March 9, 2022 • 24 mins
Sterlin Harjo strives to tell the stories of Native and Indigenous people by positioning beauty and triumphs alongside honest frailty and shortcomings. Harjo is an award-winning film maker and he’s the creator and show runner of the TV show Reservations Dogs.
Here are some links to organizations and works he recommends in this episode:
Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Zha, booking by Lisa Dunn, editorial support for Keishel Williams. The Managing Producer is Sachar Mathias and the Executive Producer is Mia Lobel.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Growing up,
there was not a single positive reference that I remember
in media or popular culture or anything like. I grew
(00:35):
up with Peter Pan and like the whole like what
makes the Red Man Red? And then we got Disney Spokeahonis,
which everyone thought was a sort of good depiction of natives,
and it did make some limited strides, But then that
meant that everyone would just when I said I was Native,
would like sing Colors of the Wind to me. You
might remember this conversation I had in twenty twenty one
(00:56):
with doctor Adrian Keane, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation,
scholar and author of Notable Native People. We were talking
about the erasiar and invisibility of Indigenous people. We agreed
that there was a disconnect between the way Natives are
portrayed on film and television and the realities of Native
and Indigenous life. What I love about movies and cinemas
(01:16):
that like, you can create a world, and if you
do it right, an audience will go along with you,
and they go into your world that you've created, and
they give themselves over to that. And already had a
leg up because the world I come from is so unknown.
That's filmmaker Sterlin Harjoe, a citizen of the Seminal Nation
of Oklahoma. He's the creator and showrunner of Reservation Dogs.
(01:40):
It's an FX series about a group of Native American
teenagers coming of age on a reservation in Oklahoma. I mean,
like we only talk about the warriors and the heroes
and stuff. It was like, you know, what about the
ones that didn't do shit or they were scared, like
the diet because their horse hit a gopher hole. You know,
like like what about them? You know, like that's also
(02:02):
a part of us. Harjo's other work, including award winning
feature films and documentaries, has also largely focused on Native
of history, identity, and culture. In Reservation Dogs, he strives
to portray fully realized Indigenous books in America, a departure
from the representation that some of us may be all
too familiar with. My name is Charlin Harjoe. I am filmmaker, creator,
(02:26):
showrunner of Reservation Dogs, and I feel that representing the
humanity of Native people is a solvable problem. I think
the work that you're doing is very tangible when it
comes to stopping the erasure of a culture. Can you
talk a little bit about how your work is encouraging
that visibility. We just tell the truth, you show the good,
(02:50):
you show the bad, because because that's what's missing is
we haven't been seen as human and humans are good
and bad, and we have to show those sides and
also tell a good story first, and then you're gonna
get the activism or the real stuff that we're going for.
Right Like, as long as I a good story, like
that's the trojan horse, right Like, you tell the good
(03:12):
story and you get in there. I feel like I
know how to bring us into the rest of the world.
I was so proud to be able to do it
because I feel like I had known how to do
I feel like I know how to do it, you know,
because you know how it is, like like as soon
as you're an underrepresented person gets to tell their story,
they don't want to share the darkness, they don't want
(03:33):
to share the blemishes. They only want us to look perfect.
They only want us us to be you know, everything,
to look amazing and like, you know, like like there's
no issues here, like because like it's it's the pendulum swinging,
you know. I mean, like one of the best things
about this show is the feedback I've gotten from the community,
people from all over indigenous communities writing me and saying, men,
(03:54):
like my kids are finally feel like they're seeing something
that represents them. Like I mean, my dad said the
other day, it was like you've given them an identity again,
Like we can be proud. And part of that being proud,
I think is just showing us as flawed, beautiful human
beings and showing that we face death and that sometimes
(04:17):
we can't handle life and sometimes we sometimes we are upset,
and sometimes we're not good people, and sometimes we're really good,
you know, and just showing that, letting people kind of
relax a little bit and take a breath, and that
we don't have to be these historical figures that that
fought and lost or won for our land and like
and it was just kind of shaking that off and
(04:39):
like a good blues song, you know, it's like what
is the how do you strip it down to what
it is? You know, It's like, yeah, without all the
fancy stuff, like what are we? We're human, you know,
and like you try to tell that the truth and
the and the and the and the light and the
darkness with that, and I think that that's what makes
a difference, and that's what gets people to identify with it,
and watching the show, I felt that I felt, you know,
watching a show like yours, watching a show like Rami Atlanta.
(05:02):
I feel like there's other shows where they're just showing
humans of cultures that have been have been in America
and a part of America for a long time, but
showing them as human. But I think one of the
most interesting ways that you did in a Reservation Dogs
was that you have a bear. One of the main characters,
Jeans T Shirt, teenage boy. He is talking to one
of his ancestors, his grandfather uncle cousin, who explicitly states
(05:26):
that he's not one of the awesome ones. But I
fought bravely. Well. I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't
even get into the fight itself, but came over that
hill real real good like. But then the damn horse
hit a gopher hole, fucking rolled over and squashed me.
