November 22, 2022 • 43 mins
Sherman “Dilla” Thomas has become the face of Chicago history on TikTok, TV and in tours. So Khalil and Ben go on a mission to find out how Dilla became the city’s number one booster. We hear how Thomas was influenced by the stories told by his father, a Chicago police officer, and the influence of hometown Black politicians who were making history right in front of him. But mainly, he says, he’s driven by curiosity about how the city became what it is, and he wanted to bond with his kids by becoming the coolest dad on TikTok.
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Pushing. I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that
I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I
like football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,
I've had to live like this double life forever, like
I was cooler than I was, so I would be
sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and I
(00:36):
would be in my phone life researcher Who Charles Whacker is?
Because all day long I've been trying to figure out
why they call it Whacker Drive Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad
Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black,
one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And
this is some of my best friends are. Some of
(00:58):
my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show,
we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a
deeply divided and unequal country. And this week, the nation's
leading urban historian, on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla
Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is everything Dope comes
(01:19):
from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be
a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a
whole lot of history. Only I am really excited this
(01:39):
week about the conversation we're going to have with Sherman
Della Thomas. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, you and I
are constantly talking about this balance between like like stories
of tragedy and challenge and also like how do we
celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah? Yeah, this
is so central to everything we do and like even
even probably how we live of like you know, delving
(02:01):
into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I have
to live with having written a book Condemnation of Blackness,
which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive.
It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways,
like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even
if thinking about this of you know, what it means
to celebrate a place, what it means to be a
booster something is gained and also something is lost. But
(02:23):
here we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas,
who might be one of the most positive people about
Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah,
I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know
how how did you meet this guy. Man. I started
seeing his videos all over the place, you know, and
here he is like wearing white Sox gear or Bulls gear.
He's like holding his microphone to his mouth, and he
(02:46):
is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like the first
black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago. Did
I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard, you know.
And he actually reached out to me because he did
an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote this book
High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so we met
that way. And you know, he did this whole episode
about public housing in Chicago. Yeah. It's like I've seen
(03:10):
these in learning so much from them, and then they
blew up. They're all over the place. They're viral. I mean,
he has reportedly over four million views counting just from
last year. I mean, who knows how many more now.
And he's also started a bus company to take people
on actual tours of the city, Mahogany Tours. This is
(03:30):
a really incredible use of history, right, I mean, so
you're a historian, and this is history that is somehow
being lived and experienced outside of books. Even it's traveling
all over the place, and he's on the news here,
he's on television. He becomes a kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah, man,
I'm really excited to get to know this guy too,
because as a historian, it's not often the case that
(03:52):
one I learned things I didn't know about my own city,
and two that you get to use history in a
way that is empowering to people who live in a
city to think about their connection to folks who've come
before them and use that as a kind of inspiration
to say, hey, you know, I should be proud walking
there because other people have done amazing things who've come
before me. Yeah. Yeah, And for me, I want to know, like,
(04:14):
can you both extol a place and also tell about
its really complicated, difficult parts at the same time. So
let's hear from Dillah. Let's go talk to them, all right,
Sherman Dillah Thomas, welcome to some of my best friends.
(04:35):
Are Yes, thank you, thank you, brother Ben for having me.
Brother Muhammad truly alan to be here. Oh man, man,
I mean you we're Chicagoans, and we're Southsiders, and you
are Chicago's favorite urban historian. That's right, the man, the
myth legend. We are super excited about this, and this
is the first time in the history if some of
(04:55):
my best friends are we have both been referred to
as brother. I mean, I'm used to brother Muhammad. I
mean that, you know, that kind of goes with territory.
But we didn't get a twofer until now. We're so
excited to talk with you. You are the TikTok history
lessons King. It's amazing what you're doing. Before we get
to that, though, you go by the name Dillah, Right,
what's that about? My mother was calling me serm dealer
(05:19):
like d E A L e R. Got it. She
used to say that. I reminded her the used car
dealers on Western knew I could get right. I could
get her to buy any any jump ever, and we
all knew better. Western Avenue is a street in Chicago
where as soon as you get fifteen hundred dollars as
of kids, you go there to buy your used car
and it's gonna break as soon as you get home.
Everybody's car does, but we do it anyway. And so
(05:42):
that was that like her thing for me, and the
kid's heard scherm dealer and just start calling me Dilla, right,
you know. So that's so that's where that comes from, Della.
I love it. So I know Ben knows you a
little better than I do. So when did you get started, Dila?
And I know your your daughter was inspiration, but just
for my purposes, tell me, tell me exactly when you
got started. I got started right out of November of
(06:04):
twenty twenty. Okay. We were all in the house, yeah,
and then stuck in the house with pandemic. You know,
we're all on lockdown. And my daughter wanted to do
TikTok's and the family told her, no, what's up with that?
That's me. She was eight, right, and they thought that
eight was a little too young to be on an
app by yourself. So I later like just downloaded on
(06:26):
my phone and you know, and anybody looking TikTok a
little heart out right and um and then but also
I kind of figured i'd be a good way for
me to just see what she's engaging in, right, you know,
And so we did that. First she wanted to watch,
then she wanted to dance, and because you know, I'm
not the best dancer, we were doing like those little
daddy daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself, the
(06:49):
same thing, covid times a little little Daddy Daughter mix
mixtape on TikTok. Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids.
And what happened was we did one of her friend
did the same. One of her friend got like two
thousand views and we got like sixty. You suck. This
is all you. You can't oh man, Like oh not
(07:11):
just that, but like she she took like a self
esteem wall, like why why her over me? And just
so many things. Right, So I was like, you know,
I know Chicago history, baby, let me let me feed
you some lines. That has to be the corniest intervention
I've ever heard in my life. Let me do history
on your TikTok. That is gonna blow your spot up, baby.
(07:32):
I think the first one I did was like maybe
telling how Chicago created the time zones for the country. Okay,
we gotta hear that. Let's play that clip. Do you
ever wonder why California's two hours behind Chicago or New
York to an hour ahead? Well, it's because right here
in Chicago we set up the time zones for the country.
And it got more views than the lad than what
(07:54):
her and I did, and then so she said, do
another one and let me stand next to you. Right,
She just wanted to stand there, and then we did,
and then that one get views and then you just
started rolling. I just started rolling. You know, have you
always been a history buff? Did you always study? Yeah,
that's what I was thinking, Ben, good question. I was
thinking the exact same thing. I've always been in history buff.
I didn't study history. My dad was a Chicago policeman
(08:16):
for thirty two years and he got hired on October
nineteen sixty nine. So that's the pedigree I come from.
And you know, they talk history in squire cards. They
talk history amongst each other, and then they took their
kids to work with them, right, Yeah, Can I ask
you one question? Though? They'll about about your dad and
(08:36):
going and going up to work with them, because I
never really thought about a kid going to work with
their father who's a police officer. I used to go
to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist for
a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were you
putting like little bullets in the revolver to make sure
Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No,
I'm not quite, you know, really just sit down, shut
(08:59):
up and listen. Just a lot of that was just
security detail, because I know part of what it's in
your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually
worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was
Chicago's first black mayor elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah. Yeah,
(09:20):
he worked at security detail. He worked here mostly US detail.
He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what
I'm saying that particular time frame, right as black politicians
are making this you know, surge, they are picking their
own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had
started off as an Afro American Patrolman's league. Now they
(09:40):
called the African American Police League, but it was like
a union inside of the union. It's the reason why
they're black sergeists, is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right.
They sued the city and got that famous injunction to
change the entry exams for both fire and police department
as as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us a
TikTok history lesson about the Afroma. That's just like it's
(10:02):
coming out of your pores. It started off as an
Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was. It was
a star about Renaut Robinson, Howard Sappho, And what it
was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white
cop could wear a cross to work because it's considered
a religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black
power movement was coming into effect, right, going into the
(10:24):
nineteen seventies, Right, we're Afros, we were proud, and so
black officers would want to wear an unc, which is
also considered a religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions, right,
but comic meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's
spelled on a n k H. It's a type of
cross that we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning
(10:45):
Egyptian related. Absolutely, And black officers would get suspended for
wearing their aunts, but white officers would not get suspended
for wearing their crosses, right uh. And so those are
the things that activated the Afros founded as the Afro
American Police League to fight back. Like I said, you
could see your brother being harassed by white cops. You're
(11:05):
a cop, your brother in blue, your brother, your blood brother,
and so you can see your bin, you can see
your brother getting harrass your black dude. You see your
brother getting her ass back. Cops, you pull up, Hey, guys,
I'm a cop. Show your badge. Right, that cop would
get suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right,
the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody
(11:27):
being harassed by a white cop all the time. So
that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah,
it's an amazing I mean even telling that story because
you're celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the
work that your father did working in it, and the
very reason for its founding is that cops needed to
fight racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks.
