August 19, 2024 • 34 mins
U.S. track star Gabby Thomas recently won three gold medals at the Paris Olympics. To celebrate, we’re sharing Maya’s conversation with Gabby that took place shortly after the athlete’s Olympic debut in Tokyo. Gabby explains why her relationship with running isn’t as straightforward as you might think, and how competing interests have continually led her to question whether running is the path she wants to pursue.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin, Hey, slight Changers. I cannot believe the Olympics are over.
I am in total denial over here, as I've been
(00:36):
tuning in most evenings to watch the coverage this Olympics.
I followed so many sports, but there was one athlete
in particular that I was very excited to watch, and
that's US track star Gabby Thomas. I actually interviewed Gabby
on A Slight Change of Plans back in twenty twenty one,
and she absolutely crushed it in Paris. So she won
(00:58):
her first individual gold medal in the two hundred meter
race and then went on to win two more gold
medals in team relay races. When I spoke with Gabby
on the show after her Olympic debut in Tokyo, she
was incredibly open about her young life and her complicated
relationship with track and field. She defied many of the
(01:19):
stereotypes I had around what someone has to be like
in order to become an Olympian. Gabby's thoughtful reflections really
embody the spirit of A Slight Change of Plans, and
they struck me even more powerfully after her wins in Paris.
I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. When I first
(01:41):
heard about Gabby's ascent in track and field, I assumed
her relationship with running was a relatively straightforward, one passion
at an early age match with a singular focus. But
that wasn't the case. I discovered that Gabby had competing
interests and as a result, her focus was pulled in
different directions over the course of her life, especially during
(02:02):
her time as a Harvard undergrad, and this tension has
led Gabby to continually question which path she to take.
At times, She's even considered whether she should quit track altogether.
And so, because the show is all about how we
navigate those big inflection moments in our lives, I thought
we could learn a lot from Gabby's story of change.
(02:25):
I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,
a show about who we are and who we become
in the face of a big change. So I'd love
(02:46):
to start by going all the way back to your childhood.
I think one thing a lot of people might not
know about your story is that growing up you had
no interest in being an athlete, right you wanted to
study neurobiology. And I'm wondering if you can tell me
more about your family and how it led you down
that path.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
In terms of going into neurobiology, that came from very
personal experiences within my own family and just seeing how
my brothers who are neuro atypical and who they are
and how they navigated life. One of my younger brothers
has autism. He has Aspergers and he was diagnosed at
(03:26):
the age of four, I believe, and just watching how
he navigates the world and how the world isn't exactly
built for him, but he's so special and amazing in
his own way. And then I have my twin brother
who just battled Adhd I believe he was diagnosed at eight,
and going through that and going through the school system
and having to deal with that and having things not
(03:47):
really be adopted towards you, but you know, they have
to adapt towards the world.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
That they're living in.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So at the end of the day, at this point,
I decided that I wanted to study the nervous system
and just explore that area.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And I'm wondering, Gaddy, was there a specific moment in
your life where you thought, Okay, this is what I
have to do with my life.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, there was definitely a moment when I was in
high school, this random morning getting ready for school, My mom,
my twin brother, and I were all in the kitchen,
sitting at the kitchen table, just getting ready like we
normally do.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I was fixing a bowl of cereal.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
My brother was just grabbing his backpack getting ready to go,
and my mom had asked him if he had taken
its medication for school that day, and he said no,
And of course, you know, she's thinking, well why not,
because this is your normal. We should be taking medication
so that you can go and focus. Then he had
mentioned that he could not take the side effects anymore,
he didn't like how it made him feel. And for me,
(04:41):
what I had noticed in the weeks, even months prior
to that exact moment, was that my brother was very
different from the brother that I had grown up with.
He was just this very very active and fun and
silly kid. And then you notice as he would switch
the medication, he just seemed so so somber and just
(05:04):
not quite himself. And I think we all noticed it,
and my mom had gotten to a point where she
did not know what to do, and the frustration just
set in and my mom just started crying I had
never seen her cry like that, and I think it
was very it was shocking for me, probably for my
twin brother too, but definitely very shocking for me to
(05:24):
witness that and to see that frustration and just not
knowing what steps to take next. And so I think
in that moment, yeah, I was very curious about it.
I was wondering, well, why is it, Why is this
his only option? Why is it that he has to
be altering himself and who he is? So I was, Yeah,
I was maybe sixteen at this time, and I decided
(05:46):
that I wanted to go into neurobiology and study it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, I mean I can imagine as his sister, just
feeling so helpless, like, why is he having to make
this trade off between feeling like himself and getting his
schoolwork done?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That's not right? And it's also as his twin sister, right.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I just I grew up with him and I
did everything with him, and we just did everything together,
and he was my best friend growing up.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And she just see.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That kind of helplessness from someone who truly is just
feels like a part of me was it was pretty shocking.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Wow, that's so beautiful. I mean, I can hear the
passion and curiosity in your voice even now, you know,
just talking about this, I love to pivot to running
for a moment. I love the fact that you've been
able to occupy these two very distinct worlds in your life,
you know, track and public health. And also there's been
(06:39):
so many ebbs and flows in your drive and motivation
along the way, and to me, that's a part of
your story that feels so relatable. I can't relate to
being an incredibly fast runner, though. Note please that I
was on the cross country team in high school and
it was notably a walk on team, which is the
only reason that I was on the cross country team
(07:00):
in high school that I did log in my five k's. Anyway, Yeah,
the part that's so relatable to me is that you know,
we all question at some point or another whether we're
on the right path or whether we should change course.
And it was so reassuring for me, and I'm sure
we'll be so reassuring for so many listeners that you
fall into this camp too. I so appreciated the fact
(07:24):
that you've said you didn't actually love running it first.
And the reason I love that, Gavy is because it runs.
So counter to the typical romantic story you hear from Olympians,
right that it was like love it first step or
love it first jump or whatever you know you hear
out there, and so you know your story. It just
feels kind of normal and an interesting way, right. It
(07:45):
shows that passion can be cultivated. And so just bring
me back to your first encounter with running.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I'm wondering what that exposure was like.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, it's actually very funny that you bring that up,
because a lot of times I do just kind of
feel like such a phony, being like the only pro
track athlete who didn't want to go into track and field.
Whenever I talk about it with people, it's always like,
what are you talking about? So, what are you doing here?