I died there. He was just the guy who who
died on his horse after horse fell into a hole.
(05:48):
I thought, what's hilarious was all of that? The inspiration
behind giving Bear this very regular ancestor to guide him totally.
I mean, like we only talked about the warriors and
the heroes and stuff. I was like, you know, what
about the ones that didn't do shit or they were
scared die because their horse hit a gopher hole? Like
(06:09):
like what about them? Yeah, Like that's also a part
of us. And I think one thing that's important about
that character. I'm glad you brought it up is what
I learned because we had a comedy group Dallas Goals,
who plays Spirit, We had a comedy We have a
comedy group and we would travel around and we really
learned like what works for non native audiences for native
humor and what doesn't specifically wide audiences. You know what
(06:31):
I'm saying, um like because you gotta almost give them
permission to laugh when it's Native stuff because they want
to be like so like oh I find the same
thing with black humor, but continue exactly right, like you
gotta you gotta like oh like like oh I don't
want to laugh, like you know, you had to give
them permission a laugh. And it was it was a
taking the stereotype that like if I were to say,
(06:53):
like like draw me a Native American, like they wouldn't
draw bearer, they would draw spirit. You know. It's a
delicate thing, like trying to get people to laugh at
things that they're used to not laughing with or about
or anything, you know. So I think that that character
specifically was kind of works as that mechanism. I guess.
Tell me a little bit about how you got into film.
(07:16):
You know. I got into college and I was at
the University of Oklahoma, and I took an intro to
film and video studies with this Hungarian professor named Misha Nadelkovich,
and his like love for cinema was so contagious. And
it was when I discovered that it was a language
was when I was pumped, and like that's when I
(07:37):
really got into it. It was like, okay, I like
when I realized it wasn't just pointing a camera towards something,
it was literally like telling stories with the camera and
using cameras and shots too, and music and everything all
the senses to tell a story. I just really, I
don't know, I fell in love and I didn't look back.
(07:59):
I was like, I have to do this, you know,
And and it's sort of that sort of coincided with
me discovering that I was a pretty good writer. I
think I was always a good storyteller. I just was
not confident in writing. But it was in college that
I discovered that I could, you know, with a little work,
I could write. College is the time that we all
become a lot more self aware. I think that was
(08:20):
identified most with my blackness when I got to college
and I began to kind of express it and everything
that I did, you know, whether it was playing music,
talking to friends, whatever, it was like I had to
express my blackness. As you were becoming more creative and
writing and enjoying telling stories, did you find yourself having
that same level of expressiveness when it comes to your
(08:42):
indigenous heritage. Yeah, I mean, like it was there's two things.
I mean, like, on one hand, like I'd kind of
grown up in this community and I was hungry for
things like punk rock and indie rock, and like I
was wanting to express myself through art, and I was
discovering artists and cinnamon and all this stuff that had
nothing to do with my heritage or background, and I
(09:05):
really just kind of dove into all of that. But,
like you said, a couple of years of that though,
when I started applying myself and writing and wanting to
be a filmmaker. Then I was like, oh, but this
is the thing that's unique about me. And then and
then it was like, oh, now, then I like discovered
(09:25):
rediscovered who I was and everything kind of came from
that lens after that, and I realized that, you know,
a lot of people don't have the leg up that
I had, Like I have this like I mean what
I love about movies and cinemas that like, you can
create a world and if you do it right, an
audience will go along with you and they go into
(09:47):
your world that you've created and they give themselves over
to that. And already had a leg up because the
world I come from is so unknown that it was
a little easier. I felt like to bring people into
this world that they didn't know, you know. So after that,
I'm very similar to you. Everything kind of filtered through
that lens. When you're making discoveries about new things that
(10:11):
you love that weren't necessarily a part of your culture
growing up, for instance, punk rock, but there are things
that you're introduced to that you love. As you become
more in touch with your culture, do you look for
the connections between the thing that you love and your culture.
Oh yeah, for sure. And you know I like hip hop,
I like punk rock, I like rebellious music, and I
(10:34):
think that Indigenous people, you know, we've always been in
a bit of a rebellion. It's like, you know, it's
like there was always something to fight for to this day,
and so I connect to that. And you know, the
show is filled with punk rock and indie rock and
hip hop, and like the opening as you know, I
Want to Be Your Dog by the Stooges, and it's like,
(10:56):
you know, one of my favorite things, definding ways to
bring all of that back into my community, because I
mean it's there anyway, but it's like, how do I
show that and express it? You know, I did not
know that that was That song was by the band
Red Bull. Yeah, come and Get Your Love, incredibly popular song. Yeah, yes,
(11:23):
it was on I remember as they're singing it, I'm like,
this is from the Guardians of the Galaxy. What significance
does have here? And then at the end when you
show the band playing it, I'm like, oh my goodness,
this is all of those happy little connections. I imagine
that that inspires, inspires you to do more work to
say like see there, look at these connections, understand how
it all comes together. Oh yeah, I mean that was
(11:43):
one of my favorite things. It's like kind of reclaiming
red Bone. You know, it's like the world knows who
they are, but they don't know where they come from
and who they really are. And it was like, I
want to show that in this unique way as this
in this episode. A lot of times native people are shown,
we're only shown in the eighteen hundreds most of the time,
you know, so trying to show us in a contemporary
(12:05):
light and how you know, we're just as influenced by
all these things pop culture like everyone is, you know,
like from hip hop to movies to um to clothing,
I mean like style, you know, we're so one of
our strengths is that we were able to adapt. Like
(12:25):
for instance, in my community, UM, we have songs that
are really important and you'll you hear them being sung
at a funeral scene in the show, and they are hymns.
