December 28, 2022 • 36 mins
A listener in his eighties wants to know if there’s an expiration date on his sex life, and how to reconnect in the bedroom with his wife. Luckily, Emily is writing a new book about sex in long-term relationships. She delves deep into what the research reveals about couples who sustain a strong sexual connection over many years. Plus, she shares practical, science-backed sex advice on aging and navigating your changing body.
If you have a question for Emily, call the Come As You Are hotline at (646) 397-8557 or send a voice memo to emily@pushkin.fm. Tell us your pronouns and pseudonym (pick a name, any name!) Your question might be answered on the show.
Books mentioned by Emily:
“Magnificent Sex” by Dr. Peggy Kleinplatz
“Black Girls Guide to Surviving Menopause” by Omisade Burney-Scott
“What Fresh Hell Is This?” by Heather Corinna
“Why Good Sex Matters” by Nan Wise
”Couples Sexuality After 60” by Barry and Emily M
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Hi, Emilia, and I'm going I have a question
for you man not alive. She's said it, and I'm
eight and I like sex and she does not. I
(00:37):
have a good friend in his eighties, and honestly, he's
maybe the most sexual person I know. But it is
true that what sexual looks like for him in his
eighties is different from how he looked earlier in his life.
But I think it's different in ways you might not expect.
I'm Emilinagaski and this is the Come as you Are
(01:01):
podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In
this episode, we're going to be talking about out sex
in long term relationships. I'm writing my next book on this,
so it is always on my mind. Plus I have
come across so much interesting research. So here's my producer,
(01:21):
mo Hi mo Hi, Emilie. We've had such a great
season and I can't believe it's already coming to an end.
I feel like these episodes have been an updated like
Sex Said, what a one course for everyone like me
who didn't get the Sex said they deserved absolutely, and
people could listen to it while they were folding laundry
(01:44):
or commuting to work. Among the many reasons. I love podcasts. Yes,
now this question today, Okay. I immediately thought that we
needed to answer this on the show because I know
you're writing a book about sex in long term relationships. Yeah,
there are so many stereotypes too, and so many questions
(02:04):
about sex and aging. The New York Times this year
did a story on sex and aging and there were
like some photographs of people in situations and on Instagram.
The comments half of them were like, this is so
great for them, and the other half were like, uh,
get this off my feed sterilize my eyeballs. So I
love addressing a topic that carries this kind of taboo,
(02:25):
even though it's a topic that a lot of us
would love to live long enough to have it apply
to us. Totally. Lucky him that he is thinking about
this and wanting to improve his sex life at eighty.
That is incredible. So why did you choose the topic
of sex and long term relationships for your next book?
It's based on a true story. Tell me. It took
(02:48):
me about a year and a half to write Come
as You Are, which is a book that is all
about the science of women's sexual well being. So I
was thinking and writing and reading about sex all day,
every day, And ironically, after all that time thinking about sex,
I had zero interest in actually having any sex. As
(03:09):
you know, I am married to somebody, and that's somebody
because of me. Went months with nothing from me, and
then the book was published, and I traveled all over
the country talking to anyone who would listen about the
science of sex. And when I got back from those trips,
i'd be so tired that we'd try to get in
bed together and I would just cry and fall asleep.
(03:33):
So there were more months of nothing right, and I
missed the sex. I missed my partner, and I missed
the part of myself that plays in the erotic realm.
Like I have always imagined myself having an erotic connection
that develops and grows with a certain special someone far
into our old age. I want us to be giggling
(03:56):
and licking and snuggling until we're ninety five, if we're
lucky enough to live that long. So here I was
sixty years ahead of schedule already losing that, and I
was was pretty shocking. But I had spent all that
time reading a lot of science about sexuality, so there
were some things I knew about sex and a long
(04:18):
term relationship that helped us find our way back to
each other. But it wasn't stuff I was finding in
other books. So this new book is the book that
I wanted to read in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. It's
the science that helped us stay connected even through twenty
sixteen and twenty seventeen. And then oh gosh, here's a
(04:40):
global pandemic. Right, So this is the science I couldn't
find another books, but that I knew because I was
reading the science and because I was putting it to
work in my own relationship. It seems like you are
perfectly equipped to answer today's question. So are you ready
to hear the whole thing? So ready? My name is
(05:03):
archer Man. Not alive, she said in it five and
I and I'll like shick and she does not. I
take all natural to help me to get my potential.
So why is it she don't like to have relations
with me when we can? Are you supposed to have
(05:28):
sex when you get that old? What I'm saying if
you want it, I do want it. I love to
have it, and so I just want to nip. There's
sometimes a rule on that. So that's all I asked
him by now and have a good day. I love
(05:49):
Arthur so much. On a certain level, it's really heartbreaking
to hear like the loneliness and isolation. Why doesn't my
wife like having sex with me? And also I feel
really optimistic and hopeful about it, because if he's willing
to ask the question out loud, that suggests to me
(06:09):
that they might be able to answer the question together.
You were saying that you have been researching and reading
all about on long term sexual relationships. Can you explain
to us what science that we might need to know
in order to answer this question. Yes, I would love
nothing more. It's one of my favorite things to talk about,
(06:30):
so to begin with, of course, there are no rules.
That's what Arthur is asking, and if he has listened
to the rest of the series, he will know that
by now. And I would point out that Arthur doesn't
actually tell us how long he and his wife have
been together. Maybe they have been together for fifty years,
or maybe they just met and got married five or
ten years ago or less. We don't know. I was
(06:50):
wondering before we get too far into this answer, like,
how do you define a long term relationship? Oh, that's
a really great question. Yeah, what counts is long term.
