Interpol's Paul Banks

While Paul Banks is technically the lead singer of Interpol, he sees himself more as a member of a gang of musicians. Interpol formed in 1997 after lead guitarist Daniel Kessler invited Paul—who was a student at NYU at the time—to watch the band rehearse.

In 2002 Interpol released their era defining album, Turn On The Bright Lights, to widespread critical acclaim. At the time they were lumped together with New York City’s emerging “indie sleaze” movement with bands like The Strokes, and the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. Their sophomore album Antics in 2004 surpassed critics' expectations and further evolved their sound. September marks the 20th anniversary of Antics, and to celebrate, Interpol is embarking on an international tour where they will play the album in full.

On today’s episode Leah Rose talks to Paul Banks about how he wrote the lyrics to key tracks on Antics. Paul also explains why he hasn’t listened to rock music in over 20 years. And he remembers watching a boxing match with John Frusciante and RZA from Wu-Tang, and how John forever changed the way Paul thinks about musicality in hip-hop.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Interpol & Paul Banks songs HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
While Paul Banks is technically the lead singer of Interpol,
he sees himself more as a member of a gang
of musicians. Interpol formed in ninety seven after lead guitarist
Daniel Kessler invited Paul, who was a student at NYU
at the time, to watch the band rehearse. In two
thousand and two, Interpol released their era defining album Turn
On the Bright Lights, to widespread critical acclaim. At the time,

(00:42):
they were lumped together with New York City's emerging indie
sleeve's movement with bands like The Strokes and the Yeah
Yeah Yeahs. Despite being pigeonholed by critics, the bands surpassed
expectations with their sophomore album Antics in two thousand and four,
further evolving their sound. September marks the twentieth anniversary of Antics,
and to celebrate, Interpol is embarking on an international tour

(01:04):
Will they play the album in its entirety? On today's episode,
Rose talks to Paul Banks about how he wrote the
lyrics to key tracks on Antics. Paul also explains why
he hasn't listened to rock music in over twenty years.
He also remembers watching a boxing match with John Fuschante
and Rizza from Wu Tang and how John forever changed
the way Paul thinks about musicality and hip hop. This

(01:30):
is broken record liner notes for the digital age.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I'm justin Mitchman.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Paul Banks.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thank you for doing this, Thank you for being here.
Curious about antics. So you're about to interpose about to
go out on tour and perform the entire album. Have
you ever been to any of these shows where a
band performs an entire album.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
I don't think I have. But the first time that
I remembered happening that I really wanted to go to
was was a while ago, and it was Transam playing
Future World in its entirety, And I feel like that
was almost ten years ago, and it was like at
like Union Pool in Brooklyn, maybe even longer, and so
really like actually like the fact that I even remember

(02:16):
all of that is because I really wanted to go,
so anyway, that maybe predisposed me to feeling okay about it.
I think, you know, we've been asked by like non
like outlets that are not supportive of the band to like,
come and do one of our records, and I've said
no because I feel like I don't like this outlet
and they're not supportive, and I even take it as

(02:37):
a bit of a dig on the rest of our
catalog that they're asking us to do this one record.
So for them, I said no, But for everybody else,
I feel like I actually don't dislike the concept of
doing a whole album in a show. I think it's
actually like a celebration of, you know, a portion of
your catalog, and it's not really a comment on the

(02:57):
rest of your catalog, right, But I think the trans
Am example kind of got me predisposed to be favorable
towards it, and then I think it's like a new
thing that's kind of happening now see a lot of
bands doing it, and rather than see that as some
kind of like gimmick in any way negatively, I actually
think it's really cool. And I think in the world

(03:18):
of music and the business of music, having like a
package to sell or a reason to motivate an audience
to kind of like want to come and see a show,
I think it's like it's good, good, good for us,
good for other bands that have records that people might
want to see top to bottom, and I actually enjoy it.
And I feel like our fan base loves all of
our records, and I think it's fun to just frame

(03:40):
an evening around one in particular and just do a
top to bottom.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah. I saw an old interview with Daniel and the
person interviewing him was talking about Interpol's catalog and they
said the first two albums are master works, and that
sort of made the rest of the discography seems sort
of like it wasn't up to par with the first

(04:06):
two albums. And I felt exactly like what you were saying,
like it was sort of like a dig on all
the material, and I felt like it was kind of
like not the best way to frame the work. I
wonder about like the divide between critics and then the fans. Yeah,
do you feel like you have to sort of block
out the critical voice sometimes?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
I mean, I've blocked out the critical voice for fifteen years,
I think so. Yeah. But at the same time, like
if I was talking to someone that did frame our
first two records in that way as being like these are,
you know, master works, I don't take any of that
stuff personally anymore either. And I think what we were
saying before this interview start about kind of like the

(04:49):
some humility that comes with age. It's like, I'm just
very honored that people care a lot about those first
two records, and I understand the way that like a
band's first effort, like the first emergence, is always going
to have a special place in people's heart. And I
remember very keenly, like a lot of the second record
was written towards the end of writing our first record,
and we had kind of inter band discussions at the

(05:12):
time like let's not take a break after the first one.
That's like go, go go, and kind of really sort
of solidify our entrance on the scene by doing a
one to two punch. So I think even from our
point of view before Antics even came out, we viewed
it as like albums one and two are going to be,
you know, this bundle in a way of like us

(05:34):
making our entrance and then you know, not having a
sophomore slump, but rather kind of like let's really establish ourselves.
And at the time, Carlos wanted a big break and
it was like we had to kind of wrangle him
back to being like, man, this is not the time
to stop right now. Let's let's keep going. So anyway,
I cherished the fact that people love those first two records,
and I think that there is a segment of people

(05:55):
that are like, that's where they that's where they started
and ended with us. But that's cool too, you know,
if you love two records of ours, that's great for me.
It's really interesting. Like I you know, read some of
the feedback now from our fans on message boards and stuff,
and likeur has it's like a new life, and that's
like the first record post Carlos, and I think a
lot of people that were might talk about the first

