July 24, 2025 • 61 mins
To wrap up our coverage of the World Series of Poker, we bring you a poker interview extravaganza. This year, Leo Margets became the second woman ever to make it to the Main Event final table—and the first since 1995. Nate and Maria chat with Leo about her approach to poker, why having fun helps her play better, and how she felt about her historic 2025 WSOP. Then, they interview poker legend Erik Seidel, who taught Maria to play the game. He talks about the camaraderie of the poker world, and shares his personal “no suffering” rule.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Nate Silver. We can't escape poker, Maria, No, we can't.
We're going to be speaking with very privileged to speak
with one of the nine final tableists, Leo Margit's terrific player.
You'll see, she's a great personality and talks in a
great deal of candor about what this very human experience
(00:51):
is like. Also, I believe the first woman in thirty years.
Is that correct to reach the final table?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That is absolutely correct. So yeah, we'll be giving you
a little recap of our own world series, which was
not nearly as successful as Leo's, and then we'll let
Leo wow you with her deep run. And we're also
going to have some interview content from my poker mentor
Eric sidell Nay. This is going to be a poker
(01:23):
centric pokeerrific Risky Business.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It is kind of the origin of our relationship. Definitely
probably a little overdetermined, right and kind of the show.
So you get some poker on the show sometimes. But
I think, as we'll hear in this interview, here's a
little trade secret. Sometimes you record the interview before the
top of the show, so we know what happened, but
it is about decision making under pressure and the very
human side of decision making under pressure. Leo is not
(01:48):
some gto bot, right, and almost nobody is. When you
make the day eight, day nine, how many days they have, ten, eleven,
the event right, the final table, when you're playing for
far more money than you ever have before for ninety
nine point nine percent of the populations. So I think
a very honest and kind of look at what it
was like through her eyes.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Absolutely before we get to layot night. We are both
now back in New York City. The World Series is
behind us. I ended in the red. Unfortunately, did you
end in the black or in the red? Did you
make money or dead?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Money black can hold them. But then all these stupid
fucking mix games, right anyway, that's another.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It was.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It was a decent world I had a lot of
cashes at a pretty deep ran the main event, but like, yeah,
I've run these numbers and like for a single World series,
you're going to end in the red seventy five percent
of the time because it's concentrated in the one time
when you do make five hundred K by getting third
place in the monster stack or something which happens once
(02:48):
every infanity million years. Right, so you have to, like,
you have to take events where you're get pretty good
results are in the mix a lot as being relatively
tolerable at least.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yep for sure. For sure. Now, even though I'm in
the red, I'm pretty happy with how the summer went.
It is, you know, much better than last summer, where
I was really in the red, six figures in the red.
This summer is much more mild, much more manageable. I
did have some deep runs, you know, I had second
place finish online. I had a nice deep run not
(03:20):
at the World Series but at the Venetian in the
World Poker Tour. So so I had some really nice
moments where I could have really made something happen. Unfortunately,
you know, there's a big difference even between second and first,
certainly between fiftieth and first. So those moments can make
or break a summer. You know, had I just done
(03:41):
a tiny bit better, I would have been in the black.
But I was there, right, I was in the position,
in the position to do a tiny bit better, And
that makes me happy, right, Like, that's that's what you
That's the best that you can do is keep putting
yourself in that position to make the really big money.
And as long as you can keep getting there, then
eventually you'll you'll get over the top and be able
(04:04):
to kind of break through. And you know that, I
think that's that's what I found. Nate, You've done that too,
and so I think that as long as we keep
performing well, I think it can't you can't think of
it as a failure, even when you know this time
around you didn't quite make it over the top, because
it is just you know, one or two hands away
from a winning.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Summer, literally right, the whole summer can and this and
be careful to keep in mind when things work in
your favor. Right, it's easy to think about your bust
out hand, whether it was a bad beat or a
cooler or a flip you loss, you thro all terms
booker players will know, right or in my case, triple
heir a bluff that called down strong hair on top
(04:44):
of his range, almost up in the fold.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
He didn't, right.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But you know, you also usually win a lot of flips,
get a lot of luck. There's lots of luck in
ways that is more subtle sometimes, right when your opponent
has a hand that shouldn't bust you and they chicken
out and don't bet thinly enough. Right when you're rescued
from making a dumb shove because someone else shoves first
(05:08):
and they run into as instead of you. Right, the
butterfly effect. There's a lot of luck involved. Speaking of luck,
Versus said, do you have any thoughts on the main
event champion? Michael Musrochi. He's a very good and intimidating player.
He also had a crazy run. I think Doug Polk
ran the numbers and found like you're like ninety nine
point ninth percentile luck and all ins.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
He did, he did, And there was one moment where
I think he had won ten or eleven all ins
in a row. Nate, that is so improbable, right, I
think think back to, like, what's the greatest streak you've
ever had in winning all ins? I think mine might
be three, right, Like, I don't think I've ever won
more than three all ins in a row like that.
I tried to think about it, but ten is just
(05:49):
it's insane. So he was he was running. You know,
you can say someone runs pure, and that means that
they win all of their all ins when they're ahead.
He was running more than pure because he won the
ones where he was behind, right, he actually ended up
hitting his you know, lucky one card. And just to
be clear that this doesn't take away anything from the
(06:11):
fact that he's a really you know, tricky player, that
he puts people in tough spots, that he played well
as well. I'm not trying to detract from that, but
it's really good to remember that you need to run
like god right to win these But.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He Yeah, so he one out of ten thousand people
wins the main event, right, so if you run ninety
nine out of one hundred in terms of luck and
then ninety nine out of one hundred in terms of skill,
and you could debate, but he's certainly pretty far up
in the stratosphere, especially by the way for terment like
the main event, where a lot of people are scared,
where you're at the same table for a long time. Right,
he is certainly making technical mistakes. But like you have
(06:47):
not seen like the German Solver gto pros do that
well in the main you see people like Michael do
well because there's the intimation factor. There's a player reading factor,
there's the fearlessness. So many people clam up and play
like knits when you see anything beyond day five to
six a main event coverage, right, and you.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Can't have that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You can't accuse the grind of being a lot, but
a knit is not one of those facts. And by
the way, for people who weren't watching, not only did
he win the main event, he for the fourth time
won the fifty K Players Championship and immediately after winning
the main event was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame.
That has never happened before, so he became.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Usually has to die for them to like like if
someone dies, like accelerate in baseball, they're through the Hall
of Fame.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So it was quite quite the year for him. And
you know, I I just to if I'm being perfectly honest,
I don't think he was the technically best player at
the final table. I don't think he was. He was
number one, But in terms of his intuition, in terms
of his presence, and in terms of just like he
was on a roll. And you can't you can't. You
(07:55):
can't underestimate that, right, Like there are this is true
in sports, true, like we just to like branch out
a little bit. We've talked on the show before about
the hot hand fallacy, where then it turned out, you
know that the hand fallacy is actually a fallacy in
itself because it's not a fallacy in certain situations, including
(08:16):
in places like poker, where like that sort of aura
and that sort of mindset can actually affect how other
people play, right, Like, if you think I'm invincible right now,
then people will play differently against you, and you can't
fake it, by the way, like this is something that
has to come comes from somewhere else and people so
(08:38):
people do get hot hands, right, And it's not that
the odds change, it's that Nate. You know, last week
on the show, we talked about butterfly effect. You just
mentioned it here, But it's that the different those different
things on the margin shift a tiny bit enough to
put the odds more in your favor and you end
up kind of doing better than you otherwise would. And
(08:59):
I think that that's a really really powerful factor that
we shouldn't underestimate.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, what's tricky against the player? I mean, look, you
know this this more with like intermediate players and someone
like miss Rahi, right, but by day four of a
big tournament, especially the main event. Everyone has run well
to get to day four. Some people are playing with
a lot more confidence for the most part, and it's
routine to see people who have a lot of chips
(09:25):
make one or two loose plays that they probably shouldn't make,
but aren't that bad, then take a bad beat and
then tilt right.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's funny. I've seen kind of your player rating sheet,
which I think is amazing. I'm not quite that systematic
about it, but I do always when I look up players,
one of the things I do is I look at
their most recent results, right, and I think, oh, this person,
like he has X in earnings, but he just came
(09:52):
in second in the Millionaire Maker, right, so he just
had this insane score that is going to matter, right,
Like that is actually something that you should be looking at.
You shouldn't just be looking at what are the total earnings?
How long have you been playing? Sure that matters? How
have you been doing recently? Right? Did you have a
huge score? Did you have a huge score yesterday? Like
(10:13):
where is your head at? And how are you going
to be playing differently as a result? And I think
that that actually makes a really big difference.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
We saw that, right, Someone who you know has been
at the World Series for a month and they have
two small catch from Prisco, right, yep. Unless they had
some family incident in the in between, they're probably going
to be not the invest mentality yep.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I think that those are really important things to take
into consideration when you do your kind of decision making calculus.
And it's good to remember. This is why you know,
solvers are great and all, but there are when you're
playing live poker, they are all these other factors that
have to go into your decision tree. This is true
of all, you know, all decisions like you just need
(10:53):
to take the full situation into account. People who can
do that well end up doing well. I think the
grinder is someone who is very good at kind of
sizing people up. Even though I doubt Nate that he
looked anyone up on handed Mob or did any research
on his opponents, he just has a good, you know, presence,
and he's able to do things like that. Laomarchet's someone
(11:13):
who is very intuitive at the table. I think we
could see that. So I think that these are just
important things, important things to note, important things too, to
keep in mind. Nate. One more thing about the World Series.
A few weeks back, we remember we had listener Tim
Senstock on the show. He was going to be coming
out to the World Series, and we talked to him
in June, gave him some pointers about the events he
(11:36):
was going to play, and I actually ran into him
in the World Series in the hallway at some point. Yeah,
I gave I gave him a hug, and he seemed
in good spirits. And then afterwards we did check in
to see how his World Series went, and yeah, he
wrote us back. So remember, Nate, you and I weren't
(11:57):
too enthusiastic about the Ultra Stack because the structure is
actually quite bad, right, but you know, there are good
things about it. So he ended up playing that. He
ended up playing both day once. He did last for
a good chunk of the day, but busted both days
just before Cashing. After dinner, he says he did really
well in Cash though, so he ended on a positive note, Nate.
(12:20):
So Tim did better than you and I did. He
ended his World Series in the black, whereas you and
I ended in the red. And he said that some
of the tips we gave him, like, you know, not
worrying about the clock playing his own game. I think
that he says that it helped him. I hope it did,
and I hope next year he's able to do well,
(12:41):
not only at the cash tables but also in the tournaments.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, isidated like to have a few more reps for
these tournaments. I mean, the thing that's unique about poker
is that you are thrown into the frying pan sometime
and you least expect it, right, Poker never quite goes.
It's not a tame beast.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, no, it isn't. Sometimes you've got a good game
plan and then you know, Mike Tyson comes in, sucks
you and the job there, It all goes, It all
goes out the window. Nate, good luck to the two
of us next year at the World Series, and you
know I'll be at Barcelona. You will not be, but hopefully,
(13:18):
you know, hopefully we will run well and play well
in whatever we undertake next. Let's have some of that
ten all ins in a row. Luck rub off on us.
