Maria.
You want to ask the lastquestion?
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
I have so many more millions of questions.
One of which is like, how do youhave time for all this training?
But we will have to have youback for that.
The last question is (44:07):
Is there anything else that you would
like to say that we haven'tspecifically asked that you
think is really important?
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
Well, I think you've been wonderful hosts, and I
think you've asked the practicalquestions or some of the
practical questions thatathletes would be curious about.
I think my only point would beto say this, and this is from
decades of an investment in theprofessional literature and the
science of mental skillstraining, is this.
(44:48):
They work.
Are you willing to do the work?
That chasm between knowing anddoing is a critical chasm of
excellence.
It it separates the accomplishedfrom the pretenders, the
accomplishments from sub-elite.
We know what to do.
If you ask the average American,do you know foods that you
(45:10):
should eat more of?
Yes.
Do you need foods?
What food should you avoid?
Yes.
Okay, raise your hand if you dothat.
Most days, oh, it's not knowingwhat to do.
You get no benefit for knowingwhat to do.
The only benefit occurs when youdo what you know.
It has to be action-based.
SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
And if you have any question about what to do, get
Dr.
Hacker's book and it's laid outline by line.
SPEAKER_02 (45:36):
If anybody has questions, it's in the book.
It is definitely there.
So Dr.
Hacker.
Thank you, Bill.
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you for spendingthis time with us.
Our listeners are going to getso much value out of this.
We really appreciate you.
Very grateful.
Bye.
You're going to take care.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
Stay tuned for the takeaways.
(45:58):
Well, Maria, Dr.
Colleen Hacker, what asuperstar.
For me personally, I might havegotten the most that I've ever
gotten out of an interview.
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Yeah.
She's an expert.
And she was so full ofenthusiasm for her subject
matter.
It was great.
I wish we could have talked toher all day.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Yeah, she's so passionate and so professional
and scientific and educated, andjust it's it was amazing.
So my first takeaway, and I feellike the main uh learning point
for me of the whole interviewwas the four pillars that we
need to succeed.
And she specified them formaster swimmers or for swimmers,
(46:39):
which is uh the technical partof being a great swimmer, which
we know is the stroke mechanics,et cetera.
The tactical part, which isseason planning, race planning,
the physiological part, which isam I getting the right sleep?
Am I strength training?
Am I training my anaerobicsystem, my aerobic system, my
(47:02):
flexibility, my nutrition, allthose things physiologically?
And then of course, Hunger'smain expertise is the fourth
pillar, which is thepsychological part.
And we rounded this up with thefact that yeah, you can be an A
plus on all three of those firstof the four pillars.
But like she said, if your chairhas four legs and you're not
(47:24):
using that fourth one or any ofthe four, then you're not going
to succeed.
So technique, tactical, thephysiological part, and the
psychological part.
And then you said your firsttakeaway had to do with how
these are actually applied.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
Yeah, I loved how she said this.
She uses words so well, but shesaid these four skills have to
be applied consistently,systematically, appropriately,
and scientifically.
And that was really speaking tomy earlier question, which was
how, as masters, athletes, do wekeep from hurting ourselves,
getting injured?
Or, you know, how do we perform?
(48:00):
And she said, basically, yougotta know the science.
If you're gonna be successful,you've got to apply these four
things by knowing the latestscience, and it's different now
than it was 20 years ago.
And it's different for a60-year-old than it is for a
40-year-old or a 20-year-old.
So I love that.
So you gotta take responsibilityfor knowing your stuff if you're
gonna continue to improve.
SPEAKER_02 (48:21):
Yes, wonderful.
My second of many takeaways,like you said, I think you have
four pages of notes.
I have three pages of notes.
The one that just hits home forendurance athletes is that fear
of the pain factor.
I I still believe staying in thepresent moment, not fearing the
pain, is a great way, whichwe've talked about a lot.
But to have a new tool in mytool bag of dealing with pain
(48:44):
was her approach.
Her strategy is that, hey, thepain is, I hate the pain, I love
the pain, it's gonna rain, thereare gonna be hills.
So embrace that pain and know,and this is the key for me that
really clicked is that the painis what makes you have a peak
(49:05):
performance.
The pain is what makes you gofaster.
If you slow down, you're notgonna have a good time.
So yeah, the pain is anindicator of, hey, I'm going
fast, I'm gonna have a goodtime.
And the final part of this isthat the pain is what can
separate us from thecompetition.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
I love that.
And yeah, which she said, youwant the pain to go away, just
stop.
Yeah, I love that.
That's so good.
And we know that.
You and I have said that to eachother.
We're willing to endure pain anddiscomfort, maybe more than
other people.
That's what makes us achievewhat we can achieve.
So I I love that.
I love that.
We're beasts.
Yeah, we're beasts beasts, andthat's what we have to keep
(49:44):
telling ourselves.
Yeah, so the last takeaway forme, and I'd heard her say this
in another podcast, and I justlove it.
So appropriate for older people.
If you're green, you're growing,and if you're ripe, you're
rotting.
So basically, it's okay to behere.
I am learning, really learningto swim.
That means I'm green.
(50:05):
That means I'm not gonna do itright.
That means it's gonna beembarrassing, but I am growing
and I'm learning new stuff, andthat's good.
And I'd rather be growing thanripe and rotting.
SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Great for master's athletes.
And even if you are anexperienced long-term master's
swimmer, so somebody like mewho's been master swimming for
35 years, I'm taking away beinggreen for me, is doing new
things and swimming that Ihaven't done.
So recently I've been trying tobreathe every third.
I've always, my entire lifebreathed every stroke.
(50:38):
Wow.
But I've been breathing everythird a lot in practice.
I even did the first half of arace the other day, breathing
every third.
And it's just to change it up.
Just will this help help myshoulders?
Does this relax my neck more?
