December 15, 2021 • 33 mins
Mike Gauyo is a TV writer in LA. Credits include Insecure (HBO) and Ginny & Georgia (Netflix) among other projects. He’s the founder of The Black Boy Writes Black Girl Writes Mentorship Initiative which is paving pathways for emerging Black writers in Hollywood.
Here are some resources Gauyo recommends in this episode:
Black Boy Writes Black Girl Writes
The Screenwriters Rant Room Podcast
The Screenwriter's Bible, A Complete Guide to Writing, Formatting, and Selling Your Script by David Trottier
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. This is Solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. We have
a really special episode for you today. You may recall
that back in September, I talked with TV writer Mike
Goyo about his work to support young black writers in Hollywood.
He mentioned then that his writing would be credited on
(00:37):
the upcoming and final season of Insecure. Well, as you
probably know, that season is well underway, so I asked
Mike to come back to Solvable and spill all his secrets,
or at least tell me more about what it was
like writing for Insecure. Here's our conversation, and stick with
us because at the end of this short chat, we'll
share our original episode about Mike's inspiring mentorship program called
(00:59):
the Black Boy Writes Black Girl Rights Mentorship Initiative. Here
we go. You know, I follow you on Instagram. I
saw your pictures. You do a big things with care
right now. Stopped you for the premiere party. I did
to myself. You look fantastic. I styled myself for for everything.
Um that look came together in less than twenty four hours. Honestly,
(01:24):
if I wasn't a writer, I would be in I
would be in fashion fair. Yeah, yeah, you got your
Instagram on lock Man like, no, thank you, thank you,
thank you. The premiere was great, and you know, this
is my first season writing on the show, but I've
been a fan of the show since it started, you know,
(01:44):
so being able to have that kind of like insider
experience to its history almost like just a museum, felt great.
It was awesome. So I know you've written for other
shows like you know, Jenny and Georgia. You know, writing
for a show like this where you're you're a fan
of the show from the beginning, does that change the
experience in the writer's room for you. It does. It does,
(02:07):
and emotionally in the sense of like, oh this is
my favorite show. Okay, I gotta do right by it.
I can't be out here pitching like crazy stuff things
that I wanted to see like season two, you know
what I mean. It's like, Noah, she should have went
with Daniel. Daniel like to tell you that, like the
(02:31):
I think the first day in the writer's room, I
was like, Okay, so this and this need to happen
because if you don't, like you know, I was like, okay,
my calm down. But yeah, I was, you know, incredibly
excited and to your point, it's different than Ginny and
Georgia only because Ginnie and Georgia is it was its
first season, so you originated stuff. Yeah, so come on originator. No.
(02:53):
But like the same kind of fanfare that people are
experiencing over Jenny and Georgia as z words I experienced
with Insecure. But when you're on a show and it's
like the inception of the show and you're starting with
the first season, then you and the other writers are
tasked with creating the world, with creating who these characters are.
(03:15):
So when you become a part of that process, it's
slightly harder to just be able to sit back as
a fan and you know, and of course we love
all the fans of the show and it it's become
an incredibly successful show and we love that. But it's
just a different experience, you know, Like with insecurests like
I didn't have to write it. I didn't have to
come up with these stories, and I could just enjoy
(03:38):
it as a fan and like pick my team. I
was like team Lawrence, team Nathan, Like who am I? Like?
Do you know what I mean? Yelvable podcast? All right,
I don't care. I didn't even ask anybody this is
a time podcast. You can tell Malcolm tell everybody's Lauren's
Time podcast. Come on alone time when I'm mad at
it and tell me Take me back forward a second,
(03:58):
take me through if you remember, and I'm sure you do.
What was your what was your first day working with
the team like? And I imagine was it was a
virtual were you in person? What was it like? It
was fantastic. What I'll say is I knew most of
the writers personally, and it was my first time working
with a lot of them professionally. So there's that kind
of like, Okay, Mike, don't be on here talking crazy
(04:21):
like you would having drinks drinks with this person, you know,
be professional, pitch beacup things like that. Say something smart
like you know what you're talking about. But it was
also different because it was my first virtual room because
remember we were all in the depths of quarantine and
(04:42):
that kind of like familial aspect of the writer's room.
You don't really get to build it as much on
Zoom Like it was very efficient, but that efficiency kind
of slightly stepped on some of the relationship building maybe,
but for the most part, like oh my god, the
(05:02):
room experience was fantastic. Wow. So did you ever get
to spend time on set and what was that like?
I did to get to spend time on set. I
love that you can't tell us everything, so I get it.
I appreciate that. So imagine you're gonna get me. I'm not.
(05:30):
I'm not, I'm not. So yeah. So you so you
had a good time? I imagine? Um, what was your
What was your favorite thing about about writing this season
or about helping out this season that you can share
talking about the larger themes of the show, and because
it's the final season, you're closing out these characters and
their experiences and you're wanting to kind of give them
their like full circle moment. Being able to discuss that
(05:55):
and having conversations around that was great because you you
get to assist in how these characters land emotionally in
the series. It's like, what are they learning? What is
coming up for them? What do we want the audience
to know as we finish out the series. One thing
that was really that we kind of landed on early
(06:17):
is that we wanted it to write like we were
getting a season six, so that we didn't feel the
pressure of, oh, we have to, like, you know, really
close out these characters in a huge way. Dada Insecure
has been about slightive life stories and also like what
it looks like if you were just you know, a
fly on the wall in this person's life, in this
(06:40):
particular section of this person's full life. So if that's
the case, then let's not concern ourselves with closing them
out in a way that feels finite, do you know
what I mean. It's not meant for you to feel like, oh, okay,
I'm never going to see that character again. It's meant
to feel like that character is living on in a
(07:03):
universe that you just don't get, you just aren't privy
to anymore. Yeah, that's all you kind of wanted to
feel like, Yeah, that's I kind of feel like that
when I watched my favorite shows on television. Now, you know,
when you look back to them over and over again,
it always feels good to just go back to that
episode and see that they're doing the same thing over
and over again, to timeloop and you could just go
(07:24):
visit them and see how this boding. You know, I
guess I like it with some of my shows get
revived and you get to see what they're doing. You're
going to update on them, But I feel like some
people take that too far. So I like what you're
saying to just consider them being in a universe somewhere
where I just I'm not privy to what they're doing.