So congratulations to everyone. I hope everyone had a good
World Series. And with that, Nate, let's take a break
and talk to Leo Margett's Nate and I are so
(13:51):
excited to welcome a very special guest, Leo Marrigettes, who
has become the first woman in thirty years to make
the final table of the WSOP main event. This really
is a historic event, no matter what some people on
Twitter may say, and we are so. I was so
excited to talk to her about it, to talk about
(14:12):
her run, and just in general talk some poker and
some historic achievements. Welcome to the show. We're so happy
to have you.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Thank you, Maria, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So Leo. You and I I think I met you
right away when I started playing poker back back, you know,
six years ago, but you'd been playing already forever, and
I was like, wow, she's she's done so much, So
why don't you just start off by telling us kind
of what this year means to you and kind of
in the scope of your poker career, because you've been
playing for over a decade years.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That was my siventing seven.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Oh my god, almost two decades.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
That's yeah, I'm a nine ers.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
It was my seventeenth main event every year scenes two
thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Wow, Nate, how many main events have you played?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I played nine?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I think my first film was in two thousand and
nine or eleven.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I skipped I skipped it.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
By all right. So Leo, Nate and I together have
played fewer main events that you that you have played
by yourself.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
When I say I've played seventeen to many events, it
looks so alien to me, you know, likes if I
don't relate because I have I'm zero burnout with poker.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
I love the game. I love intrinsically the game.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Like, so that motivation or that drive was the one
that didn't ever let me burn out.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That's great. How did you you know during the main
how did you make it so that, like your brain
could stay focused as opposed to letting external things get
to you, because it's so the main is hard. It's
so long, right, if you go deep, it's so many days.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, it's definitely an energy game.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Maybe since twenty eighteen, I usually do an extent every
long series, an extent where I at the end of
the day, I rank myself on whatever for categories like
goals in mind, focused, technical skills, and then it's very
interesting to see how ranking helps me stay in track,
because like imagine you go to the gym and day
(16:16):
one you can do ten reps with one hundred killers
in squad. If you do that every day for a week,
on day eight, you're one hundred percent without rest.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
No way is going to be ten reps with one
hundred killers.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
And physically we all see it, but mentally it's not
so easy to see unless we note it, because you
might think on day eleventh of as series, online or life,
you can tell to yourself, being honest, no, I'm giving
my one hundred percent. So you feel chill because you think, yeah,
I'm doing my one hundred percent, but you're one hundred
(16:53):
percent is a fraction of what can be. You're one
hundred percent maybe sixty percent of what your potential one
hundred percent can be.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
So this extral helps me a lot because.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
When I start having sevens in my grades, I just
take a day off and it helps. The next day
I improved so much.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
And then also I realized that it was a good
idea for me to write my goals as if my
ideal LEO, what will my idea LEO?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Do you know?
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Accepting, I discovered that to play well, I need to
have fun in the table. And this together with what
I was dealing with writing my goals and thinking that
I wanted to be the only one validating my decisions.
You know, like as long as I could explain to
myself why I was doing something, I don't care about
external people judging.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
There will always be people judging.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
And yeah, that made it actually easy because it was
like I was approaching every day with zero expectations and
zero of fear and like zero fear of basting, zero
fear gero anxiety to win. It was just Okay, I'm
going to focus on every hand the best I can.
(18:10):
I'm gonna have fun, I'm gonna take my time to
make every decision, and.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I'm super happy because I was.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I mean, this is I think that my biggest accomlument
I was the leo I would have liked to be
in that in a spot like this, right that. Of course,
you even when you read the final table, you think, okay,
I'm very calm, but still I was ready to experience
some nerves. And I mean I did have beat, but
(18:39):
it was nerves.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I was.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
I was where I wanted to be, So it was
such a nice experience.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, I think one thing you realize, right, and I
have not made it nearly as deep as you Leo.
I have had to stay six and day five in
the past couple of years. The nerves build, at least
for normal people. Maybe you're not normal, right, for normal people,
and I think even all that, like the top people
(19:07):
who have like made multiple final ties before, Right, there's
some point at what you're playing poker for more money
than you ever have or perhaps ever will, right, you know?
For me, I think kind of the inflection point comes
at like day four at the dinner break, where you're
in the money now a lot of people are busted
and you're like, okay, ninety three percent of people have
(19:30):
been a limit for this tournament. All my friends I
usually get dinner with are gone playing some other event. Right,
how are you dealing with the increasing stress? Are you
trying to put it out of your mind? Are you
trying to get in a zone where you channel it
in some ways? But what's And you had a deep
run in a while ago, like two thousand and nine, right,
(19:51):
did that help? How were your coping mechanisms?
Speaker 5 (19:54):
I guess well, I did run my first ever main event,
and I am so grateful that I had the chance
to improve from all the things I did back back
By then, like a just being a look in.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
The phone the day before and being very.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Susceptable you have, even to the comments and getting all
these dopamine rush from everyone saying stuff. So I was
so happy to be able to do things better after
they six, not opening Instagram anymore, not taking the phone,
just proactively texting whoever I wanted. I texted my parents
(20:36):
and said, hey, I'm alive. I'm actually doing very well.
Don't worry for me and the rest.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
I have to say I didn't feel any pressure.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
I know people think I might, you know, like because
it was such a dibra and long time since a
women didn't do it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
But I didn't feel any pressure I had.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
I just wanted to give my best right and the
challenge really was that once I made the main event.
I once I made the final table, it was a
bitterly for many people, even for myself. I felt so happy,
but at the same time, it was not done. I mean,
it actually just started. I get the goosebumps when I
(21:19):
say it, because but the feeling that everyone's was already
celebrating it was a bit contradictory because you also wanted
to relax and think wow, so good.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
But then.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
I had the fucking incredible chance in my life to
be in a spot where you know, you can do
super big, even if it was already very good. And
I remember having a chat the night before Adri and
Steph and talking to them and and Adrid said, do
you know you can win this thing? Right? And it's
like and then he said, and you know you can
(21:56):
win this thing and you can bust first hand. And
these words didn't fail overwhelming. It felt, yeah, I'm gonna
I'm gonna play this. I'm gonna do my best, you know.
And happily I don't have any regrets even if I had,
because it could happen, you know, pressure whatever. I could
have had regrets on how I played, I'm very happy
(22:17):
that I don't.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
But I was even ready to make.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Mistakes if you know, I can give my best and
still make some mistakes. But I I am happy with
the play, with how I plate, with how I handle
the situation. So yeah, just like incredibly grateful also to
share it, like with my close friends that were there,
with my team, with the community, because after everything passed,
(22:42):
I realized, how, you know, how much people had been
routing and it's so cool to be in a spot
where you want.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
You could feel the energy.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I could feel Michael's mom like on my way to
the final table, she just said, oh, you know, my
heart is divided because my son is also there.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
But I you know, this kind of stuff, this kind
of like we all have people in our lives. I
reflect better than that.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
We all have people in our lives that loves us
or support us. But it's not that gom on to
be that lives pood in us both where people can
show you they're support and their love in sata granibre.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Way, something that you said earlier. I just want to
point out for for everyone because I think it's so
important and people forget it. You could tell watching the
final table, like watching the runs, like you could tell
the whole time like there were people who were, you know,
just super focused, which obviously like it's a main event,
it's good, but you were all you were playing well,
(23:46):
but you were having a blast and you could actually
feel that energy. And I think that that's so important
to remember. I mean, poker is a phenomenal way to
learn how to think better. Right. It is such like
a It is an incredibly powerful, you know, mental tool,
all of these things, but it's also a game, right,
It's also supposed to be fun, and I think people
(24:08):
lose sight of that, and I wonder, you know, I
would love to think that part of your exceptional performance
was due to the fact that you had a blast, right,
that you were actually enjoying yourself.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Well, because I don't know other people, but I also
I mean, in poker can be tool also to know
yourself better, right exactly exa absolutely for me this year,
and it's been seventeen years that I've been playing at
this more seriously, I realized, I give my best when
I'm having fun, and at the end, we are lucky
(24:39):
enough to put our time and energy and effort into
a game, and yeah, what are games for?
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Like Like, I in the same way that when I trained.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
In the gym, I enjoy I have fun and that's why,
probably why I stick to it. With poker is the same,
like it was so different. I don't think I've ever
had so much fun. And in a way, there was
a couple of hours that I didn't have any.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
Fun from ninety hours of play, no, and then I
went when I was not having fun, I went again
to rushing decisions.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
I remember a hand with with Michael, I just snapped
folded to avoid the uncomfortability, me not having fun, me
not having fun, embracing uncomfortable spots. Hey, poker is gonna
bring you uncomfortable spots.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
In the beginning of the series, I was so much
in the mood that I even wanted to experience those
uncomfortable situations because it's gonna happen if you avoid them.
You know, it's impossible you perform well because it's like
it doesn't happen. You know, you cannot just seek easy
sports or easy decisions. So I just needed to switch
(25:49):
my mind and say, hey, let's embrace and comfort. I
was almost curious and looking forward to get those uncomfortable
spots that come from playing poker, especially in high level,
lead level. You know, like you're gonna accept it. You're
gonna go through on comfortable spots, and you need to
deal with them and done with them, because if you
just asking them one of the time, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, and you're never gonna learn. You know. I love
that you're pointing out the importance of taking your time.
This is something I need to work on as well,
because I'm a fast player. I make quick decisions. I
don't like tanking. I don't like when people tank, Like
you know, I'm one of those people who calls the clock.
And but it's something that like, sometimes I've made big
(26:35):
mistakes because I've acted too quickly. And I think that sometimes,
you know, it's easy to kind of just snap full snap,
you know, just just make those quick decisions because you think.
But something that you that you said, even though like
just to make sure that you're not missing something, just
to kind of think it through. I think that in
poker and in life, we often don't write. We we
(26:57):
often don't take the time to just make sure and
instead we just act. And I think that that's just
such an important reminder that I'm glad that that was
something that that you've brought up explicitly.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
As you said, it also happened to me when it
was one of my leaks.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
It was one of the columns I raised myself for
today because I leak on that sometimes it's not playing
too fast, and I know some of the mistakes I
made worse because of that, because I believe I can
think well right like I can have Obviously, as I said,
I don't know anything, and there's always so much time,
that's so much.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Room for improvement.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
But at least if I make a mistake, is I
want it to be because there's something I don't know,
not because it's something I could have got there if
I just allowed myself a couple more minutes to think.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, that gap between the kind of idealized leo and
the actual one. Because we've all had hands as poker players,
but everybody, right, I assume that like in the moment,
you're like, boy, if I were a really good player,
I would fold this hand, or if I were a
really good player, I would turn this hand into a bluff.
And you're tired, and you and you don't do it right,
(28:08):
and you kind of know you're not doing it, and
like somehow you're not capable of like just pushing your
hand in a different motion. Did you have a big
stack early in the main or when did you start
to like think I can make the final table.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Never?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
I just well, I was focusing on every hand, and
that's the good thing.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I didn't have any expectations. The expectation the goal.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
Is not honestly, and that's why I'm more like proud
about it, because I didn't really thought I'm going to
make finance they want, so all of a sudden we
weren't in the final dayment and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
That's great, So do you I mean obviously people will
you know, talk about this. It is kind of a
historic moment, you know, first time in thirty years, first
time in the modern era. Not to take anything away
from Barbara and right, but making it through like two
hundred players is very different from making your through ten
thousand players, right, It's a totally different game. So do
(28:59):
you are you know, for others it's a big deal
for you, Like, now that it's over, is this a
big deal? Is it going to change kind of how
you what you're doing going forward? Or was it just
one more tournament that you went deep in and now
it's kind of on to the next.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
I mean, yeah, onto the next.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
But enjoying the experience, right, Like I think we've all
dreamed of that, and all of a sudden I was
living what we all dreamed. Like I want to enjoy sugary, right,
But I don't feel like, you know, you get all
these now you represent now all the women fighting, I
think this is a bit alien to me. Like I'm
super glad if someone being women men whatever can feel
(29:42):
inspired by what I did or feels good.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But I.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Don't dare to say.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
I represent all the women that you know play poker,
and no I mean dry like I think we represent ourselves.
