April 22, 2022 • 32 mins
Anita Hill interviews ballet dancer Misty Copeland about her experience in the predominantly white ballet world, her leading role at American Ballet Theatre, and how she built a career on her own terms.
If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to subscribe to our email list.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to
Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other
Pushkin shows. Add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign
(00:35):
up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
or at Pushkin dot Fm. It's difficult to change the
way people think ballet should be, and I felt like
I had a purpose, which is to exist in these
white spaces and succeed and change the narrative. That's ballet
(01:01):
dancer Misty Copeland. She made history in twenty fifteen when
she became the first black woman ever to be promoted
to principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater. When she's
off stage, Copeland is committed to making more communities feel
like bay belong in the world of ballet. I feel
(01:23):
like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility.
Copeland's interest in music and movement drew her to ballet
at a young age. It was her creative outlet and escape,
and as she progressed, ballet both nurtured and challenged her.
I attribute my success, the person that I am, all
of this to so many of the qualities within the
(01:46):
ballet structure. That gave me the tools to be successful,
not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
as a woman, as a leader in my community. I'm
Anita Hill. This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality
(02:07):
and what it takes to get there. On Getting Even,
I speak with people who are improving our imperfect world,
people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode,
Missy Copeland and I discuss how she journeyed from the
local boys and Girls club to the American Ballet Theater,
(02:28):
maneuvering through racist politics along the way. We also discuss
how she uses that very platform to empower black and
brown girls. Today. You were the first person on my
list to interview, and it's really a tribute to all
(02:48):
of the wonderful things that you've done and that you
continue to do in your professional life, as well as
the way you present outside of the ballet world. Thank you. So,
I want to just get started with your story. Am
I correct that you started ballet at thirteen? Yes? You are,
(03:09):
And I say it that way because it seems to
me that most of the people who are in those
beginning classes are like five years old. Yes, yes, that's true.
So what was it like for you those first few
years as somebody who was starting much later than some
of the people who you were probably dancing with. You know,
(03:32):
it was an opportunity that I feel like I was
craving and waiting for. Didn't realize it, you know, coming
from the communities that I grew up in, being in
a single parent home and being one of six children.
But I mean I was so introverted. I had a
lot of shame that was kind of surrounding me in
terms of not wanting people to know the circumstances that
(03:56):
we were living in, and so I became this like
shell of a person. I was not involved in any
any extracurricular activities, anything artistic or physical in terms of sports,
until I decided at like twelve and a half that
out of nowhere that I was going to audition for
the drill team, and not just auditioned to be on
(04:18):
the team, but I was going to audition to be
captain of the team. And you know, I think that
it was this evolution of having music in my life,
which was constantly around the house, and I was always
drawn to lyrics and it was like, these are the
words I wish I could speak, and things I'm feeling,
but I'm not capable. I don't have the tools, and
(04:40):
movement became this outlet with the chaos in my home,
whether it was abuse, instability, all of that. So I
auditioned for the drill team and I made captain. A
family was shocked. They're like, to you understand that you're
going to be on stage performing for people. And it
was interesting because being on a stage was the one
(05:00):
space that I felt protected. I felt like I could
express myself and communicate to the audience, but I didn't
have to see them. They weren't going to respond in
a way that I had to address what they were
thinking or their opinion. The teacher who was running the
drill team saw potential in me, and she suggested I
take a free ballet class that was being offered at
(05:21):
my local boys and Girls club. So it was at
thirteen years old that I really entered into ballet. I
took my first ballet class on a basketball court at
my club, and the teacher, who was teaching from the
local ballet school, she immediately said, I think you're a
prodigy and I want to take you into my school
full scholarship. She eventually invited me to live with her,
(05:43):
and from the moment that I stepped into her studio,
the goal was for me to dance professionally, and American
Ballet theater was always the goal. So it was a
clear vision of what I was working towards. But I
just fell in love with this thing that gave me
a purpose, gave me a way to grow as a
(06:04):
human being, and I just feel like it saved my life.
You said so many things that caught my attention. You
said there was a teacher, there was music that said
what you wanted to say but couldn't didn't have the
artistry to say it. And you said boys and Girls Club.
So those seem to be the really important elements of
(06:26):
your life that helped you in what you describe as
an unstable situation. Absolutely, and all of those things are
still so important in my life. So what music were
you listening to. There's a lot of soul and R
and B and hip hop being played around the house.
(06:48):
It was an array of music, But like Anita Baker
and Shade and Aretha Franklin, there's a lot of stuff.
The one that I really connected with was when Mariah
Carey's debut album came out, and you know, it was
the first time that I saw a biracial woman of
her caliber, her talent, her exposure, and I felt like
(07:11):
I could see myself in her. It wasn't a conscious
thing at the time, Like, it wasn't until I was
an adult that I could really decipher what that draw was.
That's the importance of representation. It allows for you to
see possibilities and it allows you to dream. And you know,
Mariah as a friend of mine now and it's just
(07:32):
funny to be able to like share these things with her.
And she's always like, I'm not taking credit for your
ballet career. I'm like, but Maria, you literally were like
the catalysts for everything, you know, for this, like belief
in myself that I could do this thing that I
knew nothing about, and seeing someone who looked like me
(07:53):
succeeding and talented and gifted. Well, you know. But that's
an amazing thing, is that that there are so many
different influences in each of our lives, but that you
could connect those influences with what you ultimately came to do.