Am I more balanced in my stroke?
And we can add, are you dolphinkicking off the wall?
These are elite skills, butthey're skills that I'm green
(51:00):
at.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:01):
So I think there are always ways within your sport
that you're very good at.
SPEAKER_02 (51:08):
Find things you're you can be green in.
SPEAKER_01 (51:10):
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (51:12):
All right, Maria, what a great interview.
Thanks.
Love you.
SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
Love you.
SPEAKER_02 (51:17):
Thank you so much for revisiting this champions
mojo Encore with me.
If it inspired you, pleasefollow the show, share it with a
friend, and consider leaving aquick review.
It truly helps.
And don't forget my new book,False Cure, available on Amazon
and Barnes Noble.
I'll be back in January 2026with all new episodes to help
(51:40):
you live well, swim well, andkeep your mojo going.
Hello friends, this is Kelly Palace, host of
Champions Mojo.
I'm taking a short break rightnow from recording new episodes
of Champions Mojo for twoexciting reasons.
First, I'm gonna be busylaunching my new book, False
Cure, which I've been writingfor the last year.
It's a whistleblowinginvestigative journalism book
(00:24):
about a denied health epidemic.
If you'd like more informationon that, just check out the show
notes.
But the second and mostcompelling reason I'm on a break
is that here at Champions Mojo,we're preparing for the January
2026 reboot of powerful newweekly episodes with expert
(00:45):
guest interviews, inspiringtopics, and tips to take your
mindset, health, and personalperformance to the next level.
We will be announcing someincredible partnerships, and I
guarantee that what we have instore for you will empower you
to keep your mojo strong in thenew year.
(01:05):
While I'm prepping all thisgreat stuff, I wanted to kick
off our Encore series with someof the most powerful
conversations we've ever had.
Today's episode is with Dr.
Colleen Hacker.
I've personally listened to thisepisode at least five times.
Her mindset tools for bothsports and life change the way I
(01:28):
think and perform.
They will help make you achampion.
My hope is that if this is yoursecond time listening to this
episode, you'll take away evenmore insight and motivation.
Or if it's your first time,you'll love it as much as I do.
So settle in and enjoy thisencore presentation in its
(01:48):
entirety with the brilliant Dr.
Colleen Hacker.
It's truly an honor to have Dr.
Colleen Hacker, who is theauthor of her new book,
Achieving Excellence MasteringMindset for Peak Performance in
Sport and Life.
As a certified mentalperformance consultant and
(02:09):
member of the U.S.
Olympic Committee SportsPsychology Registry, she has
served on six Olympic Gamestaffs, both winter and summer,
and more than a dozen worldchampionships teams working with
Major League Baseball, the NFL,the PGA, the LPGA, Chrome
Soccer, USA swimming, yay, crew,speed skating, track and field,
(02:32):
and tennis, just to name a few.
And in her day job, Dr.
Hacker is a professor in theDepartment of Kinesiology at
Pacific Lutheran University.
Maria, today we're going to getto talk sports psychology, one
of our favorite subjects.
What more can you tell us aboutDr.
Hacker?
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Well, ESPNW named Dr.
Hacker is one of the 30 women inthe country who changed the way
sports are played.
And she's been inducted intoseven different halls of fame,
either as an athlete or coach.
Her strategies for performanceare sought by corporations,
business groups, professional,and Olympic sports team, and
both print and media.
Her works appeared in the NewYork Times, the Washington Post,
(03:14):
CNN, and ESPN, just to name afew.
And we're just delighted.
There's so much to talk about.
Thank you very much for beinghere, Dr.
Hacker.
It's an honor to have you on.
Welcome to Champions Mojo.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Right back at you, Kelly and Maria Champions Mojo.
Like, what a title.
Let's do this.
It really is a privilege to joinyou and your listeners on your
pod.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Thank you.
Yes.
So we do want to ask you somequestions that we know our
listeners will be like, oh mygosh, we have the Olympic
consultant for mental skillshere with us.
What could we ask her?
So before we do those questions,can you just tell us about your
new book, Achieving Excellence: Mastering Mindset for Peak (03:56):
undefined
Performance in Sport and Life?
This is my new Bible.
It is unbelievablycomprehensive.
There is nothing one couldwonder about mindset for sports
and performance in life.
And we always talk about on thisshow, Dr.
Hacker, how sports mimics life.
(04:16):
But tell us about this new book,how it came about, and let's go
from there.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
First of all, I have to comment on this little phrase
that you use.
We love to talk about the mentalskills.
We love to talk about sportspsychology.
I would say you love to do thatbecause you cannot compete in
sport without attention to thatpart of the game.
You can talk about Iron Man, youcould talk about distance
(04:43):
swimming, you could talk aboutsprint swims.
And I will argue till my lastbreath that those six inches
between our ears might be themost significant real estate
that we're going to face in thecompetitive cauldron.
So there's a reason you talkabout it because the psychology
of excellence is inextricablylinked to the competitive
(05:05):
environment.
Now, to the new book, thank youfor those kind words.
And I want to assure thelisteners, I didn't write that
promo.
That was extemporaneous fromyou.
And you actually hit on what wetried to do.
This is my second book, 20 yearsin between the two.
But this book really is theculmination of my career in this
(05:29):
sphere.
And it reads that way.
It is written primarily forsport.
There's no question.
But the folks at Human Kinetics,the publishing company, said, we
want it for high-achievingcorporate athletes.
We want it in sport, in anycompetitive domain, whether it's
youth to intercollegiate toOlympic to Masters.
(05:54):
And if you heard that in thepages, like when you read it, if
you hear that attention, we werevery purposeful about that.
And there's tons of books inthis marketplace.
I'm aware of that.
And generally they they are oneor the other.
They're like workbooky kinds ofthings, like here's a worksheet,
(06:14):
do this, work on this, here'squestions to ask.
