Ron Carter/Don Was

We’re continuing our celebration of Blue Note Records’ 85th Anniversary this week with a conversation with a certified living legend: Ron Carter. For starters Ron Carter was a key member of a group that’s on the shortlist for greatest band of all time: The Second Great Miles Davis Quintet featuring Mr. Carter, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams and, naturally, Miles Davis.

And although many conversations with Ron start and end with that period of his life from 1964 to 1968, at 87 years of age and as a life long seeker, there’s a lot more to the Ron Carter story.

Blue Note president Don Was and Justin Richmond interviewed Ron Carter on stage at the Blue Note club in NYC. They set out to learn about his life growing up in Detroit, and his classical aspirations. Maestro Carter delivered an emotional stream of consciousness response as well as insights into a few key people from the Blue Note's esteemed history.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Ron Carter songs HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin, We're continuing our celebration of Blue Note Records eighty
fifth anniversary with a conversation with a certified living legend,
Ron Carter. For starters, he was a key member of
a group that's on the shortlist for the Greatest band
of all time. That's the second Great Miles Davis Quintet,

(00:37):
featuring Ron Carter himself, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams,
and naturally Miles Davis. And although many conversations with Ron
Carter start and end with that period of his life
from nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty eight, at eighty
seven years of age and as a lifelong seeker, there's
a lot more to the Ron Carter story, and I'm

(00:57):
happy to say we got an interesting little slice of
it for you today. When Don was and I sat
up on the stage at the Blue Note Club in
NYC with Ron Carter, we wanted to know a little
more about his life growing up in Detroit, class aspirations.
In response to those questions, Mastro Carter delivered an emotional,
stream of consciousness response that resonated deeply with both Don

(01:18):
and I. My hopes that it will move you as well.
And since we're celebrating the eighty fifth anniversary of Blue
Note Records, ron Carter also gives some fascinating insight into
a few key people from the label's esteemed history. This
is Broken Record Liner Notes for the digital age.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
I'm justin Mitchman.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Here's Don Was and myself from the Blue Note in
New York City with Mastro Ron Carter. To see the
full video version of this episode, go to YouTube dot
com slash Broken Record Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
When I first got the job at Blue Note, I
went to the archives, did a little research, and there's
an insanely inordinate number of musicians who come from Detroit,
like not even a close second in terms of cities.
What do you think it is about Detroit?

Speaker 4 (02:09):
You know, I think when the when the people from
the South went up north that migration. I just think
that that the enthusiasm of being free and the chances
of being productive and being free went to where the

(02:29):
industrial states were. They had those kind of options, and
Detroit has always been a manufacturing city cars right now,
and then Henry Ford made the unfortunes with the assembly
line in Detroit. And my general view is that the
people who were of that mindset They all came to

(02:51):
places where he could find the work. You know, the
musicians went to Philadelphia, person that East Builders and uh
Pittsburgh Ahmed. But somehow Detroit was the biggest manufacturing city
that had the most options. As a non his struggle guests,
you know.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Right, you chose to be a classical cellist originally represent
your ambition and you changed. What were the circumstances that
that caused you to change over to playing bass? From Chello.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
The start of the story is I was going to
all black junior elementary school and this person came in
with it. Came into a room where they had these
things front on the table, you know, like ten to
ten eleven twelve year old kids. She says she's going
to start the orchestra at this school, and children, these

(03:47):
are the instruments that we're going to play. I walk
around and pick one that you think appeals to you
at the best sound you can get out of there,
whatever it sounds like, and we'll make some music together.
And somehow the cello caught my attention. It was it
was aluminum, you know, And so as I got better

(04:08):
the teacher's record and I said, I was looking past
their teaching level. Ultimately, I was considered a really giant
talent for an African American fourteen year old. And so
one day I looked around. My dad said, son, if
you want to be in this game, you got you

(04:29):
gotta be better than everybody else who's in the game. Okay.
Having said that, I thought that I was upholding that
general family motto, you know. So I looked around one
day in the base player was graduating this. I'm a
senior in high school. A senior had done met there
would be nineteen fifty three fifty four spring, you know.

(04:51):
And I was always good at math. My father was
a genius, but I could subtract pretty good. So I'm
looking around and said, if he's only one guy there
and don't need a base player not as a zero,
I don't want to be that guy. So prince my
parents that do is a good way me to get better,
you know, and get get get get the work out,

(05:12):
looking for get the exposure, get the experience. Because I
was the only guy playing this, you know. So they they
sold my cello and the borrower money for a base
and got some lessons, you know, and uh, the Eastman
was having auditions throughout the country Eastern School of Music.

(05:33):
So I got some books, got a teacher and figured
out what the library was, and audition and I got
a full scotship for four years. I'm not a bass
player at Aceland, you know. And uh, while I knew
of jazz, because we all knew about the jazz and
blues and stuff like that, I never gave it a

(05:54):
thought of being a player on that level. I was
gonna be a cello solo man. Now I was gonna
be an orchestral bass player. I almost gay with that
because I got the same notes basically, you know, different attitude,
but I could do.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
That, you know. Uh.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
And as I got better at Eastman cause it was
a very competitive investment environment, you know that they were like, uh,
six or seven African Americans and a student bid them
maybe six or seven hundred kids and then about ten
basse players, yeah, bass player of students, you know. Uh.

(06:33):
And again I'm st I ask cause him was a teacher,
and he's Tim's coming on how I was improving and
how I was really understanding the music, the music and
around me, you know, how to playing on an orchestra.
Just those kind of details that good teachers show students
who they think are capable of handling another level of performance.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
So I'm getting better. You know, I'm still working on
my father's mental You wanna you wanna play the game,
you gotta have a better hand, so to speak, you know. Uh, So,
I mean I'm getting orchestra. I'm done this. I'm getting
all these gigs. I go home for the summer because
I have no money to stay in town s. School
is over, the dorm too is closing, you know. So

(07:20):
I get my car drive back to Detroit, and my neighbor,
who was a saxophone player, said, hey, hey, Ron, I'm
the I'm putting together a little band to play for
the Dwayne State University parties for sororities maternities. But we
need a bass plick, and you do that. I said, well,
I don't read a little library, and I understand that's
different music. But if you can give me some records

(07:42):
or something we listened to in the library, I'll see
how much I can learn in the time I'll be
home for this three months off of school. And at
the time, Dave Blue Brick was really hot. But jazz
goes to college. That record you know with uh so,
I said, well, I learned some of these songs cause
I'm starting to sing like Chet Baker. I said, Chet Baker,

(08:03):
you know, he's a singing trip. Okay, whatever.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
I know.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
The piano player love Bud Powell. And back in the
day there was jazz on TV Detroit and that they
still have the show from Rouge Lounge, which is about
our drive outside Detroit Northeast and the host of Swoopy Sales,
the comedian yeah you know. And one day here on

(08:27):
this show the Max Roads Quartet with uh Max, George Morrow.
You know, I think maybe a Bubb's on the band
and maybe Heroldlin. I can't remember this so far back,
but he he was, he was. They had the twenty
minutes of songs with Bud Powell and Max I said, said,
rock this is it. Yeah, I said, okay, I'm still

(08:49):
playing Bark and Beethoven Brahms, cause that's what I'm That's
what I'm aiming for. But look out for the summer.
The scholarship didn't cover all my expenses and I need
to have some money so I could back to school
cause my parents weren't able to take care of the
remaining kids. There were like five left that at home
when I left for Scolet, so I'm responsible helping him
to cover and stuff. So okay, I can do that.

(09:12):
As I'm getting better. I get back to Rochester for
this my junior my sophomore year, and uh there's a
local club. Local clubs have some music, the black clubs,
you know, thirty into all night sessions till four or
five o'clock in the morning, and I got eight o'clock
thiry class man, Come on, it's Carter. Hello. You know.

