August 5, 2025 • 57 mins
Chrystia Cabral is the experimental, often mystically-inclined Oakland artist who records as Spellling. Since her 2019 debut, she’s built a reputation for richly imaginative music that defies easy categorization. Her third album, The Turning Wheel, earned a rare perfect 10 from notoriously discerning online critic Anthony Fantano, who called it “stunning and beautiful.”
Today, Spellling joins Justin Richmond to talk about the making of her latest release, Portrait of My Heart—a bold evolution that deepens her blend of avant-garde, pop, and rock by adding new layers of mysticism and theatricality. She also reflects on her transition from teaching to touring, the intention behind every element of her sound, and the early days of her music-making, when she first began experimenting with gear.
You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Spellling songs HERE.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. I'm excited today to share a conversation with my
friend Tia Cabral, also known as Spelling. I've known Spelling
since before she started making music a bit over a
decade ago, and I'll never forget when I first heard
some of the songs that became her sophomore album, The
Turning Wheel. It blew me away. For this friend, who
(00:37):
I've known for so long, to just be casually demoing
these beautiful songs with such a gorgeous voice, that was astonished.
Mind you, that album got a rare perfect ten rating
from Anthony Fantano. Her latest album, Portrait of My Heart,
sees Spelling taking yet another leap, pushing her avant garde
pop and even rock sensibilities to another level, adding new
(00:57):
dimensions to the mysticism and drama imbued in her music. Today,
Spelling opens up about her journey from teaching to touring,
what it means to build a sonic universe where every
detail is intentional, the early days of her musical journey,
when she was just getting started. This is broken record,
real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Spelling. We
(01:27):
should talk about the new album because there's a lot
more guitar, and then as the album progresses there gets
to be even more guitar. It's really cool, but it was,
but it was shocking. But maybe before we get to
talking about the guitar, just what was the genesis of
your new album?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The genesis, I mean, it's the same kind of approach
I always take, which is I'm just channeling my mood.
And I felt as though what I noticed after putting
out The Turning Wheel and touring a little bit and
just kind of that felt like this turning point in
my life where this is what I'm doing with my
(02:04):
life kind of a thing, whereas before it was I
was just you're meaning a lot, And I didn't imagine
my day to day being oriented around making music or
performing music really until post Turning Wheel. And there's a
lot of variables to that. I think I'm in my thirties,
Like I didn't really actually activate this craft until I
(02:30):
was in my like mid twenties, you know, So there
was this I felt like I'd already gone through this
evolution in my life where I felt like I know
who I am, you know, I have this sense of
self and confidence that's not rooted in being a musician,
so you know, going through that, putting out the album,
getting like an amazing amount of support for it and
(02:55):
growing my audience and all that, and I just was like, whoa,
I feel like I'm having this second sort of adolescence
in my life where I'm like once again being shaken up,
like having an identity crisis almost like who am I now?
And how does this change my life path? And all
of those things and just insecurities coming up I just
(03:16):
never thought I'd have to encounter again, Like I already
went through this as a teenager, just being like what
does it mean to like, you know, my image, my
relationships and my romantic connections, my friendships, all of that
started to kind of get re oriented around now pursuing
this thing like full full force and full heartedly, and
(03:39):
so Portrait of my Heart. A lot of those songs
are just like, yeah, stepping back into that sort of
adolescent space of like oh man, just like a restlessness,
sort of angst, a lot of grasping and questioning at
those sort of things that I just already thought I
had figured out.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Would you say it's the songs to you are more
questioning and reaching than your last record.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Just in a different scale. And I think prior to this,
I had a lot of comfort in my home space,
and I you know, had my like spiritual practices and routines,
like I meditate, I spend time in nature, and like
I was channeling from there, like my interests in like
you know, occult arts and magic and spirituality and cosmology
(04:31):
like all of that stuff. Like I spent a lot
of time reading and researching and just writing, and so
I would draw from that, like and I think things
were you know, there's songs on Turning Wheel that are
very much about like love and romance and connection, but
kind of more pointed in this like cosmic scale loves
in like universal love or you know, like love is
(04:53):
in cosmic love and that kind of analogy. But with
Portrait of my Heart, it's just it's more one to one.
It's more just like tea and real life situations and
like personal affairs and my own matters of a heart.
So yeah, it's a big shift. And now now that
I'm talking about it, it's like, oh, yeah, this is
(05:17):
about to come out, and this is like my life,
and it's it's a little weird. It's it's like way
more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Wow, it's interesting because I would have thought the opposite,
not that I mean both seem very sincere, but I
would have thought that that Turning Wheel was more directly
to do with your everyday life and sort of more
maybe more actually a portrait of your heart than this one.
But I guess that's why, and I guess that's why
(05:43):
you title this one.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's all InTru laced too, you know, like it's just
kind of what I was, what I was describing as
being on a different scale. And but yeah, they're both.
I think the through line is intimacy. I think that's
a big theme on all the things that I make,
is like intimacy with the self and with relationship or
(06:07):
connection to spirit and the those kinds of things are
carrying through since Pantheon of Me and to Portrait of
my Heart as well.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Since you talked about like having different practices, whether it's
meditation or just kind of communing with nature. Is music
another version of that for you?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah? Absolutely, it kind of feels like for me it
was the big piece of like, Oh, I found where
I can really direct my purpose and feel like I
can direct my like particular gifts and talents in the
right way, and so music is that for me. And
(06:48):
it's kind of like my big take on spirituality in
general is just what can you do to you know,
elevate your like best abilities and you know, make an impact.
I struggle with connecting to people, even though I want to,
(07:08):
and I yeah, and I think that music kind of
like always helps me to bridge that. Like it's the
thing that connects me to all, like all let my
relationships and friendships, even my family.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Like how does that play out in your life? How
does that look in your life?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I mean it's really like it's really simple just sending
songs back and forth with friends. It feels like I
can know you so well just by that, you know.
And my dad and I our relationship is really been
kind of glued together through music, and you know, he'll
send me YouTube videos back and forth throughout the week.
That's kind of like how we mostly communicate is like
(07:43):
through songs. And I don't know, I think like knowing
what someone loves or what speaks to them is so
special and it like just access to something you couldn't
really describe really with words ever. And that's how I
feel about just like speaking in general, too, Like I
have such a hard time like saying what I mean
and how I feel, but I can do it with music.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And when I first met you, you were a writer. Yeah,
it's how in my mind. Yeah, So when it comes
to writing, though, you're able to organize and your thoughts
and sort of clearly get out what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Better than like conversation for sure, But even then it's
not as immediate like music just is like something that's
just so immediate and it doesn't need like a translation
for me, like I just feel like I can just
act as a conduit. And yeah, I started off with writing.
You know, you saw me doing poetry workshops and stuff
(08:41):
like that, and that was what really launched me into
making music. From there, I was like, oh, poetry is
this other like vein of music where you can say
a lot with just a few things and have all
these multiple meanings and just a couple of words. And
so I was playing around with that and then got
a loot pedal and good, all right, I think I
(09:10):
cringed thinking about that chapter of my life. We can
we don't need people digging into that.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
But that was the first time I ever met you.
Do you remember, do you remember meeting.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah at a workshop.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Not at a workshop. We were on like telegraph and
and you were, I think, just leaving a workshop. And
I had walked from like downtown, but on foot on
I was hooking it just like I was like, okay
a bus. I was like waiting for a bus and
was taking forever, so I wanted to start walking and
a bus will eventually. I don't know how. I walked forever,
(09:47):
and then finally a bus came and you came up.
A couple of different other.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
People, Yeah, a couple of other poets, a couple of
the poets telegraph.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Casually a couple of the poets materialized and we rode
the bus together. And that was Remember that was for
something to me, like, yeah, we just came from this
you like like we were still over there this poetry.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, oh man, what a time. Yeah, it really felt
like serendipitous, the friends I made along that journey, like
being at E. C. Berkeley and yeah, really just like
romanticizing walking around Telegraph Avenue, just like you were doing
it my little journal.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, but never did you know. It's fun And like
you say, you feel now almost like you're reaching a
second adolescence it's like I can relate because I never
I feel younger in a way than I ever did,
because back then I felt like old. I felt like
or like I was like.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Like, like, do you have a timeless quality to you?
I feel like you're like you could jump back back
and forth and thank you.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'll accept that. I'd never considered that for myself, but
maybe that's the truth. But like that, I felt like
I was like running out of time. Like I don't
know how to explain that, but I felt I was like,
I remember when you picked up but then you were
about to say you started picking up some loop pedals.
If I remember were you getting music equipment? And I
remember like looking at you and just being like are
we too old for this?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Ship? I remember this conversation I feel like we were
talking about. I was like, I think I'm gonna start
doing this.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And you're like, I'm about to learn. Like you got
like a keep, you were so excited you got a keyboard,
and like all the time, I'm like like, and I
think you know somewhere, I think you know I probably
would have loved and have done the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
The time you're trying to take me down, aren't we aren't.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
We I just want to bring down with me, like
I think we're like too old for this ship, Like
what are you afterwards?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Like let me see if I can what I can. Yeah,
but it blew me.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Away because like it's like you you started doing that
and then like pretty quickly the music you were making
was psycho.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I mean, I'm glad that it was quick because I
didn't have time to waste, you know, like if it
was sorted out within the next few years, then what No.
I mean, I think I've always had the mentality of
feeling like a late bloomer, feeling like my pace is
like a little bit behind everybody else. So good thing.
I wasn't in that frame of mind where I want
(12:15):
I wasn't running, you know. I was like this is
this is happening, and I'm doing it and yeah, there
there wasn't a lot of questioning right at that point
in my life. Now there is. Now there's a lot
more of like what's to come and what's next? And
I you don't I have to actively work to like
(12:36):
cast those thoughts away. But yeah, I'm curious, why do
you feel like you're you feel like younger than you
have previously, you feel like it's about sort of having
some security that.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
That's a good question. I don't know. I think it's
something to do with I don't know that that feeling
of running out of time has gone away, Like I
feel like I.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Have coasting, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
No, I don't know about coasting as much as I
hope I'm not gonna be maybe I hope not, though, No,
but I just feel like I have more time than that,
which is so I like the complete opposite feeling was
whereas then I felt like there was not there was
no time and I was late, and you know, like
now I'm like, oh, there's.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Nothing trying to catch that bus.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I just trying to catch that bus exactly. But
but now, yeah, I guess maybe now I'm on the
bus and I'm like, yo, there's there's nothing but time.