And you don't have anyunderstanding of what that
recommendation is based on.
Both as a speaker and a writer,everything I do is
scientifically based, it'sevidence-based, it is grounded
in the literature.
And then I try to speak andwrite as though it's not, if
(06:36):
that makes sense.
Like I try to translate thatjargon and that rather esoteric
kind of data and make itaccessible and practical.
We talk about what each topicis, why it's important, examples
in sport, in life, and inbusiness to which they can be
(06:59):
applied.
And then every single chaptercontains elements that say,
okay, make it your own now.
This isn't cookie cutter.
This isn't one size fits all.
This book allows each reader,each athlete, each high
performer to overlay theircareers where they are right now
(07:22):
with the exercises and elementsin the book.
So it's been very intentional.
I'm not going to be all shucksabout it.
I'm I'm proud of what we did.
The reviews and the responsesfrom the folks I care most
about, and that is the athletesand coaches and organizations,
has been remarkably positive.
SPEAKER_02 (07:43):
Yeah, it is a true masterpiece.
And I I have been a collector ofbooks in this genre for my
entire life.
My library is, I've probably got25 books, and I have not read
the entire thing, but I amabsolutely thrilled.
This is just it, it is a truemasterpiece.
So what we wanted to do is whilewe have you here, the guru, the
(08:09):
brain trust of mastering ourmindset, when you deal with the
U.S.
Olympic swimming team, andpre-recording, we talked about
the fact that we've had manyOlympic champions on our show,
and you've probably worked withmany of them.
What would you say is a commonproblem or a common issue that
swimmers tend to have with theirmindset?
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
Well, it's a great question.
And just one slight correction.
USA swimming often hires onemental skills coach for the
entire team.
I am hired privately andindividually by Olympic
swimmers.
So they have a team mentalskills coach.
And then when you get at theupper levels, they want their
(08:53):
own person.
I don't know how else to say it.
USA swimming has a great trackrecord, hires wonderful people.
But I have been very fortunateto be hired from Olympic
individual swimmers.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I don't know if I'm going to surprise you two or
not.
And I would love to hear youcomment on this.
When people hear Olympians, whenpeople hear gold medalists, when
people hear the word Olympicchampions, they don't expect
what I'm about to say.
One of the common threads is theissue of confidence.
(09:26):
And they're like, but butthey're world record holders,
but they're Olympic champions,but they're in the top three in
their discipline, in the work.
Confidence?
And there's a wonderful RobertHughes quote that goes something
like this perfect confidence isreserved for the least talented.
It's their consolation for them.
(09:47):
I love that.
There's wisdom in that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Truly greats have exceptionally high standards.
They don't assume because theyswam well in preliminaries or in
Munich that they're going toswim.
So what does that have to dowith the finals?
They understand that each momenttheir training is on the line,
(10:12):
their approach is on the line.
And technically, what theirapproach is in the early prelims
may change when they get to thefinals, right?
In terms of conserving energy,in terms of not giving too much
away in their race strategy.
So the truly greats, not thewannabe greats, not the
(10:32):
hangar-arounders in the engines,I would say to you that the
confidence road is always underconstruction for those folks.
They are either trying to get itback because they've lost it
after a poorer event or a poormeet, or they're trying to
maintain it for a longer periodof time throughout a competition
(10:55):
or in the run-up to a majorevent, or they're trying to just
eat out a little bit more.
Most of us realize that ourswimming changes depending on
our confidence.
I hate to say that bluntly.
Yes, yardage.
Yes, nutrition, yes, sleep, yes,hydration, yes, elite
(11:16):
performance is multifaceted.
But confidence, individualconfidence, which varies from
time to time, from athlete toathlete, from race to race, from
a competition to a competition,from site to site, is incredibly
variable.
I don't know if that surprisesyou.
I would be curious, but I wouldsay confidence is a recurring
(11:38):
thread throughout a quant,throughout a four-year time
period.
What say you, experts?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I am sure you're correct.
And certainly that's been truein my own athletic career and
professional career.
Confidence seems to come and go,and sometimes you feel like a
poser.
But I guess since we work withmasters, our audience is
masters, and we're both mastersathletes, I would ask you: has
that been your experience witholder athletes and older
(12:08):
professionals that they also arestruggling with confidence?
SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Yeah, that's a great distinction because the
demographics of the athletechanges in the course of our
lifetime.
What we're chasing in terms ofrecords or achievements, what
our approach is to training andto competitions, is not fixed in
stone and it's not linear.
It changes, it can changethroughout the course of a
(12:35):
lifetime.
One of the aspects of master'slevel athletes, and I deal with
master's level athletes in anumber of sports, and I'm
speaking in generalities, whichcarries it its own risk.
There is a wisdom and anappreciation to the process
(12:56):
infinitely more than in, forlack of a better way to say it,
prime of their lives, athletes,they're like, I'm snapping my
fingers now.
They want it now, it'simmediate.
They rise and fall on the lastperformance.
It is a rocket ship of up andcrash and up and crash.
(13:16):
Master's level swimmers, Ireally will stand by that.
There's a wisdom, there's apatience, there's a recognition,
and I would argue, at least inmy master's level athletes, a
real respect and appreciationfor the training and the process
and the experience.
The intrinsic motivation tendsto be consistently higher and a
(13:42):
driving force.
They're not trying to get theirnext endorsement.
They're not trying to rise andfall on the next gig.
This is about somethinggenerally personal, meaningful,
intrinsically valuable.
I want to see if I'm capable ofthis.
(14:03):
I want to see how far I can pushme to my capabilities rather
than getting caught up in thecomparison game of you, me.
I don't mean to indicate thatresults don't matter, they do.
I don't mean to indicate that Idon't know that I'm fourth and
you're third.
I probably do.