(09:33):
I'm into that kind of zone, you know, but I
need the money, so I try to figure it out.
You know, I've got some books, I got the library. Uh.
I was able to do the jam sessions at the night,
from the two mid night the three in the morning,
you know, but I got better at it, you know,
by still in an orchestra, I'm still trying to get

(09:53):
this orchestral orchestral accomplishment that I'm aiming to do.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
You know.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
Jazz was something that helped me stand school by strings
for the instruments, stuff details, you know, a and uh
I I noticed the bulletin board. They would have jobs
for orchestras, auditions, stuff like that, you know. And uh,
while I saw that, I was still not seeing it

(10:24):
and that those auditions were kind of general, but I
wasn't feeling any schooled encouragement to check that out, you know.
And and it didn't stop me on my tracks as
to why I weren't they encouraging me to check it out.
I just said, look, I'm trying to I'm trying to
get a degree here, but I'm I'm got a minor

(10:46):
and I got a major in this, got these classes.
I'm in a very competitive environment. All these kids think
they're the best there is and they'd work until that end.
They got practice time. I mean, it's just other factors
in my life, right, you know. Uh, I had really
learned how socialize with white people, cause I'm I'm all
black community. I'm growing up in that environment, you know.

(11:09):
M Uh, I had a scholarship, but I meant I
had to work in the kitchen to wash the dishes
during the meals, you know. So I met some nice
guys who were in the same general boat who had
a lot more money, but they were real nice guys.
So to this day, I still contact those guys cause
they're still my friends, you know. So I was getting
out to learn how to learned how to socialize with
a uh, a non complete black environment. So I was

(11:32):
growing up too at the same time. You know. A
footnote to this story down is that uh Eastman School
in musical separate from University of Rochester physically. It was
like a s four mile distance in campuses, you know.
And so when the freshman met at the Eastman, the
guys from the River campus they called it, came to

(11:53):
the school the s you know, socialized, you know, and uh,
a couple of size, couple of guys thought that all
musicians were at the time.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
The work was fruits.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
You know, it was not a very nice word, you know,
A and uh us on Detroit and that put there
with that hardhead and you know, the badass on my jacket,
that kind of stuff, you know. I said, I said,
so I have not about I just made a couple
acquaintance and said, man, those guys can't talk to like that.
I mean, I'm not sure, but I don't know about
you guys, but I'm not I'm not buying that kind

(12:26):
of description of me, you know, said well, well, gee,
what do you want to do? I said, well, I
was play a decent basketball player. I want to try
to make the team, said man, but you got practice that. Yeah,
I know that, I know that very well. Well let's
see what happens. So the two of us got unerved together.
You know, we would bicycles two and a half miles
out of the campus and all that kind of stuff.

(12:47):
And then we had the couple of practices and the
guy got the squad down to whatever twelve people, and uh,
I made the squad. So I was playing. I was
on the Trusturant squad basketball team. I got made in
about three games by two points. But it was okay.
The point, well say, I made the squad, you know,

(13:08):
but it was seemed clear me that I couldn't do
both and being I couldn't be a good basketball player,
and my goal to be it was to be a
good player. I couldn't do both. So I acknowledged that.
I told these guys, okay, this is one guy who
did that.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
You know.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
In the meantime, I'm noticing the bolleting board mentions about
the auditions for the violence section. They the third violin player, earlyer,
thesistant concert master, and they need a bass player at somewhere.
So I noticed these sayings, you know, and uh, I'm
not feeling any encouragement. And I'm not feeling any overt encouragement.

(13:46):
The one said, hey man, check this out. Try how
that feeling. I didn't get that. I wasn't feeling that
you and any event. One of the processes at the
time now was that every every every orchestral sequent of
Rochester Philharmonic they would need some spaces field. So they

(14:07):
called students in the school who could cover the libor
who deserved the right, who who earned the right to
be a part of the Rochester Philharmonic as they were
juniors or sophomoret or seniors in college, you know. And
so it turned out nineteen fifty eight they needed a
bass player for the Philharmonic orchestra for the fifty eight
fifty nine season, you know.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
And uh so asker said you should be the guy
to do that.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
So I said, okay, So whatever whatever the process was,
I got a call next day said that they had
the opening and the Philharmonica and they want me to
fill the chair. I said, okay, this is what it takes, huh, okay,
sign me up. Okay. So for a year I was
the probably first personal club player in the Philharmonic Orchestra.
You know, I'm still making gigs on weekends now. And

(14:58):
uh one weekend there was Horace Silver's band a place
called Squeezers bam Box, and the horse had Teddy Kodak,
maybe Clifford Jordan our farmer.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
He got a really good band man still back in Detroit.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
No, no in Rochester, Rochester, Yeah, uh had a really
good band. So ultimately I joined the house the house band,
the place called a rich Crest and uh uh just
out side of New York, and they bought him acts
and I was part of the intermission band. Me drummer
named Don Manning and pianist named Joe Close who walkman

(15:34):
left town and went to Joe went to sell the
uh Jo Ernestin Anderson a really good piano player. And
then even some seeing all these guys come in weekends
with this with the uh uh officer of dis disach band.
Uh I met ike Issex, who was what Camonkree at
the time. You know, Sam Jones came through, you know,

(15:54):
uh sunny Stick came by himself as a single and
and uh so he played with the house band. So
and me, the Joe and and Don and the first
time he tried us, I was de flat blues right here.
M I said, well, okay, I can do that nothing
but the blues and deflat then, I mean, really that's
the test, you know, and so we got. It was

(16:17):
that nice experience to me to see how this guy
who is as close to bridge you can get without
being buried, played every night that level. I mean, it
was just often. It's just amazing, you know. Uh some
Gaelic mean that he may not know his name, but
he's one of the early duals Slim and Slim and Slam.

(16:38):
And he came in as a single and we talked
about music and changes and chords. You know, they were
really making this music concept more available to me firsthand.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
You know.

Speaker 4 (16:48):
So anyway, I'm in Philharmonic Arcs. We have concerts, and
I got a white bow time matching vest, you know.
And then uh uh they had guest conductors, Pierre Montreu, uh,
Leo Postokowski, all these people came into four or five
of them. And so one day I'm got to rosal
Leo Posta Cooski was about for six you know, now

(17:12):
six two six three something like that. You know, he said,
why don't you have a seat? I get some look
in the eye to eye, cause I was you know,
he says, so the young man, I have noticed your
performance here, and you seem like a really good person
and a marvelous player. And I'd like you to go
to my orchestra down in Texas. But the boy of
the directors right now, I'm not ready to hire colored people.

(17:35):
H I said, Okay, that's the first honest I mean,
that's the first honest answer I got to describe the
classical world at that time, you know, I said, okay,
and and uh right went right. Then I knew that
I had to find another a another play to play music,

(17:56):
you know. And along this time the bass players would
say that I had some skills, and they thought that
I'd do good in New York. They didn't know my
classical interest. That that wasn't con that wasn't there thing.
I just a bass player was in the and then
in the mission band, you know, they said, New York.
He's a good bass player. And she'd come in and
try you look, you know. In the meantime, I met

(18:17):
a couple of guys called the Man Jones, Gap and
Chuck and their family the man Jones. Frank and Nancy
hosted any musician who came to town who played jazz.
They hosted them for lunch or dinner. It's clearly amazing.
So I meant dazzy. I meant all those guys at
their home for dinner. And the Chuck and Gap had

(18:38):
a band, and and the tentler named Benny sells out
in a band called Little Giants, and uh or Keaton
has heard about them and game they made a record
with the Riverside. Uh So I was in my first
record back then in those days, and they were clearly
encouraging me, not necessarily not to play classical, but to

(19:03):
acknowledge from my talent. Also lay you know, they're providing
many a meal cause I had no money. The kid
didn't pay much, but he did keep me in school.
I just got married in nineteen fifty eight. I I
was not scustling, but they made it easy to not
worry about where my next meal was coming from. Frank

