March 20, 2025 • 35 mins
Five years ago a police officer tried to stop Derek Chauvin from murdering George Floyd. Why didn’t he try harder?
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death
of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in
a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to
run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm
just going to identify everybody in the room here for
the record. Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one
FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to
arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth
in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give
a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos
(01:03):
of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall
one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS
i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that
the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we
drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and
sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got
there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business
(01:48):
there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still.
Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he,
goes they gave me.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
This it's a big.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's
it's he's in the car over, there you, know go
get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you,
know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you,
know just head back and we'll take care of.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the
street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in
the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his.
Flashlight the men turn and see the.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat
looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said
that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a.
Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked
up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked
on the glass and the driver was sitting with his
(02:40):
hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like,
this AND i, said let me see your other, hand
AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand
he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know,
oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his
hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i
took my gun out and you, know AND i, said
let me see your your other buck of, hand put
(03:02):
your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not
sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
AND i don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his
hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took
a step, back AND i was, Like.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Jesus and what are you.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist,
history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode
is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder
Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look
(03:36):
at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes
of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas,
lane who at the time had been a fully fledged
member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days
(04:01):
may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely
minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just
after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up
to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him
sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks
(04:23):
floyd over to the squad car and puts him in
the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in
the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try
to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls,
Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much
With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly
enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on.
(04:46):
Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe
on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep
him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore
they call ems a second time and upgrade their request
To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate
response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is
(05:10):
nothing out of the.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than
just checking his?
Speaker 4 (05:16):
MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know
this could be possibly excited delirium or.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have
learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme,
agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up
because he might be in medical.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was
having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On
but you thought he was passing.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane
turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing,
well and.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that
suggestion received by your?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him
here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know
but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll
him on his, side.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
Just to.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i
had previously.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on
his side for recovery position or.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can
Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you
want him on his, side meaning should we roll him
over so he can?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying
put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the
excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming,
OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think
(07:20):
he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off.
Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once,
again want to roll him on his, side as, in
he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to
do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the.
(07:41):
Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane
sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative
statement we should put him on his. Side he has
to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens.
It should we should we put him on his? Side
he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but
(08:04):
he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM
i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then,
finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive.
Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest
(08:26):
causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a,
cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try
to let the captain, know but he would do it
in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take
the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those
cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty
(08:47):
Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it
was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line
for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first
officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice
on its wings and should go back for de. Icing
listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain,
(09:10):
look how the ice is just hanging on this back back.
There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries,
again see all those icicles on the back there and.
Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time,
boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de
(09:30):
ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security
that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to
the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again
since we've been setting here a. While the first officer
starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a,
question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those.
(09:54):
Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting
closer and closer to what is really on his, mind
which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very
end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff
as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down,
(10:17):
larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane
is in exactly the same position as that first officer
on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of
the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man
on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a
superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening
(10:39):
who is either incapable of processing any new information or
doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they
can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates
the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial,
(11:00):
day picked up on this very.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're
something thinking about.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
What of ented you from just kind of taking charge
of that and making the.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and
what he was saying like this is we're going to
hold here and tell you.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four.
Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You heard in contact with him before the.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
State him meaning children, Again, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay so.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
He was one of the other training offers in the
precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With
chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he
took me found how The Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain.
Calls he says couldn't go, well.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
But somebody who used him as a resource during your
ten day.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Evaluation, yeah there was a.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Few calls WHERE i was with another train, officer the
think the advice on how the best dandel with.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only
been on the force for four, days that he was
a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's
That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice
how do you defy someone in that? Position not long,
(12:48):
ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave
an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie
From Barstool.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that.
Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one
and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said,
Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking
j and these bad.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think
a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include
someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW
i used to, say it was like you would have
ringside tickets to the greatest show On.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan
was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take
reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some,
Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to
promotion was so often blocked by his.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT
i WAS i had the most complaints in the.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
City is that why he next to?
Speaker 7 (13:52):
You?
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Probably, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
Probably.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the
way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts
yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization
called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of
a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand
(14:17):
complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty
eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking
at the list is that the distribution of problematic police
officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those
quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across
(14:38):
all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a
few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority
have almost. None if you made a graph out of
the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long
low line stretching as far as the eye could, see
hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end
(14:59):
when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would,
say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and
who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry,
finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and
seventy five.