It's individual represents themselves. But at the same time, I
feel very honored that someone can get inspired and regarding.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Life is going to change to be hones. I feel less.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Motivated to play one to play one case. But besides that, No,
I'm not gonna start playing tryon. I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna take a year of I'm not I'm just gonna.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I'm just gonna keep grinding as I did.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I love I'm lucky that I love the game. I
love putting time into getting better. I am very well
surrunded also, and I think it's key or to be
able to talk hands and talk think poker, which is
also very lucky.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I'm not it's not gonna change much.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
By the way, the day that there's a daybreak before
the final table, right, how did you spend that time?
Were you prepping, were you taking care of friends, were
you sleeping? Were you having a really nice day by
the pool or what did you do?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
I tried, and I took it as another day of
the main event, but without cards.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But my approach was, this is not a day off,
this is a.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Day of of mainland, but we are just not playing
with cards.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
So I stick to my routine. I slept. Can you
believe this is crazy?
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Can you believe that the day I slept better was
of all vera I slept fucking nine hours was the
day before the final table?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Now I can't believe that.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
I cannot believe it thither, but that's how Sid I
was and happy to be her right like it gave me,
and it gave me also so much confidence the fact
that I had slept so much, No, because it didn't
what you know.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
But back to the day itself. I trained, I went
for lunch, very chill. I didn't do much social I'm
not I'm a bit introverted anyway, so I needed time
and it was a day for myself a lot, I think.
I went for lunch and then I had a meeting
with Adri and Steph for a couple of hours, and
then at eight o'clock I was having dinner by myself
(32:03):
and I was left at nine thirty.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So Maria and I you were actually our first desire
to have on the show this week, more than the
man who won the main event, Michael MSRAI. If he
wants to come on, we'll happy you to have him
on in a future week. What was it like to
play against him? I mean, I mean again, yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
You know, ah. I like his vibe.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
He's so uncomfortable, he's so uncomfortable to being the table,
which is the biggest compliment, right that someone can tell you.
And I think at some points he was speaking on me.
I could see how he played, and I know he
was speaking on me to be extra aggressive because he
was putting so much bluffs then needed on Hans versus
me and instead cutting himself on bluffs against for example,
(32:54):
other people, which you know, like it's poker, right, and
it worked, and.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I just I don't know. Some people we didn't talk much,
but some people just the.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Vibe you like it, and I liked his vibe.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I love it. I love it. By the way, for
people who don't realize that when you're talking about Adre
on your rail, that's Adrian Matteos, who is one of
the best, if not the best, tournament players in the world.
So you definitely had like one of the best minds
in poker by your side and helping you through this.
(33:30):
Just to add Tonate's question, did you guys talk all
about the dynamic you know with the grinder? Did you
talk about specific players and specific exploits or not?
Speaker 5 (33:38):
Did you just kind of this threatenedy? You know, he
was so cool, like he was super nice. He told
me I could any doubt, I could write him any
moment of the day. It was I felt really supported
by all the team, but yeah, especially by by Adri
And we talked more about the spot, right, like being
in a spot could be so overwhelming that he so
(33:59):
I had confidence. So it was very good because the
things we talked it just work to validate my approach
to the day.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I think that, you know, it was It's not just
inspiring because of how far you went, but just how
you played right. It's it's good to watch that and
to see someone succeed while having a smile, while having
a good time and not being scared. Right, like you
you put it out there, like you ran big bluffs,
like you made big calls, like you you actually you
(34:30):
know sure, like you can think back to the ninth hand,
but like forget it like that happens happened, right, shit
happens like we all we've all been in that the.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Less word you are about making mistakes, like the less
a perfectionists you become, the more toolet and you are
with mistakes.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Paradoxically, the less mistakes you do right.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well, do you have so you know, for everyone listening
and for for everyone who followed your journey, do you
have any kind of parting words of wisdom you've already
shared so much or anything that you want you want
to kind of things.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
To promote person?
Speaker 5 (35:07):
Now that's like, I really you want to say thank
you again because I've even.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Never felt so.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
Supportive, so supported with so many people asking my cards,
like I felt the energy.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And also this is so much nicer shared right like.
Speaker 5 (35:30):
And in the same way that you know you you
try not to take two serious comments from people you
don't know, because when it's bad, you know you wouldn't
you wouldn't accept an advice.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
From these people.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
So it's good to keep that this that these times
also when the feedback is good, because something I like
a lot to think in bad moments, it's applicable for now.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
No like these two show pass right like, now you
are a super hero. Now everything is good bad. You know,
at the end of the day, I'm.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
So much more than just a playing, which I think
at the same time is good because I don't create
my identity from playing. And I think this is a
good advice for in general, but for players, for for
people that play for fun, for people that play. I mean,
I don't like to give advice because it's a bit
like oh and so listened advice, But since you asked,
(36:27):
I think to to not link your identity with with
your game is quite healthy mentally because you know, things
go well, things go bad, you go through with you
have super incredible differends and you are still you right
and shouldn't be your results that validate you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That is a really wonderful message I think to to
to remember to internalize, uh to to end on. And
also like, I think it's one of the reasons why
you ended up doing so well this year. So for I,
Nate and I do not see you as being defined
by your results. That said, congratulations on an incredible result.
(37:11):
It's really it's really wonderful. It was a pleasure watching you,
rooting for you, and we're so glad that we had
the chance to have you on that.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
I had asked for time also in this tat and yeah,
I hope to see you live running together the main
um in Barcelona.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Let's do it. So that was our conversation with Leo Marchettes.
So let's take a quick break now and then we'll
hear from Eric's sidell So today on the show, we've
(37:46):
got a very special guest with us, a poker legend,
Poker Hall of Famer, ten time World Series of Poker
Bracelet winner. As of now we are recording this in
May World Poker Tour title holder, EPT title holder, you know,
Triple Crown winner, basically every title that exists. He has
(38:07):
high roller extraordinaire. Welcome to the show, Eric's idel.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
That's a very generous intro.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Well, and of course Eric's greatest claim to fame is
teaching me how to play poker. It is, so Eric,
let's you know, we're gonna talk a lot of poker
and risk and all of that. But why don't we
start off by just kind of going back to the
beginning to you know, little Eric growing up, how did
(38:35):
your interest in games and in poker even originate? How
did you even get introduced to that world. Were you
someone who was curious about it from a young age?
Is it something that came later.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I started playing back emmon when I was in high school,
and then that led me to a place called the
Game Room, which was on the Upper West Side, and
then ended up going to the Mayfair, which was a
well known back Ammon and bridge club in those days,
and played back em in there for years, and a
(39:07):
poker gamy ended up developing in the Mayfair. At the time.
They didn't allow any pros in, which is very helpful
to me because I was terrible, so I got to
play with other people who are also terrible, and I
would say it just slowly started to take over the Mayfair,
(39:29):
and I mean eventually the Mayfair ended up being a
poker club.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Eric, So you kind of sort of played games professionally
in the sense that you know, paid the bills. But
then you had a little detour and you went to
Wall Street, which is a gambling of a much gambler
nature than poker. I would say, talk a little bit
about kind of how your background in games prepared you
for that and how you you know, how you ended
(39:53):
up then transitioning back and playing poker full time, leaving
Wall Street for a career that you know, many people
would say, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I do think it was a natural transition to go
from playing games to Wall Street. And you see a
lot of poker players now going out to Wall Street.
But while I was working on Wall Street, I was
also flying out to play cash games in Vegas. I
didn't I didn't like being on Wall Street. I didn't
like having to wear a tie, and there's there's a
(40:27):
competitive and a pettiness there. And I didn't like trading
on the floor where people are fighting for ones and
twos and it was it's kind of an ugly environment
and I really didn't like being part of it. I
just felt like to be rewarded trading options on the floor,
you really need to be a dick, you know, and
(40:49):
and try and screw people over it. And that was
basically that was what was being done to me. And
it wasn't It didn't feel good.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Our listeners might think, uh, boy, isn't poker kind of
cut through? But there's like a kind of camaraderie among players.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
And Rick, you played in like some of the biggest,
most famous games of all time. I mean, has that
camaraderie lessened over the years as you kind of had
more tourists and professionals, or I mean, what's what was
this scene like when you're kind of young, young, skinny kid,
I guess, and trying to get your feet wet in
Vegas which you don't yet know that Well.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
It was fine because I knew enough people. And the
nice thing about poker is you can. I mean, now
it's changed a little bit where there are more private
games in Vegas, but in those days, all the games
were open and that was kind of part of the
laws that you got to play if if you wanted to.
It was it was competitive, but it was it was
(41:53):
never unfriendly. I mean, it can be exhausting, but it's
also I also really enjoy the environment. I like rooting
for friends and things like that in.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Terms of thinking about decision making and risk taking in
really high stake situations and under bright lights, right when
people are looking and people are watching how you're playing.
Because these days, I know in the past this wasn't
the case, but these days they're all streamed, right, so
people know exactly how you're making decisions. How do you
(42:24):
deal with that? Right, how do you keep executing at
a high level after you've been playing for multiple days,
You're tired, everyone's watching, and the stakes are so high
because the payouts keep going and going up and the
pay jumps are huge. And I feel like this is
one of the things that might might be the most
applicable to real life, because I think people always want
(42:46):
to know, you know, how do I make good risk
decisions when the stakes are the highest.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
If you're playing a tournament. One of the nice things
about a tournament is that the further you go along,
the more that's at stake. And I think that's helpful
because now you're really rewarded for paying attention and bringing
of this. And so I mean, I do think sometimes
(43:13):
I have to remind myself to get back to just
being present and being in being, you know, watching the
action stuff like that, But it does. It is easier
as you get closer to a final table or you
get closer to a win, because there's just more at stake,
and it's just it becomes more interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
That's really interesting, Nate. Do you find that as well,
just in poker and in life, because there I think
it's true of me and in a certain respect that
as kind of as the pressure builds, you actually perform better. Right,
Because there are different people. There are people who kind
of can't perform under pressure, and then there are people
who do their best at kind of high stakes moments.
(43:56):
And it seems like Eric is the high stakes performer.
I'd like to think that I am too. How do
you see it, Nate?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I mean, I think you've made more deep runs in
the past couple of years than I have, Maria. You know,
like I have felt increasingly comfortable when the pressure does now,
especially its like weaker fields, right where like, Okay, if
I've made day threes a couple dozen times in my
life and this is their second time, then I'm inexperienced
(44:23):
relative to a lot of people. But you've been through
that a little bit before. It also helps. I think
I like when events are on TV because even though
it adds some annoyances like what am I wearing?
Speaker 3 (44:32):
How do I look?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I think it puts more pressure on other people by comparison. Yeah,
because I'm not sure if people do better under pressure
or that they do less bad than they choke less
than others. Right, But yeah, look, I mean, Eric, how
do you stay sharp? Right, Because let's say you're having
(44:54):
a mediocre World Series and then finally after six weeks, right,
you just barrel through a tournament, a big event, right,
you're the chip leader. It's on to day four or something.
