Bayard Rustin: The Man Behind the March

On August 28, 1963, 250,000 people of different races, religions, and economic backgrounds convened on the nation’s capital for the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. The man behind organizing the event – Bayard Rustin – is profiled in a new Oscar-nominated film “Rustin.” In this episode, we speak with producers of the film, Tonia Davis and Bruce Cohen, and historian Dr. Clayborne Carson of Stanford University.

Episode Transcript

JAMIE RICHARDSON: The JFK 35 podcast (00:00):
undefined

(00:01):
is made possiblethrough generous support
from the Blanche &Irving Laurie Foundation.

COLMAN DOMINGO (00:06):
We are going to put together
the largest peaceful protestin the history of this nation.

ACTRESS (00:14):
How big?

COLMAN DOMINGO (00:15):
100,000 people.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (00:18):
That was Oscar-nominated Best Actor,
Colman Domingo, portraying civilrights activist Bayard Rustin.
In a new Netflix film, Domingoplays the charismatic activist,
who served keyroles in organizing
the largest single demonstrationin the United States
for its time.

MATT PORTER (00:32):
We'll talk with the producers of the film and also
a historian, who wasthere, in August 1963,
when Rustin an estimated 250,000people marched on Washington.
All that coming up onthis episode of JFK 35.

JOHN KENNEDY (00:47):
And so, my fellow Americans,
ask not what yourcountry can do for you,
ask what you can dofor your country.
[MUSIC PLAYING, APPLAUSE]
[MUSIC PLAYING]


MATT PORTER (01:06):
Hello, I'm Matt Porter.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (01:08):
And I'm Jamie Richardson.
Welcome to the first episodeof the New season of JFK 35.
On August 28, 1963, aquarter of a million people,
of different races, religions,and economic backgrounds,
convened on the nation'scapital for the March
on Washington forJobs and Freedom.
While leaders, like MartinLuther King Jr, A. Philip

(01:29):
Randolph, and JohnLewis are remembered
for their powerful wordsto the crowd that day,
there is one man whodidn't make a speech
but left an indeliblemark on the march.

MATT PORTER (01:38):
His name was Bayard Rustin.
Rustin, a man who believedin non-violent protests,
served as a mentor to MartinLuther King Jr and others.
He was also a gay Blackman living in an era
when that was still illegalin some parts of the United
States.
He was a charismaticcommunity organizer
and served as the deputydirector and principal
organizer of the marchunder A. Philip Randolph.

(02:01):
Without him, many saythe march could not
have happened as it did.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (02:05):
His story is told in a new Netflix
film, produced by HigherGround Media, a production
company started by Barackand Michelle Obama.
Here's a clip ofactor Colman Domingo,
who portrayed Rustinand is nominated
for a Best Actor Award innext week's Academy Awards.
In the clip, Rustin is having aconversation, with white police
officers from Washington DC,on the steps of the Lincoln

(02:27):
Memorial, where Martin LutherKing and others would speak.
On the day of your march,the entire DC police force
has been mobilized along with500 reserves, 2,500 National
Guard, 4,000 Army soldiers,and, per orders of the Pentagon,
19,000 troops.

COLMAN DOMINGO (02:42):
Well, I hope you'll have something for them
to do, because theywill not be needed here.
And whoever has directdealings with Mr Hoover,
let him know that,on August 28, Black,
White, young, old,rich, working class,
poor will descendon Washington DC.
And there's nothinghe can do to stop it.

MATT PORTER (03:03):
Joining me now are producers, Tonia Davis
and Bruce Cohen.
Tonia serves as head of motionpictures for Higher Ground
Media.
She's executive producedthe documentary, Becoming,
about Michelle Obama, theOscar-nominated documentary,
Crip Camp, and the criticallyacclaimed animated series,
Ada Twist.
Under her leadership,Higher Ground
also presented featurefilms, including Fatherhood,

(03:25):
starring Kevin Hart, and Worth,based on former JFK Library
Foundation Chairman, KennethFeinberg, and his memoir, What
is Life Worth.
Tonia and Higher Groundrecently executive
produced the movie,Leave the World Behind,
starring Julia Robertsand Mahershala Ali,
which hit the number fivespot, in Netflix's Most
Popular Films, with morethan 140 million views

(03:48):
in its first 73 days.
Bruce is an Oscarand Tony winning,
Emmy nominated producer offilm, television, theater,
and live events.
He won an Academy Award for BestPicture for American Beauty,
and earned additionalBest Picture nominations
for Milk and SilverLinings Playbook.
He produced severalBroadway plays and musicals,
including winning theTony for Best Play,

(04:09):
in 2020, for co-producingMatthew Lopez's The
Inheritance.
And he receiveda Tony nomination
for co-producing JeremyO Harris's SLAVE Play.
He is currently co-chair ofthe President's Committee
on the Arts and the Humanities.
Tonia and Bruce, thankyou for joining me.

BRUCE COHEN (04:26):
Thank you for having us.

TONIA DAVIS (04:28):
It's great to be here.

MATT PORTER (04:29):
Great.
I want to start, beforewe get into the film,
how did you bothcome to find yourself
with this script and the ideaof this film, in front of you,
about civil rightsactivist Bayard Rustin?

BRUCE COHEN (04:42):
Dustin Lance Black, who
is one of the screenwritersalong with Julian Breece,
had sent me the screenplay thatthey had worked on together.
I actually knewwho Bayard Rustin
was, because there is afantastic documentary,
called Brother Outsider,that I had seen in the '90s.
So he'd sort of been someone,in the back of my mind,

(05:02):
of an unsung heroand an LGBT icon that
had never gotten his due.
So when Lance, who Ihad worked with on Milk,
let me know thathe had been working
on a script about Bayard, Iwas very excited to read it.
I was even more excited onceI read it and really wanted

(05:22):
to do everything humanlypossible to get it made.
And fortuitously, rightaround that same time
is when HigherGround, the production
company run by the Obamas,had opened with their deal
at Netflix.
And as I was learning that moreand more people in Hollywood
had never heardof Bayard Rustin,

(05:43):
I do rememberthinking to myself,
well, I know one person whoknows who Bayard Rustin is.
And the person whoI was thinking of
is the gentlemanwho had bestowed
upon Rustin the PresidentialMedal of Freedom,
posthumously, onthe 50th anniversary
of the March on Washington.
And that was PresidentBarack Obama.

(06:04):
So when I saw that he nowhad a production company,
along with Michelle, that'swhat gave me the idea
to send the script to Tonia.
And thank goodness, I did.