And I think that's that's excellent ways to write. Do
you You know, with your with your foundation with black
(07:46):
boy Rights, black girl Rights, you have a lot of
advice for your mentees about you know, how to be
in the room and all that. Did you find yourself
using any of the advice that you have been giving
out as a mentor. I feel myself not using my
own advice. Okay, you know how I'm sitting there giving
them like page advice about like what to do. Yeah,
(08:08):
and I'm over here, like Mike, you're not even saying
what you said what you told them to do, so
you know what I mean? So I try to remember
that I am a member of the writing staff and
not not just like a fan anymore. So that kind
of like those those nerves that you might have about
(08:29):
feeling like, okay, is what are thing making sense? You know,
you quickly have to kind of dispel so that you
can be an effective communicator. Okay, So I'm gonna ask
you two questions that you probably can't answer, and that's okay,
what I want to ask of it. Hey, all right,
(08:50):
you can ask where there were there any particular lines
or anything that you wrote that we can listen for
coming up, coming up. In Nah, I can't tell you
that I care. There are a couple that I am
particularly proud of, and I have to like wait to
(09:10):
I have to remember if they even made the final cut.
But there are and I'm not saying anything. Okay, Well
we'll talk about it. We'll talk offline. Nobody's listening, right right.
Um by next question is, um, so you've done insecure now,
you know what I mean? And that's you know, that's
a pretty big feather in your cap. What do you
(09:31):
want to do next? I have been so blessed and
grateful to take on a few projects. I can't even
talk about them yet. That's the thing. I can't talk
about them that yet. They haven't been announced. Yeah, but
as soon as they are, Ronald, you know, I'm gonna
call you and be like, Yo, Ronald, what happened? This
(09:54):
is what I was talking about? What I was talking about?
So Mike. You know, I'm really glad that you took
the time to be here. I consider you a friend
to the show. You're the only guest that has returned,
well except for Malcolm, of course, but you're the only
gul You're the second that is that is Malcolm. Shout
out to Malcolm Gladwell. But we're glad to have you back.
Tell everybody how they can find you, and tell me
(10:16):
more about the work that you're doing with Black Boy
Rites and Black Girl Writes. Thank you. You can find
me on Twitter at black Boy Writes. You can find
me on Instagram also at black Boy Writes, but it's
a period in between each letter. Blackboyris and Blackgy Rites
is a mentorship initiative that I launched at the top
(10:36):
of twenty twenty one to help writers of color gain
access into the industry. You know, there are a lot
of talented writers out there that just need the access.
So please keep your eyes peeled for the twenty twenty
two class of mentees. I'm very proud of the program
and hope that it becomes like a mainstay in the Hollywood.
(11:00):
I hope it does too, man, I hope this is
the beginning of something very big for you and and
I'm really proud of the work that you're doing. I'm
really glad that you came back to the show, and
thanks for coming back. Thank you, thanks for having me.
Ronald now solvable listeners. Here's the episode we first published
back in September of twenty twenty one about Mike Goyle's
mentorship initiative Black Boy Rights, Black Girl Rights. This is solvable.
(11:28):
I'm Ronald Young Junior. We should be allowed to take
up space, not just allowed to take up space. We
should just be taking up space ourselves because we deserve it.
In recent years, calls for more diverse representation in Hollywood
and show business have grown louder and more frequent, whether
it's April Rain starting the hashtag oscar so white or
writer director actor Issa Ray using her large following to
(11:51):
be rooting for everybody black. There have been many public
calls for action around and criticism of the lack of
visibility for non white folks in Hollywood. Without visibility, there's
no change. Without visibility, there's no access. So it's really
about getting in front of as many eyes and ears
as possible to get your story out there and in
(12:13):
order to tell a story. You need to be in
the room where stories are written, specifically writers rooms. According
to a twenty seventeen report on representation in Hollywood and
in Television, of nearly four thousand writers, four point eight
percent of them were black, and over half of all
shows have zero black writers. Mike Goyo is one of
(12:34):
the very few who have made it to the inside.
We're in this space now. We have to build out
these programs for ourselves because if we don't build them out,
everything will remain the same. So we have to kind
of like take the initiative to do that. Goya's most
recent job was writing for a little show on HBO.
You might have heard me shout out on a previous
(12:56):
solvable episode. That show is called Insecure and Today. Goyo
is also the founder of a mentorship organization called Black
Boy Rites and Black Girl Rights. They help burgeoning writers
not only find their footing when entering a large white landscape,
but also offer support and a network as they continue
to grow their careers in Hollywood. The lack of creatives
(13:16):
of color in positions of power in Hollywood is solvable.
I met Etha early twenty fifteen, and like she had
a mixer at her production company for Creatives of Color,
and I went to that mixer, met her for all
of two minutes. But Etha, I mean I credit her
(13:38):
to helping me in my career. She has always helped
up and coming creatives. And I met several people there
that became my people, that became my tribe of people.
She was like, you know, look to the people in
the room to grow with, and that's exactly what I did,
you know, and that is my group chat Like that
is those are my people. We all came up at
(13:58):
the same time, we all got staffed around the same time,
we all continue to rise around the same time, and
she really helped make that happen. So it's about how
are all these creatives that are out here creative, the
colors that are coming up in the business, how they're
helping others come up. And I want to be able
to do the same thing. Originally, you weren't going to
(14:24):
be a writer, So tell me what your aspirations were
or what your parents wanted you to be originally. You
know what, I love that last minute correction there because
it really was my parents. I was like, my aspirations,
I don't think I knew what they were until my
parents told me what they were. No. Yeah, I was,
(14:46):
you know, being groomed to be a doctor by my parents,
you know, from a young age. That's the road I
went down. I didn't know anything else. But once I
got to college and I started taking you know, theater
classes and screenwriting classes, I was like, oh wow, I
really enjoy this. I also came across you know, organic stream,
(15:09):
was like, oh, okay, this is this is the enemy.