And so it's just that it's just a feeling. I
don't know if it's even like a real thing.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I mean, I think that's a real that thing that
can manifest physically though, Like I feel like you can
pause or slow down time depending on your perspective and mentality.
It's like it stretches and it contracts and it condenses
like depending on all of those things. But like you're
time traveling different than I am and everybody else. It's
(13:56):
an interesting sensation. I feel like time is just like
rapidly going by so fast, Like I feel like I'm
constantly running out of time.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Totally switch physicians. So what change? What changed for you?
Because because you know, it's like, I don't know, I've
never like I don't even I hesitate to say that,
like you've clearly hit your stride because like I've always
thought of you as a person who was like top
tier at like whatever whatever you were doing, I always
feel like you were doing it well. So I feel
like you've kind of always been in your stride. So
(14:26):
I don't mean it that was competitive.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
They gotta at least give that impression even if I'm not.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, I believe I believe you are secretly competitive. But no,
but but it me. I mean, you've clearly like carved
out like a really nice space for yourself. So why
do you feel like now you're feeling.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I mean, I just it's more of like a sentimentality thing,
like I don't want it to go away, Like I
don't want the I want it to last longer. So
maybe it's actively thinking about that that can speed up things.
You know, it's I think there's this resistance is an
interesting principle where it's like, yeah, the more you are
(15:07):
resistant to something, the more push back against you. So
I think me being like I want to dwell in
this moment for as long as I can, and like
kind of like almost like feeling like mourning that this
time is gonna not last forever. That makes it go
by quicker. So it's just like you got to practice
I tried to remind myself to practice like more presence,
(15:30):
and you know, everything runs its course in certain ways,
and who knows, Like, I mean, this is a current
that I'm in right now, but there's so many other
creative like potentials for the future, and like I didn't
see this coming for myself, Like at that time when
we were talking about music, I was just like, I'm
just gonna get some keyboards and mess around. I didn't
(15:52):
see this as where I would be at all, So
who knows what's next in ten years?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah? Is this feeling where uh like, keep it keep
it alive comes from oh yeah a song?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. That track makes me anxious to
listen to. I enjoy it, but yeah, that's definitely the
quality in it is trying to just stay ahead and
outpace the maybe responsibilities and you know, inevitable endings. It's
(16:28):
kind of the the vibe on that one.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Do you remember Strumer sitting down to write that.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I remember that strangely a lot of times, the songs
that I end up making our versions of other songs
that people might never make the connection to. Like I
was listening to it's like an eighties Marvin Gaye album,
and there's the opening of it. The strings on it
(16:55):
are doing something really weird, and I kind of ripped
the stringline a little bit from this track and it
created this sense of like chaos. But in his version,
of course, it's like super dreamy and romantic and like lush,
and I'm like, I'm gonna kind of borrow this like
chord change and put it in this context and it's
(17:16):
gonna sound super hectic.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Was it the sexual Healing album?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
No, it's Dream of a Lifetime, So it's it's it's madness.
You know that one, And I don't know that you
should listen to it. And now I'm wondering if you related.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
At all, probably not because I didn't hear any Marven
on this, but I mean that's kind of the cool
That's why that's a that's a really cool approach to
making something because it's like it's kind of like it's
like sampling in a way, like it's like taking something
from something that you really like and it's turning it
making it work for you, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, and the song, like the lyrics, it's like he's
saying it's called it's madness, so he's kind of dealing
with I think, similar ideas with it where it's like
time running out and like sort of like living in
a cyclone in your mind, and he's he's like, oh
with is Mama, And he's like it's an interesting and
(18:11):
weird song where it's like super dreamy and beautiful, but
then the lyrics are kind of dark and yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well Marvin's Casey really was running out of time too,
which is the eerie thing. Yeah, but you know, like
I wonder like with him, you know you could you
can go to also like a like a like a
guy like Tupac obviously to right, he's always like rapping
about his own death and it's like prophetic yeah, like
was it prophetic or did you make it real? You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
So I just wonder Jeff Buckley too, But I've been
spending a lot of time listening to Grace. That was
a sort of entry point into like how am I
going to shape the sounds on Portrait of My Heart too,
and thinking about his like it kind of sounds like
sometimes when he's singing, he can censor, like perceive running
(19:06):
out of time, and there's that like almost desperate to
his voice that makes it so good.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, I wonder though, like how much of that is
is like perceiving truth or reality or how much of
that is just like people reading signals wrong or just
you know, like I don't know, like.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, or sabotage self sabotage, sabotage you know, like yeah, yeah,
it's interesting. It's kind of like I always reference that
like meme of the cartoons on the bus, like ones
looking at the window all happy looking and the other
one's like sad, and it's like it'll stay the same thing,
Like I just saw it yesterday and it's like I
(19:49):
don't understand David Lynch And it's like someone looking at
the window looking all happy and then the sad person's
like I don't understand David Lynch. It's like it's just
like yeah, you know, like I'm running out of time,
like I could be really depressed about that, or I'm
running out of time like you know, things are just
gonna happen, and you can like it can be to
(20:09):
your empowerment to see it that way. Sure, I guess
I don't, Like I don't know next topic.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I don't know if I can find the framing of
that to be a I mean, it might be maybe
that's my limited perspective. That might be my you know,
my hang up. I'm not sure, but I know what
that feeling is, and you know, I just so much
preferred not to be it's a because it can be
(20:42):
limiting in its own way, you know, Like like again
like where you were when you started this music thing
is like certainly you were not in that space and
that allowed you to, you know, just be more improvisational,
like I want to get this keyboard and mess around
and then you know, you just never know when you're
(21:04):
improvising in life like what that can lead to, you know,
And that's a living more in that space to me,
even though like you know, you listen to more and
that guy he's just he's so tortured and the music
is so beautiful, but I just prefer it just seems
like life is better when you're when when when you're
(21:25):
allowing yourself the lee way to you know, try things
and not feel like I have to do this because
there's not you know, I don't enough time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I got to do this now, I know, I know,
and I want. I think going forward a lot of
conversations and like some album interviews I've been doing, the
more I talk about the like journey and the origins
of this project and where it's headed, I feel so
like I have to continue to nourish the things that
(21:57):
feed that and feel that because it's gotten me to
this place. And the more I try to like play
by the book or follow them the sort of industry standard,
it's gonna strip away more than it's going to add.
And I don't necessarily know what that will look like yet,
(22:17):
but I think it's something that's just actively on my
mind and going to start, you know, looking for more
opportunities to recreate kind of like the improvisational space you're describing,
where it's like you're not I'm not feeling pressured to
or obligated to do things a certain way and with
(22:40):
the portrait of my heart, and I had to see
it through. It was what was calling to me. And
I'm really happy with how it all came together. And
but there is this I can feel my intuition being
like what's next is stripping back again and kind of
going back into like a solo approach and getting messier
(23:01):
with my stuff because I've gained a lot of technical
skill and like you know, spent that put the work
in on, Like I know how to make the things
I want and they can somewhat match what ideas I have.
I didn't have that when I was working on Pantheon.
I was just like fruit Loop, Studio free Edition, like Audacity,
(23:22):
just like record. I don't know how to fix that.
So it's just going to be that way. And then
you know, like I don't know what I was doing
at all, so.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
But you didn't know, and but like you, but like,
but it's not true, Like you you managed to make
something that felt right to you at least I think
or felt right to other people. I mean, that's a
that's a great project. But you've definitely gained like the
ability to maybe be more precise.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, maybe be more precise, and yeah, just know more
how to use like do things more efficiently because I
spent a little like it took a long time to
make things that I could do a lot quicker now.
But yeah, I look forward to that. I want to
just I have another set of songs that I was
(24:10):
working on kind of alongside Portrait of My Heart and
decided to just go with the like funnel those and
to the like a little more pop sensibility album. But
then the other stuff is like a lot more lo
fi and just more like the Witchy Spelling origin stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
We'll be back with more from Spelling after this break.
Spelling as the uh you know the name you release
stuff under, is that is that witchy in origin?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's yeah, somewhat, yeah, sort of in the more of
like it was funny to me as a name. I
liked that the word itself kind of made me think
of like a creature and I would like imagine myself
as this little like elevin creature name spelling, and but yeah,
just it was just a reference to words, and like
(25:07):
words is magic and cantation, and I think, yeah, the
early stuff I was making like Creola Church. It was
like a lot of repetition, just a lot of like
repeating words over and over until it felt like it's
turning into some sort of hypnotic state. And that's where
that comes from.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
In this Is there any of that in your mind
in the on the new project, in the new album, Like,
is that still a part of what you're doing or somewhat?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I mean, I think I'm always the biggest things I'm
always inspired by are usually like books and literature, poetry,
and so those influencers are always there. Even when I'm
describing like oh, these are like more just like matters
of the heart and like situational like love stories and
(25:58):
things like that, It's still still very much being drawn
from like a lot of like research and interests and
that kind of stuff. And Portrait in My Heart was
the first song that kind of opened up the floodgates
for what was to come after with the rest of
the album.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And that was the first song you wrote.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That was the first song I wrote. Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
The line thea like that came to me on the
when I was on the piano, and I remember it
sounding kind of like a halftime thing likea.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Like that, I'm very like slow, and I was like
this is cool, Like this is giving. I don't know
what this is giving, but it's got something. And then
I was frustrated with like I felt like it needed
to be more aggressive and I felt fresh, Like I
was like, I don't want to make another like long, slow,
(26:59):
dramatic song like I want to. I just want to
switch it up. So then I started messing around with
the drum machine and when I had that like like that,
and then I changed the way that the line came through,
and then Yeah, the vibe of that whole track on
(27:20):
my mind at the time was like what's next and
what's to come? Like feeling like I'm running out of
time all those things, and like feeling a lot of
apprehension and self doubt as far as like god, being
an artist, you're just like constantly thinking about yourself, like
this kind of sucks, Like I'm tired of this, Like
(27:41):
I'm tired of hearing my own boys, I'm tired of
what I have to do next, And I just feeling
like it's so selfish to be my so self absorbed,
you know, with but that's what it takes to make
the thing. So yeah, the song is kind of about
that and just feeling like, you know, you're pursuing your
pursuing your idea to this extreme where you're starting to
(28:04):
like lose track of reality, lose track of what's important
to you and your life, and things really just start
to fade away, and you like live in a delusion,
and a lot of times, like to make the best things,
you gotta like live in the delusion. And so I
was fully living in that, and the lyrics came through
(28:24):
like that, like lost, shattered in the dark, stranger in
my head. It's like grappling with like the artist self
and creating a kind of like a prison of your
own imagination. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I haven't really thought about it that way, but it's
like one of the great ironies of being an artist,
I guess is you're constantly I guess it's by nature
a bits it is a bit selfish, or maybe there's
another way of thinking about it, but that definitely is
you know, yeah it.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I mean it's a beautiful part of it too, and
that's that's the song is kind of just questioning all
these things, and I think the spiritual portion that comes
in is like this feeling or sensation sometimes that I have.