For me, it's any relationship that has lasted long enough
for things to change. So you look back and you're like, wow,
things have really changed since we first got together, and
maybe that's three months, or maybe it's ten years. I
(07:14):
love that definition because I have been with my girlfriend
for three years, but we've got together in twenty nineteen,
and it feels like we are so close. And you know,
this is explaining to me the phenomenon of the pandemic
couple basically having a really intense connection. Yeah, it's a
phenomenon in social psychology that people who have to solve
(07:36):
a problem that they can only solve by solving it
together naturally bond in a really deep way. But regardless
of how long people have been together, regardless of their
age or their health status, regardless of their genders or
any other characteristic of their identities or relationship structure. What
the research shows me is that couples who sustain a
(07:59):
strong sexual connection over many years have two things in common. First,
they are friends who trust and admire each other, and second,
they prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their
relationship and they're shared lives, that they close the door
(08:20):
on all the other things they could be doing, right,
like they maybe they've got kids to raise, or work
to go to, or letters to their representatives to write,
other friends or in family to spend time with. Maybe
they want to sleep. God forbid, we are busy, right,
But these folks who sustain a strong sexual connection over
the long term stop everything else and just turn toward
(08:44):
each other's erotic selves. And my question is, why would
anyone do that? Why stop all the other really important
things in our lives and do this, let's face it,
pretty silly thing that humans do. So I have actually
(09:05):
asked people what is it that you like when you
like sex? And what is it that you want when
you want sex with a partner? And the first thing
people say is connection. We want and like and long
for the vulnerability and authenticity and co presence with another
(09:25):
person that sex can bring. And I hear that so
powerfully in Arthur's question. And the second thing that people
say they want and like about sex with a partner,
I mean, I bet you could guess this. The second
thing people say, after connection, they want pleasure. But let's
think through how this wanting and longing for connection and
(09:48):
pleasure actually plays out for a couple like this, a
couple with a desire differential. Let's imagine Arthur and his
wife in a sex therapist office. Picture of them. They're
They're sitting on a couch, probably at opposite ends of
the couch. I want us to give them the A
(10:09):
real sex therapist and researcher, doctor Peggy Klein Plots, who
is the leader of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research Group
in Canada. I'm a gigantic fan. Her book is called
Magnificent Sex. Please everyone read it. It will change your life.
She studies people who have extraordinary sex lives to find
(10:31):
out what they can teach couples like Arthur and his wife.
So there they are sitting in her office, and Arthur's
wife might say something like, I know he wants to
have sex, but I'd be happy if we never had
sex again in my life. I'm sorry, that's just how
it is. Peggy's response would be, tell me more about
(10:55):
the sex you don't want. As Arthur says, he likes
it and his wife doesn't like it, so probably the
sex that Arthur's wife will describe might not be very pleasurable.
Maybe she spent a lot of years feeling sex was
something she needed to do out of obligation, or something
that she did because he wanted it and not because
(11:19):
she wanted or liked it. Maybe it's even painful, maybe
it's boring. Whatever the case, what we often find is
that a difficulty like this with desire is not actually
because a person doesn't want sex exactly. The problem is
they don't like the sex that's available. The way Peggy
(11:41):
says it is sometimes low desire is evidence of good judgment,
and my way of saying it, the thing I say
over and over is that pleasure is the measure of
sexual well being. So, as Peggy describes her interactions with
couples like this in the past, she has said things like, well,
I rather like sex, but if I were having that sex,
I wouldn't want it either. And so her next question
(12:01):
to clients is what kind of sex is worth wanting?
The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection of the
long term have sex worth wanting. And when I say wanting,
this is the essential caveat. I'm not talking about spontaneous desire.
Remember back from the Spontaneous Desire episode, These couples have sex,
(12:23):
not because they're so horny they can't help themselves, but
because they feel that it does good things for their
relationship and for their shared lives and for their individual spirits,
that they not do all the other things that are
so important in our lives and they just spend this
time with each other. I love that you started answering
this question talking about basically their relationship and their emotional selves. So,
(12:47):
if we're going to talk about long term relationships, I
think one of those questions that comes up all the
time for people in long term relationships is the question
of frequency, like are we doing it enough? Or is
our relationship at risk if we haven't had sex in
X period of time however long that is. And there
(13:08):
is so much cultural messaging around what's enough sex in
a long term relationship? What regular sex quote unquote should
look like in a long term relationship. Yeah, and you
know what the answer is going to be, because you
use that word should stop shooting on ourselves. And I
do I get this question all the time. How often
are people supposed to have sex? Or how often do
(13:31):
couples have sex according to science? People definitely want that answer,
but the science answer, it's not going to help you,
and sometimes the science answer can do harm. Right, So
how do science get this answer? We ask a thousand
couples how frequently do you have sex? And then we
add their answers together and divide it by the number
(13:52):
of couples, and there we have the average frequency of
couples in long term relationships. So you hear that number
and you can't not compare yourself to that number and
judge yourself as doing it right or doing it wrong,
like few, we're better than those people, or oh no,
there must be something wrong. But in reality, what in
(14:15):
the world do those people who participated in their research
have to do with you and your sex life? Nothing? Right?
You don't know those people. Those people don't know your life,
So I don't actually give the answer to the question
how often does the average couple have sex? Because it's
you can't hear it and not use it against yourself
(14:38):
as a way to decide that you're not normal. Like
if you have sex more often than those people, than
you're normal and you feel a certain way about that,
and if you have sex less off and you feel
a different way, and it's a reflex like you cannot
help it. But again, the sexual frequency of all those
other couples has nothing to do with you and your
(14:58):
relationship and this season in your life. That scientific data
is relevant to literally no one. It is deadly squat
It is meaningless. Sorry. I know people want a number.
People want the number so bad. Y'all can look it
up if you want to, But I'm not going to
be the one who hands you that weapon. I found
(15:18):
the number very recently, in fact, while we were working
on this show together, and it caused me to spiral
in my relationship that I wasn't doing it enough. And
then there's also the horrible, terrible trope of I don't
even know if I should say it, of lesbian bed
death that I'm so afraid of. Girl. I have a
whole chapter on lesbian bed death in the book You Do, Yes,
(15:41):
Lucky Me. And the thing the thing to know is
that there isn't really a strong relationship between frequency of
sex and sex or relationship satisfaction. You know what is
predictive of sex and relationship satisfaction pleasure? It is whether
or not you like the sex you are having. And
(16:03):
to compare your relationship to some standard in the research
is to apply cis heteronormative, patriarchal standards to your sex life.
You're letting the man win if you let yourself spiral
about sexual frequency. And while it might be the case
(16:24):
that lesbian couples have sex less frequently as their relationship
goes on, that's true for lots of different kinds of couples.
And also it's the case that those couples, compared to
heterosexual couples, have more oral sex, more variety of sexual behaviors.
They're more likely to say I love you, and they
have sex longer. If that matters to you, Yeah, it does.
(16:47):
It clicks for me. That definitely resonates. So it's not
the frequency that matters, it's the quality, whether or not
you like it. Okay, So the other big elephant in
the room, which you talked about right at the beginning,
is how your body changes as you age. And when
you talk about a long term relationship, you are also
(17:07):
inherently talking about aging. What do we need to know
about sex and aging? Oh? Yes, it's real that bodies
change over time. For sis gender men, testosterol levels drop
across their adult lives. I think the peak is in
the late teens, and by the time you get to
your sixties, seventies, eighties, erections take more time, and maybe
(17:31):
you know if you're lying down, your erection is going
to point where the ceiling instead of pointing at your chin.