MATT PORTER (06:16):
And Tonia, what was it
like when Bruce came to youwith the Rustin script and idea?

TONIA DAVIS (06:20):
Well, first of all, it was thrilling.
Because I didn't know Bruce yet,personally, but I knew his work
and had long been an admirerof a number of the films
that he'd produced, includingMilk, including Silver Linings
Playbook, includingAmerican Beauty.
And so I was receiving aphone call from Bruce Cohen.
It came in as amessage, left for me,

(06:41):
over lunch, regardingBayard Rustin, a name
that I'd really only heard whenmy now boss, President Obama,
had given him this medal.
And so I called Bruceback, right away.
We introduced ourselves--introduced ourselves, quickly.
And then he sent me thisbeautiful screenplay.
And as soon as he explainedto me what the project was,

(07:02):
the scope of the timeline thatwe were going to be working
through and telling,and the-- really--
goals of theproject, creatively,
not to mention thatGeorge C Wolfe,
who was a directorI'd always admired
but who most recentlyhad made this film,
Ma Rainey's Black Bottom.
As soon as Brucestarted talking,

(07:23):
I was jumping for joy andsaying, yes, right away,
and just startedto try to formulate
how I was going to talkto President and Mrs Obama
about it.
Because this was going to be ourfirst film from Higher Ground.
And I got this wholepitch prepared.
I wrote it out.
I practiced infront of the mirror.
And then, as soon as I got onthe phone with President Obama,

(07:43):
I said, we alsoreceived a screenplay
from this great producerand this great screenwriter.
And it's about Bayard Rustin.
And then I prepared togo into long explanation
and this long speech.
And Obama just said,that sounds terrific.
We should do that one, for sure.
Let me read it.
And then he read it.
And fell in lovewith it, as I did.
So we got involved.

(08:03):
Bruce was producing theproject for a number of years
before HigherGround even existed.
And then we gotinvolved and, together,
took the movie to Netflix,George Wolfe directing,
and got it up on its feet.

MATT PORTER (08:14):
And so, what was it for you,
about Rustin's story, that youmade-- that made both of you
think this could be a powerfulfilm for today's audience?

BRUCE COHEN (08:21):
I had the general idea and dream
that it was a huge problemand shame that no one knew
who Bayard Rustin was.
But what I didn't know,until I read the screenplay,
was the extraordinarystory of how
he had the idea forand then pulled off
the March on Washington.
And one of the seminalcharacter relations

(08:43):
in the film, whichis him and Dr. Martin
Luther King Jr, who--
they had been very close.
Bayard had been a mentor of his.
Bayard is the onewho had really taught
Dr. King about nonviolence.
And then-- slight spoiler alert,if you haven't seen the film--
but their arc, which is allcompletely true to history,

(09:04):
which is that Dr. Kingwas not able to stand up
against the forces ofhomophobia and allowed
Bayard to be basically firedfrom the movement in 1960.
And then the arcthat led Dr. King
to being able tostand up for Bayard,
very strongly, justbefore the March in 1963.

(09:26):
So in addition to thisbrilliantly important
historical storythat had been lost,
there was thisincredible personal story
at the center of it.
So it just started feelinglike a really good movie to me.

MATT PORTER (09:38):
And Tonia, was there
anything that grabbed atyou, about the script,
that you thought thisis perfect for today?

TONIA DAVIS (09:44):
Well, it was the notion
that, in order todo your best work,
you had to be who you arein your full, naked self,
publicly.
And so it was thenotion that your power
was going to come from yourown authenticity and honesty
and from celebratingyourself and your differences

(10:04):
rather than hiding them.
And that is a hugely powerfulpiece of Bayard's story.
You know, Bayard wasan openly gay man
in an era when thatwasn't at all the norm.
And he suffered--rather, he faced
potential real consequences,in his job and his career,

(10:25):
and his, also, personal safety,to do that and to be that.
And to tell thestory of how he was
able to stand in hisown truth, and using
that truth, in many respects,was able to really change
the course of history, wasjust an incredible story
and an inspiringone to be a part of
and an inspiringone, we thought,
we hoped for audiences in thiscountry and around the world.

MATT PORTER (10:48):
And so how do you tell that story?
He was a complex figure.
He had this pacifism that puthim in jail in World War II.
He was obviously, asyou said, a gay man
in a world where thatwas not something
you could be public about.
And then, at the same time, herehe is, sort of in the shadows,
organizing what becomesthe largest demonstration

(11:09):
in the nation's capital.
How do you tell thatstory and do it justice?

BRUCE COHEN (11:12):
Well, everything you just said
is part of whyit's a great story.
There's so many elements.
He's got so many obstacles.
So that all hopefully leadstowards good moviemaking.
As far as doingit justice, that's
always the challenge of, well,pretty much every film or TV

(11:32):
show in general but,specifically, true stories.
Because you're nevergoing to actually
be able to tell the story,in all of its detail,
as it actually happened.
You're always needingto find out, figure out
what's the wayin, in particular,
that we want to tell.
And I think, in thiscase, one of the big leaps

(11:54):
that really paid off, thatJulian and Lance made,
was to focus on the Marchon Washington, itself.
We have a little bitof the story that
starts with the backstory,in 1960, as I mentioned,
because it's the setup ofthe Dr. Martin Luther King
relationship.
But the most of the filmis in the months leading up
to the March on Washington.
And that decision,to tell that story,

(12:17):
as opposed to tryingto do a soup to nuts
biography of Bayard Rustin, weall believed, very strongly,
in that story.
And I think the film is proofthat that was a brilliant move.
Because it's centering thestory around a very specific
incident, a veryspecific amount of time.
And that's, in my opinion,often a lot easier,

(12:39):
to make a great movieof a true story,
than if you're trying toshow someone's whole life,
in two hours, which is prettymuch impossible to do justice
to.

MATT PORTER (12:48):
Speaking of the focusing on the March
on Washington, I think partof what gets missed, today,
is that everyone thinksthe March happened,
everyone was happyabout it, everyone
went, had this amazingday, and it was done.
And it was perfect.
And your story reallyshows that there
were a number of breakingpoints, and a lot of people
were divided.
Should they picketthe White House, too?
Or who goes out?

(13:10):
How long do they stay?
And it wasn't perfect.
It took a lot offinesse to pull it off.
And that's why you havethis character, Rustin,
who was gathering allthese parties together.
But talk about that, howyou had to basically tell
a story that mostpeople probably thought
wasn't as complex asit turned out to be.