I also note that that you had an outlet for
what was going on in your mind about what your
(08:15):
capabilities were, and how important it is for people to
have ballet or whatever it is that they set their
mind to do, have an opportunity to find it. Yes,
but I imagine that ballet was not available for everyone
in your area. You're absolutely right, and that's why I'm
(08:37):
so passionate about, first of all, identifying the beauty in
classical dance and all the positives that there are in
terms of like how it helped me as a young
person to develop as a human being. That's why I'm
such an advocate for creating opportunities for it to be
accessible to more communities and then kind of changing the
(09:01):
narrative and the outlook on how these communities see dance
and that they do belong in those spaces. You know,
I attribut my success the person that I am all
of this too, So many of the qualities within the
ballet structure that gave me the tools to be successful
not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
(09:21):
as a woman, as a leader in my community, and
for me as Misty the Black Ballerina. It's kind of
picking apart what are the things that need to change
and evolve in ballet, but what are the amazing things
about it that can help so many children right out
of the box. Let's say you were thinking way ahead.
(09:45):
I mean not that you were just going to learn ballet,
but that you were going to have a career in ballet. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean I think that says something about who you
are too. You know, you had an ambition, you were ambitious.
I don't think that consciously I was. I was like,
I'm focused, I'm going to be a professional, But it
(10:06):
was like, I love this and there's an no way
I could live my life without having it. And then
it evolved into learning about the history of ballet, learning
about the history of American Ballet theater, how I could
possibly fit into it. Then being brought to my first
live performance seeing ABT when I was fifteen years old,
and saying, I can see it clearly, this is exactly
(10:28):
what I want to do. These are what my goals are.
But again, it was having an incredible support system and
structure around me that allowed me to see those things clearly.
And you were making that kind of decision about where
you would go with the American Ballet Theater against the
(10:48):
backdrop of a society where black women's bodies have been
scrutinized and misrepresented and dismissed and oversexualized and all kinds
of ways misinterpreted. And you were breaking into at the time,
but was a mostly white space. That's amazing in and
(11:08):
of help, But I think what is truly amazing is
that you've done it on your own terms. Yeah, it's
been quite a journey, and there have been people around
me that have seen it clearly, like my first ballet teacher,
Cynthia Bradley, whom I lived with and who saw this
(11:29):
vision from the beginning. I always thought she was this
crazy lady that was super artistic, and I was like, yeah, Okay,
I'm just gonna keep doing what I love. You can
have your visions. But I was in almost this protective
bubble where though I was the only black girl for
the most part in the studios that I trained in
as a young person, Cynthia was really good about not
(11:53):
letting that enter my bubble. There was a lot going
on that I didn't learn about until I was older.
There were parents who were removing their children from the
school because I was doing the lead as a person
of color. I was taking parts away from the child
when they were giving money as board members. You know,
there's a lot of a lot of politics and racism
(12:15):
happening that a lot of black and brown children experienced
to their face at a young age in the ballet world,
and I feel fortunate that I didn't experience that. It
wasn't until I was a professional that I really understood
how rare it was for me to be where I was.
You know, I was the only black woman for the
(12:37):
first decade of my career at ABT, and it was
a lot. It was a lot of learning on the spot,
learning on the job, but also being vulnerable and open
to having mentors come into my life, and being fortunate
enough that people were reaching out to me, black women
reaching out to me outside of the ballet world that
wanted to be a support system. And that's why I
(12:58):
understand the importance of being a mentor for the next generation.
After the break, Copeland and I discussed the scrutiny that
black female bodies and how it's often amplified in the
world of ballet. You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill.
(13:28):
I'm speaking with Misty Copeland, the first black female principal
dancer at the American Ballet Theater we talk about her
book Black Ballerinas and her mission to celebrate dancers of
color who have paved the way. We also get into
how black bodies fit or don't fit the traditional ballet esthetic,
(13:51):
and why Copeland's iconic roles are even more meaningful as
a result. Were you ever told that you didn't have
the right body for ballet? Yes? I still am to
this day. Yes. What's so interesting is that from the
time I started dance, why I was called a prodigy
(14:11):
was that I was being told I had the perfect
ballet body. I was given full scholarships, you know. I
was told, like, you have the right body proportions. And
then all of a sudden, I become a professional and
it's like something switched and I no longer had the
right body. And a lot of that was like deciphering
what that language means. And the more I was exposed
(14:34):
to other dancers of color, other black women in the
ballet world, the more you realize, oh, that's just code
for you don't have the right skin color, and you
will not fit into a cord of ballet. You will
bring imbalance to this white sea of dancers. It was
a lot to take in and like in a ballet company.
(14:55):
There's no mentorship program, there's no guidance. You know. I
moved to New York City straight out of high school
at seventeen on my own, and you're just kind of
thrown into the sea, you know, you sink or swim.
And it was important that I had incredible women that
came into my life that kind of put that life
vest on me and helped me to like figure it out.
(15:18):
So do you think that a part of it, too,
is not just not fitting into the particular static but
also this historic stereotype that we have of black women dancers.