For sis gender women, the hormone changes of menopause can
result in physical changes like thinning of the tissue of
the vulva and vagina, which can lead to tearing, which
can lead to pain, which of course is going to
reduce your interest in sex. But a lot of other
changes that are sometimes attributed to menopause, including reduced sexual interests,
(17:54):
aren't actually about hormones. They're about psychology, how you feel
about your changing body and how the other symptoms are
affecting your sense of who you are as a person.
And of course, for transfolks will be completely unsurprised to
know that there is a dearth of research about aging insects.
(18:14):
I can say that for anyone who has or ever
has had a uterus, I would recommend heathercorn As Menopause book,
What fresh hell is this? This book is like your
non binary best friend has become an edrocrinologist and they
take no shit. I would also point you to Amassani,
Bernie Scott's multimedia project Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause.
(18:37):
I think gen X's really pushing progress so that as
we my generation gets to menopause, we are not accepting
the cis gender, heteronormative, medicalized crap the Boomers had to experience,
and that includes not making assumptions about what's going to
happen to our sex lives on the other side of menopause.
(18:58):
We want to be who we are without conforming to
somebody else's narrative of who they say we're supposed to be.
And it is real. While I say that people respond
differently to aging, for some people, really it does feel
like I never have to worry about that again, in
which case do you. But for others it's now I
(19:19):
am liberated from all those ridiculous standards against which I
was always supposed to be measuring myself. None of that
applies to me now, and I am free to do
what I want. I will be sure to put the
links to those books in the show notes. Oh, that'd
be great, thank you. Of course. I have heard tell
of the papery and often tearing post menopausal vagina, and
(19:42):
I have to say the first time I heard the
word papery. I was like, it was like times slowed down.
I was like, what do you mean PAPERI And medical
treatments for that do exist, hormonal vaginal implant treatments and
by the time you get to menopause they'll be even
more in better interventions. M okay. So Arthur asks, are
(20:04):
you supposed to have sex when you get this old?
And obviously, like you said, there are no rule, no obligations,
but you are saying like it's normal for your body
to have big changes. Yeah, like your body changes so
much when you age. In general, your body and your brain. Yeah,
oh okay, tell me more, you know. Sex therapist and
(20:26):
neuroscientist doctor Nan Wise. She writes that as you age,
all of your senses stored of start to diminish in
their intensity. The connections between your body and your brain
kind of wear out a little bit. Your eyesight, you're
hearing your eyesights as the person who is currently wearing
reading glasses to look at her screen, So your eyesight,
(20:49):
you're hearing your sense of smell and taste, and the
same goes for your sense of arousal. So that's called interreception,
your awareness of your own body sensations and so orgasm
and other genital sensations and arousal might feel less intense too.
So if your idea of sex worth want is sex
(21:09):
that is the same as when you were younger, or
sex that is full of intense, spontaneous desire and lots
of athletic positions, then maybe you will feel dissatisfied with
sex as you age. But there's a very simple fix
for that. All you have to change in order to
increase your satisfaction is shift your understanding that the sex
(21:33):
that is accessible to you in your body as it
is right now, as long as it's pleasurable and of
course consensual, it's worth having if you decided is worth having.
There's no rule. There's just what rule sex, however you
define it, what role it plays in your life and
your relationship. Can I let me plug here Nan Wise's book.
(21:54):
It's called Why Good Sex Matters. It is hilarious. So
if you like humor and affective neuroscience together, this is
a book for you niche audience that I think might
be listening right now. In fact, okay, let's take a
break and when we get back and we can talk
about how we apply the science to hopefully give Arthur
(22:14):
and his wife an answer to the question of like,
what is sex that is worth wanting? Fantastic, So, Emily,
you and I are here answering probably my favorite question
(22:37):
that we've gotten all season from this absolute king. He's
eighty years old and his wife is seventy five. Let
me just play a little bit of the clip to
remind you, are you supposed to have six when you
get that old? I'm saying, if you want it, I
do want it. Do you think this is the oldest
person you've ever gotten a question from? Oh, he's not
(22:58):
the oldest people in their eighties? Is the oldest that
I hear from. I have not yet been the teacher
to a nonogenarian, but for example, a woman attended a
workshop I led, who told me afterward that she was
there because she had recently had her first orgasm and
she was seventy five. Oh wow, good for her. There
(23:19):
was also a couple who attended a workshop I led.
I'll be honest, they were definitely in their seventies, but
they were there for fun. They did not actually need
any help from me. Also, very good for them. Like
I think everyone saw that news story a few years
ago about how STIs are on the rise and nursing
homes and how seniors gets and there was a Parks
(23:41):
and rac episode about teaching seniors to use condoms. Yes,
I remember that. Today we are here to talk about
safe sex. I know this is a personal question, but
how many of you out there are sexually active? Oh? My,
I have two partners often at the same time. Wow,
thank you. We know old people bang, but we don't
talk about it. Culturally. It's like we just de sexualize
(24:04):
people as they age. Yeah. I kind of wish it
were as simple as just de sexual I think a
lot of people are raised to feel that older people's
sexuality is like ick, because we're taught that if a
person's body doesn't conform with this fictional cultural ideal, which
definitely involves a young adult body, then those people shouldn't
(24:27):
be having sex. And the thing is all of that
stuff is a lie, and we get to choose to
challenge that experience that in ourselves and our relationships with
all the people around us. We want to be those
people at that sex workshop when we're eighty, or calling
into a sex hotline when we're eighty. We do want
(24:47):
to be those people so I want to give Arthur
and his wife some real practical advice, and also for
every couple that's maybe in a long term relationship, or
maybe somebody who is confronting age and their body changing.
What would be your like practical day to day advice
(25:09):
for people in this situation. This is a variation on
the question I'm asked most by people in long term
relationships is what to do about a desire differential? So
for anyone who is a higher desire partner in a relationship,
once the relationship is stable, because again, the couples who
sustain a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and
(25:30):
trust each other. When that's in place, the first thing
to do, your first step is to talk to your
partner about what kind of sex is worth wanting. And
the hard part is that maybe their answer is no
kind of sex I've ever had has been worth wanting,
or I can hardly imagine any sex that would be
(25:52):
worth wanting. And if that's the person's answer, therapy and
let me normalize that. Yes, couples this sage definitely do
seek therapy. There's a whole book by sex therapist Barry
McCarthy and his wife Emily they're both in their seventies,
themselves married to each other for over fifty years. They've
seen so many older couples that they wrote this whole
book to help therapists work with these clients. It's called
(26:15):
Couples Sexuality after sixty. So Step one talk about sex
worth wanting and if you need help with that conversation
therapy step two. So I've said the couples who sustain
a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and trust
each other, and they prioritize sex. But I'm going to
(26:36):
add a third characteristic. Couples who sustain a strong sexual
connection over the long term reject the binary gender rules
that were assigned to them, especially around their sexuality. Both
the McCarthy's and there's a sex educator and researcher named
Jane Fleischmann who emphasizes the importance of this third characteristic.