Definitely not getting past this level. You're a child of
Haitian immigrants, I am. The earthquake in Haiti in twenty ten,
it bore some influence on making the switch from becoming
a doctor to being fully focused on writing. Can you
(15:30):
talk a little bit about that, Ronald this his research. Basically,
what happened was my both my parents and my sister
were in Haiti during the earthquake, so we couldn't have
reached them for three days, so we were thinking the
worst at the time. My little brother, who's he's twelve
years younger than me, he was in my care at
the time, so I'm also having to think of like,
(15:52):
oh my god, like okay, my parents can't locate them.
I'm like, you know, trying to put aside thoughts about
like the idea of raising my little brother alone. So
after discovering they were okay and everything was fine, and
you know, they eventually flew back to the States. I
really had an aha moment of like, just a life
(16:14):
is too short to live for other people, and I
was really kind of living for everyone else but myself.
I was living for my parents. It just wasn't working
for me. I was really kind of like honestly depressed.
That's when I decided to change my major to the
theater with a concentration in creative writing. And then I
(16:35):
also came out in the same year to my parents too,
so that was that was what was that like for them?
I mean it was man when I when I changed
career path, my mother cried, was like, I can't believe
you're doing this. Oh you were, you know, on such
a good path. Now you're writing. I don't even know
(16:56):
what that is, what does that even mean? And then
my dad was like, it's gonna be all right. Just
let him fly, like, let him do what he wants
to do. He was very supportive in that way. And
then I was, oh, fantastic. And then later that year
when I came out, like my dad was crying and
my mom was like, let him do what he wants,
like you said, let him be free. I love that.
(17:19):
So yeah, that was really a pivotal year for me,
not just in my career what would become my career,
but in my life. You know, your story really resonates
with me because I was in it for most of
my adult life. I'm still fairly due to this job,
so I I appreciate that. So Viking, that adjustment was
(17:40):
something that it was easy to wrap my head around
because it was my dream job. But there were some
difficulties in terms of switching industries and learning the industry
and learning the people around me. My granted, I don't
think you did a career switch, but even starting in
this career in this world, tell me what that world
was like, especially for you a black man, Like, what
was that like? Interacting with all these folks and even
(18:00):
though it is your dream job, what was that like?
After graduating college, I knew that I wanted to Purdue Television.
I knew I want to move to LA So I
was making plans to move to LA. While making those plans,
I was working as a production assistant in Boston. You know,
I worked on the Equalizer as a production assistant with
(18:20):
Denzel Washington. I worked on American Idol. I worked on
a few other reality TV shows. But when I was
working on American Idol, who was in Boston for their
Boston auditions, I happened to mention a production like, Hey,
I'm moving to LA in a month, and I'm like, okay, great.
Once he moved to La, come work with us, and
I was like, oh, say no. More So, once I moved,
(18:42):
I had a job which was which was great. But
to your question, like when I got here, I felt like, Okay,
this is the opportunity I was asking the universe for.
So I need to kind of really focus and make
some connections, start networking. Part of the my success has
(19:06):
been building my network. And what I came to realize
very quickly that my network will dictate my net worth
in this business, and it's really about who you know
as well as your talent. Some have been able to
succeed with you know without both, but as if you're
(19:28):
a person of color, you will most likely you will
need both. It's far and being a person of color
in this industry trying to come up and being able
to create some type of like sustainable pathway program for
other writers, or some type of like access that stays
(19:49):
open for us is really important. So much of Hollywood
is about who you know across all areas of work.
Researchers have found that people in positions of power demonstrate
unconscious bias. That's when we hire people who look like
us or have a similar background or path the one
we follow. Some people have a conscious bias too, of course,
(20:11):
which leads to the same result. Doors shut to people
of color in TV and film. The many white writers
making it bring on other white writers, who in turn
bring on more white writers. Only seven of every twenty
writers is currently a person of color. Discrimination is perpetuated,
(20:41):
Mike with your organization, black boy writes, black Girl writes,
Are you seeking to create work and opportunities to overlooked
folks in writing or is it more that you're trying
to teach them about writing? Or is it both? It's
really both. Once you're in the program, some of the
features include writer round tables with other writers in the
business who are established, and we try to invite as
(21:05):
many people that feel like relay the to our mentees,
imparting you know, tips about writing and also just like
writer's room etiquette and things like that, like things you
would normally you would not know unless you were in
a writer's room. But it is also about providing access.
You know, these conversations that we're having with these you know,
(21:28):
established writers or like intimate conversations where they get to
be free to ask any type of question they'd like
to ask. They have some face time with the writers,
They get the writers contact information so that they can
contact them themselves and build like a personal their own
like genuine personal relationship with that person. I try to
provide them with access to securing general meetings with executives.
(21:54):
It's really about creating a sense of visibility for them
so that you can get the access that you need. Also,
once the program is over, we have an alumni system
where we're not going to let you just go off
on your own and expect you to fly. Yeah, it's
like it's like it's that thing of like when a
(22:15):
mother bird like watches there baby fly off the branch.
They at least look down to make sure that they
made it. Like that they're okay. So as soon as
like the program's over and it's really just a year program.
The intention is to keep up with all our alumni
and make sure that they are okay, make sure they've
(22:35):
made it, make sure that they still have what they need.
So Mike, like you, you give them a lot, Like
that's a lot for a person to get, like, especially
starting off as a writer. I imagine that this has
to be connected to something that you felt was lacking
as you were coming up in the program, Like, Man,
I wish it I had would have had this. I
wonder if you have any stories or anything that are
(22:57):
attached to what you did not have a kind of
what you had to fight for an advocate for yourself
growing up as a young black writer in the game.
You know what the funny thing is, Ronald, It's it's
because of what I had that I'm doing what I'm doing.