You can cultivate it. But yeah, so I got into
track in middle school. My mom forced me to do it,
(08:15):
and at the time I didn't want to go. None
of my friends were doing it, and I, quite frankly,
I didn't want to run. Soccer was my first love,
and they knew I was fast because I would run
the ball in soccer and that was all I knew
about running, and I knew I didn't want.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But I ended up going and being on the team
and just running really fast, and from then on it
was almost as if I didn't really have a choice
but to do track and field because I was winning
every race that I was put in, whether I just
varied across a sprints and then even the jumps, So
I was kind of in this position where I felt
obligated to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Tell me more about that, because that is so interesting,
right that when we see success in ourselves, even if
it doesn't align with an active passion, we feel compelled
in some way, like we owe it to the world
or owe it to ourselves.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's exactly how I felt.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
That's exactly how I felt. I felt like I just
owed it to the world. You have all these people
who are congratulating me, telling me how proud they were
of me, and they were so happy to have me
on the team and have me running. I just felt
like I would have been a very big disappointment if
I did not continue to run.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's a very weird feeling, and.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
In hindsight, it's easy to say, Okay, well, then why
did you continue to do it? But I think that's
a lot of time. That's how we operate, and you
want to be successful so badly that sometimes you're just
willing to like overlook whatever is making you happy. Actually,
it is this interesting thing that we do in society
where you kind of just don't want to waste your talent, right,
And I had that talent, and at the end of
(09:44):
the day, you know, I do find that people do
enjoy things that they're good at, and that is a
true statement. But at the time, I didn't, you know,
that was fine. I just continued to do it and
I just found joy in the little parts of it,
made some friends on the team, and you know, you
just find little aspects that you like.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
But ultimately track wasn't. I didn't want it to be
my thing.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And then at some point, you know, I kept doing
it through middle school, and then it was my software
year in high school when I actually started to enjoy
it and set goals for myself and actually be pretty
motivated and determined in the actual sport.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
What do you think changed for you? What led you
to suddenly start articulating these goals. It turned into a
thing you were doing for grudgingly to a thing that
was actually driving you day to day.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, part of it was I'm like, if I'm going
to be here every day in the spring, then I
should probably figure out a way to love it. But
the biggest part of it was I had a coach
who was pushing me a lot and actually just taught
me a lot about working hard and actually getting out
what you put in, and that's something that I had
(10:51):
not really experienced before. So it was kind of just
a mindset shift that was like, you know, it actually
kind of transcended track and field itself and it more
just became something about me growing as a person. So
it really wasn't about loving the running itself, loving running
that two hundred meters, but it was more like, Okay,
(11:12):
if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna work hard
here and then I'm going to see the results.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
And that was rewarding part that that I found to
enjoy about it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Were there any role models you had in this space,
anyone you saw crushing it out there that.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Let you up. Yeah, Well, Allison Felix was always my
role model.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I remember when I was gosh, I had to be
in middle school at my grandmother's house and the Olympic
Trials were on and my mom told me to turn
on the TV because there was someone on the screen
that just reminded her of me. She had these long
legs and she was just absolutely crushing it with grace
and poise, And at the time I thought nothing about it.
(11:49):
I said that is great for her, and my mom
was like, you could be an Olympian one day, and
I'm like, okay, sounds great. Mom, so happy for Allison,
but that's not my path. I just never considered it.
And after that, you know, I followed Allison's career a
little bit, but again I wasn't following professional track and
field that closely. It's not something I inspired to do
(12:12):
because I didn't know that it was something that I
actually could do, especially for someone who just didn't do
you know, club track or any like club sports like that.
So I never paid that much attention to it.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I also didn't pay much attention to my cross
country skills similar similar you know, not it had nothing
to do with lack of ability or you know, slow
times or anything like that. So you have this great coach,
you're performing well in high school, but then there is
this moment where you considered quitting running altogether when you
were just graduating from high school? What is it that
(12:43):
led you to continue on at that moment in time.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So there was a lot of that back and forth
throughout my entire college career where I was thinking, is
track and field right for me?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Is this the path that I want to go down?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know, taking opportunities for me? At this point? You
know what where am I going to go from here?
And there are so many things that I wanted to accomplish,
especially after landing at Harvard University, I thought, you know,
there are just so many things I can steady that
will take a lot of time. If I want to
do labs that will take a lot of time. If
I want to study abroad, that will take a lot
of time, And I don't know if I can do both.
(13:17):
I was taking this course sick and tired of being
sick and tired, and it sparked an interest in me
in sociology and biology.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And there were other.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Things on campus that I wanted to be a part of,
other organizations and extracurriculars that I wanted to be a
part of. A lot of social things that I wanted
to be a part of because That's also the fun
part of Harvard is like meeting all of these really
fascinating and interesting people, and it was finding that balance.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
It was very very hard for me to do.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit
more about this really critical class you took at Harvard,
which seems to have led you to double down on
your commitment to working in the public health space. Can
you tell me more about the class.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, So, Sick and Tired of being sick and Tired
was this freshman seminar that I took in the fall,
and it was about health disparities and racism and medicine,
something that I had never been familiar with. We're not
taught that in school. We're not taught that in high school,
especially not in the white communities that you know, I
was growing up in. It was when we were learning
(14:17):
about the Tuskegee Syphilist Study and we were learning about
Henrietta Lacks, and these two stories were just great examples
of how black bodies are disregarded in medicine, and it
was just very very mind blowing and very impactful.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I want to talk about this moment I read about
where you're taking this class it's giving you all sorts
of new insights about the depths of medical racism that
plague our country's history and also our country's present. And
then you speak to your mom about it.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So my mom is actually a rockster in her own right.
So she is an education and her whole objective in
life is to fight racism and education, right, and so
she's always been one to just fight racial injustice. But
she's never kind of we never had that conversation right
about my career, and she's never forced any type of
career on me. So I think when I called her
(15:10):
and told her about what I was studying and I
felt like this fiery passion about it, she was like, yes,
like this is what you know. We owe it to
the world to fight these injustices. And she told me,
you know that I'm put in this position and it's
not a coincidence, and that this is what I was
meant to do, and that it's my responsibility, just as
(15:30):
a black woman, with this opportunity and with this platform,
to go into it and fight injustice. And so that
that's something that really stuck with me and inspired me because.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
She she did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And you know, when I look back and I think
where my mother came from. She came from just complete
poverty in Mobile, Alabama and worked her way through school
being you know, just finishing and going through undergrad to
grad school to PhD and using her experience and her
mastery and her opportunity to pay it forward and to
(16:04):
fight for people who are underserved in the world. So yeah, absolutely,
my mom inspired me so much to just pay it
forward and fight the injustices that I'm that I witness.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
So Harvard Gaddy is falling in love with public health
and you know, aspiring public health official who's helping to
bridge racial gaps in the system, racial inequity, and yet
this track thing keeps happening to you. It sounds like, right,
and it's it's just so fascinating for you to have
learn more about you because it just it feels like
(16:34):
running was this continual thing.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That you just kept falling into.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Right, It's like this afterthought, but eventually it's just hard
for you to deny just how remarkable your potential is.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Right is that?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Am I accurate in capturing it in that way?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
What it was?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So yeah, my freshman year track was an afterthought and
I hated that, and it was something that I was
incredibly insecure about just being on the team. And you know,
there's this culture of just being very intense and being
all in and very committed, and I was going through
the motions of that because you know, I was doing that.
