April 26, 2021 • 27 mins
When you go to DC to visit two journalists at the heart of modern American political history, you don’t expect also to get a deep insight into the man who first introduced our nation to the revelations of “Deep Throat”. Bob and Elsa’s candid interview was not the conversation we were expecting with this journalistic legend.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. What a kick it
(00:40):
was to head down to the nation's capital for a
visit with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh, two journalists under
one roof. As an old newsman myself, I felt right
at home. You and Bob began talking about how to
save the world the moment we walked in. They live
in a beautiful section of Georgetown. Bob bought this great
(01:00):
colonial house just a few years before he and Elsa met,
but together they've turned it into a lovely home. We
were greeted by Maggie, the miniature poodle, who followed us
from room to room as we set up our gear,
just like a cub reporter. They had laid out some
delicious snacks, which I'm afraid we dove into somewhat noisily
(01:22):
at times. Once we settled in, also talked about growing
up as one of six kids, with four sisters and
a brother. I was surprised to learn that, just like Marlowe,
as a young girl, she never dreamt of getting married.
My parents were Irish immigrants. My mom was actually eight
months pregnant with me when she came with my dad.
(01:44):
My dad was a civil engineer and he lived sort
of all over the world and wanted to go to
San Francisco for a year. He thought it would be fun.
My dad was bipolar and handsome, intelligent, but you know,
pretty up and down rudy. So she had a rough
time with your father. Yes, I know it had a
(02:04):
lot of fun, but he would be difficult. And my mom,
she was just this sort of safe harbor of both
love and fun and acceptance. And when I think about
marriage and what was important that I learned from her
was just that you're in it and you stay in it.
(02:25):
Is that what you didn't want to get married because
you have to stick with it forever? No, you know,
you always like to think of yourself as being sort
of an independent operator with all your own thoughts being
very original. But all the great icons at that time,
you know, Gloria Steinem's, you know that girl, they weren't
getting married. You know, that was being strong, and that
(02:46):
was being adventurous, and so I think I wanted to
be part of that movement. So when I met Bob,
I didn't want to marry you, but I wanted to
be with you. You met in the Yes, were you
smitten right away? Smitten is an understatement. Ben Bradley's wife,
(03:07):
Sally Quinn Rudder in to meet the editors. I was
the local aditor and you you know, there's just something
How old were you then? I was really young? You
were twenty two and you were thirty seven or sixty
(03:28):
sixty or thirty seven, and just hand over heels in
love physically, emotionally and the added benefit of the risk.
Now you may not agree because you sometimes didn't like
the secrecy. No, that's true, but I understood it. Why
(03:50):
were you secret? Were you were married? Right? No? But
I wasn't working for him, but he was in the
chain of command, and you know, being in journalism, it
was like a hotbed of gossip all the time. Yeah.
Part of it is so much of what you you
during your reporting process is secretive and you can't really
(04:14):
talk about it with a lot of people. And you
can trust you you can trust me. Yeah. I mean
one of the things we were talking about is that
we were just this weekend. Bob was saying, when did
I tell you about deep throat when did I tell
you who it was? Again? Was it like eighty two
(04:35):
or eighty three? I said, no, I think it was
eighty one. And I think we've been going out and
he had a relationship for maybe a year and we
were out to dinner on in the street, remember then, Yeah,
and you asked these who was deep throat? And I said, well,
you know, wow, you told her. You know how many
(04:56):
people had you tolled up till then? Carl and brad Lin?
And that was it? So why did you trust her?
Suck her? I mean it just be be around her
when you see it. You must have been really impressed
that he trusted you with I was. I was, really
I was. I was surprised you told you, weren't. I
(05:16):
was very say we never talked about it afterwards or no,
I thought you might take aback. I just love that
he instinctively trusted her with one of the biggest secrets
in American history. I got the sense that their connection
to each other has a lot to do with their
childhoods Elsie had this incredibly stable family, even though her
(05:39):
father was bipolar. But my family was not stable at all.