I mean, what's your routine like during the series to
to pace yourself or stay sharp or early above.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Well, I mean, but the World Series, it's really just
you're playing, you're eating, you're going to sleep. So it
just there's no I mean, there aren't really. You just
have to avoid distractions. It's funny because every year it
comes around and you think, like, oh, good, so and
Sound is going to be in town. Hopefully I'll get
to have dinner with them or whatever. And it's just
(45:36):
it's always a mistake to think that way because it's
such an all immersive thing that you are. If you're
not playing, you're in recovery and just you know, every
date it goes like that for you know, for the
whole world's here, it's six or seven weeks. Mario's smart
because she takes a few days off and she'll you know,
she'll go take a little mini vacation. I think that
(45:59):
really helps.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
But yeah, no, I do always do that before the
main event, because it really helps clear my mind and
kind of get me out of any funk that I
might be in. I find that that's very useful. And Eric,
one of the things that I love, not just about
the World Series, but just about your approach to poker
in general, is that you're one of the only players
I've met who is okay to end up missing an
(46:23):
event that you had planned on playing, right, that you
actually like in some ways. Obviously you're incredibly competitive, but
in some ways you don't have ego in the moments
where it matters, and you're okay to say, you know what,
I'm not feeling up for it, or this field looks terrible,
and even though I planned on playing this, you know,
one hundred thousand dollars buy it or whatever it is,
(46:44):
I'm not going to do that. And most players they'd
feel their ego bruise, right, They're like, no, I can compete,
you know in this, I'm going to play how you know?
How are how are you thinking about those moments? Because
you know it's that takes a lot of self knowledge
and discipline to do that.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Well. Yeah, I also have a no suffering rule. Stuff.
I wake up and I'm just you know, and I'm tired.
I just won't play if I'm dragged. It just it.
I don't want to be unhappy at the table, and
especially at an event like the World Series, where there
are just so many events every day, you have to
(47:22):
be very conscious of what kind of energy you can bring.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
No suffering rule, that's amazing. I think we should all
implement that. If you wake up and you feel like
this is going to be suffering, you just say.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
No, yeah, exactly are you trying to bracelet match? Are
you trying to compete with No? I mean, I'm not
one of those guys. I don't play that as many
tournaments as the guys who are bracelet hunting. I feel
like I have enough bracelets and I don't really have
to chase them anymore. And it's also like it's one
(47:59):
of these things where if you win one, it's some
kind of mini miracle. I just don't like to think
that way. I just want to play, Like, for instance,
this summer, there's some cool tournaments at the WIN and
I'll be playing those, you know, which are not bracelet events,
but just you know, it's nice to play at the
WIN and they run good tournaments.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
So nay, ten bracelets. Do we think that's enough? I
think I think we.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Need to know.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I think thirteen bakers doesn't.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
Let's not be let's sucking.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, Eric, was there a moment when
you're like poker has changed? When were there like inflection
points that you remember?
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
At the main one really is computers coming into the game,
and that's really changed things over the last I don't know,
eight years. I'm not sure how long it's been, but
it's really it just it has changed everything. I have
a friend who jokes with me that I've been saying
for about thirty years that the game is too tough
(48:55):
and I need and I need to stop playing. But really,
more recently, the computers have made it a much greater challenge,
but it's still you know, it's made it's made it
more difficult for me to play, but it's also made
it more interesting and uh, and it is. It's fun
(49:17):
to play against these computer guys and to and also
to see how much the game has it evolved. So
I enjoy being part of that and trying to figure
things out in this more modern computerized the world.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, and I mean you're you're still succeeding. Right at
EPT Monte Carlo, you came in third in one of
the high rollers. You've won several of your bracelets in
the last few years, so clearly you're you're still able
to compete at a high level. Do you you know,
how do you prepare not just for the World Series
but for series in general. Do you work with solvers
(49:53):
kind of what does your what does your study routine
look like? And has it changed significantly over the years.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah, it's definitely changed a lot. I mean, it used
to be you didn't really have to do anything. You
just showed up and played, you know, which was really nice.
It just it was a different time and there were
some bugs, but the bucks really weren't that relevant to play.
It was nice back then you could just you could
just show up and play. And now, yeah, you have
(50:23):
to study. You have to study solvers and study openings.
It's you know, I think that there are people now
who are completely immersed in it or studying and playing
and that's kind of all they do. It creates, you know,
an extra challenge to go up against people like that,
but it's also you know, it's interesting and exciting and
(50:46):
it's you know, it's fun. I feel like I'm as
much a fan as I am a player, and you know,
sit down at the table and I'll be like, Wow,
these guys are just so good. This is really fun.
You know, that's great.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why
you're still so good, right is because you are. It's
the ego thing again. You're you're learning from from others
and you're kind of incorporating it into your game. I
remember one hand, so a few years ago, I think
it was Poker Go released some of the archives from
like the earliest earliest World Series events, and they had
(51:23):
some footage from nineteen eighty eight, so the famous World
Series where you came in second to Johnny Chan and
they they had footage of just at the final table
before you guys were heads up, and I still remember
you just going bananas with a small pocket pair right
(51:45):
there was like a raise and a call and you
had I think it was pocket four's and you just
like gripped it. So talk about first of all, fearlessness
and secondly, no one was doing that right like these days,
you know that these make actually really good bluffs, But
if you were looking at people's game back then that
was just absolutely not done. Obviously, you were young, and
(52:06):
you would say young and stupid. I'd say, you know, young,
young and fear. But those plays like where did that
come from? Was that just intuition patterns? Like what were
do you? Do you remember how you thought of doing
things that nobody had done before.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
I do remember I was very focused on reads and
things like that, and I was I was pretty reckless,
I think, you know, especially you know, if you talk
about nineteen eighty eight, I didn't really know what I
was doing and I was really but I do remember
feeling like, this is really fun because you get reads
from some of these players that I wasn't getting in
(52:45):
the game back in New York, and it was like
it was very exciting for me to think, Wow, I
can play with these people and I didn't. I didn't
have any any experience outside of New York. And it was.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Were the reads fact in obvious or just that you
have a knack for picking that up, or more experience
or people better about avoiding tells now?
Speaker 3 (53:09):
I think they were more obvious back then, and I
think people were less concerned about timing and patterns and
things like that. So you know, it was just you know,
everybody was kind of playing by the seat of their
pants back then, so there really were a lot of opportunities.
And also, you know, I just when you don't know
(53:31):
what you're doing, you can really push things pretty far.
Let's say it's the.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
First day of the main event. I assume you like
the main Event, Eric, You're not one of these.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
I love the main Event. I hope I can play
it every single year. I really get a kick out
of it. It's day one.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Maybe you're you, you have some media trailing you, but
everyone assume everyone knows who you are at the table, right,
how are you adjusting to that, right to being a
known person where there might be some inhimidation factor. There
are thousands of hours of you playing poker on tape, right,
how do you adjust to, say, like a rank amateur
(54:10):
playing against you versus like a nervous kid who looks
up to you, versus like another another pro.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
I'm trying to play against each person individually, but I
don't really feel like any kind of reputation or anything
like that is going to is going to be helpful.
It's like, I don't feel like there are those types
of exploits where people will be more reluctant to play
a hand with me because because they proceed me to
(54:37):
be a good player or well known or whatever. I think,
if anything, they might be more likely to play a
hand because it's kind of fun for them, you know,
to have a story to tell the people back home,
So they might be a little bit more likely to
try and bluff me that kind of thing. But I
try and play it, you know, as straight as possible.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
So in some ways you've become Johnny Chan in rounders,
where Matt Damon just wants to bluff you just to
be able to say that he bluffed Johnny Cham.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
I think that exists. I really do think that exists.
I remember being at a table with a world champion,
uh in a in a big tournament, and he the
guy raised him and he moved all in and he
said to the guy, don't you want to, you know,
play against the world champion. You know. The guy ended
(55:29):
up calling and it was just it was so ridiculous.
But I do think that goes through some people's minds,
is so I think it does. It probably raises it
raises the risk that somebody's gonna try and bluff you, uh,
And I think that if it's televised, it's even more dramatic.
I think people people don't want to be seen as
(55:52):
somebody who's being bluffed on TV. And if they can
bluff you on TV, then they have, you know, then
then they can go back and be a hero in
their own game.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
How much impact was there for you from losing the
Immortalized by Rounders heads up match against Johnny Chang? Was
that like, were you still happy the next morning because
you got fucking second place? Or was it like do
you have like lifelong regret for me to where are
you on that spectrum?
Speaker 3 (56:21):
The funny thing about that is, to me, that's still
one of my favorite tournaments ever, just because I was
really at the very beginning of my career and I
had no idea how my skills would be applied at
the World Series. I had a couple of people in
the game that encouraged me to go, but I had
no confidence that I would that I was going to
(56:43):
be a favorite in the World Series, or that I
could go deep and to have that experience of going
through those four days and you know, trying to outplay
people and the whole thing I mean, it was amazing
for me. I just I love that tournament still. I
still have, you know, great feelings about that. To me,
(57:05):
The fact that I lost is it's not really a
big deal. You know, you win tournaments and you lose them,
you know, I don't I really have good feelings about that,
you know how you know, each day of that tournament,
how fun it was to see like, hey, I'm playing
with these guys, I'm doing well, you know, and I'm
(57:26):
seeing some fun things I'm seeing, you know, I'm you know,
finding some creative plays that you know, because you're just
making things up as you go law And I think
for me, at least, I was discovering a lot of things,
you know at that time.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Well, I think that that is a wonderful note to
go out on, because that is that is kind of
a peak accomplishment, even though you did not end up
winning that bracelet. But do you have any you know,
as I'm sure that a lot of poker players are
listening to this or and aspiring poker players, do you
want to leave? You know, the first question I ever
(58:03):
asked you, I'm gonna I'm gonna end the interview with it,
which is if you could tell one thing, kind of
one piece of advice for for poker players who are
either starting out or at any point in their journey.
What would it be.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Well, I remember I told you to pay attention, and
I still think that applies because there's just there's so
much information. I feel like people are teaching you how
to beat them if you just pay enough attention to
their patterns and and what they're doing. So if you're
paying enough attention, then you know that that that's a
(58:36):
big exploit.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
I think that those are those are wise words and
very difficult. So phone bands, yay.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
I want to ask you one question about my co host.
When you were coaching Maria, when did you think that
she had real potential for the game.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
Maria was an exciting project. I mean just because she
she came from nowhere. She she you know, she didn't
know how many cards were in a deck. But I
think what I mean what happened with her was she
she just worked so hard and so that was that
was really that's the key to how successful she was.
Is she really she was interested, she was open minded,
(59:16):
and she you know, and she was willing to put
the work in. And for me, it's it's just it's
really thrilling to see that she's still playing. I really,
I really got to kick out of the fact that
she's still playing and still doing well. I continues to
do well, so it's fun to sweat her well.
Speaker 1 (59:36):
Thank you for your time today, and thank you for
your time throughout our entire relationship, because you have given
me more hours of your life than than anyone has
any right to ask for. So thank you for joining us.
This was an absolute pleasure, and.
Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah, it was all mine. I'm a fan of the pod.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Thank you friend of the pod. Nate likes to call
people friends of the pod, so thank you friend of
the pod here.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
I know that's a big upgrade. I like it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Let us know what you think of the show. Reach
out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.
And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber,
we have some bonus content for you today. It's more
from our interview with Leo Marjetz that's coming up right
after the credits.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
And if you're not subscribing, what's wrong with you? Consider
signing up For just six hundred and a month. You
get access to that premium content and add free listening
across Pushkin's entire network of shows.
Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanikova.
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co
production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced
by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwin. Sally
Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.
Mixing by Sarah Bruger.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Nate Silver. We can't escape poker, Maria, No, we can't.
We're going to be speaking with very privileged to speak
with one of the nine final tableists, Leo Margit's terrific player.
You'll see, she's a great personality and talks in a
great deal of candor about what this very human experience
(00:51):
is like. Also, I believe the first woman in thirty years.
Is that correct to reach the final table?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That is absolutely correct. So yeah, we'll be giving you
a little recap of our own world series, which was
not nearly as successful as Leo's, and then we'll let
Leo wow you with her deep run. And we're also
going to have some interview content from my poker mentor
Eric sidell Nay. This is going to be a poker
(01:23):
centric pokeerrific Risky Business.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It is kind of the origin of our relationship. Definitely
probably a little overdetermined, right and kind of the show.
So you get some poker on the show sometimes. But
I think, as we'll hear in this interview, here's a
little trade secret. Sometimes you record the interview before the
top of the show, so we know what happened, but
it is about decision making under pressure and the very
human side of decision making under pressure. Leo is not
(01:48):
some gto bot, right, and almost nobody is. When you
make the day eight, day nine, how many days they have, ten, eleven,
the event right, the final table, when you're playing for
far more money than you ever have before for ninety
nine point nine percent of the populations. So I think
a very honest and kind of look at what it
was like through her eyes.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Absolutely before we get to layot night. We are both
now back in New York City. The World Series is
behind us. I ended in the red. Unfortunately, did you
end in the black or in the red? Did you
make money or dead?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Ever?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Money black can hold them. But then all these stupid
fucking mix games, right anyway, that's another.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It was.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It was a decent world I had a lot of
cashes at a pretty deep ran the main event, but like, yeah,
I've run these numbers and like for a single World series,
you're going to end in the red seventy five percent
of the time because it's concentrated in the one time
when you do make five hundred K by getting third
place in the monster stack or something which happens once
(02:48):
every infanity million years. Right, so you have to, like,
you have to take events where you're get pretty good
results are in the mix a lot as being relatively
tolerable at least.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yep for sure. For sure. Now, even though I'm in
the red, I'm pretty happy with how the summer went.
It is, you know, much better than last summer, where
I was really in the red, six figures in the red.
This summer is much more mild, much more manageable. I
did have some deep runs, you know, I had second
place finish online. I had a nice deep run not
(03:20):
at the World Series but at the Venetian in the
World Poker Tour. So so I had some really nice
moments where I could have really made something happen. Unfortunately,
you know, there's a big difference even between second and first,
certainly between fiftieth and first. So those moments can make
or break a summer. You know, had I just done
(03:41):
a tiny bit better, I would have been in the black.
But I was there, right, I was in the position,
in the position to do a tiny bit better, And
that makes me happy, right, Like, that's that's what you
That's the best that you can do is keep putting
yourself in that position to make the really big money.
And as long as you can keep getting there, then
eventually you'll you'll get over the top and be able
(04:04):
to kind of break through. And you know that, I
think that's that's what I found. Nate, You've done that too,
and so I think that as long as we keep
performing well, I think it can't you can't think of
it as a failure, even when you know this time
around you didn't quite make it over the top, because
it is just you know, one or two hands away
from a winning.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Summer, literally right, the whole summer can and this and
be careful to keep in mind when things work in
your favor. Right, it's easy to think about your bust
out hand, whether it was a bad beat or a
cooler or a flip you loss, you thro all terms
booker players will know, right or in my case, triple
heir a bluff that called down strong hair on top
(04:44):
of his range, almost up in the fold.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
He didn't, right.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
But you know, you also usually win a lot of flips,
get a lot of luck. There's lots of luck in
ways that is more subtle sometimes, right when your opponent
has a hand that shouldn't bust you and they chicken
out and don't bet thinly enough. Right when you're rescued
from making a dumb shove because someone else shoves first
(05:08):
and they run into as instead of you. Right, the
butterfly effect. There's a lot of luck involved. Speaking of luck,
Versus said, do you have any thoughts on the main
event champion? Michael Musrochi. He's a very good and intimidating player.
He also had a crazy run. I think Doug Polk
ran the numbers and found like you're like ninety nine
point ninth percentile luck and all ins.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
He did, he did, And there was one moment where
I think he had won ten or eleven all ins
in a row. Nate, that is so improbable, right, I
think think back to, like, what's the greatest streak you've
ever had in winning all ins? I think mine might
be three, right, Like, I don't think I've ever won
more than three all ins in a row like that.
I tried to think about it, but ten is just
(05:49):
it's insane. So he was he was running. You know,
you can say someone runs pure, and that means that
they win all of their all ins when they're ahead.
He was running more than pure because he won the
ones where he was behind, right, he actually ended up
hitting his you know, lucky one card. And just to
be clear that this doesn't take away anything from the
(06:11):
fact that he's a really you know, tricky player, that
he puts people in tough spots, that he played well
as well. I'm not trying to detract from that, but
it's really good to remember that you need to run
like god right to win these But.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He Yeah, so he one out of ten thousand people
wins the main event, right, so if you run ninety
nine out of one hundred in terms of luck and
then ninety nine out of one hundred in terms of skill,
and you could debate, but he's certainly pretty far up
in the stratosphere, especially by the way for terment like
the main event, where a lot of people are scared,
where you're at the same table for a long time. Right,
he is certainly making technical mistakes. But like you have
(06:47):
not seen like the German Solver gto pros do that
well in the main you see people like Michael do
well because there's the intimation factor. There's a player reading factor,
there's the fearlessness. So many people clam up and play
like knits when you see anything beyond day five to
six a main event coverage, right, and you.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Can't have that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You can't accuse the grind of being a lot, but
a knit is not one of those facts. And by
the way, for people who weren't watching, not only did
he win the main event, he for the fourth time
won the fifty K Players Championship and immediately after winning
the main event was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame.
That has never happened before, so he became.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Usually has to die for them to like like if
someone dies, like accelerate in baseball, they're through the Hall
of Fame.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So it was quite quite the year for him. And
you know, I I just to if I'm being perfectly honest,
I don't think he was the technically best player at
the final table. I don't think he was. He was
number one, But in terms of his intuition, in terms
of his presence, and in terms of just like he
was on a roll. And you can't you can't. You
(07:55):
can't underestimate that, right, Like there are this is true
in sports, true, like we just to like branch out
a little bit. We've talked on the show before about
the hot hand fallacy, where then it turned out, you
know that the hand fallacy is actually a fallacy in
itself because it's not a fallacy in certain situations, including
(08:16):
in places like poker, where like that sort of aura
and that sort of mindset can actually affect how other
people play, right, Like, if you think I'm invincible right now,
then people will play differently against you, and you can't
fake it, by the way, like this is something that
has to come comes from somewhere else and people so
(08:38):
people do get hot hands, right, And it's not that
the odds change, it's that Nate. You know, last week
on the show, we talked about butterfly effect. You just
mentioned it here, But it's that the different those different
things on the margin shift a tiny bit enough to
put the odds more in your favor and you end
up kind of doing better than you otherwise would. And
(08:59):
I think that that's a really really powerful factor that
we shouldn't underestimate.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, what's tricky against the player? I mean, look, you
know this this more with like intermediate players and someone
like miss Rahi, right, but by day four of a
big tournament, especially the main event. Everyone has run well
to get to day four. Some people are playing with
a lot more confidence for the most part, and it's
routine to see people who have a lot of chips
(09:25):
make one or two loose plays that they probably shouldn't make,
but aren't that bad, then take a bad beat and
then tilt right.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's funny. I've seen kind of your player rating sheet,
which I think is amazing. I'm not quite that systematic
about it, but I do always when I look up players,
one of the things I do is I look at
their most recent results, right, and I think, oh, this person,
like he has X in earnings, but he just came
(09:52):
in second in the Millionaire Maker, right, so he just
had this insane score that is going to matter, right,
Like that is actually something that you should be looking at.
You shouldn't just be looking at what are the total earnings?
How long have you been playing? Sure that matters? How
have you been doing recently? Right? Did you have a
huge score? Did you have a huge score yesterday? Like
(10:13):
where is your head at? And how are you going
to be playing differently as a result? And I think
that that actually makes a really big difference.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
We saw that, right, Someone who you know has been
at the World Series for a month and they have
two small catch from Prisco, right, yep. Unless they had
some family incident in the in between, they're probably going
to be not the invest mentality yep.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I think that those are really important things to take
into consideration when you do your kind of decision making calculus.
And it's good to remember. This is why you know,
solvers are great and all, but there are when you're
playing live poker, they are all these other factors that
have to go into your decision tree. This is true
of all, you know, all decisions like you just need
(10:53):
to take the full situation into account. People who can
do that well end up doing well. I think the
grinder is someone who is very good at kind of
sizing people up. Even though I doubt Nate that he
looked anyone up on handed Mob or did any research
on his opponents, he just has a good, you know, presence,
and he's able to do things like that. Laomarchet's someone
(11:13):
who is very intuitive at the table. I think we
could see that. So I think that these are just
important things, important things to note, important things too, to
keep in mind. Nate. One more thing about the World Series.
A few weeks back, we remember we had listener Tim
Senstock on the show. He was going to be coming
out to the World Series, and we talked to him
in June, gave him some pointers about the events he
(11:36):
was going to play, and I actually ran into him
in the World Series in the hallway at some point. Yeah,
I gave I gave him a hug, and he seemed
in good spirits. And then afterwards we did check in
to see how his World Series went, and yeah, he
wrote us back. So remember, Nate, you and I weren't
(11:57):
too enthusiastic about the Ultra Stack because the structure is
actually quite bad, right, but you know, there are good
things about it. So he ended up playing that. He
ended up playing both day once. He did last for
a good chunk of the day, but busted both days
just before Cashing. After dinner, he says he did really
well in Cash though, so he ended on a positive note, Nate.
(12:20):
So Tim did better than you and I did. He
ended his World Series in the black, whereas you and
I ended in the red. And he said that some
of the tips we gave him, like, you know, not
worrying about the clock playing his own game. I think
that he says that it helped him. I hope it did,
and I hope next year he's able to do well,
(12:41):
not only at the cash tables but also in the tournaments.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, isidated like to have a few more reps for
these tournaments. I mean, the thing that's unique about poker
is that you are thrown into the frying pan sometime
and you least expect it, right, Poker never quite goes.
It's not a tame beast.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, no, it isn't. Sometimes you've got a good game
plan and then you know, Mike Tyson comes in, sucks
you and the job there, It all goes, It all
goes out the window. Nate, good luck to the two
of us next year at the World Series, and you
know I'll be at Barcelona. You will not be, but hopefully,
(13:18):
you know, hopefully we will run well and play well
in whatever we undertake next. Let's have some of that
ten all ins in a row. Luck rub off on us.