(19:25):
and Nancy well a lovely couple.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Man.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
You know.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Of course Chuck got famous, and the Gap cause the
local piano player who've worked all the time. They're really
great people. Until this day. I'm in touch with gap
in Charlie. Now you know in any event, U ultimately, Uh,
jazz shows ken in Rochester at the Eastman Theater, and
they had the Jazz Package shows and they were all

(19:49):
jazz acts. The particular show.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Had men A.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
Ferkinson's band, had Lamon Herricks and Ross's band, had Dave
Rubik's group and Miles all in the same show man,
you know. And and UH and me and Chuck and
Charlie went to the concert. I said, let's see what
it looks like, you know, Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
You know.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
So it turned out some almost supposed to take the
band to the train station, cause that was part of
the truck line from Canada, Canada upstate New York. Yeah,
you had the other to New York City. And they
all made a stop at this Rochester cause there's a
big school Rochester, rit big you know, it's Eastern Kodak,
it's all there, Balsh and Lob, it's all there. It's

(20:32):
a good financial stop to make come way back to
New York from Canada, you know. And anyway, so who
was supposed to take these guys to the translation never
showed up and s and so uh the guy asked me,
would I take him to the transtation. Miles band through
the transtation. I said, I got to look forward.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Man.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
You know these guys they they didn't at level of transportation.
So no, no, no, they ride with you. So I
took Miles and and and uh Red Garland to the
transtation of my car. And but that's it, just ride.
We were you know, they were famous. I'm in school,
I'm basic playing school. But the Philarmonic had you listen
to them yet?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Not really?

Speaker 4 (21:07):
I mean I knew who they were, but then everybody
knew who they were, you know. But uh, I was
just impressed that they trusted my driving skills.

Speaker 5 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, I got nineteen nineteen fifty Ford man, come on,
you know, uh so you see hello, how are you
mister Davis and mister mister Garland.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
You know I'm the guy to go take it to
the train station. Okay, good, all right, Okay, that's it.
So I graduated. So in the meantime, Jicko Hamilton had
a band and he told me we had we we
see said, uh someone said, he said, hey, Ronnie, all
you played Chell? Yes I do, mister mister Hampton said
play something. So I brought a chiller and said in

(21:50):
the practice room and play a couple of things with
a box that I knew, so still had some skills,
you know. He said, we were working in New York
on this day, August. Work it is, and if you
get to New York when you graduately, come to New York.
And if I'm working, take my Chello players about to
leave the band and I need a policeman.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Are you interested?

Speaker 4 (22:09):
I said, well, I mentioned, I'm not sure how many
skills I have left cause I haven't played in a
long time, but I think I can hamlet it, you know.
He said, well, come to New York. And then if
they how are you? I said, okay. So I graduated
at June of nineteen fifty nine and got me to
New York office for the same year, and the band
was working at Birdland. So I walked downstairs. You know,

(22:33):
I'm mister Hamilton here. He said, well, change the plans.
I said, oh yeah, what said, Well, chel players are
going to stay, but I need a bass player White
Rules for bul Rules have decided to go back to
Seattle and set up shopping in Seattle. Are you doing
to take this gig? I said, sure, I'm here now
I've meant a commitment to stay here. You know, who's
in a band. Then this buddy Mire plants playing guitar,

(22:57):
that Gerson was a cello player and her dolphin was
a red player. I said, okay, and he said, I said,
we're leaving in uh wherever it is. We got to
come country on the road, and we come back. We
go to California for a while. I said, well, you know,
I'm still going to school. He said, well, why don't
you try to delete the school until January and en roll?

(23:17):
And I'll say, I don't know, not to talk to
them because I got a scholarship for a master's program
for the year, you know, and I'm not I think
i'd cancel it. I'll be in We'll talk with him,
you know. So I talked to the school and said,
I got this chance to go on the road, but
chick on hambleting, you know, can I start my scholarship
in January of nineteen sixty rather than.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
The fall of fifty nine?

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said, okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
You know, so I left town with chicken hamblting for
like five four weeks, all these stops on We drove
from Boston to Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Drove.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
How was that drive?

Speaker 4 (24:00):
We had four drivers, Chico, me and Timmy and his
brother drove.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
So it was fun.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
You know, I'm just a guy in Detroit, but family
of six, six girls and my brother. It's all new
to me. Man. You know. Uh, one of the stops,
by the way, it was in Washington, d C. The
first stop in Washington, and uh, it's it. It was
really north of New York, but cause it's really down

(24:25):
south for me, you know. And we put up to
Howard Johnson's if you know that name from back in
the day, and and uh were right in the bus
of the the shows and of the show's tracking by bus.
You know, they had Colin Hawkins and Mouser's band. That's
just a great bunch of people. To watch them operate,
watch them talk, watch how they communicated with each other

(24:47):
with all their genius skills.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
You know.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
So we end in waiting in the bus for a while.
We still waiting, and then the guy comes back and says, well,
you know that they don't serve black people. Yes, we
have to go around the back or find somewhere else
to eat, you know, And Howard Johnson's Yeah, I said ah,
this is, this is, this is Yeah, you got the
bus for the geniuses and they didn't want to serve
them be cause they're not white. I didn't. I didn't,

(25:12):
I didn't. I I didn't get that. You know, I'm
uh twenty maybe nineteen now, you know, from Detroit, like
the riots and all that stuff. So I the idea
of that kind of convertation is not new to me.
But to be so close to it and to see
the people who they don't wanna serve a sandwich to
man this talent, how could that be?

Speaker 5 (25:32):
Man?

Speaker 4 (25:33):
But so I'll just fucking picture how could that? How
could that take place? You know? Hello, world, world, next door?
Come this way that you know? Any event, I got
over that and I understood. Okay. So one of these
things I do, guys, is when I do these interviews.

(25:55):
They always wanted to know about my classical background. I said, okay,
you know, and and uh how I feel about it,
you know? And uh do I have no regrets? And
do I miss it? All those courts I give our
small yes, I do miss it. I've made some wonderful
fore answer that I grew up with some great people
who are trying to play it better like I was.
You know, I missed the sound of the orchestra. That's

(26:21):
one thing to listen to a record. It's nothing to
be sitting right in the middle of the sound. That's
an incredible feeling. Man, I missed that, you know, but
they were not. But take what you do, just the interviewer,
this is nineteen sixty two, sixty three, sixty four, whatever
it was. Just take some pictures of the orchests. Go back,

(26:42):
go back ten years now. All orchestras had a photograph
for the orchestra for the promo Chicago, Philly, Cleveland, New York, Boston.
And you let me know how many minorities are in
those orchestras compared to the orchestras on the stage now,
whatever it would have been. And you think that's okay,

(27:05):
You think that didn't You think that hasn't made an
impression on May still And I said not. These schools
and it's not a propaganda's conversation. Now this is page three.
These schools are still turning out wonderful African American musician
players to be primarily symphonie players or players. And if

(27:31):
you look at the number of photographs of these orchestras
at five year intervals, and the same five year intervals
that these schools are turning out these wonderful classical players
orchestral players to.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Be what happens to them.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
According to these pictures, they're not working with Cleveland or
Philadelphia or New York or Boston or Los Angeles, where
these kids what happened to them. The reason my picture
is not in these pictures, they're towing them out in

(28:08):
the ago that they weren't ready to hire color people.
That's why I'm not playing there. According to these pictures,
I'm looking at if I've got my shirt, like home glasses,
all that kind of stuff. Nonhing's changed other than the
date of the calendar man, you know. So there's a
lot of work. There's a lot of work to be done.