My parents were divorced when I was quite young, about
twelve or thirteen, and her mother had been in the
hospital and had a nervous breakdown. And my father came
to say that my mother is out of the hospital
(06:04):
now and she's married Tom Barnes, who was my father's
first best friend. And I remember thinking to myself, Ah,
you're in this alone. Well, you can have a mother
and a father and friends, and but you're in it alone.
(06:24):
And it was a very kind of just, you know,
when you're voice a few think your mom's kind of
loved you enough to not leave the marriage and marry
somebody else, that alone, my father's best friend. And it
was so painful but also a kind of oh okay,
(06:50):
I'm I'm in this alone. And I got to figure
it out. And after college, I was in the Navy,
and I because I signed up from Naval ROTC, and
I married a woman who was my high school sweetheart.
(07:11):
As they say, she was a very smart, lovely person.
And when I was off on a you know, marriage
just felt apart and it was a kind of second
act of the oh, okay, we're in this alone. And
then after Nixon resigned, I was in a romance and
(07:37):
got married a second time, and we had Tally and
that didn't last, and I didn't last because she essentially
we had Tali and left with Tally, and so that
was kind of the third act of Oh, okay, you're
(07:58):
in this alone. So when we started going out and
when my mother died, I wanted to get married, but
I was embarrassed to propose it to you because I
felt I'd had all of these two earlier failed marriages
(08:20):
and you were, you know, wonderful. And we were married
in nineteen eighty nine. I think I was surprised when
Bob asked me to marry him because it was unexpected.
And I remember we've been together that long then, nine years,
and it was unexpected. I was unexpected. We were out
at our house in Maryland and we were sitting out
(08:40):
on this little small sun room that we have, and
we were talking about his mom who had died, and
he said, um, you know, nothing would make me happier
than if you would marry me. And instead of feelings
are shocked, I was so excited. So ever since then,
(09:02):
I really I loved being married. I mean, I love
being married to Bob, but I loved the idea of
saying to each other and to other people that we're
in it together. That realization is liberating and quite empowering,
because until that moment it was kind of you know,
(09:27):
the people are going to desert you, the unexpected, the
surprise after all those people leaving. Did you have a
feeling that this is the one who wouldn't leave? Sure?
Because she said so and acted so, and what she
(09:49):
did it. I mean we were talking somewhat recently and
I mentioned something about you don't know when people are
going to fail you, or you are going to fail yourself.
And I thought of Lord Jim when he jumps, and
remember what you say? Yes, I said, I don't. That's great.
(10:12):
Elsa not only didn't leave, she dove into the relationship
head first, and over the years as a writer herself,
she has become an invaluable contributor to Bob's work. She
would look at sections, look at chapters, look at the
book made her enterprise and said, this is important. You
(10:33):
should do this. Did you do every note she gave you?
Or did you not know? Of course? Now you were cookie,
but enough for good. But we never thought about it.
But she's so interesting. Over the period of a year,
at least, you never really thought about work. Well, I
(10:54):
thank you. And I very early on in our relationship,
decided that when we were looking at each other's work,
we would always be honest. We wouldn't be cruel. You know,
you hand something to someone that you've broked on and
you think you weren't always happy. There was one point
where you were doing this the book and you brought
(11:15):
me down some new chapter and I worked on it
and you came down anyone. I thought it was great,
but she was right, yeah, you know, and as I
realized it would not have been done is completely or
(11:35):
is logically without her. That's great, Elsa. As a way,
it's the power of empathy, of listening, and the power
of questioning. When I come back from an interview, it's
like a mini interrogation. Also doesn't oh yeah to me,
(11:57):
and I sometimes bristle added, But I've come to realize
it helps me understand what I'm working on, and that
happens between the two of us most days we're together.
I realized else's a therapist doesn't have a license for
(12:20):
practices my primary patients primary. I think one of the
things that we've always sort of felt is that we're
a team professionally and personally, and that we've always been
really involved in each other's work. With my work, there's
(12:43):
probably been no person who comes anywhere close to being
the sort of my advisor, the encourager, the person who says,
you know, take a leap, you know. But when you
talk about doing Divined Lives, your book about the three women,
I just listened. I think you and I at that
(13:04):
point had been married three or four years, but we
had been together for twelve years, and you started working
on the book as a kind of how I was
trying to figure out my own life. I was trying
to figure out what was the next stage for me,
should we have a child, if we not have a child.