It's like my relationship with God and feeling like God
is the ultimate artist, and like has you know, placed
certain like circumstances or situations for each individual life and
(29:21):
like what you push back or what you contribute towards
it versus what you don't how much of that is
like your responsibility and like almost even like as being
as an artist, are you like challenging against like your
nature and what God intended you to do? So that
that's kind of like I.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Mean, so you feel like maybe God was not intending
for you to be an.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Artist, yeah, or maybe that your those like your gifts
or abilities could be better placed through other things instead
of this, Like was.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It teaching that was the other thing?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Could you another thing?
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I could see another life path where that was like
where I like put my efforts and my gifts towards
or I don't know, like being a mother or being
like you know, these other roles or yeah, these other
roles in life that like I haven't necessarily chosen or
hasn't haven't happened. So that was the crisis of that song.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, I don't know, like choosing Yeah, I don't know,
just as like a parent now three times over. I
don't know, I don't think I've ever chose.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You were chosen.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, it was that was the other way I was chosen. So,
you know, I'm just sure when it's funny, we always
think about that as a good you know, when I
talk to other people, like, I don't know if I
want to, I don't know if it's like so much
up to you, you know, I don't know it's so
much up to any of us, you know. So you know,
but it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean, well, it's not that I see it that way.
It's just that kind of like those curiosities coming up,
you know. And yeah, I encountered some like weird poem
that was talking about an artist as like a thief
or like a sort of like a con artist, like
you know, like portray reality in a way that it's
(31:10):
not and like taking your money for it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
And it's it's just like a weird, funny, interesting concept
to me, right where it's like an artist kind of
demands a lot from you they can, and there's this
of like narcissism involved, and it's like their their job
is to like create a reality that's not reality. And
like sell you on it.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
This is a that's a very Bay area. Yeah, person,
I'm living down here in l A. And it's like
normal than me. Take the money and run.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I know. That's why I need to move down here.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, but no, but it's not like it's not a
it's not a wrong interpretation, but you know, or that
certainly can seem true.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
What other stuff were you reading or watching or listening
to around this?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Hmm? I did a lot less of that. I mean
also for Portrait of My Heart. I had seen that
movie What Dreams Bake and that also like inspired with
Robin Williams and Cuba getting juniors in it, and he's
the angel if I ever saw it, he did it.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I remember the movie It's Freaky.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
That also lended into a lot of the like imagery
in that song, because it's like he his wife passes
away and he's trying to like rescue her from health
and he goes on this whole odyssey and uh, the
way she was a painter in the movie and so
like her re out, like her Heaven I think is
like all like watercolor painting, and it's like really beautiful.
(32:42):
She moves through it and it's like the trees are
all rippling with paint and stuff, and so that that
was the I had seen it a long time ago
and always was kind of freaked out by it by
it and it's a really intense movie, but it's also
so beautiful, and I had watched it again and that
kind of helped me with that song Portrait of My
Heart and just like kind of like that theme in
(33:02):
general of just like painting and yeah, and yeah, other
books like mount Anlo that's a song based off that,
And that's a book that I really enjoyed. I found
it at.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Wait, it's a book, Mountain, not analog. I didn't know
there was a book. Yeah, I loved that title.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, I was just gonna call it an analog. But
I'm glad I threw I kept the Mountain so anyone
can like look it up and hopefully read it. It's
I found it. There's this bookstore and Silverlate called Stories.
One of the times I was out here, it was
up on the shelf for like staff picks, and I
was like, oh, it's like inspired Alejandro Jodrowski's Holy Mountain,
(33:45):
and so he was inspired by that book to make that.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Movie and analog. Yeah, no way, well.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful. It's just like it's like
an adventure story about a group of mountaineers that try
to scale this mythic mountain that's supposed to exist somewhere,
but it's like hidden from from view and you can
only you know, find it if you're coming with like
(34:13):
a pure heart and intentions. And there's just like weird
mystical concepts in it that I really latched onto and
it tried to infuse in the song. And you know,
they're like sailing towards this mountain, so I'm sort of
trying to create that. Like there's like this noise starts
and like grows all the way up till the end
(34:35):
of the song. It'supposed to sound like waves. Tried to
like set the scene that way.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, good music can be so dense sometimes in like
really cool ways, Like like I don't mean that dense,
maybe lush is the word, but do things tend to
start more simply and then did they come to you
sort of like with almost pre arranged in a sense
of like you kind of know all the different kinds
(35:00):
of sounds you want in this thing.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I think that's that's more the case like I usually have.
It's more about reeling back than like adding a bunch
more like That's never really been a big struggle with
me as far as like arranging or writing a song.
Was just like some people describe like they can't stop
or they keep adding stuff or don't know when to stop.
I feel like I always know when to stop, and
(35:24):
usually I'm kind of stripping things back. That's kind of
more the process and some more than others. Like I
think the most challenging track was Waterfall, where I played
around with so many different versions and like tempos and
nothing felt quite right and we landed somewhere that I'm
happy with. That's my favorite song on the album, as
(35:44):
long as it's capturing the core in a really authentic
way that I'm happy and I kind of feel like
the ornamentation of things can kind of be interchangeable.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
What makes Waterfall your favorite song?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I think because it was such a puzzle to hack
and like figure out that it was just so satisfying
once it really clicked, because I was kind of like, damn,
am I going to compromise and just kind of put
this out even though it doesn't feel one hundred percent right,
and I really didn't want to do that. And then
at the last minute it kind of fell together. And
I was in Athens, Georgia mixing the album with Yeah,
(36:23):
like a couple days left, and I still didn't have
the lyrics really figured out. I was like, well, mix
the song last and like hopefully something comes together. And
I was driving home and it's like the like the
like country South darkness that's like ooh, like it's just
you feel it and your bones kind of a thing.
(36:43):
And I was driving and listening to the demo and
like started to get that like shivery feeling where it's
like ooh, I feel like kind of scared but like
also like dangerous right now. And I felt like this
rush of like I don't know, just like a flash
of inspiration and helped me figure out the lyrics on that.
(37:04):
But it was amazing. There's always there's always a story
like that, like last minute some things like he had
to get to this point to finally be handed that.
That's how I feel about that track, So it's a favorite.
And also just the lyrics are super special to me.
It's about losing somebody and like I lost a friend
(37:25):
of mine, David who also inspired me to start making music,
and so I had him in mind and was like
thinking about him through this process and like kind of
being like my guiding angel through this whole experience of
being an artist. Now, so the song is dedicated to
him and thinking about grief as like it's just change
(37:48):
as a form.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Of change, and yeah, yes, what what happened?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
He died tragically and he was hit by a unibus
and it was like he was only we were all
like in our early twenties twenty two at the time.
This was at the Telegraph house that we were all
living in, so he was one of my roommates. And
this is like a beautiful, flamboyant person who would just
(38:16):
like bust into my room all the time and be like,
let's go do stuff together. So I moved into his
room after he had passed, like later months later, and
that's when I started getting music equipment because I was
like I feel him. I could feel him in the room,
and I feel like he would want me to be
making stuff. Wow, Yeah, I wanted to, like I always
(38:38):
sing and like make things, but I didn't think my
voice was strong, Like it was something that I didn't
push it or try to like take it seriously. So yeah,
I was like, this is just another tool for me
when I started making music to like, you know, just
kind of like the like producer who also makes music
sort of thing where the voice is just being utilized
(39:00):
hopefully like as another instrument. But it wasn't something like
where I came in as like I'm a singer and
then you know, I feel a lot more confident in
my voice now it's grown on me. But yeah, moments
of songs like Alibi or certain songs, I'm just like
it feels like to me, like to me too much
me in there.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's too much like in this track like Analog, where
it's like I can kind of feel like I'm like
I'm just a part of the music more got it, Yeah,
part of the tapestry. And then in Alibi it's like
I'm gotta be like deliver in this this other way
where it's just a different sensation.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It is a pretty straight straight ahead song. You know
that feels new for you on the album, And I
was mentioning earlier like the abundance of guitar also feels
new for you. Yeah, how did that come together? Like
what when did you realize you were gonna that was
gonna be drive a lot of the sound.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I guess when Portrait clicked in the way that it did,
I was like, Okay, I'm going back in time. I'm
going back to this like sort of high school self.
What was I listening to then? What were the things
that fueled that attitude? And I needed to kind of
like get in my radio head bag, my like system
(40:21):
of a down and smashing pumpkins and all of the
like kind of nineties grunge rock stuff, And that just
made it sense to me, like, oh, I'm gonna it's
gonna be guitar based, and that'll be a sort of
like touchstone for the first time, because I think before
(40:42):
then I never like I didn't just made whatever and
like let the song demand what instruments to use. And
this time I'm like, I want to have a little
bit more of a centerpiece here. So rock Palette.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You forced the issue, We're gonna issue.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Sit on it.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, stay visits down what I don't even know who
played guitar on that?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
No, my band, So in my band right now, Wyatt
plays guitar. He played all the songs on Portrait, and
we had a couple of guests like on Alibi, Pat
from Turnstile like also played on that and Braxton from Zulu.
So yeah, but Whyatt held down and like helped me
like arrange and write a lot of this stuff. And
(41:28):
then Julio it's our bass player. He's a jazz player.
He's like you know his style. He's like a music addict.
He can't stop playing music, you know, like every day
he has a gig. And he always mixed the live
performances really dynamic. And I'll be like, Okay, we have
our set lists. This is what we're gonna do every night,
(41:49):
you know, because it feels good to kind of just
like lock in and get better at the same thing.