(27:01):
So Jane wrote a book called The Stonewall Generation, which
is about the sex lives of LGBTQIA two plus elder
boomers who were part of the revolution that's often marked
by the Stonewall Riot, and she interviewed them to find
out what their sex lives were like, and she found
that the predictors of sexual satisfaction among these folks were so.
(27:23):
The first one was, of course, lowered internalized homophobia, and second,
higher acceptance of their aging bodies. When older LGBTQIA too
plus people have better sex, it's when they are rejecting
the binary. It's when they're rejecting the script that says,
this is who you're supposed to be, and that is
(27:44):
something we can all do. So when I hear Arthur
talking about taking something to I think he says, get
to his potential. Yes, what I hear there is erections,
and I even hear the assumption that it's penis and
vagina sex that he means he wants when he says
he wants and like sex. That's the intercourse imperative. It
(28:07):
is assis heteronormative script of what counts as sex. A
long time ago, when viagraph first came out, for example,
there was a study done at the Kinsey Institute that
found that wives in heterosexual couples where the husband had
started taking viagra were actually less satisfied with their sex
lives because they liked that intercourse had become decentralized in
(28:32):
their sex lives, and when erections came back because he
was taking a medication. All the other pleasurable things they
were doing went away because now the erection was here,
And so penetration. People expand their access to pleasure when
they reject the scripts that tell them what emotions they're
(28:53):
allowed to feel and who's allowed to initiate and what
kind of sex you're supposed to have because of whatever
body parts you have. So maybe this doesn't sound like
practical advice, but it actually is concrete, specific practical advice.
Write down the script that you were given about who
you're supposed to be as a gendered person and start
(29:16):
crossing out the stuff that's getting in the way of
your access to pleasure. I'm hearing this, and I obviously
know this to be true. Like, what you're saying makes
a lot of sense, but it requires two people in
a relationship to both be doing that work of like
(29:36):
deconstructing the lives they've been told about sex and gender
and their body and shame and finding pleasure and joy.
Like if just one of them is doing it, I
don't think it would maybe have the same magnificent sex
effect on their life. You know, Yeah, there is magnificent
sex that's available through masturbation through solo sex. So if
(29:58):
Arthur can do nothing else like as his partner, if
his wife is really just like no and no, I
don't like it, I don't want it, I don't want
to think about it anymore. Right then what he absolutely like,
he can make a bunch of choice for himself, and
one of those choices is to practice masturbation in an ecstatic, authentic, deliberate,
exploratory way. Again full circle. We started out with someone
(30:24):
who's not interested in masturbating. Yeah, our second episode with
the question from Sarah, and we end up with the
advice to masturbate a whole lot like in like, don't
do it quick, let it take time, don't make it
about orgasm, make it about what am I going to say?
Make your masturbation about pleasure? Pleasure? Of course I knew
(30:46):
pleasure was going to come back. Okay, on that note,
I think we should take a quick break. No, I
want to stay here and talk about sex and long
term relationships forever. But yeah, probably yes, we should take
a ridk Okay, and when we get back, I want
to revisit some of the big lessons you covered in
this episode. All right, Emily, we're back. Our final episode
(31:20):
of this season is coming to a close. No rip
my heart out, I know what am I ever going
to do? In the meantime, can you just recap some
of the takeaways from this episode about sex in long
term relationships and in long term relationships like Arthur's yes
we assume, we assume Yes fantastic idea? So four things.
(31:44):
First of all, aging is real and normal, and sometimes
it's inconvenient and disappointing, But whatever happens, the ones who
get old are the lucky ones. And different people respond
differently to aging, including in how they feel about sex
in their aging bodies. For some people, it really is few.
I never have to worry about that again, And for
(32:04):
others it's few. I am liberated from all that nonsense,
all the standards against which I was supposed to be
comparing myself. Two. Couples who sustain a strong sexual connection
over the long term are couples who admire and trust
each other and who prioritize sex. Three. Sex is easier
(32:26):
to prioritize when everyone involved likes the sex, So talk
to each other about what kind of sex is worth wanting.
And if you haven't read it yet, please go read
Peggy Cliine Plots and Danna Maynard's Magnificent Sex, which is
about the research on the extraordinary lovers. And finally, the
ultimate real answer to having great sex in the long
(32:48):
term is releasing yourselves from the six heteronormative scripts about
how you're supposed to experience sex and who's allowed to
have it or do it and what's supposed to happen
while you're doing it. Wow. You mentioned so many amazing
books in this episode, and they are all going to
be in the show notes. Well, Emily, that puts a
(33:14):
bow on this puppy. That wraps it right up. I
just want to thank you so much for being the
best sex head teacher I've ever had, DAP. It has
been a delight in a pleasure. I am absolutely sincere.
You have just described my actual literal reason for being
on earth, which is teaching people to live with confidence
(33:34):
and joy in their bodies, letting them know that they're normal,
and teaching them how to create pleasure with science. And
I feel like I feel like we're doing it. You're
doing it, and I'm just learning along the way. And
now I'm off to finish my book. It's called Come Together,
(33:55):
and I'm very proud of that. Oh my god, that's
so good. Get it see because it's not about simultaneous orgasm.
It's about people turning toward each other. Prepare yourself for
Come Together, coming out in twenty twenty three. Thank you
all so much for listening. Come As You Are is
(34:17):
a production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted
and executive produced by Emily Nagowsky. You can find Emily
on Instagram at e Nagowsky and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski.
You can also sign up for her newsletter at Emily
Nagowsky dot com, where she writes about everything from the
clitterest in your mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's
(34:40):
an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended. This show is co hosted
and lead produced by me Mola Board. You can find
me online at Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast
dot slut Sorry mom. My co producer on this show
is the fabulous Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan.
(35:01):
Sound design and mix by Ann Pope. Executive producers are
Mia LaBelle and Lee taal Mallad. We also want to
give a special thank you to the many people who
talked to us while we were developing this series. That's
Robin Manning, Samuel's Nadine Thornhill, Angela Chin, Aubrey Lancaster, Shine,
Louise Houston, Ericamohen, Doctor China Usai, and doctor Nan Wise
(35:25):
at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane,
Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob
Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein
and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe,
(35:45):
Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original
music for this series was composed by Ameliagoski and arranged
and reported by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound.