So congratulations to everyone. I hope everyone had a good
World Series. And with that, Nate, let's take a break
and talk to Leo Margett's Nate and I are so
(13:51):
excited to welcome a very special guest, Leo Marrigettes, who
has become the first woman in thirty years to make
the final table of the WSOP main event. This really
is a historic event, no matter what some people on
Twitter may say, and we are so. I was so
excited to talk to her about it, to talk about
(14:12):
her run, and just in general talk some poker and
some historic achievements. Welcome to the show. We're so happy
to have you.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Thank you, Maria, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So Leo. You and I I think I met you
right away when I started playing poker back back, you know,
six years ago, but you'd been playing already forever, and
I was like, wow, she's she's done so much, So
why don't you just start off by telling us kind
of what this year means to you and kind of
in the scope of your poker career, because you've been
playing for over a decade years.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That was my siventing seven.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Oh my god, almost two decades.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
That's yeah, I'm a nine ers.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
It was my seventeenth main event every year scenes two
thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Wow, Nate, how many main events have you played?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I played nine?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I think my first film was in two thousand and
nine or eleven.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I skipped I skipped it.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
By all right. So Leo, Nate and I together have
played fewer main events that you that you have played
by yourself.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
When I say I've played seventeen to many events, it
looks so alien to me, you know, likes if I
don't relate because I have I'm zero burnout with poker.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
I love the game. I love intrinsically the game.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Like, so that motivation or that drive was the one
that didn't ever let me burn out.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That's great. How did you you know during the main
how did you make it so that, like your brain
could stay focused as opposed to letting external things get
to you, because it's so the main is hard. It's
so long, right, if you go deep, it's so many days.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, it's definitely an energy game.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Maybe since twenty eighteen, I usually do an extent every
long series, an extent where I at the end of
the day, I rank myself on whatever for categories like
goals in mind, focused, technical skills, and then it's very
interesting to see how ranking helps me stay in track,
because like imagine you go to the gym and day
(16:16):
one you can do ten reps with one hundred killers
in squad. If you do that every day for a week,
on day eight, you're one hundred percent without rest.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
No way is going to be ten reps with one
hundred killers.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
And physically we all see it, but mentally it's not
so easy to see unless we note it, because you
might think on day eleventh of as series, online or life,
you can tell to yourself, being honest, no, I'm giving
my one hundred percent. So you feel chill because you think, yeah,
I'm doing my one hundred percent, but you're one hundred
(16:53):
percent is a fraction of what can be. You're one
hundred percent maybe sixty percent of what your potential one
hundred percent can be.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
So this extral helps me a lot because.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
When I start having sevens in my grades, I just
take a day off and it helps. The next day
I improved so much.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
And then also I realized that it was a good
idea for me to write my goals as if my
ideal LEO, what will my idea LEO?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Do you know?
Speaker 5 (17:25):
Accepting, I discovered that to play well, I need to
have fun in the table. And this together with what
I was dealing with writing my goals and thinking that
I wanted to be the only one validating my decisions.
You know, like as long as I could explain to
myself why I was doing something, I don't care about
external people judging.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
There will always be people judging.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
And yeah, that made it actually easy because it was
like I was approaching every day with zero expectations and
zero of fear and like zero fear of basting, zero
fear gero anxiety to win. It was just Okay, I'm
going to focus on every hand the best I can.
(18:10):
I'm gonna have fun, I'm gonna take my time to
make every decision, and.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I'm super happy because I was.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I mean, this is I think that my biggest accomlument
I was the leo I would have liked to be
in that in a spot like this, right that. Of course,
you even when you read the final table, you think, okay,
I'm very calm, but still I was ready to experience
some nerves. And I mean I did have beat, but
(18:39):
it was nerves.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I was.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
I was where I wanted to be, So it was
such a nice experience.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, I think one thing you realize, right, and I
have not made it nearly as deep as you Leo.
I have had to stay six and day five in
the past couple of years. The nerves build, at least
for normal people. Maybe you're not normal, right, for normal people,
and I think even all that, like the top people
(19:07):
who have like made multiple final ties before, Right, there's
some point at what you're playing poker for more money
than you ever have or perhaps ever will, right, you know?
For me, I think kind of the inflection point comes
at like day four at the dinner break, where you're
in the money now a lot of people are busted
and you're like, okay, ninety three percent of people have
(19:30):
been a limit for this tournament. All my friends I
usually get dinner with are gone playing some other event. Right,
how are you dealing with the increasing stress? Are you
trying to put it out of your mind? Are you
trying to get in a zone where you channel it
in some ways? But what's And you had a deep
run in a while ago, like two thousand and nine, right,
(19:51):
did that help? How were your coping mechanisms?
Speaker 5 (19:54):
I guess well, I did run my first ever main event,
and I am so grateful that I had the chance
to improve from all the things I did back back
By then, like a just being a look in.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
The phone the day before and being very.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Susceptable you have, even to the comments and getting all
these dopamine rush from everyone saying stuff. So I was
so happy to be able to do things better after
they six, not opening Instagram anymore, not taking the phone,
just proactively texting whoever I wanted. I texted my parents
(20:36):
and said, hey, I'm alive. I'm actually doing very well.
Don't worry for me and the rest.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
I have to say I didn't feel any pressure.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
I know people think I might, you know, like because
it was such a dibra and long time since a
women didn't do it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
But I didn't feel any pressure I had.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
I just wanted to give my best right and the
challenge really was that once I made the main event.
I once I made the final table, it was a
bitterly for many people, even for myself. I felt so happy,
but at the same time, it was not done. I mean,
it actually just started. I get the goosebumps when I
(21:19):
say it, because but the feeling that everyone's was already
celebrating it was a bit contradictory because you also wanted
to relax and think wow, so good.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
But then.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
I had the fucking incredible chance in my life to
be in a spot where you know, you can do
super big, even if it was already very good. And
I remember having a chat the night before Adri and
Steph and talking to them and and Adrid said, do
you know you can win this thing? Right? And it's
like and then he said, and you know you can
(21:56):
win this thing and you can bust first hand. And
these words didn't fail overwhelming. It felt, yeah, I'm gonna
I'm gonna play this. I'm gonna do my best, you know.
And happily I don't have any regrets even if I had,
because it could happen, you know, pressure whatever. I could
have had regrets on how I played, I'm very happy
(22:17):
that I don't.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
But I was even ready to make.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Mistakes if you know, I can give my best and
still make some mistakes. But I I am happy with
the play, with how I plate, with how I handle
the situation. So yeah, just like incredibly grateful also to
share it, like with my close friends that were there,
with my team, with the community, because after everything passed,
(22:42):
I realized, how, you know, how much people had been
routing and it's so cool to be in a spot
where you want.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
You could feel the energy.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I could feel Michael's mom like on my way to
the final table, she just said, oh, you know, my
heart is divided because my son is also there.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
But I you know, this kind of stuff, this kind
of like we all have people in our lives. I
reflect better than that.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
We all have people in our lives that loves us
or support us. But it's not that gom on to
be that lives pood in us both where people can
show you they're support and their love in sata granibre.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Way, something that you said earlier. I just want to
point out for for everyone because I think it's so
important and people forget it. You could tell watching the
final table, like watching the runs, like you could tell
the whole time like there were people who were, you know,
just super focused, which obviously like it's a main event,
it's good, but you were all you were playing well,
(23:46):
but you were having a blast and you could actually
feel that energy. And I think that that's so important
to remember. I mean, poker is a phenomenal way to
learn how to think better. Right. It is such like
a It is an incredibly powerful, you know, mental tool,
all of these things, but it's also a game, right,
It's also supposed to be fun, and I think people
(24:08):
lose sight of that, and I wonder, you know, I
would love to think that part of your exceptional performance
was due to the fact that you had a blast, right,
that you were actually enjoying yourself.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Well, because I don't know other people, but I also
I mean, in poker can be tool also to know
yourself better, right exactly exa absolutely for me this year,
and it's been seventeen years that I've been playing at
this more seriously, I realized, I give my best when
I'm having fun, and at the end, we are lucky
(24:39):
enough to put our time and energy and effort into
a game, and yeah, what are games for?
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Like Like, I in the same way that when I trained.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
In the gym, I enjoy I have fun and that's why,
probably why I stick to it. With poker is the same,
like it was so different. I don't think I've ever
had so much fun. And in a way, there was
a couple of hours that I didn't have any.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
Fun from ninety hours of play, no, and then I
went when I was not having fun, I went again
to rushing decisions.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
I remember a hand with with Michael, I just snapped
folded to avoid the uncomfortability, me not having fun, me
not having fun, embracing uncomfortable spots. Hey, poker is gonna
bring you uncomfortable spots.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
In the beginning of the series, I was so much
in the mood that I even wanted to experience those
uncomfortable situations because it's gonna happen if you avoid them.
You know, it's impossible you perform well because it's like
it doesn't happen. You know, you cannot just seek easy
sports or easy decisions. So I just needed to switch
(25:49):
my mind and say, hey, let's embrace and comfort. I
was almost curious and looking forward to get those uncomfortable
spots that come from playing poker, especially in high level,
lead level. You know, like you're gonna accept it. You're
gonna go through on comfortable spots, and you need to
deal with them and done with them, because if you
just asking them one of the time, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, and you're never gonna learn. You know. I love
that you're pointing out the importance of taking your time.
This is something I need to work on as well,
because I'm a fast player. I make quick decisions. I
don't like tanking. I don't like when people tank, Like
you know, I'm one of those people who calls the clock.
And but it's something that like, sometimes I've made big
(26:35):
mistakes because I've acted too quickly. And I think that sometimes,
you know, it's easy to kind of just snap full snap,
you know, just just make those quick decisions because you think.
But something that you that you said, even though like
just to make sure that you're not missing something, just
to kind of think it through. I think that in
poker and in life, we often don't write. We we
(26:57):
often don't take the time to just make sure and
instead we just act. And I think that that's just
such an important reminder that I'm glad that that was
something that that you've brought up explicitly.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
As you said, it also happened to me when it
was one of my leaks.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
It was one of the columns I raised myself for
today because I leak on that sometimes it's not playing
too fast, and I know some of the mistakes I
made worse because of that, because I believe I can
think well right like I can have Obviously, as I said,
I don't know anything, and there's always so much time,
that's so much.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Room for improvement.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
But at least if I make a mistake, is I
want it to be because there's something I don't know,
not because it's something I could have got there if
I just allowed myself a couple more minutes to think.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, that gap between the kind of idealized leo and
the actual one. Because we've all had hands as poker players,
but everybody, right, I assume that like in the moment,
you're like, boy, if I were a really good player,
I would fold this hand, or if I were a
really good player, I would turn this hand into a bluff.
And you're tired, and you and you don't do it right,
(28:08):
and you kind of know you're not doing it, and
like somehow you're not capable of like just pushing your
hand in a different motion. Did you have a big
stack early in the main or when did you start
to like think I can make the final table.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Never?
Speaker 5 (28:20):
I just well, I was focusing on every hand, and
that's the good thing.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I didn't have any expectations. The expectation the goal.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
Is not honestly, and that's why I'm more like proud
about it, because I didn't really thought I'm going to
make finance they want, so all of a sudden we
weren't in the final dayment and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
That's great, So do you I mean obviously people will
you know, talk about this. It is kind of a
historic moment, you know, first time in thirty years, first
time in the modern era. Not to take anything away
from Barbara and right, but making it through like two
hundred players is very different from making your through ten
thousand players, right, It's a totally different game. So do
(28:59):
you are you know, for others it's a big deal
for you, Like, now that it's over, is this a
big deal? Is it going to change kind of how
you what you're doing going forward? Or was it just
one more tournament that you went deep in and now
it's kind of on to the next.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
I mean, yeah, onto the next.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
But enjoying the experience, right, Like I think we've all
dreamed of that, and all of a sudden I was
living what we all dreamed. Like I want to enjoy sugary, right,
But I don't feel like, you know, you get all
these now you represent now all the women fighting, I
think this is a bit alien to me. Like I'm
super glad if someone being women men whatever can feel
(29:42):
inspired by what I did or feels good.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But I.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Don't dare to say.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
I represent all the women that you know play poker,
and no I mean dry like I think we represent ourselves.