And I'm a very deliberate person, probably too much though,
(13:29):
And you would always say to me, well, who are
the women you know who are happy? It's kind of
like your question, who are the people who have marriages
that last? And why? And you actually you said, why
didn't you go out and talk to people? Why don't
you sort of figure it out? And did that help
you want to become a mother? It did, yeah, very much. So,
and you came up with what are the ingredients of
(13:52):
a balanced life for a woman? So what would do everything.
It was creating a home, creating a nest for yourself,
time with your friends, relationship in a marriage and a family,
your work life, your sense of self of who you are,
and also just time to be by yourself. I like
to be by myself a lot, which is probably a
(14:15):
good thing on our marriage, right, You'll like to be
by yourself too. You rattle around, well, I rattle around,
and I waste time. We'll have more. After a quick break,
(14:41):
we're back to our conversation with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh.
They've been together for forty years, so Marlow threw a
real Woodward type question, what's the biggest mistake you've ever
made in your marriage? And how have you come back
from it? I can remember one particular incident. This was
when you were working on The Commanders, which was his
(15:04):
book about the Pentagon Colin Powell First Goal four and
Bob every weekend week go to Maryland. He had work
to do and always busy. After you had finished the
reporting on the book and turned it in but it
was not yet published, we were out there for a
(15:25):
weekend and I got up in the morning and I said, oh,
I was going to the store, and I didn't come
back for about six or seven hours. Right, Oh my gosh.
This was before cell phones. And I got back and
you couldn't decide whether you were furious or you were relieved.
(15:47):
And you were almost crying because you said you were
planning my funeral. You were deciding whether you should bring
the dogs to the funeral or not. And I looked
at him. I was like, oh my god, it's crazy,
what's going on here? And he said, well, you never called.
You never told me. And I said, well, but you've
(16:08):
been big. See, you've been busy every weekend for the
last year. What do you think I've been doing. I've
been like, I've been keeping myself busy. And suddenly he
was free. He didn't have that reporting and I had
gotten into my own little world and my own little
(16:30):
routine of doing things and not checking in. And I realized,
actually that you needed me more than I thought when
he was available. Well, no, I know that guy. I
think there was a little you were so upset six
or seven hours. Did you do it to show himself? No, No,
(16:54):
I was just I was just no. I did not, No,
I did not. And every every weekend he was talking
on the I would just do something, you know, I
just didn't. I didn't. I didn't feel I needed to
check in because he was already check in somewhere else
or checked out so fas, and so I thought. I
(17:16):
think that there are like moments like that in which
then you say, oh M, you need a readjustment here,
I need more attention. How do you bring up a
hard topic? How do you how do you handle a
hard topic? You usually say I want to talk to
you about something, and then we sit down and I
(17:42):
don't want to talk about that. Let's not or let's
kind of because you are kind of Um, I'll talk
about it for a little bit. But I also think
sometimes people make a mistake. And I've been at there
with myself. I mean, I have done so I'm not
sort of an adverse to that at all. Um, I
(18:05):
think you can make things worse sometimes by trying to
just pull it part. And you know, maybe that's just
a defense mechanism or something, but I think I I mean,
I went through I did a fair amount of cognitive
behavioral therapy at one point in my life. UM, do
you know what that is? Yes, I think very early
on in our marriage and you and I talked about this,
(18:26):
that that we would try to always assume good intentions
and that when someone is being a jerk, it's not
that they're being a jerk to you. Is there just
being a jerk, it's not directed you. See, this is
the theme also brings up good intentions? Are there bad intentions?
(18:51):
And is best I can recall? I don't think she's
ever done anything with bad intention toward me or I
toward her, and she will let things go if I'm
especially exceptive. I talked to much of therapy about it.