(14:24):
But my focus, my primary, andagain, I'm speaking in
generalities, is about theprocess, the value, the goals,
mastering, no pun intended,mastering the craft, trying to
be a little bit better.
And for masters, again, with myclients, for me myself, I'm
(14:46):
still running marathons, havemarathons.
There's a problem in sort of, Idon't know, I'll say it how I
do.
I'm the oldest I've ever been,and I'm busting it out.
There's something you generallysee in the life trajectory.
You go one way or another, youdon't just stay on a plateau.
And so there's again thisintrinsic pride of, I just had
(15:08):
another birthday and I'm fast.
I just birthday and I justcranked it out.
It is so powerful andcompelling.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
So I love master's level athletes.
It's it's the same, but it'sdifferent.
That's how I'd say it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
And I do too.
SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
I want to give you my response to confidence for a
master's athlete.
So yeah, I feel like that whatyou've said as a master's
athlete, many masters athleteshave different pedigree.
I was an Olympic trialsqualifier as a young swimmer,
went to college on a fullscholarship, continued swimming
masters, now swim at a highlevel where I go to a meet, I'm
(15:49):
trying to win a national title,get a number one time, set a
world record or a nationalrecord.
That's my trajectory.
I swim with the range of peoplewho are swimming in their first
meet.
They're afraid to dive off ablock.
So we all have different levelsof confidence.
But I, as this master's athletethat's trying to achieve
(16:10):
something special for my agegroup, for like all the history
that we talk about it.
And the wisdom, it doesn't seemto make me any more confident.
Maybe it's just a work inprogress, like you said.
You doubt that you're ready, youdoubt that you've had the best.
So I love that confidence iswhether you're swimming at a
(16:33):
high level, whether you're abrand new swimmer, whether
you're an Olympic level.
So let's talk about thatconfidence.
And do you think that it appliesto comparison?
So when I'm lacking confidence,I might stand up and say, ooh,
I'm swimming against swimmer Aand swimmer B.
And oh my gosh, they've had toptimes above me this season, and
(16:56):
I'm scared of them.
How do you find that comparisonhas to do with confidence?
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (17:03):
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
And let me willfully choose to be repetitive.
I want to come back and say theconfidence road is always under
construction.
And that might sound like somecute little phrase, but there's
power in understanding thatbecause I find that people are
continually frustrated by howthey're cop, you know, I'm
(17:25):
confident wines and my cop.
It's this nagging issue.
And it's like we don't mow thelawn and go, I mowed the lawn,
that's it for the rest of mylife.
We expect to mow the lawn again.
We don't wash the dishes onMonday and go, whoa, thank God
those dishes are done forever.
We normalize repetitiveness andthat important things need to be
(17:48):
done and done again and doneagain.
And then all of a sudden we getto confidence.
Not only is our confidencefalling, but then we're
frustrated over that fact.
And what I'm trying to do isnormalize it by saying the
confidence road is always underconstruction.
So I want to say that.
Secondly, and all of theserequire some explanation.
(18:10):
I'll try to do it in the mostpithy way that I can, but
confidence follows focus.
I'm going to say that again andthen explain it.
Confidence follows focus.
Athletes want to know how do Iget confident?
How do I keep confidence?
How do I stay there longer?
And what I say to them, thebeginning is to understand that
(18:32):
confidence follows focus.
So that when we are, I'm puttingin air quotes, when we're
lacking confidence, you knowwhat we're thinking about?
We're thinking about the setsthat we didn't get in.
We're thinking about the days wehad to skip because we had a
cold or we had, oh, thatshoulder injury that's flaring
up again.
Do I train?
Do I take a day off?
(18:52):
And then that messes with her.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Is when you lack confidence, Ican't say it's 100% of the time,
but it's up there.
It's an overwhelming majority.
What did I want to do is peelback the layers and say, what
are you focusing on?
What are you thinking about?
And chances are when yourconfidence dips, you're thinking
(19:13):
about how you haven't swung wellin that city before, or in that
pool before, or at that time ofthe year before.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Or at that meet, or you didn'tmatch up well against that
particular swimmer before.
Well, that was then.
This is now.
Do now well.
And we carry that baggage,literally baggage.
(19:39):
Imagine if I put a 10-poundweighted vest on your body and
say, go get them, tiger.
That's what you're swimming inright now.
And you'd go, Why on earth wouldI swim in a weighted vest?
But we do that psychologicallyand emotionally by carrying test
baggage into the presentperformance.
(20:00):
And then my phrase is we tend toswim heavy.
We tend to swim heavy.
I want to say another commonissue that is related to
confidence and related to focus.
Athletes don't realize, andagain, I struggle with do these
phrases make sense withoutexplanation or how much
explanation?
(20:21):
But athletes, by and large, amajority of their time in their
sport, they benefit the processof putting skill in, the process
of putting speed in, the processof putting technique in,
whatever it might be, stroke,turn, start, finish.
(20:42):
That process requires effort,thinking, repetition, attention
to detail.
Not yet, do it again, not yet,do it again, not yet, do it
again.
And loving that process.
But the process of pulling outthat talent, pulling out that
(21:03):
work is entirely different.
That's when we don't want tothink, we don't want to analyze,
we don't want to critique momentby moment.
And so there's this trickylittle dichotomy that I have
benefited.
I'm as good as I am because ofmy attention to detail and I
(21:24):
sweat everything and nothing'sever good enough.
And I'd say, good on you.
Exactly.
So put excellence in, itrequires that.
But to bring excellence, thenyou have to trust your training.
You have to let go and trustyour training.
Okay, so let me give you anexample.
And I won't tell you who.
(21:45):
I hope that our listeners won'tbe able to guess who because I
want to protect this.
This is a multiple gold medalswimmer that I worked with prior
to a particular Olympic Games.
Remember, I said the process ofbringing skill out, the
performance element is almostthe opposite of what went into
it.