I think about Josephine Baker, who was, you know, able
to do what she was doing because she was considered
(15:40):
to be exotic and that wasn't really what's happening in
ballet was. I mean, the exotic was not what they
were looking for. No. No, it's difficult to change the
way people think ballet should be. And then it's just
it keeps getting repeated, like this is what a ballerina
(16:01):
should look like. She should be fair skinned and soft
and feminine, and black women are not often depicted that
way or given an opportunity to be seen that way,
which is why it's so important, you know, for me
to take on roles like Juliette and Romeo and Juliet
or the white Swan and Swan Lake. These are all
roles that have been kept from Black women for generations
(16:23):
and generations because they're seen as the opposite of what
black women are seen as. I think what happened with
me is that I got to a point where a
lot of black dancers get to where, first of all,
the opportunities stop and you're not surrounded by people who
have been through what you've been through. There's no real
documentation of our history. It's not like we can open
(16:46):
up a history book. Oh, this person went through this,
this person went through this, and you kind of pick
up from where they left off, learned from their experiences.
We don't have that, and I feel like that's something
that I've taken on as a responsibility. You know, I
feel like I'm in this position to create our own
narrative and write our history. And you know, that was
really the reasoning for me writing Black Collars. My journey
(17:09):
to our legacy was to be able to share this
twenty year journey that I've had being a professional with
American Ballet theater. And you know, this wasn't like I
decided to write this book and then I went on
Google six months prior and I started learning. This has
been twenty years of learning on the job, learning from
other black dancers that I'd meet and connect with, and
(17:32):
what dancers came before me. You know, it allows you
to see where I can go because of what they've
done and the doors that have been opened for me.
And there are just so many incredible dancers that people
don't know their names or their contributions to this art form.
What are the names of some of those women. I'm like,
looking at my book right now, there's so many tie
(17:53):
him and as Janet Collins, Deborrah Austin, Raven Wilkinson, Marion Sugette.
You know, they're the dancers today that I felt it
was important to include in the list because it's not
just about our past. It's about the dancers that are
doing it now, that are up in coming, that are
going to continue on our legacies. Erica Loell, Nikisha Fogo,
(18:15):
Ebony Williams. There's so many, and in my book, I
have twenty seven that I featured, and that's not at
all a comprehensive list. But you know, you're only given
a certain number of pages on books, and so I
know you know, but there's there's an incredible list of
(18:36):
black and brown dancers to learn about there. Of course,
when you give us that description of your book and
your work and your thinking, I'm thinking about black girls.
Did you write this book for them? Yes? You know,
of course, everything that I do, I want it to
be for everyone, even if it's if it's different communities
(18:57):
learning about what it is to be a black woman,
what it is to be a black dancer in this world.
It's for everyone. But of course you know from my
first book, my memoir, the through line throughout the entire
book was this is for the little brown girls, you know,
And so of course those are the people that are
often excluded when it comes to opportunities, when it comes
(19:19):
to being nurtured and told they're beautiful and told they're important.
So they're definitely at the top of mind whenever I'm
writing or thinking about the next generation. In a way,
you are writing the history of ballet that hasn't been told.
And I wonder if in that writing you have come
(19:42):
up with your own idea about why there is this
resistance to the presence of the black body. What's behind
that in your opinion, Well, I think for starters, you know,
this is a European art form, and that's kind of
the base of it. So many of the stories and
(20:04):
the ballets that we tell are not a reflection of
our community as black people, and of so many communities,
especially in America. There are the stories of European white
men from the eighteen hundreds, four hundred years later. It's
not really something that you can really grasp because it's
been exposed to so many different cultures over the course
(20:25):
of the time. So, yes, those are the origins, but
that's no longer the limitations of who sees it, who's
influenced by it, who's inspired by it. It's now a
part of the fabric of America when you talk about
how female dancers are portrayed through the eyes of white men,
(20:49):
white European man, and that's where the sexism comes in,
isn't it. Yeah. I was reading an article like a
week ago, and I think it was in the New
York Times about this about, you know the fact that
white men are still completely running the classical ballet world.
You know, there has been some movement but it's something
(21:10):
that needs to be talked about and addressed, and I
think you'll see some real shifts once you get more
diversity at the top. You know, it's not just about
the diversity see on stage, but it's behind the scenes.
It's the board of directors, it's the artistic staff, it's
the teachers at the low levels that are teaching children.
If they don't see themselves reflected and they don't have
people who understand them, then that's when you lose that
(21:32):
connection and people who want to be a part of it.
So it's tackling these issues on every level. When you
join the American Ballot Theater, did you feel like you
had to represent the Wraith at ABT? Yes, But I
(21:53):
never saw that as a negative thing. I never saw
that as something put on me or pressure. It's been
something that I've actively done. From the moment that I
joined ABT. My immediate visceral react action was, oh, my gosh,
well I ever see another black woman alongside me in
(22:13):
this company, and so my goal was getting more brown
girls in the company with me and telling our stories.
While I was in a space where I could be
seen and heard, you could have made a different choice,
I think, and I understand the choice that you made
to go to ABT, but you could have chosen to
(22:33):
go to Dance Theater of Harlaw. I understand they were
courting you to come to Dance Theater of Harlem. Why
did you decide to go to American Ballet Theater. Yeah,
it's a great question. I think from from the beginning,
my teacher, Cynthia Bradley, from the moment that I started dancing,
(22:54):
she was very cognizant of the obstacles that might lie
ahead being a black girl in the ballet world. And
of all the companies in America and Europe, ABT was
the most diverse culturally in terms of dancers were from
and with their training. Most companies are connected to a school.
(23:14):
You have to train through their school in their technique
to get into the company. That's why all the dancers
look similar. But at ABT, they allowed dancers from all
over the world to come to their company, and they
liked that they looked different, and so she felt like
that's a place where she can thrive. So that was
the reason that ABT was what I was working towards.