(28:33):
And my footnote to this kind of conversation always kind
of ends up there because they think I just know
about miles and my life started in nineteen sixty three
to sixty eight and a half. You know, I as
to say I'm expearenced. I'm living that life, you know,

(28:56):
you know, and one of the things that keeps just
fire blue. You know in Nassian Torch that the hottest
fire is not to flame. It's this blue thing, you know,
one of the kind of things that keeps keeps me
on fire, that color. You know, our situations like when

(29:18):
I was doing commercial work in New York, New Orchestra's
doing stuff bix bix scores in New York. You know,
there has a sex us of a se base section
of uh. They were from four to five players A
and UH. I was known as the hot jazz player
in town. So they wanted to know what I'm They
wanna know what I'm doing there.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
You know.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
So the the the the the the game was guys
that the everyone who were not specifically assigned their first chair,
they got there earlier so they could be the first chair.
That means you got the best money, highest paid, you
got a little more respect from the orchestra, could do
the first chair violin as a base play, whatever where
it was, you got a chance to make the boweling,

(30:00):
the fingering you were. That was all on you. And
the remaining four or five people in the section. Their
job was to say yes, yes, yes, yes, you know
A and UH. Because I was either number four or
five on the list of important players. You know, I
I I didn't feel that. Uh, they thought I'd be

(30:20):
along there cause I just finished I said with Miles
Miles Davis last night, or or Randy Weston or Herbian Man, whoever,
whoever the gig was for that week. You know. So
one day I had enough, So t the sessions were
like nine to nine to one and two to five,
and you come back and you do the lunch. You know,
I said, Okay, guys, I got this. I'm I'm telling me,

(30:44):
you know. So we took a break at one one o'clock,
you know, and I know that uh about twelve thirty
one o'clock they gonna start filtering and get for the
next happen. You know, I get there before these base
prients get there. Now, while I hadn't been in an
orchestra seriously for like three or four years, I never
forgot the library, and I knew all the things that

(31:06):
base priers had the audition to be accepted. I know
that stuff. Man, I just didn't put in the trash.
Can just stort part of my uh DNA, you know.
So what I decided to do is just give them
a lesson of what my capacity was in my experience.
So I just said I'm selling in the last chair
cause that was my seat at the film, you know, okay,

(31:27):
And I played three or four orchestral excerpts through the keys,
and I just let it. That's that's my statement. M
that's him. I said, hey, where you go? I said,
I got a gig my to Berlin. Then I I
can't stay here. You know. That's the footnote. That's kind
of conversation. So yes, I'm still affected by that. You

(31:51):
can't let that go. If you let it go, it
continues somewhere else and someone who can't handle it. And
I hate to thank guys of how much talent that's
not available to a public of listening music because they're
not they're not the uh cause they're probably of the
minority string section, string player, you know. Uh. Again, the

(32:14):
pictures are slowly having a little more representative of a
broader musical ability of players in minority community who deserve
to be in these chairs. Like these other guys and
gals are gal singular, you know, but I think, uh,
this blue part of the sling torch, I think is

(32:38):
necessary for me. You know, I enjoy the memories and
I don't regret not being able to have those memories live.
Matter is that they wanted to hire me and I
passed the auditions. They couldn't afford me. I mean they
we could not afford what I get. I'm bringing a

(32:59):
whole whole other vibe to this orchestra and what they
stand for. I'm more famous than the conductor. What does
that cost?

Speaker 1 (33:16):
We'll be right back with more from Ron Carter after
the break. We're back with more from Ron Carter. Down
was and me? How do you contriue the blue flame
that they keeps you from here? How do you keep
that burning without burning yourself?

Speaker 4 (33:39):
The DNA that helps make keep a balance, you know, uh,
balance meaning there's always someone out there, some young kid
of color, you know, who was who was going through
what I went through sixty years ago, and if they're

(34:04):
doing any homework and do any research, because it's not
so available to them, because you know, here's some person
who went through this kind of experience that I'm going
through sixty years later, he found somewhere else for his talent.
It doesn't mean that there can be a good jazz player.

(34:25):
I mean they may turn out to be a better writer.
I'll put their skills into being a composer. Or a
better teacher. It just says them know that there's still
the way to be involved in the community of some kind,
even though it's not the one that you instanly chose,

(34:45):
and someone else made that choice kind of for you.
They threw you, and they threw you into another train track.
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Did you feel like a did jazz playing the gig
and you were doing and eventually I mean, you know,
did that ever feel like a consolation?

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Early on, I felt like this one I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Now.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
I never took it as a a great second choice.
I'm saying those guys missed it.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, you felt a natural affinity for it certain.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
Parts, yes, but I understood to do what I was
doing they required another kind of level of work and commitment.
It's one thing trying to stand what the right note
could be some other things for other patients to keep
looking for it.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Did you listen to other styles of music, like when
you were a kid, did you listen to the c KLW?

Speaker 4 (35:40):
And probably, But at the time, you know, church was
still very important in my my and my family's, in
my community's life, you know, So I knew all the
church songs, all the words, you know, uh at the
time my conversation. Then then then all the world changes.
But I understood the harmony. You know. It was kind
of complicated, you know, and I never went to the

(36:04):
rehearsals because I was playing show and the stuff doing.
You know. So that kind of muty was always in
my in my family and my community. Uh. No one
said jazz is the devil's music in myles or uh
uh uh. When they when they would take the little
kids to the uh Symphony Hall, Fisher Theater and they
in the in the Detroit to see the orchestra, they

(36:28):
encourage this, this is what the orchestra sound like.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
They were.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
They weren't saying that you can't be in there. But
at the time of twelve or fourteen, you don't see
anybody who looks like you, m a and they aren't
planning that seed. They're just showing you an orchestra.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
You know.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
Where you take it from now that's kind of up
to you. Your background, your interest, your the determination, you know,
your skill level wherever it is. You know, do you
wanna go through all this what whatever?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
You know?

Speaker 4 (36:56):
But no, I don't. I don't think that my career
now it's that. I never thought it as a uh
uh Constellation prize.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, yeah, I think.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Of how much those guys missed it.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, when you go back to Detroit over the years,
I mean as your career starting is, you're going back
late fifties, early sixties through the sixties, and you're seeing
like Motown, for instance, happening in Detroit.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
Was that?

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I mean were you Were you watching that at all
and interesting at all?

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Not at all at Detroit.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
I wasn't a jazz player, and so when I would
go back for summer vacations, I would never go to
the jazz clubs. I had a job by the one
summer I spent as a progression director. My job is
go to the parks at a park at seven o'clock.
At eight o'clock, take out all the gids about the baseball, bat,
the tub, the gloves, all that stuff, and mine to

(37:52):
the kids behavior from nine o'clock to three o'clock. When
that time came up, put stuff away and do it
again tomorrow. So I kept my health together, I got
my physical skill together. You know, I was older than
most of the kids, so that was really the old
man who's controlling that. The bad Mitton said, you know

(38:13):
the guy who made us pick up the bases after
the softball game. That I was okay with that because
that's what I was. You know, I just want to
be better than they were.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Add it you.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Did, did you bump into James Jamison?

Speaker 4 (38:26):
None of those man, I didn't know any of those people.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
Where was the people you went to high school? Was
like Alice Coltrane, I didn't know her.

Speaker 4 (38:34):
My got Ira Jackson suophone players started playing after a while.
Kirk Leitzing was my classmate. He used to do his
homework homework. Uh, my classical my classmates of cast, they
were all classical players like I was. And uh some

(38:55):
of them went on to a major orchestras and conductors,
the major's orchestras. Uh, some of them. A couple of
them went to, uh we're in the Washington the DC Symphony.
You know, a couple of them in the major orchestra
scattered throughout the world. I was the only one of
my class who went to jazz to this level wherever

(39:18):
the level that is. But I kind of lost track
of those guys and none of none of 'em did
this for a living m you know.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
And you didn't know Paul Chambers.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
My father knew Hispanically, were both bus drivers. Yeah, and
I didn't meet Paul in New York officially, but we
never hung out cause I had a family. He had
a family. He was trapped with Miles all the time.
M I came to New York. I was still a
student of Manhattan for a master's.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
Uh, I did two gigs, but I was not where
he was in the in the spectrum of the jazz community,
you know. Having met Sam Jones and in Rochester, I
came to New York and at some point a year
or so later, Uh, Sam was working at Monk and
at some point he got sick and he called me
to c I meet this gig for him. I said, well, Monk,

(40:06):
he said, yeah, you can do that. So I said okay.
So I got my base and a cab and went
in the subway and went down to a place called
Circle in the Square, which is a block from the
village gate. Cause this nice small theater, and I met
mister Monks and mister Monk, Sam Jones is sick, and
he called me the sub for him. He said, okay,
do you know my songs? I said, most of them.