TONIA DAVIS (13:27):
So the Obamas are, almost more than anything,
originally, grassrootscommunity organizers.
And so one of the reasonsthat President Obama was
so excited about thismovie, in particular,
and this perspectiveon the story,
from Julian andLance and George,
was that it didn't cover up anyof the backroom complications

(13:54):
of what it takes toplan a march, like this,
and to plan collective action,but instead really celebrated
all of the differentmachinations,
the politicalcomplications, backstabbing,
et cetera, and then how Bayard,and his team of organizers,
were able tonavigate through that
to create this sort of once ina lifetime, once in a generation

(14:16):
gigantic publicdisplay of unity.
So in terms of why wewanted to show that
and how we showedthat, that was actually
a very, very, verybeginning conversation
of what do we hopeto accomplish.
And one of the things thatwe hoped to accomplish
was showing that theimpossible is possible.

(14:37):
But it doesn't happen easily.
It doesn't happen overnight.
And it doesn't happenwithout every single person
making compromisesand sacrifices
and coming intothe room and being
able to argue and disagreeuntil you reach a conclusion.
We all know that theMarch on Washington
didn't change anythingovernight for so many people.
And so much of thecivil rights journey

(15:00):
happened afterwardsand is still happening.
But it was this symbol, andthis moment of great unity,
that was compiledby, put together
by a number of differentfactions, who came together,
because they had a reasonto and saw the greater
purpose in doing so.

MATT PORTER (15:15):
What was, I mean, the challenge, really,
of getting the rightdirector and the right cast
for this film?
Like you've got astar studded cast.
The director is awesome.
But all those thingshave to come together.
And what was that like findingthe right mix of people
to do this movie right?

BRUCE COHEN (15:30):
Well, I would I'd start
by saying one ofthe things Tonia
and I learned on this movieis, if you, as a producer,
want a world class,superlative cast
to give extraordinaryperformances,
hire George C Wolfeto be your director.
Everything else kindof flows from there.

(15:51):
George is just such abrilliant visionary.
He's really one of the greatdirectors working today.
He's a true actor's director.
And when it came toour specific cast,
he also has anensemble of actors
that, betweenBroadway and films,
he's worked with,again and again,
that will pretty much put asideanything in their schedules

(16:14):
to work with him, includingColman Domingo and Audra
McDonald and JeffreyWright and Glynn Turman,
and the list goes on and on.
So yes, we understoodthat we needed
the perfect director and anabsolutely extraordinary cast
to really make sure the filmlived up to its full potential.

(16:37):
And I think we got that withGeorge and all of the actors
that came on board to bea part of his journey.

MATT PORTER (16:43):
It really did come together, so well.
With the 1960s,you cover this era.
It's an era of demonstrationsand protest and activism.
How do you guys lookat that, from the film,
and then kind of lookat today's activism
and focus on civilrights and, now,
LGBTQ rights being out there?
Do you draw anysimilarities from the fights

(17:04):
they were having, the style ofhow they had their activism,
from then to now?

TONIA DAVIS (17:09):
In addition to being an incredible filmmaker,
Bruce Cohen is also anactivist in this exact space.
And so he is the perfectperson to answer the question.
I'll say, for me, theparallels are almost scary.
The tactics are different.
The tools availableare different.
But the intentionsfeel very very similar.

BRUCE COHEN (17:30):
That was one of the things--
and thank you, Tonia,for those nice words--
one of the truly shockingthings for us, making the film,
was not just how relevantand necessary the message
of the film and the retellingof what happened was.

(17:51):
When we started tryingto get the movie made,
before COVID, but,shockingly, how much
it was even more relevantonce the movie came out.
I mean we watched historystart to go backwards,
as far as LGBTQ rights,as far as civil rights,
in the course of the film.

(18:13):
So it was quite bracingbringing it out, last year,
in the winter of 2023.
There's a line in the filmwhere, early on, in the film,
Bayard Rustin says,counting on the courts
to eradicate discrimination--that's madness.
Well, that was true in1960, in the early 1960s.

(18:38):
And then we had a long periodwhere, as Americans, we
became spoiled tobelieve that it actually
might be the Supreme Court'sjob to eradicate discrimination.
And in fact, in case aftercase after case, that's
what they were doing wastrying to move towards a more

(19:00):
just America, tomore closely live up
to the "all menare created equal,"
which should, ofcourse, have been
all humans are created equal--
credos of our founding.
But now, the moviecomes out last year.
We're in a period where theSupreme Court is actually
taking away rights thatwe have, taking them

(19:20):
back away from us,decision after decision.
And that's something that wecouldn't have ever imagined,
even in 2018, when westarted doing the film.
So it was a real wake up callto how this movie's message is
more relevant today than ever.

MATT PORTER (19:38):
Wow.
A reminder that Rustin'swords are still true today.
I just have a couplemore questions.
This one's for Toniaabout Higher Ground Media.
President and Mrs. Kennedywere always fierce advocates
of the arts andproponents that the arts
can inform and educate.
They had many artistscome to the White House.
They started that--restarted that tradition.
And I kind of think ofPresident Obama and Mrs. Obama,

(20:00):
similarly, now that they'reout of the White House,
they're continuingthat leadership
by forming this company.
It's, for us, asthe Kennedy Library,
it feels so connected to us.
How do you feel about themission of Higher Ground
and what you hope tocontinue to accomplish
in your next couple of yearsin whatever you produce?

TONIA DAVIS (20:16):
Yeah.
Thank you fordrawing that parallel
and for asking the question.
So actually, President andMrs. Obama's love of the arts
started way before they werein the White House together.
One of their first dates,famously, was to a movie
together.
And so they'd always notonly been huge supporters
of the arts but actuallyreally found connection

(20:37):
with each other and throughtheir families-- and inside
of their family, rather,through the arts.
When they were inthe White House,
they hosted every majorsinger, songwriter, playwright.
Lin-Manuel Miranda cameand performed Hamilton.
They went on dates to NewYork City, occasionally.

MATT PORTER (20:57):
I heard that Hamilton thing did really well,
by the way.

TONIA DAVIS (21:00):
That Hamilton thing did really--
that Hamilton thingdid really well.
And in fact, BruceSpringsteen came,
before he was on Broadway,and did that show, actually,
for the president, as well.
And so they always felt notonly that it was their job,
in the White House,to really support
arts and culture,American arts and culture,

(21:20):
and to give it a bigstage, but, also,
to really celebrate both theartists, that you've heard of,
and also the artists that youmaybe haven't yet heard of.
That extended evenwhen they were
having their national portraitsdone in the portrait gallery,
famously choosing Kehinde Wiley,an artist who was well-known.
But certainly doing theportraits of President and Mrs.