You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,
and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
(36:08):
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Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
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Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions or at pushkin dot fm.
(36:29):
If you subscribe to Pushkin Plus, you can hear Come
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(36:49):
to listen
Pushkin Hi, Emilia, and I'm going I have a question
for you man not alive. She's said it, and I'm
eight and I like sex and she does not. I
(00:37):
have a good friend in his eighties, and honestly, he's
maybe the most sexual person I know. But it is
true that what sexual looks like for him in his
eighties is different from how he looked earlier in his life.
But I think it's different in ways you might not expect.
I'm Emilinagaski and this is the Come as you Are
(01:01):
podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In
this episode, we're going to be talking about out sex
in long term relationships. I'm writing my next book on this,
so it is always on my mind. Plus I have
come across so much interesting research. So here's my producer,
(01:21):
mo Hi mo Hi, Emilie. We've had such a great
season and I can't believe it's already coming to an end.
I feel like these episodes have been an updated like
Sex Said, what a one course for everyone like me
who didn't get the Sex said they deserved absolutely, and
people could listen to it while they were folding laundry
(01:44):
or commuting to work. Among the many reasons. I love podcasts. Yes,
now this question today, Okay. I immediately thought that we
needed to answer this on the show because I know
you're writing a book about sex in long term relationships. Yeah,
there are so many stereotypes too, and so many questions
(02:04):
about sex and aging. The New York Times this year
did a story on sex and aging and there were
like some photographs of people in situations and on Instagram.
The comments half of them were like, this is so
great for them, and the other half were like, uh,
get this off my feed sterilize my eyeballs. So I
love addressing a topic that carries this kind of taboo,
(02:25):
even though it's a topic that a lot of us
would love to live long enough to have it apply
to us. Totally. Lucky him that he is thinking about
this and wanting to improve his sex life at eighty.
That is incredible. So why did you choose the topic
of sex and long term relationships for your next book?
It's based on a true story. Tell me. It took
(02:48):
me about a year and a half to write Come
as You Are, which is a book that is all
about the science of women's sexual well being. So I
was thinking and writing and reading about sex all day,
every day, And ironically, after all that time thinking about sex,
I had zero interest in actually having any sex. As
(03:09):
you know, I am married to somebody, and that's somebody
because of me. Went months with nothing from me, and
then the book was published, and I traveled all over
the country talking to anyone who would listen about the
science of sex. And when I got back from those trips,
i'd be so tired that we'd try to get in
bed together and I would just cry and fall asleep.
(03:33):
So there were more months of nothing right, and I
missed the sex. I missed my partner, and I missed
the part of myself that plays in the erotic realm.
Like I have always imagined myself having an erotic connection
that develops and grows with a certain special someone far
into our old age. I want us to be giggling
(03:56):
and licking and snuggling until we're ninety five, if we're
lucky enough to live that long. So here I was
sixty years ahead of schedule already losing that, and I
was was pretty shocking. But I had spent all that
time reading a lot of science about sexuality, so there
were some things I knew about sex and a long
(04:18):
term relationship that helped us find our way back to
each other. But it wasn't stuff I was finding in
other books. So this new book is the book that
I wanted to read in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. It's
the science that helped us stay connected even through twenty
sixteen and twenty seventeen. And then oh gosh, here's a
(04:40):
global pandemic. Right, So this is the science I couldn't
find another books, but that I knew because I was
reading the science and because I was putting it to
work in my own relationship. It seems like you are
perfectly equipped to answer today's question. So are you ready
to hear the whole thing? So ready? My name is
(05:03):
archer Man. Not alive, she said in it five and
I and I'll like shick and she does not. I
take all natural to help me to get my potential.
So why is it she don't like to have relations
with me when we can? Are you supposed to have
(05:28):
sex when you get that old? What I'm saying if
you want it, I do want it. I love to
have it, and so I just want to nip. There's
sometimes a rule on that. So that's all I asked
him by now and have a good day. I love
(05:49):
Arthur so much. On a certain level, it's really heartbreaking
to hear like the loneliness and isolation. Why doesn't my
wife like having sex with me? And also I feel
really optimistic and hopeful about it, because if he's willing
to ask the question out loud, that suggests to me
(06:09):
that they might be able to answer the question together.
You were saying that you have been researching and reading
all about on long term sexual relationships. Can you explain
to us what science that we might need to know
in order to answer this question. Yes, I would love
nothing more. It's one of my favorite things to talk about,
(06:30):
so to begin with, of course, there are no rules.
That's what Arthur is asking, and if he has listened
to the rest of the series, he will know that
by now. And I would point out that Arthur doesn't
actually tell us how long he and his wife have
been together. Maybe they have been together for fifty years,
or maybe they just met and got married five or
ten years ago or less. We don't know. I was
(06:50):
wondering before we get too far into this answer, like,
how do you define a long term relationship? Oh, that's
a really great question. Yeah, what counts is long term.
For me, it's any relationship that has lasted long enough
for things to change. So you look back and you're like, wow,
things have really changed since we first got together, and
maybe that's three months, or maybe it's ten years. I
(07:14):
love that definition because I have been with my girlfriend
for three years, but we've got together in twenty nineteen,
and it feels like we are so close. And you know,
this is explaining to me the phenomenon of the pandemic
couple basically having a really intense connection. Yeah, it's a
phenomenon in social psychology that people who have to solve
(07:36):
a problem that they can only solve by solving it
together naturally bond in a really deep way. But regardless
of how long people have been together, regardless of their
age or their health status, regardless of their genders or
any other characteristic of their identities or relationship structure. What
the research shows me is that couples who sustain a
(07:59):
strong sexual connection over many years have two things in common. First,
they are friends who trust and admire each other, and second,
they prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their
relationship and they're shared lives, that they close the door
(08:20):
on all the other things they could be doing, right,
like they maybe they've got kids to raise, or work
to go to, or letters to their representatives to write,
other friends or in family to spend time with. Maybe
they want to sleep. God forbid, we are busy, right,
But these folks who sustain a strong sexual connection over
the long term stop everything else and just turn toward
(08:44):
each other's erotic selves. And my question is, why would
anyone do that? Why stop all the other really important
things in our lives and do this, let's face it,
pretty silly thing that humans do. So I have actually
(09:05):
asked people what is it that you like when you
like sex? And what is it that you want when
you want sex with a partner? And the first thing
people say is connection. We want and like and long
for the vulnerability and authenticity and co presence with another
(09:25):
person that sex can bring. And I hear that so
powerfully in Arthur's question. And the second thing that people
say they want and like about sex with a partner,
I mean, I bet you could guess this. The second
thing people say, after connection, they want pleasure. But let's
think through how this wanting and longing for connection and
(09:48):
pleasure actually plays out for a couple like this, a
couple with a desire differential. Let's imagine Arthur and his
wife in a sex therapist office. Picture of them. They're
They're sitting on a couch, probably at opposite ends of
the couch. I want us to give them the A
(10:09):
real sex therapist and researcher, doctor Peggy Klein Plots, who
is the leader of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research Group
in Canada. I'm a gigantic fan. Her book is called
Magnificent Sex. Please everyone read it. It will change your life.