(40:29):
He said, well tonight we'll find out which ones you
don't know, and he was okay. So we did next
week in Philadelphia for a week. So we getting this
kid getting Barons' car as five thirty drive to drive
to uh the PEPs to show place in Philadelphia, do
two sets, getting her car and drive back to New

(40:50):
York cause I had a class in Manhattan at eight
o'clock in the morning. Did that for a week, but
they shore one Saturday. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Another base Uh A bass player that you seem to
have an interesting relationship with early on was George da Vivier.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Yes, I saw George working with you. Did you go hambling?
And and uh uh I didn't know the drummer, but
the singer was uh Lena Horne.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
And George had had uh yell lieutenant sunglasses. Not only
did he play it great, he looked different a and uh.
Ultimately we became really good friends, I mean really close friends. Uh.
When he got sick, I was by his side, you know.
But he had a club called the Bass Fiddle up
on Saint Nicholas in about a hundred and thirty fourth Street,

(41:39):
and I would go back to the gigs to talk
with him from my music, and he would had a
juke box. They had all the jazz records on it.
He would play one. He said, Oh, young fella, how'd
you do that? I said, I said, Uh. MR said no, no, no, George,
Uh George, I just hear what I do and try
to find out how to make it work tomorrow night.
He love that kind of stuff. I was with him

(42:01):
on his bad days and his health days, you know.
And and uh uh. One of his last earthly beings
was a mona. Hinton and Milk were very great friends
of his. And somehow he had gotten really sick of
his home uptown and he couldn't get a cab t
to couldn't get anybody to come pick him up and

(42:21):
take him to the hospital. So i'mnna call me at home. Said,
can you come to where we are uptown, to George's house,
the apartmentere he was, and take George to the hospital
cause we can't get a cab. M She said absolutely.
So I got my son in the car, put the
back seat down the little Volval, we drove uptown to
George's house and ultimately they found a cab driver who

(42:42):
will take him to the hospital and he was last.
He didn't survive much past that time, you know. Uh,
but yeah he was. He was uh a person whose
imagery of the base was really really impactful. This is
what the base can do in the group. A and uh,
we didn't have a social connection in terms of going

(43:05):
going by south for Dannel or come to my hout.
And it was always com to the base. H how
the base does in the groups. The white groups are
called him. They needed him there cause he was the
best at what there was. He had what they needed.
There's a a very important thing to see it take place,

(43:26):
given being told that the orchestra are not ready to
hire colored people yet.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, and I'm un in them in New York.

Speaker 4 (43:32):
Man, with all these great players come to New York,
I see this guy playing in the same base I'm
kind of playing. And he gets these gigs cause the
white guys know, they didn't need him in the orchestra
and the and the S and the and their group.
That's quite a.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
That kind of well white jazz groups ja.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the white guys were badly the
Benny Goodman the kind of cats you know though, that
that spectrum of Yeah, the music scene, the big time guys. Yeah,
they call George to call Milt cause they knew they
were bring something into their band that nobody else give 'em.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, left an impression. I got that.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
We'll be right back with the rest of our conversation
with Ron Carter after this last break, We're back with
the rest of our conversation with Ron Carter.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
For listeners who don't really know when you when you
talk about the role of the base in a in
a band, I don't. I don't know that the people
really understand everything that that a base can do besides
just hold down low end or something like that.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
Well, you know, I kind of don't mind that. I mean,
I go to concert occasionally classic concerts, and I've gone
to the offense I can't and I don't see the
audience specifically one what kind of basse player, what kind
of based does the bass player I have? And what
kind of strengths is he using? And what kind of

(45:05):
fingering does he have? I don't see them doing that.
You know, only the he has audience is forced to
be that kind of research person for the person for
his don't you need to know what I do? Just
can you like the.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Results of it? That's what I'm concerned with.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
Having said that, though, you can't just accept that as
being the way it is. And I try to respond
to them in an adult fashion, not not sandbox styles.
I try to explain to them that just okay, I'll
tell you.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
What you do.

Speaker 4 (45:34):
You person, watch the next football game, you two. You know,
there's a guy who's clearly the quarterback. What he's doing,
he's got if it's in his ear, he's got ear
ear piece. That's someone upstairs, and and the thing and
the coach. I tell him what I played the call?
Uh yeah, and he's doing, has this honest sleeve he has.

(45:55):
He has the the details here some kind of way,
and he's called shots wherever he does. Everybody must buy
that cause he just got the word from heaven or
that this is what it is. Okay, he got quint
out on the stage, the main net to cost the tune.
And there's no one doing like this but this guy

(46:17):
in his head. Imagine that. I try to him to
see that kind of angle.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
You have all the power.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
Indeed, and they understand that they're rating four guys buying
largely understand that some of them don't. That's okay.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
What happens when you start going in a certain direction
and you feel the other players aren't there.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
I don't want to go do that. Yeah, I accept that.
Maybe they want me to two p all night. I'll
do it. Footnote to this answer. I was doing that
date with a singer at some point, and the process
was they would have an arranger coming from California, make

(47:06):
some sketches for the arrangement, and the singer would come
in and rhythm sec make this. They'd make this track
with him singing, and the arrange would take the tracks
back out to California and filling in with the orchestra
the stuff. You know, well, I'll joined this part on
this specific date. And uh, the rhythm section I was
with was a really a bunch of good guys in

(47:26):
New York. That's always the case. And we communally had
decided that these changes were kind of stiff and we
didn't wanna do that for six hours.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
You know.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Our job was kind of making hip for us, cause
we got to play this stuff.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
You know.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
We'd do four or five tunes in the day, just
like two days for my day and wet Tuesday, you know.
So the second day we'd come in and and the
range cast me over. Said hey, hey, do you have
a seat, And I said, I'm feeling pretty good. You know,
now much talk? He said, you know? Uh, I like
where you play, that's why you're here. But I like
my baselines on our route. I said, well, well, so

(48:06):
so I'm gonna gon do those songs again. Say I'll
tell you one. I'll play your ship until you can't
stand it, and then you tell me I'm free. So
we did two, a few songs, he said free, and
we became dear friends, I mean really dear friends. Yeah,

(48:26):
to this day, nothing to tell you. But my point
was I played what they want, and I have to
trust that their judgment, that maybe I have a better
idea to do it than they have.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
What about the times you're not so sure? I read
or heard or read somewhere I can't remember now where
I saw this or read it. Where you said the
first time you played with Herbie that he was playing chords,
you weren't quite sure what they were, and so then
you weren't quite sure what you should be doing exactly
just early on.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
Uh, I'm not sure that's quite an exact translation. I
think what I might have kind of conveyed to the
question or questionnaire was I know what he's doing, but
I couldn't figure out the best note to make that work.
And uh, I didn't understand that he trusted me that
much that he would go with my way because he

(49:18):
didn't know where I was going other than that it
wasn't what he his way was. And at some point,
without discussion the rehearsal, we decided it was decided that
my way wasn't a bad way, and then it could
work for everybody.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
So there was some conversation and dialogue in GM.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
But not not what people would think, you know. We
didn't have sound with a blackboard and listened to ultimate
texts and figured out what now that we.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Had a life.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
Yeah, when the gig was over, Man Herbert just got married.
It got a big record, very big record. Tony was
living the stair at someone at Miles's house. I had
this new family. I've gone home out doing other stuff
other than Miles's band. There wasn't that kind of necessary
additional time to feel that the band could do something
that's really great, something really nice. Ultimately, it was a

(50:07):
little past night, yes, but we didn't understand. I didn't
understand the ramifications of what we were doing as we speak,
you know, But again, our relationship was based on being
wild for other guys night in.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
And man out.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
There's There was a compilation of put out kind of
recently handful of years ago, made five years ago called
Bootleg five. It was a Miles Davis re release and
as a bunch of session as a bunch of recordings
of you guys talking in between in the.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Studio and.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Uh, it's it's you can tell listening to it that
you guys weren't one hundred aware of what you were
contributing to the world of music because it was all
very casual, you know.