(11:49):
I wanted to just say, just as a matter of
like political history, you mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who
is the first black female senator in the history of
the nation, and she's only the second black senator at
any point after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip
of Carol Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run
for senator. All over the state feeling about this candidacy
(12:10):
is electric, and it's electric precisely because people know that
we make that this is a watershed election and that
it's time for a change. It's time for change in Illinois,
it's time for change in this country. I say that
to say that, like, that's a really big political moment
for you to be like as a kid on the
lap of your father who's directly connected to these people,
(12:32):
that that, for my purposes, that makes you an eyewitness
to history. I'll rock your your educational brain even more. Right.
I think the reason why they let me stay in
the room because when she was making I remember it
like it was yesterday. We were at Sherman Park. This
was like July doing that one of those votes for
me campaign things, right, yeah, on the south side, yes, sir.
(12:52):
And so she had like a campaign riley thing at
Sherman Park and she was sitting in the front. My
dad was driving another car. Cop was sitting next to me.
And this was the Peewee Little League Championship. And I
chose to go my dad and play in the Peewee
Little League Championship. But I remember the conversation she said,
you know, they were like, can you believe you're getting
(13:13):
ready to be the first woman ever, first black woman ever?
US Senator and then the same thing you said. They
mentioned reconstruction, and then she said, well, that's the Chicago thing.
The priest was first to go to Congress since reconstruction too, right,
And I'm you know, ten to eleven or something like that,
but I couldn't wait to use it the next time
I was around my dad people. Yeah, so that's that's
(13:38):
a really strong impression, both in terms of like seeing
this person who you know, is larger than life in
terms of her political achievements, and at the same time,
like getting these history lessons from this same person. That's
pretty incredible. I don't think right now, I'm probably like
that is a Dopus hill, right. You just feel like
(13:59):
I didn't have all those thoughts there. That was I
promised I did not, even most recently, right, Like I
just wanted to be around my podcast, you know. That
was that was because he was a cop. He wasn't
really home a lot, especially young ages. You know, I
don't remember him at all six seven, eight years old.
I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated
(14:22):
because I was like, he for sure, that's the way
to get them some quality time. Man, he would like
to work the next day Yeah, he got shot in
his hand and they wrapped sold it up whatever, and
he went back the next I was so pissed off.
It must not have been a shooting hand though. Right,
(14:44):
that's hilarious. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break.
When we come back, we'll dig into more Chicago history
stories from Della. All Right, we are back talking to
(15:08):
Sherman Della Thomas, the Chicago booster and oral historian. So, Dillah,
one of your tag lines is everything dope comes from Chicago.
You're like one of Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city.
And maybe, just like you know, tell us something dope
that came from Chicago that would surprise us. Give us
one of these little history lessons. The Fireman's pole, I
(15:31):
think surprises most people. The Fireman's pole, like its use
is sliding down. The pole comes from Chicago. It's about
eighteen seventy four, is eighteen seventy five and coming out
of reconstruction in Chicago has created and all black fire
engine is Engine twenty one the land by a white captain,
but it's you know, twelve fourteen brothers that fight fires
(15:51):
in its growing black neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting
a half. We've ever been in the fire station, you'll
notice that it has spiral stairs, and every fire station
in the world has spiral stairs. And next to it
is where the pole is. The reason why the stairs
of spirals because we used to fight fires with horses.
The horses used to walk up the stairs and eat
all the hay, and then you be looking for the
(16:13):
horse and he up that sleep, right, So they created
the spiral stairs so the horse couldn't get up there.
And the next two it was they had the pole
for the hay loft, right, so the hay is kept
up in the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right,
Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up
high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And
then it was held in place with a pole. And
(16:34):
then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed hey,
you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops
down now where you ain't got to go all the
way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for
firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was just
a letter. But you know who we don't talk about
enough in Chicago is the captain that like the sad
of his name is Captain Coolly Duan. He was a
hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one and
(16:56):
when he's seen the black guys slid down that hay pole,
he's the guy that was like, yeah, that's gans go
ahead and send it, so y'all don't get splinters. And
this is how we will respond from here on out. So, Dylan,
I'm listening to you, and like, you know, Khalil and
I or both, you know, we both write books, we
both do tons of research. We both write about Chicago,
Like how do you get all this information? Like how
(17:17):
were you? What kind of research do you do? And
also like damn man, like you got this all off
the Dome's what's up? Like you remember all this? Jay
Z ruined my life? So let's start there. I remember
that that famous interview he did where he was like,
I don't write, and it was like what And he
was like, you know, I just say my rhymes and
myself over and over and by the time I get
(17:37):
back to the house, I don't need to write them
down right, it becomes an exercise. I went to Eastern
Illinois University major in English and African American studies and
probably wrote three papers because I would always say, let
me give it to you orally. Right. So when when
people read say like your book High Rises, right, like,
oh oh man, good look at it. Yeah, I jacked
so much stuff out of that book, then better than that,
(18:01):
I immediately want to read the stuff that you sourced
from right right, you know, and though those are the
cheats that I think people people forget about, right, we
want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources. A
lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in that
in that way, right, you gotta like dogging. So you're
just you're reading all the time and going to the
(18:22):
library and picking up books. I mean you're like just
he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading. That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm
a nerd. Right, I don't gotta think like I like
football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,
I've had to live like this double life forever. Like
I was way cooler than I was. So I would
be sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and
(18:43):
I would be on my phone, like researching who Charles
Whacker is, because all day long I've been trying to
figure out why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, So,
like researching is my pastime, you know what I mean,
Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate
on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing,
and then out of that you get so many you know,
(19:04):
bread crumbs and those type of things. So that's just
how I passed the time. I mentioned my book High Risers,
which is about Cabrini Green, a public housing complex sens
in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for a
lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you do
is that this was a place that was demonized because
of its poverty and also violence. And you did a
TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok machine
(19:28):
and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the history
of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to give
it a try. And that the stories there were much
more complex and many many lives that needed to be
you know, and many stories that needed to be told
that weren't being covered. But you did do a TikTok
about Cabrini Green, and when you posted it and mentioned
my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah, yeah, right.
(19:51):
I gotta believe the one I got to receist because
at least a dozen people. I didn't just post your book,
I said, buy this book. Man, that is great. We
got to hear that clip. Despite it, all the residents
of Gabrini Green had a great sense of community by
this book. I think the TikTok with the first posting
got like maybe one hundred thirty thousand views. How much
(20:13):
you're paying for a commercial for one hundred and thirty
thousand people. So I'll get you a hot dog if
you could, If you could tell us what is the
history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know, no
one knows that it's such a wives tell sort of thing, right,
the no catchup. The best that I can find is
that there are already so many ingredients on it that
(20:33):
you don't you don't need to catch up, right, I
tell you the origin of like Italian beef. I love
telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story.
So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods
are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef
because you know that deep dish pizza. I'm not really
into that. Italian beef comes from how we used to
(20:54):
Italian grannies give us Italian beefs. Right. The Italians were
like the last arriving immigrants to Chicago at that moment,
and when they used to walk into the butcher, that
was discriminated again. So you know, if you're a Yankee Protestant, right,
they would sell you the surloin of the t bone.
But you were dark and complected Irish lady, I mean
Italian lady, you had to buy the rump ros, right,
that's what they would sell to you. So the cow,
(21:18):
the chitlands of the cow, right, And that's not a
very tender cut of meat. Yeah, that's not a great
advertise in the first Italian beach, it's not at all right,
but this is what but see, that's the beauty about Chicago.
Out of discrimination comes amazing shit. Right, Because she was
discriminating in the butchers, what did she do? She's like, Okay,
I ain't gonna worry about it. I'm gonna put it
in a slow cooker and when my husband leaves out
for work, I'll turn it on and by the time
(21:39):
he gets from work, I'll turn it off. And anything
you cook for fucking eight hours is going to be
the most tender thing, right, And what's the cheat? The
cheat is the bread. And it don't take anything, especially
if you're making homemade bread. Right, little flower, little doe,
a little whatever, right, you make amazing bread. She took that.
Then eight hour cut roast the rump right and thinly
(22:00):
sliced it and fair. The kids say a little bit
for his lunch, right, And then every day more and
more people are like, throw they lunch away and start
asking Broth for some of his sandwiches because they was
really really juicy and tender because they cooked all day.