And he'll be like, this is boring. We gotta do
like I'm gonna do something different every night, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Like, so who's on Satisfaction? Is that? Why?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
That gets pretty hardcore? What did that call him at
the end? Or were you like we're gonna for sure
just gonna like funny, did you know from the jump
that you were going to song would end up like yeah,
turn that into like a slayer.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I'm trying to remember where that song even when I
wrote that one. I think it was kind of like
having this more like wicked synth flare to it at first,
Like I remember making that the guitar line that's like
no no, no, no no no, and it kind of
had more of like a Queen of Wands sort of
(42:43):
like prog synth rock feeling to it. Like I started
to get real theatrical with like all the synth work
and stuff, and I'm like, what would it sound like
it was stripped down and just like a much more
brutal and just guitar instead of all this like chaotic
synth stuff happening.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Like the guitar was down bad for a while. Yeah,
like it could use a renaissance, like I like having music,
so I was, but it's just it was such a
wild that wasn't a flavor I was used to from
your song.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I know, yeah, I know. I mean I think about
some Pantheon stuff and like I would have the impulse
to do kind of what I'm doing on Satisfaction or
with like other heavier tracks, but it's like I just
didn't have the means too, like real fun. I tried
to kind of go there and make this like sort
of like doom metal guitar, but with the synth. So
(43:42):
I would just like emulate what I wanted to sound
like on on the gino And what did it lived
like that I was saying, I feel like the got
to channel some of those like the first instances of
music that felt like they were different than what I
was like growing up listening to, Like my mom listened
(44:03):
to a lot of neo soul and R and B
and all that stuff really still comes through too, like
in the nineties, like Mary J. Blige, like she's one
of the people who taught me how to sing, and
Randy and Monica and Tony and like.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
You was like singing other records.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah yeah, and then you know, so that was the
music I was like raised on and like in my
household and like but then I think some of the
like alt rock stuff I got into, like AFI and
like pop punk stuff.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
That was your dad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
No, it was like me in like a suburb and
like going to Borders Bookstore and being like raised by
Borders Bookstore and like you know that I'm speaking to
kind of like oh, hearing something else and feeling like
what is this like for hearing like system of a
down for the first time and being like, oh, what
(44:53):
is this feeling happening right now? Like I didn't know
I had like these sort of sensations inside, but it's
speaking to something that was there. And yeah, so Portrait
of my Heart kind of like drawing from that alt
rock palette that kind of felt like it kind of
fueled this new fascination and interests in like this is
(45:14):
my music too, Like this this is stuff that I
really connect with.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And like, you play and you played some shows with Turnstile,
didn't you?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I did? Yeah, yeah that's I saw Brendan Gates go
on some podcast maybe and say how he loves Little
Deer and I was like what it made me so happy?
And then I think I reached out like DM tim
(45:41):
or something was like no way, Like that's so cool
that you even listened to Spelling asked us to play
some shows. We played open for them in Vegas and
like Tucson, I think, no, Yeah, it was. It was
so interesting to stand up there in front of their
crowd in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Vegas.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, there was a lot of confusion. Yeah, there's a
lot of like puzzled looks and then kind of like
saw some people converted, like.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
The best kinds of shows of I love those, man.
I love when it's just not like the perfect match
for the audience, you know, like that's the most fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
I thrive on that too, Like I like seeing the
sort of perplexed crowd and then some heads nodding and
be like I don't know, okay, Yeah, it was a
lot of fun. And I love his voice like a
(46:45):
portrait of my heart. We're working on doing a remix
with him, so like featuring him on one of the tracks.
It's just gonna be really great.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
After this break, we'll be back with the rest of
my conversation with Spelling. Yeah, you're doing a whole remix
like release of that album, but it's not gonna come.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, just be a few tracks, and like Simon and
I are working on those like remixed versions. And the
last two years of just put more effort into connecting
with other artists like that I really like like Brendan,
and it to me like that's the biggest like affirmation
along the way, like, oh, these artists I really love,
(47:28):
like they love Spelling, and what can I like gain
from that as far as just like creative collaboration and
seeing what fusion will come from, because I think it's
pretty all over the spectrum. Like the people who are
interested in Spelling isn't like they aren't coming from this,
Like I'm interested in the music because I like hardcore music,
or I like, you know, this style of music, or
(47:51):
it's just all over the map.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Like because I don't know if there's like I don't
know if you could do an algorithmic like if you
listen to Spelling, you would also like like it's nothing
like father to your style.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
You know, there's like sometimes I've like heard my music
pop up on things I wouldn't expect it to, like algorithmically,
But then I'm like, oh, I do see the crossover there,
Like what, I'm a big fan of Cibo Matto and
I was listening to their album that it sort of
shuffling other stuff, and then one of my old songs
(48:27):
was like a jump scare. I was like, what, why
does this sound so familiar? It was Dirty Desert Dreams
from Mazy Fly, and I was like, why is this
playing right now? Yeah? That just sort of I guess
like synth music.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, I guess, but I don't know. I mean, yeah, yeah,
you definitely have a unique style. Yeah, an amalgamation a lot.
There's a lot going on in there. This is the
remix I guess, or they just like duets or like
wait what are the Yeah? How much are you changing
the songs?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I want to change them more like Simon and I.
He's fantastic also, like we have great chemistry. He worked
on the track sometimes on That's Just My Bloody Valentine
cover on Portrait of My Heart, and he also did
Waterfall and Drain, so he helped me just co produce
those and then I was like, oh man, this was
so cool. And I didn't really connect with him until
(49:27):
towards the tail end of the whole process, and I
was like, I wish we would have connected way earlier.
But it's cool. And now I'm like, yeah, let's definitely
do the remixes together. So so far we're working on three.
There's I kind of wanted to like keep this a
surprise though, like who the features are.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Gotta gotta gotta got it. He worked with the Rabbi
Zell on the project. Who you know, it's done a
lot of good work for us and like a bunch
of other people, how was that?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It was great? You know, I feel like that was
my first experience working with the producer. Everything has been
self produced before, so there's there was definitely like a
sort of an internal struggle at the concept at first,
and I knew it would really it would really benefit
(50:16):
me and help me grow just to get that opportunity.
So when in and I feel like fifty to fifty,
like you don't know if you're gonna vibe with someone
then you can even if you like get along, and
like it's like, how is that going to translate when
it comes to like these creative decisions? And so I've
come a long way as a person as far as
(50:37):
like being able to even be in that scenario and
context like what you so would probably just give me
so much dread and anxiety. But he's the loss of control,
the loss of control and also just having to make
decisions with someone, you know, because I think when I'm
working on my own and solo capacity, which I usually
(50:57):
do producing, it's like I can take as much time
as I need and like, you know, like there isn't
this need to communicate actively, like it's just an internal communication.
So I was like still a little nervous, but he's great,
Like he's made everything feel so casual. I don't know
what I was expecting, but yeah, he just had this
(51:19):
confidence and like he remember him being like he showed
me what he was sort of starting out with and
he's like and I was already really digging it, and
he's like, yeah, don't worry, You're gonna leave here with
something you love. Like just like I was like, okay, confidence,
I promise, I guarantee it. No, So he just had
(51:41):
like a really good like, Oh he's great.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Like he knows how to like, you know, he knows.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
What he's doing, he knows what he's doing, and he
had I like that sense of assurance because I, you know,
I don't want to be in the room with someone
that's like m you know, like uh, like I want
like do what you do best and like work from that.
And like that felt really comforting just to like things
didn't feel awkward at all. And also it was just
awesome to see that was my kind of my all
(52:08):
only one of few experiences seeing someone just like operate
as a producer too, and I'm like, oh, he's doing
these things or whatever, and like I do a lot
of this stuff too, you know, Like it was just
like affirming to be like, oh, there wasn't a blueprint.
There's so much experimentation. There's so much just like fucking
around with this like tape reel and still the like
(52:29):
sensations of imposter syndrome come up or it's like what
I do, is that good enough? Or is it like
refined enough or whatever? And techniques and it's like we
all don't know what we're doing in some capacity, like
the idea of expertise is so relative, and especially in art. Yeah,
but yeah, he's he's brilliant and like really helped me
(52:51):
to like stand on ideas I had and be like no,
like try it, like actually do it, and would follows through.
And we came up with some just like some really
fun stuff on Portrait, particularly like we were like strumming
this trying to get real like pet sounds with it,
like i'ming the piano keys and like doing all these
(53:12):
effects on it and just adding subtle little like stuff
that made a big difference. And I came in with
this version of the song that was like once again
like an eight. It was like eight minutes long, and
he's like, this is cool, but cut this, cut like
cut it in half.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Was there like other sections or the preamble.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
I always do this too, And he's like, it's just
my pop mind, just kind of saying like this doesn't
happen again anywhere else in the song. I'm like, it
was this intro stringline countermelody, and I thought that was
the sickest part of the song. And I was like,
there's no way, what like, what do you mean cut that?
Like that? That is the song right there. And he's like,
(53:55):
it just doesn't happen ever again, like and I'm like, oh,
you know, like and I'm like, fine, we'll just let's
try it. Let's try it, and like that little voice
in my head coming up being like this is a
mistake working with someone else, like I hate this, no, no, no,
But it was really good for me to kind of
just see that happen, like, oh, you know, the thing
(54:17):
that you think is absolutely right sometimes isn't or that like.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah, you know to your point about there's no expertise,
like yeah, we can't even be experts about ourselves and
what we you know, it's hard to be objective about
ourselves to anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah, to be objective, and I always want to just
do it. It was a good reminder do it takes
to serve the song, and like, let's just at least
try it. And I needed that like an outside brain
to just show it to me in a different lay.
So bed a really good time.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
I mean it's interesting that on this project you both
want learned how you can work with a producer, but
also like you like reified your own sort of abilities
as a producer too, Like you kind of moving forward,
do you think you want to self produce again or
do you want to work with someone else again, or there's.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
A sense of like relief and like I was saying,
I wanted to just go back to me for this
next project and see what comes out of that. I'm
really excited to. Like, yeah, I think that that experience
with Rob was super affirming. I'm like, I feel like
I'm I'm a strong producer, Like I know what I want,
and I think that's the most important thing, is like
knowing essentially what you want and acting on it, Like
(55:28):
because you could sit there all day with there's so
many other versions and options, but ultimately I do know
what I want strongly, So I think I'm motivated to
kind of just go there for the for what's next
like self produce it.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
So future for spelling is let this album come out,
do the tour, move to LA. It's self produced record.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Sounds about right.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, well glad you'll be around more.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Me too. It's been I don't know. LA is just everything.