(12:52):
And those hymns were there are a mix of like
the style of singing was kind of brought here by
Scottish missionaries and it was called line singing. Well, then
you had free to African slaves. Next to that, there
were also a part of our tribe with the Seminal nation,
but also lived in those in the same area in
(13:12):
the southeast. And you know, all this style of singing
emerges and you hear it Enslave spiritual as you also
hear in these Muscogee Creek and Seminal hymns, and it's
a style of singing that they call it line singing,
and you know, it's a way of worshiping. It's a
way of kind of singing prayer, you know, and all
of those cultures kind of have a mix of that.
And I think that that's a beautiful thing. Like that's
(13:35):
what I love celebrating that, right, Like I love talking
about how our culture is intersect I think part of
our survival has been adapting, you know. I think the
same thing for you know, Black people in this country.
It's like part of survival is absorbing things and culture
and claiming it for ourselves, you know, and like as
or just like presenting it in a new way, you know.
And I think that's something beautiful about the intersection of
(13:58):
cultures us. It's about survival. I think I am I
am a Black Christian. I've been in the church my
whole life. My father's an assistant pastor. Like, I'm heavily
involved in the church. And I do remember that funeral
scene where they were singing, doing the line singing. I
was struck by that part. I was like, this is very,
very familiar. And I think that's one thing about the
(14:19):
show Reservation Dogs is that it's it's very familiar. As
soon as it comes on and you realize that the
main characters are are basically on a quest to get
out of their little small town. I was like, oh, oh, yeah,
this is familiar, Like I know this story. Yeah, everybody
can relate to that, right, yeah, And I like that
you use that in order to make it familiar. But
(14:39):
then you you slowly start introducing concepts that I didn't
know about, which is an episode two. You immediately start
talking about Indian Health Services and subtly making these little
statements about it throughout What are you here for? Come
to a fight bosting my nose? I got some good ones,
and now tell your mom, no, I didn't. You shouldn't
(15:04):
either patient doctor protocol or whatever it's called. Tell me
a little bit about what your intentions were by teasing
out the lessons that that me is not non indigenous
person would learn from watching a show like this. We
all know what bad health care is, right, Like, my
whole goal is to be very specific show this culture,
(15:30):
be very specific about the nuance and the differences and
the little things that details that make it real. But
it all has an undercurrent of your universality. And I
think that those two, the combination of those two things
are what make people want to come back and watch
the show, because I think when we're like young and
(15:50):
we're activists and we're you know, in our early twenties,
we want to yell, you know, we want like a
bullhorn to yell. But you realize people don't listen when
you yell, and if you want people to hear, you
have to find the right way to deliver it to them,
like making a podcast, right, making a podcast, making a show,
(16:12):
but also making a balance of like where I don't
feel like I'm you don't feel like you're you're getting
a lecture, You're just getting little tastes of lessons of
healthcare disparities in America and Indigenous communities through a really
funny episode that all takes place at the Indian Clinic,
you know, where Bobby Lee is a doctor and like
(16:34):
all of these things. Yeah, So I think it's like
something that I've been this a needle I've been trying
to threat through from a whole career. Most people that
have an opportunity, especially when it comes to underserved communities
and minority groups that are underrepresented, especially in how in
TV and film, you don't necessarily know if you're going
to get another chance at this, So you kind of
just have to, you know, set your path straight and
(16:54):
whatever happens happens. But you guys get a season two,
Do you have a plan for us to have a
long term stay with reservation dogs or oh yeah, yeah.
My friend Taikytt helped open the door for me and
then he was like all right, you know, there you go.
And I was like I have to swing for the fences,
like I'm gonna not doubt myself. You know, we all
(17:17):
have that in our heads where where that imposter syndrome
like should I be here? Like am I supposed to
be here? Like do I deserve this? I mean, you
know that's something I've always dealt with and you know,
and I've always as a as a Native person minority.
I've always fought any sort of I don't hand me
anything like, and I've never gotten manned at something that
(17:40):
I felt was racist. I mean, I've been told so
many times like this is too native, we can't fund this,
you know, like I don't like Native films, don't sell
or anything. I never let that get me, man, it
just fueled me. I almost wanted the hardest path because
it's in. It was in my head from a young age.