And he started selling so many of his lunch sandwiches
he quit his job. And you know, Al's beef right,
Like damn man, if you got to be careful asking
(22:20):
you a question, it is like it opens one door
and then another and then another. You just like, go ahead, Khalil, Well,
I'm curious, So do you have any inspirations role models
people who you have now begun to model yourself, now
that you've become basically the most famous Chicago historian. I mean,
at this point you own that title. Thank you. Send
(22:42):
this clip to the city so that they can make
me the official culture historian. I'm definitely chasing the legacy
of Tamil Black. There we go. Yeah, wow, Tamil Black.
Let me just say so. He died one year ago
at age one hundred and two, and he was I'd
say Chicago's greatest historian and lived Chicago history, you know,
(23:03):
moving here from the South, being a civil rights leader,
schooling Barack Obama. You know you are living his legacy.
Tell us more about him. He moved to Chicago a
couple of months after the race riot in nineteen nineteen.
He was an infant. He's a gentleman that invited Doctor
King speaked in Chicago for the first time, right because
he was already a civil rights activist, right, Yeah, absolutely,
(23:25):
He's a World War two veteran. He was at DuSable
with Red Fox, nattem Co, Dinah Washington, Harold Washable as
a high school here on the South Side, Second Black
High School, second high school constructive for African Americans in
the city's history on the South Side. Man, I love
all that I love. Tamio Black is amazing. I had
(23:45):
the great honor of interviewing him a couple of times.
You know, he is a Chicago booster, and you know,
so are you. And I want to talk more about
this idea of what it means to be so positive
about the city. Was so positive about Chicago, because this
is something this is something I actually think about all
the time. Della and Khalil. You don't only think about it,
(24:06):
You really obsess over this question because so much of
your work is about pushing back against stereotypes. I'm talking
to you Ben about like the crime and the violence
and all of that. Yeah, and at the same time, right, so,
I'm writing about criminal justice issues, I'm writing about poverty
and segregation in Chicago. I'm writing about what the reality
of Chicago. And it's also like we're getting all these
(24:29):
messages about Chicago which are or extreme, you know, whether
it's like this hell hole or whether it's you know, Iraq,
when that movie came out, you were so pissed. Those
are just abstractions. It's like just just the worst stuff
exists in isolation without anything else. But the bad stuff
really is there too, like and so so the struggle
(24:52):
is like to address these real issues because it's important
to grapple with them, to wrestle with them, because otherwise
we can't we can't change them. How do we do both?
The example I use when I get asked this particular
type of question, I really feel like I'm preaching to
the choired, especially talking to you, brother, being is like,
my daughter has asthma. We probably on our way to
(25:13):
like go get a breathing treatment tomorrow, the way that
her asthma is going to date, right, thank you, brother,
So I understand wanting to deal with the symptoms that
are in front of me right now, right when she
gets the coffin she has a running nose. I want
to give her a house. I wanted to blow a nose.
I want to get to dehumidified in her room. Right.
But you know, if that's all I ever do each
(25:35):
time she gets sick, she's gonna keep getting sick every
now and again. I got to go in the basement
and check the filters, right, I gotta see what's blowing
through this house that's making her sick. Beyond that, right,
I might have to get a plumber in because her
room is by the bathroom to check the wet wall
and see, right, if there's mold behind the walls that
we can't see. What's my long winded point When we
talk about the people that got shot and the people
(25:58):
that got killed, I'm I hate that they got killed.
I hate that they got shot. I think that that
needs attention. But like that's where the stat starts and stops, right,
and we don't mention that the three people that got
killed are involved in the STL versus Old Block war
that started because Ram Emmanuel closed fifty schools and so
(26:18):
three kids had to cross Kane Drive where formerly those
kids never cross Kane Drive to go to school. Then
one of them got you know what I mean, like
spell that shit all the way out right, and then
talk about how it always always always goes back to
some kind of systemic bullshit. You know what. We usually
call it structural racism, but I like just systemic bullshit better.
That is from the heroin out ben rest of the seasons,
(26:40):
just systemic bullshit. We are back on. Some of my
best friends are with Sherman Della Thomas. It seems to
(27:03):
me what you're saying is that the structural bullshit has
to be addressed also by how people see themselves in
the history of the place they live in, that all
these stories you're telling are a way of empowering young people,
especially that you should have pride of place, that a
lot of people did a lot of wonderful things here,
and people have been fighting for justice here. You don't
(27:24):
have to do this alone. You have this this inspiration,
and I'm going to tell you these stories. And guess what,
it's not just a couple of stories. And it's not
just black history, mother man. It is fucking TikTok. Every
day I get that right, every day? You know, they go,
these kids to go to Irvin Mollison Elementary which is
on forty fifth and King Drive on the south side
of Chicago. Whenever I come across the kid to go
(27:45):
to Mollison, I asked them who is Irvin Mollison? They
can never tell me. But then I say, have you
ever read A Raisin in the Sun? Right? And they say, oh, yeah,
right with Lorraine Hansbury. Okay, Well, it was Earl Dickerson
and Irvin Mollison that were his lawyers that took that
case to the Supreme Court that opened up woodline right
that it allowed for that eventually emman Till's mom and
(28:06):
everybody else starts to move into into Woodline. It's because
of Irvan Morlinson Earl B. Dickerson. Wow, there's so much
history you've packed in there. I mean, this is why
you're so amazing. You know, everyone, including my own kids,
have read Lorraine Hansberry's classic work, A Raising in the Sun.
And if people haven't read it, they might have seen
the movie starring Sydney Potier. And to know that the
(28:29):
people who were responsible for helping that black family, her
black family move into Woodlawn and to help ultimately to
bring down restrictive covenants, one of the main ways in
which black people were segregated all across the country, including
places like Chicago. That's a lot of important history you're
talking about. Man, Why aren't the people that go you
(28:49):
should as soon as you walk into Irvan Morleson, it
should be a sign. You should have to read it
every day to graduate kindergarten. Then you should have to
recite it by heart to graduate out of eighth grade, right,
and then then you know what I mean. But yeah,
and it's and it's kind of crazy and insane that
kids who go to Mollison Elementary don't know that history,
don't know the story of that civil rights struggle, that's
their history. And so your your tiktoks are both addressing
(29:13):
things that we should feel pride and and but there
they are addressing these systemic bullshit problems. Yeah, for sure, Right,
if you're traveling anywhere in the world, you're gonna walk
back somebody with cubs had or a sock's head or
a bear's head, and then y'all gonna make this act
contact with each other, right and give each other that
head now. And they don't matter what ethnicity they are.
If y'all out of town, y'all both from Chicago, it's
gonna be an acknowledgement. Right, TikTok allows for that to happen.
(29:36):
I don't see the head not back, right, but when
they when they get the video and they see me,
they're able to give that Chicago head nod. But it
also sounds like you have a huge audience outside of Chicago.
And if that's true, what do you think appeals to
people who are not actually Chicagoans? I think think the truth, Right,
there's a natural Chicago curiosity, La curiosity, New York curiosity,
(30:00):
and hearing bullcrap sometimes sounds like bullcrap and so and
when you mean bullcrap of like vilifying the city, of
saying the city is a war zone, of saying that
it's like did you if you go in there, you're
gonna get shot? Like it's dangerous everywhere you go. Yep,
absolutely well. Last year, right, I announced that we want
best Big City for five years running about Kande nassas
(30:20):
Reader's Choice. It's a national platform, righty, Chicago is ain't
sitting around feeling out that survey. Right people coming to
Chicago's filing out that survey. And it's true, We're an
amazing city. I believe it was Northwestern that did a
study that says it was like really really telling too,
like ninety two percent of all people who get shot
(30:40):
in Chicago had a ninety five percent probability of getting
shot in Chicago based off of the lifestyle that they
were living, right. And So what that makes me want
to talk about is the other two point five million
of us who are outside of that number, who day
by day don't get shot, right, who the probability says
we aren't going to get shot because of the amazing things,
(31:02):
but just the culture and the sustainability of our City.
Global warming is real, the same way that everybody's beating
up on Chicago. Now in fifty years, we're going to
be right back over crowded just because of Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, I'm still struggling with this idea of what
it means to be a booster for a place. And
I actually follow you because it gives me. It makes
(31:24):
me feel good about my home. And I'm hearing things
I want to hear, and I'm also walking the streets
on the South Side and you know, a car suddenly
zooms up and the first thought that is in my
head is like, there's about to be a car jacking,
because its actually been like two or three on the block,
like not like imaginary stuff, real stuff. And when there's
a shooting at the school two blocks for me where
(31:47):
parents are pulling their kids out, and I've got neighbors
who want to move, Like, it's not just that five
percent that got shot. It's also like all the residual
effects of all this stuff, which is real, as you know.