But Dance of Harlem was always around and Arthur Mitchell
(23:38):
was there supporting me, and I was pretty new to
the company when Arthur called me and asked me to
come take company class and speak to him, and he
knew I was having a difficult time. He understood what
it was to be the only I mean, he was
the only black person in a company at New York
City Ballet and became the first black principal dancer there.
He said to me, like, you know, you could come
(23:59):
here and you could be surrounded by people who look
like you, who will support you. These are unspoken things.
You don't have to have these microaggressions and explain yourself.
And he offered me a solos contract. And my thinking was,
first of all, what Arthur did at New York City
Ballet change the landscape for opportunities for black dancers everywhere,
(24:20):
and then creating dance set of Harlem took that to
a whole new level. And I felt like I had
a purpose being in that space an American ballet theater
to make change that we still haven't made, which is
to exist in these white spaces and succeed and change
the narrative. And I didn't feel that I could do
(24:41):
that completely at dance set of Harlem. You know, I
felt like I would be a part of something incredible
in historic and I'd be surrounded by people who look
like me and I'd feel good inside. But I felt
like I meant to be at ABT and make change there.
And did you speak out there to make change? Yeah?
I mean it's been my whole career, and that's what
(25:01):
I've been doing it for twenty years. You know. It's
it's been learning and navigating and doing it in ways
that are acceptable. You know, it's like any black person
navigating their way through a white construct and learning how
to have those conversations. That's a very intimidating thing to
be a young black girl having conversations with your older,
white male artistic director and being able to articulate yourself
(25:24):
in express without being too aggressive or too overemotional or angry.
You know, all of these things attributed to being a
woman and to being black. And it's been a long process,
and I feel like I'm definitely in a space now
where I'm in a position of power where I can
speak to the truths of so many dancers that feel
(25:44):
they can't because they may be reprimanded for it. I
also think that we're in a different time, you know,
post George Floyd, where it's not just the world that's
you know, that's looking at itself and wanting to take change,
but the ballet world is absolutely doing it. And it's
a good feeling to feel like I'm not the only
person on this platform speaking, but that other dancers of
(26:08):
color feel empowered to do it now. You mentioned George
Floyd and twenty was a racial reckoning for the country.
Have you seen meaningful change in the last couple of
years in the ballet world, change that can translate to
what's going on outside in the world too. Yes, this
(26:31):
is you know, this is the first time that I
feel that we're being exposed. Ballet culture is such a
niche thing and we kind of exist in our own
world and so the people inside of it get away
with a lot of things. And I feel like we've
almost been exposed, you know, the doors have been opened
(26:54):
and people are seeing what we went through, you know,
with this rise of Black Lives Matter, like the ballet
world is like a couple hundred years behind that. So
it's been a moment. But also with the pandemic, it
really I think made the ballet world in particular, step
back and take a look at itself. So I'm hopeful,
(27:14):
but you know, we have to just keep the conversation
going and hold people accountable. It shouldn't just be our
responsibility as black and brown people. Everyone should be contributing
to the changes in evolution. A couple of years ago,
a dancer, Chloe Lopez Gomes won her complaint against the
German Ballet Company for race discrimination. Very recently last year,
(27:39):
Christine fint Roy left Dance Theater of Harlem for the
Boston Ballet and she said, you know, out loud, something
that probably dancers wouldn't have said years ago. But she
says she dances for the other people to change people's lives.
And so I guess I ask you can breakthroughs like yours,
(27:59):
like miss Lopez Gomes, like Miss fint Roys, Can they
change people's lives? Absolutely? Absolutely. I mean I didn't even
have exposure to that, and my life was changed through
this art form. And I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand.
You know, simply by existing, by being a body on
(28:19):
that stage that people can connect to and relate to
and see possibilities. And it may not be connected to ballet,
but they can say I can exist in a space
where there aren't very many, but it's a possibility for me.
I definitely think that all of these stories being accessible
(28:40):
will change lives, are changing lives, and that's why it's
so important for me to continue on these legacies and
share these stories. It's definitely making an impact. Well, I
will just close by saying this. When I was in
law school, I took my first ballet class. It literally
(29:05):
change the way that I sell myself and I sell
my body. And you also have to keep in mind
that I am a farm girl from Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma,
really rural Oklahoma, and I have loved ballet and I
think you're absolutely right that ballet can change people's perspective
(29:29):
of life and of their own bodies and where they belong.
And and in large part that is because of the
work that you're doing that people understand that. So thank
you so much, Thanks for all that you are doing,
and keep up the great work. Thank you so much
(29:51):
for having me this and honor thank you. Mister Copeland's
story reminds us that opportunity and support can change a
person's life and how that in turn can change our world.
Along with her immense talent, determination and hard work, Copeland's
(30:16):
legacy will be her commitment to creating a career on
her own terms. She is inspiring and uplifting the next generation.
We need to give them the support and resources they
need to succeed, resources that are too often lacking for
black and brown girls. Copeland is paying it back and
(30:40):
paying it forward, lifting up the names of the dancers
on whose shoulders she stands, and bringing others along with
her as she diversifies ballet. In the next episode, I
speak with author, educator, and activist Monique Morris about her
work to transform the lives of black and brown girls
(31:04):
and how they're represented in the world, to unpack how
we normalized this expectation that black girls will be loud, sassy, combative,
and sexualized without talking about remedy. Getting Even is a
production of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by
(31:26):
me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board and
Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is
Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Luis
Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive producers
are Mia Lobel and le tal malaud Our Director of
(31:50):
Development is Justine Lang. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
(32:14):
all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If
you love this show in others from Pushkin Industries, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you
can hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free
(32:36):
and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting
Even show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen
Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to
Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other
Pushkin shows. Add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign
(00:35):
up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
or at Pushkin dot Fm. It's difficult to change the
way people think ballet should be, and I felt like
I had a purpose, which is to exist in these
white spaces and succeed and change the narrative. That's ballet
(01:01):
dancer Misty Copeland. She made history in twenty fifteen when
she became the first black woman ever to be promoted
to principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater. When she's
off stage, Copeland is committed to making more communities feel
like bay belong in the world of ballet. I feel
(01:23):
like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility.