And so she's swimming.
(22:06):
And so we try harder when wetrain.
We try harder.
When you try harder when you'reswimming, you're tighter.
Timing is off.
So the phrase that we use forher is easy speed.
We didn't want her to swim at ahundred percent.
Do you guys get what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Let's not swim at a hundred.
(22:28):
Absolutely.
Tight shoulders make slow times.
So we wanted her to have thisfeeling of easy speed.
And again, now I'm whispering.
Not because we didn't want towin a gold medal, not because
she didn't want to swim fast,not because she didn't want to
get a PR.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
But running for it, minutelymonitoring her stroke, her turn,
(22:55):
her split.
That's not the process ofbringing skill out.
That's the time to let go andtrust your training.
This is a great point to askabout pain.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
So yeah.
Love, love, love.
And easy speed is a term inswimming and tapering that we
always talk about.
When you taper and you'reproperly prepared and you're in
the right place, you just easyspeed come.
So that is a term that I thinkmany elite swimmers know and I
love.
And that's a good trigger forwhen you dive in.
(23:28):
Easy speed.
But for those of us like Mariaand I, and this would be one of
the questions that we'relistening to that we talk about
a lot because we do have a lotof triathletes, so endurance
athletes.
The thing that freaks me outmore than lack of confidence,
more than anything, is when I'mstanding behind the block, and I
know many people do it, andMaria's on her bike, ready to go
(23:50):
for 12 hours, and I'm about toswim a mile, I am afraid of the
pain.
I literally fear that painbecause I know, yes, I can have
easy speed on the first 800 of a1500, but when I hit the halfway
point, it's a different story.
If I'm on the threshold of thataerobic anaerobic threshold, I
(24:14):
have to maintain that pace tohold the pace to set the record.
It's just excruciating.
What strategies could you sharewith us that those of us that
are afraid of the pain coulduse?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Respectfully, I would argue that without the
pain, you would not be amaster's level swimmer at the
highest level.
I would respectfully argue thatyou love the pain and you hate
the pain.
True.
That which we achieve tooeasily, we esteem too lightly.
(24:50):
You guys feel me on this?
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Oh yes.
So there's lots of differentways.
You understand phraseology, butlove the wind, love the rain,
love the hills.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
You can't go in fearing the hills, fearing I
need it to be perfect, right?
It the weather and the course orwhatever it is, whether it's
cycling or running, swimming, Iguess it would be open water
versus a controlled environment.
But love the wind, love therain, love the hills.
That's a metaphor for the painis coming.
(25:23):
And the pain is the separator.
The pain is the separator,right?
Are you willing to endure?
And now I'm gonna go back.
This is what I love about trulyauthentic conversations.
In my mind, we come back to oneof my earlier answers.
It's personal, it's intrinsic.
(25:43):
Nobody's making you do that.
I'll tell you how to stop thepain, Kelly.
Here's how you make the painstop.
Go slower, choose shorter races.
I was a national level inlineskater, like where you're down
low, all quads.
You guys with me on this?
Yeah.
Here's how I can make the paingo away in a billionth of a
(26:05):
second.
Stand up.
I have goosebumps right nowbecause I would argue that pain
is a hook for you.
That pain is a hook.
You hate it and you love it.
You know that it's a separator.
And you're saying, yes, I'mwilling to go there.
And I would argue to be at thelevel that you guys are, not
(26:27):
only are you saying, yes, I'mwilling to go there, I'm willing
to endure longer and deeper thanyou.
That's true.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
I wish everybody could see Dr.
Hacker's face.
I just gave the most You look tothe left and to her right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Adorable look to the left, look to the right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:49):
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
If you remove the pain, my hunch is that you'd
find a different achievementdomain.
I think it's inextricably linkedto the pride and the challenge
and the difficulty of theevents.
Because frankly, you could makeit go away instantly.
You're choosing not to.
(27:11):
Embrace that.
That's your superpower.
That's your superpower.
I know in advance that this isgonna push me to my limit, and
I'm gonna want to quit.
And I know I won't.
And I know I have trained sothat I don't.
You understand what I'm saying?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
That's beautiful.
I want to build on that fearquestion with a different, maybe
kind of fear for mastersathletes, which is as we
continue to challenge ourselves,my family is always saying,
Stop.
You're gonna hurt yourself.
And sure enough, I do hurtmyself.
I overdo it or I try somethingnew.
I'm challenging myself to learnnew swimming skills right now,
(27:53):
also trying to learn some newbalance skills as I'm in my 60s.
And yet there's risk associatedwith that.
There's risk of injury, there'srisk of maybe long-term
disability.
What do you say about that?
Like, how do we walk that lineof the real fear of hurting
myself, I suppose, is thesimplest way to put it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
But I want to add embarrassment to that.
And embarrassment.
And embarrassment because that'swhat I hear from people.
I'm embarrassed to go to a meetand dive off the block funny, or
hurt myself, or be laughed at,or get last.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
What those two questions have in common is
fear, but the origins and thesolutions are, I would go two
different directions with that.
So I don't have a one answer forboth of your questions.
But one of the things, it's it'sa little bit like what I said
about achieving excellence.
You cannot know about science,but it doesn't make it go away.
(28:50):
You cannot know aboutphysiology, but it doesn't make
it go away.
You cannot know about musclerepair and the different timing
of nerve repair versus musclerepair versus joint repair.
You cannot know any of thatstuff, and it doesn't mean it
goes away.
And so I'm gonna go back to whatI said earlier.
(29:12):
To me, and again, do I deal witha ton of masters athletes?
No.
Who are my clients?
I'm just owning it.
They tend to be the best of thebest in their craft, right?
So I have to own that.
But these folks, as a result,intrinsic, personal, now they're
studying the science ofrefueling, of hydration, of
(29:36):
listen, I have a meet in twoweeks, but this muscle is going
to repair on its own time.