And like what you're really talking about is fear. This fear,
a sense of like how do you even rationally deal
with danger? I mean, you were talking about your father
being on the Chicago Police Department for thirty years and
(32:08):
you obviously you saw a lot firsthand, and you feel
great pride in what he did, like even personally, how
do you tell his story and celebrate what he did
and also tell the story of abusive policing that's also
part of the story of Chicago. You just tell it.
You know, it's gonna have a little bias in it
(32:29):
because I'm a Chicago and right with my perspective is black,
So maybe I'm slightly rooting for the black guy in
the story a little more. I just I try to
just have a very objective perspective about the stories that
I'm telling, and I think because of the intersectionalities of
my life, it makes it makes me uniquely able to
do it right, you know. Can you give an example? Yeah? Absolutely.
(32:51):
There was nothing better for me than to just watch.
He taught me how to tie a tie at four,
and so I would tie his ties when he put
in his uniform on and I was standing there and
wait to hand it to him, so he just pull
it around his neck. And just seeing him put that
badge on, right, seeing him put his gun in his
host that it gave me, and he was a superhero
to you. Your father was a superhero to you, and
(33:13):
just not just he made police superheroes to me. Right,
And then it could be hours later. I'm at the
rink on eighty seven Street on the South Side with
my friends and the cop and say hey, move and
I don't move fast enough, and I got a na
miller met at my head. Right, it didn't even get
enough time to register your acts and me to walk away. Man,
(33:33):
that's crazy. So a cop put a gun to your
head for what And you're not saying a hypothetical, You're
talking about something. This is one thousand percent what happened
to me. This is a thousand percent what happened to me.
I was chilling. I just got my license. This is
not a hypothetical, right, like I did all the time,
handed him his tie to go to work and you know,
to have a great day dad, and still felt that
(33:54):
pride that I had been filling my whole life. And
so both of those are true at the same time
at the same time. Man, And it's it's those It's
so many stars. I come across them all the time.
I'm only emphasizing how incredible this brother storytelling is I
mean he is. He is telling stories that people ought
to know. This isn't just a Chicago story. These are
national stories. That's the other thing about messaging. And I
(34:16):
think that's our problem as a city, right. You know
the people who work in city hall, right, whoever does
our advertising our messaging stinks. This is the worst. Right.
So one last question, Della, one last question for you.
You're celebrating all these amazing Chicago things. Everything dope comes
from Chicago. So Khalil and I are from Chicago. Yeah, man,
(34:36):
we want to be celebrated, right, Like you know, when
you do the TikTok about us, we're making history. A
white guy and a black guy getting together. You know,
he broke the color line of podcasts. You know, when
you do the TikTok about us, what's the hook gonna be?
Let's see who I'm gonna compare you guys too. I
think I will make the comparisons. You'll be Julius rosenwall right.
(35:02):
Sears the founder of Sears Roebuck Company. So he's the
reason why you know what Sears and Roebuck Company is today.
And he took over as president. They were at about
two hundred thousand a year, and when he left to
pursue philanthropy totally, they were like at two hundred million
a year. And this is nineteen twenties money, all right,
So not the founder. He just built the company into something,
(35:24):
built the company out right. He's also he created two
thousand high schools in the South. John Lewis graduated from
a rosen Water school to name the google as soon
as you hear this podcast right now, Julius Roads and
Wall Ben that's a lot, man. So I'm like, damn, well,
what's left so that that would be being And then
I think you, brother Muhammed, you'd be Carter G. Woodson man.
(35:44):
You know, such grad school, the University of Chicago holding
shop at the Wall bash YMCA, which is on the
South side, is the birthplace a Black History Month, all
of the lectures. Right, He personally, you know, schooled so
many people. He got Archibald Motley to continue to paint, right,
(36:05):
that's right, one of the Renaissance painters. He was. He
was in Chicago at such a pivotal time teaching organizational
skills and eventually right they found the Chicago urinly they
get the Chicago branch of the NAACP. But it's a
lot to do with people who were as students of
him while he was a student, right, you know, so
(36:27):
that that that'd be YouTube, got it? Got it? I
appreciate that. So Ben, Ben's the philanthropist. So Ben, I
need some money, man, I need I need you to
fund my next research project. You know, when this serious
thing blows up, I got you. I just need this.
I just need this serious thing to blow out. You
are doing so much, not just for Chicago, but for
(36:48):
lifting up the stories of our past that we need
to know, the good, the bad, the ugly. You're reminding
us that for some of us, we come from greatness,
meaning that you know, people have sacrificed on our behalf
to pave the way for others. And I just so
appreciate how much you are doing in that city and
for your community, and especially for those beutiful daughters of
(37:10):
yours and listen, and you're also you're also showing a
love for learning, which is infectious, and you know we're
feeling it, and I think you know everyone else who
is listening to you is as well. Thank you, all right,
thank you very much. I was humble when I got
the request. I really, I really am. I appreciate both
of you guys in the work that you're doing, the
legacy you both carries. Like I say, I still think
(37:33):
being sort of ows being a hot dog, he said,
at least ten books do I definitely do now now now,
after this show one hundred percent or you're a hot dog.
Thank you guys. Hey man, you're now one of our
best friends, so I hope you'll you'll come back and
join us at some point again. All right, man, thank you,
thank you. Khalil talking Adela, it's like those Russian nesting dolls,
(38:01):
you know, you open one and there's one bit of history,
and then like you find out that story has eleven
other stories inside of it. Yeah, well that's I think
that's part of the beauty of studying a place, is
that in real time, histories are complicated. Places are complicated,
and the people who make our lives meaningful to us
are also complicated. And I think that's what we want
(38:24):
to impart even in this conversation that we have every week.
God just like even thinking now that he has committed
all of this to memory, you know that this is
all sort of in his head and he's telling these
different histories. It's like, it's so incredibly impressive and powerful.
It's impressive and powerful, but it also speaks to a
bigger moment in time. I mean, in an age of misinformation,
(38:49):
he's still fact checking and doing research. He's still looking
at books, he's still going to the library. And I know,
for me, it's really important that people take facts seriously.
And I think he's modeling for everybody, even in the
age of misinformation and social media, how important it is
to to be grounded in facts and evidence and to
(39:13):
really see history as as a source of empowerment for everyone.
That's a great point that even though this is essentially online,
and that even if it's oral, that it is based
in fact. And you're saying that like to I want
to ask you this, like, does the way that Dylla
sees the positive in a history and raises the positive
(39:35):
above all else, does it change at all how you
think you want to tell history. No, um, it doesn't.
Meaning that I don't see my histories as as negative.
I see them as essential. And to Dylla's credit, I
think some of the stories that he's telling on TikTok
is also about the lives of people who have been
(39:56):
killed in gang violence or random by standard violence. And
I think giving those people a history of their own
personal lives, a biography, a story of who they are,
is not necessarily an uplifd story, but it is a
story that is important to give more dimension to the
context of people's lives. Yeah, I mean, I think for me,
(40:17):
I'm like that as well, that I'm sort of get
lost in the complexity of things. And you know, he
talks about the structural bullshit, you know, to like tell
those stories, but to also show that their effects are
not the totality of experience. I almost come to the
same point, but from the opposite side, you know, and
(40:39):
meet him somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly like moved
by him, Like I really, I really do listen to
him because it makes me. It makes me feel better
about my home. Yeah, and look, not for nothing, the
fact that he's telling these stories, which many of which
are uncovered and unheard of or buried in a book somewhere.
This is not just the story of how the first
(41:01):
skyscraper in Chicago was built. That's important. He's adding so
much more context to a very complicated city. And we
all shod be grateful for that, and I'm grateful that
he is now going to include us in that history
so well. Khalil love you, yeah, Man, I love you too,
and I'm grateful for you, all right, I'm grateful for you.
(41:28):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,
Gibron Mohammed and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced
by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris,
our engineer is Amanda k Juan, and our executive producer
is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to leitaal Mullad, Julia Barton,
(41:51):
Heather Faine, Carl Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weissberg.
Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the
brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely
want to check out his music at his website Avery R.
Young dot You can find Pushkin on all social platforms
(42:12):
at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our
newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you
like to listen. And if you like our show, please
give us a five star rating and a review and listen.