It's like everything everyone says about it at the same time,
like the good and bad. It's all there and.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
That's very true.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yeah, most of the good mostly mostly kid.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Well, congratulations on the new album.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
It's really great and I'm looking forward to spending more
time with it.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
I appreciate it. Thanks justin. It's fun talking to you
and very official.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
An episode description, you'll find a link told playlist of
some of our favorite spelling songs. Be sure to check
out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see
all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow
us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can
follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
(56:50):
Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday.
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(57:13):
and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin. I'm excited today to share a conversation with my
friend Tia Cabral, also known as Spelling. I've known Spelling
since before she started making music a bit over a
decade ago, and I'll never forget when I first heard
some of the songs that became her sophomore album, The
Turning Wheel. It blew me away. For this friend, who
(00:37):
I've known for so long, to just be casually demoing
these beautiful songs with such a gorgeous voice, that was astonished.
Mind you, that album got a rare perfect ten rating
from Anthony Fantano. Her latest album, Portrait of My Heart,
sees Spelling taking yet another leap, pushing her avant garde
pop and even rock sensibilities to another level, adding new
(00:57):
dimensions to the mysticism and drama imbued in her music. Today,
Spelling opens up about her journey from teaching to touring,
what it means to build a sonic universe where every
detail is intentional, the early days of her musical journey,
when she was just getting started. This is broken record,
real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Spelling. We
(01:27):
should talk about the new album because there's a lot
more guitar, and then as the album progresses there gets
to be even more guitar. It's really cool, but it was,
but it was shocking. But maybe before we get to
talking about the guitar, just what was the genesis of
your new album?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The genesis, I mean, it's the same kind of approach
I always take, which is I'm just channeling my mood.
And I felt as though what I noticed after putting
out The Turning Wheel and touring a little bit and
just kind of that felt like this turning point in
my life where this is what I'm doing with my
(02:04):
life kind of a thing, whereas before it was I
was just you're meaning a lot, And I didn't imagine
my day to day being oriented around making music or
performing music really until post Turning Wheel. And there's a
lot of variables to that. I think I'm in my thirties,
Like I didn't really actually activate this craft until I
(02:30):
was in my like mid twenties, you know, So there
was this I felt like I'd already gone through this
evolution in my life where I felt like I know
who I am, you know, I have this sense of
self and confidence that's not rooted in being a musician,
so you know, going through that, putting out the album,
getting like an amazing amount of support for it and
(02:55):
growing my audience and all that, and I just was like, whoa,
I feel like I'm having this second sort of adolescence
in my life where I'm like once again being shaken up,
like having an identity crisis almost like who am I now?
And how does this change my life path? And all
of those things and just insecurities coming up I just
(03:16):
never thought I'd have to encounter again, Like I already
went through this as a teenager, just being like what
does it mean to like, you know, my image, my
relationships and my romantic connections, my friendships, all of that
started to kind of get re oriented around now pursuing
this thing like full full force and full heartedly, and
(03:39):
so Portrait of my Heart. A lot of those songs
are just like, yeah, stepping back into that sort of
adolescent space of like oh man, just like a restlessness,
sort of angst, a lot of grasping and questioning at
those sort of things that I just already thought I
had figured out.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Would you say it's the songs to you are more
questioning and reaching than your last record.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Just in a different scale. And I think prior to this,
I had a lot of comfort in my home space,
and I you know, had my like spiritual practices and routines,
like I meditate, I spend time in nature, and like
I was channeling from there, like my interests in like
you know, occult arts and magic and spirituality and cosmology
(04:31):
like all of that stuff. Like I spent a lot
of time reading and researching and just writing, and so
I would draw from that, like and I think things
were you know, there's songs on Turning Wheel that are
very much about like love and romance and connection, but
kind of more pointed in this like cosmic scale loves
in like universal love or you know, like love is
(04:53):
in cosmic love and that kind of analogy. But with
Portrait of my Heart, it's just it's more one to one.
It's more just like tea and real life situations and
like personal affairs and my own matters of a heart.
So yeah, it's a big shift. And now now that
I'm talking about it, it's like, oh, yeah, this is
(05:17):
about to come out, and this is like my life,
and it's it's a little weird. It's it's like way
more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Wow, it's interesting because I would have thought the opposite,
not that I mean both seem very sincere, but I
would have thought that that Turning Wheel was more directly
to do with your everyday life and sort of more
maybe more actually a portrait of your heart than this one.
But I guess that's why, and I guess that's why
(05:43):
you title this one.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's all InTru laced too, you know, like it's just
kind of what I was, what I was describing as
being on a different scale. And but yeah, they're both.
I think the through line is intimacy. I think that's
a big theme on all the things that I make,
is like intimacy with the self and with relationship or
(06:07):
connection to spirit and the those kinds of things are
carrying through since Pantheon of Me and to Portrait of
my Heart as well.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Since you talked about like having different practices, whether it's
meditation or just kind of communing with nature. Is music
another version of that for you?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah? Absolutely, it kind of feels like for me it
was the big piece of like, Oh, I found where
I can really direct my purpose and feel like I
can direct my like particular gifts and talents in the
right way, and so music is that for me. And
(06:48):
it's kind of like my big take on spirituality in
general is just what can you do to you know,
elevate your like best abilities and you know, make an impact.
I struggle with connecting to people, even though I want to,
(07:08):
and I yeah, and I think that music kind of
like always helps me to bridge that. Like it's the
thing that connects me to all, like all let my
relationships and friendships, even my family.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Like how does that play out in your life? How
does that look in your life?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I mean it's really like it's really simple just sending
songs back and forth with friends. It feels like I
can know you so well just by that, you know.
And my dad and I our relationship is really been
kind of glued together through music, and you know, he'll
send me YouTube videos back and forth throughout the week.
That's kind of like how we mostly communicate is like
(07:43):
through songs. And I don't know, I think like knowing
what someone loves or what speaks to them is so
special and it like just access to something you couldn't
really describe really with words ever. And that's how I
feel about just like speaking in general, too, Like I
have such a hard time like saying what I mean
and how I feel, but I can do it with music.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And when I first met you, you were a writer. Yeah,
it's how in my mind. Yeah, So when it comes
to writing, though, you're able to organize and your thoughts
and sort of clearly get out what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Better than like conversation for sure, But even then it's
not as immediate like music just is like something that's
just so immediate and it doesn't need like a translation
for me, like I just feel like I can just
act as a conduit. And yeah, I started off with writing.
You know, you saw me doing poetry workshops and stuff
(08:41):
like that, and that was what really launched me into
making music. From there, I was like, oh, poetry is
this other like vein of music where you can say
a lot with just a few things and have all
these multiple meanings and just a couple of words. And
so I was playing around with that and then got
a loot pedal and good, all right, I think I
(09:10):
cringed thinking about that chapter of my life. We can
we don't need people digging into that.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
But that was the first time I ever met you.
Do you remember, do you remember meeting.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah at a workshop.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Not at a workshop. We were on like telegraph and
and you were, I think, just leaving a workshop. And
I had walked from like downtown, but on foot on
I was hooking it just like I was like, okay
a bus. I was like waiting for a bus and
was taking forever, so I wanted to start walking and
a bus will eventually. I don't know how. I walked forever,
(09:47):
and then finally a bus came and you came up.
A couple of different other.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
People, Yeah, a couple of other poets, a couple of
the poets telegraph.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Casually a couple of the poets materialized and we rode
the bus together. And that was Remember that was for
something to me, like, yeah, we just came from this
you like like we were still over there this poetry.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, oh man, what a time. Yeah, it really felt
like serendipitous, the friends I made along that journey, like
being at E. C. Berkeley and yeah, really just like
romanticizing walking around Telegraph Avenue, just like you were doing
it my little journal.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, but never did you know. It's fun And like
you say, you feel now almost like you're reaching a
second adolescence it's like I can relate because I never
I feel younger in a way than I ever did,
because back then I felt like old. I felt like
or like I was like.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Like, like, do you have a timeless quality to you?
I feel like you're like you could jump back back
and forth and thank you.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'll accept that. I'd never considered that for myself, but
maybe that's the truth. But like that, I felt like
I was like running out of time. Like I don't
know how to explain that, but I felt I was like,
I remember when you picked up but then you were
about to say you started picking up some loop pedals.
If I remember were you getting music equipment? And I
remember like looking at you and just being like are
we too old for this?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Ship? I remember this conversation I feel like we were
talking about. I was like, I think I'm gonna start
doing this.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And you're like, I'm about to learn. Like you got
like a keep, you were so excited you got a keyboard,
and like all the time, I'm like like, and I
think you know somewhere, I think you know I probably
would have loved and have done the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
The time you're trying to take me down, aren't we aren't.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
We I just want to bring down with me, like
I think we're like too old for this ship, Like
what are you afterwards?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Like let me see if I can what I can. Yeah,
but it blew me.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Away because like it's like you you started doing that
and then like pretty quickly the music you were making
was psycho.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I mean, I'm glad that it was quick because I
didn't have time to waste, you know, like if it
was sorted out within the next few years, then what No.
I mean, I think I've always had the mentality of
feeling like a late bloomer, feeling like my pace is
like a little bit behind everybody else. So good thing.
I wasn't in that frame of mind where I want
(12:15):
I wasn't running, you know. I was like this is
this is happening, and I'm doing it and yeah, there
there wasn't a lot of questioning right at that point
in my life. Now there is. Now there's a lot
more of like what's to come and what's next? And
I you don't I have to actively work to like
(12:36):
cast those thoughts away. But yeah, I'm curious, why do
you feel like you're you feel like younger than you
have previously, you feel like it's about sort of having
some security that.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
That's a good question. I don't know. I think it's
something to do with I don't know that that feeling
of running out of time has gone away, Like I
feel like I.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Have coasting, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
No, I don't know about coasting as much as I
hope I'm not gonna be maybe I hope not, though, No,
but I just feel like I have more time than that,
which is so I like the complete opposite feeling was
whereas then I felt like there was not there was
no time and I was late, and you know, like
now I'm like, oh, there's.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Nothing trying to catch that bus.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I just trying to catch that bus exactly. But
but now, yeah, I guess maybe now I'm on the
bus and I'm like, yo, there's there's nothing but time.
And so it's just that it's just a feeling. I
don't know if it's even like a real thing.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I mean, I think that's a real that thing that
can manifest physically though, Like I feel like you can
pause or slow down time depending on your perspective and mentality.
It's like it stretches and it contracts and it condenses
like depending on all of those things. But like you're
time traveling different than I am and everybody else. It's
(13:56):
an interesting sensation. I feel like time is just like
rapidly going by so fast, Like I feel like I'm
constantly running out of time.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Totally switch physicians. So what change? What changed for you?