And you don't ever have marriage counseling, right, what do
(19:14):
you call this man? Cognitive behavioral therapist tell him what
they do. It deals a lot with anxiety. I'm just
going to fail. I know I'm going to fail. And
so what the cognitive behavioral therapist does is teaches you
how to identify that distorted thinking. And he'll say when
(19:36):
people are in states of high anxiety and distorted thinking,
they usually are in their catastrophic thinking modes. They most
people go to five, which is like this is just
like horrible, And in reality, when you really look at something,
it usually is about a one or two. And so
it trains you to see. It's not saying it's not
(19:58):
a problem or you shouldn't be afraid. It's like it's
like you don't have to be as afraid. So let's
say you're in your bedroom and you hear a huge
crash and it's the middle of the night. You might think,
oh my god, someone has broken into my house. They're
(20:20):
going to kill me. The cognitive behavioral therapist would say, well,
how likely is that. It's much more likely that actually
is a branch that fell fell down outside, So it's
the one or two. So it trains you to see
the one or two rather than the find it's great.
The other day, and this was maybe a month ago,
(20:42):
something was bugging me and we had one of our conversations.
I said, in twenty sixteen the Trump campaign, I felt
for a good reason, I didn't work hard enough to
get his taps for terms and so. And we've talked
(21:05):
about it at the time and console and I was
really feeling bad, and Elsa said, well, you know what
you did was reasonable, and you know you're not carrying
the world on your back. Oh boy, the version of
your not kingcom And I said, well, I really feel
(21:29):
I kind of let myself down and so and by
talking about it, it was a five for me because
I was churning and going on it. Let the little down. Yeah,
and then she said, well, that's not your job and
(21:52):
you couldn't. And there you know, there were reasons. There
are always reasons for not doing something, and the reason
they're reasonable and account. I don't think they got me
down to one or two. We've got me to the reason.
But that's great. Bob oftentimes says, what what can I
do to make you happy? And I'll say, that's not
(22:13):
your job. That's my job. Assume good intentions, keep your promise,
don't leave the house angry. And you are you into
this thing of don't go to bit angry. I'm trying
to be, but that's not always as easy. Letty Polgaban said,
I have no desire to sit up all night until
(22:34):
somebody admits they're wrong. Yeah, so I just haven't. We
always we, I mean we we actually don't. We do
not argue very often, which is good for me. I
like it that way, maybe not as good for you.
I don't like arguing, but I think sometimes having discussions
(22:59):
isn't worth it. And because you know where it's going
you know where it's gonna go. Yeah, Well I didn't
get matters, just matter. Sometimes it's just not worth it.
And when you have a spouse who's you know, will
let things go, even maybe things she shouldn't let go,
(23:23):
there are certain expectations we have of each other that
we actually fulfill and in no way have we made
the other feel they're in this. And I think that
there is a kind of a code word that we have,
(23:50):
and that is I love you. Is that something you
say when things are hard? No, And each morning when
you generally get up before me, Yeah, you're down here
in the coffee and we can I come down and
get him the keiss and say I love you, and
I say I love you, or going to bed at night,
(24:13):
I said I love you, I love you. And so
it's a kind of there's no volcano, so much easier
journeying under the under the surface. And you know, particularly
(24:35):
when we get older, we're at appointment in our lives
where we have obligations beyond just our family and ourselves.
And I always talk about the fourth act of your life. Yeah,
the first act of getting educated and then second act
(24:57):
of deciding how you're going to live and what your
career is going to be, and then your third act
the middle years, and then there's there actually is a
fourth act. Isn't that mean you two are living a
fourth that act and you want to be as wise
(25:18):
and focused and consequence oriended as you were in the
first three acts. I really think that the lives are
enriched by discussion and analysis, and I think it's good
you're picking at it. I think we learned something to
(25:39):
appreciate what we have. Yeah, that's right. I could not
understand the value of Elsa if I was not able to,
I think be analytical about the past of you know, Oh,
I'm in this alone. And if I couldn't understand that,
(26:02):
I wouldn't understand the gift that's Bob, wouldn't Ward and
Elsa Walsh the gratitude they have for one another. It
just goes to show you you can do the dog
eat dog world of journalism and still make home your
own little sanctuary until next time. I'm Phil Donahue and
(26:24):
I'm Marlo Thomas. Double Day is a production of Pushkin Industries.
The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly.