Even if you don't like it, give it a five
star rating and a review, and please tell all of
(42:33):
your best friends about it. Thank you, and listen. I
also owe Dilla a hot dog, you know, for being
on the show, and just because I want to. I
want to tell him how much I appreciate him, and
you know, in the same way that he shouted out
my book, I want to give him a shout out
that everyone should go and follow him, you know, on Instagram,
on Twitter TikTok. His handle is six figure Underscore Villa
(42:57):
at six Figga Underscore d I l LA it's music
even to say six figure Dilla rubb with Harry Back
Pushing. I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that
I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I
like football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,
I've had to live like this double life forever, like
I was cooler than I was, so I would be
sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and I
(00:36):
would be in my phone life researcher Who Charles Whacker is?
Because all day long I've been trying to figure out
why they call it Whacker Drive Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad
Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black,
one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And
this is some of my best friends are. Some of
(00:58):
my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show,
we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a
deeply divided and unequal country. And this week, the nation's
leading urban historian, on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla
Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is everything Dope comes
(01:19):
from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be
a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a
whole lot of history. Only I am really excited this
(01:39):
week about the conversation we're going to have with Sherman
Della Thomas. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, you and I
are constantly talking about this balance between like like stories
of tragedy and challenge and also like how do we
celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah? Yeah, this
is so central to everything we do and like even
even probably how we live of like you know, delving
(02:01):
into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I have
to live with having written a book Condemnation of Blackness,
which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive.
It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways,
like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even
if thinking about this of you know, what it means
to celebrate a place, what it means to be a
booster something is gained and also something is lost. But
(02:23):
here we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas,
who might be one of the most positive people about
Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah,
I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know
how how did you meet this guy. Man. I started
seeing his videos all over the place, you know, and
here he is like wearing white Sox gear or Bulls gear.
He's like holding his microphone to his mouth, and he
(02:46):
is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like the first
black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago. Did
I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard, you know.
And he actually reached out to me because he did
an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote this book
High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so we met
that way. And you know, he did this whole episode
about public housing in Chicago. Yeah. It's like I've seen
(03:10):
these in learning so much from them, and then they
blew up. They're all over the place. They're viral. I mean,
he has reportedly over four million views counting just from
last year. I mean, who knows how many more now.
And he's also started a bus company to take people
on actual tours of the city, Mahogany Tours. This is
(03:30):
a really incredible use of history, right, I mean, so
you're a historian, and this is history that is somehow
being lived and experienced outside of books. Even it's traveling
all over the place, and he's on the news here,
he's on television. He becomes a kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah, man,
I'm really excited to get to know this guy too,
because as a historian, it's not often the case that
(03:52):
one I learned things I didn't know about my own city,
and two that you get to use history in a
way that is empowering to people who live in a
city to think about their connection to folks who've come
before them and use that as a kind of inspiration
to say, hey, you know, I should be proud walking
there because other people have done amazing things who've come
before me. Yeah. Yeah, And for me, I want to know, like,
(04:14):
can you both extol a place and also tell about
its really complicated, difficult parts at the same time. So
let's hear from Dillah. Let's go talk to them, all right,
Sherman Dillah Thomas, welcome to some of my best friends.
(04:35):
Are Yes, thank you, thank you, brother Ben for having me.
Brother Muhammad truly alan to be here. Oh man, man,
I mean you we're Chicagoans, and we're Southsiders, and you
are Chicago's favorite urban historian. That's right, the man, the
myth legend. We are super excited about this, and this
is the first time in the history if some of
(04:55):
my best friends are we have both been referred to
as brother. I mean, I'm used to brother Muhammad. I
mean that, you know, that kind of goes with territory.
But we didn't get a twofer until now. We're so
excited to talk with you. You are the TikTok history
lessons King. It's amazing what you're doing. Before we get
to that, though, you go by the name Dillah, Right,
what's that about? My mother was calling me serm dealer
(05:19):
like d E A L e R. Got it. She
used to say that. I reminded her the used car
dealers on Western knew I could get right. I could
get her to buy any any jump ever, and we
all knew better. Western Avenue is a street in Chicago
where as soon as you get fifteen hundred dollars as
of kids, you go there to buy your used car
and it's gonna break as soon as you get home.
Everybody's car does, but we do it anyway. And so
(05:42):
that was that like her thing for me, and the
kid's heard scherm dealer and just start calling me Dilla, right,
you know. So that's so that's where that comes from, Della.
I love it. So I know Ben knows you a
little better than I do. So when did you get started, Dila?
And I know your your daughter was inspiration, but just
for my purposes, tell me, tell me exactly when you
got started. I got started right out of November of
(06:04):
twenty twenty. Okay. We were all in the house, yeah,
and then stuck in the house with pandemic. You know,
we're all on lockdown. And my daughter wanted to do
TikTok's and the family told her, no, what's up with that?
That's me. She was eight, right, and they thought that
eight was a little too young to be on an
app by yourself. So I later like just downloaded on
(06:26):
my phone and you know, and anybody looking TikTok a
little heart out right and um and then but also
I kind of figured i'd be a good way for
me to just see what she's engaging in, right, you know,
And so we did that. First she wanted to watch,
then she wanted to dance, and because you know, I'm
not the best dancer, we were doing like those little
daddy daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself, the
(06:49):
same thing, covid times a little little Daddy Daughter mix
mixtape on TikTok. Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids.
And what happened was we did one of her friend
did the same. One of her friend got like two
thousand views and we got like sixty. You suck. This
is all you. You can't oh man, Like oh not
(07:11):
just that, but like she she took like a self
esteem wall, like why why her over me? And just
so many things. Right, So I was like, you know,
I know Chicago history, baby, let me let me feed
you some lines. That has to be the corniest intervention
I've ever heard in my life. Let me do history
on your TikTok. That is gonna blow your spot up, baby.
(07:32):
I think the first one I did was like maybe
telling how Chicago created the time zones for the country. Okay,
we gotta hear that. Let's play that clip. Do you
ever wonder why California's two hours behind Chicago or New
York to an hour ahead? Well, it's because right here
in Chicago we set up the time zones for the country.
And it got more views than the lad than what
(07:54):
her and I did, and then so she said, do
another one and let me stand next to you. Right,
She just wanted to stand there, and then we did,
and then that one get views and then you just
started rolling. I just started rolling. You know, have you
always been a history buff? Did you always study? Yeah,
that's what I was thinking, Ben, good question. I was
thinking the exact same thing. I've always been in history buff.
I didn't study history. My dad was a Chicago policeman
(08:16):
for thirty two years and he got hired on October
nineteen sixty nine. So that's the pedigree I come from.
And you know, they talk history in squire cards. They
talk history amongst each other, and then they took their
kids to work with them, right, Yeah, Can I ask
you one question? Though? They'll about about your dad and
(08:36):
going and going up to work with them, because I
never really thought about a kid going to work with
their father who's a police officer. I used to go
to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist for
a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were you
putting like little bullets in the revolver to make sure
Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No,
I'm not quite, you know, really just sit down, shut
(08:59):
up and listen. Just a lot of that was just
security detail, because I know part of what it's in
your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually
worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was
Chicago's first black mayor elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah. Yeah,
(09:20):
he worked at security detail. He worked here mostly US detail.
He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what
I'm saying that particular time frame, right as black politicians
are making this you know, surge, they are picking their
own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had
started off as an Afro American Patrolman's league. Now they
(09:40):
called the African American Police League, but it was like
a union inside of the union. It's the reason why
they're black sergeists, is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right.
They sued the city and got that famous injunction to
change the entry exams for both fire and police department
as as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us a
TikTok history lesson about the Afroma. That's just like it's
(10:02):
coming out of your pores. It started off as an
Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was. It was
a star about Renaut Robinson, Howard Sappho, And what it
was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white
cop could wear a cross to work because it's considered
a religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black
power movement was coming into effect, right, going into the
(10:24):
nineteen seventies, Right, we're Afros, we were proud, and so
black officers would want to wear an unc, which is
also considered a religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions, right,
but comic meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's
spelled on a n k H. It's a type of
cross that we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning
(10:45):
Egyptian related. Absolutely, And black officers would get suspended for
wearing their aunts, but white officers would not get suspended
for wearing their crosses, right uh. And so those are
the things that activated the Afros founded as the Afro
American Police League to fight back. Like I said, you
could see your brother being harassed by white cops. You're
(11:05):
a cop, your brother in blue, your brother, your blood brother,
and so you can see your bin, you can see
your brother getting harrass your black dude. You see your
brother getting her ass back. Cops, you pull up, Hey, guys,
I'm a cop. Show your badge. Right, that cop would
get suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right,
the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody
(11:27):
being harassed by a white cop all the time. So
that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah,
it's an amazing I mean even telling that story because
you're celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the
work that your father did working in it, and the
very reason for its founding is that cops needed to
fight racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks.