My mom, I remember, we would get this. My tribe
would give us a clothing voucher before school started, two
(18:03):
hundred and fifty bucks to go to the mall and
get yourself some clothing. And because it's tribal money, it's
not untaxable. But you know, the people at Dillards weren't
used to that, and my mom would just battle them
and be like, no, it's non taxable. And if they
made it sound like it was a handout anyway, my
mom would be like, this is not a handout. This
is inheritance from our trial, you know. And so I
(18:26):
always almost like subconsciously one of the harder, like like, yeah,
be racist, Like I hope you don't understand what Native
stories are because someday I'm gonna show you, you know.
And I made all low budget films until this point.
I mean, like you could have only made two episodes
of Reservation Dogs with the budget of most of my
feature films, you know. So when I got here, I
(18:46):
was like, all right, I fought to be here. I
got nothing to lose. I'm gonna swing for the fences
and see what happens. And I never doubted myself and
I just went for it. And I think that that
was key to having a successful show because I wasn't
second guessing myself. I wasn't editing myself. I was just
going for it. With the success that you're having with
(19:14):
the show, how do you consider opening the door for
other Native creators that maybe want to come after you?
Do you have a plan for to have Do you
feel a responsibility to do that right? And if so,
plan for that? I mean definitely. I mean, like I
don't have the show without Taykott, you know, like like
um him helping a friend down, and I've done the same.
I mean, like every writer on the show, they're all Indigenous,
(19:37):
and they're all friends. All of the directors were friends
of mine that I wanted to give you know, their
first TV shot or and one of them a directs
TV already, but two others like it was their first
time directing TV. UM doing the same thing for the
next season. UM. And then also I have no overall
deal at ects now and part of that is me
bringing okay, bringing in other folks. Yeah, so like that's honestly,
(20:01):
like I think my favorite thing about what's happened is
like I now get to help people with their projects.
And because I mean, for me, like how I always
made my films and also how I made Reservation Dogs
was it was not like a top down thing, like
I don't like the hierarchy of Hollywood and how they
usually do it. Like for me, it's just like you
(20:21):
can't say that old Mike Sterling getting tracked. But like
you know, I love the community aspect of it, Like
I love like just how Reservation Dogs is kind of
about a community. That's how I like making this stuff.
So with being with bringing in a lot more and
working with other Native creators, you know, we're seeing kind
(20:41):
of like an inflection point right now where the Native
community is receiving a lot of artistic attention. These stories
and perspectives have always been important, but what do you
think makes them more important to tell in this moment.
Like with African American cinema and TV, you know, you
had these moments like Boys in the Hood and things
(21:01):
like that where it's like you're reflecting on your communities.
I mean, like one of my biggest influences on the
show was was Friday. Oh that's a classic ice cube
Chris Tucker, nineteen ninety five. I love that movie. By
all accounts, that neighborhood is supposed to be the ghetto
and scary and dangerous, but it's you know, in Friday,
(21:22):
it's like funny, Like it's not thriving, but it's like
a beautiful you know, it's a celebration. And there might
be one house that's like an asshole lives in, but
then the next one was like manicured and they're funny
and whatever. You know, It's like, that's what I want
to do. Like literally, whenever I was designing the kind
of the neighborhood of the of the reservation where they live,
we looked at Friday, and we use more pastel colors
(21:45):
and painted the houses and you know, like I think
people's first inclination when I think of reservation is to
make everything trashy, you know, because that's what we've seen
in the documentaries. I was like, no, Like there might
be one house that has like a card in the
yard or whatever, but then the neighbor's house is going
to be manicured and there's gonna be flowers and stuff,
you know, Like that's that's we're people, you know, We're
(22:06):
in this moment that I see that I saw. I
think with African American cinema, like Friday and all of
that were like you had boys in the hood, You're
talking about problems within our community and everything. And then
and then you move into Friday and it's like, oh,
but this is a celebration. But also we're still talking
about like our own issues, you know, like our own
issues in our community, and we're talking about suicide and
our own issues that we're facing. And it's not about
(22:28):
how do white people save us, It's about how do
we handle these problems ourselves? Like how do we address them?
What is unique about the way that we address them?
And so I see us in this infancy in our
storytelling and where we're at and where we can go
is limitless from every angle. If our listeners want to
(22:50):
get involved in help seeing more visibility within Native American
arts and film communities, what can they do. Illuminative is
a really good organization that kind of covers everything from
education to entertainment to art. I mean like they really
cover a lot. And I think that that is My
friend Crystal elcoh Hawk runs that and I think that
(23:13):
I don't know that they're just growing and they're building,
and they've really done so much in helping us be
visible and also celebrating what's happening in Indian country. You know,
follow him on Instagram Illuminative and they really give you
a good broad sense of where you can go and
who's all involved in the community. Thank you so much
(23:34):
for being with the Sterlings. Has been incredible. Thank you. Sterlin.
Hard Joe is the filmmaker, creator, and showrunner of Reservation Dogs,
and he's directed three future films, including Four Sheets to
the Wind, Barking Water, and Mecco, and two documentaries This
May Be the Last Time and Love and Fury. Season
(23:57):
two of Reservation Dogs is coming later in twenty twenty two.