Do you know what I mean? It's of people that
came up before me who gave me a helping hand,
(23:20):
do you know what I mean? And who like and
pulled me up. Yes, I credit my career to hard
work and to ambition, right, but I also credited to
people who have been mentors of mine and who have
kind of like helped me in my career, all I
want to do is be able to like really pay
(23:41):
that back, pay that forward. I just went ahead with
that idea and started pursuing it. Mike Goyle was hardworking
and fortunate. He was able to land a job when
he first moved to LA He was able to mingle
with successful black writers, and he could afford to take
the time to show up in the places where they
(24:02):
were and offered to take them out for coffee or drinks. Persistence, networking,
playing the game. It all takes time and effort. Mike,
how do you feel about the necessity of a POC
community having to build our own networks in order to
even stand a chance. That isn't necessarily the case for
(24:26):
white folks, or it might be a little more naturally
built in for white folks than it is for black
folks who have to build our own network. I think
you hit it right on the head and the last
sentence there, it's like it's just they have been able
to build it out in a way that we have
not had the opportunity to, or when we have had
the opportunity to, you know, Telsa, it getting burned down.
(24:51):
So I think that right, I'm just saying we're getting real.
I'm just saying, but yeah, it's it's it's it's it's
not as natural for us, and that's why we have
to continue to work at it. But it's this thing
of like we're in this space now where we have
(25:14):
to build out these programs for ourselves because if we
don't build them out, everything will remain the same. So
we have to kind of like take the initiative to
do that. Do we have allies who want to help us, absolutely,
but we still have to put ourselves in that space
of building that out for ourselves. So I think some
(25:35):
of the stats that come to Hollywood and writing and
show business generally skew largely white. I mean a couple
years ago we had that controversy of hashtag oscars so white,
And in twenty nineteen twenty twenty, seventy percent of showrunners
were men, eighty two percent were white. How does your
program helping to address those types of issues or how
(25:55):
do you how do you hope to address those types
of issues in the future. It's really about like leveling
the playing field and when it comes to access, and
that's what I'm trying to provide with the program. Is
creating the access so that there can be more showrunners
of color, there can be more high level writers in
the writers room who are people of color. Mike Like,
(26:17):
I could totally see your program continuing to expand and
fill these spaces in a major way. But one thing
I'm thinking right now is that you also have an
individual career. You're working on your own writing and growth
and professional ambitions. So even though your mentorship program is
clearly rewarding and important, the burden of this kind of
work often falls on us as marginalized people to simultaneously
(26:40):
lift each other up while lifting ourselves. And that's a
lot of lifting, you know. I'm thinking about how a
couple of weeks ago, we talked about this with doctor
Joy Harden Bradford. She runs therapy for black girls, and
she talked about how part of showing up for her
community was also saying no from time to time and
making time for herself. So how do you strike the
(27:01):
balance between helping others and helping yourself? Ronald? You are
asking all the right questions. You're asking questions that I
think about on a daily basis, because right now, I mean,
in terms of the program, it's been like a one
man band. I have a producing partner. Her name is
Ashley Aaronson. She's fantastic and who's really helped me build
(27:25):
out the program. She's helped me build the site like
she has been fantastic. But the thing is, for the
most part, it's just been myself putting this program together.
And I had some time in between jobs to really
be there for my mentees. And I continue to be
(27:46):
there for my mentees. But am currently in a writer's
room now in the process of contract negotiations over something
that I'm extremely excited about and we'll share later down
the line. And I'm like pitching TV shows and features.
It's just there isn't a lot of time, so I
(28:06):
have had to be very conscious of how I allocate
my time so that I'm making time for what matters
to me. Let's look five to ten years down the line,
what does success look like for you, Mike personally, and
(28:29):
what does it look like for the program and for
black folks in writing in show business. If everything is
successful as you as you hope for it to be
more content about people of color who are experiencing, you know,
different things. We're not monolithic, you know, we live varied experiences.
(28:51):
Several shows can exist about you know, a group of
friends and there not be one girlfriends or one insecure,
or you know, or one living single. You know what
I mean equality in the sense of, like the higher ups,
what it looks like, What those numbers look like that
you mentioned earlier, like having more women of color running shows,
(29:14):
having more LGPTQ individuals of color running shows. Those things
are important, So it looks like true equality, and it
looks like a television slate that's not monolithic or not
only catering to one type of way of being black.
(29:37):
And what about you personally? Of course, I want the
program to continue to flourish. I want to be able
to expand the program to like colleges and high schools,
create a scholarship fund for young aspiring writers to have
access to tools that they need in order to get
to where they want to be. That can take someone
(30:01):
who's ten and has a dream, and you know, take
them all the way into the writer's room once they're ready.
So I w point out that I asked about your
personal goals and where you are five to ten years,
if you still talked about your program, which is that's
not that's crazy. It's almost like you're right. Um, I'm
I'm truly always thinking about it myself, myself creating shows,
(30:27):
of course. I mean I want, you know, to have
my own shows on air. I want to be able
to support other writers who have fantastic ideas who just
can't get a shot, you know, build out more programs
to help other writers get to where they'd like to be. Like,
I love it. I'm not bad at it. I mean,
(30:49):
that's it. You know. I just got here. Okay, I
just got here, and I'm grateful to be here. So
(31:11):
what can our listeners do to help I'm listening to
this and I'm like, man, I want to really support
I care about black representation in writer's room. Maybe I'm
somebody who loved Insecure and like, man, I'd love to
see more things like that on television. At the same time,
what can listeners do to help support this? Listen, there's
like over four hundred shows on air, So when we're
(31:32):
putting our shows on air and we're actually getting a shot,
watch that would that would really help To watch these
shows and even beyond watching the show, look them up
see ways in which you can like help support their
careers specifically with the program. You know, if anyone out
there would like to reach out who are interested in investing,
(31:55):
and you know, I like the idea of this program
existing and living on for many years, please feel free
to reach out to me and contact me. Because without visibility,
there's no change. Without visibility, there's no access. So it's
really about getting in front of as many eyes and
(32:16):
ears as possible to get your story out there to
be able to build that support. Do you have any
reading resources to help become a sharper writer, or anything
to become a stronger networker, anything that helped you persevere
in your journey. Oh my god, Podcasts, the Writer's Room,
the Screenwriter's Room. I don't know if you know Hilliard
(32:37):
guests like he Hilliard is fantastic. He has a fantastic podcast.
The WGA has a great podcast. One of the first
screenwriting books I ever got with a Screenwriter's Bible. I
suggest every writer have that though. I really listened to
like podcasts, podcast word my thing, Mike. This has been
(32:58):
an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for taking the
time to be with us, Ronald. Thank you so much
for having me. This was great. Thank you guys for
reaching out. Mike Oyo is a television writer and founder
of Black Boy Rights Black Girl Rights mentorship program. Solvable
is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Jah, booking
(33:19):
by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and
our executive producer is Mio Lobel. I'm Ronald Young Junior.