Because because you know, it's like, I don't know, I've
never like I don't even I hesitate to say that,
like you've clearly hit your stride because like I've always
thought of you as a person who was like top
tier at like whatever whatever you were doing, I always
feel like you were doing it well. So I feel
like you've kind of always been in your stride. So
(14:26):
I don't mean it that was competitive.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
They gotta at least give that impression even if I'm not.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, I believe I believe you are secretly competitive. But no,
but but it me. I mean, you've clearly like carved
out like a really nice space for yourself. So why
do you feel like now you're feeling.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I mean, I just it's more of like a sentimentality thing,
like I don't want it to go away, Like I
don't want the I want it to last longer. So
maybe it's actively thinking about that that can speed up things.
You know, it's I think there's this resistance is an
interesting principle where it's like, yeah, the more you are
(15:07):
resistant to something, the more push back against you. So
I think me being like I want to dwell in
this moment for as long as I can, and like
kind of like almost like feeling like mourning that this
time is gonna not last forever. That makes it go
by quicker. So it's just like you got to practice
I tried to remind myself to practice like more presence,
(15:30):
and you know, everything runs its course in certain ways,
and who knows, Like, I mean, this is a current
that I'm in right now, but there's so many other
creative like potentials for the future, and like I didn't
see this coming for myself, Like at that time when
we were talking about music, I was just like, I'm
just gonna get some keyboards and mess around. I didn't
(15:52):
see this as where I would be at all, So
who knows what's next in ten years?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah? Is this feeling where uh like, keep it keep
it alive comes from oh yeah a song?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. That track makes me anxious to
listen to. I enjoy it, but yeah, that's definitely the
quality in it is trying to just stay ahead and
outpace the maybe responsibilities and you know, inevitable endings. It's
(16:28):
kind of the the vibe on that one.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Do you remember Strumer sitting down to write that.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I remember that strangely a lot of times, the songs
that I end up making our versions of other songs
that people might never make the connection to. Like I
was listening to it's like an eighties Marvin Gaye album,
and there's the opening of it. The strings on it
(16:55):
are doing something really weird, and I kind of ripped
the stringline a little bit from this track and it
created this sense of like chaos. But in his version,
of course, it's like super dreamy and romantic and like lush,
and I'm like, I'm gonna kind of borrow this like
chord change and put it in this context and it's
(17:16):
gonna sound super hectic.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Was it the sexual Healing album?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
No, it's Dream of a Lifetime, So it's it's it's madness.
You know that one, And I don't know that you
should listen to it. And now I'm wondering if you related.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
At all, probably not because I didn't hear any Marven
on this, but I mean that's kind of the cool
That's why that's a that's a really cool approach to
making something because it's like it's kind of like it's
like sampling in a way, like it's like taking something
from something that you really like and it's turning it
making it work for you, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, and the song, like the lyrics, it's like he's
saying it's called it's madness, so he's kind of dealing
with I think, similar ideas with it where it's like
time running out and like sort of like living in
a cyclone in your mind, and he's he's like, oh
with is Mama, And he's like it's an interesting and
(18:11):
weird song where it's like super dreamy and beautiful, but
then the lyrics are kind of dark and yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well Marvin's Casey really was running out of time too,
which is the eerie thing. Yeah, but you know, like
I wonder like with him, you know you could you
can go to also like a like a like a
guy like Tupac obviously to right, he's always like rapping
about his own death and it's like prophetic yeah, like
was it prophetic or did you make it real? You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
So I just wonder Jeff Buckley too, But I've been
spending a lot of time listening to Grace. That was
a sort of entry point into like how am I
going to shape the sounds on Portrait of My Heart too,
and thinking about his like it kind of sounds like
sometimes when he's singing, he can censor, like perceive running
(19:06):
out of time, and there's that like almost desperate to
his voice that makes it so good.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, I wonder though, like how much of that is
is like perceiving truth or reality or how much of
that is just like people reading signals wrong or just
you know, like I don't know, like.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, or sabotage self sabotage, sabotage you know, like yeah, yeah,
it's interesting. It's kind of like I always reference that
like meme of the cartoons on the bus, like ones
looking at the window all happy looking and the other
one's like sad, and it's like it'll stay the same thing,
Like I just saw it yesterday and it's like I
(19:49):
don't understand David Lynch And it's like someone looking at
the window looking all happy and then the sad person's
like I don't understand David Lynch. It's like it's just
like yeah, you know, like I'm running out of time,
like I could be really depressed about that, or I'm
running out of time like you know, things are just
gonna happen, and you can like it can be to
(20:09):
your empowerment to see it that way. Sure, I guess
I don't, Like I don't know next topic.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I don't know if I can find the framing of
that to be a I mean, it might be maybe
that's my limited perspective. That might be my you know,
my hang up. I'm not sure, but I know what
that feeling is, and you know, I just so much
preferred not to be it's a because it can be
(20:42):
limiting in its own way, you know, Like like again
like where you were when you started this music thing
is like certainly you were not in that space and
that allowed you to, you know, just be more improvisational,
like I want to get this keyboard and mess around
and then you know, you just never know when you're
(21:04):
improvising in life like what that can lead to, you know,
And that's a living more in that space to me,
even though like you know, you listen to more and
that guy he's just he's so tortured and the music
is so beautiful, but I just prefer it just seems
like life is better when you're when when when you're
(21:25):
allowing yourself the lee way to you know, try things
and not feel like I have to do this because
there's not you know, I don't enough time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I got to do this now, I know, I know,
and I want. I think going forward a lot of
conversations and like some album interviews I've been doing, the
more I talk about the like journey and the origins
of this project and where it's headed, I feel so
like I have to continue to nourish the things that
(21:57):
feed that and feel that because it's gotten me to
this place. And the more I try to like play
by the book or follow them the sort of industry standard,
it's gonna strip away more than it's going to add.
And I don't necessarily know what that will look like yet,
(22:17):
but I think it's something that's just actively on my
mind and going to start, you know, looking for more
opportunities to recreate kind of like the improvisational space you're describing,
where it's like you're not I'm not feeling pressured to
or obligated to do things a certain way and with
(22:40):
the portrait of my heart, and I had to see
it through. It was what was calling to me. And
I'm really happy with how it all came together. And
but there is this I can feel my intuition being
like what's next is stripping back again and kind of
going back into like a solo approach and getting messier
(23:01):
with my stuff because I've gained a lot of technical
skill and like you know, spent that put the work
in on, Like I know how to make the things
I want and they can somewhat match what ideas I have.
I didn't have that when I was working on Pantheon.
I was just like fruit Loop, Studio free Edition, like Audacity,
(23:22):
just like record. I don't know how to fix that.
So it's just going to be that way. And then
you know, like I don't know what I was doing
at all, so.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
But you didn't know, and but like you, but like,
but it's not true, Like you you managed to make
something that felt right to you at least I think
or felt right to other people. I mean, that's a
that's a great project. But you've definitely gained like the
ability to maybe be more precise.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, maybe be more precise, and yeah, just know more
how to use like do things more efficiently because I
spent a little like it took a long time to
make things that I could do a lot quicker now.
But yeah, I look forward to that. I want to
just I have another set of songs that I was
(24:10):
working on kind of alongside Portrait of My Heart and
decided to just go with the like funnel those and
to the like a little more pop sensibility album. But
then the other stuff is like a lot more lo
fi and just more like the Witchy Spelling origin stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
We'll be back with more from Spelling after this break.
Spelling as the uh you know the name you release
stuff under, is that is that witchy in origin?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's yeah, somewhat, yeah, sort of in the more of
like it was funny to me as a name. I
liked that the word itself kind of made me think
of like a creature and I would like imagine myself
as this little like elevin creature name spelling, and but yeah,
just it was just a reference to words, and like
(25:07):
words is magic and cantation, and I think, yeah, the
early stuff I was making like Creola Church. It was
like a lot of repetition, just a lot of like
repeating words over and over until it felt like it's
turning into some sort of hypnotic state. And that's where
that comes from.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
In this Is there any of that in your mind
in the on the new project, in the new album, Like,
is that still a part of what you're doing or somewhat?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I mean, I think I'm always the biggest things I'm
always inspired by are usually like books and literature, poetry,
and so those influencers are always there. Even when I'm
describing like oh, these are like more just like matters
of the heart and like situational like love stories and
(25:58):
things like that, It's still still very much being drawn
from like a lot of like research and interests and
that kind of stuff. And Portrait in My Heart was
the first song that kind of opened up the floodgates
for what was to come after with the rest of
the album.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And that was the first song you wrote.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
That was the first song I wrote. Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
The line thea like that came to me on the
when I was on the piano, and I remember it
sounding kind of like a halftime thing likea.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Like that, I'm very like slow, and I was like
this is cool, Like this is giving. I don't know
what this is giving, but it's got something. And then
I was frustrated with like I felt like it needed
to be more aggressive and I felt fresh, Like I
was like, I don't want to make another like long, slow,
(26:59):
dramatic song like I want to. I just want to
switch it up. So then I started messing around with
the drum machine and when I had that like like that,
and then I changed the way that the line came through,
and then Yeah, the vibe of that whole track on
(27:20):
my mind at the time was like what's next and
what's to come? Like feeling like I'm running out of
time all those things, and like feeling a lot of
apprehension and self doubt as far as like god, being
an artist, you're just like constantly thinking about yourself, like
this kind of sucks, Like I'm tired of this, Like
(27:41):
I'm tired of hearing my own boys, I'm tired of
what I have to do next, And I just feeling
like it's so selfish to be my so self absorbed,
you know, with but that's what it takes to make
the thing. So yeah, the song is kind of about
that and just feeling like, you know, you're pursuing your
pursuing your idea to this extreme where you're starting to
(28:04):
like lose track of reality, lose track of what's important
to you and your life, and things really just start
to fade away, and you like live in a delusion,
and a lot of times, like to make the best things,
you gotta like live in the delusion. And so I
was fully living in that, and the lyrics came through
(28:24):
like that, like lost, shattered in the dark, stranger in
my head. It's like grappling with like the artist self
and creating a kind of like a prison of your
own imagination. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I haven't really thought about it that way, but it's
like one of the great ironies of being an artist,
I guess is you're constantly I guess it's by nature
a bits it is a bit selfish, or maybe there's
another way of thinking about it, but that definitely is
you know, yeah it.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I mean it's a beautiful part of it too, and
that's that's the song is kind of just questioning all
these things, and I think the spiritual portion that comes
in is like this feeling or sensation sometimes that I have.