(06:17):
two as like their own kind of category maybe wouldn't
be fans of Elpintur, but our audience is, you know,
so anyway, I don't take it personally. I don't take
offense to a critic citing one and two is being special.
But I prefer listening to the audience, who you know,
seem to like all of it.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Do you know what's responsible for Elpintour having a new life.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
It's actually it's not so much a new life. I
think it might just be that maybe it's kind of
contrarian for like diehard fans to be like I'm I don't,
you know, it's not about the first two for me,
it's about the fifth, you know, totally. But I also
think Alpinor's is a you know, in our catalog. It's
a really good record. And I think our fourth one
was a It was a great record, but very challenging.
It was a breakup record with Carlos, and then the

(07:00):
fifth one was sort of us trying to figure out
how to do it as a three piece, and I
think there was just some magic to it, and I
think it's aged well with our audience. But I think
all of our records seem to be aging well. It
just takes time for people to come around to them.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
How do you feel in general about talking about lyrics
about lyrics that you've written.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
I don't mind. I just don't know if I have
anything very meaningful to say about, you know, if anything,
I think I can talk about like why I write
lyrics the way I write them, more than like what
am I writing about? If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Are you conscious yourself what you're writing about or is
it more just playing with words and feeling.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
It's more than just playing with words. But there has
definitely been moments where I was of like trying to
cultivate an automatic writing process. Like I think technically the
term automatic writing comes from the Surrealists, and it has
to do with sort of like just like vomiting out thoughts,
and I think trying to kind of like stuff a

(08:03):
straw into your subconscious and just like get that stuff
straight out. And I feel that that phase that I
don't even know if I really see myself there now,
but that phase where I was really into the automatic
writing component, I think it had to do with this
idea that like the pure emotion or the pure experience
of being a person is going to get a little cheap,

(08:25):
and when I try and put it through a prism
of language consciously because I'm going to be trying to
package it for someone's experience of what I'm saying. Right,
I think the true automatic is like just say what
the soul is saying. I mean, in the early days
I looked at it is that I found most lyrics

(08:46):
and most music to be kind of phony, and like
it's about kind of trying to package the experiences of
life into this artificial sort of sit call me kind
of way of like here's a relatable message, or like
here's a story I'm going to tell you. And I
always felt like my experience of life was like way
more chaotic and visceral and emotional, and so I just

(09:06):
whether or not it was like something that I was
intensely trying to do. There was so much that I
wasn't trying not to do, which was like, I don't
want to be fake and just say some dumb shit
that is supposed to be relatable in some digestible way
about this is my experience. It's like life is this
huge mystery of like alienation and pain for me and
anguish and desire, and it's all a massive fog of chaos,

(09:30):
and so why would I write in a way that
isn't honest to that reality? Yeah, now, on the highest levels,
I will look at someone like Bob Dylan in a
song like Spanish Boots of Spanish Leather, which is a
series of letters from a woman and a man back
and forth where she's going on a vacation there together,
and then as she continues writing letters, it becomes clear

(09:53):
that she's not coming back. And then his final message
in his last letter is he's been telling her the
whole time, don't worry about sending me anything. I don't
want you to do anything for me, just come home.
And then finally when she says I'm not coming home,
he says, okay, well, then send me some Spanish boots
of Spanish leather. And that shit is fucking unbelievable. So
I believe at the highest level you can use language

(10:16):
to make very concise messages about the human experience. And
maybe I'm just not there. But then I also think
it's that I just don't care to do that because
I think I like reveling in this sort of chaos
version that I come from.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Are you satisfied with what you write? Is there anything
that you've written that you feel like you've really nailed
it and you've been able to express yourself sufficiently or
do you feel like it's always like not even close
to what you're feeling inside.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
A couple times I've said things that yeah, I think
I'm very happy with Yeah, but you know, but there's
never a solution. I think it's maybe just kind of
like putting words that are evocative of an experience so
closely that someone might feel less alone when they hear it.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
In your mind, what are sometimes when you've gotten close
to where you're you're happy with what you've written, or
you feel like you a publish what you set out
to express.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
I mean, if we you know on antics, for instance,
the song not Even Jail has always been one that
I've been quite proud of. There was a lyric that
came up I saw someone comment recently about and I'd
forgotten this one, but it was you reach out to
emptiness until the reaching out feels empty too. That's off
of a song on Marauder. That's to me is like
that's a truthful lyric of experience and a feeling that

(11:37):
I've had, but it doesn't really provide any solution. It's
just kind of like that's a way of talking about
depression and like the struggle of being depressed. And so
I suppose maybe there's something cheap in that that I'm
just doing a snapshot of a feeling and I'm not
actually putting it in a larger context or like providing
a solution. But I kind of also don't care. I

(11:59):
don't really feel responsible. I don't feel a responsibility to
do better with my lyrics. I think I just do
it for my own satisfaction and benefit. And again all
so like because I have this view about like what
language is. Sometimes I even just kind of find it
kind of funny that, like, you know, like every argument,
every side of any discussion, I feel like I can

(12:21):
always sort of formulate like a viable counterpoint of like
present any argument from any side. And I'm constantly, even
in politics, I'm constantly trying to listen to sort of
like how the other side puts together their stream of logic,
and I'll find like, oh, this is where I feel
like it gets disingenuous, but it's not really like but

(12:42):
the way they're doing it is like you know, most
of the language is true, but then they're kind of
like getting deceitful with this little thing. But like a
lot of people aren't going to pick up that. That's
where they fall into like total bs. So anyway, I
find like language just to be this thing that's like
can be used for such manipulation, and I sort of
feel disdained for participating in the manipulation and the deceit

(13:04):
that language can weaponize. And so I think that's also
part of why my lyrics are often kind of like
they're just like outside of that whole game, Like I
don't want to convince you of anything. I don't want
to pretend to summarize anything. And also, these words themselves
are providing some of the confines to what we're even
able to express. So by sort of reshaping how words

(13:26):
get put together, it's almost like maybe different ways of
thinking can come from that. It's like putting the cart
before the horse, like rather than you have the thought
and find the language for it, like you find the
thought by constructing language, and it's you know that's fun
for me.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, how do you get into that state? Like it
seems like there would be some sort of like transition
that needs to happen from normal life to a place
where you're open subconsciously or you're trying to access this
part of your brain. Is there something that you do?
Is there something you imbibe? Take smoke sit somewhere particular? Like,

(14:05):
how do you get into that place?