Michael Bahari is Associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had
to Be You by Selwagon. Sympinette, Marlo and I are
(26:46):
executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from
Pushkin Special thanks to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine,
John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel,
Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show,
(27:10):
please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.
Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and
we're going on a series of double dates to find
out what makes a marriage last. What a kick it
(00:40):
was to head down to the nation's capital for a
visit with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh, two journalists under
one roof. As an old newsman myself, I felt right
at home. You and Bob began talking about how to
save the world the moment we walked in. They live
in a beautiful section of Georgetown. Bob bought this great
(01:00):
colonial house just a few years before he and Elsa met,
but together they've turned it into a lovely home. We
were greeted by Maggie, the miniature poodle, who followed us
from room to room as we set up our gear,
just like a cub reporter. They had laid out some
delicious snacks, which I'm afraid we dove into somewhat noisily
(01:22):
at times. Once we settled in, also talked about growing
up as one of six kids, with four sisters and
a brother. I was surprised to learn that, just like Marlowe,
as a young girl, she never dreamt of getting married.
My parents were Irish immigrants. My mom was actually eight
months pregnant with me when she came with my dad.
(01:44):
My dad was a civil engineer and he lived sort
of all over the world and wanted to go to
San Francisco for a year. He thought it would be fun.
My dad was bipolar and handsome, intelligent, but you know,
pretty up and down rudy. So she had a rough
time with your father. Yes, I know it had a
(02:04):
lot of fun, but he would be difficult. And my mom,
she was just this sort of safe harbor of both
love and fun and acceptance. And when I think about
marriage and what was important that I learned from her
was just that you're in it and you stay in it.
(02:25):
Is that what you didn't want to get married because
you have to stick with it forever? No, you know,
you always like to think of yourself as being sort
of an independent operator with all your own thoughts being
very original. But all the great icons at that time,
you know, Gloria Steinem's, you know that girl, they weren't
getting married. You know, that was being strong, and that
(02:46):
was being adventurous, and so I think I wanted to
be part of that movement. So when I met Bob,
I didn't want to marry you, but I wanted to
be with you. You met in the Yes, were you
smitten right away? Smitten is an understatement. Ben Bradley's wife,
(03:07):
Sally Quinn Rudder in to meet the editors. I was
the local aditor and you you know, there's just something
How old were you then? I was really young? You
were twenty two and you were thirty seven or sixty
(03:28):
sixty or thirty seven, and just hand over heels in
love physically, emotionally and the added benefit of the risk.
Now you may not agree because you sometimes didn't like
the secrecy. No, that's true, but I understood it. Why
(03:50):
were you secret? Were you were married? Right? No? But
I wasn't working for him, but he was in the
chain of command, and you know, being in journalism, it
was like a hotbed of gossip all the time. Yeah.
Part of it is so much of what you you
during your reporting process is secretive and you can't really
(04:14):
talk about it with a lot of people. And you
can trust you you can trust me. Yeah. I mean
one of the things we were talking about is that
we were just this weekend. Bob was saying, when did
I tell you about deep throat when did I tell
you who it was? Again? Was it like eighty two
(04:35):
or eighty three? I said, no, I think it was
eighty one. And I think we've been going out and
he had a relationship for maybe a year and we
were out to dinner on in the street, remember then, Yeah,
and you asked these who was deep throat? And I said, well,
you know, wow, you told her. You know how many
(04:56):
people had you tolled up till then? Carl and brad Lin?
And that was it? So why did you trust her?
Suck her? I mean it just be be around her
when you see it. You must have been really impressed
that he trusted you with I was. I was, really
I was. I was surprised you told you, weren't. I
(05:16):
was very say we never talked about it afterwards or no,
I thought you might take aback. I just love that
he instinctively trusted her with one of the biggest secrets
in American history. I got the sense that their connection
to each other has a lot to do with their
childhoods Elsie had this incredibly stable family, even though her
(05:39):
father was bipolar. But my family was not stable at all.
My parents were divorced when I was quite young, about
twelve or thirteen, and her mother had been in the
hospital and had a nervous breakdown. And my father came
to say that my mother is out of the hospital
(06:04):
now and she's married Tom Barnes, who was my father's
first best friend. And I remember thinking to myself, Ah,
you're in this alone. Well, you can have a mother
and a father and friends, and but you're in it alone.