It's individual represents themselves. But at the same time, I
feel very honored that someone can get inspired and regarding.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Life is going to change to be hones. I feel less.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Motivated to play one to play one case. But besides that, No,
I'm not gonna start playing tryon. I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna take a year of I'm not I'm just gonna.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
I'm just gonna keep grinding as I did.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I love I'm lucky that I love the game. I
love putting time into getting better. I am very well
surrunded also, and I think it's key or to be
able to talk hands and talk think poker, which is
also very lucky.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I'm not it's not gonna change much.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
By the way, the day that there's a daybreak before
the final table, right, how did you spend that time?
Were you prepping, were you taking care of friends, were
you sleeping? Were you having a really nice day by
the pool or what did you do?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
I tried, and I took it as another day of
the main event, but without cards.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But my approach was, this is not a day off,
this is a.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Day of of mainland, but we are just not playing
with cards.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
So I stick to my routine. I slept. Can you
believe this is crazy?
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Can you believe that the day I slept better was
of all vera I slept fucking nine hours was the
day before the final table?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Now I can't believe that.
Speaker 7 (31:29):
I cannot believe it thither, but that's how Sid I
was and happy to be her right like it gave me,
and it gave me also so much confidence the fact
that I had slept so much, No, because it didn't
what you know.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
But back to the day itself. I trained, I went
for lunch, very chill. I didn't do much social I'm
not I'm a bit introverted anyway, so I needed time
and it was a day for myself a lot, I think.
I went for lunch and then I had a meeting
with Adri and Steph for a couple of hours, and
then at eight o'clock I was having dinner by myself
(32:03):
and I was left at nine thirty.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So Maria and I you were actually our first desire
to have on the show this week, more than the
man who won the main event, Michael MSRAI. If he
wants to come on, we'll happy you to have him
on in a future week. What was it like to
play against him? I mean, I mean again, yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
You know, ah. I like his vibe.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
He's so uncomfortable, he's so uncomfortable to being the table,
which is the biggest compliment, right that someone can tell you.
And I think at some points he was speaking on me.
I could see how he played, and I know he
was speaking on me to be extra aggressive because he
was putting so much bluffs then needed on Hans versus
me and instead cutting himself on bluffs against for example,
(32:54):
other people, which you know, like it's poker, right, and
it worked, and.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I just I don't know. Some people we didn't talk much,
but some people just the.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Vibe you like it, and I liked his vibe.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I love it. I love it. By the way, for
people who don't realize that when you're talking about Adre
on your rail, that's Adrian Matteos, who is one of
the best, if not the best, tournament players in the world.
So you definitely had like one of the best minds
in poker by your side and helping you through this.
(33:30):
Just to add Tonate's question, did you guys talk all
about the dynamic you know with the grinder? Did you
talk about specific players and specific exploits or not?
Speaker 5 (33:38):
Did you just kind of this threatenedy? You know, he
was so cool, like he was super nice. He told
me I could any doubt, I could write him any
moment of the day. It was I felt really supported
by all the team, but yeah, especially by by Adri
And we talked more about the spot, right, like being
in a spot could be so overwhelming that he so
(33:59):
I had confidence. So it was very good because the
things we talked it just work to validate my approach
to the day.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
I think that, you know, it was It's not just
inspiring because of how far you went, but just how
you played right. It's it's good to watch that and
to see someone succeed while having a smile, while having
a good time and not being scared. Right, like you
you put it out there, like you ran big bluffs,
like you made big calls, like you you actually you
(34:30):
know sure, like you can think back to the ninth hand,
but like forget it like that happens happened, right, shit
happens like we all we've all been in that the.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Less word you are about making mistakes, like the less
a perfectionists you become, the more toolet and you are
with mistakes.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Paradoxically, the less mistakes you do right.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well, do you have so you know, for everyone listening
and for for everyone who followed your journey, do you
have any kind of parting words of wisdom you've already
shared so much or anything that you want you want
to kind of things.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
To promote person?
Speaker 5 (35:07):
Now that's like, I really you want to say thank
you again because I've even.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Never felt so.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
Supportive, so supported with so many people asking my cards,
like I felt the energy.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And also this is so much nicer shared right like.
Speaker 5 (35:30):
And in the same way that you know you you
try not to take two serious comments from people you
don't know, because when it's bad, you know you wouldn't
you wouldn't accept an advice.
Speaker 4 (35:44):
From these people.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
So it's good to keep that this that these times
also when the feedback is good, because something I like
a lot to think in bad moments, it's applicable for now.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
No like these two show pass right like, now you
are a super hero. Now everything is good bad. You know,
at the end of the day, I'm.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
So much more than just a playing, which I think
at the same time is good because I don't create
my identity from playing. And I think this is a
good advice for in general, but for players, for for
people that play for fun, for people that play. I mean,
I don't like to give advice because it's a bit
like oh and so listened advice, But since you asked,
(36:27):
I think to to not link your identity with with
your game is quite healthy mentally because you know, things
go well, things go bad, you go through with you
have super incredible differends and you are still you right
and shouldn't be your results that validate you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That is a really wonderful message I think to to
to remember to internalize, uh to to end on. And
also like, I think it's one of the reasons why
you ended up doing so well this year. So for I,
Nate and I do not see you as being defined
by your results. That said, congratulations on an incredible result.
(37:11):
It's really it's really wonderful. It was a pleasure watching you,
rooting for you, and we're so glad that we had
the chance to have you on that.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
I had asked for time also in this tat and yeah,
I hope to see you live running together the main
um in Barcelona.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Let's do it. So that was our conversation with Leo Marchettes.
So let's take a quick break now and then we'll
hear from Eric's sidell So today on the show, we've
(37:46):
got a very special guest with us, a poker legend,
Poker Hall of Famer, ten time World Series of Poker
Bracelet winner. As of now we are recording this in
May World Poker Tour title holder, EPT title holder, you know,
Triple Crown winner, basically every title that exists. He has
(38:07):
high roller extraordinaire. Welcome to the show, Eric's idel.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
That's a very generous intro.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Well, and of course Eric's greatest claim to fame is
teaching me how to play poker. It is, so Eric,
let's you know, we're gonna talk a lot of poker
and risk and all of that. But why don't we
start off by just kind of going back to the
beginning to you know, little Eric growing up, how did
(38:35):
your interest in games and in poker even originate? How
did you even get introduced to that world. Were you
someone who was curious about it from a young age?
Is it something that came later.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I started playing back emmon when I was in high school,
and then that led me to a place called the
Game Room, which was on the Upper West Side, and
then ended up going to the Mayfair, which was a
well known back Ammon and bridge club in those days,
and played back em in there for years, and a
(39:07):
poker gamy ended up developing in the Mayfair. At the time.
They didn't allow any pros in, which is very helpful
to me because I was terrible, so I got to
play with other people who are also terrible, and I
would say it just slowly started to take over the Mayfair,
(39:29):
and I mean eventually the Mayfair ended up being a
poker club.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Eric, So you kind of sort of played games professionally
in the sense that you know, paid the bills. But
then you had a little detour and you went to
Wall Street, which is a gambling of a much gambler
nature than poker. I would say, talk a little bit
about kind of how your background in games prepared you
for that and how you you know, how you ended
(39:53):
up then transitioning back and playing poker full time, leaving
Wall Street for a career that you know, many people
would say, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I do think it was a natural transition to go
from playing games to Wall Street. And you see a
lot of poker players now going out to Wall Street.
But while I was working on Wall Street, I was
also flying out to play cash games in Vegas. I
didn't I didn't like being on Wall Street. I didn't
like having to wear a tie, and there's there's a
(40:27):
competitive and a pettiness there. And I didn't like trading
on the floor where people are fighting for ones and
twos and it was it's kind of an ugly environment
and I really didn't like being part of it. I
just felt like to be rewarded trading options on the floor,
you really need to be a dick, you know, and
(40:49):
and try and screw people over it. And that was
basically that was what was being done to me. And
it wasn't It didn't feel good.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Our listeners might think, uh, boy, isn't poker kind of
cut through? But there's like a kind of camaraderie among players.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
And Rick, you played in like some of the biggest,
most famous games of all time. I mean, has that
camaraderie lessened over the years as you kind of had
more tourists and professionals, or I mean, what's what was
this scene like when you're kind of young, young, skinny kid,
I guess, and trying to get your feet wet in
Vegas which you don't yet know that Well.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
It was fine because I knew enough people. And the
nice thing about poker is you can. I mean, now
it's changed a little bit where there are more private
games in Vegas, but in those days, all the games
were open and that was kind of part of the
laws that you got to play if if you wanted to.
It was it was competitive, but it was it was
(41:53):
never unfriendly. I mean, it can be exhausting, but it's
also I also really enjoy the environment. I like rooting
for friends and things like that in.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Terms of thinking about decision making and risk taking in
really high stake situations and under bright lights, right when
people are looking and people are watching how you're playing.
Because these days, I know in the past this wasn't
the case, but these days they're all streamed, right, so
people know exactly how you're making decisions. How do you
(42:24):
deal with that? Right, how do you keep executing at
a high level after you've been playing for multiple days,
You're tired, everyone's watching, and the stakes are so high
because the payouts keep going and going up and the
pay jumps are huge. And I feel like this is
one of the things that might might be the most
applicable to real life, because I think people always want
(42:46):
to know, you know, how do I make good risk
decisions when the stakes are the highest.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
If you're playing a tournament. One of the nice things
about a tournament is that the further you go along,
the more that's at stake. And I think that's helpful
because now you're really rewarded for paying attention and bringing
of this. And so I mean, I do think sometimes
(43:13):
I have to remind myself to get back to just
being present and being in being, you know, watching the
action stuff like that, But it does. It is easier
as you get closer to a final table or you
get closer to a win, because there's just more at stake,
and it's just it becomes more interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
That's really interesting, Nate. Do you find that as well,
just in poker and in life, because there I think
it's true of me and in a certain respect that
as kind of as the pressure builds, you actually perform better. Right,
Because there are different people. There are people who kind
of can't perform under pressure, and then there are people
who do their best at kind of high stakes moments.
(43:56):
And it seems like Eric is the high stakes performer.
I'd like to think that I am too. How do
you see it, Nate?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I mean, I think you've made more deep runs in
the past couple of years than I have, Maria. You know,
like I have felt increasingly comfortable when the pressure does now,
especially its like weaker fields, right where like, Okay, if
I've made day threes a couple dozen times in my
life and this is their second time, then I'm inexperienced
(44:23):
relative to a lot of people. But you've been through
that a little bit before. It also helps. I think
I like when events are on TV because even though
it adds some annoyances like what am I wearing?
Speaker 3 (44:32):
How do I look?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I think it puts more pressure on other people by comparison. Yeah,
because I'm not sure if people do better under pressure
or that they do less bad than they choke less
than others. Right, But yeah, look, I mean, Eric, how
do you stay sharp? Right, Because let's say you're having
(44:54):
a mediocre World Series and then finally after six weeks, right,
you just barrel through a tournament, a big event, right,
you're the chip leader. It's on to day four or something.