Speaker 1 (14:08):
I mean smoke weed? But I don't think it's necessary.
I had a large phase, well no, a couple of
years where I didn't do anything, and I know my
work was I like my work from that phase. I
think it's it's not needed. But I do smoke weed.
I generally smoke weed when I'm playing music. Or writing music.

(14:31):
But the other thing I would say about lyrics that
has to do then it comes to answer your question,
is that also I found in the first days of
Interpol when I was I was writing some poetry and
like doing journaling and things like that, and then I
tried to put some things that I'd already written into
an Interpol song and I immediately was like, that's horrible,
and I hate it because the high hat pattern is

(14:53):
doing this, and I definitely want the vocal to be
completely tailor made to the bassline and the drums, and
I'm not having a single extra syllable or a consonant
in the wrong place or wrong vowel sound relative to
the music. And I realized, like the music is first,
and the kind of like the melody and the cadence

(15:13):
has to be married to the to the music. I
think when you hear like you know, Bob Dylan or
Leonard Cones, sometimes I'll have like a real mouthful of
a line and it's such great poetry that it doesn't matter.
But like I was more interested in, like I don't
want to shoehorn in great lyrics into the song if
the song has a different kind of cadence, So I
just started writing for the music. So the getting into

(15:35):
the place to write lyrics has to do with like
getting into the zone with the music, and that for
me is just a matter of like I could just
take a walk with headphones and then I'll start hearing
vocal ideas and I don't need weed to do that.
I just like to smoke weed and do that.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Does that feel like a gift that you can come
up with vocals and melodic ideas?

Speaker 1 (15:58):
It doesn't feel that way, but I do acknowledge that
it's not something that I think everybody does and can do.
And I can't do that, right, Yeah, no, I will
hear I mean, And that's part what makes my partnership
with Daniel special. Is also that many times when I
try and write vocals for other people's music, I will

(16:18):
just hit my head against the wall and I can't
get anything. And I can get like the garbagest garbage,
like the worst fucking lyrics and the worst melodies, and
even the other person I can sense that they're kind
of like, shit, that's not that thing that I was
looking for from you, right, And so I think that
you know, Daniel and I have a special chemistry where
like his music in particular, I heard loads of things immediately.

(16:42):
I hear like, oh I kind of do that, and yeah,
even more so sometimes than with my own writing. You know,
it's easier to write vocals to Daniel's chord progressions often
than it is to write vocals to my own chord progressions. Yeah.
So I think it's it's a gift, but it's a
fickle gift.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
But how cool that you found each other. I mean
I think about a lot that so many incredible groups
that exist just happened to like go to high school together,
you know, like you think about like outcast like big
Boy and Andre just happen to be in the same
high school at the exact same time and they're like
perfect together.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, And what you're saying about Daniel, it's like that's
just so amazing, Like how do you explain that?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
No, I know, I know what you mean. I think
it's really I guess I was probably thinking about like
idols the other day too, about kind of like how
do you get like such like great vocalist and like
this great guitar player, and like where did they meet?
And like was that guitar player just like being awesome
somewhere until some band came up to him and was like,
do you want to be in this band? And uh, yeah,
So basically to answer, I kind of and I think

(17:47):
that the answer is sort of yes. I think that
like when you're someone who's like a born artist, you
are born to be a musician, You cultivate your own
thing to such a high degree that you're not really
interested in anybody that's not kind of at your level,
and then I think that just automatically weeds out, like
tons of people, and then you when you do find
someone that is sort of either has slaved for their

(18:10):
craft as much as you have or just has a
similar sensibility and has given as much to their craft,
then it's like kind of makes it easy. It's like, Okay, well,
I feel like safe and like my time is worth
it to spend it with you because I see in
you what I see in me, and I haven't seen
that in anybody else, and that's why I don't like

(18:31):
bother jamming with anybody else.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
That's a really cool way to think about it. Yeah,
but oftentimes does partnerships come when people are so young?

Speaker 1 (18:40):
I mean, also, I was not looking to meet somebody.
I wanted to be a solo artist. I had no
interest in being in a band, and I think Daniel
just saw me. We did a study a broad thing
in Paris, and I had my guitar with me and
was trying to busk, and I think he just asked me,
you want to come and see my band Rehearse like
a couple. After we'd known each other for like a

(19:01):
year and a half, and I went and saw him
and he had Carlos in the band, and it was
just like, Okay, this music is so excellent that now
I'm interested in working with other people. But I, you know,
other people had been around, I had jammed with other people,
and I just didn't want to be in a band
until I saw the right band.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
What was it about their sound that you were attracted to?
Do you remember? Was it an energy thing or was
it the sound?

Speaker 1 (19:25):
I mean, it's it's all of those things. And also
just being like light years ahead of everything else I'd
ever heard anybody doing, you know. I mean you meet
a lot of people that are technically proficient, you know,
within anytime, like within a five mile radius, there's like
a thousand guitar players that are better than me at
you know, technically better guitar players, but to be able
to write music that's compelling like they, you know, Daniel

(19:49):
and Carlos were playing PDA when I came to the
first rehearsal, and it's like it was amazing music. And
Carlos was someone who had ad he was in my dorm.
He lived in my dorm, and I already like had
seen him and was like, I love this guy. This
guy's fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
What was he like back then?

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Well, he was in my dorm. I was like, however
old you are freshman year of college. I was like seventeen,
he was probably like nineteen or twenty. And he was
wearing a monk's cassock priests cassick, like the full length
black like cloak. Wow. They had like jet black hair
and like a big crucifix and the yeah, like a
skirt and like a jet black T shirt like skin tight,

(20:29):
and he just kind of like glided like no Sperratu
through like the courtyard. And this is like a college dorm,
which is like a bunch of dumbasses, and like this
fucking no Serazu looking motherfucker, like dead serious in the
elevator and like walking across the courtyard and I was
just like, man, he you know, that's the real deal.
That's that guy's out of his mind. And I love

(20:49):
strange characters, and so I love how he was so
authentically himself. So I hadn't spoken to him. He didn't
seem at all approachable, but I did have like I
was like, oh, that guy's that guy's cool.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I was gonna say, how do you approach a
guy like that? Like what's your opening line?