Thanks for listening.
Pushkin. This is Solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. We have
a really special episode for you today. You may recall
that back in September, I talked with TV writer Mike
Goyo about his work to support young black writers in Hollywood.
He mentioned then that his writing would be credited on
(00:37):
the upcoming and final season of Insecure. Well, as you
probably know, that season is well underway, so I asked
Mike to come back to Solvable and spill all his secrets,
or at least tell me more about what it was
like writing for Insecure. Here's our conversation, and stick with
us because at the end of this short chat, we'll
share our original episode about Mike's inspiring mentorship program called
(00:59):
the Black Boy Writes Black Girl Rights Mentorship Initiative. Here
we go. You know, I follow you on Instagram. I
saw your pictures. You do a big things with care
right now. Stopped you for the premiere party. I did
to myself. You look fantastic. I styled myself for for everything.
Um that look came together in less than twenty four hours. Honestly,
(01:24):
if I wasn't a writer, I would be in I
would be in fashion fair. Yeah, yeah, you got your
Instagram on lock Man like, no, thank you, thank you,
thank you. The premiere was great, and you know, this
is my first season writing on the show, but I've
been a fan of the show since it started, you know,
(01:44):
so being able to have that kind of like insider
experience to its history almost like just a museum, felt great.
It was awesome. So I know you've written for other
shows like you know, Jenny and Georgia. You know, writing
for a show like this where you're you're a fan
of the show from the beginning, does that change the
experience in the writer's room for you. It does. It does,
(02:07):
and emotionally in the sense of like, oh this is
my favorite show. Okay, I gotta do right by it.
I can't be out here pitching like crazy stuff things
that I wanted to see like season two, you know
what I mean. It's like, Noah, she should have went
with Daniel. Daniel like to tell you that, like the
(02:31):
I think the first day in the writer's room, I
was like, Okay, so this and this need to happen
because if you don't, like you know, I was like, okay,
my calm down. But yeah, I was, you know, incredibly
excited and to your point, it's different than Ginny and
Georgia only because Ginnie and Georgia is it was its
first season, so you originated stuff. Yeah, so come on originator. No.
(02:53):
But like the same kind of fanfare that people are
experiencing over Jenny and Georgia as z words I experienced
with Insecure. But when you're on a show and it's
like the inception of the show and you're starting with
the first season, then you and the other writers are
tasked with creating the world, with creating who these characters are.
(03:15):
So when you become a part of that process, it's
slightly harder to just be able to sit back as
a fan and you know, and of course we love
all the fans of the show and it it's become
an incredibly successful show and we love that. But it's
just a different experience, you know, Like with insecurests like
I didn't have to write it. I didn't have to
come up with these stories, and I could just enjoy
(03:38):
it as a fan and like pick my team. I
was like team Lawrence, team Nathan, Like who am I? Like?
Do you know what I mean? Yelvable podcast? All right,
I don't care. I didn't even ask anybody this is
a time podcast. You can tell Malcolm tell everybody's Lauren's
Time podcast. Come on alone time when I'm mad at
it and tell me Take me back forward a second,
(03:58):
take me through if you remember, and I'm sure you do.
What was your what was your first day working with
the team like? And I imagine was it was a
virtual were you in person? What was it like? It
was fantastic. What I'll say is I knew most of
the writers personally, and it was my first time working
with a lot of them professionally. So there's that kind
of like, Okay, Mike, don't be on here talking crazy
(04:21):
like you would having drinks drinks with this person, you know,
be professional, pitch beacup things like that. Say something smart
like you know what you're talking about. But it was
also different because it was my first virtual room because
remember we were all in the depths of quarantine and
(04:42):
that kind of like familial aspect of the writer's room.
You don't really get to build it as much on
Zoom Like it was very efficient, but that efficiency kind
of slightly stepped on some of the relationship building maybe,
but for the most part, like oh my god, the
(05:02):
room experience was fantastic. Wow. So did you ever get
to spend time on set and what was that like?
I did to get to spend time on set. I
love that you can't tell us everything, so I get it.
I appreciate that. So imagine you're gonna get me. I'm not.
(05:30):
I'm not, I'm not. So yeah. So you so you
had a good time? I imagine? Um, what was your
What was your favorite thing about about writing this season
or about helping out this season that you can share
talking about the larger themes of the show, and because
it's the final season, you're closing out these characters and
their experiences and you're wanting to kind of give them
their like full circle moment. Being able to discuss that
(05:55):
and having conversations around that was great because you you
get to assist in how these characters land emotionally in
the series. It's like, what are they learning? What is
coming up for them? What do we want the audience
to know as we finish out the series. One thing
that was really that we kind of landed on early
(06:17):
is that we wanted it to write like we were
getting a season six, so that we didn't feel the
pressure of, oh, we have to, like, you know, really
close out these characters in a huge way. Dada Insecure
has been about slightive life stories and also like what
it looks like if you were just you know, a
fly on the wall in this person's life, in this
(06:40):
particular section of this person's full life. So if that's
the case, then let's not concern ourselves with closing them
out in a way that feels finite, do you know
what I mean. It's not meant for you to feel like, oh, okay,
I'm never going to see that character again. It's meant
to feel like that character is living on in a
(07:03):
universe that you just don't get, you just aren't privy
to anymore. Yeah, that's all you kind of wanted to
feel like, Yeah, that's I kind of feel like that
when I watched my favorite shows on television. Now, you know,
when you look back to them over and over again,
it always feels good to just go back to that
episode and see that they're doing the same thing over
and over again, to timeloop and you could just go
(07:24):
visit them and see how this boding. You know, I
guess I like it with some of my shows get
revived and you get to see what they're doing. You're
going to update on them, But I feel like some
people take that too far. So I like what you're
saying to just consider them being in a universe somewhere
where I just I'm not privy to what they're doing.
