May 19, 2025 • 38 mins
How Hollywood tried to capitalize on Iran-Contra -- and why the story didn’t take.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The day Oliver North was fired from his job at
the White House, Ronald Reagan called him on the phone
and told him he was a national hero. It was
a brief conversation, but Reagan found time for some gallows humor,
telling North he thought Iran Contra would make a great
movie someday. Reagan, a former Hollywood actor with nearly thirty
years of experience in the movie business, probably didn't realize
(00:49):
how quickly someday would come.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hollywood's already growing up its wait list for a TV
mini series What's Got all the elements.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Of the health. It's a very dramatic story. It's complex,
but it's a dramatic story.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Ali North was the rare star witness and a political
scandal who had actual star quality. Norman Lear, the creator
of All in the Family at good times, marvel at
his stage presence. He gets tears in his eyes. Lear said,
TV eats up moist eyed people.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
There were times when this career military man demonstrated a
brilliant gift for using the media. Through the day, across
the country, Americans watched as network soap operas were replaced
by Oliver North.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Even before the Iran Contra hearings ended in the summer
of nineteen eighty seven. Journalists and producers in Hollywood were
talking about who should play North on the big screen if.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
They ever get around to making the movie of the
contra hearings. Here in Hollywood, Oliver North look alike Treat
Williams would seem to be the front runner for the
leading role.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
At one point during north testimony, Prankster's in Los Angeles
covered up the H and the Hollywood sign so that
it said olliy would.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
An anonymous scholar said he made the change quote not
to condone North's actions, but to give expression to the
nationwide wave of Ali mania.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
The scandal had everything you could want in a blockbuster
international intrigue, communists, bad guys, secret rons abroad. He was
an action movie, a legal drama, and a spy thriller
all at once. And at the center of it stood
a dashing, charismatic man of conviction, a perfect cipher for
American attitudes about government, patriotism, and democracy.
Speaker 7 (02:25):
Is Oliver North, a hero who kept the Nicaraguan resistance
alive after Congress had forbidden it, or a zealot subverted
the system by repeatedly lying about his activities and shredding
the evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The expectation in publishing circles was that North would eventually
be able to get seven figures for his autobiography, which
could in theory be optioned for TV and film. But
that could take years, and producers wanted to capitalize on
the buzz as quickly as possible. That meant they'd have
to find their source material somewhere else, so they turned
to journalism.
Speaker 8 (02:55):
I felt that Iran Contra was a really important story,
really about a constitutional crisis.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
This is Ben Bradley Junior. He's the son of legendary
editor Ben Bradley, who Oversawtergate coverage at the Washington Post.
Speaker 8 (03:12):
You know, the ideologues in the Reagan administration used North
as an agent to circumvent the law.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Ben Bradley Junior was a reporter at the Boston Globe.
In February of nineteen eighty seven, it was announced that
he would chronicle the Iran Contra scandal in a book
called Guts and Glory.
Speaker 8 (03:32):
You know, he had sex appeal. North sort of a
do it yourself, a gung ho brand of patriotism and
making things happen, grabbing the bull by the horns. Exploiting
power vacuums and filling them. That's why I really chose
(03:53):
North as a vehicle to tell the story of Iran
Contra in this book.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Bradley was still working on Guts and Glory when an
outline of the book started circulating in La Mike Robe,
a producer and director, first heard about it from an
executive at CBS. Robe had recently produced a TV movie
for the network called Murder Ordained.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Unmercifully and Without Compassion.
Speaker 9 (04:18):
Murder Ordained was very successful. I was sort of in
the good graces of CBS, and I was beginning to
think about what I wanted to do next. Ann Along
came Ali Maniel.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Robe worked in the increasingly popular genre known as the
docu drama, a kind of fictionalized nonfiction that, as Newsday
put it, gave viewers instant history the way a noodle
mix and hot water give us instant soup. Murder Ordained
was a prime example of the form. It was based
on the true story of a minister in Kansas who
was accused of killing his wife.
Speaker 8 (04:53):
It was a crime beyond belief, starring Terry Kinney Joe Bethwick.
Speaker 9 (05:00):
They were very popular at the time the networks were
looking for any extra boost and notoriety in sizzle that
could elevate the interest in their project above that of
their competition, and it became a whole new art form,
(05:22):
an original American art form.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Robe was intrigued by the idea of making a docudrama
out of the Oliver North story.
Speaker 9 (05:28):
I was fascinated by Oliver North from the get go.
I was a former military officer. I understood the pressures
he was operating under. I understood a lot of his attitude.
I wasn't sure if he was hiding something, but I
did feel he's a heck of a performer, and he
(05:48):
was rather spellbinding to watch.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
He is unquestionably telegenic. You'd perhaps say that the force
is with him. He is a natural.
Speaker 10 (05:57):
I was working desperately to keep the hostages alive. Good grief,
We'd had this stuff all over the newspapers. The Israelis
were calling me every half hour.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And I was Robe did have some reservations.
Speaker 9 (06:10):
From the very get go. My problem as a dramatist,
my challenge was how do you make this terribly convoluted
scheme dramatic for a mass television audience in a way
that they can come to care about someone in the
(06:33):
show and to understand the very twisted machinations of Iran Contra.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
At the end of the day, Robe couldn't say no,
and he signed on to adapt Bradley's book into a
television movie event. He and Bradley would collaborate on the
screenplay while Bradley finished up his reporting. CBS wanted them
to move fast. If they didn't, the Guts and Glory
movie could end up being just one in a sea
of Iran Contra adaptations.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
No matter which direction you look these days, you'll be
facing North. Oliver North has been all over television, and
he's soon to be all over everything else.
Speaker 9 (07:12):
We heard rumblings of other networks thinking about doing Oliver North.
If your subject is a hot topic, you want to
get on the air as quickly as you can. We
looked at a lot of pressure in that way.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Among Robes would be competitors was a producer named Jay Weston,
who had announced his own plans to make an Oliver
North biopic. North was reportedly a fan of Heartbreak Ridge,
Weston's nineteen eighty six movies, starring Clint Eastwood as a
fictional marine who leads a platoon during the invasion of Grenada.
Speaker 9 (07:41):
And an assistant in operation of the Island of Grenada
to rescue American citizens.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That the Island of what Grenada?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
For the title, Weston was considering reluctant hero, American hero
gone wrong and carrying patriotism too far. But Weston's project
never made it off the ground. In September of nineteen
eighty seven, he told a reporter that it had all
become too complicated and that life was too short to
(08:10):
do that tough a project. Plus, with the congressional hearings
over and the stream of shocking revelations dying down, Weston
felt like the Iran contra story was getting kind of
played out. In his opinion, there would have to be
another twist, some other development that could recapture public interest.
One thing that could generate that kind of heat, Weston said,
(08:33):
was if Ali North got indicted. I'm Leon Napok from
Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
This is fiasco Iran contrast. Welcome to the National Security Council. Agent.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Are you ready to do battle for the administration?
Speaker 10 (08:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 9 (08:50):
On the set we would have disagreements, so.
Speaker 10 (08:52):
You're right about the job.
Speaker 7 (08:53):
Miss Paul sawn Hall.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
A lot of people probably thought she was a gold digger,
a bimbo. I didn't want to portray her that way.
Speaker 11 (09:00):
His involvement in the Iran Contra arms deal has left
him without a job, but with a new responsibility as
Conservative spokesman.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
I fight any way I can fly.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Episode seven, Hollywood, How Hollywood tried to turn Iran Contra
into a movie while Oliver North tried to avoid going
to prison.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
As you heard in the previous episode, there were three
major investigations into Iran Contra, the Tower Commission, the Congressional Inquiry,
and the criminal probe of the Independent Council Lawrence Walsh.
By nineteen eighty eight, the first two had completed their
work and only Walsh was still chugging along.