(06:24):
And it was a very kind of just, you know,
when you're voice a few think your mom's kind of
loved you enough to not leave the marriage and marry
somebody else, that alone, my father's best friend. And it
was so painful but also a kind of oh okay,
(06:50):
I'm I'm in this alone. And I got to figure
it out. And after college, I was in the Navy,
and I because I signed up from Naval ROTC, and
I married a woman who was my high school sweetheart.
(07:11):
As they say, she was a very smart, lovely person.
And when I was off on a you know, marriage
just felt apart and it was a kind of second
act of the oh, okay, we're in this alone. And
then after Nixon resigned, I was in a romance and
(07:37):
got married a second time, and we had Tally and
that didn't last, and I didn't last because she essentially
we had Tali and left with Tally, and so that
was kind of the third act of Oh, okay, you're
(07:58):
in this alone. So when we started going out and
when my mother died, I wanted to get married, but
I was embarrassed to propose it to you because I
felt I'd had all of these two earlier failed marriages
(08:20):
and you were, you know, wonderful. And we were married
in nineteen eighty nine. I think I was surprised when
Bob asked me to marry him because it was unexpected.
And I remember we've been together that long then, nine years,
and it was unexpected. I was unexpected. We were out
at our house in Maryland and we were sitting out
(08:40):
on this little small sun room that we have, and
we were talking about his mom who had died, and
he said, um, you know, nothing would make me happier
than if you would marry me. And instead of feelings
are shocked, I was so excited. So ever since then,
(09:02):
I really I loved being married. I mean, I love
being married to Bob, but I loved the idea of
saying to each other and to other people that we're
in it together. That realization is liberating and quite empowering,
because until that moment it was kind of you know,
(09:27):
the people are going to desert you, the unexpected, the
surprise after all those people leaving. Did you have a
feeling that this is the one who wouldn't leave? Sure?
Because she said so and acted so, and what she
(09:49):
did it. I mean we were talking somewhat recently and
I mentioned something about you don't know when people are
going to fail you, or you are going to fail yourself.
And I thought of Lord Jim when he jumps, and
remember what you say? Yes, I said, I don't. That's great.
(10:12):
Elsa not only didn't leave, she dove into the relationship
head first, and over the years as a writer herself,
she has become an invaluable contributor to Bob's work. She
would look at sections, look at chapters, look at the
book made her enterprise and said, this is important. You
(10:33):
should do this. Did you do every note she gave you?
Or did you not know? Of course? Now you were cookie,
but enough for good. But we never thought about it.
But she's so interesting. Over the period of a year,
at least, you never really thought about work. Well, I
(10:54):
thank you. And I very early on in our relationship,
decided that when we were looking at each other's work,
we would always be honest. We wouldn't be cruel. You know,
you hand something to someone that you've broked on and
you think you weren't always happy. There was one point
where you were doing this the book and you brought
(11:15):
me down some new chapter and I worked on it
and you came down anyone. I thought it was great,
but she was right, yeah, you know, and as I
realized it would not have been done is completely or
(11:35):
is logically without her. That's great, Elsa. As a way,
it's the power of empathy, of listening, and the power
of questioning. When I come back from an interview, it's
like a mini interrogation. Also doesn't oh yeah to me,
(11:57):
and I sometimes bristle added, But I've come to realize
it helps me understand what I'm working on, and that
happens between the two of us most days we're together.
I realized else's a therapist doesn't have a license for
(12:20):
practices my primary patients primary. I think one of the
things that we've always sort of felt is that we're
a team professionally and personally, and that we've always been
really involved in each other's work. With my work, there's
(12:43):
probably been no person who comes anywhere close to being
the sort of my advisor, the encourager, the person who says,
you know, take a leap, you know. But when you
talk about doing Divined Lives, your book about the three women,
I just listened. I think you and I at that
(13:04):
point had been married three or four years, but we
had been together for twelve years, and you started working
on the book as a kind of how I was
trying to figure out my own life. I was trying
to figure out what was the next stage for me,
should we have a child, if we not have a child.