(21:42):
Obama catapulted himinto a new stratosphere.
So they've always felt thatit was part of their mission
to tell stories and tobring people together
through that storytelling.
That essentially 99.999% ofus are identical in every way,
and that we're alwaysfocused on that .0001%

(22:03):
piece of differences among us.
But if we can actuallyconnect through storytelling,
find the commonhumanity, that the world
would be just a little bitof a kinder, better place.
So in terms of HigherGround Media, what
we are circling now,what we're doing next,
the amazing partnership we'vehad with Bruce and George
and Lance, on the movie Rustin,the goals and the mission

(22:25):
of the company are very muchas they have always been,
which is to tell storiesaligned with our values,
with filmmakers who sharethose values and can push us
into high quality, wonderfulfilms and television shows,
and to do so fora wide audience.
The Obamas want tomeet the audience,

(22:45):
where they are, and tellstories that are appealing
to people to watchand to think through
and that hopefully makethe world just a little bit
of a more connected place.

MATT PORTER (22:54):
Well, that's awesome.
I'm looking forwardto the next project.
And Bruce, maybe this questionis for you or for both of you,
but when this episodeairs, it'll be about a week
before the big Oscar night.
Your Best Actor, ColmanDomingo, getting a nomination.
For many people, they'regoing to watch the Oscars
and see that Oscar momentclip that people talk about,
and they'll see hisbrief snippet of Rustin.

(23:15):
And for many, thatmight be the first time
they are introducedto the character.
What do you hope peoplewho don't have knowledge
of Bayard Rustin willlearn and take away
after watching the full film?

BRUCE COHEN (23:26):
Well, the larger dream
of the whole project,from the beginning,
was to give Bayard Rustina place in history,
so that people know whohe is moving forward,
so that his namedoes not get lost
and his deeds do not get lostand that, from now on, he's
taught in history booksand people know who he is

(23:47):
and what he did and what asignificant American he is.
And so for us, Colemangetting the Oscar nomination
for Best Actor is one ofthe largest and best ways
to help make sure that happens.
And I will also add, though,that one thing George brought
to the table, which weall completely supported,

(24:09):
including Coleman,was that and--
in capital letters-- ANDwhile we're telling the story,
we have to entertain.
We all felt like, ifthis movie was not
as joyous and funand charismatic
and lively as BayardRustin was, himself,
that Bayard would comeback from his grave
and kick all of our butts.

(24:30):
So the hope of thetakeaway, certainly
for people who haven't heardanything about the movie yet,
but for the hundredsof millions of people
around the world who seethe great clip that we'll
choose and get to be introducedto Coleman on the Academy
Awards, is thatthey'll watch the film.
And that there'll beanother notch on the list,

(24:52):
the ever-growing list ofpeople around the world who
now know who BayardRustin is and what he did.

MATT PORTER (24:59):
Well, I wish you all the best of luck.
And I hope thatthe Oscars are just
another springboard for youall and that many, many more
watch this movie.
It is available on Netflix.
So thank you bothfor joining us.

TONIA DAVIS (25:09):
Thank you, Matt.

BRUCE COHEN (25:11):
Thank you, Matt.
Pleasure to be here.
[SPRIGHTLY MUSIC]


MATT PORTER (25:21):
While the Netflix film
will introduce BayardRustin's name to new audiences
around the world, thehistory of the entire march
will also be highlighted.

JAMIE RICHARDSON: Joining us, to talk (25:30):
undefined
about Bayard Rustin and thehistoric nature of the March
on Washington, is historianand Martin Luther King Jr
Centennial Professor Emeritus atStanford University, Clayborne
Carson.
Dr. Carson, thank youfor joining us today.

CLAYBORNE CARSON (25:44):
Good to be here with you.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (25:46):
So just starting from the beginning,
can you tell us a little bitabout the type of family life
that Bayard Rustinhad growing up?
He had grandparentswho raised him.
They were Quakers.
How did that influence hislife in the civil rights
and gay rights movements?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (25:58):
Well, I think, in some ways,
that's a part of his lifeI don't know a lot about.
But I understand that he grewup with these strong beliefs
from his parents and his family.
And I understand that he wasa wonderful athlete, someone
who was quite well regarded inhis community, someone who came

(26:20):
up with a lot of confidence.
And I can't think ofany other civil rights
leaders who could have madefame as a singer or perhaps
other fields.
But that was definitelythe case with him.
He was multi-talented.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (26:36):
And amongst his talents, ended up
being an organizing.
So how did he developthese talents,
who were some of his mostimportant mentors early
in his life?

CLAYBORNE CARSON: AJ Muste, I guess, (26:45):
undefined
would be one ofhis main advisors.
He got involved inmovements, while he
was in college, during the1930s, as many people did.
And ultimately, became drawnto the pacifist movement.
I think that washis main background.

(27:06):
It fit his personality.
He wanted to build themovement to change the world
but through nonviolent means.
And I think that washis gift that he brought
into the civil rights movement.
I mean, he felt that hehad a background, including

(27:26):
going to prison forhis beliefs, that
qualified him to be acredible leader, someone
who could advise someonelike a Martin Luther King.
And I think his abilityto come to Montgomery
and fairly quickly gain MartinLuther King's confidence,
in part, becauseCoretta Scott King had

(27:49):
had a background of her own.
I think that both of them reallyinfluenced Martin Luther King.
She was probably more drawntoward the pacifist ideas
than Martin was at that time.
She had seen Bayard Rustinwhile she was in high school.
And of course,trusted him when he

(28:11):
arrived in Montgomeryat a time when
probably acceptingoutside advice
was a little bit dangerous.
Because you didn't know whetherthat would hurt the movement.
But I think she saw him asa friend of the movement.
And that allowed Martinto see him in that role.

MATT PORTER (28:29):
In the early part of the civil rights movement,
I'm talking in the '30s,as things were starting
to develop, Rustin brieflyjoined the Young Communist
League, like maybe anumber of African-Americans
were drawn to initially.
What did thatexperience teach him
and why did he ultimatelyleave that movement?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (28:46):
Well, I think, as you mentioned,
a lot of peoplebecame infatuated
with communist ideas, in part,because during the Depression,
the economic issuesseemed to be paramount.
There was a sense of how canwe solve this issue, how can we
deal with the number of peoplewho are out of work, how can we

(29:08):
reform the economicsystem, so that it provides
more opportunities for workers.
All of these things wereprime concerns of many people
who went through the 1930s.
And that became paramountin their interests.
Even as late as theMarch on Washington,
it was the March on Washingtonfor Jobs and Freedom.