Speaker 12 (09:49):
Independent Council Lawrence Walsh is saying nothing. Since his appointment
fourteen months ago, he thirty lawyers and fifty investigators have
poured over hundreds of thousands of documents and conducted at
least fifteen hundred witness interviews.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
A federal grand jury in Washington has indicted four men
for try to help the Contras at a time when
Congress had forbidden it.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
On March sixteenth, nineteen eighty eight, a grand jury brought
indictments against Oliver North, former National Security Advisor John Poindexter,
and Richard Secord, who oversaw logistics for the Contra resupply
operation and the Iran weapons sales.
Speaker 13 (10:24):
All are accused of having participated in the illegal diversion
of Iranian arm sales profits to the Contras and Nicaragua.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North was named in sixteen counts ranging
from conspiracy to obstruction of Congress.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
The charges included making false statements to Congress in response
to early inquiries about the Contra War, obstructing the Attorney
General's weekend investigation into the Iran arm sales by shredding
official documents, and defrauding the IRS in the course of
fundraising for the Contras. Those charges could plausibly be defended
as efforts to protect the President's foreign policy agenda, but
(10:57):
a few of the other charges Walsh brought against North
were harder to frame as acts of government service. During
their investigation, some prosecutors in the Independent Council's Office suspected
that North had somehow enriched himself as part of the
Iran Contra scheme. Their thinking was with all that money
slashing around from the arm sales and the donations to
(11:17):
the contras, North could have found a way to line
his own pockets. As one member of the Walsh team
reportedly told his colleagues, no jury will convict North unless
they think he's a crook. In the end, the best
evidence of self dealing Walsh found was a security fence
that North had installed at his family home and which
Richard Seacord had paid for through one of the Swiss
(11:39):
bank accounts associated with Irankantra.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
A gift by Sea Cord of the security systems.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
The acceptance by North of the security system.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
The fence cost thirteen eight hundred dollars. Walsh characterized it
as an illegal gratuity and alleged that North had tried
to cover it up after the Iran Contra scandal broke.
Speaker 9 (12:00):
North's obstruction of our investigation by developing false documents to
conceal his acceptance.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Of that gift.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
North had allegedly gone onto a department store and used
a floor model typewriter to fabricate a pair of backdated
letters in which he discussed paying for the fence with
the contractor who had installed it.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Meanwhile, the Walsh investigation continues, which could mean more charges
against those named today or against others in the Iran
Contra affair.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
The prospect of criminal trials for North, Poindexter, and Seacort
invited a host of new questions about how the Iran
Contra scandal would play out. Would Reagan be called to testify,
and if any of the accused were found guilty, would
they be pardoned. Reagan downplayed that possibility, but he made
clear that he was standing by Oliver North.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I still think Haley North is a hero. And at
the other hand, in any talk about what I might
do or pardons and so forth, I think with the
case before the courts, that's something I can't discuss now.
But I just have to believe that they're going to
be found innocent, because I don't think they were guilty
of any law breaking or any crime.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
In the meantime, Ali North was beginning his second act.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
While awaiting trial, North has been giving speeches. Last week,
this one in Virginia, raised eighteen thousand dollars for his defense.
Speaker 10 (13:23):
I don't believe that there's anything wrong with faithfulness to
this country or its ideals.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
North started touring the country, meeting his fans and raising
money for his legal defense fund. In the process, he
morphed into something between a politician and a motivational speaker.
Speaker 9 (13:39):
Friends of Oliver North paid twenty dollars each to listen
to a pep talk this.
Speaker 11 (13:42):
Morning, one hundred and fifty dollars each to hear the
man who fought Congress. They love him and his cause.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
That the man's a hero.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I wish we had more likely help.
Speaker 12 (13:52):
He's just what we need in America, somebody who stand
up and protect our land.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
North was invited to address Washington's football team before the
Super Bowl. He also delivered the commencement speech at Liberty University,
where he was introduced by the school's founder, Jerry Folwell.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
The first questions always ask, why are you having an
indicted man to speak to the students at Liberty University.
I said, well, we serve a savior who was indicted.
Speaker 11 (14:18):
His involvement in the Iran Contra arms deal has left
him without a job, but with a new responsibility as
conservative spokesman.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
With the nineteen eighty eight election approaching, North became one
of the most popular spokesman for publican candidates.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
On the campaign trail.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Pretty soon people were wondering when Ali North might make
a run for office himself.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
There has been talk of a political career for Oliver North,
even though he has no experience and no money. North
is a hero to conservatives. He is now free to
speak publicly and to criticize Congress. Political careers have been built.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Unless While North traveled and prepared for his trial, Mike
Robe was hard at work on the script for Guts
and Glory. One of the questions he was asking himself
was how do you craft a multi layered character or
out of someone most viewers are going to either love
or hate before they even see the movie.
Speaker 9 (15:15):
The problem that I had with Oliver North as I
got into his story was that what he believed with
all his heart was in the beginning understandable and somewhat admirable,
But he was done in in his passion and his
(15:35):
failure to have perspective on those acts which were illegal
and horribly detrimental to the process of government in the US.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
There was another problem too. Even though the real life
story all over North was full of exciting scenes and details,
from a screenwriter's perspective, it was missing something crucial.
Speaker 9 (16:00):
One of the challenges of writing the script was to
give voice to an opposing, ethical, moral, legal point of
view when it came to the Shenanigans that North was
carrying off.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
As Robe saw it, Oliver North needed a foil, someone
to challenge his point of view, to generate conflict and
introduce a moral counterweight. The trouble was Robe didn't think
that person actually existed in the Reagan White House. Bud
McFarlane apparently didn't fit the bill.
Speaker 9 (16:34):
And I resorted, out of necessity, frankly, to a much
used docu drama device called the composite character, and I
named him Aaron Sykes.
Speaker 11 (16:48):
I'm looking for, mister Sykes. Oh that's me, Oliver North, reporting, Sir,
Major US.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Marines, Aaron Sikes, Tiger, Princeton University. Welcome to the National
Security Council, Major.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
And I made him a colleague of Oliver Norse at
the National Security Council, a man who fictionally knew Oliver
from most of his career and became the voice of
reason when it came to judging Oliver North's misdeeds. Listen,
ALEI for those maps for the contras.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yep, But I thought we weren't allowed to pass on
any kind of military intelligence.
Speaker 10 (17:28):
Well, the CIA can't, I can't.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
But that's not what we're.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hearing, boy, Aaron Sykes.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Robe created a White House official with misgivings, someone who
is willing to push back against North.
Speaker 9 (17:42):
There's a line I remember at one point when North
is facing expulsion from the NSC. North is our right,
and he he says to Aaron Sykes regarding all of
his transgressions, he doesn't care because the end justifies the means.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
The end justifies the means.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Damn right.
Speaker 9 (18:05):
And Sykes retorts, but that's not what America's about, colonel.
But you don't understand. America is about the means.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Wake up and smell the dog crap, Aaron. We're fighting
for democracy down.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
There by keeping it a secret from democracy here. Sell
that somewhere else, colonel.
Speaker 9 (18:22):
And that's the way in which Aaron Sykes became the
conscience of Oliver North, but also the rebuttal from so
many Americans who were polarized and critical of what North represented.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
With a tight deadline from CBS, Robe and his team
got started on the other major part of pre production,
finding the cast.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Once the mini series was announced, there was this national furor,
this big brujja over who should play Home? Are there
crazy things like al Pacino should play Oliver North or
vera facet is obviously Von Hall. That was very popular.
I kind of recall, however, there wasn't quite as big
(19:07):
as a flood of interest in playing Oliver North himself,
which is kind of ironic and maybe that can be
chalked up to liberal Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
The production team eventually founded There Oliver North in One
David Keith, a Tennessee farm boy turned up and coming actor.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Who was probably best known at the time in his
role as Richard Gear's buddy and officer and a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'm just not like you, Mayo.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I can't shit all over people and just sleep like
a baby at night.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
And I was fine with that choice. I was fine
with David as an actor. I think he was okay
with me as a director. What I didn't know was
that he was a staunch conservative Republican and I wasn't.