Speaker 1 (21:04):
I didn't. I just saw him in this. Then I
walked into this rehearsal, I was like, oh, there's that guy.
So that was a good, cool, good start.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Do you remember like how you actually started talking to
him and like how your impression of him changed once
you guys were actually able to just kind of like
shoot the shit.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
I mean it was Carlos was always difficult, but yeah.
And then also it's kind of like an interesting thing
is we didn't be We weren't friends, you know, so
we became friends from writing music together. So it's more
about like there's the respect that like you're worth my time,
Like it's okay with me that you're in this room
writing songs with us. But I think Carlos had like

(21:42):
there's ego battles that went on. Yeah, and I think
I was more, I guess, a little bit more loose,
and I think he was a little bit maybe more
guarded towards me. I think I was like a threat
of something that he had. I think he had something
going on with Daniel, and I think I actually was.
I later came to realize like in some way like
a threat to a like a creative bond that I

(22:04):
think he felt he had with Daniel. And then I
was just some pot smoking, you know, kind of a
little bit looser personality in the mix. So anyway, it
was the glue that sealed us together was respect. That
was you know, at the end of the day, I
was like, yeah, you guys are fucking amazing musicians, so
I'm down to put up with whatever weird ego stuff
is going on. And it was like bumpy in the beginning.

(22:25):
I like quit in the beginning, and then I rejoined
on the on the condition that I'd be the vocalist.
I think was my condition to rejoin, because I wasn't
even the singer in the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
We have to take a quick break. But then We'll
be back with more from Leo Rose and Paul Banks.
We're back with more from Paul Banks and Lea Rose.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Was it hard for you to muster up the confidence
to be a front person?

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Like?

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Where does that come from? And how has that evolved
over time?

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I mean it's interesting, I think, you know, I've never
really seen myself much as a front person. I think
possibly because the bando like it felt like a gang
to me, and it didn't really need a gangle. It
seemed to me sort of more like and I like
the idea of a gang, where like in any given situation,
like one guy can handle it, or one person can

(23:17):
handle this situation, then other person handles this situation and
as a collective you're very strong and it doesn't really
hinge on having like some leader, but I think all
dynamics do. And I think as a band, like Daniel
was sort of the ideological or the strategic leader of
what we do as a band. Yeah, and Carlos was

(23:41):
very wasn't really looking to include my songwriting into what
we were doing, so I never really felt like this
is my band. I felt like I'm a collaborator in
this collective and my role is that I'm the singer,
and I wouldn't really it's not really my personality to
then kind of cop like that. It's something else like

(24:02):
I'm bringing these guys along with me. It's kind of like, nah,
we sort of do this stuff all together, and so
I'm just the one in the center of the stage.
So I never really like had I didn't really try
and pretend to be anything that it wasn't, and I
think that also suited. That's how kind of involved with
how we got the name, Like Interpol was like this
idea of it being a collective where it's like it's
just dudes in black suits and like you don't really

(24:23):
know who the boss is. You know, it's like everyone's
very capable, but it's about the group power rather than individual.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Right, So you're not like the Mick Jagger in the front,
like having to be.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Like no, I mean even when I do solo stuff,
I'm not that kind of performer anyway. So that's what
I mean. I'm like, even in or out of Interpol,
I'm just sort of not I just like an artist.
I don't really view it as like that kind of
performer streak, but I love crazy performers. You know, I
love Carlos, and I love Mick Jagger, and I love

(24:54):
you know, Perry Farrell. Yeah, Kurt Cobain was someone who
sort of didn't seem to be that fussed with trying
to be like a performer in that regard. And I
say this from experience because I saw them live. He
seemed kind of like, I, you know, he's doing his thing.
It's not about like entertaining you with what his body's doing.
It's more like that his music is coming out of him.

(25:15):
And I think I'm sort of that way.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
How old were you when you saw them?

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Probably fourteen or fifteen. I saw them in a bull
ring in Madrid, Spain. It was in utero front row,
front row, yep. Yeah, I was like, I was the
biggest Nirvana fan. I was, yeah, the biggest.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
What do you remember from the show?

Speaker 1 (25:38):
I was interested in the way that Kurt, like, like
how he kind of moved and held his guitar. He
had this kind of like swimmy sort of thing, like
he'd stay like in one spot but sort of like
it's I had this kind of swimmy thing that he
was doing. And I remember, for some reason watching pat'smer
a lot it's again kind of like the live stuff
has never really been. It wasn't so much about like there,

(26:00):
It was a records that meant everything to me. And
I mentioned seeing them live for the kind of like
historic trivia of that, but not Yeah, it wasn't that.
And then I saw them live and everything changed, like
everything had already changed, and then I saw them live.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
You know, have you gotten to meet Chris nova Selk
or Dave Grohl?

Speaker 1 (26:17):
And met Dave Grol once. I'm pretty awkward, so you know,
I didn't really capitalize on that situation. But he just
mentioned that he loved the snare sound on our first record.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Oh that's cool.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, but he seems like a really cool dude, and yes,
so much respect.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
All right, let's run through some of the tracks on Antics.
Let's see so okay, so if there's any memories you
have of like writing these songs, performing the songs, Okay,
how about next exit, Let's just start at the top.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, that was that was fun. I think fondly of
that one. I think we were aware after the first
record that you know, we were being when we started.
We didn't talk about post punk, we didn't talk about
the bands that represent post punk or if they were
talked about around me. I didn't know that there was
genre by that name and that these bands were the

(27:12):
ones that you know, represented it. I think Carlos and
Sam definitely did know all that shit, but it was
sort of like I was like into Nirvana and the Pixies,
and it was a little bit kind of like off
putting to me when the first record came out and
I realized that we were just being contextualized as like,
what this band is doing is derivative of and a
callback to this very specific thing that already happened. Because