She studies people who have extraordinary sex lives to find
(10:31):
out what they can teach couples like Arthur and his wife.
So there they are sitting in her office, and Arthur's
wife might say something like, I know he wants to
have sex, but I'd be happy if we never had
sex again in my life. I'm sorry, that's just how
it is. Peggy's response would be, tell me more about
(10:55):
the sex you don't want. As Arthur says, he likes
it and his wife doesn't like it, so probably the
sex that Arthur's wife will describe might not be very pleasurable.
Maybe she spent a lot of years feeling sex was
something she needed to do out of obligation, or something
that she did because he wanted it and not because
(11:19):
she wanted or liked it. Maybe it's even painful, maybe
it's boring. Whatever the case, what we often find is
that a difficulty like this with desire is not actually
because a person doesn't want sex exactly. The problem is
they don't like the sex that's available. The way Peggy
(11:41):
says it is sometimes low desire is evidence of good judgment,
and my way of saying it, the thing I say
over and over is that pleasure is the measure of
sexual well being. So, as Peggy describes her interactions with
couples like this in the past, she has said things like, well,
I rather like sex, but if I were having that sex,
I wouldn't want it either. And so her next question
(12:01):
to clients is what kind of sex is worth wanting?
The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection of the
long term have sex worth wanting. And when I say wanting,
this is the essential caveat. I'm not talking about spontaneous desire.
Remember back from the Spontaneous Desire episode, These couples have sex,
(12:23):
not because they're so horny they can't help themselves, but
because they feel that it does good things for their
relationship and for their shared lives and for their individual spirits,
that they not do all the other things that are
so important in our lives and they just spend this
time with each other. I love that you started answering
this question talking about basically their relationship and their emotional selves. So,
(12:47):
if we're going to talk about long term relationships, I
think one of those questions that comes up all the
time for people in long term relationships is the question
of frequency, like are we doing it enough? Or is
our relationship at risk if we haven't had sex in
X period of time however long that is. And there
(13:08):
is so much cultural messaging around what's enough sex in
a long term relationship? What regular sex quote unquote should
look like in a long term relationship. Yeah, and you
know what the answer is going to be, because you
use that word should stop shooting on ourselves. And I
do I get this question all the time. How often
are people supposed to have sex? Or how often do
(13:31):
couples have sex according to science? People definitely want that answer,
but the science answer, it's not going to help you,
and sometimes the science answer can do harm. Right, So
how do science get this answer? We ask a thousand
couples how frequently do you have sex? And then we
add their answers together and divide it by the number
(13:52):
of couples, and there we have the average frequency of
couples in long term relationships. So you hear that number
and you can't not compare yourself to that number and
judge yourself as doing it right or doing it wrong,
like few, we're better than those people, or oh no,
there must be something wrong. But in reality, what in
(14:15):
the world do those people who participated in their research
have to do with you and your sex life? Nothing? Right?
You don't know those people. Those people don't know your life,
So I don't actually give the answer to the question
how often does the average couple have sex? Because it's
you can't hear it and not use it against yourself
(14:38):
as a way to decide that you're not normal. Like
if you have sex more often than those people, than
you're normal and you feel a certain way about that,
and if you have sex less off and you feel
a different way, and it's a reflex like you cannot
help it. But again, the sexual frequency of all those
other couples has nothing to do with you and your
(14:58):
relationship and this season in your life. That scientific data
is relevant to literally no one. It is deadly squat
It is meaningless. Sorry. I know people want a number.
People want the number so bad. Y'all can look it
up if you want to, But I'm not going to
be the one who hands you that weapon. I found
(15:18):
the number very recently, in fact, while we were working
on this show together, and it caused me to spiral
in my relationship that I wasn't doing it enough. And
then there's also the horrible, terrible trope of I don't
even know if I should say it, of lesbian bed
death that I'm so afraid of. Girl. I have a
whole chapter on lesbian bed death in the book You Do, Yes,
(15:41):
Lucky Me. And the thing the thing to know is
that there isn't really a strong relationship between frequency of
sex and sex or relationship satisfaction. You know what is
predictive of sex and relationship satisfaction pleasure? It is whether
or not you like the sex you are having. And
(16:03):
to compare your relationship to some standard in the research
is to apply cis heteronormative, patriarchal standards to your sex life.
You're letting the man win if you let yourself spiral
about sexual frequency. And while it might be the case
(16:24):
that lesbian couples have sex less frequently as their relationship
goes on, that's true for lots of different kinds of couples.
And also it's the case that those couples, compared to
heterosexual couples, have more oral sex, more variety of sexual behaviors.
They're more likely to say I love you, and they
have sex longer. If that matters to you, Yeah, it does.
(16:47):
It clicks for me. That definitely resonates. So it's not
the frequency that matters, it's the quality, whether or not
you like it. Okay, So the other big elephant in
the room, which you talked about right at the beginning,
is how your body changes as you age. And when
you talk about a long term relationship, you are also
(17:07):
inherently talking about aging. What do we need to know
about sex and aging? Oh? Yes, it's real that bodies
change over time. For sis gender men, testosterol levels drop
across their adult lives. I think the peak is in
the late teens, and by the time you get to
your sixties, seventies, eighties, erections take more time, and maybe
(17:31):
you know if you're lying down, your erection is going
to point where the ceiling instead of pointing at your chin.
For sis gender women, the hormone changes of menopause can
result in physical changes like thinning of the tissue of
the vulva and vagina, which can lead to tearing, which
can lead to pain, which of course is going to
reduce your interest in sex. But a lot of other
changes that are sometimes attributed to menopause, including reduced sexual interests,
(17:54):
aren't actually about hormones. They're about psychology, how you feel
about your changing body and how the other symptoms are
affecting your sense of who you are as a person.
And of course, for transfolks will be completely unsurprised to
know that there is a dearth of research about aging insects.