Copeland's interest in music and movement drew her to ballet
at a young age. It was her creative outlet and escape,
and as she progressed, ballet both nurtured and challenged her.
I attribute my success, the person that I am, all
of this to so many of the qualities within the
(01:46):
ballet structure. That gave me the tools to be successful,
not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
as a woman, as a leader in my community. I'm
Anita Hill. This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality
(02:07):
and what it takes to get there. On Getting Even,
I speak with people who are improving our imperfect world,
people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode,
Missy Copeland and I discuss how she journeyed from the
local boys and Girls club to the American Ballet Theater,
(02:28):
maneuvering through racist politics along the way. We also discuss
how she uses that very platform to empower black and
brown girls. Today. You were the first person on my
list to interview, and it's really a tribute to all
(02:48):
of the wonderful things that you've done and that you
continue to do in your professional life, as well as
the way you present outside of the ballet world. Thank you. So,
I want to just get started with your story. Am
I correct that you started ballet at thirteen? Yes? You are,
(03:09):
And I say it that way because it seems to
me that most of the people who are in those
beginning classes are like five years old. Yes, yes, that's true.
So what was it like for you those first few
years as somebody who was starting much later than some
of the people who you were probably dancing with. You know,
(03:32):
it was an opportunity that I feel like I was
craving and waiting for. Didn't realize it, you know, coming
from the communities that I grew up in, being in
a single parent home and being one of six children.
But I mean I was so introverted. I had a
lot of shame that was kind of surrounding me in
terms of not wanting people to know the circumstances that
(03:56):
we were living in, and so I became this like
shell of a person. I was not involved in any
any extracurricular activities, anything artistic or physical in terms of sports,
until I decided at like twelve and a half that
out of nowhere that I was going to audition for
the drill team, and not just auditioned to be on
(04:18):
the team, but I was going to audition to be
captain of the team. And you know, I think that
it was this evolution of having music in my life,
which was constantly around the house, and I was always
drawn to lyrics and it was like, these are the
words I wish I could speak, and things I'm feeling,
but I'm not capable. I don't have the tools, and
(04:40):
movement became this outlet with the chaos in my home,
whether it was abuse, instability, all of that. So I
auditioned for the drill team and I made captain. A
family was shocked. They're like, to you understand that you're
going to be on stage performing for people. And it
was interesting because being on a stage was the one
(05:00):
space that I felt protected. I felt like I could
express myself and communicate to the audience, but I didn't
have to see them. They weren't going to respond in
a way that I had to address what they were
thinking or their opinion. The teacher who was running the
drill team saw potential in me, and she suggested I
take a free ballet class that was being offered at
(05:21):
my local boys and Girls club. So it was at
thirteen years old that I really entered into ballet. I
took my first ballet class on a basketball court at
my club, and the teacher, who was teaching from the
local ballet school, she immediately said, I think you're a
prodigy and I want to take you into my school
full scholarship. She eventually invited me to live with her,
(05:43):
and from the moment that I stepped into her studio,
the goal was for me to dance professionally, and American
Ballet theater was always the goal. So it was a
clear vision of what I was working towards. But I
just fell in love with this thing that gave me
a purpose, gave me a way to grow as a
(06:04):
human being, and I just feel like it saved my life.
You said so many things that caught my attention. You
said there was a teacher, there was music that said
what you wanted to say but couldn't didn't have the
artistry to say it. And you said boys and Girls Club.
So those seem to be the really important elements of
(06:26):
your life that helped you in what you describe as
an unstable situation. Absolutely, and all of those things are
still so important in my life. So what music were
you listening to. There's a lot of soul and R
and B and hip hop being played around the house.
(06:48):
It was an array of music, But like Anita Baker
and Shade and Aretha Franklin, there's a lot of stuff.
The one that I really connected with was when Mariah
Carey's debut album came out, and you know, it was
the first time that I saw a biracial woman of
her caliber, her talent, her exposure, and I felt like
(07:11):
I could see myself in her. It wasn't a conscious
thing at the time, Like, it wasn't until I was
an adult that I could really decipher what that draw was.
That's the importance of representation. It allows for you to
see possibilities and it allows you to dream. And you know,
Mariah as a friend of mine now and it's just
(07:32):
funny to be able to like share these things with her.
And she's always like, I'm not taking credit for your
ballet career. I'm like, but Maria, you literally were like
the catalysts for everything, you know, for this, like belief
in myself that I could do this thing that I
knew nothing about, and seeing someone who looked like me
(07:53):
succeeding and talented and gifted. Well, you know. But that's
an amazing thing, is that that there are so many
different influences in each of our lives, but that you
could connect those influences with what you ultimately came to do.