(11:49):
I wanted to just say, just as a matter of
like political history, you mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who
is the first black female senator in the history of
the nation, and she's only the second black senator at
any point after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip
of Carol Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run
for senator. All over the state feeling about this candidacy
(12:10):
is electric, and it's electric precisely because people know that
we make that this is a watershed election and that
it's time for a change. It's time for change in Illinois,
it's time for change in this country. I say that
to say that, like, that's a really big political moment
for you to be like as a kid on the
lap of your father who's directly connected to these people,
(12:32):
that that, for my purposes, that makes you an eyewitness
to history. I'll rock your your educational brain even more. Right.
I think the reason why they let me stay in
the room because when she was making I remember it
like it was yesterday. We were at Sherman Park. This
was like July doing that one of those votes for
me campaign things, right, yeah, on the south side, yes, sir.
(12:52):
And so she had like a campaign riley thing at
Sherman Park and she was sitting in the front. My
dad was driving another car. Cop was sitting next to me.
And this was the Peewee Little League Championship. And I
chose to go my dad and play in the Peewee
Little League Championship. But I remember the conversation she said,
you know, they were like, can you believe you're getting
(13:13):
ready to be the first woman ever, first black woman ever?
US Senator and then the same thing you said. They
mentioned reconstruction, and then she said, well, that's the Chicago thing.
The priest was first to go to Congress since reconstruction too, right,
And I'm you know, ten to eleven or something like that,
but I couldn't wait to use it the next time
I was around my dad people. Yeah, so that's that's
(13:38):
a really strong impression, both in terms of like seeing
this person who you know, is larger than life in
terms of her political achievements, and at the same time,
like getting these history lessons from this same person. That's
pretty incredible. I don't think right now, I'm probably like
that is a Dopus hill, right. You just feel like
(13:59):
I didn't have all those thoughts there. That was I
promised I did not, even most recently, right, Like I
just wanted to be around my podcast, you know. That
was that was because he was a cop. He wasn't
really home a lot, especially young ages. You know, I
don't remember him at all six seven, eight years old.
I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated
(14:22):
because I was like, he for sure, that's the way
to get them some quality time. Man, he would like
to work the next day Yeah, he got shot in
his hand and they wrapped sold it up whatever, and
he went back the next I was so pissed off.
It must not have been a shooting hand though. Right,
(14:44):
that's hilarious. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break.
When we come back, we'll dig into more Chicago history
stories from Della. All Right, we are back talking to
(15:08):
Sherman Della Thomas, the Chicago booster and oral historian. So, Dillah,
one of your tag lines is everything dope comes from Chicago.
You're like one of Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city.
And maybe, just like you know, tell us something dope
that came from Chicago that would surprise us. Give us
one of these little history lessons. The Fireman's pole, I
(15:31):
think surprises most people. The Fireman's pole, like its use
is sliding down. The pole comes from Chicago. It's about
eighteen seventy four, is eighteen seventy five and coming out
of reconstruction in Chicago has created and all black fire
engine is Engine twenty one the land by a white captain,
but it's you know, twelve fourteen brothers that fight fires
(15:51):
in its growing black neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting
a half. We've ever been in the fire station, you'll
notice that it has spiral stairs, and every fire station
in the world has spiral stairs. And next to it
is where the pole is. The reason why the stairs
of spirals because we used to fight fires with horses.
The horses used to walk up the stairs and eat
all the hay, and then you be looking for the
(16:13):
horse and he up that sleep, right, So they created
the spiral stairs so the horse couldn't get up there.
And the next two it was they had the pole
for the hay loft, right, so the hay is kept
up in the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right,
Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up
high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And
then it was held in place with a pole. And
(16:34):
then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed hey,
you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops
down now where you ain't got to go all the
way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for
firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was just
a letter. But you know who we don't talk about
enough in Chicago is the captain that like the sad
of his name is Captain Coolly Duan. He was a
hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one and
(16:56):
when he's seen the black guys slid down that hay pole,
he's the guy that was like, yeah, that's gans go
ahead and send it, so y'all don't get splinters. And
this is how we will respond from here on out. So, Dylan,
I'm listening to you, and like, you know, Khalil and
I or both, you know, we both write books, we
both do tons of research. We both write about Chicago,
Like how do you get all this information? Like how
(17:17):
were you? What kind of research do you do? And
also like damn man, like you got this all off
the Dome's what's up? Like you remember all this? Jay
Z ruined my life? So let's start there. I remember
that that famous interview he did where he was like,
I don't write, and it was like what And he
was like, you know, I just say my rhymes and
myself over and over and by the time I get
(17:37):
back to the house, I don't need to write them
down right, it becomes an exercise. I went to Eastern
Illinois University major in English and African American studies and
probably wrote three papers because I would always say, let
me give it to you orally. Right. So when when
people read say like your book High Rises, right, like,
oh oh man, good look at it. Yeah, I jacked
so much stuff out of that book, then better than that,
(18:01):
I immediately want to read the stuff that you sourced
from right right, you know, and though those are the
cheats that I think people people forget about, right, we
want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources. A
lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in that
in that way, right, you gotta like dogging. So you're
just you're reading all the time and going to the
(18:22):
library and picking up books. I mean you're like just
he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading. That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm
a nerd. Right, I don't gotta think like I like
football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,
I've had to live like this double life forever. Like
I was way cooler than I was. So I would
be sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's cheering, and
(18:43):
I would be on my phone, like researching who Charles
Whacker is, because all day long I've been trying to
figure out why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, So,
like researching is my pastime, you know what I mean,
Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate
on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing,
and then out of that you get so many you know,
(19:04):
bread crumbs and those type of things. So that's just
how I passed the time. I mentioned my book High Risers,
which is about Cabrini Green, a public housing complex sens
in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for a
lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you do
is that this was a place that was demonized because
of its poverty and also violence. And you did a
TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok machine
(19:28):
and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the history
of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to give
it a try. And that the stories there were much
more complex and many many lives that needed to be
you know, and many stories that needed to be told
that weren't being covered. But you did do a TikTok
about Cabrini Green, and when you posted it and mentioned
my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah, yeah, right.
(19:51):
I gotta believe the one I got to receist because
at least a dozen people. I didn't just post your book,
I said, buy this book. Man, that is great. We
got to hear that clip. Despite it, all the residents
of Gabrini Green had a great sense of community by
this book. I think the TikTok with the first posting
got like maybe one hundred thirty thousand views. How much
(20:13):
you're paying for a commercial for one hundred and thirty
thousand people. So I'll get you a hot dog if
you could, If you could tell us what is the
history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know, no
one knows that it's such a wives tell sort of thing, right,
the no catchup. The best that I can find is
that there are already so many ingredients on it that
(20:33):
you don't you don't need to catch up, right, I
tell you the origin of like Italian beef. I love
telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story.
So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods
are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef
because you know that deep dish pizza. I'm not really
into that. Italian beef comes from how we used to
(20:54):
Italian grannies give us Italian beefs. Right. The Italians were
like the last arriving immigrants to Chicago at that moment,
and when they used to walk into the butcher, that
was discriminated again. So you know, if you're a Yankee Protestant, right,
they would sell you the surloin of the t bone.
But you were dark and complected Irish lady, I mean
Italian lady, you had to buy the rump ros, right,
that's what they would sell to you. So the cow,
(21:18):
the chitlands of the cow, right, And that's not a
very tender cut of meat. Yeah, that's not a great
advertise in the first Italian beach, it's not at all right,
but this is what but see, that's the beauty about Chicago.
Out of discrimination comes amazing shit. Right, Because she was
discriminating in the butchers, what did she do? She's like, Okay,
I ain't gonna worry about it. I'm gonna put it
in a slow cooker and when my husband leaves out
for work, I'll turn it on and by the time
(21:39):
he gets from work, I'll turn it off. And anything
you cook for fucking eight hours is going to be
the most tender thing, right, And what's the cheat? The
cheat is the bread. And it don't take anything, especially
if you're making homemade bread. Right, little flower, little doe,
a little whatever, right, you make amazing bread. She took that.
Then eight hour cut roast the rump right and thinly
(22:00):
sliced it and fair. The kids say a little bit
for his lunch, right, And then every day more and
more people are like, throw they lunch away and start
asking Broth for some of his sandwiches because they was
really really juicy and tender because they cooked all day.