(17:14):
I was showing up every day on time when I
went to the track. I put my one hundred percent
all into it. But it was so hard for me
right to actually make that a mental priority the way
that other things were for me, especially just growing up
with education being the number one priority and that always
was and sports were always just something that you did
(17:36):
after school.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And so.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
My freshman year, after I finished it, it became even
harder because I was doing research at Boston Children's Hospital
on rut syndrome, which is a form of autism. And
I wanted to get my foot in the door right
in research and the neurobiology, and I wanted to have
that experience because I was afraid that if I didn't,
then I might fall behind, I might fall behind all
(18:01):
of my peers who were doing and pursuing their passions.
But at the same time, that was an Olympic Trials
year and I was running so fast season, and the
season just kept going. I had to go to regionals,
and then I had to go to Nationals, and then
next with Olympic trials, and so that summer I was
balancing working my research job and then also doing track
(18:24):
and field at the end, and also working at the
dry cleaners because I had to make money, and so
it was very stressful summer for me, and I felt
like I was being pulled in every direction and also
just trying to be a human and live my life
and have that balance. And so I think what ended
up making me a little bit resentful of track and
field during that freshman summer was that I was not
(18:47):
able to put in the hours that I wanted to
at my research opportunity, and I felt like I was
losing so much of that opportunity on this end of
my life because I had to be all in for
track and field. You know, once you travel to a meet,
you can't halfway travel. Your body is fully there and
you're present there and that's what you have to do.
And I couldn't be present at my lab and it
(19:08):
frustrated me, and it made me very very nervous and
insecure about just what I was going to do outside
of the track world, and that definitely carried into my
sophomore year. It was an Olympic year. That was YO
twenty sixteen. And the thing about the trials in twenty
sixteen is that they actually went really well from me.
I got sixth place in the final in the two
(19:28):
hundred and had ran alongside Alison Felix, right, which is
this amazing and wild dream that I couldn't believe was happening.
But somehow I was still resentful about it, you know,
And I've never actually admitted that out loud anywhere to
anyone except for right now, but that's how I felt.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Look, Gadby, I love your candor, and I totally understand
why it's been so hard to admit that, because when
we admit that we feel resentful about something, we worry
that in turn we'll face the critique. Shouldn't she just
be grateful that she's been given all these gifts, as
though we're not entitled to feel the things that we
feel as move about in this world, which you absolutely
(20:10):
are allowed to do. And so I think sharing that
actually is going to make a lot of people feel
more comfortable admitting that to themselves because a lot of
us are out in the world trying to meet other
people's expectations, feeling like we owe the world something, but
maybe it's not the right choice for us. And sometimes
the first step is just saying this mental calculation just
(20:31):
isn't working for me, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I was at a crossroads at this point where I
had to decide what mattered to me and what was
my priority, and oh man, so I decided to just
take a trip to Senegal for eight weeks and completely
reset and not worry about any of it. And in Senegal,
I studied the culture and the religion. Then I had
a fun cohort of people, and I didn't train on
(20:57):
a track for a single second. I didn't do any
neurobiology work for a single second. And I just did
what I wanted to do. And I came back and
was actually I had a very clear mind, and that
a very clear headspace of what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Huh, say more about that, How did it bring you clarity,
having this reset moment or this brief respite from the
stresses of your daily life.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I didn't expect it to be like that, so I
didn't take the trip thinking, oh, I'm just going to
reset and figure out what I want to do in
my life. I think just stepping away from that and
having the freedom and the liberation to just think for
myself and be myself and be it so far away
the thousands of thousands of miles from any of the
pressure that was being put on me back home. It
(21:45):
was not having access to social media for majority of
the time, so not even being able to contact people
who are asking me to do something or encouraging me
to do something one way or another. I was just
completely myself and everything was just completely simplified. So it
shifted my perspective. I came back and I thought, why
(22:08):
not just do exactly what I want to do? And
I knew what I wanted what I didn't want to
do when I got back there. I knew that I
didn't want to stress myself out trying to strike this
balance between between school and track. I just had kind
of let all that anxiety go and all that pressure go,
at least for that time. And so my my junior year,
(22:29):
I somehow just it all just kind of fell together.
In the classroom. I started taking these fun sociology courses
that complimented by biology courses and track and field just
went very well for me that year, and that ended
up being my breakout year where I broke the collegiate
record and won the NCAA Championship, which was just ironic
(22:51):
because I had not even finished my sophomore season. So
I think a lot of people were just incredibly shocked
that I would I would come back after that and
not having trained all summer just to.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Go do that. But it was just it was a
mindset shift. It just clicked. Everything came together my junior
year and I was just how much happier.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
And you enjoyed running your junior year? Is that right
to say.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I enjoyed it? Yes? And I enjoyed running.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I enjoy like I enjoyed being on the track, and
I enjoyed racing, And that is genuinely when I actually
loved it.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I'm wondering, Gabby, tell me if you think this hypothesis
is right. But it does feel like, I mean, nothing
changed about the workouts, nothing changed about how grueling it
is to be an athlete, But it does seem like
what changed coming out back from Senegal is that you
were finally running on your own terms. It was finally
a decision that you felt you were making that the
(23:43):
world wasn't making for you. And maybe that's where that
joy came from.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I think one hundred percent. I think I had taken
everything and just put it on my own terms, completely
running on my own terms, deciding not to be pigeonolled.
Nothing was made for me. I think that that made
the difference.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
After the break, we'll hear all about Gabby's journey to
the Olympics. We'll be back in a moment with a
slight change of plans. I've got to talk about the
Olympics and your journey to the Olympics. Oh my gosh,
(24:22):
tell me about the twenty twenty one US Olympic trials.
I have watched that video on loop. It is one
of the most joyful human moments that, oh my god,
this is your story to tell.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that is definitely the most joyful moment of my life.
I think that realization that I was crossing the line,
in the realization that I was going to the Olympics
right was the first thing that I was very excited about.
And I realized that, you know, halfway down the street
at the end of my two hundred meters that I'm
going to make this Olympic team.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That's Thomas, Thomas is going to Dan Hello, timeline.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
The line, don't win that moment two day, Thomas is
going to Tokyo twenty one six.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And then I realized that I was coming in first
and winning a national championship and that I was definitely
making this Olympic team.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
And that was the most joyous moment of all.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But then there was a realization that my time was
the second fastest time ever ran behind flow Jo and
everyone knows flo Jo, And then it was just unbelievable
for me. I couldn't even hide how excited I was.