You can find a link to his work and also
Illuminative in our show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank,
Research by David Jack, book by Lisa Dunn. Editorial support
from Keishell Williams. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and
our Executive producer is mio Lebelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior.
(24:20):
Thanks for listening.
Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Growing up,
there was not a single positive reference that I remember
in media or popular culture or anything like. I grew
(00:35):
up with Peter Pan and like the whole like what
makes the Red Man Red? And then we got Disney Spokeahonis,
which everyone thought was a sort of good depiction of natives,
and it did make some limited strides, But then that
meant that everyone would just when I said I was Native,
would like sing Colors of the Wind to me. You
might remember this conversation I had in twenty twenty one
(00:56):
with doctor Adrian Keane, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation,
scholar and author of Notable Native People. We were talking
about the erasiar and invisibility of Indigenous people. We agreed
that there was a disconnect between the way Natives are
portrayed on film and television and the realities of Native
and Indigenous life. What I love about movies and cinemas
(01:16):
that like, you can create a world, and if you
do it right, an audience will go along with you,
and they go into your world that you've created, and
they give themselves over to that. And already had a
leg up because the world I come from is so unknown.
That's filmmaker Sterlin Harjoe, a citizen of the Seminal Nation
of Oklahoma. He's the creator and showrunner of Reservation Dogs.
(01:40):
It's an FX series about a group of Native American
teenagers coming of age on a reservation in Oklahoma. I mean,
like we only talk about the warriors and the heroes
and stuff. It was like, you know, what about the
ones that didn't do shit or they were scared, like
the diet because their horse hit a gopher hole. You know,
like like what about them? You know, like that's also
(02:02):
a part of us. Harjo's other work, including award winning
feature films and documentaries, has also largely focused on Native
of history, identity, and culture. In Reservation Dogs, he strives
to portray fully realized Indigenous books in America, a departure
from the representation that some of us may be all
too familiar with. My name is Charlin Harjoe. I am filmmaker, creator,
(02:26):
showrunner of Reservation Dogs, and I feel that representing the
humanity of Native people is a solvable problem. I think
the work that you're doing is very tangible when it
comes to stopping the erasure of a culture. Can you
talk a little bit about how your work is encouraging
that visibility. We just tell the truth, you show the good,
(02:50):
you show the bad, because because that's what's missing is
we haven't been seen as human and humans are good
and bad, and we have to show those sides and
also tell a good story first, and then you're gonna
get the activism or the real stuff that we're going for.
Right Like, as long as I a good story, like
that's the trojan horse, right Like, you tell the good
(03:12):
story and you get in there. I feel like I
know how to bring us into the rest of the world.
I was so proud to be able to do it
because I feel like I had known how to do
I feel like I know how to do it, you know,
because you know how it is, like like as soon
as you're an underrepresented person gets to tell their story,
they don't want to share the darkness, they don't want
(03:33):
to share the blemishes. They only want us to look perfect.
They only want us us to be you know, everything,
to look amazing and like, you know, like like there's
no issues here, like because like it's it's the pendulum swinging,
you know. I mean, like one of the best things
about this show is the feedback I've gotten from the community,
people from all over indigenous communities writing me and saying, men,
(03:54):
like my kids are finally feel like they're seeing something
that represents them. Like I mean, my dad said the
other day, it was like you've given them an identity again,
Like we can be proud. And part of that being proud,
I think is just showing us as flawed, beautiful human
beings and showing that we face death and that sometimes
(04:17):
we can't handle life and sometimes we sometimes we are upset,
and sometimes we're not good people, and sometimes we're really good,
you know, and just showing that, letting people kind of
relax a little bit and take a breath, and that
we don't have to be these historical figures that that
fought and lost or won for our land and like
and it was just kind of shaking that off and
(04:39):
like a good blues song, you know, it's like what
is the how do you strip it down to what
it is? You know, It's like, yeah, without all the
fancy stuff, like what are we? We're human, you know,
and like you try to tell that the truth and
the and the and the and the light and the
darkness with that, and I think that that's what makes
a difference, and that's what gets people to identify with it,
and watching the show, I felt that I felt, you know,
watching a show like yours, watching a show like Rami Atlanta.
(05:02):
I feel like there's other shows where they're just showing
humans of cultures that have been have been in America
and a part of America for a long time, but
showing them as human. But I think one of the
most interesting ways that you did in a Reservation Dogs
was that you have a bear. One of the main characters,
Jeans T Shirt, teenage boy. He is talking to one
of his ancestors, his grandfather uncle cousin, who explicitly states
(05:26):
that he's not one of the awesome ones. But I
fought bravely. Well. I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't
even get into the fight itself, but came over that
hill real real good like. But then the damn horse
hit a gopher hole, fucking rolled over and squashed me.
I died there. He was just the guy who who
died on his horse after horse fell into a hole.
(05:48):
I thought, what's hilarious was all of that? The inspiration
behind giving Bear this very regular ancestor to guide him totally.