(29:31):
And they wanted to make surethat the job issue remained
paramount in themovements concerned.

MATT PORTER (29:38):
And why do you think so many left?
There were a number ofpeople who got involved,
but then they quickly left andfounded their own movement.
Was there somethingabout communism
that made them edgy and wantingto get away from that, maybe,
politicized group at the time?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (29:54):
Well, I think that the doctrines were not
as attractive assay the doctrines
of the pacifistmovement in the sense
that it was all about economicsand not about other concerns.
And I think that led Rustinand many other people
to think that it was wrongjust to be narrowly concerned

(30:16):
about the economicsystem, but you
needed an ideology,first of all,
that didn't rely on revolutionas the solution to the problem.
That was somethingthat was obviously
not going to be nonviolent.
And I think that that's whatled them to believe more

(30:38):
in the nonviolent ideas.
Now, one of the thingsthat's also true
is the importanceof India and Gandhi.
They saw, in the world,a nonviolent alternative
in the anti-colonial struggle.
And the fact that Gandhi washaving a great deal of impact

(31:01):
in India.
He hadn't succeededyet, but he certainly
showed that therewas another way
of achieving greater equityin the world, of ending
colonialism.
It didn't have to be nonviolent.
It didn't have to be violent.
It could be overthrownthrough non-violent means.
So that was an importantlesson for a lot

(31:23):
of people during that time.

MATT PORTER (31:25):
And part of why we're
talking about BayardRustin, for this episode,
is obviously the new movie thatis receiving critical acclaim.
In that movie, it mentionsa moment in Rustin's past
where he was sort ofpermanently disfigured,
after being beaten bypolice, after refusing
to take a back seat in the bus.
This was obviously passive,nonviolent resistance.

(31:46):
Can you talk, maybe, if you haveany knowledge of the experience
that he had or whyRustin believed
so deeply innonviolent resistance
despite the violence?

CLAYBORNE CARSON: Well, all I could (31:56):
undefined
say on that is that ittakes a lot of courage
to respond non-violently.
I've gone through somesimilar experiences.
And I can tell youit is difficult.
For me, it was during whatwas called the "Watts Riot."
I called it a rebellion.
But I remember gettinghit by a policeman.

(32:17):
And part of mynonviolence came from,
I wasn't going to win a fight,violently, with a policeman.
So it was just madea lot more sense.
But I guess, for manypeople like Rustin,
it was a philosophynot just a tactic.
It was something thatthey truly believed
in and were willing togive their lives for.

(32:40):
And I think that's somethingthat grew stronger,
over the years, that he beganto see that that was not just
the best way of responding toinjustice but the wisest way.
It was the way that wasgoing to ultimately win.
And it was going to win, becauseyou didn't reduce yourself

(33:05):
to the level of your opponent.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (33:07):
And one of the other people involved that was,
I think, sort of amentor figure for Rustin
was the labor unionleader, A Philip Randolph.
What was theirrelationship like?
How did they meet?
What did they learn orgain from each other?

CLAYBORNE CARSON: Well, Rustin, I think, (33:20):
undefined
was a very energetic person, whocould help a Philip Randolph.
By that time, he was apretty mature leader.
And I guess I'd justcall him an older leader.
When he wanted to getPresident Roosevelt to allow

(33:41):
Black workers to get many ofthe jobs in the war industries,
he used the threat of anonviolent march in Washington.
This is before World WarI-- before the United States
gets involved in World War I.
And that threatwas something that
turned out to be effective.

(34:03):
It did get many Black workersjobs in the war industries,
particularly out herein California, sea port
industries.
So I guess that thatwas, for Rustin,
his way of proving hisvalue to A Philip Randolph.
And that idea of themarch on Washington
as a way of putting pressureon the president, of course,

(34:24):
is something that returns inthe 1960s, when, again, you
have a president who mightbe persuaded to join,
to support the movement,but maybe needed
a little bit of a pushthat a march could provide.
Randolph didn't have toactually have the march.
It was just thethreat of the march.

(34:46):
But I think, forRustin, it was something
that really needed to happen.
And it needed to happenon a very large scale.
That march, by the way, was myintroduction to the movement.
I was 19 yearsold, at that time,
and managed to find a wayof getting a ride there.
And it was-- well,one way of putting

(35:07):
it is when I got there,I saw all these people.
I later found that200,000 was the population
of the state I was living in.
That was New Mexico at the time.
And to see all of them togetherwas more people, by far,
than I had seen in all my life.
The notion that thiscould have been organized?

(35:30):
I wasn't able tomeet Bayard Rustin.
But I met other people.
I remember Stokely Carmichael,one of the people I met.
And he had actually triedto persuade me not to go.
He said, why go to that picnic?
And why don't youjoin us in the South?
And I didn't want to tellhim that going to the picnic

(35:51):
was the most radicalthing I'd done in my life.
And it was really anexperience that really
changed the course of my life.
I knew that, onceI had been there,
this was bigger than anything Iwas likely to ever experience.
And I wanted to beconnected to that movement.

JAMIE RICHARDSON: That's incredible. (36:13):
undefined
I definitely want totouch back on that when we
reach that moment in history.
But you mentioned Martin LutherKing, earlier, as somebody--
or Rustin and Martin Luther Kingbeing important to each other.
Can you talk abouthow they met and what
their relationship was like?

CLAYBORNE CARSON: Well, Rustin was (36:28):
undefined
among a number of peoplewho came to Montgomery
after the Bus Boycott started.
And all of them wanted to adviseMartin Luther King, because you
could imagine,here, is the largest
Black movement of that time.
And here is a youngminister, who's

(36:48):
never led a movement before.
And you see a number ofpeople basically saying,
don't blow this opportunity.
You've got to buildan effective movement.
And it's going totake a long time.
The movement, the Bus Boycottmovement went on for 381 days.

(37:11):
And to have itled by a minister,
in his mid-20s, who hadnever led such a movement,
was almost animpossible thought.
And I think it was quite usefuland necessary that people,
like Rustin, came to Montgomery,offered their services.

(37:34):
In Rustin's case, I think whatI recall from the stories,
I've heard that Corettakind of spoke for him
and vouched for him, saidthat this is the person I
met in high school.
And you should trust his advice.