You were not advised to throw your hands in the
air before you finish the sprint race, but I couldn't
help it.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I pictured that. You have no idea how many people
yelled at me.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
We were all throwing our hands in the air for you.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Okay, yeah, Everyone's like, oh, you know, you shouldn't have
done that. I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And just the excitement was I can't even explain it.
It was such an amazing feeling. I pictured the moment
so many times in my head before actually running the race.
And then to have that visualization come to life was
an amazing experience, and especially because leading up to that
moment just I don't know if people realize, but trials
(26:11):
is the most stressful thing that I think any any.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Athlete has will ever do.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
The entire two weeks that I was there, I did
not eat or sleep because it was just so anxiety inducing.
And it's just pretty much, you know, for a track athlete,
it's just you versus the track, so there is there
are no other factors that go into it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
There's nobody else you can blame. It's really just you
and what you've put in.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So it just made it that much better when I
actually did make the team, because we all know that
the Olympic being postponed due to COVID was a whole craziness.
I you know, I picked up my entire life and
moved to Austin, Texas to make this Olympic team. So
everything needed to work out, and so I'm very very
grateful that it did.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, and You've said that when you had this magnificent
performance at trials, all of a sudden there was a
mindset shift again right where you're going from running track
to now competing for gold at the Olympics, which is
obviously an exceptional version of a shift, but I do
think it's very relatable for so many of us that
there are these key moments in life where suddenly our
(27:21):
goals come into sharp focus and it just really changes
the game.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yeah, that is actually very true.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's funny because I had moved to Austin, Texas at
the end of twenty nineteen with the intentions of making
the Olympic team and then very possibly just moving on
from track and field after accomplishing that and pursuing public
health or pursuing a career that I wanted, you know,
something else that I wanted to do with, you know,
going to school and getting a master's in public health
(27:47):
and then working after that. But after I made the
team with a time like that, yeah, suddenly I decided, Okay,
well now I can actually go for a gold medal.
And so that was it was such a rapid shift
and so rapid and huge, and I just felt it
so holy.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And then, you know, when I was at the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
It was a shift because now decided that I'm probably
going to continue running for through the next Olympics, and
that just wasn't what I had in mind before. It
was definitely a change in plans, and so now I'm
just I'm focused on that, right And now I'm focusing
on World Championships this next year, and then World Championships
again and then the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
By the way, I'm glad you omitted the slight part
of the change in plants. I think this is a
sizeable change in plans. I've got rid of the cheeky slight. Yeah,
I was sizable.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
So how has this influenced how you see the coming years?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So, you you're, from what I understand, currently pursuing your
masters in epidemiology in Texas. You said you are competing
or you plan to compete in the World Championships. Is
this now the new balancing act for Gabby Thomas?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, you know, I do what I can, and so yeah,
right now, I'm currently getting my masters in public health,
specifically epidemiology and healthcare administration, and I am still competing
and I plan to be competing in track and field
for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh sorry, I was gonna say, you know less. Listeners
think it was like a super clear cut decision. Again,
from what I understand, you did think you might quit
track again even after the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Is that right? Yeah, I did think. I did think
I might quit, or i'll call it retire, retire. I
feels a little nicer than quitting.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Okay, Daddy was on record is potentially wanting to retire.
Can you can you tell me more about about that decision,
because like, again, look, I think it's very easy for
all of us to look at you and be like
Gabby Thomas, that girl's got it figured out, and and
knowing that even in that moment after winning these two
medals at the Olympics, you're still like, eh, maybe maybe
(29:52):
I'm done. You know, in those moments, what's the calculation
you're doing in your head? Like what would need to
be in what needs to be in place for you
to say, Okay, yeah I'm continuing running.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
It's actually really funny because I decided that the reason
why I want to retire or very possibly thought about retiring,
was because like, just like in college, I think it
was a similar thing where there were so many things
that I wanted to pursue, and I was told that
as a pro athlete that you had to fully commit
to being a professional athlete, and what I learned in
(30:28):
the last year was that that was not the case,
and I had to take a risk, and I was
told that I may have been doing too much and
that I was very risky. Again, I was told not
to move to Austin, Texas during an Olympic year. I
was told that I should not be taking classes, I
should not be working while training. It was doing too much.
(30:50):
And I realized it wasn't. And the reason that is
is because I loved everything that I was doing, and
everything that I was doing was recharging and it was
fueling me. So when I was in school, I couldn't
wait to get to the track, and when I was,
you know, at the track, I couldn't wait to go
back and just hang out and be in my class
and not be dying by four hundreds.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So they both kind of like recharged each other.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And so when I realized that, I thought, Okay, well,
I can definitely do both at a great level, and
so why not do it? And if there ever comes
a time where I do feel like it's too much,
then I'll dial it back a little bit. Or if
there's ever a time where I feel like I need
to shift gears because I'm like, hey, I don't like
what I'm doing anymore.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I think that's okay too. The only real pressure I
feel is the external pressure.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Right. It's like this idea they nicknamed me wonder Woman,
that I'm doing all of these things and I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Them all so well.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, I would hate to let anyone down. But you know,
at the same time, I am doing all of these
things well because I continue to choose me and to
choose what makes me happy. So if I want to
shift gears again one day after getting my master's in
public health, I am one hundred percent okay with that.
If one day I wake up and decide that track
is not for me, then I'm okay with that too.
But for now, they're both going well, and I'm having
(32:03):
so much fun and I'm loving it. I'm loving my
life and I'm loving the decisions and choices that I've
made for myself. And I I'm deciding to continue to
choose both.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Thank you, Gaby, thank you.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
It's just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week, and I
really mean next week when I talk with psychologist Angela
Duckworth about the science of grit and how natural talent
and ability will only get you so far.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
I really don't know anybody who has become you know,
world class in economics or at you know, being a
political leader or anything else. You know, a classroom teacher,
a nurse like without you know, just years and years
of effort.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive
produced by me Maya Shunker. The best part of creating
this show is getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight
Change family. This includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guera,
our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek
our associate producer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louis
(33:38):
Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there,
and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Wae.
You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
at doctor Maya Shunker, and please remember to subscribe, share
(33:59):
and rate the show to help get the word out.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
See you next week.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I don't plan on retiring anytime soon. Maybe when I'm
thirty five.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You're telling me it's too late, Gabby, because I turned
thirty six in a few weeks. My dreams are Overdy's
going to require thirty five, folks, I'm over the hill.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I know actually quite a few thirty five year olds
who actually competed for US.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I did very well. Chance, Yeah, it's still a fighting chance.