And I think that's that's excellent ways to write. Do
you You know, with your with your foundation with black
(07:46):
boy Rights, black girl Rights, you have a lot of
advice for your mentees about you know, how to be
in the room and all that. Did you find yourself
using any of the advice that you have been giving
out as a mentor. I feel myself not using my
own advice. Okay, you know how I'm sitting there giving
them like page advice about like what to do. Yeah,
(08:08):
and I'm over here, like Mike, you're not even saying
what you said what you told them to do, so
you know what I mean? So I try to remember
that I am a member of the writing staff and
not not just like a fan anymore. So that kind
of like those those nerves that you might have about
(08:29):
feeling like, okay, is what are thing making sense? You know,
you quickly have to kind of dispel so that you
can be an effective communicator. Okay, So I'm gonna ask
you two questions that you probably can't answer, and that's okay,
what I want to ask of it. Hey, all right,
(08:50):
you can ask where there were there any particular lines
or anything that you wrote that we can listen for
coming up, coming up. In Nah, I can't tell you
that I care. There are a couple that I am
particularly proud of, and I have to like wait to
(09:10):
I have to remember if they even made the final cut.
But there are and I'm not saying anything. Okay, Well
we'll talk about it. We'll talk offline. Nobody's listening, right right.
Um by next question is, um, so you've done insecure now,
you know what I mean? And that's you know, that's
a pretty big feather in your cap. What do you
(09:31):
want to do next? I have been so blessed and
grateful to take on a few projects. I can't even
talk about them yet. That's the thing. I can't talk
about them that yet. They haven't been announced. Yeah, but
as soon as they are, Ronald, you know, I'm gonna
call you and be like, Yo, Ronald, what happened? This
(09:54):
is what I was talking about? What I was talking about?
So Mike. You know, I'm really glad that you took
the time to be here. I consider you a friend
to the show. You're the only guest that has returned,
well except for Malcolm, of course, but you're the only
gul You're the second that is that is Malcolm. Shout
out to Malcolm Gladwell. But we're glad to have you back.
Tell everybody how they can find you, and tell me
(10:16):
more about the work that you're doing with Black Boy
Rites and Black Girl Writes. Thank you. You can find
me on Twitter at black Boy Writes. You can find
me on Instagram also at black Boy Writes, but it's
a period in between each letter. Blackboyris and Blackgy Rites
is a mentorship initiative that I launched at the top
(10:36):
of twenty twenty one to help writers of color gain
access into the industry. You know, there are a lot
of talented writers out there that just need the access.
So please keep your eyes peeled for the twenty twenty
two class of mentees. I'm very proud of the program
and hope that it becomes like a mainstay in the Hollywood.
(11:00):
I hope it does too, man, I hope this is
the beginning of something very big for you and and
I'm really proud of the work that you're doing. I'm
really glad that you came back to the show, and
thanks for coming back. Thank you, thanks for having me.
Ronald now solvable listeners. Here's the episode we first published
back in September of twenty twenty one about Mike Goyle's
mentorship initiative Black Boy Rights, Black Girl Rights. This is solvable.
(11:28):
I'm Ronald Young Junior. We should be allowed to take
up space, not just allowed to take up space. We
should just be taking up space ourselves because we deserve it.
In recent years, calls for more diverse representation in Hollywood
and show business have grown louder and more frequent, whether
it's April Rain starting the hashtag oscar so white or
writer director actor Issa Ray using her large following to
(11:51):
be rooting for everybody black. There have been many public
calls for action around and criticism of the lack of
visibility for non white folks in Hollywood. Without visibility, there's
no change. Without visibility, there's no access. So it's really
about getting in front of as many eyes and ears
as possible to get your story out there and in
(12:13):
order to tell a story. You need to be in
the room where stories are written, specifically writers rooms. According
to a twenty seventeen report on representation in Hollywood and
in Television, of nearly four thousand writers, four point eight
percent of them were black, and over half of all
shows have zero black writers. Mike Goyo is one of
(12:34):
the very few who have made it to the inside.
We're in this space now. We have to build out
these programs for ourselves because if we don't build them out,
everything will remain the same. So we have to kind
of like take the initiative to do that. Goya's most
recent job was writing for a little show on HBO.
You might have heard me shout out on a previous
(12:56):
solvable episode. That show is called Insecure and Today. Goyo
is also the founder of a mentorship organization called Black
Boy Rites and Black Girl Rights. They help burgeoning writers
not only find their footing when entering a large white landscape,
but also offer support and a network as they continue
to grow their careers in Hollywood. The lack of creatives
(13:16):
of color in positions of power in Hollywood is solvable.
I met Etha early twenty fifteen, and like she had
a mixer at her production company for Creatives of Color,
and I went to that mixer, met her for all
of two minutes. But Etha, I mean I credit her
(13:38):
to helping me in my career. She has always helped
up and coming creatives. And I met several people there
that became my people, that became my tribe of people.
She was like, you know, look to the people in
the room to grow with, and that's exactly what I did,
you know, and that is my group chat Like that
is those are my people. We all came up at
(13:58):
the same time, we all got staffed around the same time,
we all continue to rise around the same time, and
she really helped make that happen. So it's about how
are all these creatives that are out here creative, the
colors that are coming up in the business, how they're
helping others come up. And I want to be able
to do the same thing. Originally, you weren't going to
(14:24):
be a writer, So tell me what your aspirations were
or what your parents wanted you to be originally. You
know what, I love that last minute correction there because
it really was my parents. I was like, my aspirations,
I don't think I knew what they were until my
parents told me what they were. No. Yeah, I was,
(14:46):
you know, being groomed to be a doctor by my parents,
you know, from a young age. That's the road I
went down. I didn't know anything else. But once I
got to college and I started taking you know, theater
classes and screenwriting classes, I was like, oh wow, I
really enjoy this. I also came across you know, organic stream,
(15:09):
was like, oh, okay, this is this is the enemy.
Definitely not getting past this level. You're a child of
Haitian immigrants, I am. The earthquake in Haiti in twenty ten,
it bore some influence on making the switch from becoming
a doctor to being fully focused on writing. Can you
(15:30):
talk a little bit about that, Ronald this his research. Basically,
what happened was my both my parents and my sister
were in Haiti during the earthquake, so we couldn't have
reached them for three days, so we were thinking the
worst at the time. My little brother, who's he's twelve
years younger than me, he was in my care at
the time, so I'm also having to think of like,
(15:52):
oh my god, like okay, my parents can't locate them.