I mean, like we only talked about the warriors and
the heroes and stuff. I was like, you know, what
about the ones that didn't do shit or they were
scared die because their horse hit a gopher hole? Like
(06:09):
like what about them? Yeah, Like that's also a part
of us. And I think one thing that's important about
that character. I'm glad you brought it up is what
I learned because we had a comedy group Dallas Goals,
who plays Spirit, We had a comedy We have a
comedy group and we would travel around and we really
learned like what works for non native audiences for native
humor and what doesn't specifically wide audiences. You know what
(06:31):
I'm saying, um like because you gotta almost give them
permission to laugh when it's Native stuff because they want
to be like so like oh I find the same
thing with black humor, but continue exactly right, like you
gotta you gotta like oh like like oh I don't
want to laugh, like you know, you had to give
them permission a laugh. And it was it was a
taking the stereotype that like if I were to say,
(06:53):
like like draw me a Native American, like they wouldn't
draw bearer, they would draw spirit. You know. It's a
delicate thing, like trying to get people to laugh at
things that they're used to not laughing with or about
or anything, you know. So I think that that character
specifically was kind of works as that mechanism. I guess.
Tell me a little bit about how you got into film.
(07:16):
You know. I got into college and I was at
the University of Oklahoma, and I took an intro to
film and video studies with this Hungarian professor named Misha Nadelkovich,
and his like love for cinema was so contagious. And
it was when I discovered that it was a language
was when I was pumped, and like that's when I
(07:37):
really got into it. It was like, okay, I like
when I realized it wasn't just pointing a camera towards something,
it was literally like telling stories with the camera and
using cameras and shots too, and music and everything all
the senses to tell a story. I just really, I
don't know, I fell in love and I didn't look back.
(07:59):
I was like, I have to do this, you know,
And and it's sort of that sort of coincided with
me discovering that I was a pretty good writer. I
think I was always a good storyteller. I just was
not confident in writing. But it was in college that
I discovered that I could, you know, with a little work,
I could write. College is the time that we all
become a lot more self aware. I think that was
(08:20):
identified most with my blackness when I got to college
and I began to kind of express it and everything
that I did, you know, whether it was playing music,
talking to friends, whatever, it was like I had to
express my blackness. As you were becoming more creative and
writing and enjoying telling stories, did you find yourself having
that same level of expressiveness when it comes to your
(08:42):
indigenous heritage. Yeah, I mean, like it was there's two things.
I mean, like, on one hand, like I'd kind of
grown up in this community and I was hungry for
things like punk rock and indie rock, and like I
was wanting to express myself through art, and I was
discovering artists and cinnamon and all this stuff that had
nothing to do with my heritage or background, and I
(09:05):
really just kind of dove into all of that. But,
like you said, a couple of years of that though,
when I started applying myself and writing and wanting to
be a filmmaker. Then I was like, oh, but this
is the thing that's unique about me. And then and
then it was like, oh, now, then I like discovered
(09:25):
rediscovered who I was and everything kind of came from
that lens after that, and I realized that, you know,
a lot of people don't have the leg up that
I had, Like I have this like I mean what
I love about movies and cinemas that like, you can
create a world and if you do it right, an
audience will go along with you and they go into
(09:47):
your world that you've created and they give themselves over
to that. And already had a leg up because the
world I come from is so unknown that it was
a little easier. I felt like to bring people into
this world that they didn't know, you know. So after that,
I'm very similar to you. Everything kind of filtered through
that lens. When you're making discoveries about new things that
(10:11):
you love that weren't necessarily a part of your culture
growing up, for instance, punk rock, but there are things
that you're introduced to that you love. As you become
more in touch with your culture, do you look for
the connections between the thing that you love and your culture.
Oh yeah, for sure. And you know I like hip hop,
I like punk rock, I like rebellious music, and I
(10:34):
think that Indigenous people, you know, we've always been in
a bit of a rebellion. It's like, you know, it's
like there was always something to fight for to this day,
and so I connect to that. And you know, the
show is filled with punk rock and indie rock and
hip hop, and like the opening as you know, I
Want to Be Your Dog by the Stooges, and it's like,
(10:56):
you know, one of my favorite things, definding ways to
bring all of that back into my community, because I
mean it's there anyway, but it's like, how do I
show that and express it? You know, I did not
know that that was That song was by the band
Red Bull. Yeah, come and Get Your Love, incredibly popular song. Yeah, yes,
(11:23):
it was on I remember as they're singing it, I'm like,
this is from the Guardians of the Galaxy. What significance
does have here? And then at the end when you
show the band playing it, I'm like, oh my goodness,
this is all of those happy little connections. I imagine
that that inspires, inspires you to do more work to
say like see there, look at these connections, understand how
it all comes together. Oh yeah, I mean that was
(11:43):
one of my favorite things. It's like kind of reclaiming
red Bone. You know, it's like the world knows who
they are, but they don't know where they come from
and who they really are. And it was like, I
want to show that in this unique way as this
in this episode. A lot of times native people are shown,
we're only shown in the eighteen hundreds most of the time,
you know, so trying to show us in a contemporary
(12:05):
light and how you know, we're just as influenced by
all these things pop culture like everyone is, you know,
like from hip hop to movies to um to clothing,
I mean like style, you know, we're so one of
our strengths is that we were able to adapt. Like
(12:25):
for instance, in my community, UM, we have songs that
are really important and you'll you hear them being sung
at a funeral scene in the show, and they are hymns.