(37:54):
And I think that thatrelationship was a very strong
relationship, through theMontgomery Bus Boycott,
but, also, afterwardswhen Martin
began to emerge as a leadernot just in Montgomery but more
on a national level or atleast on a South-wide level.
And Rustin helped in terms offorming the Southern Christian

(38:19):
Leadership Conference,which King led.
And I think thatit was interesting
that, here is theSouthern Leadership
Council, for Blackministers in the South.
The idea really cameout of New York City.
And it came out of people whoknew that this was something,

(38:44):
a coordinating committee thatwould help spread the movement,
from Montgomery to other cities.
And working withother ministers,
even someone like FredShuttlesworth, in Birmingham.
I recall that he wrote aletter to Martin saying,

(39:05):
we need such amovement in Birmingham.
Why don't you come overhere and help us build one?
And of course,Birmingham, he eventually
came there and found,as Shuttlesworth
would have alreadytold him, that building
a movement in Montgomerycompared to Birmingham,
Birmingham was much tougher.

(39:27):
The resistancewas much stronger.
Montgomery was kind of on theperiphery of the segregationist
South in terms of the Klanwas not as strong there.
In Birmingham, not onlythe Klan was strong,
but the Police Chief Bull Connorwas fiercely segregationist.

(39:50):
The governor, at thattime, was George Wallace,
a fierce segregationist.
So it was notsurprising that King
was somewhat reluctantto accept Shuttlesworth's
advice for a long time.
But I think that he knew thatif he won in Birmingham--

(40:15):
and this turned out tobe true, that if you
could defeat segregationin Birmingham,
the battle was in its end stage.
This was a sign that segregationwas not going to succeed,
and it could be overcome.
But people died.

(40:36):
And it was a struggle that hadled to the Civil Rights Act.
But it also led to the killingsof three young Black children
in the 16th StreetBaptist Church.
So I guess therewas four-- yeah,
there was four children thatwere killed that September.

(41:00):
So I think it showed that thesegregationist movement was
strong, but became a stimulusfor the passage of the Civil
Rights Act.

MATT PORTER (41:12):
So amidst all the violence that was going on,
as you just talked about,when was the idea of having
this large March on Washington,this large peaceful march
in Washington sortof started and where
was Rustin's role as far asthe early stages of planning
this massive march in DC?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (41:33):
Well, it didn't start with King.
He was not really that muchinvolved in the march plan.
And I think my ownfeeling about it--
only a lot of the peoplewho could confirm it,
one way or the other,are no longer with us.
But probably, it stayed inA Philip Randolph's mind

(41:56):
and certainlyBayard Rustin's mind
that this was a way ofputting some pressure
on the government and,particularly, John Kennedy.
He was very reluctant tointroduce civil rights
legislation.
And even Birmingham-- Birminghamcaused him to take a stand.

(42:22):
And the march was kind ofa continuation of that.
You have a reluctantpresident who says,
what if civil rightslegislation doesn't pass?
I'll be in worseshape than before.
And how is it goingto get passed?
And I've got other prioritiesfor my administration.

(42:44):
So you have areluctant president.
And having themarch became a way
of bringing thatpressure to Washington.
And I think that itsucceeded in that way.
Well, I think it succeeded,also, because it turned out
to be nonviolent.

(43:04):
And despite the fact thatmilitary forces were brought
to Washington, in case therewas violence, what was striking,
for us who were there thatday, is all those people,
and, as far as I know, thereweren't any significant acts
of violence done at that day.

(43:26):
It was kind of like StokelyCarmichael had told me,
it was a picnic.
It was a day ofspeeches and singing.
And everybody went home.
And as far as I know,there was no violence.
So it was somethingthat was successful.

(43:49):
And I think Bayard Rustin'srole in it was tremendous.
I wouldn't have knownabout it at the time,
because I was just a spectator.
But I understand thatorganizing an event, like that,
was a major victory for him.

(44:11):
He was able to pull togetherlots of different forces
from the labor movement,the civil rights
movement in different places,all these disparate leaders who
all wanted to speak, and tryingto make it so that there would

(44:31):
be a mixture ofsinging and speeches,
that people would kindof stick to five to seven
minute speeches ratherthan long speeches.
In fact, the only onewho broke that rule
was Martin Luther King.
And my understanding is hedid it with Bayard Rustin's
encouragement.

(44:51):
He said, well, you'rethe last speaker.
If you want to go a littlebit over, it's OK with me.
No one's going tocome after you.

MATT PORTER (45:00):
They won't be playing the Oscar music
to bring Martin LutherKing off the lectern.

CLAYBORNE CARSON (45:05):
Yeah, that would have been interesting
if that had happened.
Because as youprobably realize, we
have the draft ofthe original speech.
And it was a five toseven minute speech.
And everything elsewas extemporaneous.
It wasn't the first time he hadgiven a speech about his dream.

(45:27):
But he knew it well enough thatit could be extemporaneous.
And it's interesting, today,that people still call
it the "I Have a Dream" speech.
It wasn't named thatby Martin Luther King.

MATT PORTER (45:40):
To me, it's really interesting,
because everyonesees it as, you said,
a hugely successful event,sort of this uniting
of different factions,as you mentioned,
for one peaceful cause.
But I don't want to overshadow,there were disagreements,
some big disagreements up tothe organization of the March,
where not everybody was on boardwith all the original plans.

(46:01):
Do you want to talk, atall, a little bit about how
all those negotiationshappened to pull it off,
to get those differentpeople together?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (46:09):
Yeah, it was a lot of compromise and bringing,
as you mentioned, lotsof different people
from different perspectives.
Probably the Marchwould not have
happened without theevents in Birmingham.
But Fred Shuttlesworth,as I recall,
was not among theinvited speakers.

(46:29):
And he was the leader ofthe Birmingham movement.
So there was a mixture.
There were people who wereorganizational leaders
at the national level, religiousleaders, cultural leaders.
And I think that was Rustin'sgenius of bringing together

(46:53):
all of the differentelements of what
could be called the NationalCivil Rights movement.
And I wish that FredShuttlesworth had been there.
But I think that it was also thecase that they wanted something
that would convinceone person, and that

(47:13):
was John Kennedy, to getbehind the Civil Rights Act.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (47:18):
And there was a Gallup poll,
at the time, that polledAmericans and said that they
found that 23% of Americans,who had heard about the March,
had a positive view of it.
And so it, obviously, inaddition to segregationists,
who would not careor want this at all,
some civil rightsactivists or people
who are sort of morepro civil rights
were worried thatthe March could

(47:38):
jeopardize Kennedy's impendingor pending civil rights
legislation.
Can you kind ofexplain that rationale
or how Rustin and the leadersof the March handled that?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (47:47):
I don't know that they handled it so much.
They had faiththat the March was
going to have a good impact.
Probably, Kennedy anda lot of his advisors
were worried to the end thatsomething would go wrong,
and the Civil RightsAct would not pass.
And we don't knowwhether it would

(48:09):
have if Kennedy had lived.
Partly what happenedis he was assassinated.
And Lyndon Johnsonbecame president.
And Lyndon Johnson gotbehind the passage of the act
and probably had more skills inCongress than John Kennedy did.