I also note that that you had an outlet for
what was going on in your mind about what your
(08:15):
capabilities were, and how important it is for people to
have ballet or whatever it is that they set their
mind to do, have an opportunity to find it. Yes,
but I imagine that ballet was not available for everyone
in your area. You're absolutely right, and that's why I'm
(08:37):
so passionate about, first of all, identifying the beauty in
classical dance and all the positives that there are in
terms of like how it helped me as a young
person to develop as a human being. That's why I'm
such an advocate for creating opportunities for it to be
accessible to more communities and then kind of changing the
(09:01):
narrative and the outlook on how these communities see dance
and that they do belong in those spaces. You know,
I attribut my success the person that I am all
of this too, So many of the qualities within the
ballet structure that gave me the tools to be successful
not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person,
(09:21):
as a woman, as a leader in my community, and
for me as Misty the Black Ballerina. It's kind of
picking apart what are the things that need to change
and evolve in ballet, but what are the amazing things
about it that can help so many children right out
of the box. Let's say you were thinking way ahead.
(09:45):
I mean not that you were just going to learn ballet,
but that you were going to have a career in ballet. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean I think that says something about who you
are too. You know, you had an ambition, you were ambitious.
I don't think that consciously I was. I was like,
I'm focused, I'm going to be a professional, But it
(10:06):
was like, I love this and there's an no way
I could live my life without having it. And then
it evolved into learning about the history of ballet, learning
about the history of American Ballet theater, how I could
possibly fit into it. Then being brought to my first
live performance seeing ABT when I was fifteen years old,
and saying, I can see it clearly, this is exactly
(10:28):
what I want to do. These are what my goals are.
But again, it was having an incredible support system and
structure around me that allowed me to see those things clearly.
And you were making that kind of decision about where
you would go with the American Ballet Theater against the
(10:48):
backdrop of a society where black women's bodies have been
scrutinized and misrepresented and dismissed and oversexualized and all kinds
of ways misinterpreted. And you were breaking into at the time,
but was a mostly white space. That's amazing in and
(11:08):
of help, But I think what is truly amazing is
that you've done it on your own terms. Yeah, it's
been quite a journey, and there have been people around
me that have seen it clearly, like my first ballet teacher,
Cynthia Bradley, whom I lived with and who saw this
(11:29):
vision from the beginning. I always thought she was this
crazy lady that was super artistic, and I was like, yeah, Okay,
I'm just gonna keep doing what I love. You can
have your visions. But I was in almost this protective
bubble where though I was the only black girl for
the most part in the studios that I trained in
as a young person, Cynthia was really good about not
(11:53):
letting that enter my bubble. There was a lot going
on that I didn't learn about until I was older.
There were parents who were removing their children from the
school because I was doing the lead as a person
of color. I was taking parts away from the child
when they were giving money as board members. You know,
there's a lot of a lot of politics and racism
(12:15):
happening that a lot of black and brown children experienced
to their face at a young age in the ballet world,
and I feel fortunate that I didn't experience that. It
wasn't until I was a professional that I really understood
how rare it was for me to be where I was.
You know, I was the only black woman for the
(12:37):
first decade of my career at ABT, and it was
a lot. It was a lot of learning on the spot,
learning on the job, but also being vulnerable and open
to having mentors come into my life, and being fortunate
enough that people were reaching out to me, black women
reaching out to me outside of the ballet world that
wanted to be a support system. And that's why I
(12:58):
understand the importance of being a mentor for the next generation.
After the break, Copeland and I discussed the scrutiny that
black female bodies and how it's often amplified in the
world of ballet. You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill.
(13:28):
I'm speaking with Misty Copeland, the first black female principal
dancer at the American Ballet Theater we talk about her
book Black Ballerinas and her mission to celebrate dancers of
color who have paved the way. We also get into
how black bodies fit or don't fit the traditional ballet esthetic,
(13:51):
and why Copeland's iconic roles are even more meaningful as
a result. Were you ever told that you didn't have
the right body for ballet? Yes? I still am to
this day. Yes. What's so interesting is that from the
time I started dance, why I was called a prodigy
(14:11):
was that I was being told I had the perfect
ballet body. I was given full scholarships, you know. I
was told, like, you have the right body proportions. And
then all of a sudden, I become a professional and
it's like something switched and I no longer had the
right body. And a lot of that was like deciphering
what that language means. And the more I was exposed
(14:34):
to other dancers of color, other black women in the
ballet world, the more you realize, oh, that's just code
for you don't have the right skin color, and you
will not fit into a cord of ballet. You will
bring imbalance to this white sea of dancers. It was
a lot to take in and like in a ballet company.
(14:55):
There's no mentorship program, there's no guidance. You know. I
moved to New York City straight out of high school
at seventeen on my own, and you're just kind of
thrown into the sea, you know, you sink or swim.
And it was important that I had incredible women that
came into my life that kind of put that life
vest on me and helped me to like figure it out.
(15:18):
So do you think that a part of it, too,
is not just not fitting into the particular static but
also this historic stereotype that we have of black women dancers.
I think about Josephine Baker, who was, you know, able
to do what she was doing because she was considered
(15:40):
to be exotic and that wasn't really what's happening in
ballet was. I mean, the exotic was not what they
were looking for. No. No, it's difficult to change the
way people think ballet should be. And then it's just
it keeps getting repeated, like this is what a ballerina
(16:01):
should look like. She should be fair skinned and soft
and feminine, and black women are not often depicted that
way or given an opportunity to be seen that way,
which is why it's so important, you know, for me
to take on roles like Juliette and Romeo and Juliet
or the white Swan and Swan Lake. These are all
roles that have been kept from Black women for generations
(16:23):
and generations because they're seen as the opposite of what
black women are seen as. I think what happened with
me is that I got to a point where a
lot of black dancers get to where, first of all,
the opportunities stop and you're not surrounded by people who
have been through what you've been through. There's no real
documentation of our history. It's not like we can open
(16:46):
up a history book. Oh, this person went through this,
this person went through this, and you kind of pick
up from where they left off, learned from their experiences.