I'm like, you know, trying to put aside thoughts about
like the idea of raising my little brother alone. So
after discovering they were okay and everything was fine, and
you know, they eventually flew back to the States. I
really had an aha moment of like, just a life
(16:14):
is too short to live for other people, and I
was really kind of living for everyone else but myself.
I was living for my parents. It just wasn't working
for me. I was really kind of like honestly depressed.
That's when I decided to change my major to the
theater with a concentration in creative writing. And then I
(16:35):
also came out in the same year to my parents too,
so that was that was what was that like for them?
I mean it was man when I when I changed
career path, my mother cried, was like, I can't believe
you're doing this. Oh you were, you know, on such
a good path. Now you're writing. I don't even know
(16:56):
what that is, what does that even mean? And then
my dad was like, it's gonna be all right. Just
let him fly, like, let him do what he wants
to do. He was very supportive in that way. And
then I was, oh, fantastic. And then later that year
when I came out, like my dad was crying and
my mom was like, let him do what he wants,
like you said, let him be free. I love that.
(17:19):
So yeah, that was really a pivotal year for me,
not just in my career what would become my career,
but in my life. You know, your story really resonates
with me because I was in it for most of
my adult life. I'm still fairly due to this job,
so I I appreciate that. So Viking, that adjustment was
(17:40):
something that it was easy to wrap my head around
because it was my dream job. But there were some
difficulties in terms of switching industries and learning the industry
and learning the people around me. My granted, I don't
think you did a career switch, but even starting in
this career in this world, tell me what that world
was like, especially for you a black man, Like, what
was that like? Interacting with all these folks and even
(18:00):
though it is your dream job, what was that like?
After graduating college, I knew that I wanted to Purdue Television.
I knew I want to move to LA So I
was making plans to move to LA. While making those plans,
I was working as a production assistant in Boston. You know,
I worked on the Equalizer as a production assistant with
(18:20):
Denzel Washington. I worked on American Idol. I worked on
a few other reality TV shows. But when I was
working on American Idol, who was in Boston for their
Boston auditions, I happened to mention a production like, Hey,
I'm moving to LA in a month, and I'm like, okay, great.
Once he moved to La, come work with us, and
I was like, oh, say no. More So, once I moved,
(18:42):
I had a job which was which was great. But
to your question, like when I got here, I felt like, Okay,
this is the opportunity I was asking the universe for.
So I need to kind of really focus and make
some connections, start networking. Part of the my success has
(19:06):
been building my network. And what I came to realize
very quickly that my network will dictate my net worth
in this business, and it's really about who you know
as well as your talent. Some have been able to
succeed with you know without both, but as if you're
(19:28):
a person of color, you will most likely you will
need both. It's far and being a person of color
in this industry trying to come up and being able
to create some type of like sustainable pathway program for
other writers, or some type of like access that stays
(19:49):
open for us is really important. So much of Hollywood
is about who you know across all areas of work.
Researchers have found that people in positions of power demonstrate
unconscious bias. That's when we hire people who look like
us or have a similar background or path the one
we follow. Some people have a conscious bias too, of course,
(20:11):
which leads to the same result. Doors shut to people
of color in TV and film. The many white writers
making it bring on other white writers, who in turn
bring on more white writers. Only seven of every twenty
writers is currently a person of color. Discrimination is perpetuated,
(20:41):
Mike with your organization, black boy writes, black Girl writes,
Are you seeking to create work and opportunities to overlooked
folks in writing or is it more that you're trying
to teach them about writing? Or is it both? It's
really both. Once you're in the program, some of the
features include writer round tables with other writers in the
business who are established, and we try to invite as
(21:05):
many people that feel like relay the to our mentees,
imparting you know, tips about writing and also just like
writer's room etiquette and things like that, like things you
would normally you would not know unless you were in
a writer's room. But it is also about providing access.
You know, these conversations that we're having with these you know,
(21:28):
established writers or like intimate conversations where they get to
be free to ask any type of question they'd like
to ask. They have some face time with the writers,
They get the writers contact information so that they can
contact them themselves and build like a personal their own
like genuine personal relationship with that person. I try to
provide them with access to securing general meetings with executives.
(21:54):
It's really about creating a sense of visibility for them
so that you can get the access that you need. Also,
once the program is over, we have an alumni system
where we're not going to let you just go off
on your own and expect you to fly. Yeah, it's
like it's like it's that thing of like when a
(22:15):
mother bird like watches there baby fly off the branch.
They at least look down to make sure that they
made it. Like that they're okay. So as soon as
like the program's over and it's really just a year program.
The intention is to keep up with all our alumni
and make sure that they are okay, make sure they've
(22:35):
made it, make sure that they still have what they need.
So Mike, like you, you give them a lot, Like
that's a lot for a person to get, like, especially
starting off as a writer. I imagine that this has
to be connected to something that you felt was lacking
as you were coming up in the program, Like, Man,
I wish it I had would have had this. I
wonder if you have any stories or anything that are
(22:57):
attached to what you did not have a kind of
what you had to fight for an advocate for yourself
growing up as a young black writer in the game.
You know what the funny thing is, Ronald, It's it's
because of what I had that I'm doing what I'm doing.
Do you know what I mean? It's of people that
came up before me who gave me a helping hand,
(23:20):
do you know what I mean? And who like and
pulled me up. Yes, I credit my career to hard
work and to ambition, right, but I also credited to
people who have been mentors of mine and who have
kind of like helped me in my career, all I
want to do is be able to like really pay
(23:41):
that back, pay that forward. I just went ahead with
that idea and started pursuing it. Mike Goyle was hardworking
and fortunate. He was able to land a job when
he first moved to LA He was able to mingle
with successful black writers, and he could afford to take
the time to show up in the places where they
(24:02):
were and offered to take them out for coffee or drinks. Persistence, networking,
playing the game. It all takes time and effort. Mike,
how do you feel about the necessity of a POC
community having to build our own networks in order to
even stand a chance. That isn't necessarily the case for
(24:26):
white folks, or it might be a little more naturally
built in for white folks than it is for black
folks who have to build our own network. I think
you hit it right on the head and the last
sentence there, it's like it's just they have been able
to build it out in a way that we have
not had the opportunity to, or when we have had
the opportunity to, you know, Telsa, it getting burned down.