Speaker 4 (50:59):
Well, I think what I hope that people would understand
from that particular set of records discs is that while
Miles was the band of leader, he was not leading
the band. He took information from everybody. He said, what
about this, or don't do that? Try to He was
open to any suggestions. We thought they would make not

(51:22):
just the music different, but absolve him from the responsibility
of making everything happen, you know, not that he couldn't,
not that he had did, but with this select bunch
of four other guys, they relieved him of that sole
responsibility of being not just the band leader, but leading

(51:45):
the band.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
It's like a good basketball team.

Speaker 4 (51:47):
The band was leading him and he understood that all
you got to do is man is be able to
hit a set shot and take you stand over there,
it's coming your way.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
And t o too here. And it seemed like TiO Maceo, yeah,
would produce it. Like you know, he was involved quite
a bit too.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
He was kind of having kind of kind of control
on some of the stuff and and and uh uh
uh budget. You know, it was time they had. He
wanted to make sure that everyone got back on time
from going out to get the drink or going out
to scent get lunch. Uh. He was kind of the
that the uh, the guy with the card that was

(52:27):
into the time machine you call that thing pushed the car. Yeah,
and he was the guy who organized the dates, book
the studio, time was there for the mixing. He did
all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
He's a good composer. You know. I think we played
a good sex one at one time, and that was
on one of this projects.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
I had fun. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Uh seeing how he was the leader for a change
because he wasn't no leader with milesers Man. He was.
He was the guy who was part of the process.
Now he's the guy who's dictating the tatoon, the temple,
the key, all that stuff. It's interesting to see him
no longer be the guy hiding behind the curtain of

(53:05):
the or the glass. Now he's on the other side,
you know. And he understood a whole another level of
it that takes something that happened. I appreciated that.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
ESP was produced by Irving Townsend, right what did they did?
My nmsel a falling out.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
With I have no idea. I never knew little details,
and I didn't really care to know them, you know,
and only not that it isn't I didn't care. I
was more concerned with I think guys, can the man
hear where I'm going sooner? H And then can I

(53:44):
remember a nice thing I did on the first set?
To do it for the third set tomorrow night and
see how many guys pick up on it? And to
that end, I have a book come out of the
public company called uh Tratography, and this book is written
out scores. What is what we have done is transcribe

(54:08):
five different performances of the same song, the same band
perfect laboratory, so cool, and and it transcribes my basic
line for two and a half courses. How it changes
for the side performances, but how the band as still
what I'm playing, and that's what we did live every

(54:28):
night man.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Because it's not just a static baseline, No, it's.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
Every night it's something new based on this process, based
on this germ. Now every night you water it. Yeah,
how how.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Do you clear your mind of so that you're not
repeating what you did the night before, but moving it forward.
I'll tell you something happened to me recently. I played
a gig in Detroit a couple of weeks ago, and
it was good to see all these folks. People I
went to elementary school came and they were all there
before the show, and then we went out to play,

(55:04):
and I realized, I'm completely I'm prepared to play the show.
And it took me fifteen minutes to get in a
proper headspace to just be inventive and to let go.
I'm curious about the balance of again, like following that
seed you're talking about planting, but also being spontaneous.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
One of the things that I try to do down
is kind of have a line between them and me
and just me. You know. You know we've had times
they've been stuff's going on right now it's difficult to
turn off the news, yeah and go to work because

(55:50):
the news is so so in motion consuming, man, you know.
And I say that because I feel like I'm getting
like this right now, just thinking about trouble, the trouble,
the difficult times we're in, and I know I got
to go play a threell next week with a coin
I've got to put. This film is a signed long
enough to do what immine hopes I can do for

(56:12):
the band and my devices. Guys, it changes from how
swept up I allow me to get in this over here.
You know, there have been times when this part has
been so emotional for me that it bleeds over into
the first set of who I'm working with. Most of

(56:35):
the groups work with can't understand that issue because they
have it also, you know, and they would like to
think that the band over here, they're strong enough in
their personal beliefs or they're saying to kind of let
this not be so important to their performance here, but
still color it because it's part of the emotional life

(56:58):
they're living. You know, I did a record call when
skys are Gray come my first blat and jazz record
that that really is nice record. Harvey and Mason, Steve Crouhan,
Steven Scott on a Monday, the Sunday before I had
done a memorial for my late wife, and these guys

(57:18):
understood what I was literally I was coming from. And
to say they had my back is kind of crude, crude,
And it wasn't that they had not back. They just
had my sensitivitiy or tuned up so high that you
know that they trusted my choice. If they would want

(57:39):
to argue, they had said, no, it's not the right time. Yeah, God,
trust this guy because he's hearing some stuff over here.
They help me maintain a separation of this event and
this performance. Your friends out there, they don't understand how

(58:01):
they have impacted. Your choice is over here. Only you
understand that you plural have to understand that they don't
know the difference. They don't know you have choices they
and there's no year there m They will accept by
and large what you give them because they expect you

(58:22):
to give them a good menu. Your job is to
pick the menu and what things you wanna really serve
them that you're really comfortable with, given their tastes are
not sophisticated. I mean that can give you y. You
don't get them a test that's over there that you
me do this. I that's no. You wanna have them

(58:42):
lead this gig to me to hurt our friend Don
that hadn't hurt in a very long time. He sounded wonderful.
Your job is given them right things from this menu.
So you gotta turn this off, turn this down h
long enough to be able to fulfill your responsibility to them. Also,
these guys, M it is not that it is not

(59:05):
an easy thing to do, you know, and and know
that we're confronted with these two emotions daily. M. It's
something that we all quietly fight. We all quietly, uh
try to find a balance. Now somehow we don't. We
musicians don't really discuss this kind of process that we

(59:30):
use because we have an image of ourselves being kind
of above the fray. You know, you feel that you
feel down, Let's play the blues whatever things. We're kind
of kind of given, uh more credit than is due
of maybe a pull over inst about these doul drums,
you know, I mean we love the imagery of being
a guy who does this, you know, and the fact

(59:54):
that the band is doing this because they're following your lead.
You've got to accept that responsibility and take care of it.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Man, do give rituals.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
I try to have quiet before I go to work.
My tech guy didn't understand that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
At first.

Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
We were driving. He picks me up, you know, drive
turn the music. I'm not turning music off, No, no, no,
I just need to clear my head from these things
that are in a way.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
I don't listen to music from come nowhere. I drive
to my car, turn the music off like a sponge man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
We all are.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Everything affects us. I try to limit those affecting events
as much as I can to to it. No music
in the car, don't talk to me. Talk to me
after the set because I'm still here and what I'm
trying to do for this next hour and a half.
And then make some strange looks occasionally, and then some

(01:00:47):
people get offended, and I'm sorry that they feel that way,
but as much better to feel that way. And now
didn't feel that way this way because I didn't do
my job.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
You do you find by taking that much time to
sort of before before you go to work, to clear
your head and kind of adjust your intent, so to speak.
But does that create any anxiety as well?