(18:14):
I can say that for anyone who has or ever
has had a uterus, I would recommend heathercorn As Menopause book,
What fresh hell is this? This book is like your
non binary best friend has become an edrocrinologist and they
take no shit. I would also point you to Amassani,
Bernie Scott's multimedia project Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause.
(18:37):
I think gen X's really pushing progress so that as
we my generation gets to menopause, we are not accepting
the cis gender, heteronormative, medicalized crap the Boomers had to experience,
and that includes not making assumptions about what's going to
happen to our sex lives on the other side of menopause.
(18:58):
We want to be who we are without conforming to
somebody else's narrative of who they say we're supposed to be.
And it is real. While I say that people respond
differently to aging, for some people, really it does feel
like I never have to worry about that again, in
which case do you. But for others it's now I
(19:19):
am liberated from all those ridiculous standards against which I
was always supposed to be measuring myself. None of that
applies to me now, and I am free to do
what I want. I will be sure to put the
links to those books in the show notes. Oh, that'd
be great, thank you. Of course. I have heard tell
of the papery and often tearing post menopausal vagina, and
(19:42):
I have to say the first time I heard the
word papery. I was like, it was like times slowed down.
I was like, what do you mean PAPERI And medical
treatments for that do exist, hormonal vaginal implant treatments and
by the time you get to menopause they'll be even
more in better interventions. M okay. So Arthur asks, are
(20:04):
you supposed to have sex when you get this old?
And obviously, like you said, there are no rule, no obligations,
but you are saying like it's normal for your body
to have big changes. Yeah, like your body changes so
much when you age. In general, your body and your brain. Yeah,
oh okay, tell me more, you know. Sex therapist and
(20:26):
neuroscientist doctor Nan Wise. She writes that as you age,
all of your senses stored of start to diminish in
their intensity. The connections between your body and your brain
kind of wear out a little bit. Your eyesight, you're
hearing your eyesights as the person who is currently wearing
reading glasses to look at her screen, So your eyesight,
(20:49):
you're hearing your sense of smell and taste, and the
same goes for your sense of arousal. So that's called interreception,
your awareness of your own body sensations and so orgasm
and other genital sensations and arousal might feel less intense too.
So if your idea of sex worth want is sex
(21:09):
that is the same as when you were younger, or
sex that is full of intense, spontaneous desire and lots
of athletic positions, then maybe you will feel dissatisfied with
sex as you age. But there's a very simple fix
for that. All you have to change in order to
increase your satisfaction is shift your understanding that the sex
(21:33):
that is accessible to you in your body as it
is right now, as long as it's pleasurable and of
course consensual, it's worth having if you decided is worth having.
There's no rule. There's just what rule sex, however you
define it, what role it plays in your life and
your relationship. Can I let me plug here Nan Wise's book.
(21:54):
It's called Why Good Sex Matters. It is hilarious. So
if you like humor and affective neuroscience together, this is
a book for you niche audience that I think might
be listening right now. In fact, okay, let's take a
break and when we get back and we can talk
about how we apply the science to hopefully give Arthur
(22:14):
and his wife an answer to the question of like,
what is sex that is worth wanting? Fantastic, So, Emily,
you and I are here answering probably my favorite question
(22:37):
that we've gotten all season from this absolute king. He's
eighty years old and his wife is seventy five. Let
me just play a little bit of the clip to
remind you, are you supposed to have six when you
get that old? I'm saying, if you want it, I
do want it. Do you think this is the oldest
person you've ever gotten a question from? Oh, he's not
(22:58):
the oldest people in their eighties? Is the oldest that
I hear from. I have not yet been the teacher
to a nonogenarian, but for example, a woman attended a
workshop I led, who told me afterward that she was
there because she had recently had her first orgasm and
she was seventy five. Oh wow, good for her. There
(23:19):
was also a couple who attended a workshop I led.
I'll be honest, they were definitely in their seventies, but
they were there for fun. They did not actually need
any help from me. Also, very good for them. Like
I think everyone saw that news story a few years
ago about how STIs are on the rise and nursing
homes and how seniors gets and there was a Parks
(23:41):
and rac episode about teaching seniors to use condoms. Yes,
I remember that. Today we are here to talk about
safe sex. I know this is a personal question, but
how many of you out there are sexually active? Oh? My,
I have two partners often at the same time. Wow,
thank you. We know old people bang, but we don't
talk about it. Culturally. It's like we just de sexualize
(24:04):
people as they age. Yeah. I kind of wish it
were as simple as just de sexual I think a
lot of people are raised to feel that older people's
sexuality is like ick, because we're taught that if a
person's body doesn't conform with this fictional cultural ideal, which
definitely involves a young adult body, then those people shouldn't
(24:27):
be having sex. And the thing is all of that
stuff is a lie, and we get to choose to
challenge that experience that in ourselves and our relationships with
all the people around us. We want to be those
people at that sex workshop when we're eighty, or calling
into a sex hotline when we're eighty. We do want
(24:47):
to be those people so I want to give Arthur
and his wife some real practical advice, and also for
every couple that's maybe in a long term relationship, or
maybe somebody who is confronting age and their body changing.
What would be your like practical day to day advice
(25:09):
for people in this situation. This is a variation on
the question I'm asked most by people in long term
relationships is what to do about a desire differential? So
for anyone who is a higher desire partner in a relationship,
once the relationship is stable, because again, the couples who
sustain a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and
(25:30):
trust each other. When that's in place, the first thing
to do, your first step is to talk to your
partner about what kind of sex is worth wanting. And
the hard part is that maybe their answer is no
kind of sex I've ever had has been worth wanting,
or I can hardly imagine any sex that would be
(25:52):
worth wanting. And if that's the person's answer, therapy and
let me normalize that. Yes, couples this sage definitely do
seek therapy. There's a whole book by sex therapist Barry
McCarthy and his wife Emily they're both in their seventies,
themselves married to each other for over fifty years. They've
seen so many older couples that they wrote this whole
book to help therapists work with these clients. It's called
(26:15):
Couples Sexuality after sixty. So Step one talk about sex
worth wanting and if you need help with that conversation
therapy step two. So I've said the couples who sustain
a strong sexual connection are friends who admire and trust
each other, and they prioritize sex. But I'm going to
(26:36):
add a third characteristic. Couples who sustain a strong sexual
connection over the long term reject the binary gender rules
that were assigned to them, especially around their sexuality. Both
the McCarthy's and there's a sex educator and researcher named
Jane Fleischmann who emphasizes the importance of this third characteristic.