And I'm a very deliberate person, probably too much though,
(13:29):
And you would always say to me, well, who are
the women you know who are happy? It's kind of
like your question, who are the people who have marriages
that last? And why? And you actually you said, why
didn't you go out and talk to people? Why don't
you sort of figure it out? And did that help
you want to become a mother? It did, yeah, very much. So,
and you came up with what are the ingredients of
(13:52):
a balanced life for a woman? So what would do everything.
It was creating a home, creating a nest for yourself,
time with your friends, relationship in a marriage and a family,
your work life, your sense of self of who you are,
and also just time to be by yourself. I like
to be by myself a lot, which is probably a
(14:15):
good thing on our marriage, right, You'll like to be
by yourself too. You rattle around, well, I rattle around,
and I waste time. We'll have more. After a quick break,
(14:41):
we're back to our conversation with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh.
They've been together for forty years, so Marlow threw a
real Woodward type question, what's the biggest mistake you've ever
made in your marriage? And how have you come back
from it? I can remember one particular incident. This was
when you were working on The Commanders, which was his
(15:04):
book about the Pentagon Colin Powell First Goal four and
Bob every weekend week go to Maryland. He had work
to do and always busy. After you had finished the
reporting on the book and turned it in but it
was not yet published, we were out there for a
(15:25):
weekend and I got up in the morning and I said, oh,
I was going to the store, and I didn't come
back for about six or seven hours. Right, Oh my gosh.
This was before cell phones. And I got back and
you couldn't decide whether you were furious or you were relieved.
(15:47):
And you were almost crying because you said you were
planning my funeral. You were deciding whether you should bring
the dogs to the funeral or not. And I looked
at him. I was like, oh my god, it's crazy,
what's going on here? And he said, well, you never called.
You never told me. And I said, well, but you've
(16:08):
been big. See, you've been busy every weekend for the
last year. What do you think I've been doing. I've
been like, I've been keeping myself busy. And suddenly he
was free. He didn't have that reporting and I had
gotten into my own little world and my own little
(16:30):
routine of doing things and not checking in. And I realized,
actually that you needed me more than I thought when
he was available. Well, no, I know that guy. I
think there was a little you were so upset six
or seven hours. Did you do it to show himself? No, No,
(16:54):
I was just I was just no. I did not, No,
I did not. And every every weekend he was talking
on the I would just do something, you know, I
just didn't. I didn't. I didn't feel I needed to
check in because he was already check in somewhere else
or checked out so fas, and so I thought. I
(17:16):
think that there are like moments like that in which
then you say, oh M, you need a readjustment here,
I need more attention. How do you bring up a
hard topic? How do you how do you handle a
hard topic? You usually say I want to talk to
you about something, and then we sit down and I
(17:42):
don't want to talk about that. Let's not or let's
kind of because you are kind of Um, I'll talk
about it for a little bit. But I also think
sometimes people make a mistake. And I've been at there
with myself. I mean, I have done so I'm not
sort of an adverse to that at all. Um, I
(18:05):
think you can make things worse sometimes by trying to
just pull it part. And you know, maybe that's just
a defense mechanism or something, but I think I I mean,
I went through I did a fair amount of cognitive
behavioral therapy at one point in my life. UM, do
you know what that is? Yes, I think very early
on in our marriage and you and I talked about this,
(18:26):
that that we would try to always assume good intentions
and that when someone is being a jerk, it's not
that they're being a jerk to you. Is there just
being a jerk, it's not directed you. See, this is
the theme also brings up good intentions? Are there bad intentions?
(18:51):
And is best I can recall? I don't think she's
ever done anything with bad intention toward me or I
toward her, and she will let things go if I'm
especially exceptive. I talked to much of therapy about it.