Pushkin, Hey, slight Changers. I cannot believe the Olympics are over.
I am in total denial over here, as I've been
(00:36):
tuning in most evenings to watch the coverage this Olympics.
I followed so many sports, but there was one athlete
in particular that I was very excited to watch, and
that's US track star Gabby Thomas. I actually interviewed Gabby
on A Slight Change of Plans back in twenty twenty one,
and she absolutely crushed it in Paris. So she won
(00:58):
her first individual gold medal in the two hundred meter
race and then went on to win two more gold
medals in team relay races. When I spoke with Gabby
on the show after her Olympic debut in Tokyo, she
was incredibly open about her young life and her complicated
relationship with track and field. She defied many of the
(01:19):
stereotypes I had around what someone has to be like
in order to become an Olympian. Gabby's thoughtful reflections really
embody the spirit of A Slight Change of Plans, and
they struck me even more powerfully after her wins in Paris.
I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. When I first
(01:41):
heard about Gabby's ascent in track and field, I assumed
her relationship with running was a relatively straightforward, one passion
at an early age match with a singular focus. But
that wasn't the case. I discovered that Gabby had competing
interests and as a result, her focus was pulled in
different directions over the course of her life, especially during
(02:02):
her time as a Harvard undergrad, and this tension has
led Gabby to continually question which path she to take.
At times, She's even considered whether she should quit track altogether.
And so, because the show is all about how we
navigate those big inflection moments in our lives, I thought
we could learn a lot from Gabby's story of change.
(02:25):
I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,
a show about who we are and who we become
in the face of a big change. So I'd love
(02:46):
to start by going all the way back to your childhood.
I think one thing a lot of people might not
know about your story is that growing up you had
no interest in being an athlete, right you wanted to
study neurobiology. And I'm wondering if you can tell me
more about your family and how it led you down
that path.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
In terms of going into neurobiology, that came from very
personal experiences within my own family and just seeing how
my brothers who are neuro atypical and who they are
and how they navigated life. One of my younger brothers
has autism. He has Aspergers and he was diagnosed at
(03:26):
the age of four, I believe, and just watching how
he navigates the world and how the world isn't exactly
built for him, but he's so special and amazing in
his own way. And then I have my twin brother
who just battled Adhd I believe he was diagnosed at eight,
and going through that and going through the school system
and having to deal with that and having things not
(03:47):
really be adopted towards you, but you know, they have
to adapt towards the world.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
That they're living in.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So at the end of the day, at this point,
I decided that I wanted to study the nervous system
and just explore that area.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And I'm wondering, Gaddy, was there a specific moment in
your life where you thought, Okay, this is what I
have to do with my life.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, there was definitely a moment when I was in
high school, this random morning getting ready for school, My mom,
my twin brother, and I were all in the kitchen,
sitting at the kitchen table, just getting ready like we
normally do.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I was fixing a bowl of cereal.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
My brother was just grabbing his backpack getting ready to go,
and my mom had asked him if he had taken
its medication for school that day, and he said no,
And of course, you know, she's thinking, well why not,
because this is your normal. We should be taking medication
so that you can go and focus. Then he had
mentioned that he could not take the side effects anymore,
he didn't like how it made him feel. And for me,
(04:41):
what I had noticed in the weeks, even months prior
to that exact moment, was that my brother was very
different from the brother that I had grown up with.
He was just this very very active and fun and
silly kid. And then you notice as he would switch
the medication, he just seemed so so somber and just
(05:04):
not quite himself. And I think we all noticed it,
and my mom had gotten to a point where she
did not know what to do, and the frustration just
set in and my mom just started crying I had
never seen her cry like that, and I think it
was very it was shocking for me, probably for my
twin brother too, but definitely very shocking for me to
(05:24):
witness that and to see that frustration and just not
knowing what steps to take next. And so I think
in that moment, yeah, I was very curious about it.
I was wondering, well, why is it, Why is this
his only option? Why is it that he has to
be altering himself and who he is? So I was, Yeah,
I was maybe sixteen at this time, and I decided
(05:46):
that I wanted to go into neurobiology and study it.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, I mean I can imagine as his sister, just
feeling so helpless, like, why is he having to make
this trade off between feeling like himself and getting his
schoolwork done?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That's not right? And it's also as his twin sister, right.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I just I grew up with him and I
did everything with him, and we just did everything together,
and he was my best friend growing up.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And she just see.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That kind of helplessness from someone who truly is just
feels like a part of me was it was pretty shocking.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Wow, that's so beautiful. I mean, I can hear the
passion and curiosity in your voice even now, you know,
just talking about this, I love to pivot to running
for a moment. I love the fact that you've been
able to occupy these two very distinct worlds in your life,
you know, track and public health. And also there's been
(06:39):
so many ebbs and flows in your drive and motivation
along the way, and to me, that's a part of
your story that feels so relatable. I can't relate to
being an incredibly fast runner, though. Note please that I
was on the cross country team in high school and
it was notably a walk on team, which is the
only reason that I was on the cross country team
(07:00):
in high school that I did log in my five k's. Anyway, Yeah,
the part that's so relatable to me is that you know,
we all question at some point or another whether we're
on the right path or whether we should change course.
And it was so reassuring for me, and I'm sure
we'll be so reassuring for so many listeners that you
fall into this camp too. I so appreciated the fact
(07:24):
that you've said you didn't actually love running it first.
And the reason I love that, Gavy is because it runs.
So counter to the typical romantic story you hear from Olympians,
right that it was like love it first step or
love it first jump or whatever you know you hear
out there, and so you know your story. It just
feels kind of normal and an interesting way, right. It
(07:45):
shows that passion can be cultivated. And so just bring
me back to your first encounter with running.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I'm wondering what that exposure was like.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, it's actually very funny that you bring that up,
because a lot of times I do just kind of
feel like such a phony, being like the only pro
track athlete who didn't want to go into track and field.
Whenever I talk about it with people, it's always like,
what are you talking about? So, what are you doing here?