Speaker 8 (19:50):
Maybe bullshit to you, buddy, but I wasn't raised that way.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
One of the most sought after roles in Guts and
Glory was that of Fawn Hall North secretary who had
testified before Congress about shredding documents and smuggling them out
of North's office in her clothes.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
When I first moved to Hollywood, I had kind of
a little career going playing older actresses in younger flashback scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's Amy Stock. She had started her career playing the
younger version of Joan van Ark's character on the soap
opera Notts Landing.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
You know, I was very generic blonde, and so when
Fawn Hall came around, Yeah, the resemblance was pretty striking.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Stock had just wrapped an arc on the hit drama
Dallas when she landed the audition for Guts and Glory.
Speaker 6 (20:38):
I went for the initial call, and I'm pretty sure
it was either the shredding scene between Oliver North and
Fawn Hall. Are you sure? Hell?
Speaker 9 (20:50):
No.
Speaker 10 (20:52):
I wanted to show this to my grandkids, but I've
never disobeyed an order in my wife, or was.
Speaker 6 (20:58):
The interview when she walks into oliverant North's office.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
So you're right about the job, miss Hall.
Speaker 11 (21:06):
Fawn Hall, Miss Hall, if you'd like to come aboard,
I'd be on.
Speaker 6 (21:11):
And then I was called back basically because I looked
so much like her. I'd like to think is because
I was a great actress. But you know, I think
it was morcause I looked a lot like her and
then got the part and was.
Speaker 12 (21:25):
Thrilled Major North's office.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
And I immediately said, I want to meet Vawn Hall.
I want to talk with her. I want to get
close to her as I possibly can get about her
story and her side of things.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Stock wanted to do Faun Hall justice, both because it
was her first time playing a real person and because
she felt Hall's portrayal in the media had been rather
one dimensional.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Well, I'm just going to say it. She came across
as kind of shallow, you know, like a glory seeker
in the newspaper, and she had this tiny, minor role
important in what happened as it turns out. But a
lot of people felt that she was trying to promote
herself to during this whole thing, and I didn't want
(22:13):
her to come across that way, so I tried to
tried to make her as honest as possible, that she
truly believed that what she was doing was right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Stock tried to schedule a meeting with Hall to get
a better idea of her experience and motivations, but Hall
did not want to talk. The rumor was that she
had hoped to play herself in the movie, but that
idea was ultimately shot down. As Robes said at the time,
it would have blurred the line between the illusion of
reality and reality itself. Stock did not give up. She
(22:46):
knew that Vaughan Hall had moved to Los Angeles after
her star turn in the Iran Contra hearings. She had
started hanging out with celebrities and was said to be
engaged to Rob Low. As it happened, Stock Scutson Glory
co star David Keith ran in the same circles as Hall,
so Stock asked him to put in a word for her,
and one night it seemed like he was going to
(23:07):
make the introduction.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
We all met at the Chateau Marmont. David was going
to this rave which were very popular back in the
late eighties, and so he invited us to come along,
and he said, Fawn Hall will be there, and I went, oh, great,
I would just love to even meet her, So let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
The party was in the Hollywood Hills. The guest list
included celebrities from the A List to the Z List,
and the music was loud.
Speaker 6 (23:34):
Some kind of eighties pop crap, you know, the stuff
that goes boom jiga, boom jaga book, you know, and
you just can't really think. And there are a lot
of people around, and one of them was Madonna, and
she was sitting at David's table. And so I got
to meet Madonna and it was great. In Fawn Hall,
she was there. I walked up to her and I said, Hi,
my name is Amy Stock and I will be playing
(23:56):
you in Guts and Glory. And honestly, she gave me
a look. I don't even remember her saying hello. Necessary
she just kind of walked off.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
With that Stock let it go. Hall just wasn't going
to talk to her. Thirty years later, she declined to
talk to me too. Guts and Glory started filming in
Los Angeles in the winter of nineteen eighty nine, at
almost the same exact time, the trial of Oliver North
was getting under way in a Washington courtroom.
Speaker 14 (24:41):
After nearly a year of legal wrangling, the trial of
former White House aid Oliver North began today in Federal
District Court in Washington.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
From the outset, North's attorney and the Independent Council's office
were locked in a procedural battle over evidence. The fact
that North and Poindexter's immunized testimony before Congress could not
be used against them meant that Lawrence Walsh and his
prosecutors could not rely on it in any way while
making their case. That didn't just mean the prosecutor couldn't
(25:10):
refer to it. It meant that none of their witnesses
could either.
Speaker 14 (25:13):
North's attorney's arguments that grand jury witnesses had been exposed
to the highly publicized congressional testimony.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
The judge in North's trial instructed witnesses not to rely
on any information they'd learned from his immunized congressional testimony,
but that was hard to enforce, and there was always
a chance something it admissible would slip out. That created
a huge risk for Walsh's prosecution. It also presented an
opportunity for north legal team should they find themselves having
(25:41):
to appeal an unfavorable verdict. Instead of a military uniform,
North wore a simple blue suit to the first day
of his trial. Sitting next to his lawyer, Brendan Sullivan,
he filled multiple yellow legal pads with notes. The trial
was covered by all the major networks on.
Speaker 14 (25:58):
The witness stand today former Reagan administration Attorney General Edwin Mees.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Today's witness was Adolpho Cooleero, a rebel leader who described
North as quote the savior of the contrast.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Oliver.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
North's former White House Secretary, Vaughn Hall, came to court
today to testify at her former bosses trial. Haul also
total of the intense atmosphere in North's office and now
he would occasionally break the tension with jokes, including some
about how he may end up going to prison. She said,
he's a man with a wonderful sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Meanwhile, in California, the cast and crew of Guts and
Glory were trying to make their deadline. They had about
forty days to shoot the entire film.
Speaker 9 (26:40):
And what happens when you do these things is that
the network had already slotted the mini series for May sweeps.
That's the period of time when the network is judge
on its ratings. So we were pushed. We ended up
(27:00):
shooting the entire film in the Los Angeles area with
just two days at the end of the schedule in Washington,
d C. To pick up backdrops that would ground us
in real world.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Robe and his crew arrived in Washington. A few weeks
into North trial. At one point they were shooting a
scene of the Jefferson Memorial less than two miles from
the Federal courthouse. In the scene, Oliver North tries to
recruit Richard Secord to run the Contrary Supply Operation. Director
wants you, General, and your country needs you.
Speaker 13 (27:35):
I'm a businessman now, and this is a business proposition
with the usual markup the CIA is.
Speaker 15 (27:41):
Making up for.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Writing in The New York Times, Maureen Dowd described it
as a collision of art and life being played out
back to the future style. By this point, the relationship
between Mike Robe and David Keith had become strained. As
it turned out their political differences placed them at odds
on the question of who Oliver North was and how
he should be portrayed in the movie.
Speaker 9 (28:03):
David liked, essentially that North said what he believed, and
believed what he said and acted on it.
Speaker 10 (28:11):
Now, once again, the same gang of reds are establishing
a potential nuclear base right in our own hemisphere.
Speaker 11 (28:17):
In front of us. Mister President, We're not ready to.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Lick a pissant islands or what's become of us.
Speaker 9 (28:26):
There was a period in a scene where Oliver North
was hospitalized during a rocky time in his marriage, during
the time he had come back from Vietnam, and he
was hospitalized for emotional.
Speaker 13 (28:41):
Stress, emotional distress, whatever that means.