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Like is it I'm there because I belong there? Anything
in any anxiety may have maybe that someone touched the
baseball office out there, someone food with the knobs, you know,
physical things that I can't control and I accept, you know, Uh,
well it cracks me up. Man. When we were at

(01:01:32):
the club called Sweet Basil, uh seventh Avenues down and downtown,
the way we were set up, the audience had to
walk by the bandstand to get to the restroom, and
invariably on the animation someone wo walked by going to
the bathroom and hit the cymbals or do you like

(01:01:53):
to hold the piano? They had to see what they
had to They had to had to be a part
of the thing, man, you know, and uh yeah, you're
not a part of this. You're a part of this
part of the equation. Yeah, yeah, you get the guy
draws the line, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
When you you mentioned like physical distractions, do you ever
find you you've been playing the same base for decades, right,
sixty years? Does it feel different like another instrument some nights? Yes,
what is that? Well, you know, the base is a box.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
It's a box, a wooden box that's held together, that's
separated by a stick. It's called sound most about that
sound post. It would do like this just because the
pressure of the strings. It's also the fact that the
weather it affects the basis expanding contraction a small, small degree.

(01:02:51):
But you feel in the strains got off someome. You
get tighter, you know, the certain gigs that I don't do.
Because the bases land for an hour between sets and
a window and the windows kind of cold air, it's
gonna pick up the base. The base is literally freezing.

(01:03:12):
And now that turn the heat on. Now the base
which whitch got which got this way because there's been
cold there? And that goes like this and my hands,
my hands no difference right away, said oh man, I
got to play harder because the strings are so tight.
Now because of this, you know, my body's warm. The
lights are on. All these factors change the instruments physical

(01:03:36):
response because it's going like this ever so slightly. And
as they do this, the strings go higher as well.
You know they they stand there, but the strings are
moving just because this activity is going on. You know,
and it's always you know all it's just cracked me up, man,
and said, we go offrom the parking lot to the bandstand,
there have no chance to get warmed up, so to speak.

(01:03:57):
The bass didn't been walked into four blocks and in
the rain going to the gig, you know, going to
literally to the bandstand, you know, and uh, but that's
kind of the physical thing real we're we were looking
in every night, and I think the most we can
do is to be aware of there certain things we
can't control. We've got to be aware of that it's happening.

(01:04:20):
Though we can't say I didn't know what that. I
don't know what happened. How can you not know? Man?
You just walk four blocks in the rain, there was snow,
the basis cold, the heat's on on the badstand. How
could you not know that's going to affect this box
some kind of way. I think if they understood that,
they will have a less a little lower level of frustration,

(01:04:42):
and they would play it different because they understand they
got it. They warmed up, as the bass does physically
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
When you play in a theater, and especially with modern
sound systems, where they got the subwolfers projecting out the
thing and it comes bouncing back at you, and the
drums come bouncing back at your thirty milliseconds later. How
do you deal with that?

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
Well, I try to have the band not rely on
that relies so singly on the they all those things,
the monitors. Yeah, yeah, I want them to guy and
rely us. Must they can on what they hear immediately.
If I can get them to trust the band's sound
without this other stuff, this delay of the beat doesn't

(01:05:30):
take them so far out, so to speak. You know,
when you have your own monitors, guys, I think each
guy once says loud like it's just them more hard practice, piano,
soft pedal that you know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
Yeah, let's shift up from one said. You mentioned Tayo Macero.
You've worked with all the great producers, the legendary producers.
You Creed Taylor, you worked with Bob Field, Alfred Lyon.
I'm wondering, you know, from a Blue Note perspect to
certainly what made Alfred's records different. You happen to be

(01:06:13):
on the best records that I think are in our catalog,
from Speaking No Evil and Maiden Voyage and stuff with
Bobby Hutcherson, Real McCoy, all all the things she did
with McCoy. The players changed, but you're on all of
the best records. I think that's a strong testimony as

(01:06:34):
a like working with Alfred as opposed to other producers.

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
Alfred understood just a feeling, he would say, it's got
to say, it's got to say. He understood that emotion.
He didn't know anything else, by anything else. He didn't
know notes. He couldn't really know that he hit him
in the head on the subway, but he knew that

(01:06:59):
this thing didn't have the element he recognized. And the
band who understood how little Alfred knew about music. He
understood this primals, that God work, this this primal instinct
of swing. And when he said that, the band just

(01:07:19):
stopped in their heads, detegrating this guy and understood that
he was telling them that this stuff is not happening
because he can't feel it, and that's all he has
to tell him. And that was important to the bands.
All of those guys, man, all of them will say,
oh yeah, okay. The fact that he said that he
understood his limitations were telling them that wherever they were

(01:07:44):
it was the wrong place for this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Because he he wasn't intrusive, then.

Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
Helps him. He made sure we had lunch before, He
made sure that that's what the physical details and maybe
maybe maybe rehearsal sometimes there was none, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
His his his ability to put together the best set
of guys was another. It was a whole different kind
of skill that most producers don't have. Forever reason, you know,
my favorite player, but does he sound good with this guy?
Or who's gonna pull this state together? Who can we
trust to be the lynch pin? You know, who's gonna

(01:08:22):
those He had that sense of combinations that a lot
of producers don't happen to have. For another set of reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
M you know it's a casting director. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,
that's a big skill. Yeah who w wh Which producers
do you think? What with the the best th th
that she worked.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Was fit almost too many of the name cause y
you never know who they are until it's all over.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:47):
And and unless I hear the the to foind a product,
I I don't have that chance to track down most
of those sayings.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
So I do.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
I don't know who did their job better than somebody
else did. That's the other that's the courtion right now. Yeah, yeah, uh,
I just think that that they would call me for
their projects. They thought I could be a guy who
could help them do something that they thought they wanted. Yeah,
and I admire that skill. I admire them. Haven't heard
enough music during that kind of choice.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Duke Pearson was another person who was important at Blue
Note and was a player, but also.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
He also play trumpet.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Man played, Yeah, great player, but also produced records. Yea,
how was he as a.

Speaker 4 (01:09:25):
He he's a player who knew how to produce, not
the producer who played a little bit. That's not a
bit different. Yeah, and he played good too. By the way,
my footnote of that story is that Oran was trying
to get him to make he wanted to make one
more record. He moved on to Atlanta and all that
kind of stuff, and I was working in California, and

(01:09:49):
I ended up in Berkeley, which is where the Fantasy
Studio was a nice studio man and the good engineered
Jim Starn And and somehow Duke was ailing. But I
didn't understand that, and I think Orn didn't understand that either,
because no one really said why he was ailing, but
what it was. And then they come up to much later.
And anyway, Duke finally got got some kind we got

(01:10:11):
to California for this recording session with me and him.
You know, cause Duke has did a lot of duels
in New York when he was in New York and
Bradley's the the Lions here whatever they were, he kind
of had them hire me and him to do a
duel thing. Bradley's uh nick a blocker. I Anyway, when
Duke finally got out to the to California to make

(01:10:34):
this record, we were I was working at night with
who maybe my band, but I was at free during
the day. So we spent two or three days all
day hoping Duke would feel better enough to complete the
tune or something. You know. Uh, I'm not sure it
had on our efforts. You know, ultimately he passed away
from multiple scrosses who understood, but no one nailed that

(01:10:57):
as the cause of him having the physical dift of
the physical difficulties he was experiencing. And maybe I'm just
repeating the room I heard. I'm not sure, but ultimately
he couldn't finish cause he was in so much discomfort.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
It.

Speaker 4 (01:11:09):
Uh, but what what a you know, even the names
of the people who I knew who are who are
no longer. I call him left the concert and I
look around, man, and and I'm the when the last
guy's standing, and it's just I just get chills thinking
that I can't count on those guys to be there
wherever there is, you know, I can't count on those

(01:11:32):
guys to call him up and say every birthday, you know,
or I can't count those guys say now you stop that,
get out of here. Come on, as I've been known
to say, the guys who are getting in my nerve,
you know, my last nerve. As a matter of fact,
I miss those guys.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:11:48):
I'm some guys saying, man, how did you do that?
And I can't hear that from those guys, a lot
of them, so subject it calls me to sit back
and reflect on uh lonjevity.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Do you do you do you call a lot of
your old friends that are still around Sonny Rollins or
Herbie Hancock.