You can cultivate it. But yeah, so I got into
track in middle school. My mom forced me to do it,
(08:15):
and at the time I didn't want to go. None
of my friends were doing it, and I, quite frankly,
I didn't want to run. Soccer was my first love,
and they knew I was fast because I would run
the ball in soccer and that was all I knew
about running, and I knew I didn't want.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But I ended up going and being on the team
and just running really fast, and from then on it
was almost as if I didn't really have a choice
but to do track and field because I was winning
every race that I was put in, whether I just
varied across a sprints and then even the jumps, So
I was kind of in this position where I felt
obligated to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Tell me more about that, because that is so interesting,
right that when we see success in ourselves, even if
it doesn't align with an active passion, we feel compelled
in some way, like we owe it to the world
or owe it to ourselves.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's exactly how I felt.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
That's exactly how I felt. I felt like I just
owed it to the world. You have all these people
who are congratulating me, telling me how proud they were
of me, and they were so happy to have me
on the team and have me running. I just felt
like I would have been a very big disappointment if
I did not continue to run.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's a very weird feeling, and.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
In hindsight, it's easy to say, Okay, well, then why
did you continue to do it? But I think that's
a lot of time. That's how we operate, and you
want to be successful so badly that sometimes you're just
willing to like overlook whatever is making you happy. Actually,
it is this interesting thing that we do in society
where you kind of just don't want to waste your talent, right,
And I had that talent, and at the end of
(09:44):
the day, you know, I do find that people do
enjoy things that they're good at, and that is a
true statement. But at the time, I didn't, you know,
that was fine. I just continued to do it and
I just found joy in the little parts of it,
made some friends on the team, and you know, you
just find little aspects that you like.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
But ultimately track wasn't. I didn't want it to be
my thing.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And then at some point, you know, I kept doing
it through middle school, and then it was my software
year in high school when I actually started to enjoy
it and set goals for myself and actually be pretty
motivated and determined in the actual sport.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
What do you think changed for you? What led you
to suddenly start articulating these goals. It turned into a
thing you were doing for grudgingly to a thing that
was actually driving you day to day.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, part of it was I'm like, if I'm going
to be here every day in the spring, then I
should probably figure out a way to love it. But
the biggest part of it was I had a coach
who was pushing me a lot and actually just taught
me a lot about working hard and actually getting out
what you put in, and that's something that I had
(10:51):
not really experienced before. So it was kind of just
a mindset shift that was like, you know, it actually
kind of transcended track and field itself and it more
just became something about me growing as a person. So
it really wasn't about loving the running itself, loving running
that two hundred meters, but it was more like, Okay,
(11:12):
if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna work hard
here and then I'm going to see the results.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
And that was rewarding part that that I found to
enjoy about it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Were there any role models you had in this space,
anyone you saw crushing it out there that.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Let you up. Yeah, Well, Allison Felix was always my
role model.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I remember when I was gosh, I had to be
in middle school at my grandmother's house and the Olympic
Trials were on and my mom told me to turn
on the TV because there was someone on the screen
that just reminded her of me. She had these long
legs and she was just absolutely crushing it with grace
and poise, And at the time I thought nothing about it.
(11:49):
I said that is great for her, and my mom
was like, you could be an Olympian one day, and
I'm like, okay, sounds great. Mom, so happy for Allison,
but that's not my path. I just never considered it.
And after that, you know, I followed Allison's career a
little bit, but again I wasn't following professional track and
field that closely. It's not something I inspired to do
(12:12):
because I didn't know that it was something that I
actually could do, especially for someone who just didn't do
you know, club track or any like club sports like that.
So I never paid that much attention to it.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I also didn't pay much attention to my cross
country skills similar similar you know, not it had nothing
to do with lack of ability or you know, slow
times or anything like that. So you have this great coach,
you're performing well in high school, but then there is
this moment where you considered quitting running altogether when you
were just graduating from high school? What is it that
(12:43):
led you to continue on at that moment in time.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So there was a lot of that back and forth
throughout my entire college career where I was thinking, is
track and field right for me?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Is this the path that I want to go down?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know, taking opportunities for me? At this point? You
know what where am I going to go from here?
And there are so many things that I wanted to accomplish,
especially after landing at Harvard University, I thought, you know,
there are just so many things I can steady that
will take a lot of time. If I want to
do labs that will take a lot of time. If
I want to study abroad, that will take a lot
of time, And I don't know if I can do both.
(13:17):
I was taking this course sick and tired of being
sick and tired, and it sparked an interest in me
in sociology and biology.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And there were other.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Things on campus that I wanted to be a part of,
other organizations and extracurriculars that I wanted to be a
part of. A lot of social things that I wanted
to be a part of because That's also the fun
part of Harvard is like meeting all of these really
fascinating and interesting people, and it was finding that balance.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
It was very very hard for me to do.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit
more about this really critical class you took at Harvard,
which seems to have led you to double down on
your commitment to working in the public health space. Can
you tell me more about the class.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, So, Sick and Tired of being sick and Tired
was this freshman seminar that I took in the fall,
and it was about health disparities and racism and medicine,
something that I had never been familiar with. We're not
taught that in school. We're not taught that in high school,
especially not in the white communities that you know, I
was growing up in. It was when we were learning
(14:17):
about the Tuskegee Syphilist Study and we were learning about
Henrietta Lacks, and these two stories were just great examples
of how black bodies are disregarded in medicine, and it
was just very very mind blowing and very impactful.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I want to talk about this moment I read about
where you're taking this class it's giving you all sorts
of new insights about the depths of medical racism that
plague our country's history and also our country's present. And
then you speak to your mom about it.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So my mom is actually a rockster in her own right.
So she is an education and her whole objective in
life is to fight racism and education, right, and so
she's always been one to just fight racial injustice. But
she's never kind of we never had that conversation right
about my career, and she's never forced any type of
career on me. So I think when I called her
(15:10):
and told her about what I was studying and I
felt like this fiery passion about it, she was like, yes,
like this is what you know. We owe it to
the world to fight these injustices. And she told me,
you know that I'm put in this position and it's
not a coincidence, and that this is what I was
meant to do, and that it's my responsibility, just as
(15:30):
a black woman, with this opportunity and with this platform,
to go into it and fight injustice. And so that
that's something that really stuck with me and inspired me because.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
She she did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And you know, when I look back and I think
where my mother came from. She came from just complete
poverty in Mobile, Alabama and worked her way through school
being you know, just finishing and going through undergrad to
grad school to PhD and using her experience and her
mastery and her opportunity to pay it forward and to
(16:04):
fight for people who are underserved in the world. So yeah, absolutely,
my mom inspired me so much to just pay it
forward and fight the injustices that I'm that I witness.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
So Harvard Gaddy is falling in love with public health
and you know, aspiring public health official who's helping to
bridge racial gaps in the system, racial inequity, and yet
this track thing keeps happening to you. It sounds like, right,
and it's it's just so fascinating for you to have
learn more about you because it just it feels like
(16:34):
running was this continual thing.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That you just kept falling into.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Right, It's like this afterthought, but eventually it's just hard
for you to deny just how remarkable your potential is.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Right is that?