Speaker 9 (28:48):
That's documented. But when I tried to get David to
behave as someone undergoing emotional stress, he felt I was
trying to make Oliver North look crazy, and I tried
to say, David, that's why he's in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
David Keith, who didn't respond to interview requests for this podcast,
told People magazine that he had tried to make North
more of a hero and Robe had tried to make
him less of one. We probably wound up with something
around the truth.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
In the end. I kind of felt like David's defense
of Norse ideology kind of fit the character. I mean,
that's kind of who Oliver North was.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 7 (29:42):
The Oliver North jury began debating criminal charges today against
the former Reagan White House aid with strong ties.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
After eight long weeks, Oliver North's trial began winding down.
On April twenty first, nineteen eighty nine, the jury began
its deliberations.
Speaker 13 (29:57):
The fate of Oliver North now rests with the jury
in his charge to the jury.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
In the midst of those deliberations, the cast and crew
of Guts and Glory were in the final days of
promotional blitz before the premiere of their movie.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
David Keith is Oliver North, Peter Boyle Is, John Poindexter,
Amy stock pointon is Bonn Hall.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
David Keith appeared on the cover of TV Guide in
a white marine dress uniform. Journalist Ben Bradley Jr. Went
on Fresh Air with Terry Gross to talk about the
adaptation of his book.
Speaker 16 (30:24):
You describe in your book the phone call that President
Reagan made to Oliver North, and he ended, according to report,
this phone conversation by saying to North, I'd say this
is going to make a great movie one day. I
think it's kind of funny that your book is actually
becoming the first movie about Oliver North.
Speaker 10 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 15 (30:42):
And actually it's even funnier that that very scene is
in the movie, which when I saw it makes me laugh.
It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, I guess, and
I'm satisfied that the film will do the book and
history justice.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
On April thirtieth, nine days after jury deliberations began, Part
one of Guts and Glory premiered on CBS.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
As good men to risk their lives for Notted, you
fight to win.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It was the thirty first most watched program of the week,
behind Bionic Showdown, The Return of the six Million Dollar
Man and The Bionic Woman. The second half of Guts
and Glory was set to air a few days later.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
A secret operation explodes, but taking the heat could destroy
Oliver North.
Speaker 11 (31:32):
They've done anything criminal.
Speaker 12 (31:34):
The stunning conclusion of Guts and Glory tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Reviews for Guts and Glory were not positive. It is
fitting that television is rushing to tell North's story before
it is concluded, wrote a TV critic for the San
Diego Union Tribune, and particularly fitting that a story so
confusing has become even more muddied when told in a
television drama.
Speaker 9 (31:56):
I think some of the critics didn't quite know what
to make of it. They had their expectations. The ratings
in the ann weren't particularly great.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Critics were especially harsh about a scene in which Oliver
North flew a plane through a firefight in Central America
to rescue a group of soldiers. Get the Wounded, Get
thee In his book, Ben Bradley Junior had noted that
the story may have been apocryphal because no one had
ever heard of North being able to fly. But the
(32:25):
main problem, according to a review in The Buffalo Times,
was that America seemed to be Ali to death already.
Speaker 9 (32:32):
I think the story had evaporated by the time we
actually got on the air, even though we got on
the air as quickly as we could. I mean, people
had had enough of Oliver North. One way or the other.
It had been prick Asi and fried and stewed Ali Mania.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
It seemed was not a phenomenon. It was a fad.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
The jury now has spoken and answered the question of
Oliver North's guilt in the Arms for Iran?
Speaker 8 (33:04):
What happened to the money case?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
On Thursday May fourth, nineteen eighty nine, two days after
And Glory finished airing on CBS, the jury in North
trial returned to verdict.
Speaker 10 (33:15):
Leading the news.
Speaker 13 (33:16):
This Thursday, a jury found Oliver North guilty on three
of twelve counts. The guilties game on charges of obstructing Congress,
destroying government documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity in the
form of a security system at his hall.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
On all the other charges, the jury found North not guilty,
an indication that they didn't see him as a ringleader
or even a rogue operator.
Speaker 14 (33:38):
But it seemed to be saying, we're not going to
throw the book at him.
Speaker 8 (33:41):
This was the low man on the totem pole.
Speaker 14 (33:43):
So well, we agree he did something wrong, but we're
not going to buy all of it.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
We're not going to pile on.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
North immediately appealed to verdict and took the opportunity to
address the media.
Speaker 10 (33:53):
Just a very brief statement, that is that today's verdict
by the jury here in Washington is a partial vindication
for what has been for my family in me a
very long and difficult process. We will continue this battle.
We will be fully vindicated. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Guts and Glory ended up being the first adaptation of
Iran Contra to be released, and strangely, it was kind
of the last.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Though there have been a few feature.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Films about the Contra war, Hollywood has failed, at least
so far, to produce one definitive account of the whole saga.
There is no All the President's Men for Iran Contra,
and though Oliver North has held on to various forms
of relevance over the years, by appearing on Fox News
leading the NRA and running unsuccessfully for a Senate seat.
(34:47):
I think it's fair to say that he is not
endured as an object of fascination. I've been trying to
figure out why why North didn't last, why Iran Contra
didn't last, why Guts and Glory ended up being Hollywood's
only attempt to capture the story. Mike Robe thinks a
big part of the problem is Oliver North himself.
Speaker 9 (35:08):
Ultimately, American people judged that their est was no complexity
or intellect or reason to keep following this one dimensional marine.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
Frankly, a marine does what it takes.
Speaker 11 (35:28):
I fight any way I can.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Bite, scratch lie, because in the end, America's worth it.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
The Washington Post review of Guts and Glory summed it
up nicely, saying that North, as portrayed by David Keith,
did not live up to the status of tragic hero
because his flaws were mundane and his heroic self aggrandizing.
I think that's true about Oliver North as portrayed by
Oliver North too. Even when he published his memoir in
nineteen ninety one, North came across as a man without
(35:58):
much capacity for self doubt or inner conflict about the
events of Iran Contra. After the sugar High of Alimania,
it just wasn't that much fun to keep thinking about him,
so he faded away. There's another theory I've heard about
(36:20):
why Iran Contra isn't more prominent in our collective memory.
The theory is basically that the ending sucked. Instead of
crescendoing into impeachment proceedings or prison time, Iran Contra evaporated gradually.
One year after his trial, North conviction was overturned because
of concerns over witness testimony being tainted by immunized statements.
(36:42):
As for Ronald Reagan, he got to write off into
the sunset as a triumphant two term president, succeeded by
his VP, George H. W.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Bush.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
As it turned out, Bush had some ideas of his
own about how Iran Contra should end. On the next
and final episode to Fiasco, the Independent Council's Office tries
(37:13):
to finish its work on Iran Contra while contending with
two presidents at once.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
The three leading television channels ran the story of the
Vice President and all help brokeloves.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
For a list of books, articles, and documentaries, we used
in our research.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Follow the link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Fiasco is a production of Prolog Projects and it's distributed
by Pushkin Industries. Shows produced by Andrew Parsons, Madeline kaplan
Ula Kulpa and me Leon Mayfock. Our editor was Camilla Hammer.
Our researcher was Francis Carr, with additional archival research from
Caitlin Nicholas. Our music is by Nick Silvester. Our theme
(37:56):
song is by Spatial Relations. Our artwork is by Teddy
Blanks at Chips and y Audio, mixed by Rob Buyers,
Michael Rayfield and Johnny Vince Evans. Copyright council provided by
Peter Yassi at Yass Butler Po Thanks to Truechivmovies, dot Net,
Eddie Brandt, Saturday, Mattinee, Ann Roe, Robert Papazian, Jim Hirsch,
(38:18):
Jay Weston, Michelle McGonagall, the Writers Guild Foundation, the Paley Center,
as well as Sam Graham Felson, Katya kum Kova and
SIREA Shockley Special. Thanks to Luminary and thank you for listening.