We don't have that, and I feel like that's something
that I've taken on as a responsibility. You know, I
feel like I'm in this position to create our own
narrative and write our history. And you know, that was
really the reasoning for me writing Black Collars. My journey
(17:09):
to our legacy was to be able to share this
twenty year journey that I've had being a professional with
American Ballet theater. And you know, this wasn't like I
decided to write this book and then I went on
Google six months prior and I started learning. This has
been twenty years of learning on the job, learning from
other black dancers that I'd meet and connect with, and
(17:32):
what dancers came before me. You know, it allows you
to see where I can go because of what they've
done and the doors that have been opened for me.
And there are just so many incredible dancers that people
don't know their names or their contributions to this art form.
What are the names of some of those women. I'm like,
looking at my book right now, there's so many tie
(17:53):
him and as Janet Collins, Deborrah Austin, Raven Wilkinson, Marion Sugette.
You know, they're the dancers today that I felt it
was important to include in the list because it's not
just about our past. It's about the dancers that are
doing it now, that are up in coming, that are
going to continue on our legacies. Erica Loell, Nikisha Fogo,
(18:15):
Ebony Williams. There's so many, and in my book, I
have twenty seven that I featured, and that's not at
all a comprehensive list. But you know, you're only given
a certain number of pages on books, and so I
know you know, but there's there's an incredible list of
(18:36):
black and brown dancers to learn about there. Of course,
when you give us that description of your book and
your work and your thinking, I'm thinking about black girls.
Did you write this book for them? Yes? You know,
of course, everything that I do, I want it to
be for everyone, even if it's if it's different communities
(18:57):
learning about what it is to be a black woman,
what it is to be a black dancer in this world.
It's for everyone. But of course you know from my
first book, my memoir, the through line throughout the entire
book was this is for the little brown girls, you know,
And so of course those are the people that are
often excluded when it comes to opportunities, when it comes
(19:19):
to being nurtured and told they're beautiful and told they're important.
So they're definitely at the top of mind whenever I'm
writing or thinking about the next generation. In a way,
you are writing the history of ballet that hasn't been told.
And I wonder if in that writing you have come
(19:42):
up with your own idea about why there is this
resistance to the presence of the black body. What's behind
that in your opinion, Well, I think for starters, you know,
this is a European art form, and that's kind of
the base of it. So many of the stories and
(20:04):
the ballets that we tell are not a reflection of
our community as black people, and of so many communities,
especially in America. There are the stories of European white
men from the eighteen hundreds, four hundred years later. It's
not really something that you can really grasp because it's
been exposed to so many different cultures over the course
(20:25):
of the time. So, yes, those are the origins, but
that's no longer the limitations of who sees it, who's
influenced by it, who's inspired by it. It's now a
part of the fabric of America when you talk about
how female dancers are portrayed through the eyes of white men,
(20:49):
white European man, and that's where the sexism comes in,
isn't it. Yeah. I was reading an article like a
week ago, and I think it was in the New
York Times about this about, you know the fact that
white men are still completely running the classical ballet world.
You know, there has been some movement but it's something
(21:10):
that needs to be talked about and addressed, and I
think you'll see some real shifts once you get more
diversity at the top. You know, it's not just about
the diversity see on stage, but it's behind the scenes.
It's the board of directors, it's the artistic staff, it's
the teachers at the low levels that are teaching children.
If they don't see themselves reflected and they don't have
people who understand them, then that's when you lose that
(21:32):
connection and people who want to be a part of it.
So it's tackling these issues on every level. When you
join the American Ballot Theater, did you feel like you
had to represent the Wraith at ABT? Yes, But I
(21:53):
never saw that as a negative thing. I never saw
that as something put on me or pressure. It's been
something that I've actively done. From the moment that I
joined ABT. My immediate visceral react action was, oh, my gosh,
well I ever see another black woman alongside me in
(22:13):
this company, and so my goal was getting more brown
girls in the company with me and telling our stories.
While I was in a space where I could be
seen and heard, you could have made a different choice,
I think, and I understand the choice that you made
to go to ABT, but you could have chosen to
(22:33):
go to Dance Theater of Harlaw. I understand they were
courting you to come to Dance Theater of Harlem. Why
did you decide to go to American Ballet Theater. Yeah,
it's a great question. I think from from the beginning,
my teacher, Cynthia Bradley, from the moment that I started dancing,
(22:54):
she was very cognizant of the obstacles that might lie
ahead being a black girl in the ballet world. And
of all the companies in America and Europe, ABT was
the most diverse culturally in terms of dancers were from
and with their training. Most companies are connected to a school.
(23:14):
You have to train through their school in their technique
to get into the company. That's why all the dancers
look similar. But at ABT, they allowed dancers from all
over the world to come to their company, and they
liked that they looked different, and so she felt like
that's a place where she can thrive. So that was
the reason that ABT was what I was working towards.
But Dance of Harlem was always around and Arthur Mitchell
(23:38):
was there supporting me, and I was pretty new to
the company when Arthur called me and asked me to
come take company class and speak to him, and he
knew I was having a difficult time. He understood what
it was to be the only I mean, he was
the only black person in a company at New York
City Ballet and became the first black principal dancer there.