(27:35):
in my mind it was like, actually, I thought I
found like three geniuses and we're doing like dope shit together,
and that's what I thought was happening. I didn't realize
that we're actually this thing that you're telling us that
we are. Now I understand it's all completely founded. All
of those assessments and comments make perfect sense to me now,
but I was, you know, young and naive anyway. I

(27:59):
don't know who it was that sort of came up
with the concept for Next Exit, if it was a
Daniel thing or if Carlos went to the Oregon straight away,
but I loved how it sort of represent into something
very unlike what we were seemingly known for. So it's
like a little bit of just like dusty Americana. Even
just that the fact that I felt like Americana, I

(28:19):
kind of felt like, I really like that we're doing
this song, and I really liked that this song is
the first one that we're you know, kind of constructing
like an intro to a record, because it's not what's expected.
It's not cold, it's not you know Dad, it's you know,
like got a completely different vibe and I and I
really liked the dashing of expectations in a way that
was very honest and earn it.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
It's like we're also huge Roy Orbison fans, like everybody
in the band for instance, so it's like genuine to us.
But it felt like, but this is going to be
a little bit of a you know, a left turn
for some people who are expecting something else from us.
So I liked that we did that song.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
How does sequencing work in the band? Who comes up
with the final sequence and what is that process?

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Like? It depends like I sequenced Marauder, Daniel sequenced the
most recent record I think Antics was probably Daniel, but
I think we did kind of debate it and you know,
maybe did some reorganizing. It was likely a group effort,
I think on that one, or maybe we all took
home CDs and like tried to sequence it. I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Seems so hard because there's so many songs. There could
be an infinite number of sequences to sort of like
settle that debate.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
It seems tough, but you know, the music in such
a different intimate way when you've made it so that
it's like everything is so familiar to you, and I think.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
That you it sort of makes sense.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
It sort of makes sense. Yeah, it's not that hard.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Were there other songs that were recorded that were left
off the final version of Antics?

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Good question? Yeah, I think yeah, oh yeah. We tried
to finish this song called that came out later called
we called it Gavalon when it came out, but it
was called Cubed at the time, and that was like
one of our best things that we ever wrote. And
I just couldn't get the fucking lyrics together on that one,
and I think that's why it didn't happen. And I
think song seven also was a a case I just

(30:14):
didn't like that song. That's why that didn't come out,
but its sins come out and I think I think
the fans really like it, but it wasn't my fave. Yeah.
I can't remember other B sides from that record though,
all right?

Speaker 3 (30:26):
What about Evil?

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Evil was one that I spent like a lot of
time on the lyrics and I really enjoyed writing that,
and I felt like that was like a yeah. Actually
for me, it's kind of one of those songs that
was a single for us that I really like. And
I think sometimes the singles are the ones that I'd like,
you know, not as much as some other songs, but Evil, Yeah,
I really enjoyed writing the lyrics to that, and it's

(30:50):
a good song. I like that one.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
How do you usually listen to mixes? Do you take
stuff home with you? Were you burning CDs and listening
to them in like your car or in like a
discmand What was the process for you for really hearing
what had been tracked?

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, I love listening on car stereos, but I think
at the time it would have been like a CD player,
a portable CD player, and for me that would be
because like that's how I listened to my at that time,
we were doing antics. That's how I listen to my
transam and my stereo lab and my John Fruciantes, you know,
on my CD player. So yeah, popping it into the
same format that I listened to music I'm enjoying at

(31:31):
the time, That's how I would you know, reference it
and see how it kind of if I get a
vistual kick that way. And then there's you know, this
funny thing with music. It's like there's the honeymoon phase
right around when you're mixing and mastering, where like I
love it and I my heart is totally open to
it and it's like great, and then that ends and
then I like kind of can't listen to it anymore
because I'll only hear shortcomings and things that bother me

(31:54):
about it. Once it's out, yeah, once it's out, yeah,
or even once it's a soon to be out.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Do you think it's because at that point you're letting
go and you don't you're not able to tinker anymore.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Possibly are also just like now everybody else is like,
you know, are going to get all over it, and
I'm gonna have to deal with like people's you know,
the you know there's expectations and then there's like the
actual reaction, and I think it's once it's in the
field of like now people are gonna be satisfied or dissatisfied,

(32:25):
and it's this whole world of like now judgment is
being passed on this music, and I think the moments
before that enters my perspective is a great phase and
then it have to like just turn away from it.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Now, how do you deal with haters? Like if you're
in comments and you're reading what people are saying, like,
do you are you of the mind that you have
to just have a thick skin and sort of like
keep on or how do you how do you deal
with it?

Speaker 1 (32:54):
I think I read like the first half of a
review of like our second or our third record, and
that was the last thing I ever read like critically
about the band, and then I didn't read or pay
attention to anything until like the last record, and then

(33:15):
I guess, like getting more familiar with sort of the
world of Instagram and stuff and like seeing things on YouTube,
I actually, like, do now read comments. I don't read
any critical anything, but I read like audience comments and
and I don't know if it's generally pretty nice, is
what's what I found. It's actually like so, I mean,
I'm sure of the cret If I read any kind
of like actual official review, i'd probably be super pissed

(33:36):
and bummed. But I just haven't done that since like,
oh six.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
Do you read reviews of other bands that you like?

Speaker 1 (33:44):
No, I don't give a shit. No, No, I mean
I and I like, I support the form of criticsism,
you know, I actually I think it's important and I like, yeah,
I like no disrespect, but no, it's not really for
me and I it's even like laughable to even think
about that. I generally kind of know what I like

(34:05):
when I hear it, and that's all I need to know.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
You know, No, that's great. I imagine it could be
soul crushing to put so much into something and then
have somebody who's not even a musician just kind of
like shit on it.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, and they can be so yeah, it's like brutal.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
And it can be so persuasive too, because they can
write a story or for you know, sort of like
subconsciously form an opinion in people's minds about the whole
like impetus of a project or the motivation and then
people just like think that that's reality.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, and also it's like it's really out of sync
with like like I just felt like my process is
more pure than that and like less contrived than that.
And the way they write it is though like, oh,
they were trying to do this and they failed, and
it's like, I don't know. I was just trying to
do cool shit that felt fun actually, and like I
don't really know if I could fail at that, but
you framing it like they were trying to do this
or that. But I mean it's also sometimes criticism is

(34:59):
great and insightful and blah blah blah, but I don't
need to hear about it from my own work totally.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
How did you find John Frschante's work? I think think
it was his first solo that you.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Really liked, neanderalads.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
What was your experience finding that album?