I mean, what's your routine like during the series to
to pace yourself or stay sharp or early above.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Well, I mean, but the World Series, it's really just
you're playing, you're eating, you're going to sleep. So it
just there's no I mean, there aren't really. You just
have to avoid distractions. It's funny because every year it
comes around and you think, like, oh, good, so and
Sound is going to be in town. Hopefully I'll get
to have dinner with them or whatever. And it's just
(45:36):
it's always a mistake to think that way because it's
such an all immersive thing that you are. If you're
not playing, you're in recovery and just you know, every
date it goes like that for you know, for the
whole world's here, it's six or seven weeks. Mario's smart
because she takes a few days off and she'll you know,
she'll go take a little mini vacation. I think that
(45:59):
really helps.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
But yeah, no, I do always do that before the
main event, because it really helps clear my mind and
kind of get me out of any funk that I
might be in. I find that that's very useful. And Eric,
one of the things that I love, not just about
the World Series, but just about your approach to poker
in general, is that you're one of the only players
I've met who is okay to end up missing an
(46:23):
event that you had planned on playing, right, that you
actually like in some ways. Obviously you're incredibly competitive, but
in some ways you don't have ego in the moments
where it matters, and you're okay to say, you know what,
I'm not feeling up for it, or this field looks terrible,
and even though I planned on playing this, you know,
one hundred thousand dollars buy it or whatever it is,
(46:44):
I'm not going to do that. And most players they'd
feel their ego bruise, right, They're like, no, I can compete,
you know in this, I'm going to play how you know?
How are how are you thinking about those moments? Because
you know it's that takes a lot of self knowledge
and discipline to do that.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Well. Yeah, I also have a no suffering rule. Stuff.
I wake up and I'm just you know, and I'm tired.
I just won't play if I'm dragged. It just it.
I don't want to be unhappy at the table, and
especially at an event like the World Series, where there
are just so many events every day, you have to
(47:22):
be very conscious of what kind of energy you can bring.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
No suffering rule, that's amazing. I think we should all
implement that. If you wake up and you feel like
this is going to be suffering, you just say.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
No, yeah, exactly are you trying to bracelet match? Are
you trying to compete with No? I mean, I'm not
one of those guys. I don't play that as many
tournaments as the guys who are bracelet hunting. I feel
like I have enough bracelets and I don't really have
to chase them anymore. And it's also like it's one
(47:59):
of these things where if you win one, it's some
kind of mini miracle. I just don't like to think
that way. I just want to play, Like, for instance,
this summer, there's some cool tournaments at the WIN and
I'll be playing those, you know, which are not bracelet events,
but just you know, it's nice to play at the
WIN and they run good tournaments.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
So nay, ten bracelets. Do we think that's enough? I
think I think we.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Need to know.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I think thirteen bakers doesn't.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
Let's not be let's sucking.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, Eric, was there a moment when
you're like poker has changed? When were there like inflection
points that you remember?
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Well?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
At the main one really is computers coming into the game,
and that's really changed things over the last I don't know,
eight years. I'm not sure how long it's been, but
it's really it just it has changed everything. I have
a friend who jokes with me that I've been saying
for about thirty years that the game is too tough
(48:55):
and I need and I need to stop playing. But really,
more recently, the computers have made it a much greater challenge,
but it's still you know, it's made it's made it
more difficult for me to play, but it's also made
it more interesting and uh, and it is. It's fun
(49:17):
to play against these computer guys and to and also
to see how much the game has it evolved. So
I enjoy being part of that and trying to figure
things out in this more modern computerized the world.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, and I mean you're you're still succeeding. Right at
EPT Monte Carlo, you came in third in one of
the high rollers. You've won several of your bracelets in
the last few years, so clearly you're you're still able
to compete at a high level. Do you you know,
how do you prepare not just for the World Series
but for series in general. Do you work with solvers
(49:53):
kind of what does your what does your study routine
look like? And has it changed significantly over the years.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah, it's definitely changed a lot. I mean, it used
to be you didn't really have to do anything. You
just showed up and played, you know, which was really nice.
It just it was a different time and there were
some bugs, but the bucks really weren't that relevant to play.
It was nice back then you could just you could
just show up and play. And now, yeah, you have
(50:23):
to study. You have to study solvers and study openings.
It's you know, I think that there are people now
who are completely immersed in it or studying and playing
and that's kind of all they do. It creates, you know,
an extra challenge to go up against people like that,
but it's also you know, it's interesting and exciting and
(50:46):
it's you know, it's fun. I feel like I'm as
much a fan as I am a player, and you know,
sit down at the table and I'll be like, Wow,
these guys are just so good. This is really fun.
You know, that's great.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
And I think that's probably one of the reasons why
you're still so good, right is because you are. It's
the ego thing again. You're you're learning from from others
and you're kind of incorporating it into your game. I
remember one hand, so a few years ago, I think
it was Poker Go released some of the archives from
like the earliest earliest World Series events, and they had
(51:23):
some footage from nineteen eighty eight, so the famous World
Series where you came in second to Johnny Chan and
they they had footage of just at the final table
before you guys were heads up, and I still remember
you just going bananas with a small pocket pair right
(51:45):
there was like a raise and a call and you
had I think it was pocket four's and you just
like gripped it. So talk about first of all, fearlessness
and secondly, no one was doing that right like these days,
you know that these make actually really good bluffs, But
if you were looking at people's game back then that
was just absolutely not done. Obviously, you were young, and
(52:06):
you would say young and stupid. I'd say, you know, young,
young and fear. But those plays like where did that
come from? Was that just intuition patterns? Like what were
do you? Do you remember how you thought of doing
things that nobody had done before.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
I do remember I was very focused on reads and
things like that, and I was I was pretty reckless,
I think, you know, especially you know, if you talk
about nineteen eighty eight, I didn't really know what I
was doing and I was really but I do remember
feeling like, this is really fun because you get reads
from some of these players that I wasn't getting in
(52:45):
the game back in New York, and it was like
it was very exciting for me to think, Wow, I
can play with these people and I didn't. I didn't
have any any experience outside of New York. And it was.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Were the reads fact in obvious or just that you
have a knack for picking that up, or more experience
or people better about avoiding tells now?
Speaker 3 (53:09):
I think they were more obvious back then, and I
think people were less concerned about timing and patterns and
things like that. So you know, it was just you know,
everybody was kind of playing by the seat of their
pants back then, so there really were a lot of opportunities.
And also, you know, I just when you don't know
(53:31):
what you're doing, you can really push things pretty far.
Let's say it's the.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
First day of the main event. I assume you like
the main Event, Eric, You're not one of these.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
I love the main Event. I hope I can play
it every single year. I really get a kick out
of it. It's day one.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Maybe you're you, you have some media trailing you, but
everyone assume everyone knows who you are at the table, right,
how are you adjusting to that, right to being a
known person where there might be some inhimidation factor. There
are thousands of hours of you playing poker on tape, right,
how do you adjust to, say, like a rank amateur
(54:10):
playing against you versus like a nervous kid who looks
up to you, versus like another another pro.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
I'm trying to play against each person individually, but I
don't really feel like any kind of reputation or anything
like that is going to is going to be helpful.
It's like, I don't feel like there are those types
of exploits where people will be more reluctant to play
a hand with me because because they proceed me to
(54:37):
be a good player or well known or whatever. I think,
if anything, they might be more likely to play a
hand because it's kind of fun for them, you know,
to have a story to tell the people back home,
So they might be a little bit more likely to
try and bluff me that kind of thing. But I
try and play it, you know, as straight as possible.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
So in some ways you've become Johnny Chan in rounders,
where Matt Damon just wants to bluff you just to
be able to say that he bluffed Johnny Cham.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
I think that exists. I really do think that exists.
I remember being at a table with a world champion,
uh in a in a big tournament, and he the
guy raised him and he moved all in and he
said to the guy, don't you want to, you know,
play against the world champion. You know. The guy ended
(55:29):
up calling and it was just it was so ridiculous.
But I do think that goes through some people's minds,
is so I think it does. It probably raises it
raises the risk that somebody's gonna try and bluff you, uh,
And I think that if it's televised, it's even more dramatic.
I think people people don't want to be seen as
(55:52):
somebody who's being bluffed on TV. And if they can
bluff you on TV, then they have, you know, then
then they can go back and be a hero in
their own game.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
How much impact was there for you from losing the
Immortalized by Rounders heads up match against Johnny Chang? Was
that like, were you still happy the next morning because
you got fucking second place? Or was it like do
you have like lifelong regret for me to where are
you on that spectrum?
Speaker 3 (56:21):
The funny thing about that is, to me, that's still
one of my favorite tournaments ever, just because I was
really at the very beginning of my career and I
had no idea how my skills would be applied at
the World Series. I had a couple of people in
the game that encouraged me to go, but I had
no confidence that I would that I was going to
(56:43):
be a favorite in the World Series, or that I
could go deep and to have that experience of going
through those four days and you know, trying to outplay
people and the whole thing I mean, it was amazing
for me. I just I love that tournament still. I
still have, you know, great feelings about that. To me,
(57:05):
The fact that I lost is it's not really a
big deal. You know, you win tournaments and you lose them,
you know, I don't I really have good feelings about that,
you know how you know, each day of that tournament,
how fun it was to see like, hey, I'm playing
with these guys, I'm doing well, you know, and I'm
(57:26):
seeing some fun things I'm seeing, you know, I'm you know,
finding some creative plays that you know, because you're just
making things up as you go law And I think
for me, at least, I was discovering a lot of things,
you know at that time.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
Well, I think that that is a wonderful note to
go out on, because that is that is kind of
a peak accomplishment, even though you did not end up
winning that bracelet. But do you have any you know,
as I'm sure that a lot of poker players are
listening to this or and aspiring poker players, do you
want to leave? You know, the first question I ever
(58:03):
asked you, I'm gonna I'm gonna end the interview with it,
which is if you could tell one thing, kind of
one piece of advice for for poker players who are
either starting out or at any point in their journey.
What would it be.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Well, I remember I told you to pay attention, and
I still think that applies because there's just there's so
much information. I feel like people are teaching you how
to beat them if you just pay enough attention to
their patterns and and what they're doing. So if you're
paying enough attention, then you know that that that's a
(58:36):
big exploit.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
I think that those are those are wise words and
very difficult. So phone bands, yay.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
I want to ask you one question about my co host.
When you were coaching Maria, when did you think that
she had real potential for the game.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
Maria was an exciting project. I mean just because she
she came from nowhere. She she you know, she didn't
know how many cards were in a deck. But I
think what I mean what happened with her was she
she just worked so hard and so that was that
was really that's the key to how successful she was.
Is she really she was interested, she was open minded,
(59:16):
and she you know, and she was willing to put
the work in. And for me, it's it's just it's
really thrilling to see that she's still playing. I really,
I really got to kick out of the fact that
she's still playing and still doing well. I continues to
do well, so it's fun to sweat her well.
Speaker 1 (59:36):
Thank you for your time today, and thank you for
your time throughout our entire relationship, because you have given
me more hours of your life than than anyone has
any right to ask for. So thank you for joining us.
This was an absolute pleasure, and.
Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah, it was all mine. I'm a fan of the pod.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
Thank you friend of the pod. Nate likes to call
people friends of the pod, so thank you friend of
the pod here.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
I know that's a big upgrade. I like it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Let us know what you think of the show. Reach
out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.
And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber,
we have some bonus content for you today. It's more
from our interview with Leo Marjetz that's coming up right
after the credits.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
And if you're not subscribing, what's wrong with you? Consider
signing up For just six hundred and a month. You
get access to that premium content and add free listening
across Pushkin's entire network of shows.
Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanikova.
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co
production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced
by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwin. Sally
Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.
Mixing by Sarah Bruger.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Hosts And Creators
Maria Konnikova
Nate Silver
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