(38:44):
Binge the entire season of Fiasco Iran Contra ad free
by subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the Fiasco
show page on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm
slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes,
full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all Pushkin
podcasts
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The day Oliver North was fired from his job at
the White House, Ronald Reagan called him on the phone
and told him he was a national hero. It was
a brief conversation, but Reagan found time for some gallows humor,
telling North he thought Iran Contra would make a great
movie someday. Reagan, a former Hollywood actor with nearly thirty
years of experience in the movie business, probably didn't realize
(00:49):
how quickly someday would come.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hollywood's already growing up its wait list for a TV
mini series What's Got all the elements.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Of the health. It's a very dramatic story. It's complex,
but it's a dramatic story.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Ali North was the rare star witness and a political
scandal who had actual star quality. Norman Lear, the creator
of All in the Family at good times, marvel at
his stage presence. He gets tears in his eyes. Lear said,
TV eats up moist eyed people.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
There were times when this career military man demonstrated a
brilliant gift for using the media. Through the day, across
the country, Americans watched as network soap operas were replaced
by Oliver North.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Even before the Iran Contra hearings ended in the summer
of nineteen eighty seven. Journalists and producers in Hollywood were
talking about who should play North on the big screen if.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
They ever get around to making the movie of the
contra hearings. Here in Hollywood, Oliver North look alike Treat
Williams would seem to be the front runner for the
leading role.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
At one point during north testimony, Prankster's in Los Angeles
covered up the H and the Hollywood sign so that
it said olliy would.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
An anonymous scholar said he made the change quote not
to condone North's actions, but to give expression to the
nationwide wave of Ali mania.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
The scandal had everything you could want in a blockbuster
international intrigue, communists, bad guys, secret rons abroad. He was
an action movie, a legal drama, and a spy thriller
all at once. And at the center of it stood
a dashing, charismatic man of conviction, a perfect cipher for
American attitudes about government, patriotism, and democracy.
Speaker 7 (02:25):
Is Oliver North, a hero who kept the Nicaraguan resistance
alive after Congress had forbidden it, or a zealot subverted
the system by repeatedly lying about his activities and shredding
the evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The expectation in publishing circles was that North would eventually
be able to get seven figures for his autobiography, which
could in theory be optioned for TV and film. But
that could take years, and producers wanted to capitalize on
the buzz as quickly as possible. That meant they'd have
to find their source material somewhere else, so they turned
to journalism.
Speaker 8 (02:55):
I felt that Iran Contra was a really important story,
really about a constitutional crisis.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
This is Ben Bradley Junior. He's the son of legendary
editor Ben Bradley, who Oversawtergate coverage at the Washington Post.
Speaker 8 (03:12):
You know, the ideologues in the Reagan administration used North
as an agent to circumvent the law.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Ben Bradley Junior was a reporter at the Boston Globe.
In February of nineteen eighty seven, it was announced that
he would chronicle the Iran Contra scandal in a book
called Guts and Glory.
Speaker 8 (03:32):
You know, he had sex appeal. North sort of a
do it yourself, a gung ho brand of patriotism and
making things happen, grabbing the bull by the horns. Exploiting
power vacuums and filling them. That's why I really chose
(03:53):
North as a vehicle to tell the story of Iran
Contra in this book.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Bradley was still working on Guts and Glory when an
outline of the book started circulating in La Mike Robe,
a producer and director, first heard about it from an
executive at CBS. Robe had recently produced a TV movie
for the network called Murder Ordained.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
Unmercifully and Without Compassion.
Speaker 9 (04:18):
Murder Ordained was very successful. I was sort of in
the good graces of CBS, and I was beginning to
think about what I wanted to do next. Ann Along
came Ali Maniel.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Robe worked in the increasingly popular genre known as the
docu drama, a kind of fictionalized nonfiction that, as Newsday
put it, gave viewers instant history the way a noodle
mix and hot water give us instant soup. Murder Ordained
was a prime example of the form. It was based
on the true story of a minister in Kansas who
was accused of killing his wife.
Speaker 8 (04:53):
It was a crime beyond belief, starring Terry Kinney Joe Bethwick.
Speaker 9 (05:00):
They were very popular at the time the networks were
looking for any extra boost and notoriety in sizzle that
could elevate the interest in their project above that of
their competition, and it became a whole new art form,
(05:22):
an original American art form.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Robe was intrigued by the idea of making a docudrama
out of the Oliver North story.
Speaker 9 (05:28):
I was fascinated by Oliver North from the get go.
I was a former military officer. I understood the pressures
he was operating under. I understood a lot of his attitude.
I wasn't sure if he was hiding something, but I
did feel he's a heck of a performer, and he
(05:48):
was rather spellbinding to watch.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
He is unquestionably telegenic. You'd perhaps say that the force
is with him. He is a natural.
Speaker 10 (05:57):
I was working desperately to keep the hostages alive. Good grief,
We'd had this stuff all over the newspapers. The Israelis
were calling me every half hour.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And I was Robe did have some reservations.
Speaker 9 (06:10):
From the very get go. My problem as a dramatist,
my challenge was how do you make this terribly convoluted
scheme dramatic for a mass television audience in a way
that they can come to care about someone in the
(06:33):
show and to understand the very twisted machinations of Iran Contra.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
At the end of the day, Robe couldn't say no,
and he signed on to adapt Bradley's book into a
television movie event. He and Bradley would collaborate on the
screenplay while Bradley finished up his reporting. CBS wanted them
to move fast. If they didn't, the Guts and Glory
movie could end up being just one in a sea
of Iran Contra adaptations.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
No matter which direction you look these days, you'll be
facing North. Oliver North has been all over television, and
he's soon to be all over everything else.
Speaker 9 (07:12):
We heard rumblings of other networks thinking about doing Oliver North.
If your subject is a hot topic, you want to
get on the air as quickly as you can. We
looked at a lot of pressure in that way.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Among Robes would be competitors was a producer named Jay Weston,
who had announced his own plans to make an Oliver
North biopic. North was reportedly a fan of Heartbreak Ridge,
Weston's nineteen eighty six movies, starring Clint Eastwood as a
fictional marine who leads a platoon during the invasion of Grenada.
Speaker 9 (07:41):
And an assistant in operation of the Island of Grenada
to rescue American citizens.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That the Island of what Grenada?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
For the title, Weston was considering reluctant hero, American hero
gone wrong and carrying patriotism too far. But Weston's project
never made it off the ground. In September of nineteen
eighty seven, he told a reporter that it had all
become too complicated and that life was too short to
(08:10):
do that tough a project. Plus, with the congressional hearings
over and the stream of shocking revelations dying down, Weston
felt like the Iran contra story was getting kind of
played out. In his opinion, there would have to be
another twist, some other development that could recapture public interest.
One thing that could generate that kind of heat, Weston said,
(08:33):
was if Ali North got indicted. I'm Leon Napok from
Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
This is fiasco Iran contrast. Welcome to the National Security Council. Agent.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Are you ready to do battle for the administration?
Speaker 10 (08:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 9 (08:50):
On the set we would have disagreements, so.
Speaker 10 (08:52):
You're right about the job.
Speaker 7 (08:53):
Miss Paul sawn Hall.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
A lot of people probably thought she was a gold digger,
a bimbo. I didn't want to portray her that way.
Speaker 11 (09:00):
His involvement in the Iran Contra arms deal has left
him without a job, but with a new responsibility as
Conservative spokesman.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
I fight any way I can fly.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Episode seven, Hollywood, How Hollywood tried to turn Iran Contra
into a movie while Oliver North tried to avoid going
to prison.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
As you heard in the previous episode, there were three
major investigations into Iran Contra, the Tower Commission, the Congressional Inquiry,
and the criminal probe of the Independent Council Lawrence Walsh.
By nineteen eighty eight, the first two had completed their
work and only Walsh was still chugging along.