(48:30):
It's hard to know.
But I think that it tooka lot to get that passed.
And those of us, whowere alive at that time,
I think if you hadtaken a vote, it
wouldn't have beenunanimous in terms
of its chances of passage.

(48:50):
And I'm glad it did.
We went through the same thingwith the Voting Rights Act.
But I think, atfirst, what I recall
is that everyone was afraidof the filibuster that
had been used many times tostop civil rights legislation
and other kinds of legislation.

(49:12):
And it had been an effectivetool to stop change.
And the fact thatit was overcome
took a lot ofmaneuvering by people,
like Lyndon Johnson, whohad been in the Senate
and kind of understood howto get it through Congress.

(49:35):
And of course, itwas, in my view,
one of the most importantpieces of legislation
in American history.
It's certainly,ultimately changed
the segregationist system,because it took a while
to get it enforced.
And of course, you had to dealwith the voting rights issue

(49:57):
separately.
But bringing about desegregationwas a fundamental change.
It was important inthe same way that, when
we talk aboutschool segregation,
it took a Supreme Court decisionBrown versus Board of Education
to begin that change.

(50:18):
And it took many, manyyears to be finalized.
But segregationactually, remarkably
occurred in feweryears in many cities.
And I think a city, likeAtlanta, was ready for it.
A city like Birminghamprobably took longer and a lot
of the rural South many yearsbefore change really came.

(50:40):
But at least you hada legal basis for it.
And I think the two acts,the '64 Act, the Civil Rights
Act and the VotingRights Act were
the fundamental changes ofthat decade and, as I said,
American history.

MATT PORTER (50:56):
I want to just come back to the March,
just for a couplemore questions.
And we want to talk to youbriefly about your experience
in the March.
But before that, Bayard Rustin,his affiliation with the Young
Communist League and alsowhispers about his sexuality,
he was the deputy directorfor A Philip Randolph.
Were there ever concernsabout Bayard Rustin's exposure

(51:18):
during the March andthe planning of it?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (51:19):
Well, I think it's remarkable
that everyone knew about thesupposed secret of Rustin's
sexual orientation.
And so it becamekind of, well, we
know the other sideof it, too, that he's
an effective organizer.
He's a person who hastalents that nobody else has.

(51:41):

And at the time,it didn't really
bring about the major changesthat we would see later
in terms of changes in Americanviews about homosexuality.
But I think lookingback, people can
see that he played thisimportant role in history.

(52:04):
And it was something that--
I guess, the wayI would put it is
that it was something that wasseen as potentially damaging.
So it was alwaysa source of worry.
But nearly everybody Iknew about, who knew him,
seemed to accept the bargain.

(52:28):
They probably wished that itwasn't, that he was straight,
but not to thepoint of saying, I'm
not going to accept his advice.
I'm not going toaccept his help.
And I think the majorthing was don't get caught.
And that was the downtime in hislife, when he did get caught.
And I think that thattaught him a lesson, too.

(52:51):
He had to recognize thatcould not only damage himself
but damage themovement at that time.

MATT PORTER (52:59):
And for you, personally, you
were there at the March.
We would love togive you a minute
to tell us how you felt beingthere as a witness to history?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (53:08):
Well, for me, it was something that--
I was invited to a studentconference, the National
Student Association meeting thatwas in Indianapolis, Indiana, I
guess, that year.
It was actually on the campusof the University of Indiana.
And I was offered a ride witha group from Indianapolis.

(53:28):
And I didn't expect to go there.
I had no way ofgetting home, actually.
But I did get aride to the March.
And once I got there,it was interesting.
There were 200,000 people.
And I didn't see a singleperson that I knew.

(53:49):
Because I just kind ofwandered off by myself.
I didn't know too many ofthe people from Indianapolis.
And I just kind of wanderedaround for the March.
And it was my firsttrip to Washington DC.
It was all new.
I was from a smalltown in New Mexico.
And here were all thesepeople, all these Black people.

(54:11):
I saw far more Blackpeople than, probably,
in the rest of my life.
And the fact thatthey were all there,
they were all in this big event.
One thing I doremember was a lot
of these people, who I'donly seen on television, that

(54:32):
included entertainersand not just leaders,
but actually seeingthem in person
was a major, majorpoint in my life.
I don't know if anythingcan compare to coming
to an event like that.
Because I will never,ever be an event

(54:55):
like that, with that manystars, with that many prominent
individuals all in one place.
And just seeing thestrength of the movement.
It might have been StokelyCarmichael's picnic,
but I didn't see him there.
It was the biggestevent in my life.
And I was reallyglad that I went.

(55:17):
And I came awayfrom it thinking,
I've got to getfind ways of getting
involved in this movement.
Even though I'mliving out West, but I
knew that I was goingto leave that small town
and end up in a big city.
And that's what I did.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (55:33):
And before I go to my next question,
you mentioned that youdidn't have a way home.
How did you eventuallyfind your way back home?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (55:39):
I hitchhiked.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (55:41):
Oh, OK.

CLAYBORNE CARSON: I hesitate to say (55:42):
undefined
that, because the notion of a 19year old Black kid hitchhiking,
from Indianapolis toAlbuquerque, New Mexico,
was something thatI would probably
punish my kid,even today, my son
if he tried something like that.

(56:04):
But once I was there, Ifelt I could do anything.
And fortunately, I got back.
I didn't have anybad experiences.
I got picked up bya number of people.
Some of them went out of theirway to help me on my ride.
Maybe it was part ofthe spirit of the March.
Because a lot of thepeople who picked me up

(56:26):
were White, some Black.
And it was--
Actually, rightnow, I kind of wish
that I had a cell phone then.
I could have takenpictures of them
or done an interviewwith them and find out
why are they picking upthis kid on the road.

(56:50):
But also, I should say thatpeople hitchhiked more back
in those days.
But definitely-- whenI think about it,
it was not somethingI would ever do again.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (57:07):
Oh, sorry.