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, I was in a dorm freshman year at NYU
and my roommate was this kid named Phil. Well, we
had seven of us in this dorm, but Phil he
was Chinese American but I can't I can't remember his
last name. And he introduced me to Centradeau and Sebado

(35:38):
and he introduced me to that John Frechiante record Neanderlades
and usually just a T shirt. Yeah, he had some
great music that he was into. But for me, you know,
like Blood Sugar Sex Magic Is was a huge record
for me, and the song I could Have Lied was
one of the most important tracks, you know, in the
early days of starting to play guitar, even before Nirvana,

(35:58):
was the thing that made me decide like that's what
I'm going to do with my life. But you know,
right before that with Blood Sugar, Sa Sex Magic, like
and it's particular like the guitar in Under the Bridge
and the guitar solos and I could Have Lied where
I felt like goosebumps and as like like my thirteen
fourteen year old brain was like going like holy shit

(36:21):
with the with the feeling that this is giving me.
And then you see John Freiantay in the video for
Under the Bridge, It's like, Okay, that's also the coolest
guy to ever do it. Yeah, the whole thing, like
the slouch, just the whole thing, Like he's the fucking goat.
And so that was the impression I had. So when
I heard he's got a solo record, I was like
already kind of like, oh cool, I want to hear that,

(36:43):
and then I just love, love, love love that record.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Have you met John?

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I did meet John with Rizza. Yeah, and again, you know,
start just refer back to my Dave Grohl comments. I
just you know, I don't know. If you give me
like sixteen visits with somebody, then I'll break through. But
you can I got to make an impression, like one time.
It's just I think I I think I failed. He

(37:10):
was fascinating. I was at his house to watch a
Mayweather Canelo fight actually because Riza and him are like besties,
and so I was working with Riza and they just
brought me along and I mean it was epic. I mean,
Fruchiante was working on a hip hop record that he
was producing at the time, and he played that to
me and I was floored. It was incredible. And some

(37:32):
of the things he told me about hip hop I
had never thought about, and like, you know, I was
very impressed. He's a very incredible individual. But I didn't
feel like, you know, we yeah, I don't. I didn't
give him my phone number anything.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
And that was that he had him become bestie. No,
that's like a proper hang though. I thought you were
going to say, you like crosspaths at backstage at a
festival or something.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Uh No, No, it was you know, we had some chests,
we had some chats.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
That's cool. Do you remember what he was talking about
with hip hop?

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Well, one thing was I was talking about how I
love like the cadence and how I've always felt like
it was I'm just more interested in hip hop than
rock music since like the beginning of intropol. Basically, I
haven't listened to rock in my free time at all
in the last like twenty years. And one of the
things I say about hip hop or in the early
days was that it was just like a much more

(38:22):
fertile genre. Like that's what I say in like oh
two when we were doing our first like that I
don't care about the genre of rock and I just
care about this other genre. But what I would say is,
like the lack of melody in the vocal means that
the lyric has to be a little bit more impactful,
and also like the flow and the rhythms are more interesting.
And like I was saying that kind of standard thing
that I say about hip hop to John frascionte and

(38:43):
he's like, who wha, whoa, whoa, whoa. There definitely is
melody in the lyrics of hip hop. And I was like,
huh okay, and he basically explained to me that, like
it's not what would you would call like, it's not
like the absence of pitch, like there is pitch in
like there is no choice in a rap lyric. Yeah,
And now I kind of see him like, oh, yeah,

(39:05):
that's that's kind of obvious or it would sort of
sign sound clash. But in the same way, I almost
looked at like spoken word, it's indeterminate pitch. I guess
you call it like it doesn't matter what note the
voice is hitting. And I looked at hip hop that way,
and he kind of corrected me. I think he also
said some stuff about like drum production that I can't
remember offhand, but like it's it's definitely some like mad

(39:28):
genius kind of stuff. Yeah, he's definitely on another level.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
Like somebody who has perfect pitch and can hear pitch
and everything.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
More than that, it's like they just can like see
details in everything and in like keep track of them
in their mind and have kind of like aesthetic preferences
over dimensions that most of us don't even notice.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
So cool.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, it's just it's kind of like a wizard perspective.
It's as I say, it's like it's like having preferences
in things that the rest of us might just be like,
I didn't know you could have a preference on that matter.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
Right, Spending so much time with Rizza, did you get
a wizard feeling from him as well? What was your
impression of Rizza?

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, Rizz is a bona fide genius. Whatever lore or
aura people attribute to him without knowing him, I would
say that it's definitely true. You know, he's definitely not
a regular person. He's really a genius musically and kind
of someone who's done a lot of work on themselves spiritually.

(40:33):
You can tell. I've never heard him say a negative
thing about anyone ever, which is like, I think he's
the first person I've ever been around that's like that
where it's like he doesn't operate in the kind of
like pettier levels that a lot of people, myself included do.
He's just sort of like geared around I think joy
and creativity, and he's like a really affable person and
just really really really intelligent and gifted.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
That was the feeling I got watching the Hot Ones
when you guys were on Hot Ones like ten years ago.
He just seemed like so much fun to hang out
with and just kind of like down for whatever and
like a really outlook.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, and I think, but it's not entirely without intention,
Like what you perceive there would be that he's made
the decision I'm gonna go do this show that Paul
said we should do, and I'm obviously not going to
try and have a bad time or have an attitude.
I'll go and like like he chooses to go have
a nice time and be light about it. So like
there was an instance for like I've we did this