Speaker 12 (09:49):
Independent Council Lawrence Walsh is saying nothing. Since his appointment
fourteen months ago, he thirty lawyers and fifty investigators have
poured over hundreds of thousands of documents and conducted at
least fifteen hundred witness interviews.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
A federal grand jury in Washington has indicted four men
for try to help the Contras at a time when
Congress had forbidden it.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
On March sixteenth, nineteen eighty eight, a grand jury brought
indictments against Oliver North, former National Security Advisor John Poindexter,
and Richard Secord, who oversaw logistics for the Contra resupply
operation and the Iran weapons sales.
Speaker 13 (10:24):
All are accused of having participated in the illegal diversion
of Iranian arm sales profits to the Contras and Nicaragua.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North was named in sixteen counts ranging
from conspiracy to obstruction of Congress.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
The charges included making false statements to Congress in response
to early inquiries about the Contra War, obstructing the Attorney
General's weekend investigation into the Iran arm sales by shredding
official documents, and defrauding the IRS in the course of
fundraising for the Contras. Those charges could plausibly be defended
as efforts to protect the President's foreign policy agenda, but
(10:57):
a few of the other charges Walsh brought against North
were harder to frame as acts of government service. During
their investigation, some prosecutors in the Independent Council's Office suspected
that North had somehow enriched himself as part of the
Iran Contra scheme. Their thinking was with all that money
slashing around from the arm sales and the donations to
(11:17):
the contras, North could have found a way to line
his own pockets. As one member of the Walsh team
reportedly told his colleagues, no jury will convict North unless
they think he's a crook. In the end, the best
evidence of self dealing Walsh found was a security fence
that North had installed at his family home and which
Richard Seacord had paid for through one of the Swiss
(11:39):
bank accounts associated with Irankantra.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
A gift by Sea Cord of the security systems.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
The acceptance by North of the security system.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
The fence cost thirteen eight hundred dollars. Walsh characterized it
as an illegal gratuity and alleged that North had tried
to cover it up after the Iran Contra scandal broke.
Speaker 9 (12:00):
North's obstruction of our investigation by developing false documents to
conceal his acceptance.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Of that gift.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
North had allegedly gone onto a department store and used
a floor model typewriter to fabricate a pair of backdated
letters in which he discussed paying for the fence with
the contractor who had installed it.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Meanwhile, the Walsh investigation continues, which could mean more charges
against those named today or against others in the Iran
Contra affair.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
The prospect of criminal trials for North, Poindexter, and Seacort
invited a host of new questions about how the Iran
Contra scandal would play out. Would Reagan be called to testify,
and if any of the accused were found guilty, would
they be pardoned. Reagan downplayed that possibility, but he made
clear that he was standing by Oliver North.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I still think Haley North is a hero. And at
the other hand, in any talk about what I might
do or pardons and so forth, I think with the
case before the courts, that's something I can't discuss now.
But I just have to believe that they're going to
be found innocent, because I don't think they were guilty
of any law breaking or any crime.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
In the meantime, Ali North was beginning his second act.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
While awaiting trial, North has been giving speeches. Last week,
this one in Virginia, raised eighteen thousand dollars for his defense.
Speaker 10 (13:23):
I don't believe that there's anything wrong with faithfulness to
this country or its ideals.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
North started touring the country, meeting his fans and raising
money for his legal defense fund. In the process, he
morphed into something between a politician and a motivational speaker.
Speaker 9 (13:39):
Friends of Oliver North paid twenty dollars each to listen
to a pep talk this.
Speaker 11 (13:42):
Morning, one hundred and fifty dollars each to hear the
man who fought Congress. They love him and his cause.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
That the man's a hero.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I wish we had more likely help.
Speaker 12 (13:52):
He's just what we need in America, somebody who stand
up and protect our land.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
North was invited to address Washington's football team before the
Super Bowl. He also delivered the commencement speech at Liberty University,
where he was introduced by the school's founder, Jerry Folwell.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
The first questions always ask, why are you having an
indicted man to speak to the students at Liberty University.
I said, well, we serve a savior who was indicted.
Speaker 11 (14:18):
His involvement in the Iran Contra arms deal has left
him without a job, but with a new responsibility as
conservative spokesman.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
With the nineteen eighty eight election approaching, North became one
of the most popular spokesman for publican candidates.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
On the campaign trail.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Pretty soon people were wondering when Ali North might make
a run for office himself.
Speaker 7 (14:38):
There has been talk of a political career for Oliver North,
even though he has no experience and no money. North
is a hero to conservatives. He is now free to
speak publicly and to criticize Congress. Political careers have been built.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Unless While North traveled and prepared for his trial, Mike
Robe was hard at work on the script for Guts
and Glory. One of the questions he was asking himself
was how do you craft a multi layered character or
out of someone most viewers are going to either love
or hate before they even see the movie.
Speaker 9 (15:15):
The problem that I had with Oliver North as I
got into his story was that what he believed with
all his heart was in the beginning understandable and somewhat admirable,
But he was done in in his passion and his
(15:35):
failure to have perspective on those acts which were illegal
and horribly detrimental to the process of government in the US.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
There was another problem too. Even though the real life
story all over North was full of exciting scenes and details,
from a screenwriter's perspective, it was missing something crucial.
Speaker 9 (16:00):
One of the challenges of writing the script was to
give voice to an opposing, ethical, moral, legal point of
view when it came to the Shenanigans that North was
carrying off.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
As Robe saw it, Oliver North needed a foil, someone
to challenge his point of view, to generate conflict and
introduce a moral counterweight. The trouble was Robe didn't think
that person actually existed in the Reagan White House. Bud
McFarlane apparently didn't fit the bill.
Speaker 9 (16:34):
And I resorted, out of necessity, frankly, to a much
used docu drama device called the composite character, and I
named him Aaron Sykes.
Speaker 11 (16:48):
I'm looking for, mister Sykes. Oh that's me, Oliver North, reporting, Sir,
Major US.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Marines, Aaron Sikes, Tiger, Princeton University. Welcome to the National
Security Council, Major.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
And I made him a colleague of Oliver Norse at
the National Security Council, a man who fictionally knew Oliver
from most of his career and became the voice of
reason when it came to judging Oliver North's misdeeds. Listen,
ALEI for those maps for the contras.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yep, But I thought we weren't allowed to pass on
any kind of military intelligence.
Speaker 10 (17:28):
Well, the CIA can't, I can't.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
But that's not what we're.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hearing, boy, Aaron Sykes.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Robe created a White House official with misgivings, someone who
is willing to push back against North.
Speaker 9 (17:42):
There's a line I remember at one point when North
is facing expulsion from the NSC. North is our right,
and he he says to Aaron Sykes regarding all of
his transgressions, he doesn't care because the end justifies the means.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
The end justifies the means.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Damn right.
Speaker 9 (18:05):
And Sykes retorts, but that's not what America's about, colonel.
But you don't understand. America is about the means.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Wake up and smell the dog crap, Aaron. We're fighting
for democracy down.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
There by keeping it a secret from democracy here. Sell
that somewhere else, colonel.
Speaker 9 (18:22):
And that's the way in which Aaron Sykes became the
conscience of Oliver North, but also the rebuttal from so
many Americans who were polarized and critical of what North represented.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
With a tight deadline from CBS, Robe and his team
got started on the other major part of pre production,
finding the cast.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
Once the mini series was announced, there was this national furor,
this big brujja over who should play Home? Are there
crazy things like al Pacino should play Oliver North or
vera facet is obviously Von Hall. That was very popular.
I kind of recall, however, there wasn't quite as big
(19:07):
as a flood of interest in playing Oliver North himself,
which is kind of ironic and maybe that can be
chalked up to liberal Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
The production team eventually founded There Oliver North in One
David Keith, a Tennessee farm boy turned up and coming actor.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Who was probably best known at the time in his
role as Richard Gear's buddy and officer and a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'm just not like you, Mayo.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I can't shit all over people and just sleep like
a baby at night.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
And I was fine with that choice. I was fine
with David as an actor. I think he was okay
with me as a director. What I didn't know was
that he was a staunch conservative Republican and I wasn't.