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Am I accurate in capturing it in that way?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
What it was?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So yeah, my freshman year track was an afterthought and
I hated that, and it was something that I was
incredibly insecure about just being on the team. And you know,
there's this culture of just being very intense and being
all in and very committed, and I was going through
the motions of that because you know, I was doing that.
(17:14):
I was showing up every day on time when I
went to the track. I put my one hundred percent
all into it. But it was so hard for me
right to actually make that a mental priority the way
that other things were for me, especially just growing up
with education being the number one priority and that always
was and sports were always just something that you did
(17:36):
after school.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And so.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
My freshman year, after I finished it, it became even
harder because I was doing research at Boston Children's Hospital
on rut syndrome, which is a form of autism. And
I wanted to get my foot in the door right
in research and the neurobiology, and I wanted to have
that experience because I was afraid that if I didn't,
then I might fall behind, I might fall behind all
(18:01):
of my peers who were doing and pursuing their passions.
But at the same time, that was an Olympic Trials
year and I was running so fast season, and the
season just kept going. I had to go to regionals,
and then I had to go to Nationals, and then
next with Olympic trials, and so that summer I was
balancing working my research job and then also doing track
(18:24):
and field at the end, and also working at the
dry cleaners because I had to make money, and so
it was very stressful summer for me, and I felt
like I was being pulled in every direction and also
just trying to be a human and live my life
and have that balance. And so I think what ended
up making me a little bit resentful of track and
field during that freshman summer was that I was not
(18:47):
able to put in the hours that I wanted to
at my research opportunity, and I felt like I was
losing so much of that opportunity on this end of
my life because I had to be all in for
track and field. You know, once you travel to a meet,
you can't halfway travel. Your body is fully there and
you're present there and that's what you have to do.
And I couldn't be present at my lab and it
(19:08):
frustrated me, and it made me very very nervous and
insecure about just what I was going to do outside
of the track world, and that definitely carried into my
sophomore year. It was an Olympic year. That was YO
twenty sixteen. And the thing about the trials in twenty
sixteen is that they actually went really well from me.
I got sixth place in the final in the two
(19:28):
hundred and had ran alongside Alison Felix, right, which is
this amazing and wild dream that I couldn't believe was happening.
But somehow I was still resentful about it, you know,
And I've never actually admitted that out loud anywhere to
anyone except for right now, but that's how I felt.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Look, Gadby, I love your candor, and I totally understand
why it's been so hard to admit that, because when
we admit that we feel resentful about something, we worry
that in turn we'll face the critique. Shouldn't she just
be grateful that she's been given all these gifts, as
though we're not entitled to feel the things that we
feel as move about in this world, which you absolutely
(20:10):
are allowed to do. And so I think sharing that
actually is going to make a lot of people feel
more comfortable admitting that to themselves because a lot of
us are out in the world trying to meet other
people's expectations, feeling like we owe the world something, but
maybe it's not the right choice for us. And sometimes
the first step is just saying this mental calculation just
(20:31):
isn't working for me, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I was at a crossroads at this point where I
had to decide what mattered to me and what was
my priority, and oh man, so I decided to just
take a trip to Senegal for eight weeks and completely
reset and not worry about any of it. And in Senegal,
I studied the culture and the religion. Then I had
a fun cohort of people, and I didn't train on
(20:57):
a track for a single second. I didn't do any
neurobiology work for a single second. And I just did
what I wanted to do. And I came back and
was actually I had a very clear mind, and that
a very clear headspace of what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Huh, say more about that, How did it bring you clarity,
having this reset moment or this brief respite from the
stresses of your daily life.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I didn't expect it to be like that, so I
didn't take the trip thinking, oh, I'm just going to
reset and figure out what I want to do in
my life. I think just stepping away from that and
having the freedom and the liberation to just think for
myself and be myself and be it so far away
the thousands of thousands of miles from any of the
pressure that was being put on me back home. It
(21:45):
was not having access to social media for majority of
the time, so not even being able to contact people
who are asking me to do something or encouraging me
to do something one way or another. I was just
completely myself and everything was just completely simplified. So it
shifted my perspective. I came back and I thought, why
(22:08):
not just do exactly what I want to do? And
I knew what I wanted what I didn't want to
do when I got back there. I knew that I
didn't want to stress myself out trying to strike this
balance between between school and track. I just had kind
of let all that anxiety go and all that pressure go,
at least for that time. And so my my junior year,
(22:29):
I somehow just it all just kind of fell together.
In the classroom. I started taking these fun sociology courses
that complimented by biology courses and track and field just
went very well for me that year, and that ended
up being my breakout year where I broke the collegiate
record and won the NCAA Championship, which was just ironic
(22:51):
because I had not even finished my sophomore season. So
I think a lot of people were just incredibly shocked
that I would I would come back after that and
not having trained all summer just to.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Go do that. But it was just it was a
mindset shift. It just clicked. Everything came together my junior
year and I was just how much happier.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
And you enjoyed running your junior year? Is that right
to say.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I enjoyed it? Yes? And I enjoyed running.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I enjoy like I enjoyed being on the track, and
I enjoyed racing, And that is genuinely when I actually
loved it.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I'm wondering, Gabby, tell me if you think this hypothesis
is right. But it does feel like, I mean, nothing
changed about the workouts, nothing changed about how grueling it
is to be an athlete, But it does seem like
what changed coming out back from Senegal is that you
were finally running on your own terms. It was finally
a decision that you felt you were making that the
(23:43):
world wasn't making for you. And maybe that's where that
joy came from.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I think one hundred percent. I think I had taken
everything and just put it on my own terms, completely
running on my own terms, deciding not to be pigeonolled.
Nothing was made for me. I think that that made
the difference.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
After the break, we'll hear all about Gabby's journey to
the Olympics. We'll be back in a moment with a
slight change of plans. I've got to talk about the
Olympics and your journey to the Olympics. Oh my gosh,
(24:22):
tell me about the twenty twenty one US Olympic trials.
I have watched that video on loop. It is one
of the most joyful human moments that, oh my god,
this is your story to tell.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that is definitely the most joyful moment of my life.
I think that realization that I was crossing the line,
in the realization that I was going to the Olympics
right was the first thing that I was very excited about.
And I realized that, you know, halfway down the street
at the end of my two hundred meters that I'm
going to make this Olympic team.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
That's Thomas, Thomas is going to Dan Hello, timeline.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
The line, don't win that moment two day, Thomas is
going to Tokyo twenty one six.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And then I realized that I was coming in first
and winning a national championship and that I was definitely
making this Olympic team.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
And that was the most joyous moment of all.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But then there was a realization that my time was
the second fastest time ever ran behind flow Jo and
everyone knows flo Jo, And then it was just unbelievable
for me. I couldn't even hide how excited I was.