CLAYBORNE CARSON (57:09):
Now, I know the dangers.

JAMIE RICHARDSON (57:10):
Yeah, I'm glad that you made it
home safe and sound after that.
An incredible experience,I can't imagine.
And then we just have acouple more questions.
Just wanted to continuewith Bayard Rustin's life.
What was his career like after?
We have the March.
We have the CivilRights Act passed.
What did he get involvedwith Afterwards?
Was he more-- turnedhis attentions

(57:31):
to the gay rights movement?
What was his life like then?

CLAYBORNE CARSON (57:33):
I think he turned his life
more to the labor movement.
I didn't know too much.
I tried to interview him,when I became a historian,
and found that he washard to track down.
So when I was travelingacross the country,
I just came to his office.
I think it was--
I seem to remember it was inPhiladelphia at that time.

(57:55):
But in any case, this wasduring the 1970s, I think.
And they said, well,he's busy today.
I said, look, I'm drivingacross this country.
And I've traveledthousands of miles.
I'm not going tobe here forever.

(58:16):
Can I sit outside andwait until he comes out,
and maybe we can have a talk.
He knew I was outside.
And I sat outsidefor hours and was
never able to have aconversation with him.
And what I sensed is thathe had become, by that time,

(58:38):
so important, maybe I cancall it self-important,
that he didn't have timefor this kid, young person
out in the office.
But it was sad, insome ways, because I
think he could have addeda lot to my knowledge.

(59:00):
And what was so important thathe didn't have time for that?
But now that I knowmore about his life,
I can kind of see, yeah, he wastoo important for that kid out
in the office.
And he probably did havemore important things to do.

(59:21):
Or at least, he thoughthe needed to do.
But it's part of thecomplexity that I feel.
And who knows, wouldit have been different
if I'd been outside MartinLuther King's office trying
to get an interview?
You find that, atdifferent times,

(59:44):
people play different roles.
And now I understand that more.
I would never--
I hope that I will neverbe sitting in my office
and have had some youngperson wanting an interview
that I never even comeout and say hello to.

But that's my lastmemory of him is the fact

(01:00:07):
that I didn't get the interview.
And I think thatthat's probably not
atypical of somethingthat happens in life.
You rise to thepoint where something
that you might havedone readily, earlier,

(01:00:27):
becomes kind of beneath you.
And as I said, it'sinteresting in the sense
that I've had so many of theother kind of experiences,
where some person I modeledas being really important
did take the timeto sit down with me

(01:00:49):
and explain what was going on.
And I had the pleasureof meeting so many
of the people whowere there that day,
people like FredShuttlesworth, who also
didn't get a chance to speak.
And John Lewisbecame a good friend.
Stokely Carmichael, Istayed in touch with him
until the end of his life.
All of these peoplebecame part of my life.

MATT PORTER (01:01:11):
I want to say, thank you,
for making the timeto speak to us.
And as a journalist, Irecognize that sometimes you
have an interview thatyou really want to have,
and sometimes it doesn't work.
So my empathy and, again,my thanks that you've chosen
to make some time for us.
One last question we have.
This episode is going to aira week before the Oscars.

(01:01:32):
Certainly, there aregoing to be people
who are not familiarwith the civil rights
movement, the Marchon Washington,
who are going tohear Bayard Rustin's
name for the first time, beintroduced to the character,
the person he was for thefirst time on national TV.
Why do you thinkBayard Rustin is
someone that shouldbe studied today
and that we need to get to know?

CLAYBORNE CARSON: I think he played (01:01:53):
undefined
an important rolein what I think
was the most importantmovement of the 20th century.
And that is thatmovement to bring
about racial reform in theUnited States, everything
from the 1954 SupremeCourt decision,
through the assassinationof Martin Luther King.

(01:02:15):
During that time,this country changed
in such fundamental ways.
And here, you have the personwho is at the center of that
through all of that time.
And I think thatthat's remarkable
that we have a chanceto kind of understand

(01:02:35):
someone who isfundamentally important
and yet not wellunderstood, someone
who was there for somuch of American history
but because of the prejudicesthat many people have,

(01:02:58):
about homosexualityand the gay life,
kind of refused to see that.
And I think thatthat's something--
I compare it insome ways to women,
who were at the center of somany of the important changes.

(01:03:20):

People, like Ella Baker, forexample, who were at the center
but had to play not atthe front of the stage.

JAMIE RICHARDSON: Supporting roles. (01:03:32):
undefined

CLAYBORNE CARSON: Supporting roles, yes. (01:03:33):
undefined
A wonderful word to use,the supporting players.
Coretta would be anotherexample of that, I think,
because she wasnot only a woman,
but she's the wife of a leader.
People don't seem tounderstand that it's hard

(01:03:53):
to think of Martinexcept with Coretta,
because, one of the ways Iput it is that Martin becomes
political, in 1955,because women in Montgomery
organize a movement.
Coretta, when shemeets Martin, she

(01:04:16):
has been a delegate toa political convention.
He has not voted yet.
You have to kind of see thingsthe way they actually happen.
She's the older partnerin this relationship.
She's the one whois, in a sense,
seeing something in him,that he probably doesn't even

(01:04:38):
see in himself.
Because she alreadyis political.
And so I think that that'swhat I think about Rustin.
He allows us to understandthat sometimes there
are these people who playthese important roles.
And for reasonsbeyond their control,

(01:04:59):
they have to play these rolesby staying in the background,
letting somebody elsebe in the foreground.
And I think that that's animportant lesson for all of us
to learn, that there is alwaysgoing to be the background
players, who are,nonetheless, fundamentally
important in termsof understanding

(01:05:21):
how change happens.
And we always find them.
And historians loveto discover them.
If not for this person, whoyou've never heard of before,
a lot of these changeswould not have taken place.
Well, I think that'strue of Bayard Rustin.

MATT PORTER (01:05:40):
Dr. Carson, thank you
so much for helpingus shed light on one
of those background players.
And I appreciate your time.

JAMIE RICHARDSON: Thank you so much. (01:05:46):
undefined

CLAYBORNE CARSON (01:05:47):
Thank you.
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JAMIE RICHARDSON (01:05:58):
If you're interested in learning more
about the March on Washingtonfor Jobs and Freedom,
check out our podcast pageat jfklibrary.org/jfk35,
for images, documents, and oralhistories about the March from
the JFK library's archives.

MATT PORTER (01:06:12):
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email us [e-mail],
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If you liked whatyou heard today,
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Thanks for listeningand have a great week.

(01:06:33):
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