Speaker 8 (19:50):
Maybe bullshit to you, buddy, but I wasn't raised that way.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
One of the most sought after roles in Guts and
Glory was that of Fawn Hall North secretary who had
testified before Congress about shredding documents and smuggling them out
of North's office in her clothes.
Speaker 6 (20:11):
When I first moved to Hollywood, I had kind of
a little career going playing older actresses in younger flashback scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's Amy Stock. She had started her career playing the
younger version of Joan van Ark's character on the soap
opera Notts Landing.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
You know, I was very generic blonde, and so when
Fawn Hall came around, Yeah, the resemblance was pretty striking.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Stock had just wrapped an arc on the hit drama
Dallas when she landed the audition for Guts and Glory.
Speaker 6 (20:38):
I went for the initial call, and I'm pretty sure
it was either the shredding scene between Oliver North and
Fawn Hall. Are you sure? Hell?
Speaker 9 (20:50):
No.
Speaker 10 (20:52):
I wanted to show this to my grandkids, but I've
never disobeyed an order in my wife, or was.
Speaker 6 (20:58):
The interview when she walks into oliverant North's office.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
So you're right about the job, miss Hall.
Speaker 11 (21:06):
Fawn Hall, Miss Hall, if you'd like to come aboard,
I'd be on.
Speaker 6 (21:11):
And then I was called back basically because I looked
so much like her. I'd like to think is because
I was a great actress. But you know, I think
it was morcause I looked a lot like her and
then got the part and was.
Speaker 12 (21:25):
Thrilled Major North's office.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
And I immediately said, I want to meet Vawn Hall.
I want to talk with her. I want to get
close to her as I possibly can get about her
story and her side of things.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Stock wanted to do Faun Hall justice, both because it
was her first time playing a real person and because
she felt Hall's portrayal in the media had been rather
one dimensional.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Well, I'm just going to say it. She came across
as kind of shallow, you know, like a glory seeker
in the newspaper, and she had this tiny, minor role
important in what happened as it turns out. But a
lot of people felt that she was trying to promote
herself to during this whole thing, and I didn't want
(22:13):
her to come across that way, so I tried to
tried to make her as honest as possible, that she
truly believed that what she was doing was right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Stock tried to schedule a meeting with Hall to get
a better idea of her experience and motivations, but Hall
did not want to talk. The rumor was that she
had hoped to play herself in the movie, but that
idea was ultimately shot down. As Robes said at the time,
it would have blurred the line between the illusion of
reality and reality itself. Stock did not give up. She
(22:46):
knew that Vaughan Hall had moved to Los Angeles after
her star turn in the Iran Contra hearings. She had
started hanging out with celebrities and was said to be
engaged to Rob Low. As it happened, Stock Scutson Glory
co star David Keith ran in the same circles as Hall,
so Stock asked him to put in a word for her,
and one night it seemed like he was going to
(23:07):
make the introduction.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
We all met at the Chateau Marmont. David was going
to this rave which were very popular back in the
late eighties, and so he invited us to come along,
and he said, Fawn Hall will be there, and I went, oh, great,
I would just love to even meet her, So let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
The party was in the Hollywood Hills. The guest list
included celebrities from the A List to the Z List,
and the music was loud.
Speaker 6 (23:34):
Some kind of eighties pop crap, you know, the stuff
that goes boom jiga, boom jaga book, you know, and
you just can't really think. And there are a lot
of people around, and one of them was Madonna, and
she was sitting at David's table. And so I got
to meet Madonna and it was great. In Fawn Hall,
she was there. I walked up to her and I said, Hi,
my name is Amy Stock and I will be playing
(23:56):
you in Guts and Glory. And honestly, she gave me
a look. I don't even remember her saying hello. Necessary
she just kind of walked off.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
With that Stock let it go. Hall just wasn't going
to talk to her. Thirty years later, she declined to
talk to me too. Guts and Glory started filming in
Los Angeles in the winter of nineteen eighty nine, at
almost the same exact time, the trial of Oliver North
was getting under way in a Washington courtroom.
Speaker 14 (24:41):
After nearly a year of legal wrangling, the trial of
former White House aid Oliver North began today in Federal
District Court in Washington.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
From the outset, North's attorney and the Independent Council's office
were locked in a procedural battle over evidence. The fact
that North and Poindexter's immunized testimony before Congress could not
be used against them meant that Lawrence Walsh and his
prosecutors could not rely on it in any way while
making their case. That didn't just mean the prosecutor couldn't
(25:10):
refer to it. It meant that none of their witnesses
could either.
Speaker 14 (25:13):
North's attorney's arguments that grand jury witnesses had been exposed
to the highly publicized congressional testimony.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
The judge in North's trial instructed witnesses not to rely
on any information they'd learned from his immunized congressional testimony,
but that was hard to enforce, and there was always
a chance something it admissible would slip out. That created
a huge risk for Walsh's prosecution. It also presented an
opportunity for north legal team should they find themselves having
(25:41):
to appeal an unfavorable verdict. Instead of a military uniform,
North wore a simple blue suit to the first day
of his trial. Sitting next to his lawyer, Brendan Sullivan,
he filled multiple yellow legal pads with notes. The trial
was covered by all the major networks on.
Speaker 14 (25:58):
The witness stand today former Reagan administration Attorney General Edwin Mees.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Today's witness was Adolpho Cooleero, a rebel leader who described
North as quote the savior of the contrast.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Oliver.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
North's former White House Secretary, Vaughn Hall, came to court
today to testify at her former bosses trial. Haul also
total of the intense atmosphere in North's office and now
he would occasionally break the tension with jokes, including some
about how he may end up going to prison. She said,
he's a man with a wonderful sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Meanwhile, in California, the cast and crew of Guts and
Glory were trying to make their deadline. They had about
forty days to shoot the entire film.
Speaker 9 (26:40):
And what happens when you do these things is that
the network had already slotted the mini series for May sweeps.
That's the period of time when the network is judge
on its ratings. So we were pushed. We ended up
(27:00):
shooting the entire film in the Los Angeles area with
just two days at the end of the schedule in Washington,
d C. To pick up backdrops that would ground us
in real world.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Robe and his crew arrived in Washington. A few weeks
into North trial. At one point they were shooting a
scene of the Jefferson Memorial less than two miles from
the Federal courthouse. In the scene, Oliver North tries to
recruit Richard Secord to run the Contrary Supply Operation. Director
wants you, General, and your country needs you.
Speaker 13 (27:35):
I'm a businessman now, and this is a business proposition
with the usual markup the CIA is.
Speaker 15 (27:41):
Making up for.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Writing in The New York Times, Maureen Dowd described it
as a collision of art and life being played out
back to the future style. By this point, the relationship
between Mike Robe and David Keith had become strained. As
it turned out their political differences placed them at odds
on the question of who Oliver North was and how
he should be portrayed in the movie.
Speaker 9 (28:03):
David liked, essentially that North said what he believed, and
believed what he said and acted on it.
Speaker 10 (28:11):
Now, once again, the same gang of reds are establishing
a potential nuclear base right in our own hemisphere.
Speaker 11 (28:17):
In front of us. Mister President, We're not ready to.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Lick a pissant islands or what's become of us.
Speaker 9 (28:26):
There was a period in a scene where Oliver North
was hospitalized during a rocky time in his marriage, during
the time he had come back from Vietnam, and he
was hospitalized for emotional.
Speaker 13 (28:41):
Stress, emotional distress, whatever that means.