He said to me, like, you know, you could come
(23:59):
here and you could be surrounded by people who look
like you, who will support you. These are unspoken things.
You don't have to have these microaggressions and explain yourself.
And he offered me a solos contract. And my thinking was,
first of all, what Arthur did at New York City
Ballet change the landscape for opportunities for black dancers everywhere,
(24:20):
and then creating dance set of Harlem took that to
a whole new level. And I felt like I had
a purpose being in that space an American ballet theater
to make change that we still haven't made, which is
to exist in these white spaces and succeed and change
the narrative. And I didn't feel that I could do
(24:41):
that completely at dance set of Harlem. You know, I
felt like I would be a part of something incredible
in historic and I'd be surrounded by people who look
like me and I'd feel good inside. But I felt
like I meant to be at ABT and make change there.
And did you speak out there to make change? Yeah?
I mean it's been my whole career, and that's what
(25:01):
I've been doing it for twenty years. You know. It's
it's been learning and navigating and doing it in ways
that are acceptable. You know, it's like any black person
navigating their way through a white construct and learning how
to have those conversations. That's a very intimidating thing to
be a young black girl having conversations with your older,
white male artistic director and being able to articulate yourself
(25:24):
in express without being too aggressive or too overemotional or angry.
You know, all of these things attributed to being a
woman and to being black. And it's been a long process,
and I feel like I'm definitely in a space now
where I'm in a position of power where I can
speak to the truths of so many dancers that feel
(25:44):
they can't because they may be reprimanded for it. I
also think that we're in a different time, you know,
post George Floyd, where it's not just the world that's
you know, that's looking at itself and wanting to take change,
but the ballet world is absolutely doing it. And it's
a good feeling to feel like I'm not the only
person on this platform speaking, but that other dancers of
(26:08):
color feel empowered to do it now. You mentioned George
Floyd and twenty was a racial reckoning for the country.
Have you seen meaningful change in the last couple of
years in the ballet world, change that can translate to
what's going on outside in the world too. Yes, this
(26:31):
is you know, this is the first time that I
feel that we're being exposed. Ballet culture is such a
niche thing and we kind of exist in our own
world and so the people inside of it get away
with a lot of things. And I feel like we've
almost been exposed, you know, the doors have been opened
(26:54):
and people are seeing what we went through, you know,
with this rise of Black Lives Matter, like the ballet
world is like a couple hundred years behind that. So
it's been a moment. But also with the pandemic, it
really I think made the ballet world in particular, step
back and take a look at itself. So I'm hopeful,
(27:14):
but you know, we have to just keep the conversation
going and hold people accountable. It shouldn't just be our
responsibility as black and brown people. Everyone should be contributing
to the changes in evolution. A couple of years ago,
a dancer, Chloe Lopez Gomes won her complaint against the
German Ballet Company for race discrimination. Very recently last year,
(27:39):
Christine fint Roy left Dance Theater of Harlem for the
Boston Ballet and she said, you know, out loud, something
that probably dancers wouldn't have said years ago. But she
says she dances for the other people to change people's lives.
And so I guess I ask you can breakthroughs like yours,
(27:59):
like miss Lopez Gomes, like Miss fint Roys, Can they
change people's lives? Absolutely? Absolutely. I mean I didn't even
have exposure to that, and my life was changed through
this art form. And I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand.
You know, simply by existing, by being a body on
(28:19):
that stage that people can connect to and relate to
and see possibilities. And it may not be connected to ballet,
but they can say I can exist in a space
where there aren't very many, but it's a possibility for me.
I definitely think that all of these stories being accessible
(28:40):
will change lives, are changing lives, and that's why it's
so important for me to continue on these legacies and
share these stories. It's definitely making an impact. Well, I
will just close by saying this. When I was in
law school, I took my first ballet class. It literally
(29:05):
change the way that I sell myself and I sell
my body. And you also have to keep in mind
that I am a farm girl from Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma,
really rural Oklahoma, and I have loved ballet and I
think you're absolutely right that ballet can change people's perspective
(29:29):
of life and of their own bodies and where they belong.
And and in large part that is because of the
work that you're doing that people understand that. So thank
you so much, Thanks for all that you are doing,
and keep up the great work. Thank you so much
(29:51):
for having me this and honor thank you. Mister Copeland's
story reminds us that opportunity and support can change a
person's life and how that in turn can change our world.
Along with her immense talent, determination and hard work, Copeland's
(30:16):
legacy will be her commitment to creating a career on
her own terms. She is inspiring and uplifting the next generation.
We need to give them the support and resources they
need to succeed, resources that are too often lacking for
black and brown girls. Copeland is paying it back and
(30:40):
paying it forward, lifting up the names of the dancers
on whose shoulders she stands, and bringing others along with
her as she diversifies ballet. In the next episode, I
speak with author, educator, and activist Monique Morris about her
work to transform the lives of black and brown girls
(31:04):
and how they're represented in the world, to unpack how
we normalized this expectation that black girls will be loud, sassy, combative,
and sexualized without talking about remedy. Getting Even is a
production of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by
(31:26):
me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board and
Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is
Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Luis
Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive producers
are Mia Lobel and le tal malaud Our Director of
(31:50):
Development is Justine Lang. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane,
Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg.
You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
(32:14):
all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If
you love this show in others from Pushkin Industries, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you
can hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free
(32:36):
and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting
Even show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm.
To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.