You were not advised to throw your hands in the
air before you finish the sprint race, but I couldn't
help it.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I pictured that. You have no idea how many people
yelled at me.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
We were all throwing our hands in the air for you.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Okay, yeah, Everyone's like, oh, you know, you shouldn't have
done that. I'm like, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And just the excitement was I can't even explain it.
It was such an amazing feeling. I pictured the moment
so many times in my head before actually running the race.
And then to have that visualization come to life was
an amazing experience, and especially because leading up to that
moment just I don't know if people realize, but trials
(26:11):
is the most stressful thing that I think any any.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Athlete has will ever do.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
The entire two weeks that I was there, I did
not eat or sleep because it was just so anxiety inducing.
And it's just pretty much, you know, for a track athlete,
it's just you versus the track, so there is there
are no other factors that go into it.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
There's nobody else you can blame. It's really just you
and what you've put in.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So it just made it that much better when I
actually did make the team, because we all know that
the Olympic being postponed due to COVID was a whole craziness.
I you know, I picked up my entire life and
moved to Austin, Texas to make this Olympic team. So
everything needed to work out, and so I'm very very
grateful that it did.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, and You've said that when you had this magnificent
performance at trials, all of a sudden there was a
mindset shift again right where you're going from running track
to now competing for gold at the Olympics, which is
obviously an exceptional version of a shift, but I do
think it's very relatable for so many of us that
there are these key moments in life where suddenly our
(27:21):
goals come into sharp focus and it just really changes
the game.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yeah, that is actually very true.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
It's funny because I had moved to Austin, Texas at
the end of twenty nineteen with the intentions of making
the Olympic team and then very possibly just moving on
from track and field after accomplishing that and pursuing public
health or pursuing a career that I wanted, you know,
something else that I wanted to do with, you know,
going to school and getting a master's in public health
(27:47):
and then working after that. But after I made the
team with a time like that, yeah, suddenly I decided, Okay,
well now I can actually go for a gold medal.
And so that was it was such a rapid shift
and so rapid and huge, and I just felt it
so holy.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And then, you know, when I was at the Olympics.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
It was a shift because now decided that I'm probably
going to continue running for through the next Olympics, and
that just wasn't what I had in mind before. It
was definitely a change in plans, and so now I'm
just I'm focused on that, right And now I'm focusing
on World Championships this next year, and then World Championships
again and then the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
By the way, I'm glad you omitted the slight part
of the change in plants. I think this is a
sizeable change in plans. I've got rid of the cheeky slight. Yeah,
I was sizable.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
So how has this influenced how you see the coming years?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So, you you're, from what I understand, currently pursuing your
masters in epidemiology in Texas. You said you are competing
or you plan to compete in the World Championships. Is
this now the new balancing act for Gabby Thomas?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, you know, I do what I can, and so yeah,
right now, I'm currently getting my masters in public health,
specifically epidemiology and healthcare administration, and I am still competing
and I plan to be competing in track and field
for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh sorry, I was gonna say, you know less. Listeners
think it was like a super clear cut decision. Again,
from what I understand, you did think you might quit
track again even after the Olympics.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Is that right? Yeah, I did think. I did think
I might quit, or i'll call it retire, retire. I
feels a little nicer than quitting.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Okay, Daddy was on record is potentially wanting to retire.
Can you can you tell me more about about that decision,
because like, again, look, I think it's very easy for
all of us to look at you and be like
Gabby Thomas, that girl's got it figured out, and and
knowing that even in that moment after winning these two
medals at the Olympics, you're still like, eh, maybe maybe
(29:52):
I'm done. You know, in those moments, what's the calculation
you're doing in your head? Like what would need to
be in what needs to be in place for you
to say, Okay, yeah I'm continuing running.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
It's actually really funny because I decided that the reason
why I want to retire or very possibly thought about retiring,
was because like, just like in college, I think it
was a similar thing where there were so many things
that I wanted to pursue, and I was told that
as a pro athlete that you had to fully commit
to being a professional athlete, and what I learned in
(30:28):
the last year was that that was not the case,
and I had to take a risk, and I was
told that I may have been doing too much and
that I was very risky. Again, I was told not
to move to Austin, Texas during an Olympic year. I
was told that I should not be taking classes, I
should not be working while training. It was doing too much.
(30:50):
And I realized it wasn't. And the reason that is
is because I loved everything that I was doing, and
everything that I was doing was recharging and it was
fueling me. So when I was in school, I couldn't
wait to get to the track, and when I was,
you know, at the track, I couldn't wait to go
back and just hang out and be in my class
and not be dying by four hundreds.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So they both kind of like recharged each other.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And so when I realized that, I thought, Okay, well,
I can definitely do both at a great level, and
so why not do it? And if there ever comes
a time where I do feel like it's too much,
then I'll dial it back a little bit. Or if
there's ever a time where I feel like I need
to shift gears because I'm like, hey, I don't like
what I'm doing anymore.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I think that's okay too. The only real pressure I
feel is the external pressure.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Right. It's like this idea they nicknamed me wonder Woman,
that I'm doing all of these things and I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Them all so well.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, I would hate to let anyone down. But you know,
at the same time, I am doing all of these
things well because I continue to choose me and to
choose what makes me happy. So if I want to
shift gears again one day after getting my master's in
public health, I am one hundred percent okay with that.
If one day I wake up and decide that track
is not for me, then I'm okay with that too.
But for now, they're both going well, and I'm having
(32:03):
so much fun and I'm loving it. I'm loving my
life and I'm loving the decisions and choices that I've
made for myself. And I I'm deciding to continue to
choose both.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Thank you, Gaby, thank you.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
It's just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week, and I
really mean next week when I talk with psychologist Angela
Duckworth about the science of grit and how natural talent
and ability will only get you so far.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
I really don't know anybody who has become you know,
world class in economics or at you know, being a
political leader or anything else. You know, a classroom teacher,
a nurse like without you know, just years and years
of effort.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive
produced by me Maya Shunker. The best part of creating
this show is getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight
Change family. This includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guera,
our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosstek
our associate producer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louis
(33:38):
Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there,
and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Wae.
You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
at doctor Maya Shunker, and please remember to subscribe, share
(33:59):
and rate the show to help get the word out.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
See you next week.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I don't plan on retiring anytime soon. Maybe when I'm
thirty five.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You're telling me it's too late, Gabby, because I turned
thirty six in a few weeks. My dreams are Overdy's
going to require thirty five, folks, I'm over the hill.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I know actually quite a few thirty five year olds
who actually competed for US.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I did very well. Chance, Yeah, it's still a fighting chance.
Host
Dr. Maya Shankar
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