It's like my relationship with God and feeling like God
is the ultimate artist, and like has you know, placed
certain like circumstances or situations for each individual life and
(29:21):
like what you push back or what you contribute towards
it versus what you don't how much of that is
like your responsibility and like almost even like as being
as an artist, are you like challenging against like your
nature and what God intended you to do? So that
that's kind of like I.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Mean, so you feel like maybe God was not intending
for you to be an.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Artist, yeah, or maybe that your those like your gifts
or abilities could be better placed through other things instead
of this, Like was.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It teaching that was the other thing?
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Could you another thing?
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I could see another life path where that was like
where I like put my efforts and my gifts towards
or I don't know, like being a mother or being
like you know, these other roles or yeah, these other
roles in life that like I haven't necessarily chosen or
hasn't haven't happened. So that was the crisis of that song.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, I don't know, like choosing Yeah, I don't know,
just as like a parent now three times over. I
don't know, I don't think I've ever chose.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You were chosen.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, it was that was the other way I was chosen. So,
you know, I'm just sure when it's funny, we always
think about that as a good you know, when I
talk to other people, like, I don't know if I
want to, I don't know if it's like so much
up to you, you know, I don't know it's so
much up to any of us, you know. So you know,
but it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean, well, it's not that I see it that way.
It's just that kind of like those curiosities coming up,
you know. And yeah, I encountered some like weird poem
that was talking about an artist as like a thief
or like a sort of like a con artist, like
you know, like portray reality in a way that it's
(31:10):
not and like taking your money for it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
And it's it's just like a weird, funny, interesting concept
to me, right where it's like an artist kind of
demands a lot from you they can, and there's this
of like narcissism involved, and it's like their their job
is to like create a reality that's not reality. And
like sell you on it.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
This is a that's a very Bay area. Yeah, person,
I'm living down here in l A. And it's like
normal than me. Take the money and run.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I know. That's why I need to move down here.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, but no, but it's not like it's not a
it's not a wrong interpretation, but you know, or that
certainly can seem true.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
What other stuff were you reading or watching or listening
to around this?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Hmm? I did a lot less of that. I mean
also for Portrait of My Heart. I had seen that
movie What Dreams Bake and that also like inspired with
Robin Williams and Cuba getting juniors in it, and he's
the angel if I ever saw it, he did it.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I remember the movie It's Freaky.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
That also lended into a lot of the like imagery
in that song, because it's like he his wife passes
away and he's trying to like rescue her from health
and he goes on this whole odyssey and uh, the
way she was a painter in the movie and so
like her re out, like her Heaven I think is
like all like watercolor painting, and it's like really beautiful.
(32:42):
She moves through it and it's like the trees are
all rippling with paint and stuff, and so that that
was the I had seen it a long time ago
and always was kind of freaked out by it by
it and it's a really intense movie, but it's also
so beautiful, and I had watched it again and that
kind of helped me with that song Portrait of My
Heart and just like kind of like that theme in
(33:02):
general of just like painting and yeah, and yeah, other
books like mount Anlo that's a song based off that,
And that's a book that I really enjoyed. I found
it at.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Wait, it's a book, Mountain, not analog. I didn't know
there was a book. Yeah, I loved that title.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, I was just gonna call it an analog. But
I'm glad I threw I kept the Mountain so anyone
can like look it up and hopefully read it. It's
I found it. There's this bookstore and Silverlate called Stories.
One of the times I was out here, it was
up on the shelf for like staff picks, and I
was like, oh, it's like inspired Alejandro Jodrowski's Holy Mountain,
(33:45):
and so he was inspired by that book to make that.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Movie and analog. Yeah, no way, well.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful. It's just like it's like
an adventure story about a group of mountaineers that try
to scale this mythic mountain that's supposed to exist somewhere,
but it's like hidden from from view and you can
only you know, find it if you're coming with like
(34:13):
a pure heart and intentions. And there's just like weird
mystical concepts in it that I really latched onto and
it tried to infuse in the song. And you know,
they're like sailing towards this mountain, so I'm sort of
trying to create that. Like there's like this noise starts
and like grows all the way up till the end
(34:35):
of the song. It'supposed to sound like waves. Tried to
like set the scene that way.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, good music can be so dense sometimes in like
really cool ways, Like like I don't mean that dense,
maybe lush is the word, but do things tend to
start more simply and then did they come to you
sort of like with almost pre arranged in a sense
of like you kind of know all the different kinds
(35:00):
of sounds you want in this thing.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I think that's that's more the case like I usually have.
It's more about reeling back than like adding a bunch
more like That's never really been a big struggle with
me as far as like arranging or writing a song.
Was just like some people describe like they can't stop
or they keep adding stuff or don't know when to stop.
I feel like I always know when to stop, and
(35:24):
usually I'm kind of stripping things back. That's kind of
more the process and some more than others. Like I
think the most challenging track was Waterfall, where I played
around with so many different versions and like tempos and
nothing felt quite right and we landed somewhere that I'm
happy with. That's my favorite song on the album, as
(35:44):
long as it's capturing the core in a really authentic
way that I'm happy and I kind of feel like
the ornamentation of things can kind of be interchangeable.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
What makes Waterfall your favorite song?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
I think because it was such a puzzle to hack
and like figure out that it was just so satisfying
once it really clicked, because I was kind of like, damn,
am I going to compromise and just kind of put
this out even though it doesn't feel one hundred percent right,
and I really didn't want to do that. And then
at the last minute it kind of fell together. And
I was in Athens, Georgia mixing the album with Yeah,
(36:23):
like a couple days left, and I still didn't have
the lyrics really figured out. I was like, well, mix
the song last and like hopefully something comes together. And
I was driving home and it's like the like the
like country South darkness that's like ooh, like it's just
you feel it and your bones kind of a thing.
(36:43):
And I was driving and listening to the demo and
like started to get that like shivery feeling where it's
like ooh, I feel like kind of scared but like
also like dangerous right now. And I felt like this
rush of like I don't know, just like a flash
of inspiration and helped me figure out the lyrics on that.
(37:04):
But it was amazing. There's always there's always a story
like that, like last minute some things like he had
to get to this point to finally be handed that.
That's how I feel about that track, So it's a favorite.
And also just the lyrics are super special to me.
It's about losing somebody and like I lost a friend
(37:25):
of mine, David who also inspired me to start making music,
and so I had him in mind and was like
thinking about him through this process and like kind of
being like my guiding angel through this whole experience of
being an artist. Now, so the song is dedicated to
him and thinking about grief as like it's just change
(37:48):
as a form.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Of change, and yeah, yes, what what happened?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
He died tragically and he was hit by a unibus
and it was like he was only we were all
like in our early twenties twenty two at the time.
This was at the Telegraph house that we were all
living in, so he was one of my roommates. And
this is like a beautiful, flamboyant person who would just
(38:16):
like bust into my room all the time and be like,
let's go do stuff together. So I moved into his
room after he had passed, like later months later, and
that's when I started getting music equipment because I was
like I feel him. I could feel him in the room,
and I feel like he would want me to be
making stuff. Wow, Yeah, I wanted to, like I always
(38:38):
sing and like make things, but I didn't think my
voice was strong, Like it was something that I didn't
push it or try to like take it seriously. So yeah,
I was like, this is just another tool for me
when I started making music to like, you know, just
kind of like the like producer who also makes music
sort of thing where the voice is just being utilized
(39:00):
hopefully like as another instrument. But it wasn't something like
where I came in as like I'm a singer and
then you know, I feel a lot more confident in
my voice now it's grown on me. But yeah, moments
of songs like Alibi or certain songs, I'm just like
it feels like to me, like to me too much
me in there.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's too much like in this track like Analog, where
it's like I can kind of feel like I'm like
I'm just a part of the music more got it, Yeah,
part of the tapestry. And then in Alibi it's like
I'm gotta be like deliver in this this other way
where it's just a different sensation.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It is a pretty straight straight ahead song. You know
that feels new for you on the album, And I
was mentioning earlier like the abundance of guitar also feels
new for you. Yeah, how did that come together? Like
what when did you realize you were gonna that was
gonna be drive a lot of the sound.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I guess when Portrait clicked in the way that it did,
I was like, Okay, I'm going back in time. I'm
going back to this like sort of high school self.
What was I listening to then? What were the things
that fueled that attitude? And I needed to kind of
like get in my radio head bag, my like system
(40:21):
of a down and smashing pumpkins and all of the
like kind of nineties grunge rock stuff, And that just
made it sense to me, like, oh, I'm gonna it's
gonna be guitar based, and that'll be a sort of
like touchstone for the first time, because I think before
(40:42):
then I never like I didn't just made whatever and
like let the song demand what instruments to use. And
this time I'm like, I want to have a little
bit more of a centerpiece here. So rock Palette.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You forced the issue, We're gonna issue.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Sit on it.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, stay visits down what I don't even know who
played guitar on that?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
No, my band, So in my band right now, Wyatt
plays guitar. He played all the songs on Portrait, and
we had a couple of guests like on Alibi, Pat
from Turnstile like also played on that and Braxton from Zulu.
So yeah, but Whyatt held down and like helped me
like arrange and write a lot of this stuff. And
(41:28):
then Julio it's our bass player. He's a jazz player.
He's like you know his style. He's like a music addict.
He can't stop playing music, you know, like every day
he has a gig. And he always mixed the live
performances really dynamic. And I'll be like, Okay, we have
our set lists. This is what we're gonna do every night,
(41:49):
you know, because it feels good to kind of just
like lock in and get better at the same thing.