(27:01):
So Jane wrote a book called The Stonewall Generation, which
is about the sex lives of LGBTQIA two plus elder
boomers who were part of the revolution that's often marked
by the Stonewall Riot, and she interviewed them to find
out what their sex lives were like, and she found
that the predictors of sexual satisfaction among these folks were so.
(27:23):
The first one was, of course, lowered internalized homophobia, and second,
higher acceptance of their aging bodies. When older LGBTQIA too
plus people have better sex, it's when they are rejecting
the binary. It's when they're rejecting the script that says,
this is who you're supposed to be, and that is
(27:44):
something we can all do. So when I hear Arthur
talking about taking something to I think he says, get
to his potential. Yes, what I hear there is erections,
and I even hear the assumption that it's penis and
vagina sex that he means he wants when he says
he wants and like sex. That's the intercourse imperative. It
(28:07):
is assis heteronormative script of what counts as sex. A
long time ago, when viagraph first came out, for example,
there was a study done at the Kinsey Institute that
found that wives in heterosexual couples where the husband had
started taking viagra were actually less satisfied with their sex
lives because they liked that intercourse had become decentralized in
(28:32):
their sex lives, and when erections came back because he
was taking a medication. All the other pleasurable things they
were doing went away because now the erection was here,
And so penetration. People expand their access to pleasure when
they reject the scripts that tell them what emotions they're
(28:53):
allowed to feel and who's allowed to initiate and what
kind of sex you're supposed to have because of whatever
body parts you have. So maybe this doesn't sound like
practical advice, but it actually is concrete, specific practical advice.
Write down the script that you were given about who
you're supposed to be as a gendered person and start
(29:16):
crossing out the stuff that's getting in the way of
your access to pleasure. I'm hearing this, and I obviously
know this to be true. Like, what you're saying makes
a lot of sense, but it requires two people in
a relationship to both be doing that work of like
(29:36):
deconstructing the lives they've been told about sex and gender
and their body and shame and finding pleasure and joy.
Like if just one of them is doing it, I
don't think it would maybe have the same magnificent sex
effect on their life. You know, Yeah, there is magnificent
sex that's available through masturbation through solo sex. So if
(29:58):
Arthur can do nothing else like as his partner, if
his wife is really just like no and no, I
don't like it, I don't want it, I don't want
to think about it anymore. Right then what he absolutely like,
he can make a bunch of choice for himself, and
one of those choices is to practice masturbation in an ecstatic, authentic, deliberate,
exploratory way. Again full circle. We started out with someone
(30:24):
who's not interested in masturbating. Yeah, our second episode with
the question from Sarah, and we end up with the
advice to masturbate a whole lot like in like, don't
do it quick, let it take time, don't make it
about orgasm, make it about what am I going to say?
Make your masturbation about pleasure? Pleasure? Of course I knew
(30:46):
pleasure was going to come back. Okay, on that note,
I think we should take a quick break. No, I
want to stay here and talk about sex and long
term relationships forever. But yeah, probably yes, we should take
a ridk Okay, and when we get back, I want
to revisit some of the big lessons you covered in
this episode. All right, Emily, we're back. Our final episode
(31:20):
of this season is coming to a close. No rip
my heart out, I know what am I ever going
to do? In the meantime, can you just recap some
of the takeaways from this episode about sex in long
term relationships and in long term relationships like Arthur's yes
we assume, we assume Yes fantastic idea? So four things.
(31:44):
First of all, aging is real and normal, and sometimes
it's inconvenient and disappointing, But whatever happens, the ones who
get old are the lucky ones. And different people respond
differently to aging, including in how they feel about sex
in their aging bodies. For some people, it really is few.
I never have to worry about that again, And for
(32:04):
others it's few. I am liberated from all that nonsense,
all the standards against which I was supposed to be
comparing myself. Two. Couples who sustain a strong sexual connection
over the long term are couples who admire and trust
each other and who prioritize sex. Three. Sex is easier
(32:26):
to prioritize when everyone involved likes the sex, So talk
to each other about what kind of sex is worth wanting.
And if you haven't read it yet, please go read
Peggy Cliine Plots and Danna Maynard's Magnificent Sex, which is
about the research on the extraordinary lovers. And finally, the
ultimate real answer to having great sex in the long
(32:48):
term is releasing yourselves from the six heteronormative scripts about
how you're supposed to experience sex and who's allowed to
have it or do it and what's supposed to happen
while you're doing it. Wow. You mentioned so many amazing
books in this episode, and they are all going to
be in the show notes. Well, Emily, that puts a
(33:14):
bow on this puppy. That wraps it right up. I
just want to thank you so much for being the
best sex head teacher I've ever had, DAP. It has
been a delight in a pleasure. I am absolutely sincere.
You have just described my actual literal reason for being
on earth, which is teaching people to live with confidence
(33:34):
and joy in their bodies, letting them know that they're normal,
and teaching them how to create pleasure with science. And
I feel like I feel like we're doing it. You're
doing it, and I'm just learning along the way. And
now I'm off to finish my book. It's called Come Together,
(33:55):
and I'm very proud of that. Oh my god, that's
so good. Get it see because it's not about simultaneous orgasm.
It's about people turning toward each other. Prepare yourself for
Come Together, coming out in twenty twenty three. Thank you
all so much for listening. Come As You Are is
(34:17):
a production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted
and executive produced by Emily Nagowsky. You can find Emily
on Instagram at e Nagowsky and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski.
You can also sign up for her newsletter at Emily
Nagowsky dot com, where she writes about everything from the
clitterest in your mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's
(34:40):
an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended. This show is co hosted
and lead produced by me Mola Board. You can find
me online at Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast
dot slut Sorry mom. My co producer on this show
is the fabulous Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan.
(35:01):
Sound design and mix by Ann Pope. Executive producers are
Mia LaBelle and Lee taal Mallad. We also want to
give a special thank you to the many people who
talked to us while we were developing this series. That's
Robin Manning, Samuel's Nadine Thornhill, Angela Chin, Aubrey Lancaster, Shine,
Louise Houston, Ericamohen, Doctor China Usai, and doctor Nan Wise
(35:25):
at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane,
Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob
Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein
and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe,
(35:45):
Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original
music for this series was composed by Ameliagoski and arranged
and reported by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound.
You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,
and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
(36:08):
dot Fm. If you love this show and others from
Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is
a podcast subscription that offers bonus content in uninterrupted listening
for only four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin
Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions or at pushkin dot fm.
(36:29):
If you subscribe to Pushkin Plus, you can hear Come
as you Are and other Pushkin shows. Add free very nice,
and you'll get episodes a week early. Sign up on
the Commons you Are show page in Apple Podcasts or
at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like
(36:49):
to listen
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