And you don't ever have marriage counseling, right, what do
(19:14):
you call this man? Cognitive behavioral therapist tell him what
they do. It deals a lot with anxiety. I'm just
going to fail. I know I'm going to fail. And
so what the cognitive behavioral therapist does is teaches you
how to identify that distorted thinking. And he'll say when
(19:36):
people are in states of high anxiety and distorted thinking,
they usually are in their catastrophic thinking modes. They most
people go to five, which is like this is just
like horrible, And in reality, when you really look at something,
it usually is about a one or two. And so
it trains you to see. It's not saying it's not
(19:58):
a problem or you shouldn't be afraid. It's like it's
like you don't have to be as afraid. So let's
say you're in your bedroom and you hear a huge
crash and it's the middle of the night. You might think,
oh my god, someone has broken into my house. They're
(20:20):
going to kill me. The cognitive behavioral therapist would say, well,
how likely is that. It's much more likely that actually
is a branch that fell fell down outside, So it's
the one or two. So it trains you to see
the one or two rather than the find it's great.
The other day, and this was maybe a month ago,
(20:42):
something was bugging me and we had one of our conversations.
I said, in twenty sixteen the Trump campaign, I felt
for a good reason, I didn't work hard enough to
get his taps for terms and so. And we've talked
(21:05):
about it at the time and console and I was
really feeling bad, and Elsa said, well, you know what
you did was reasonable, and you know you're not carrying
the world on your back. Oh boy, the version of
your not kingcom And I said, well, I really feel
(21:29):
I kind of let myself down and so and by
talking about it, it was a five for me because
I was churning and going on it. Let the little down. Yeah,
and then she said, well, that's not your job and
(21:52):
you couldn't. And there you know, there were reasons. There
are always reasons for not doing something, and the reason
they're reasonable and account. I don't think they got me
down to one or two. We've got me to the reason.
But that's great. Bob oftentimes says, what what can I
do to make you happy? And I'll say, that's not
(22:13):
your job. That's my job. Assume good intentions, keep your promise,
don't leave the house angry. And you are you into
this thing of don't go to bit angry. I'm trying
to be, but that's not always as easy. Letty Polgaban said,
I have no desire to sit up all night until
(22:34):
somebody admits they're wrong. Yeah, so I just haven't. We
always we, I mean we we actually don't. We do
not argue very often, which is good for me. I
like it that way, maybe not as good for you.
I don't like arguing, but I think sometimes having discussions
(22:59):
isn't worth it. And because you know where it's going
you know where it's gonna go. Yeah, Well I didn't
get matters, just matter. Sometimes it's just not worth it.
And when you have a spouse who's you know, will
let things go, even maybe things she shouldn't let go,
(23:23):
there are certain expectations we have of each other that
we actually fulfill and in no way have we made
the other feel they're in this. And I think that
there is a kind of a code word that we have,
(23:50):
and that is I love you. Is that something you
say when things are hard? No, And each morning when
you generally get up before me, Yeah, you're down here
in the coffee and we can I come down and
get him the keiss and say I love you, and
I say I love you, or going to bed at night,
(24:13):
I said I love you, I love you. And so
it's a kind of there's no volcano, so much easier
journeying under the under the surface. And you know, particularly
(24:35):
when we get older, we're at appointment in our lives
where we have obligations beyond just our family and ourselves.
And I always talk about the fourth act of your life. Yeah,
the first act of getting educated and then second act
(24:57):
of deciding how you're going to live and what your
career is going to be, and then your third act
the middle years, and then there's there actually is a
fourth act. Isn't that mean you two are living a
fourth that act and you want to be as wise
(25:18):
and focused and consequence oriended as you were in the
first three acts. I really think that the lives are
enriched by discussion and analysis, and I think it's good
you're picking at it. I think we learned something to
(25:39):
appreciate what we have. Yeah, that's right. I could not
understand the value of Elsa if I was not able to,
I think be analytical about the past of you know, Oh,
I'm in this alone. And if I couldn't understand that,
(26:02):
I wouldn't understand the gift that's Bob, wouldn't Ward and
Elsa Walsh the gratitude they have for one another. It
just goes to show you you can do the dog
eat dog world of journalism and still make home your
own little sanctuary until next time. I'm Phil Donahue and
(26:24):
I'm Marlo Thomas. Double Day is a production of Pushkin Industries.
The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly.
Michael Bahari is Associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had
to Be You by Selwagon. Sympinette, Marlo and I are
(26:46):
executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from
Pushkin Special thanks to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine,
John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel,
Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show,
(27:10):
please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.
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