(12:52):
And those hymns were there are a mix of like
the style of singing was kind of brought here by
Scottish missionaries and it was called line singing. Well, then
you had free to African slaves. Next to that, there
were also a part of our tribe with the Seminal nation,
but also lived in those in the same area in
(13:12):
the southeast. And you know, all this style of singing
emerges and you hear it Enslave spiritual as you also
hear in these Muscogee Creek and Seminal hymns, and it's
a style of singing that they call it line singing,
and you know, it's a way of worshiping. It's a
way of kind of singing prayer, you know, and all
of those cultures kind of have a mix of that.
And I think that that's a beautiful thing. Like that's
(13:35):
what I love celebrating that, right, Like I love talking
about how our culture is intersect I think part of
our survival has been adapting, you know. I think the
same thing for you know, Black people in this country.
It's like part of survival is absorbing things and culture
and claiming it for ourselves, you know, and like as
or just like presenting it in a new way, you know.
And I think that's something beautiful about the intersection of
(13:58):
cultures us. It's about survival. I think I am I
am a Black Christian. I've been in the church my
whole life. My father's an assistant pastor. Like, I'm heavily
involved in the church. And I do remember that funeral
scene where they were singing, doing the line singing. I
was struck by that part. I was like, this is very,
very familiar. And I think that's one thing about the
(14:19):
show Reservation Dogs is that it's it's very familiar. As
soon as it comes on and you realize that the
main characters are are basically on a quest to get
out of their little small town. I was like, oh, oh, yeah,
this is familiar, Like I know this story. Yeah, everybody
can relate to that, right, yeah, And I like that
you use that in order to make it familiar. But
(14:39):
then you you slowly start introducing concepts that I didn't
know about, which is an episode two. You immediately start
talking about Indian Health Services and subtly making these little
statements about it throughout What are you here for? Come
to a fight bosting my nose? I got some good ones,
and now tell your mom, no, I didn't. You shouldn't
(15:04):
either patient doctor protocol or whatever it's called. Tell me
a little bit about what your intentions were by teasing
out the lessons that that me is not non indigenous
person would learn from watching a show like this. We
all know what bad health care is, right, Like, my
whole goal is to be very specific show this culture,
(15:30):
be very specific about the nuance and the differences and
the little things that details that make it real. But
it all has an undercurrent of your universality. And I
think that those two, the combination of those two things
are what make people want to come back and watch
the show, because I think when we're like young and
(15:50):
we're activists and we're you know, in our early twenties,
we want to yell, you know, we want like a
bullhorn to yell. But you realize people don't listen when
you yell, and if you want people to hear, you
have to find the right way to deliver it to them,
like making a podcast, right, making a podcast, making a show,
(16:12):
but also making a balance of like where I don't
feel like I'm you don't feel like you're you're getting
a lecture, You're just getting little tastes of lessons of
healthcare disparities in America and Indigenous communities through a really
funny episode that all takes place at the Indian Clinic,
you know, where Bobby Lee is a doctor and like
(16:34):
all of these things. Yeah, So I think it's like
something that I've been this a needle I've been trying
to threat through from a whole career. Most people that
have an opportunity, especially when it comes to underserved communities
and minority groups that are underrepresented, especially in how in
TV and film, you don't necessarily know if you're going
to get another chance at this, So you kind of
just have to, you know, set your path straight and
(16:54):
whatever happens happens. But you guys get a season two,
Do you have a plan for us to have a
long term stay with reservation dogs or oh yeah, yeah.
My friend Taikytt helped open the door for me and
then he was like all right, you know, there you go.
And I was like I have to swing for the fences,
like I'm gonna not doubt myself. You know, we all
(17:17):
have that in our heads where where that imposter syndrome
like should I be here? Like am I supposed to
be here? Like do I deserve this? I mean, you
know that's something I've always dealt with and you know,
and I've always as a as a Native person minority.
I've always fought any sort of I don't hand me
anything like, and I've never gotten manned at something that
(17:40):
I felt was racist. I mean, I've been told so
many times like this is too native, we can't fund this,
you know, like I don't like Native films, don't sell
or anything. I never let that get me, man, it
just fueled me. I almost wanted the hardest path because
it's in. It was in my head from a young age.
My mom, I remember, we would get this. My tribe
would give us a clothing voucher before school started, two
(18:03):
hundred and fifty bucks to go to the mall and
get yourself some clothing. And because it's tribal money, it's
not untaxable. But you know, the people at Dillards weren't
used to that, and my mom would just battle them
and be like, no, it's non taxable. And if they
made it sound like it was a handout anyway, my
mom would be like, this is not a handout. This
is inheritance from our trial, you know. And so I
(18:26):
always almost like subconsciously one of the harder, like like, yeah,
be racist, Like I hope you don't understand what Native
stories are because someday I'm gonna show you, you know.