(41:33):
thing with like the Spike Awards. Actually Kobe was there
that time. It was the first time ever saw Kobe
speak in person. Rip. Yeah, I had no idea it
was like super intelligent guy. I was like, I didn't.
I wasn't aware at the time how intelligent Kobe clearly was.
But anyway, so like Rizzy gets up and he like
does this like like presents like the next awards. So
like first we're like at a table together like in

(41:53):
these nice suits that we got for the event and
like and then he gets like ushered away to go
like you know, perform like the intro to some category
on camera, and he just like nails it. And he
even like kind of I could tell he sort of
like improvised off of what the teleprompter was saying. He
was just like completely relaxed, excellently charismatic and funny and
likable and blah blah blah. And he came back to
the table and I was sort of like, man, how

(42:14):
do you do that? How do you just go up
there and just go to like fucking hit a home
run like that? He said like, well, I just think
about the fact that, like I'm the guy in the
cool suit, so the guy in the cool suit would
like be cool. And I realized it sounds like so simple,
it's like don't overthink it. But he like inhabits the
mode that he chooses to inhabit in that moment. I

(42:37):
think a lot of us are sort of more at
the subject to the environment we're in to impact how
we conduct ourselves, and I think he's someone who chooses
how he's going to conduct himself, and the environment is
sort of you know, the recipient of that rather than
affecting that.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Right, No, that's incredible. Did you get a chance to
ask him like stories about Wu Tang or did you
learn anything about the history of Wu Tang or any
sort of like anecdotes about the group that kind of
blew your mind.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, it was one thing that he said about how
like when they would want to go to like a
concert or something. I think he said they'd bum rush
the door because he'd be like, because we'd just be like,
you know, eight or nine giant dudes, and like the
bouncers would be like, what are we going to do?
So we would just bumb And I was kind of
like because I met Also, like method Man and ghost

(43:32):
Face are huge people. I don't know if you know that,
but they're like large dudes. And Riz is big too,
you know. So it's just kind of like, yeah, this
this idea of them kind of rolling around Brooklyn being
scary as hell. Also, I mean, I guess like the
miniseries now that Rusa has done has shown some of
this stuff. But like he told me some stuff about

(43:55):
the actual criminal exploits of certain members and how they
were like really legitimately scary dudes.

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Any odb stories.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
I just got the feeling that he really really loves ODB. Yeah,
and I think I think it was like had a
special place in Rizz's heart. I think Odb's like they
really pure, unadulterated creativity that I think was maybe just
like really something to behold.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Like even the you know, one of his names, like
there's no father to his style is something that they
would say, and I kind of think that's, Yeah, that's
a great way to look at ODB. It's like that
just comes from nowhere. Yeah. I remember like when I
first started working with Rizz, I was like trying to
tell my mom, like, you know, the basically, like the
Wikipedia article on this person is not at all going
to give you the entire picture of how important this
person is. Like this person as the years go on,

(44:43):
people will start to give him the credit of being
someone very important in the history of music on a
number of levels. And yeah, really magical, magical person.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
After this last break, we'll be back with the rest
of Leo Rose's conversation with Paul Banks. We're back with
the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with Paul Banks.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
All right, let's talk about a couple other tracks from antics,
just so I don't leave that just high and dry.
Is there any any song in particular that stands out
to you that you remember like recording or writing.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Take You on a Cruise was a special one because
that was a song that I had no vocals for.
Oftentimes I would sort of just be focusing on writing
my guitar parts while we were writing songs, and there
would just be like that was a song that was
an instrumental until we're in the studio and then I
remember it was the one time where there was like
a pro tools rig set up downstairs for me, and
I just like worked by myself, I think even overnight

(45:49):
and wrote the vocal top to bottom, and then I
think the next day, like Daniel came in and like
you know, they played it back for him. Daniel often
mentions that that was like a very powerful moment for
him because it went from like having no vocal to
having like the complete treatment to Take You on a Cruise.
It was also kind of good because that song has
like a little bit more of a low key temp

(46:09):
than a lot of the other music, and it has
to do with the fact that it was written by me.
Just like this, like with a microphone in front of
a computer, rather than in the rehearsal room like yelling
over Sam's drums. It was more intimately composed, and I
think that was like a good thing to put in
our body of work at that time. Like it's a
little different, and I love that song.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Yeah, when the album was out and people were listening
to it and you started playing live, what songs could
you see the audience responding to.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
First Evil was a big one. Uh, Slow Hands was
a big one. Nark is one that to this day
people really like, and I really like Nark. That's probably
a personal favorite for me.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, talk about Nark. Anything you remember from writing that
or recording it.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
I remember writing some of the lyrics in Tompkins Square
Park while I was walking around, And it's interesting that
I would remember such a specific moment, but I literally
remember kind of like choosing to like hold off on
a vocal delivery until the second chord of my guitar
progression like blim, Like I remember mapping out where I

(47:19):
would sing in the verses while walking around Tompkin Square
Park on like a sunny day, And then I remember
writing more of the lyrics to that song. Arc in
a cemetery next to the studio in Connecticut. So obviously
I didn't write everything in Tompkin Square Park. It was
still some stuff I was doing while we were recording
the record. So yeah, it's funny I remember two different
lyric writing sessions and where I was for that one song.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Is there anything that you've gotten specifically from listening to
hip hop? Like I know you were talking about cadence.
Is there any inspiration you've gotten with your own performance
or your own writing style.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
I used to subvert, like I loved the braggadociousness of
like a lot of hip hop, the kind of like
you know, I'm the shit and like this is all
my cool shit that I do. And I felt like, obviously,
I like don't feel like that, but I like the
idea of a person with a microphone. So I will
have lyrics where like I'll say something like the tone

(48:17):
is that I'm bragging, but what I'm saying is something
crazy or like I'm timeless, like a broken watch, I
make money like Fred Astaire. That's sort of my Like
imagine if a rapper was saying that, it's kind of like, well,
what is that even something to brag about? I mean,
what do you even mean? But sort of like my
surrealistic bent on on the braggadociousness of like of the

(48:39):
self aggrandizing tropes.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, how many different languages? Do you speak?