(24:51):
So I think that right, I'm just saying we're getting real.
I'm just saying, but yeah, it's it's it's it's it's
not as natural for us, and that's why we have
to continue to work at it. But it's this thing
of like we're in this space now where we have
(25:14):
to build out these programs for ourselves because if we
don't build them out, everything will remain the same. So
we have to kind of like take the initiative to
do that. Do we have allies who want to help us, absolutely,
but we still have to put ourselves in that space
of building that out for ourselves. So I think some
(25:35):
of the stats that come to Hollywood and writing and
show business generally skew largely white. I mean a couple
years ago we had that controversy of hashtag oscars so white,
And in twenty nineteen twenty twenty, seventy percent of showrunners
were men, eighty two percent were white. How does your
program helping to address those types of issues or how
(25:55):
do you how do you hope to address those types
of issues in the future. It's really about like leveling
the playing field and when it comes to access, and
that's what I'm trying to provide with the program. Is
creating the access so that there can be more showrunners
of color, there can be more high level writers in
the writers room who are people of color. Mike Like,
(26:17):
I could totally see your program continuing to expand and
fill these spaces in a major way. But one thing
I'm thinking right now is that you also have an
individual career. You're working on your own writing and growth
and professional ambitions. So even though your mentorship program is
clearly rewarding and important, the burden of this kind of
work often falls on us as marginalized people to simultaneously
(26:40):
lift each other up while lifting ourselves. And that's a
lot of lifting, you know. I'm thinking about how a
couple of weeks ago, we talked about this with doctor
Joy Harden Bradford. She runs therapy for black girls, and
she talked about how part of showing up for her
community was also saying no from time to time and
making time for herself. So how do you strike the
(27:01):
balance between helping others and helping yourself? Ronald? You are
asking all the right questions. You're asking questions that I
think about on a daily basis, because right now, I mean,
in terms of the program, it's been like a one
man band. I have a producing partner. Her name is
Ashley Aaronson. She's fantastic and who's really helped me build
(27:25):
out the program. She's helped me build the site like
she has been fantastic. But the thing is, for the
most part, it's just been myself putting this program together.
And I had some time in between jobs to really
be there for my mentees. And I continue to be
(27:46):
there for my mentees. But am currently in a writer's
room now in the process of contract negotiations over something
that I'm extremely excited about and we'll share later down
the line. And I'm like pitching TV shows and features.
It's just there isn't a lot of time, so I
(28:06):
have had to be very conscious of how I allocate
my time so that I'm making time for what matters
to me. Let's look five to ten years down the line,
what does success look like for you, Mike personally, and
(28:29):
what does it look like for the program and for
black folks in writing in show business. If everything is
successful as you as you hope for it to be
more content about people of color who are experiencing, you know,
different things. We're not monolithic, you know, we live varied experiences.
(28:51):
Several shows can exist about you know, a group of
friends and there not be one girlfriends or one insecure,
or you know, or one living single. You know what
I mean equality in the sense of, like the higher ups,
what it looks like, What those numbers look like that
you mentioned earlier, like having more women of color running shows,
(29:14):
having more LGPTQ individuals of color running shows. Those things
are important, So it looks like true equality, and it
looks like a television slate that's not monolithic or not
only catering to one type of way of being black.
(29:37):
And what about you personally? Of course, I want the
program to continue to flourish. I want to be able
to expand the program to like colleges and high schools,
create a scholarship fund for young aspiring writers to have
access to tools that they need in order to get
to where they want to be. That can take someone
(30:01):
who's ten and has a dream, and you know, take
them all the way into the writer's room once they're ready.
So I w point out that I asked about your
personal goals and where you are five to ten years,
if you still talked about your program, which is that's
not that's crazy. It's almost like you're right. Um, I'm
I'm truly always thinking about it myself, myself creating shows,
(30:27):
of course. I mean I want, you know, to have
my own shows on air. I want to be able
to support other writers who have fantastic ideas who just
can't get a shot, you know, build out more programs
to help other writers get to where they'd like to be. Like,
I love it. I'm not bad at it. I mean,
(30:49):
that's it. You know. I just got here. Okay, I
just got here, and I'm grateful to be here. So
(31:11):
what can our listeners do to help I'm listening to
this and I'm like, man, I want to really support
I care about black representation in writer's room. Maybe I'm
somebody who loved Insecure and like, man, I'd love to
see more things like that on television. At the same time,
what can listeners do to help support this? Listen, there's
like over four hundred shows on air, So when we're
(31:32):
putting our shows on air and we're actually getting a shot,
watch that would that would really help To watch these
shows and even beyond watching the show, look them up
see ways in which you can like help support their
careers specifically with the program. You know, if anyone out
there would like to reach out who are interested in investing,
(31:55):
and you know, I like the idea of this program
existing and living on for many years, please feel free
to reach out to me and contact me. Because without visibility,
there's no change. Without visibility, there's no access. So it's
really about getting in front of as many eyes and
(32:16):
ears as possible to get your story out there to
be able to build that support. Do you have any
reading resources to help become a sharper writer, or anything
to become a stronger networker, anything that helped you persevere
in your journey. Oh my god, Podcasts, the Writer's Room,
the Screenwriter's Room. I don't know if you know Hilliard
(32:37):
guests like he Hilliard is fantastic. He has a fantastic podcast.
The WGA has a great podcast. One of the first
screenwriting books I ever got with a Screenwriter's Bible. I
suggest every writer have that though. I really listened to
like podcasts, podcast word my thing, Mike. This has been
(32:58):
an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for taking the
time to be with us, Ronald. Thank you so much
for having me. This was great. Thank you guys for
reaching out. Mike Oyo is a television writer and founder
of Black Boy Rights Black Girl Rights mentorship program. Solvable
is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Jah, booking
(33:19):
by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and
our executive producer is Mio Lobel. I'm Ronald Young Junior.
Thanks for listening.
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