Speaker 9 (28:48):
That's documented. But when I tried to get David to
behave as someone undergoing emotional stress, he felt I was
trying to make Oliver North look crazy, and I tried
to say, David, that's why he's in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
David Keith, who didn't respond to interview requests for this podcast,
told People magazine that he had tried to make North
more of a hero and Robe had tried to make
him less of one. We probably wound up with something
around the truth.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
In the end. I kind of felt like David's defense
of Norse ideology kind of fit the character. I mean,
that's kind of who Oliver North was.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 7 (29:42):
The Oliver North jury began debating criminal charges today against
the former Reagan White House aid with strong ties.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
After eight long weeks, Oliver North's trial began winding down.
On April twenty first, nineteen eighty nine, the jury began
its deliberations.
Speaker 13 (29:57):
The fate of Oliver North now rests with the jury
in his charge to the jury.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
In the midst of those deliberations, the cast and crew
of Guts and Glory were in the final days of
promotional blitz before the premiere of their movie.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
David Keith is Oliver North, Peter Boyle Is, John Poindexter,
Amy stock pointon is Bonn Hall.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
David Keith appeared on the cover of TV Guide in
a white marine dress uniform. Journalist Ben Bradley Jr. Went
on Fresh Air with Terry Gross to talk about the
adaptation of his book.
Speaker 16 (30:24):
You describe in your book the phone call that President
Reagan made to Oliver North, and he ended, according to report,
this phone conversation by saying to North, I'd say this
is going to make a great movie one day. I
think it's kind of funny that your book is actually
becoming the first movie about Oliver North.
Speaker 10 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 15 (30:42):
And actually it's even funnier that that very scene is
in the movie, which when I saw it makes me laugh.
It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, I guess, and
I'm satisfied that the film will do the book and
history justice.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
On April thirtieth, nine days after jury deliberations began, Part
one of Guts and Glory premiered on CBS.
Speaker 7 (31:09):
As good men to risk their lives for Notted, you
fight to win.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
It was the thirty first most watched program of the week,
behind Bionic Showdown, The Return of the six Million Dollar
Man and The Bionic Woman. The second half of Guts
and Glory was set to air a few days later.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
A secret operation explodes, but taking the heat could destroy
Oliver North.
Speaker 11 (31:32):
They've done anything criminal.
Speaker 12 (31:34):
The stunning conclusion of Guts and Glory tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Reviews for Guts and Glory were not positive. It is
fitting that television is rushing to tell North's story before
it is concluded, wrote a TV critic for the San
Diego Union Tribune, and particularly fitting that a story so
confusing has become even more muddied when told in a
television drama.
Speaker 9 (31:56):
I think some of the critics didn't quite know what
to make of it. They had their expectations. The ratings
in the ann weren't particularly great.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Critics were especially harsh about a scene in which Oliver
North flew a plane through a firefight in Central America
to rescue a group of soldiers. Get the Wounded, Get
thee In his book, Ben Bradley Junior had noted that
the story may have been apocryphal because no one had
ever heard of North being able to fly. But the
(32:25):
main problem, according to a review in The Buffalo Times,
was that America seemed to be Ali to death already.
Speaker 9 (32:32):
I think the story had evaporated by the time we
actually got on the air, even though we got on
the air as quickly as we could. I mean, people
had had enough of Oliver North. One way or the other.
It had been prick Asi and fried and stewed Ali Mania.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
It seemed was not a phenomenon. It was a fad.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
The jury now has spoken and answered the question of
Oliver North's guilt in the Arms for Iran?
Speaker 8 (33:04):
What happened to the money case?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
On Thursday May fourth, nineteen eighty nine, two days after
And Glory finished airing on CBS, the jury in North
trial returned to verdict.
Speaker 10 (33:15):
Leading the news.
Speaker 13 (33:16):
This Thursday, a jury found Oliver North guilty on three
of twelve counts. The guilties game on charges of obstructing Congress,
destroying government documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity in the
form of a security system at his hall.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
On all the other charges, the jury found North not guilty,
an indication that they didn't see him as a ringleader
or even a rogue operator.
Speaker 14 (33:38):
But it seemed to be saying, we're not going to
throw the book at him.
Speaker 8 (33:41):
This was the low man on the totem pole.
Speaker 14 (33:43):
So well, we agree he did something wrong, but we're
not going to buy all of it.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
We're not going to pile on.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
North immediately appealed to verdict and took the opportunity to
address the media.
Speaker 10 (33:53):
Just a very brief statement, that is that today's verdict
by the jury here in Washington is a partial vindication
for what has been for my family in me a
very long and difficult process. We will continue this battle.
We will be fully vindicated. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Guts and Glory ended up being the first adaptation of
Iran Contra to be released, and strangely, it was kind
of the last.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Though there have been a few feature.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Films about the Contra war, Hollywood has failed, at least
so far, to produce one definitive account of the whole saga.
There is no All the President's Men for Iran Contra,
and though Oliver North has held on to various forms
of relevance over the years, by appearing on Fox News
leading the NRA and running unsuccessfully for a Senate seat.
(34:47):
I think it's fair to say that he is not
endured as an object of fascination. I've been trying to
figure out why why North didn't last, why Iran Contra
didn't last, why Guts and Glory ended up being Hollywood's
only attempt to capture the story. Mike Robe thinks a
big part of the problem is Oliver North himself.
Speaker 9 (35:08):
Ultimately, American people judged that their est was no complexity
or intellect or reason to keep following this one dimensional marine.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
Frankly, a marine does what it takes.
Speaker 11 (35:28):
I fight any way I can.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Bite, scratch lie, because in the end, America's worth it.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
The Washington Post review of Guts and Glory summed it
up nicely, saying that North, as portrayed by David Keith,
did not live up to the status of tragic hero
because his flaws were mundane and his heroic self aggrandizing.
I think that's true about Oliver North as portrayed by
Oliver North too. Even when he published his memoir in
nineteen ninety one, North came across as a man without
(35:58):
much capacity for self doubt or inner conflict about the
events of Iran Contra. After the sugar High of Alimania,
it just wasn't that much fun to keep thinking about him,
so he faded away. There's another theory I've heard about
(36:20):
why Iran Contra isn't more prominent in our collective memory.
The theory is basically that the ending sucked. Instead of
crescendoing into impeachment proceedings or prison time, Iran Contra evaporated gradually.
One year after his trial, North conviction was overturned because
of concerns over witness testimony being tainted by immunized statements.
(36:42):
As for Ronald Reagan, he got to write off into
the sunset as a triumphant two term president, succeeded by
his VP, George H. W.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Bush.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
As it turned out, Bush had some ideas of his
own about how Iran Contra should end. On the next
and final episode to Fiasco, the Independent Council's Office tries
(37:13):
to finish its work on Iran Contra while contending with
two presidents at once.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
The three leading television channels ran the story of the
Vice President and all help brokeloves.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
For a list of books, articles, and documentaries, we used
in our research.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Follow the link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Fiasco is a production of Prolog Projects and it's distributed
by Pushkin Industries. Shows produced by Andrew Parsons, Madeline kaplan
Ula Kulpa and me Leon Mayfock. Our editor was Camilla Hammer.
Our researcher was Francis Carr, with additional archival research from
Caitlin Nicholas. Our music is by Nick Silvester. Our theme
(37:56):
song is by Spatial Relations. Our artwork is by Teddy
Blanks at Chips and y Audio, mixed by Rob Buyers,
Michael Rayfield and Johnny Vince Evans. Copyright council provided by
Peter Yassi at Yass Butler Po Thanks to Truechivmovies, dot Net,
Eddie Brandt, Saturday, Mattinee, Ann Roe, Robert Papazian, Jim Hirsch,
(38:18):
Jay Weston, Michelle McGonagall, the Writers Guild Foundation, the Paley Center,
as well as Sam Graham Felson, Katya kum Kova and
SIREA Shockley Special. Thanks to Luminary and thank you for listening.
(38:44):
Binge the entire season of Fiasco Iran Contra ad free
by subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the Fiasco
show page on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm
slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes,
full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all Pushkin
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