And he started selling so many of his lunch sandwiches
he quit his job. And you know, Al's beef right,
Like damn man, if you got to be careful asking
(22:20):
you a question, it is like it opens one door
and then another and then another. You just like, go ahead, Khalil, Well,
I'm curious, So do you have any inspirations role models
people who you have now begun to model yourself, now
that you've become basically the most famous Chicago historian. I mean,
at this point you own that title. Thank you. Send
(22:42):
this clip to the city so that they can make
me the official culture historian. I'm definitely chasing the legacy
of Tamil Black. There we go. Yeah, wow, Tamil Black.
Let me just say so. He died one year ago
at age one hundred and two, and he was I'd
say Chicago's greatest historian and lived Chicago history, you know,
(23:03):
moving here from the South, being a civil rights leader,
schooling Barack Obama. You know you are living his legacy.
Tell us more about him. He moved to Chicago a
couple of months after the race riot in nineteen nineteen.
He was an infant. He's a gentleman that invited Doctor
King speaked in Chicago for the first time, right because
he was already a civil rights activist, right, Yeah, absolutely,
(23:25):
He's a World War two veteran. He was at DuSable
with Red Fox, nattem Co, Dinah Washington, Harold Washable as
a high school here on the South Side, Second Black
High School, second high school constructive for African Americans in
the city's history on the South Side. Man, I love
all that I love. Tamio Black is amazing. I had
(23:45):
the great honor of interviewing him a couple of times.
You know, he is a Chicago booster, and you know,
so are you. And I want to talk more about
this idea of what it means to be so positive
about the city. Was so positive about Chicago, because this
is something this is something I actually think about all
the time. Della and Khalil. You don't only think about it,
(24:06):
You really obsess over this question because so much of
your work is about pushing back against stereotypes. I'm talking
to you Ben about like the crime and the violence
and all of that. Yeah, and at the same time, right, so,
I'm writing about criminal justice issues, I'm writing about poverty
and segregation in Chicago. I'm writing about what the reality
of Chicago. And it's also like we're getting all these
(24:29):
messages about Chicago which are or extreme, you know, whether
it's like this hell hole or whether it's you know, Iraq,
when that movie came out, you were so pissed. Those
are just abstractions. It's like just just the worst stuff
exists in isolation without anything else. But the bad stuff
really is there too, like and so so the struggle
(24:52):
is like to address these real issues because it's important
to grapple with them, to wrestle with them, because otherwise
we can't we can't change them. How do we do both?
The example I use when I get asked this particular
type of question, I really feel like I'm preaching to
the choired, especially talking to you, brother, being is like,
my daughter has asthma. We probably on our way to
(25:13):
like go get a breathing treatment tomorrow, the way that
her asthma is going to date, right, thank you, brother,
So I understand wanting to deal with the symptoms that
are in front of me right now, right when she
gets the coffin she has a running nose. I want
to give her a house. I wanted to blow a nose.
I want to get to dehumidified in her room. Right.
But you know, if that's all I ever do each
(25:35):
time she gets sick, she's gonna keep getting sick every
now and again. I got to go in the basement
and check the filters, right, I gotta see what's blowing
through this house that's making her sick. Beyond that, right,
I might have to get a plumber in because her
room is by the bathroom to check the wet wall
and see, right, if there's mold behind the walls that
we can't see. What's my long winded point When we
talk about the people that got shot and the people
(25:58):
that got killed, I'm I hate that they got killed.
I hate that they got shot. I think that that
needs attention. But like that's where the stat starts and stops, right,
and we don't mention that the three people that got
killed are involved in the STL versus Old Block war
that started because Ram Emmanuel closed fifty schools and so
(26:18):
three kids had to cross Kane Drive where formerly those
kids never cross Kane Drive to go to school. Then
one of them got you know what I mean, like
spell that shit all the way out right, and then
talk about how it always always always goes back to
some kind of systemic bullshit. You know what. We usually
call it structural racism, but I like just systemic bullshit better.
That is from the heroin out ben rest of the seasons,
(26:40):
just systemic bullshit. We are back on. Some of my
best friends are with Sherman Della Thomas. It seems to
(27:03):
me what you're saying is that the structural bullshit has
to be addressed also by how people see themselves in
the history of the place they live in, that all
these stories you're telling are a way of empowering young people,
especially that you should have pride of place, that a
lot of people did a lot of wonderful things here,
and people have been fighting for justice here. You don't
(27:24):
have to do this alone. You have this this inspiration,
and I'm going to tell you these stories. And guess what,
it's not just a couple of stories. And it's not
just black history, mother man. It is fucking TikTok. Every
day I get that right, every day? You know, they go,
these kids to go to Irvin Mollison Elementary which is
on forty fifth and King Drive on the south side
of Chicago. Whenever I come across the kid to go
(27:45):
to Mollison, I asked them who is Irvin Mollison? They
can never tell me. But then I say, have you
ever read A Raisin in the Sun? Right? And they say, oh, yeah,
right with Lorraine Hansbury. Okay, Well, it was Earl Dickerson
and Irvin Mollison that were his lawyers that took that
case to the Supreme Court that opened up woodline right
that it allowed for that eventually emman Till's mom and
(28:06):
everybody else starts to move into into Woodline. It's because
of Irvan Morlinson Earl B. Dickerson. Wow, there's so much
history you've packed in there. I mean, this is why
you're so amazing. You know, everyone, including my own kids,
have read Lorraine Hansberry's classic work, A Raising in the Sun.
And if people haven't read it, they might have seen
the movie starring Sydney Potier. And to know that the
(28:29):
people who were responsible for helping that black family, her
black family move into Woodlawn and to help ultimately to
bring down restrictive covenants, one of the main ways in
which black people were segregated all across the country, including
places like Chicago. That's a lot of important history you're
talking about. Man, Why aren't the people that go you
(28:49):
should as soon as you walk into Irvan Morleson, it
should be a sign. You should have to read it
every day to graduate kindergarten. Then you should have to
recite it by heart to graduate out of eighth grade, right,
and then then you know what I mean. But yeah,
and it's and it's kind of crazy and insane that
kids who go to Mollison Elementary don't know that history,
don't know the story of that civil rights struggle, that's
their history. And so your your tiktoks are both addressing
(29:13):
things that we should feel pride and and but there
they are addressing these systemic bullshit problems. Yeah, for sure, Right,
if you're traveling anywhere in the world, you're gonna walk
back somebody with cubs had or a sock's head or
a bear's head, and then y'all gonna make this act
contact with each other, right and give each other that
head now. And they don't matter what ethnicity they are.
If y'all out of town, y'all both from Chicago, it's
gonna be an acknowledgement. Right, TikTok allows for that to happen.
(29:36):
I don't see the head not back, right, but when
they when they get the video and they see me,
they're able to give that Chicago head nod. But it
also sounds like you have a huge audience outside of Chicago.
And if that's true, what do you think appeals to
people who are not actually Chicagoans? I think think the truth, Right,
there's a natural Chicago curiosity, La curiosity, New York curiosity,
(30:00):
and hearing bullcrap sometimes sounds like bullcrap and so and
when you mean bullcrap of like vilifying the city, of
saying the city is a war zone, of saying that
it's like did you if you go in there, you're
gonna get shot? Like it's dangerous everywhere you go. Yep,
absolutely well. Last year, right, I announced that we want
best Big City for five years running about Kande nassas
(30:20):
Reader's Choice. It's a national platform, righty, Chicago is ain't
sitting around feeling out that survey. Right people coming to
Chicago's filing out that survey. And it's true, We're an
amazing city. I believe it was Northwestern that did a
study that says it was like really really telling too,
like ninety two percent of all people who get shot
(30:40):
in Chicago had a ninety five percent probability of getting
shot in Chicago based off of the lifestyle that they
were living, right. And So what that makes me want
to talk about is the other two point five million
of us who are outside of that number, who day
by day don't get shot, right, who the probability says
we aren't going to get shot because of the amazing things,
(31:02):
but just the culture and the sustainability of our City.
Global warming is real, the same way that everybody's beating
up on Chicago. Now in fifty years, we're going to
be right back over crowded just because of Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, I'm still struggling with this idea of what
it means to be a booster for a place. And
I actually follow you because it gives me. It makes
(31:24):
me feel good about my home. And I'm hearing things
I want to hear, and I'm also walking the streets
on the South Side and you know, a car suddenly
zooms up and the first thought that is in my
head is like, there's about to be a car jacking,
because its actually been like two or three on the block,
like not like imaginary stuff, real stuff. And when there's
a shooting at the school two blocks for me where
(31:47):
parents are pulling their kids out, and I've got neighbors
who want to move, Like, it's not just that five
percent that got shot. It's also like all the residual
effects of all this stuff, which is real, as you know.