And so what I'm saying is, mostmasters athletes that I'm
working with, the breadth oftheir knowledge about
psychology, about physiology,about their own body.
(30:00):
The folks that can stay in itand in it at high levels for a
long time, they are tuned intothe science.
They are tuned into the science.
Where younger folks, for lack ofa better way to say it, they
have handlers.
They have handlers that tellthem what to do.
They moderate the load.
They've just got an entourage ofsports scientists.
(30:23):
Most masters athletes are theirown entourage.
And so, Maria, to your point,there's a joke, show me an elite
athlete and I'll show you aninjured athlete.
Well, there's some truth tothat.
Love that.
And our ligaments don't have thesame elasticity, the same
recovery speed in our 21s.
(30:46):
Now, I might be a 70-year-oldmaster's athlete who has the
physiology of a 25-year-old, butnot an 18-year-old.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, in other words, I'm anoutlier in my age cohort, but at
some point, physiology wins.
It's science.
We don't live forever, right?
(31:06):
And so I go back to earliercomments.
There's a wisdom and a patienceand a personal control and
personal agency that I see inmaster swimmers, masters
athletes that I don't see in theyounger cohort.
They go to somebody and say, fixit.
Here's the event.
(31:28):
This is what I have to havehappen.
And they're willing to doshort-term fixes and they're
willing to cede power toexternal sources.
So, Maria, what I would say toyou is, and I get it, I don't
know this, but if I actuallyasked you to talk about your
physiological knowledge journey,I would suspect you'd say you
(31:51):
started here and you're here.
Like you know things now that 20years ago you didn't attend to.
And I would argue that thescience is changing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Right, it is.
SPEAKER_00 (32:02):
So what was recommended?
I've had ACL surgery.
I have a really dear friend whowas on the Canadian national
basketball team.
Her ACL was career-ending.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Now, this is decades ago.
Right.
But I've run marathons and 50half marathons since my ACL.
She's not running across thestreet to get the mail.
(32:25):
So science is changing,technology is changing, our
knowledge, our scientificknowledge base is exploding.
And I would argue that master'slevel more than others are
availing themselves of thatknowledge.
These are aware, these arevoracious readers, these are
(32:47):
consumers of quality.
And to me, that's the ideal.
Most people would say, I wish Iwas who I was now when I was in
my 20s.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like, oh my gosh, if I hadthis, all of the this is that I
just enumerated, right?
The tactical awareness, thetechnical expertise, the
(33:09):
physiological awareness.
There's four pillars ofswimming, right?
The technical, the tactical,physiological, psychological.
Master swimmers, by and large,are tuned into all four pillars.
Younger, super talented people,they think the answer is go
fast.
Go fast and win.
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Yeah.
So what you're, I think I hearyou saying it to mitigate the
risks as you age, just learnwhat you gotta learn.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Learn, learn, learn.
Not knowing the science doesn'tmake it go away.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Correct, correct, right?
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
There's a reason Kelly said I have 25 mental
skills training.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Because she's emblematic of what I'm talking
about.
I'm a voracious reader.
Look at how you're adding.
Uh if I'm hearing you, you'readding either new elements to
your swimming or new technicalchanges, whether it's hand
position or kick or bodyposition or entry.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
Frankly, I'm learning to swim.
I'm learning to swim the wholething.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
This far into your life and your career.
That's the beauty of master'slevel.
I have a phrase that says, ifyou're green, you're growing,
and if you're ripe, you'rerotting.
I I heard you say that before.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
I'd love that.
I totally love that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
I want to be green and growing, and I want to work
with athletes who are green andgrowing.
And don't get me wrong.
Look, I wish you well, butthere's champions that are ripe
and rotting.
I don't know if you know thisabout me, but I have 12 world
records.
I don't know if you know thisabout me, but I got 10 gold
medals.
I don't know if you know.
Like I'm good.
I'm riping and rotting, greenand growing.
(34:46):
The edge.
I want people who love itbecause of its uncertainty,
because of its pain, because Idon't know if I can, but I'm
here for it.
There's something about thathook that keeps us coming back.
If we knew it, I think it wouldlose some of its shine.
(35:07):
If it was guaranteed andpredictable, I think it would
lose some of its shine to thebest.
Some best can quite predictable.
Right?
They tricked knowing.
It's comfortable, it's familiar.
Nothing like that.
I'm not disparaging that.
I'm just saying, unless we'rewilling to go to the edge of our
(35:31):
capabilities, we literally don'tknow what's possible.
And there's some people thatrevel in that unknown.
I love, love, love that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
And before we go to the last question, can you break
down a little bit for MasterSummer's technique, tactical
physiology, and psychology?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Yeah, I take that for granted.
And Kelly, you're so wise and agood listener to follow up.
I would say this about cycling,I would say this about running,
any sport, but let's keep it toswimming.
What I'm about to say applies toevery sport at every level, but
the details are different.
But now I'm just going to useswimming as the model.
(36:17):
Swimming is comprised of what Iwould call four pillars of
swimming.
And before I get into each oneof them, unless you are
consistently, systemically, andappropriately training all four
pillars concurrently, what Iwill tell you, athletes, is
(36:38):
you're leaving some of yourpotential on the table.
You will never know.
It has to be all four pillars,scientifically, systemically,
and consistently.
It's not one and done.
It's not this month, it's notearly in the season.
You get what I'm saying.
Okay, so what are the fourpillars?
Swimming is comprised of thetechnical aspects of swimming.
(36:59):
And I kind of alluded to those.
That's how, so broadly, how isbreaststroke different from
freestyle?
How is butterfly different frombackstroke?
But then if we looked withinfreestyle, it's how high I bring
my elbow out of the water, myentry point, my finger
placement, my kick speed, uh, myrhythm, my body position in the
(37:23):
water, my breathing patterns,when I breathe, the side that I
right, the technical aspectsthat make swimming swimming and
not basketball.