And he'll be like, this is boring. We gotta do
like I'm gonna do something different every night, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Like, so who's on Satisfaction? Is that? Why?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
That gets pretty hardcore? What did that call him at
the end? Or were you like we're gonna for sure
just gonna like funny, did you know from the jump
that you were going to song would end up like yeah,
turn that into like a slayer.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I'm trying to remember where that song even when I
wrote that one. I think it was kind of like
having this more like wicked synth flare to it at first,
Like I remember making that the guitar line that's like
no no, no, no no no, and it kind of
had more of like a Queen of Wands sort of
(42:43):
like prog synth rock feeling to it. Like I started
to get real theatrical with like all the synth work
and stuff, and I'm like, what would it sound like
it was stripped down and just like a much more
brutal and just guitar instead of all this like chaotic
synth stuff happening.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Like the guitar was down bad for a while. Yeah,
like it could use a renaissance, like I like having music,
so I was, but it's just it was such a
wild that wasn't a flavor I was used to from
your song.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I know, yeah, I know. I mean I think about
some Pantheon stuff and like I would have the impulse
to do kind of what I'm doing on Satisfaction or
with like other heavier tracks, but it's like I just
didn't have the means too, like real fun. I tried
to kind of go there and make this like sort
of like doom metal guitar, but with the synth. So
(43:42):
I would just like emulate what I wanted to sound
like on on the gino And what did it lived
like that I was saying, I feel like the got
to channel some of those like the first instances of
music that felt like they were different than what I
was like growing up listening to, Like my mom listened
(44:03):
to a lot of neo soul and R and B
and all that stuff really still comes through too, like
in the nineties, like Mary J. Blige, like she's one
of the people who taught me how to sing, and
Randy and Monica and Tony and like.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
You was like singing other records.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah yeah, and then you know, so that was the
music I was like raised on and like in my
household and like but then I think some of the
like alt rock stuff I got into, like AFI and
like pop punk stuff.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
That was your dad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
No, it was like me in like a suburb and
like going to Borders Bookstore and being like raised by
Borders Bookstore and like you know that I'm speaking to
kind of like oh, hearing something else and feeling like
what is this like for hearing like system of a
down for the first time and being like, oh, what
(44:53):
is this feeling happening right now? Like I didn't know
I had like these sort of sensations inside, but it's
speaking to something that was there. And yeah, so Portrait
of my Heart kind of like drawing from that alt
rock palette that kind of felt like it kind of
fueled this new fascination and interests in like this is
(45:14):
my music too, Like this this is stuff that I
really connect with.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And like, you play and you played some shows with Turnstile,
didn't you?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I did? Yeah, yeah that's I saw Brendan Gates go
on some podcast maybe and say how he loves Little
Deer and I was like what it made me so happy?
And then I think I reached out like DM tim
(45:41):
or something was like no way, Like that's so cool
that you even listened to Spelling asked us to play
some shows. We played open for them in Vegas and
like Tucson, I think, no, Yeah, it was. It was
so interesting to stand up there in front of their
crowd in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Vegas.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, there was a lot of confusion. Yeah, there's a
lot of like puzzled looks and then kind of like
saw some people converted, like.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
The best kinds of shows of I love those, man.
I love when it's just not like the perfect match
for the audience, you know, like that's the most fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
I thrive on that too, Like I like seeing the
sort of perplexed crowd and then some heads nodding and
be like I don't know, okay, Yeah, it was a
lot of fun. And I love his voice like a
(46:45):
portrait of my heart. We're working on doing a remix
with him, so like featuring him on one of the tracks.
It's just gonna be really great.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
After this break, we'll be back with the rest of
my conversation with Spelling. Yeah, you're doing a whole remix
like release of that album, but it's not gonna come.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, just be a few tracks, and like Simon and
I are working on those like remixed versions. And the
last two years of just put more effort into connecting
with other artists like that I really like like Brendan,
and it to me like that's the biggest like affirmation
along the way, like, oh, these artists I really love,
(47:28):
like they love Spelling, and what can I like gain
from that as far as just like creative collaboration and
seeing what fusion will come from, because I think it's
pretty all over the spectrum. Like the people who are
interested in Spelling isn't like they aren't coming from this,
Like I'm interested in the music because I like hardcore music,
or I like, you know, this style of music, or
(47:51):
it's just all over the map.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Like because I don't know if there's like I don't
know if you could do an algorithmic like if you
listen to Spelling, you would also like like it's nothing
like father to your style.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
You know, there's like sometimes I've like heard my music
pop up on things I wouldn't expect it to, like algorithmically,
But then I'm like, oh, I do see the crossover there,
Like what, I'm a big fan of Cibo Matto and
I was listening to their album that it sort of
shuffling other stuff, and then one of my old songs
(48:27):
was like a jump scare. I was like, what, why
does this sound so familiar? It was Dirty Desert Dreams
from Mazy Fly, and I was like, why is this
playing right now? Yeah? That just sort of I guess
like synth music.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, I guess, but I don't know. I mean, yeah, yeah,
you definitely have a unique style. Yeah, an amalgamation a lot.
There's a lot going on in there. This is the
remix I guess, or they just like duets or like
wait what are the Yeah? How much are you changing
the songs?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I want to change them more like Simon and I.
He's fantastic also, like we have great chemistry. He worked
on the track sometimes on That's Just My Bloody Valentine
cover on Portrait of My Heart, and he also did
Waterfall and Drain, so he helped me just co produce
those and then I was like, oh man, this was
so cool. And I didn't really connect with him until
(49:27):
towards the tail end of the whole process, and I
was like, I wish we would have connected way earlier.
But it's cool. And now I'm like, yeah, let's definitely
do the remixes together. So so far we're working on three.
There's I kind of wanted to like keep this a
surprise though, like who the features are.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Gotta gotta gotta got it. He worked with the Rabbi
Zell on the project. Who you know, it's done a
lot of good work for us and like a bunch
of other people, how was that?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It was great? You know, I feel like that was
my first experience working with the producer. Everything has been
self produced before, so there's there was definitely like a
sort of an internal struggle at the concept at first,
and I knew it would really it would really benefit
(50:16):
me and help me grow just to get that opportunity.
So when in and I feel like fifty to fifty,
like you don't know if you're gonna vibe with someone
then you can even if you like get along, and
like it's like, how is that going to translate when
it comes to like these creative decisions? And so I've
come a long way as a person as far as
(50:37):
like being able to even be in that scenario and
context like what you so would probably just give me
so much dread and anxiety. But he's the loss of control,
the loss of control and also just having to make
decisions with someone, you know, because I think when I'm
working on my own and solo capacity, which I usually
(50:57):
do producing, it's like I can take as much time
as I need and like, you know, like there isn't
this need to communicate actively, like it's just an internal communication.
So I was like still a little nervous, but he's great,
Like he's made everything feel so casual. I don't know
what I was expecting, but yeah, he just had this
(51:19):
confidence and like he remember him being like he showed
me what he was sort of starting out with and
he's like and I was already really digging it, and
he's like, yeah, don't worry, You're gonna leave here with
something you love. Like just like I was like, okay, confidence,
I promise, I guarantee it. No, So he just had
(51:41):
like a really good like, Oh he's great.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Like he knows how to like, you know, he knows.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
What he's doing, he knows what he's doing, and he
had I like that sense of assurance because I, you know,
I don't want to be in the room with someone
that's like m you know, like uh, like I want
like do what you do best and like work from that.
And like that felt really comforting just to like things
didn't feel awkward at all. And also it was just
awesome to see that was my kind of my all
(52:08):
only one of few experiences seeing someone just like operate
as a producer too, and I'm like, oh, he's doing
these things or whatever, and like I do a lot
of this stuff too, you know, Like it was just
like affirming to be like, oh, there wasn't a blueprint.
There's so much experimentation. There's so much just like fucking
around with this like tape reel and still the like
(52:29):
sensations of imposter syndrome come up or it's like what
I do, is that good enough? Or is it like
refined enough or whatever? And techniques and it's like we
all don't know what we're doing in some capacity, like
the idea of expertise is so relative, and especially in art. Yeah,
but yeah, he's he's brilliant and like really helped me
(52:51):
to like stand on ideas I had and be like no,
like try it, like actually do it, and would follows through.
And we came up with some just like some really
fun stuff on Portrait, particularly like we were like strumming
this trying to get real like pet sounds with it,
like i'ming the piano keys and like doing all these
(53:12):
effects on it and just adding subtle little like stuff
that made a big difference. And I came in with
this version of the song that was like once again
like an eight. It was like eight minutes long, and
he's like, this is cool, but cut this, cut like
cut it in half.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Was there like other sections or the preamble.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
I always do this too, And he's like, it's just
my pop mind, just kind of saying like this doesn't
happen again anywhere else in the song. I'm like, it
was this intro stringline countermelody, and I thought that was
the sickest part of the song. And I was like,
there's no way, what like, what do you mean cut that?
Like that? That is the song right there. And he's like,
(53:55):
it just doesn't happen ever again, like and I'm like, oh,
you know, like and I'm like, fine, we'll just let's
try it. Let's try it, and like that little voice
in my head coming up being like this is a
mistake working with someone else, like I hate this, no, no, no,
But it was really good for me to kind of
just see that happen, like, oh, you know, the thing
(54:17):
that you think is absolutely right sometimes isn't or that like.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah, you know to your point about there's no expertise,
like yeah, we can't even be experts about ourselves and
what we you know, it's hard to be objective about
ourselves to anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah, to be objective, and I always want to just
do it. It was a good reminder do it takes
to serve the song, and like, let's just at least
try it. And I needed that like an outside brain
to just show it to me in a different lay.
So bed a really good time.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
I mean it's interesting that on this project you both
want learned how you can work with a producer, but
also like you like reified your own sort of abilities
as a producer too, Like you kind of moving forward,
do you think you want to self produce again or
do you want to work with someone else again, or there's.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
A sense of like relief and like I was saying,
I wanted to just go back to me for this
next project and see what comes out of that. I'm
really excited to. Like, yeah, I think that that experience
with Rob was super affirming. I'm like, I feel like
I'm I'm a strong producer, Like I know what I want,
and I think that's the most important thing, is like
knowing essentially what you want and acting on it, Like
(55:28):
because you could sit there all day with there's so
many other versions and options, but ultimately I do know
what I want strongly, So I think I'm motivated to
kind of just go there for the for what's next
like self produce it.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
So future for spelling is let this album come out,
do the tour, move to LA. It's self produced record.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Sounds about right.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, well glad you'll be around more.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Me too. It's been I don't know. LA is just everything.
It's like everything everyone says about it at the same time,
like the good and bad. It's all there and.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
That's very true.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yeah, most of the good mostly mostly kid.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Well, congratulations on the new album.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
It's really great and I'm looking forward to spending more
time with it.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
I appreciate it. Thanks justin. It's fun talking to you
and very official.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
An episode description, you'll find a link told playlist of
some of our favorite spelling songs. Be sure to check
out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see
all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow
us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can
follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
(56:50):
Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday.
Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers
bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine
a month. Look for pushing and Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
(57:13):
and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!