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Spanish? Well in French, pretty well in English and Spanish.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
So you speak Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish. It's a
little bit different, right, like different yeah dialects.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, my accent is much more natural in the Mexican dialect. Yeah,
but I learned the Spanish one. I lived in Spain
for four years and then Mexico for one year. But
the one year in Mexico, my accent became better with
Mexican Spanish than it ever was with Castilian Spanish.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Is it a little sort of like looser the Mexican Spanish?

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah, I mean Spanish Castilian Spanish has like a real
like kind of like an edge to it. It's like
a like a thickness yea. And Mexican Spanish is more
sing song and then slang in Castilian Spanish and Castiano
is like a really fucking edgy and like dark and

(49:39):
like they say crazy shit, like the turns of phrases
like Mechicago and la leche and like all these things
that are like just I don't want to translate it,
but like like it's like offensive and edgy kind of
ways of saying like holy shit. And then Mexico, the
slang is a lot more kind of like playful, and

(50:00):
there's like a lot of it spoke more to me.
The kind of the dialect in Mexico and the word
play and the language feels like very alive and like
they say really funny like turns of phrase and just
like it's like a it's like on a wavelength that
really resonated with me. And then I had friends that
were just like really genius, like very funny. And also

(50:21):
in Spain, no one spoke to me in Spanish. But
in Mexico I was like the the weddo gringo who
spoke Spanish, so they actually would speak to me in Spanish.
So I got like kind of more practice.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
There was it hard moving to new I mean not
only going to new schools, but going to new countries.
How did you make friends? Did you have like a
strategy for getting in with people?

Speaker 2 (50:44):
No?

Speaker 1 (50:45):
No, I mean I did. I went to three high
schools in three countries.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
But I was like badly bullied before I moved to Spain,
like badly bullied, really like assaulted at school.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Is that in Jersey?

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, like collective bum rushed Like yeah, I got the
shit kicked out of me a lot in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, like five or six instances of pretty dramatic violence
like at school. So when I moved to Spain, it
was like, cool, let's fucking let's get the fuck out
of here. And then when we moved from Spain back
to New Jersey, and that was where I was sort
of like, yeah, same school system, same house, and I
just had this incredible experience like going out to bars
and like bonds with like my best friends now are

(51:34):
friends that I made in Spain. Then so coming back
to New Jersey after that, I was kind of like
a little bit like and you know, this is for everybody.
I don't want anything to do with any of y'all,
like at all. And yet I did meet some lovely
people and like, obviously the kids are kids, So even
some of the people that had been kind of like
the bullies, you know, I even became friendly with some

(51:54):
of them, and you know, but you never really get
rid of that stuff, Like it definitely like shaped how
I view everybody I think, you know, bullying at that
young age. Yeah, but so that was that was interesting.
It was going back to that and then leaving that
was to go to Mexico, which again was kind of like,
I'm good, Like Spain turned out to be so dope,
then I'm open to see what Mexico has for me.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
You know, were you angry at your parents for moving
so much or were you did you just.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Like when we went to Spain, I was like, cool,
let's fucking go. I fucking hate New Jersey, so thank
you mom and dad. And then I didn't like Spain
when I got there, But then like a year and
a half in, I think once I realized like, oh
wait a minute, like I didn't like it at first
and now I love it. Maybe that's what it's like,
if you go anywhere in the world, you're not used

(52:41):
to it at first, and then you come to love it.
And maybe that's why everybody wherever they're from like likes
where they're from. So once that clicked, I was like,
oh yeah, I could just go anywhere and eventually I
would find my way to love the place. And I've
always been kind of an introvert, so like I always had,
Like I always had friends. It wasn't I didn't. I
didn't need more friends. I didn't feel friendless in New Jersey.

(53:03):
I did, but that was kind of all, as I say,
because I was like, fuck all, y'all.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
What was your relationship like with your parents? Were you
close with them? Were you rebellious?

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Yeah? But you know, I never shoplifted and I didn't
skip a lot of school, but I'm yeah, I got
in trouble at school a lot for acting out in
a goofy way. Yeah, but then you know, I also
got good grades, so it's like it never never was
that bad.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Do you want to talk about being a dad at all?
Are you open to that?

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Sure? Yeah, it's the best, the best. I really love
being a dad.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Has it been a big change for you.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah, it has. It's it's very very simplifying, kind of
makes the career not matter to me as much, but
at the same time makes me want to do better
at my career because I want to, you know, provide
and just do a good job and be a good example.
But I don't care about like accolades or recognition anymore
because it's like the only thing that matters is that

(54:02):
this dude is happy and yeah, adjusted and stuff.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
It's awesome you're getting that experience.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah, I mean the sappiest thing that I can say
about it too, is that I definitely I feel like
there's a capacity for love that I had my whole life.
But it's never been entirely safe to turn that like
high beam all the way on. I think, you know,
because relationships are complicated and you know, we all have

(54:31):
some defenses up. So then to have like a baby
and it's like, oh wait a minute, like the to
turn on the sort of love beam all the way
like without any need to sort of hide any of it.
It's really like a beautiful experience. And I love that
little dude so much. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Oh did it take you a while? I've heard that
sometimes with dads it can take a little while for
that connection to form. No, or was it instantaneous?

Speaker 2 (55:01):
No?

Speaker 1 (55:01):
But I believe in kind of like normalizing the fact
that that happens, because yeah, I've heard that, Like I've
heard it happens from moms too, sometimes they don't have
a bond, and so I I think it's important to
kind of like say that that's totally reasonable and talk
about it and you know, but no, I immediately felt
a huge magnetism and connection to him.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Amazing, amazing. Congratulations. Yeah, well, thanks so much, Paul. I
appreciate you for hanging out for so long.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
My pleasure. Yeah great, thank you.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Thanks again to Paul Banks for talking about the making
of Antics and his creative writing process over the years.
You can hear our favorite Interpol songs, along with some
of Paul's solo material on a playlist at broken record
podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube
dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you can find
all of our new episodes.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with
marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer
is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

(56:17):
ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple
podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember
to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app
are theme music's by Anny Beats.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I'm Justin Richmond,