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
Yes, yeah, I just feel the spirits. Okay, I call
those guys, you know, I talk. I call that called
h A couple of guys doing their birthday and I
just have your birthday for him, you know, And it
tracks him up that I was stopped. Of course I
was stopping my day.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:12:24):
He's not that important in my life. Come on, it is,
that'stuff whatever it is, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
G let's talk about Wayne for a second. Yeah, one
of the kind. Yeah, how do you think about him?
How do you think about playing with him?

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
And when I first met Wayne, he was playing with
manon Fergus's band and uh his friends second tend I guess,
I don't know, doing them doing occasional arrangements, you know. Uh,
that's my first meeting with him. And also later I
met his brother Alan, who played a little bit trumpet,
you know, when they won the Avant guarde guys at
the time when not travel with the psop or Miles

(01:13:08):
is bad. My My my job was to do two things.
Not let Wayne buy too many books and uh kind
of translated what he said to the interviewer, you know
an and uh Wayne left at both of those jobs.
You know, He's gonna buy his books and he's gonna

(01:13:29):
say what he's gonna say, you know, and he's gonna
also write what he could write. And it's just a
g a great writer man. Yeah, he he I think
he understood, n not that the guys didn't. He understood
that the base sound was important, not specifically the note choice,

(01:13:54):
but of course that's part of it. M that's a B,
that's a not specifically to rhythm or not specifically maintain
the forum. He thought for him, the sound of the
base was so important that they made the band work
for him, if for another reason because of that, the

(01:14:15):
others were important to him. He wrote, stuffs off them.
They're kind of changes, different kind of form, different temple.
Of course they were important to him, but for him
that song was critical to his being in the band.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
And critical to his compositions.

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
And t Wayne to Wayne, two more questions and I'm
getting emotional hairs and that's kind.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Of okay, let's talk Let's talk about let's talk about
Ron Curter. Universe is one of the most remarkable things.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
Amazing. Yeah you said that too, Yeah, ask me how
they did it all. I can tell you, man that
people came by two nights ago with found at seventy
five more records to the universe. Yeah, I'm just stunned.
And this guy that's got that kind of like, guys,

(01:15:10):
who's you see them? The pizza shop just being guys.
But to be able to conceive of that and and
and put that in the form that it can be
added to as you discover them just mind boggling.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
People should check it out. It's it's a Ron Carter
universe if you if you search Ron Carter Universe dot com. Yeah,
and then the club I spelled the form are in
dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:15:40):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
It's just stunning, man.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Yeah, and I mean every I was going to say
it would be great if everybody could do it, but
everybody can't do it because you've played on so many records.
No one's got that kind of repertoire or the discography
where but I could spend hours on it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
And the more you find, the more other combinations you find,
the personalities and what record this is on the dates
and you get to a ten second on YouTube. But
it it just Yeah. Fortunately, you know, when I talk
to guys, I'm standing up otherwise so far off my
head sitting down. Let's say you guys be quiet.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
And l le let's also talk about all the all
the books you write. Y, you're a great educator, mentor figure.

Speaker 4 (01:16:29):
Well, Y, you know, I I think my age group
has responsibility, so that the next generation doesn't realize that
these people before them really impacted what they're trying to
do now, you know, And and I think, what what
what I've tried to do with my books, especially to
the bass players, gave them my head start on what

(01:16:51):
it takes, what tools it takes to do what they
think they hear with help from my processes and my books. Uh,
you know, don I I've always felt that unless the
bass player gets in the bands, the band really can't

(01:17:11):
cover a lot of different territory, because this is the
guy who does everything, you know. And I explain to
them my name's gets stunned, you know, I say, this
is the only guy in the band who plays every note.
He plays every beat, He pays every form, he plays
every groove, wherever it is, he plays every presence and

(01:17:35):
his his his, this his bareness for every beat of
every song. Forever woe. Players pay three courses and they
sit down and go to the bar beyond. Players clean
their fingernails during the base so long. Trummer's always doing
this fix or something. This is the only guy who
does every note, and unless he improves, he can't help

(01:17:57):
them grow. And most most badly, most members don't really
know how to help him, and they don't know how
to tell him what he needs to make him more
efficient with them. And it's not just louder man. You
know what about the note choice? How are you gonna

(01:18:19):
mark the form for us? How you gonna get us
in tune? You know? And I tell these guys said
that whenever A Miles will be at the stage, he'd
come back back in. He had two notes, he said,
run sharper flat, say too high man, cause the hard
got cold. All this you know deal, you know you
check check check me out because he trusted my sense

(01:18:40):
of this is a pitch man. I'm telling uh Russell
sharp man, let's go man, cause it hurts my hand.
I'm trying to find out exactly what the my base
wants me to play the note in the same place,
night in the night out. These guys don't allow it
to happen. They're playing sharper flat as as they will fine,
you know. So I think these are something on the

(01:19:02):
base player's responsibilities. Once he understands what they are, the
driver is to go somewhere someone who can help him
sharpen these skills that he needs.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
To have.

Speaker 4 (01:19:15):
To not just be a member of the band, to be,
but to be an integral part of the band, not
just sin I'm in the band, in the band, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Right, the QB.

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):
Yeah on my playlist right here, man, there's the changes.
Wait guys, sorry, yeah, good one more.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
One more yeah. Well. Two studios.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
There's many great studios, but there's two studios where some
of my favorite records have been made. One was Van
Gelder's Place in New Jersey and the other's Columbia thirtieth
Street Studio. And I've always been fascinated by Columbia thirty
Street because I can't go to it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
Yes, yeah, that's not fores ye. But one of my
favorite studios were Clinton.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
And then right now it's a it's a flat flat
the surface. There's nothing there at all. Man, there's the
fence around it. It's gone. I've been gone about ten years.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Where is it?

Speaker 4 (01:20:16):
Forty sixth Street and tenth Avenue. Right across the street
was a pottery shop called Muddy Fingers, and down the
street was the Old Folks Home. And there's two great
great rooms. And I made some wonderful sounding record that's
just see. The base was in charge that day.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
And when you get to record right, you own that sucker, man.
I have a record called All Along, That's what it is.
It's all alone, just me and the base sounded great
that day and Rudy captured the greatness of the sound
of the base. So all my stereo guys wanted to

(01:20:58):
check their guy out this record, just to tell you
how low it can sound good. It's just a wonderful
sounding disc. And Columbia had that came down the sound
weft the hall another one of my outdates with Miles.
Like Gil Evans, it was a great sounding room, just
because the air then then have a debase from vibrating

(01:21:19):
to it's optimum.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
But thirty Street wasn't necessarily available to everyone. Yeah, so
many good records there.

Speaker 4 (01:21:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It really really set the standard.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:21:35):
Fortunately they have able them been able to get the
historical landmarks so that they can't tear it down and
put a co op or a mom and pop store there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
They did get the historical land Yeah, they did get that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
A lot of work, a lot of paperwork, but they
had to wherewithal and and and never give up up
to them this to get the sucker done. And I
applaud them every hour because Rudy's Rudy's monument. It's necessary
to still be standing. It's not this, it's this. Can
you imagine these guys just taking the one master tape

(01:22:10):
and for the raise cutting it to edit distant. What
kind of skill is that man? He didn't miss He
nails an East one man. I'm telling you, yeah, incredible.
Here's a really good Wherever you are, Ludy, I take
my hat off to you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
Earned it many Thanks so much for doing this, mister Carter.

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):
Thank you, my friend, Thank you, my friend.

Speaker 1 (01:22:38):
Thanks so much to Master Ron Carter for opening up
to Don and me about his early life in music
and some of the friends he made along the way.
You can hear our favorite tracks written by or featuring
Ron Carter on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com.
You can also listen to this interview and other recent
episodes at YouTube dot com. Slash Broken Record podcast goes
all some video episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Up there too.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
Follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record PI. Broken
Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing
help from Derek Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
ben To Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider
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(01:23:22):
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Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
By Theme Music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,