Okay, tactics.
Now we're getting into atactical approach to training
and a tactical approach tocompetition.
(37:44):
Let me make it simple andswimming, just so this is a
tactical example of swimming.
Do I go out fast and try to holdon?
Or do I go out consistent andthen kick you out of the finish
at the end?
You have to worry about me.
Oh, she's right on my heels andI know she's a fast finisher.
(38:05):
Oh crap.
I mean, I would love to do thatto my opponent, right?
So tactics are your racestrategy, your race plan.
Tactics are what I alluded toearlier without using that
terminology.
How will I approach thepreliminaries, the semifinals,
the finals?
How will I approach the Munichtry or the Munich versus
(38:28):
nationals versus worlds, right?
You have different tacticalapproaches to different events
at different times.
Tactics and training are when doI go high mileage, high yardage?
When do I build on strength?
How am I weaving in flexibility?
I know that sounds likephysiological, but I'm talking
about when and amount andtiming.
(38:50):
Those are all tactical aspectsof swimming.
Physiological, again, withoutusing the term, I've already
commented on them.
So I want the listener to say,oh yeah, that's what she was
talking about.
What are physiological elements?
People think right away,physiology, they think strength,
anaerobic power, aerobic power.
(39:12):
Okay, the obvious, right?
Strength, fitness, flexibility,anaerobic, aerobic max VO2,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I shouldn't say blah, blah,blah.
Let me backtrack.
That's the low-hanging fruit.
But let's expand physiology,sleep, wake patterns, napping,
not napping, how long to nap,hydration, what to drink, when
(39:38):
to drink, the timing, right?
When are we restoring ourglycogen stores?
You know, there's a window whenour muscles are going, gimme,
gimme, gimme.
Allow me some food.
You missed that window.
You missed your window.
So in between preliminaries andsemifinals and right?
So it's hydration, fuel,nutrient dense, the right
(39:59):
nutrients at the right time inthe right proportion.
And Yohoo, there's generalguidelines, but those are
individual, we're biochemicallyunique.
And our biochemical needs in our70s are different from our 50s
and are different from our 20s.
So here we go.
We have people doing at allphases of their life what they
(40:22):
used to do because it used to besuccessful.
You see what I'm saying?
So sleep, hydration, fuel, allthe fitness, that's
physiological.
Mental skills are just likephysical skills.
You're not born with them.
There's no DNA like blue eyes,brown eyes.
There's no DNA for height.
(40:42):
There's no DNA for fat storagelocations called, thank you, who
contributed the DNA to my body,right?
Genes will out, physiology willsout.
But psychological skills are, weknow them, we know how they
affect performance.
And no matter where you are onthe spectrum of mental skills,
(41:06):
whatever you have, the goal isto develop more or greater
control.
So it's issues like what we didbefore the podcast, somebatic
control, breathing, mindfulness,getting sympathetic and
parasympathetic systems inbalance and recognizing when one
is out of balance.
(41:27):
It's self-talk, it's cognitiverestructuring, it's imagery,
it's goal setting, it'sconfidence.
Just like I could say bicepcurls, tricep extensions, leg
extensions, leg curls, gastro,toe raises, right?
We have all these different bodyparts.
That's the same thing.
(41:47):
Mental skills are just likephysical skills.
Yes, each of us are born at at acertain baseline, but can we get
stronger?
The answer is yes.
Each of us have a baselinespeed, but can we get faster?
Yes.
Same thing with mental skills.
They are skills.
(42:09):
So if you want to improve anyskill, what do you do?
You identify it, you target it,you practice it appropriately.
It's that simple.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
Love it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
So to put a bow and wrap it around this whole
conversation, I think three ofus sitting here as elite
athletes would say that even ifwe had a hundred percent
tactical, technical, andphysiological, if we were zero
on the mind, none of thosemattered.
(42:40):
None of those mattered.
If you were A plus in yourtraining, your tactics and your
technique, and you were zero inyour mind.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
Okay, that's we will never know how good you could
be, and you will never know howgood you can be.
Well, what do we act out likewhen I'm on site with athletes?
Like I'm sitting on afour-legged chair right now.
I don't know, you guys areprobably on wheels or whatever.
But just think of this.
And and I'm not trying to beclever, just literally do this.
(43:11):
There's four legs on my chair.
Can I balance?
And you can tell the listenersthat I'm trying to.
I'm balancing on three of thoselegs right now.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
Am I comfortable?
Is this good posture?
Can I maintain this position forhours at a time?
So the chair has four legs for areason.
That's what provides thefoundation, the platform.
Can you swim without attentionto the psychological dimension?
Yeah, you could swim, but not atyour best, not at the edges of
(43:43):
your capability.
And I will tell you, you willnever know how good you could be
unless you have an equal andconcomitant investment in the
psychological skills.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
Great.
SPEAKER_02 (43:55):
Yeah, that is a great place to wrap this, Maria.
You want to ask the lastquestion?
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
I have so many more millions of questions.
One of which is like, how do youhave time for all this training?
But we will have to have youback for that.
The last question is (44:07):
Is there anything else that you would
like to say that we haven'tspecifically asked that you
think is really important?
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
Well, I think you've been wonderful hosts, and I
think you've asked the practicalquestions or some of the
practical questions thatathletes would be curious about.
I think my only point would beto say this, and this is from
decades of an investment in theprofessional literature and the
science of mental skillstraining, is this.
(44:48):
They work.
Are you willing to do the work?
That chasm between knowing anddoing is a critical chasm of
excellence.
It it separates the accomplishedfrom the pretenders, the
accomplishments from sub-elite.
We know what to do.
If you ask the average American,do you know foods that you
(45:10):
should eat more of?