And I made all low budget films until this point.
I mean, like you could have only made two episodes
of Reservation Dogs with the budget of most of my
feature films, you know. So when I got here, I
(18:46):
was like, all right, I fought to be here. I
got nothing to lose. I'm gonna swing for the fences
and see what happens. And I never doubted myself and
I just went for it. And I think that that
was key to having a successful show because I wasn't
second guessing myself. I wasn't editing myself. I was just
going for it. With the success that you're having with
(19:14):
the show, how do you consider opening the door for
other Native creators that maybe want to come after you?
Do you have a plan for to have Do you
feel a responsibility to do that right? And if so,
plan for that? I mean definitely. I mean, like I
don't have the show without Taykott, you know, like like
um him helping a friend down, and I've done the same.
I mean, like every writer on the show, they're all Indigenous,
(19:37):
and they're all friends. All of the directors were friends
of mine that I wanted to give you know, their
first TV shot or and one of them a directs
TV already, but two others like it was their first
time directing TV. UM doing the same thing for the
next season. UM. And then also I have no overall
deal at ects now and part of that is me
bringing okay, bringing in other folks. Yeah, so like that's honestly,
(20:01):
like I think my favorite thing about what's happened is
like I now get to help people with their projects.
And because I mean, for me, like how I always
made my films and also how I made Reservation Dogs
was it was not like a top down thing, like
I don't like the hierarchy of Hollywood and how they
usually do it. Like for me, it's just like you
(20:21):
can't say that old Mike Sterling getting tracked. But like
you know, I love the community aspect of it, Like
I love like just how Reservation Dogs is kind of
about a community. That's how I like making this stuff.
So with being with bringing in a lot more and
working with other Native creators, you know, we're seeing kind
(20:41):
of like an inflection point right now where the Native
community is receiving a lot of artistic attention. These stories
and perspectives have always been important, but what do you
think makes them more important to tell in this moment.
Like with African American cinema and TV, you know, you
had these moments like Boys in the Hood and things
(21:01):
like that where it's like you're reflecting on your communities.
I mean, like one of my biggest influences on the
show was was Friday. Oh that's a classic ice cube
Chris Tucker, nineteen ninety five. I love that movie. By
all accounts, that neighborhood is supposed to be the ghetto
and scary and dangerous, but it's you know, in Friday,
(21:22):
it's like funny, Like it's not thriving, but it's like
a beautiful you know, it's a celebration. And there might
be one house that's like an asshole lives in, but
then the next one was like manicured and they're funny
and whatever. You know, It's like, that's what I want
to do. Like literally, whenever I was designing the kind
of the neighborhood of the of the reservation where they live,
we looked at Friday, and we use more pastel colors
(21:45):
and painted the houses and you know, like I think
people's first inclination when I think of reservation is to
make everything trashy, you know, because that's what we've seen
in the documentaries. I was like, no, Like there might
be one house that has like a card in the
yard or whatever, but then the neighbor's house is going
to be manicured and there's gonna be flowers and stuff,
you know, Like that's that's we're people, you know, We're
(22:06):
in this moment that I see that I saw. I
think with African American cinema, like Friday and all of
that were like you had boys in the hood, You're
talking about problems within our community and everything. And then
and then you move into Friday and it's like, oh,
but this is a celebration. But also we're still talking
about like our own issues, you know, like our own
issues in our community, and we're talking about suicide and
our own issues that we're facing. And it's not about
(22:28):
how do white people save us, It's about how do
we handle these problems ourselves? Like how do we address them?
What is unique about the way that we address them?
And so I see us in this infancy in our
storytelling and where we're at and where we can go
is limitless from every angle. If our listeners want to
(22:50):
get involved in help seeing more visibility within Native American
arts and film communities, what can they do. Illuminative is
a really good organization that kind of covers everything from
education to entertainment to art. I mean like they really
cover a lot. And I think that that is My
friend Crystal elcoh Hawk runs that and I think that
(23:13):
I don't know that they're just growing and they're building,
and they've really done so much in helping us be
visible and also celebrating what's happening in Indian country. You know,
follow him on Instagram Illuminative and they really give you
a good broad sense of where you can go and
who's all involved in the community. Thank you so much
(23:34):
for being with the Sterlings. Has been incredible. Thank you. Sterlin.
Hard Joe is the filmmaker, creator, and showrunner of Reservation Dogs,
and he's directed three future films, including Four Sheets to
the Wind, Barking Water, and Mecco, and two documentaries This
May Be the Last Time and Love and Fury. Season
(23:57):
two of Reservation Dogs is coming later in twenty twenty two.
You can find a link to his work and also
Illuminative in our show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank,
Research by David Jack, book by Lisa Dunn. Editorial support
from Keishell Williams. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and
our Executive producer is mio Lebelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior.
(24:20):
Thanks for listening.
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