Speaker 8 (15:17):
Complaints do you remember the war the day that you
decide to go on the?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Take so to? Speak?
Speaker 6 (15:23):
Yeah can you get into that?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
One?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh,
district chased a guy in there with a, gun and
uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up
kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there
were about eight of, us and took the money out
of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't,
know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER
(15:48):
i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt
i'm not taking it from you know your.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for
tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against
a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a
million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As
Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that
much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out
(16:15):
to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has
twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three
handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets
evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat.
Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who
(16:37):
got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's
an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super.
Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next.
Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average
that group of one hundred and eighty six each had
eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last,
(17:02):
Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole
chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale
most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted
such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose
that much of a danger to. Others but there are
a very small number of people, who for reasons we
don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive
(17:24):
amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause.
OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's
super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you
figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask.
Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where
(17:44):
everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the,
Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where
my problem is a very small number of very rotten.
Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny,
tales and policing is most definitely fat.
Speaker 9 (18:04):
TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago
we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen.
Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops
were in the top six percent of the police. Force
they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct
(18:24):
and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars
before the.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if
you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast.
Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van,
dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force,
peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for
(18:49):
no apparent.
Speaker 9 (18:50):
Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small
percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not
only would you have saved, lives you would have saved
tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all
of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest
in the, city how it layered into these.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Things it's not just though that the officers at the
very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone.
Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others
people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to
do bad things as.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that
show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually
affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over,
Time i'm going to look more like.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was
part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens
Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this
spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data
and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines
between the people who worked. Together they found that if
(19:59):
there was no one in your network who received a
use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a
use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had
even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle
your chances of being accused of violence went up by
twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the
(20:22):
problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat.
Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat.
Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's
a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer
in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills
over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that,
(20:47):
night if the second squad car never got, called if
the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his,
Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have
rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption
of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George.
Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the.
(21:09):
Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Speaker 7 (21:11):
CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that,
evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that
Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted.
Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role
lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.
Speaker 7 (21:39):
DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When
George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah
and then he's sitting right there next To king When
king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they
both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes
after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think
(22:02):
that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable
not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort
of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is
on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even
more than a few years on the earth to recognize
(22:24):
that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone
mean and on his.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years
in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig
and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some
portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i
have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a
rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries
(22:49):
to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer
is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't
all of us in other situations done a version of
the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we
should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think
is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can
(23:12):
all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad
apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters
which is why the first step in any attempt to
fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to
get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders
contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop
(23:35):
Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if
only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died
(23:56):
there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis
peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned
hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and
one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the
mayor Of.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people
that came to my home and they demanded THAT i
come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was
not in the habit of avoiding my position on the,
(24:34):
topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or,
so Said, HEY i could get out there and just
tell the.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been
elected mayor three years, earlier.
Speaker 8 (24:47):
AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There
they called me up to the front and asked IF
i would defund the. Police and at the, time this
was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them
what they meant by, it and they, say, well why
don't you get.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Rid of the.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND
i got shamed and.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on
the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly
through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.
Speaker 8 (25:26):
BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style
walking through a ton of people that were throwing things
at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN
i did the right. Thing there was no question in
my mind that refusing to defund the police was the
right thing to.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail,
yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at,
large but if the problem is a small number of bad,
apples then what sense is there in upending the whole.
Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat.
Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in,
(26:04):
Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what
the mayor. Said one of the first of the many
press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd
unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the,
room which is the police, union there won't be a
culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little
(26:24):
bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when
you said, that what did you.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with
this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange
for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit
of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's
(26:51):
keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have
these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that
the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously
be with the.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation
or the union having more authority than it. Should has
become a common complaint in many of the cities as.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get
rid of bad.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the
nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief
of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was,
killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post
you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was
a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.
Speaker 6 (27:43):
Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article
is that we as a, democracy in all the societies
in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i,
worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief
simply firing someone who deserves to be.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief
of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver
he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department
in his more than eight years as, chief there were
sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL
a very small number of his officers were proving to
(28:24):
be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems
he caught them lying on their field, reports on and.
On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the.
Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with
a clean, record so it was possible for them to
get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired
(28:47):
but then in three of those, cases his decision was
reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who
he thought were not worthy of a role in law,
enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that
many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper
(29:08):
internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the
police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in
investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first
round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough
for stories to be straightened, out and before that first,
(29:30):
interview in some, cities the police department has to hand
over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to
the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual
in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he
ran into this problem when he was called in to
clean up The Miami Beach Police.
Speaker 6 (29:50):
Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over
all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management
has and what management can, prove and you can tailor
your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible.
Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your,
(30:13):
job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Law did they change that provision in your?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Time?
Speaker 6 (30:20):
There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to
improve the quality of policing In Mayo?
Speaker 6 (30:29):
Beach it makes it extremely.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the,
profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the
ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need
an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or
who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against.
(30:53):
Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs
all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the
interests of the many in the thin tail has ended
up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.
Speaker 10 (31:08):
TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad
cops more than good.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And
boston police.
Speaker 10 (31:18):
Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages
from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should
have happened ten years.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police
chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't.
Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of.
All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many,
cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire
(31:50):
process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial,
judge but with an arbitrator that the union.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Plays a role in.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law
professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list
of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on
appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven,
Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d.
(32:24):
C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven,
percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy.
Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis
in the years leading up to the death Of George.
Speaker 8 (32:43):
Floyd there are more than a few instances when we
have terminated someone it works its way up through that,
arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we.
Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough.
Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton
of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately.
(33:06):
Lose that person comes back on how does that help?
Culture because that same person is going to talk to
all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING
i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making
a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision
overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a
police department and shift the. Culture they got to be
(33:28):
able to set the.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens
when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't
suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of
may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple
for a long. Time you heard the tape in the
last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over
(33:49):
the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required,
stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him
on the ground and put his knee on his neck
while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason
that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say,
Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so
(34:09):
the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more
years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner
of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in
his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped,
breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple,
times but then he just gives up and sits there
(34:32):
On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history
(34:53):
is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph.
Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick
mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our
executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix
and L. Hafey credit Cone I'm Malcolm. Gabba get add
(35:22):
free episodes Of Revision's history by subscribing To Pushkin. Plus
sign up on the show page On Apple podcasts or
at pushkin Dot, fm Splash. Plus Pushkin plus subscribers can
access ad free, episodes full, audiobooks exclusive, binges and bonus
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Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death
of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in
a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to
run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm
just going to identify everybody in the room here for
the record. Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one
FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to
arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth
in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give
a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos
(01:03):
of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall
one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS
i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that
the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we
drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and
sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got
there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business
(01:48):
there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still.
Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he,
goes they gave me.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
This it's a big.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's
it's he's in the car over, there you, know go
get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you,
know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you,
know just head back and we'll take care of.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the
street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in
the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his.
Flashlight the men turn and see the.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat
looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said
that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a.
Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked
up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked
on the glass and the driver was sitting with his
(02:40):
hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like,
this AND i, said let me see your other, hand
AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand
he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know,
oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his
hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i
took my gun out and you, know AND i, said
let me see your your other buck of, hand put
(03:02):
your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not
sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
AND i don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his
hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took
a step, back AND i was, Like.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Jesus and what are you.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist,
history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode
is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder
Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look
(03:36):
at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes
of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas,
lane who at the time had been a fully fledged
member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days
(04:01):
may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely
minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just
after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up
to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him
sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks
(04:23):
floyd over to the squad car and puts him in
the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in
the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try
to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls,
Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much
With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly
enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on.
(04:46):
Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe
on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep
him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore
they call ems a second time and upgrade their request
To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate
response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is
(05:10):
nothing out of the.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than
just checking his?
Speaker 4 (05:16):
MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know
this could be possibly excited delirium or.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have
learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme,
agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up
because he might be in medical.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was
having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On
but you thought he was passing.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane
turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing,
well and.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that
suggestion received by your?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him
here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know
but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll
him on his, side.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
Just to.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i
had previously.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on
his side for recovery position or.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can
Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you
want him on his, side meaning should we roll him
over so he can?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying
put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the
excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming,
OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think
(07:20):
he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off.
Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once,
again want to roll him on his, side as, in
he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to
do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the.
(07:41):
Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane
sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative
statement we should put him on his. Side he has
to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens.
It should we should we put him on his? Side
he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but
(08:04):
he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM
i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then,
finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive.
Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest
(08:26):
causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a,
cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try
to let the captain, know but he would do it
in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take
the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those
cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty
(08:47):
Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it
was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line
for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first
officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice
on its wings and should go back for de. Icing
listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain,
(09:10):
look how the ice is just hanging on this back back.
There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries,
again see all those icicles on the back there and.
Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time,
boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de
(09:30):
ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security
that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to
the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again
since we've been setting here a. While the first officer
starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a,
question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those.
(09:54):
Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting
closer and closer to what is really on his, mind
which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very
end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff
as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down,
(10:17):
larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane
is in exactly the same position as that first officer
on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of
the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man
on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a
superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening
(10:39):
who is either incapable of processing any new information or
doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they
can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates
the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial,
(11:00):
day picked up on this very.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're
something thinking about.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
What of ented you from just kind of taking charge
of that and making the.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and
what he was saying like this is we're going to
hold here and tell you.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four.
Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You heard in contact with him before the.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
State him meaning children, Again, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay so.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
He was one of the other training offers in the
precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With
chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he
took me found how The Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain.
Calls he says couldn't go, well.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
But somebody who used him as a resource during your
ten day.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Evaluation, yeah there was a.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Few calls WHERE i was with another train, officer the
think the advice on how the best dandel with.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only
been on the force for four, days that he was
a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's
That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice
how do you defy someone in that? Position not long,
(12:48):
ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave
an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie
From Barstool.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that.
Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one
and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said,
Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking
j and these bad.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think
a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include
someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW
i used to, say it was like you would have
ringside tickets to the greatest show On.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan
was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take
reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some,
Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to
promotion was so often blocked by his.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT
i WAS i had the most complaints in the.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
City is that why he next to?
Speaker 7 (13:52):
You?
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Probably, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:54):
Probably.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the
way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts
yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization
called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of
a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand
(14:17):
complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty
eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking
at the list is that the distribution of problematic police
officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those
quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across
(14:38):
all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a
few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority
have almost. None if you made a graph out of
the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long
low line stretching as far as the eye could, see
hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end
(14:59):
when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would,
say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and
who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry,
finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and
seventy five.
Speaker 8 (15:17):
Complaints do you remember the war the day that you
decide to go on the?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Take so to? Speak?
Speaker 6 (15:23):
Yeah can you get into that?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
One?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh,
district chased a guy in there with a, gun and
uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up
kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there
were about eight of, us and took the money out
of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't,
know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER
(15:48):
i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt
i'm not taking it from you know your.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for
tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against
a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a
million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As
Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that
much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out
(16:15):
to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has
twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three
handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets
evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat.
Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who
(16:37):
got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's
an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super.
Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next.
Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average
that group of one hundred and eighty six each had
eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last,
(17:02):
Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole
chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale
most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted
such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose
that much of a danger to. Others but there are
a very small number of people, who for reasons we
don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive
(17:24):
amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause.
OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's
super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you
figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask.
Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where
(17:44):
everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the,
Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where
my problem is a very small number of very rotten.
Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny,
tales and policing is most definitely fat.
Speaker 9 (18:04):
TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago
we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen.
Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops
were in the top six percent of the police. Force
they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct
(18:24):
and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars
before the.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if
you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast.
Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van,
dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force,
peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for
(18:49):
no apparent.
Speaker 9 (18:50):
Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small
percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not
only would you have saved, lives you would have saved
tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all
of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest
in the, city how it layered into these.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Things it's not just though that the officers at the
very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone.
Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others
people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to
do bad things as.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that
show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually
affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over,
Time i'm going to look more like.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was
part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens
Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this
spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data
and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines
between the people who worked. Together they found that if
(19:59):
there was no one in your network who received a
use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a
use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had
even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle
your chances of being accused of violence went up by
twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the
(20:22):
problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat.
Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat.
Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's
a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer
in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills
over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that,
(20:47):
night if the second squad car never got, called if
the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his,
Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have
rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption
of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George.
Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the.
(21:09):
Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Speaker 7 (21:11):
CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that,
evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that
Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted.
Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role
lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.