Yes.
Do you need foods?
What food should you avoid?
Yes.
Okay, raise your hand if you dothat.
Most days, oh, it's not knowingwhat to do.
You get no benefit for knowingwhat to do.
The only benefit occurs when youdo what you know.
It has to be action-based.
SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
And if you have any question about what to do, get
Dr.
Hacker's book and it's laid outline by line.
SPEAKER_02 (45:36):
If anybody has questions, it's in the book.
It is definitely there.
So Dr.
Hacker.
Thank you, Bill.
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you for spendingthis time with us.
Our listeners are going to getso much value out of this.
We really appreciate you.
Very grateful.
Bye.
You're going to take care.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
Stay tuned for the takeaways.
(45:58):
Well, Maria, Dr.
Colleen Hacker, what asuperstar.
For me personally, I might havegotten the most that I've ever
gotten out of an interview.
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Yeah.
She's an expert.
And she was so full ofenthusiasm for her subject
matter.
It was great.
I wish we could have talked toher all day.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Yeah, she's so passionate and so professional
and scientific and educated, andjust it's it was amazing.
So my first takeaway, and I feellike the main uh learning point
for me of the whole interviewwas the four pillars that we
need to succeed.
And she specified them formaster swimmers or for swimmers,
(46:39):
which is uh the technical partof being a great swimmer, which
we know is the stroke mechanics,et cetera.
The tactical part, which isseason planning, race planning,
the physiological part, which isam I getting the right sleep?
Am I strength training?
Am I training my anaerobicsystem, my aerobic system, my
(47:02):
flexibility, my nutrition, allthose things physiologically?
And then of course, Hunger'smain expertise is the fourth
pillar, which is thepsychological part.
And we rounded this up with thefact that yeah, you can be an A
plus on all three of those firstof the four pillars.
But like she said, if your chairhas four legs and you're not
(47:24):
using that fourth one or any ofthe four, then you're not going
to succeed.
So technique, tactical, thephysiological part, and the
psychological part.
And then you said your firsttakeaway had to do with how
these are actually applied.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
Yeah, I loved how she said this.
She uses words so well, but shesaid these four skills have to
be applied consistently,systematically, appropriately,
and scientifically.
And that was really speaking tomy earlier question, which was
how, as masters, athletes, do wekeep from hurting ourselves,
getting injured?
Or, you know, how do we perform?
(48:00):
And she said, basically, yougotta know the science.
If you're gonna be successful,you've got to apply these four
things by knowing the latestscience, and it's different now
than it was 20 years ago.
And it's different for a60-year-old than it is for a
40-year-old or a 20-year-old.
So I love that.
So you gotta take responsibilityfor knowing your stuff if you're
gonna continue to improve.
SPEAKER_02 (48:21):
Yes, wonderful.
My second of many takeaways,like you said, I think you have
four pages of notes.
I have three pages of notes.
The one that just hits home forendurance athletes is that fear
of the pain factor.
I I still believe staying in thepresent moment, not fearing the
pain, is a great way, whichwe've talked about a lot.
But to have a new tool in mytool bag of dealing with pain
(48:44):
was her approach.
Her strategy is that, hey, thepain is, I hate the pain, I love
the pain, it's gonna rain, thereare gonna be hills.
So embrace that pain and know,and this is the key for me that
really clicked is that the painis what makes you have a peak
(49:05):
performance.
The pain is what makes you gofaster.
If you slow down, you're notgonna have a good time.
So yeah, the pain is anindicator of, hey, I'm going
fast, I'm gonna have a goodtime.
And the final part of this isthat the pain is what can
separate us from thecompetition.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
I love that.
And yeah, which she said, youwant the pain to go away, just
stop.
Yeah, I love that.
That's so good.
And we know that.
You and I have said that to eachother.
We're willing to endure pain anddiscomfort, maybe more than
other people.
That's what makes us achievewhat we can achieve.
So I I love that.
I love that.
We're beasts.
Yeah, we're beasts beasts, andthat's what we have to keep
(49:44):
telling ourselves.
Yeah, so the last takeaway forme, and I'd heard her say this
in another podcast, and I justlove it.
So appropriate for older people.
If you're green, you're growing,and if you're ripe, you're
rotting.
So basically, it's okay to behere.
I am learning, really learningto swim.
That means I'm green.
(50:05):
That means I'm not gonna do itright.
That means it's gonna beembarrassing, but I am growing
and I'm learning new stuff, andthat's good.
And I'd rather be growing thanripe and rotting.
SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Great for master's athletes.
And even if you are anexperienced long-term master's
swimmer, so somebody like mewho's been master swimming for
35 years, I'm taking away beinggreen for me, is doing new
things and swimming that Ihaven't done.
So recently I've been trying tobreathe every third.
I've always, my entire lifebreathed every stroke.
(50:38):
Wow.
But I've been breathing everythird a lot in practice.
I even did the first half of arace the other day, breathing
every third.
And it's just to change it up.
Just will this help help myshoulders?
Does this relax my neck more?
Am I more balanced in my stroke?
And we can add, are you dolphinkicking off the wall?
These are elite skills, butthey're skills that I'm green
(51:00):
at.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:01):
So I think there are always ways within your sport
that you're very good at.
SPEAKER_02 (51:08):
Find things you're you can be green in.
SPEAKER_01 (51:10):
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (51:12):
All right, Maria, what a great interview.
Thanks.
Love you.
SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
Love you.
SPEAKER_02 (51:17):
Thank you so much for revisiting this champions
mojo Encore with me.
If it inspired you, pleasefollow the show, share it with a
friend, and consider leaving aquick review.
It truly helps.
And don't forget my new book,False Cure, available on Amazon
and Barnes Noble.
I'll be back in January 2026with all new episodes to help
(51:40):
you live well, swim well, andkeep your mojo going.
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