And like what you're really talking about is fear. This fear,
a sense of like how do you even rationally deal
with danger? I mean, you were talking about your father
being on the Chicago Police Department for thirty years and
(32:08):
you obviously you saw a lot firsthand, and you feel
great pride in what he did, like even personally, how
do you tell his story and celebrate what he did
and also tell the story of abusive policing that's also
part of the story of Chicago. You just tell it.
You know, it's gonna have a little bias in it
(32:29):
because I'm a Chicago and right with my perspective is black,
So maybe I'm slightly rooting for the black guy in
the story a little more. I just I try to
just have a very objective perspective about the stories that
I'm telling, and I think because of the intersectionalities of
my life, it makes it makes me uniquely able to
do it right, you know. Can you give an example? Yeah? Absolutely.
(32:51):
There was nothing better for me than to just watch.
He taught me how to tie a tie at four,
and so I would tie his ties when he put
in his uniform on and I was standing there and
wait to hand it to him, so he just pull
it around his neck. And just seeing him put that
badge on, right, seeing him put his gun in his
host that it gave me, and he was a superhero
to you. Your father was a superhero to you, and
(33:13):
just not just he made police superheroes to me. Right,
And then it could be hours later. I'm at the
rink on eighty seven Street on the South Side with
my friends and the cop and say hey, move and
I don't move fast enough, and I got a na
miller met at my head. Right, it didn't even get
enough time to register your acts and me to walk away. Man,
(33:33):
that's crazy. So a cop put a gun to your
head for what And you're not saying a hypothetical, You're
talking about something. This is one thousand percent what happened
to me. This is a thousand percent what happened to me.
I was chilling. I just got my license. This is
not a hypothetical, right, like I did all the time,
handed him his tie to go to work and you know,
to have a great day dad, and still felt that
(33:54):
pride that I had been filling my whole life. And
so both of those are true at the same time
at the same time. Man, And it's it's those It's
so many stars. I come across them all the time.
I'm only emphasizing how incredible this brother storytelling is I
mean he is. He is telling stories that people ought
to know. This isn't just a Chicago story. These are
national stories. That's the other thing about messaging. And I
(34:16):
think that's our problem as a city, right. You know
the people who work in city hall, right, whoever does
our advertising our messaging stinks. This is the worst. Right.
So one last question, Della, one last question for you.
You're celebrating all these amazing Chicago things. Everything dope comes
from Chicago. So Khalil and I are from Chicago. Yeah, man,
(34:36):
we want to be celebrated, right, Like you know, when
you do the TikTok about us, we're making history. A
white guy and a black guy getting together. You know,
he broke the color line of podcasts. You know, when
you do the TikTok about us, what's the hook gonna be?
Let's see who I'm gonna compare you guys too. I
think I will make the comparisons. You'll be Julius rosenwall right.
(35:02):
Sears the founder of Sears Roebuck Company. So he's the
reason why you know what Sears and Roebuck Company is today.
And he took over as president. They were at about
two hundred thousand a year, and when he left to
pursue philanthropy totally, they were like at two hundred million
a year. And this is nineteen twenties money, all right,
So not the founder. He just built the company into something,
(35:24):
built the company out right. He's also he created two
thousand high schools in the South. John Lewis graduated from
a rosen Water school to name the google as soon
as you hear this podcast right now, Julius Roads and
Wall Ben that's a lot, man. So I'm like, damn, well,
what's left so that that would be being And then
I think you, brother Muhammed, you'd be Carter G. Woodson man.
(35:44):
You know, such grad school, the University of Chicago holding
shop at the Wall bash YMCA, which is on the
South side, is the birthplace a Black History Month, all
of the lectures. Right, He personally, you know, schooled so
many people. He got Archibald Motley to continue to paint, right,
(36:05):
that's right, one of the Renaissance painters. He was. He
was in Chicago at such a pivotal time teaching organizational
skills and eventually right they found the Chicago urinly they
get the Chicago branch of the NAACP. But it's a
lot to do with people who were as students of
him while he was a student, right, you know, so
(36:27):
that that that'd be YouTube, got it? Got it? I
appreciate that. So Ben, Ben's the philanthropist. So Ben, I
need some money, man, I need I need you to
fund my next research project. You know, when this serious
thing blows up, I got you. I just need this.
I just need this serious thing to blow out. You
are doing so much, not just for Chicago, but for
(36:48):
lifting up the stories of our past that we need
to know, the good, the bad, the ugly. You're reminding
us that for some of us, we come from greatness,
meaning that you know, people have sacrificed on our behalf
to pave the way for others. And I just so
appreciate how much you are doing in that city and
for your community, and especially for those beutiful daughters of
(37:10):
yours and listen, and you're also you're also showing a
love for learning, which is infectious, and you know we're
feeling it, and I think you know everyone else who
is listening to you is as well. Thank you, all right,
thank you very much. I was humble when I got
the request. I really, I really am. I appreciate both
of you guys in the work that you're doing, the
legacy you both carries. Like I say, I still think
(37:33):
being sort of ows being a hot dog, he said,
at least ten books do I definitely do now now now,
after this show one hundred percent or you're a hot dog.
Thank you guys. Hey man, you're now one of our
best friends, so I hope you'll you'll come back and
join us at some point again. All right, man, thank you,
thank you. Khalil talking Adela, it's like those Russian nesting dolls,
(38:01):
you know, you open one and there's one bit of history,
and then like you find out that story has eleven
other stories inside of it. Yeah, well that's I think
that's part of the beauty of studying a place, is
that in real time, histories are complicated. Places are complicated,
and the people who make our lives meaningful to us
are also complicated. And I think that's what we want
(38:24):
to impart even in this conversation that we have every week.
God just like even thinking now that he has committed
all of this to memory, you know that this is
all sort of in his head and he's telling these
different histories. It's like, it's so incredibly impressive and powerful.
It's impressive and powerful, but it also speaks to a
bigger moment in time. I mean, in an age of misinformation,
(38:49):
he's still fact checking and doing research. He's still looking
at books, he's still going to the library. And I know,
for me, it's really important that people take facts seriously.
And I think he's modeling for everybody, even in the
age of misinformation and social media, how important it is
to to be grounded in facts and evidence and to
(39:13):
really see history as as a source of empowerment for everyone.
That's a great point that even though this is essentially online,
and that even if it's oral, that it is based
in fact. And you're saying that like to I want
to ask you this, like, does the way that Dylla
sees the positive in a history and raises the positive
(39:35):
above all else, does it change at all how you
think you want to tell history. No, um, it doesn't.
Meaning that I don't see my histories as as negative.
I see them as essential. And to Dylla's credit, I
think some of the stories that he's telling on TikTok
is also about the lives of people who have been
(39:56):
killed in gang violence or random by standard violence. And
I think giving those people a history of their own
personal lives, a biography, a story of who they are,
is not necessarily an uplifd story, but it is a
story that is important to give more dimension to the
context of people's lives. Yeah, I mean, I think for me,
(40:17):
I'm like that as well, that I'm sort of get
lost in the complexity of things. And you know, he
talks about the structural bullshit, you know, to like tell
those stories, but to also show that their effects are
not the totality of experience. I almost come to the
same point, but from the opposite side, you know, and
(40:39):
meet him somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly like moved
by him, Like I really, I really do listen to
him because it makes me. It makes me feel better
about my home. Yeah, and look, not for nothing, the
fact that he's telling these stories, which many of which
are uncovered and unheard of or buried in a book somewhere.
This is not just the story of how the first
(41:01):
skyscraper in Chicago was built. That's important. He's adding so
much more context to a very complicated city. And we
all shod be grateful for that, and I'm grateful that
he is now going to include us in that history
so well. Khalil love you, yeah, Man, I love you too,
and I'm grateful for you, all right, I'm grateful for you.
(41:28):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,
Gibron Mohammed and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced
by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris,
our engineer is Amanda k Juan, and our executive producer
is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to leitaal Mullad, Julia Barton,
(41:51):
Heather Faine, Carl Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weissberg.
Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the
brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely
want to check out his music at his website Avery R.
Young dot You can find Pushkin on all social platforms
(42:12):
at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our
newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you
like to listen. And if you like our show, please
give us a five star rating and a review and listen.
Even if you don't like it, give it a five
star rating and a review, and please tell all of
(42:33):
your best friends about it. Thank you, and listen. I
also owe Dilla a hot dog, you know, for being
on the show, and just because I want to. I
want to tell him how much I appreciate him, and
you know, in the same way that he shouted out
my book, I want to give him a shout out
that everyone should go and follow him, you know, on Instagram,
on Twitter TikTok. His handle is six figure Underscore Villa
(42:57):
at six Figga Underscore d I l LA it's music
even to say six figure Dilla rubb with Harry Back
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