Speaker 7 (21:39):
DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When
George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah
and then he's sitting right there next To king When
king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they
both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes
after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think
(22:02):
that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable
not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort
of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is
on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even
more than a few years on the earth to recognize
(22:24):
that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone
mean and on his.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years
in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig
and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some
portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i
have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a
rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries
(22:49):
to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer
is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't
all of us in other situations done a version of
the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we
should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think
is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can
(23:12):
all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad
apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters
which is why the first step in any attempt to
fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to
get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders
contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop
(23:35):
Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if
only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died
(23:56):
there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis
peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned
hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and
one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the
mayor Of.
Speaker 8 (24:13):
Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people
that came to my home and they demanded THAT i
come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was
not in the habit of avoiding my position on the,
(24:34):
topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or,
so Said, HEY i could get out there and just
tell the.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been
elected mayor three years, earlier.
Speaker 8 (24:47):
AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There
they called me up to the front and asked IF
i would defund the. Police and at the, time this
was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them
what they meant by, it and they, say, well why
don't you get.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Rid of the.
Speaker 8 (25:02):
Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND
i got shamed and.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on
the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly
through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.
Speaker 8 (25:26):
BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style
walking through a ton of people that were throwing things
at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN
i did the right. Thing there was no question in
my mind that refusing to defund the police was the
right thing to.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail,
yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at,
large but if the problem is a small number of bad,
apples then what sense is there in upending the whole.
Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat.
Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in,
(26:04):
Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what
the mayor. Said one of the first of the many
press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd
unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the,
room which is the police, union there won't be a
culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little
(26:24):
bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when
you said, that what did you.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with
this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange
for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit
of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's
(26:51):
keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have
these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that
the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously
be with the.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation
or the union having more authority than it. Should has
become a common complaint in many of the cities as.
Speaker 6 (27:18):
Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get
rid of bad.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the
nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief
of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was,
killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post
you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was
a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.
Speaker 6 (27:43):
Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article
is that we as a, democracy in all the societies
in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i,
worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief
simply firing someone who deserves to be.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief
of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver
he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department
in his more than eight years as, chief there were
sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL
a very small number of his officers were proving to
(28:24):
be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems
he caught them lying on their field, reports on and.
On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the.
Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with
a clean, record so it was possible for them to
get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired
(28:47):
but then in three of those, cases his decision was
reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who
he thought were not worthy of a role in law,
enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that
many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper
(29:08):
internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the
police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in
investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first
round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough
for stories to be straightened, out and before that first,
(29:30):
interview in some, cities the police department has to hand
over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to
the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual
in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he
ran into this problem when he was called in to
clean up The Miami Beach Police.
Speaker 6 (29:50):
Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over
all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management
has and what management can, prove and you can tailor
your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible.
Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your,
(30:13):
job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Law did they change that provision in your?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Time?
Speaker 6 (30:20):
There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to
improve the quality of policing In Mayo?
Speaker 6 (30:29):
Beach it makes it extremely.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the,
profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the
ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need
an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or
who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against.
(30:53):
Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs
all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the
interests of the many in the thin tail has ended
up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.
Speaker 10 (31:08):
TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad
cops more than good.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And
boston police.
Speaker 10 (31:18):
Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages
from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should
have happened ten years.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police
chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't.
Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of.
All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many,
cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire
(31:50):
process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial,
judge but with an arbitrator that the union.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Plays a role in.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law
professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list
of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on
appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven,
Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d.
(32:24):
C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven,
percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy.
Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis
in the years leading up to the death Of George.
Speaker 8 (32:43):
Floyd there are more than a few instances when we
have terminated someone it works its way up through that,
arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we.
Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough.
Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton
of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately.
(33:06):
Lose that person comes back on how does that help?
Culture because that same person is going to talk to
all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING
i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making
a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision
overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a
police department and shift the. Culture they got to be
(33:28):
able to set the.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens
when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't
suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of
may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple
for a long. Time you heard the tape in the
last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over
(33:49):
the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required,
stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him
on the ground and put his knee on his neck
while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason
that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say,
Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so
(34:09):
the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more
years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner
of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in
his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped,
breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple,
times but then he just gives up and sits there
(34:32):
On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history
(34:53):
is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph.
Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick
mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our
executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix
and L. Hafey credit Cone I'm Malcolm. Gabba get add
(35:22):
free episodes Of Revision's history by subscribing To Pushkin. Plus
sign up on the show page On Apple podcasts or
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